On January 27 2024 05:41 jy_9876543210 wrote:
top 5 innovation dark maru serral rogue incoming?
top 5 innovation dark maru serral rogue incoming?
Disagree
Forum Index > SC2 General |
yezzir88
31 Posts
On January 27 2024 05:41 jy_9876543210 wrote: top 5 innovation dark maru serral rogue incoming? Disagree | ||
Locutos
Brazil187 Posts
4th Innovation 3rd Rogue 2nd Maru 1st Kelazh.. i mean, Serral | ||
Locutos
Brazil187 Posts
On January 30 2024 04:41 SharkStarcraft wrote: Show nested quote + On January 29 2024 09:21 Blargh wrote: On January 29 2024 07:50 Balnazza wrote: On January 29 2024 05:15 Charoisaur wrote: On January 29 2024 05:08 Balnazza wrote: On January 29 2024 03:56 Lil_nooblet wrote: On January 29 2024 03:23 Balnazza wrote: On January 29 2024 02:50 spirit76 wrote: On January 28 2024 20:07 yubo56 wrote: On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote: I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on. maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke. Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s??? "Much stronger" was a bit optimistic, but in the end, Reynor is a world champion and has more Premier wins, while also being active in a more competitive timeframe. Wait what?? When Mvp was playing there were hundreds of pro players, young and motivated, practicing all day in teamhouses with coaches and analysts. During Reynor's timeframe there were/are maybe 30 serious progamers practicing from home Mvp mostly accomplished his feats in the pre-Kespa/Proleague era, when the game was fresh and people tried to figure it out. He had one good year and was basically done afterwards. Reynor is now in the top 5 of the world for years, top 10 easily by 5+ years. He won his World Championship in a tournament in which all three of the usual GOAT-Contenders were present, beating one of them (Maru) in the process, while also winning against the biggest Challenger (Dark) and probably the best Protoss (Zest) of all time. That tournament alone is far more impressive than Mvp's GSLs, won against players you probably wouldn't even put into a Top 50...or when exactly do TOP, MarineKing and Squirtle come in your personal list of the best players of all time? And shocker, Poopi overvalues a korean terran while giving the "so imbalaced"-theme another spin. Reynor is literally one of only four players who created that "zerg era". Seeing how in Mvp's year the entire finalist-board of GSL is basically terran blue, you could make the argument that terran was just OP that year, but who would ever claim that, huh? I really don't think this is true. Reynor's win is impressive, but the current era of SC2 is laughable in terms of competitiveness. I'd say anything past 2018 is vastly inferior to pre-2018. Post-pandemic? Even worse. Now there are literally only 16 Koreans who can even be considered "professional" SC2 players. I would say that any achievements in the last 3 years should be valued at close to 1/3 as much as before. You can just look at the effort players put in and it's laughable in comparison to how it was in 2011-2016. Players would be practicing all day, have teams and coaches all working their asses off, with a field of players roughly 3x larger. I'd even say that Top 4 of GSL 2012 was more impressive than winning the global finals in 2018-2023. Sure, Reynor plays better than any player from 2016 did, but the strength and accomplishment of a player is always relative to the state of the competition at the time. In 10 years, there's probably going to be some player who has stuck with SC2 for all 10 years winning everything despite the scene being dead, and you'll be calling them the GOAT for winning the most tournaments out of any player ever. I don't even feel like Maru or Dark try any more. You can see it in their play. No one is invested in the game the same way people were before. Basically no one has that burning fire in their heart to win it all. Sure, people want to win because money is good to have. But it's not what it was. Players were so invested back in the early days of GSL. Players literally gave up all of their home life, gave up good jobs, lived in grody team houses, just so they could be the best. No one does that now. great points, i share these opinions. People writing off MVP's accomplishments either forgot or were not around how incredibly competitive GSL and SC2 in general used to be. Hundreds of players dedicating their lives to the game tried day and night to figure out the next best strategy and hone their skills. Sure the game wasn't figured out, so what?? Is Pelé not one of the football GOATs because he maybe wouldn't fit into Pep Guardiola's modern setup?? IMO MVP>>>>>>Dark But still, Dark > Rain, TY, soO, so... i don't know where that leaves us Watch Pelé Eterno, and come to the conclusion that Pelé would be on Guardiola's team. | ||
Locutos
Brazil187 Posts
The Top 11- Top 20 would be much more fun to make. Trying to compare the likes of Stephano, Parting, MC, Taeja, Reynor, Clem, Solar, Nestea etc | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20922 Posts
On January 31 2024 06:52 Locutos wrote: I honestly think that the Top 10 list for GOAT is boring. The Top 11- Top 20 would be much more fun to make. Trying to compare the likes of Stephano, Parting, MC, Taeja, Reynor, Clem, Solar, Nestea etc By Parting you mean Trap right? | ||
Pandain
United States12914 Posts
