• Multiple championships and runner-ups in the biggest tournaments • Player of the year run in 2014 • First player to win Code S with three or fewer map losses in the modern era
Notable tournament finishes
2014 Code S Season 1: 1st place
2014 GSL Global Championship: 1st place
2014 IEM Toronto: 2nd place
2014 KeSPA Cup: 1st place
2015 IEM World Championship: 1st place
2016 Code S Season 1: 1st place
2016 HomeStory Cup 14: 2nd place
2017 HomeStory Cup 16: 1st place
2018 Code S Season 2: 2nd place
2020 IEM Katowice: 2nd place
2021 IEM Katowice: 2nd place
2021 2021 Code S Season 3: 2nd place
2022 GSL Super Tournament 1: 1st place
Zest is best! Well, perhaps not quite the best, but his tremendous career resume earned him the #6 spot on this Greatest of All Time list.
Zest claimed two Code S championships and an IEM world championship during the KeSPA glory years, and enjoyed multiple stretches as the clear best player in the world. Although he did experience lengthy periods without success in Premier Events, the heights he reached in 2014, as well as in the first half of 2016, rank among the highest peaks achieved by a player in any era of StarCraft II. While he struggled to reach such a level in the post-KeSPA years, he showed uncanny longevity by returning to Code S and world championship finals in multiple, far-apart years.
Early on, Zest fit the archetype of the near-perfect macro player, the final boss on top of the mountain. But the key to Zest's longevity was the intelligence and adaptability that saw him dictate the Protoss meta. Whether it was late-game macro in Heart of the Swarm, modern Glaive-Adept openers vs Zerg, or the practical application of Blink-DTs in PvT, he gained advantages with cutting edge strategies and tactics that other players would inevitably copy.
Even though the second half of Zest's career lacked the visceral impact of the first, his peaks combined with his fantastic aggregate results earn him this high placement.
How Zest and the boys would react to this list, presumably.
Career Overview: Dominating peak + incredible longevity
As with the first four players on this ranking, Zest entered the StarCraft II scene in May of 2012 as a part of the KeSPA 'invasion.' The first year and a half of his SC2 career was fairly unremarkable, as he failed to qualify for a single Korean Individual Leagues (Code S, OSL, SSL). Still, Zest distinguished himself as Flash's right-hand man in Proleague, suggesting there was some potential waiting to be realized.
Indeed, Proleague would be the stage on which Zest gave the first major tease of his career-defining 2014 campaign. The 2014 Proleague Round 1 playoffs in February came down to a classic telecom derby finals, with SKT's supersquad taking on a KT Rolster roster headlined by Flash. However, the god of Brood War didn't even get a chance to play in the match, as Zest opened and ended the series with an all-kill against the all-star line-up of Rain, Soulkey, soO, and PartinG.
That momentum carried over to Code S Season 1, where Zest had already made his debut and won his RO32 group. He continued to collect the scalps of top players, defeating Dear and Soulkey in the RO16, sweeping BlizzCon winner sOs in the RO8, and taking a 4-2 over the mighty Rain in the semifinals. Even the previous season's finalist soO couldn't stop Zest's march down the royal road, and the upstart Protoss took a 4-3 finals victory to win his first ever major championship (in doing so, Zest became the fourth and final Royal Roader in Code S history).
Zest's other two Code S campaigns of 2014 ended in the RO8 and RO4, but he picked up more titles elsewhere. He won April's GSL Global Championship with a victory over PartinG in the finals, while he put on a PvP masterclass to win the inaugural KeSPA Cup in September (as a bonus for winning the KeSPA Cup, he also got to smash foreigners as the lone Korean representative at IeSF 2014). He also enjoyed success with his team, as KT Rolster clinched the 2014 Proleague championship.
Unfortunately for Zest, who had been incredible all year, he drew an unlucky first round match against Life at the 2014 WCS Global Finals (which was being played in a 16-player single elimination format at the time). This meant the end of Zest's career year overlapped with the start of Life's own career-best stretch, and he gave up a close, 2-3 loss to the eventual tournament winner.