On January 31 2024 06:52 Locutos wrote: I honestly think that the Top 10 list for GOAT is boring. The Top 11- Top 20 would be much more fun to make. Trying to compare the likes of Stephano, Parting, MC, Taeja, Reynor, Clem, Solar, Nestea etc Here is an extremely fun question: Who is the greater foreigner - Clem or Oliveira? | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20922 Posts
On January 31 2024 06:57 Pandain wrote: Show nested quote + On January 31 2024 06:52 Locutos wrote: I honestly think that the Top 10 list for GOAT is boring. The Top 11- Top 20 would be much more fun to make. Trying to compare the likes of Stephano, Parting, MC, Taeja, Reynor, Clem, Solar, Nestea etc Here is an extremely fun question: Who is the greater foreigner - Clem or Oliveira? Clam, and it’s not even that close. Oliveira is like that relative frequent occurrence of some 100-150 ranked player winning a golf major when they catch fire for a few rounds. Still very damn impressive but it doesn’t immediately elevate them into the elite, they’re still just an average pro (still incredible by regular standards) who had a great tournament. I’m actually surprised that really, aside from Oliveira we’ve rarely had many rank outsiders have a great weekend and take the WC, it’s almost always somebody who’d be considered among the contenders going in. $o$ first time maybe, but then he subsequently established elite credentials. | ||
yht9657
1810 Posts
On January 31 2024 08:07 WombaT wrote: Show nested quote + On January 31 2024 06:57 Pandain wrote: On January 31 2024 06:52 Locutos wrote: I honestly think that the Top 10 list for GOAT is boring. The Top 11- Top 20 would be much more fun to make. Trying to compare the likes of Stephano, Parting, MC, Taeja, Reynor, Clem, Solar, Nestea etc Here is an extremely fun question: Who is the greater foreigner - Clem or Oliveira? Clam, and it’s not even that close. Oliveira is like that relative frequent occurrence of some 100-150 ranked player winning a golf major when they catch fire for a few rounds. Still very damn impressive but it doesn’t immediately elevate them into the elite, they’re still just an average pro (still incredible by regular standards) who had a great tournament. I’m actually surprised that really, aside from Oliveira we’ve rarely had many rank outsiders have a great weekend and take the WC, it’s almost always somebody who’d be considered among the contenders going in. $o$ first time maybe, but then he subsequently established elite credentials. I don't know mate but Oliveira does have more world championships than Clem Maru and Innovation combined ain't that a strong argument? /s | ||
Locutus_
Brazil65 Posts
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Nakajin
Canada8838 Posts
On January 31 2024 08:07 WombaT wrote: Show nested quote + On January 31 2024 06:57 Pandain wrote: On January 31 2024 06:52 Locutos wrote: I honestly think that the Top 10 list for GOAT is boring. The Top 11- Top 20 would be much more fun to make. Trying to compare the likes of Stephano, Parting, MC, Taeja, Reynor, Clem, Solar, Nestea etc Here is an extremely fun question: Who is the greater foreigner - Clem or Oliveira? Clam, and it’s not even that close. Oliveira is like that relative frequent occurrence of some 100-150 ranked player winning a golf major when they catch fire for a few rounds. Still very damn impressive but it doesn’t immediately elevate them into the elite, they’re still just an average pro (still incredible by regular standards) who had a great tournament. I’m actually surprised that really, aside from Oliveira we’ve rarely had many rank outsiders have a great weekend and take the WC, it’s almost always somebody who’d be considered among the contenders going in. $o$ first time maybe, but then he subsequently established elite credentials. Oliveira is the modern alive | ||
Durnuu
13296 Posts
On February 01 2024 03:00 Nakajin wrote: Show nested quote + On January 31 2024 08:07 WombaT wrote: On January 31 2024 06:57 Pandain wrote: On January 31 2024 06:52 Locutos wrote: I honestly think that the Top 10 list for GOAT is boring. The Top 11- Top 20 would be much more fun to make. Trying to compare the likes of Stephano, Parting, MC, Taeja, Reynor, Clem, Solar, Nestea etc Here is an extremely fun question: Who is the greater foreigner - Clem or Oliveira? Clam, and it’s not even that close. Oliveira is like that relative frequent occurrence of some 100-150 ranked player winning a golf major when they catch fire for a few rounds. Still very damn impressive but it doesn’t immediately elevate them into the elite, they’re still just an average pro (still incredible by regular standards) who had a great tournament. I’m actually surprised that really, aside from Oliveira we’ve rarely had many rank outsiders have a great weekend and take the WC, it’s almost always somebody who’d be considered among the contenders going in. $o$ first time maybe, but then he subsequently established elite credentials. Oliveira is the modern alive Is he a scan bandit too? | ||
Nakajin
Canada8838 Posts
On January 31 2024 06:52 Locutos wrote: I honestly think that the Top 10 list for GOAT is boring. The Top 11- Top 20 would be much more fun to make. Trying to compare the likes of Stephano, Parting, MC, Taeja, Reynor, Clem, Solar, Nestea etc While I do love myself a good old top 10, this was my reasoning when I did the whole TL.net Goat tournament/contest as a top 128. It lead to some very interesting reflection on player we seldom think about. Sure we all have an opinion on Maru vs Serral, but what about HyuN vs Elazer? Jjakji vs Ragnarok? Clem vs Gumiho? Zoun vs Rainbow? | ||
Balnazza
Germany726 Posts
Ofc "reached a final in a Premier event" isn't a particularly strong metric, but interesting nevertheless (also, funfact: With MC7 done, South Korea actually has a negative score in Finals - 218 won vs. 219 loss. Of course most of these are Korean vs. Korean, but still funny that Koreans lost more finals than they won...technically) | ||
Xamo
Spain863 Posts
On January 31 2024 06:45 Locutos wrote: 5th Dark 4th Innovation 3rd Rogue 2nd Maru 1st Kelazh.. i mean, Serral 5th Dark 4th Innovation 3rd Maru 2nd Serral 1st Rogue Edit: Or perhaps Maru over Serral... not sure about that! | ||
Nakajin
Canada8838 Posts
On February 01 2024 06:33 Balnazza wrote: It is really interesting to look at those wide-spread accomplishments. When I did my "Top 2 Finishes in Premier events"-list, I learned so much unexpected stuff. ByuN for example never lost a Premier finals. MaNa reached the finals of atleast one Premier event in each addon, being one of only four players who did so - and the only foreigner. Also...Heromarine, before Clem often mentioned in the same breath as Serral and Reynor when you talked about top-dog foreigners never actually managed to reach a Premier event final. Ofc "reached a final in a Premier event" isn't a particularly strong metric, but interesting nevertheless (also, funfact: With MC7 done, South Korea actually has a negative score in Finals - 218 won vs. 219 loss. Of course most of these are Korean vs. Korean, but still funny that Koreans lost more finals than they won...technically) The Korean final stats is kind of crazy. Wild how SC2 changed through the years. | ||
Locutus_
Brazil65 Posts
On February 01 2024 06:33 Balnazza wrote: It is really interesting to look at those wide-spread accomplishments. When I did my "Top 2 Finishes in Premier events"-list, I learned so much unexpected stuff. ByuN for example never lost a Premier finals. MaNa reached the finals of atleast one Premier event in each addon, being one of only four players who did so - and the only foreigner. Also...Heromarine, before Clem often mentioned in the same breath as Serral and Reynor when you talked about top-dog foreigners never actually managed to reach a Premier event final. Ofc "reached a final in a Premier event" isn't a particularly strong metric, but interesting nevertheless (also, funfact: With MC7 done, South Korea actually has a negative score in Finals - 218 won vs. 219 loss. Of course most of these are Korean vs. Korean, but still funny that Koreans lost more finals than they won...technically) Who are the other 3 who appeared in a premier final in every addon? Maru? DRG? Gumiho? | ||
Locutus_
Brazil65 Posts
On February 02 2024 02:41 Locutus_ wrote: Show nested quote + On February 01 2024 06:33 Balnazza wrote: It is really interesting to look at those wide-spread accomplishments. When I did my "Top 2 Finishes in Premier events"-list, I learned so much unexpected stuff. ByuN for example never lost a Premier finals. MaNa reached the finals of atleast one Premier event in each addon, being one of only four players who did so - and the only foreigner. Also...Heromarine, before Clem often mentioned in the same breath as Serral and Reynor when you talked about top-dog foreigners never actually managed to reach a Premier event final. Ofc "reached a final in a Premier event" isn't a particularly strong metric, but interesting nevertheless (also, funfact: With MC7 done, South Korea actually has a negative score in Finals - 218 won vs. 219 loss. Of course most of these are Korean vs. Korean, but still funny that Koreans lost more finals than they won...technically) Who are the other 3 who appeared in a premier final in every addon? Maru? DRG? Gumiho? Byun prob there | ||
Balnazza
Germany726 Posts
On February 02 2024 02:41 Locutus_ wrote: Show nested quote + On February 01 2024 06:33 Balnazza wrote: It is really interesting to look at those wide-spread accomplishments. When I did my "Top 2 Finishes in Premier events"-list, I learned so much unexpected stuff. ByuN for example never lost a Premier finals. MaNa reached the finals of atleast one Premier event in each addon, being one of only four players who did so - and the only foreigner. Also...Heromarine, before Clem often mentioned in the same breath as Serral and Reynor when you talked about top-dog foreigners never actually managed to reach a Premier event final. Ofc "reached a final in a Premier event" isn't a particularly strong metric, but interesting nevertheless (also, funfact: With MC7 done, South Korea actually has a negative score in Finals - 218 won vs. 219 loss. Of course most of these are Korean vs. Korean, but still funny that Koreans lost more finals than they won...technically) Who are the other 3 who appeared in a premier final in every addon? Maru? DRG? Gumiho? Actually way crazier than that. The four players who achieved that feat are: MaNa, Polt, PartinG and MMA Maru/Gumiho never reached Top 2 in WoL, DRG never did it after WoL | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20922 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland20922 Posts
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