Compared to the high standard he set in 2015, Zest declined slightly in 2015 as he failed to reach the finals of any of the Korean Individual Leagues. Still, he attained top eight finishes in three seasons of GSL/SSL, and had an MVP-candidate season in Proleague after being passed on ace duties by Flash (Proleague didn't give actually out regular-season MVP awards at the time, but Zest did tie herO for most regular season wins). But, most memorably, Zest won the 2015 IEM World Championship, going through Hydra, INnoVation, Bbyong, and Trap on his way to the single biggest payday of his career until then. Alas, Zest ended 2015 on another deflating note, as he was swept by INnoVation in the first round at the 2015 WCS Global Finals. It was an underwhelming end to Heart of the Swarm for Zest, who had played a large part in the evolution of how Protoss approached StarCraft II during its first expansion.
As a seven-time HomeStory Cup attendee and two-time champion, Zest definitely belongs on the TakeTV GOAT list .
The introduction of LotV at the end of 2015 caused major upheaval in Korea. Not only did a host of players retire (most notably Rain), but Dark, Stats, and TY—players who had been mired in the second tier of Korean StarCraft II for years—rose up and became championship contenders. However, in 2016 Code S Season 1, Zest made it clear he was still a cut above the rest. After defeating Maru in Code A, Zest made mincemeat of his opponents in the Code S main event, recording a stellar 15-1 map record en route to the finals. TY managed to make Zest actually work a little, taking two games off his teammate before being defeated. Even then, Zest’s 19-3 record during the first Code S season of Legacy of the Void made it the most dominant season since Mvp and NesTea's runs in 2011.
Zest's trend of starting strong and falling off continued, as that super-dominant Code S run would be his highlight moment of 2016. His results trailed off for the rest of the year, and the decline continued into 2017 where he suffered the worst slump of his career. He only qualified for the first seasons of Code S and SSL, and failed to make the cut for either in the summer and fall. The only thing that kept Zest in the public eye was his success at HomeStory Cup events, as he won tournaments number 15 and 16. Zest later attributed some of this slump to the end of Proleague and the dissolution of KeSPA teams (excluding Jin Air), as he had found it hard to maintain the same level of discipline outside of the team house environment.
Whatever the reason for his poor 2017, Zest launched an impressive comeback campaign in 2018. After returning to the Code S RO8 in Season 1, Zest earned his first finals appearance in over two years in the following Code S Season 2. Alas, his finals opponent was Maru in the middle of his Code S four-peat, and he was dismantled like all of Maru's other GSL opponents during that period. That second place result would be the high watermark for Zest that year, and he closed 2017 out with top four finishes in Code S Season 3 and HomeStory Cup 18.
In rather INnoVation-esque fashion, Zest repeated that bad-year/good-year pattern again in 2019/20. His 2019 campaign wasn't quite as disastrous as 2017, but it was still rather forgettable as his best Code S result was a singular top eight finish in Season 3. Thus, heading into 2020, fans could have been forgiven for thinking Zest was finally finished as a championship-tier player. He was over two years removed from even winning a secondary title (HomeStory Cup in 2017), and the rise of foreigners like Serral and Reynor had kept the top-end of the scene very competitive. Making one major career comeback was already hard enough, and players not-named INnoVation didn't just casually phase in and out of championship contention on a yearly basis. However, against all expectations, Zest proved he still had plenty left in the tank.
Fortunately for Zest, the 2020 IEM World Championship didn't require points to qualify for, and he scored a RO24 spot through the qualifiers. He began the tournament on firm footing, advancing as expected from a group that included Rogue, ShoWTimE, Reynor, soO and Armani. With the wind in his sails, Zest took advantage of a favorable initial bracket draw against sOs and Dear to reach the final four.
It seemed like the tournament would end there for Zest, as he was going up against the ZvP monster Serral. Zest was 0-6 in matches against Serral up to that point (1-12 in maps), making the situation seem especially hopeless. However, at this moment, Zest pulled out his most meta-defining trick yet, using the nascent Glaive-Adept openers to score a shocking 3-2 upset. And, while he lost in anticlimactic fashion to Rogue in the finals, he had reestablished himself as a game changer and a championship contender.
Breaking his 0-6 losing streak against Serral at IEM was definitely one of the most badass moments of Zest's career.
After tailing off again in the later half of 2020, Zest came back strong in 2021. With rumors of military service swirling around him, he embarked on a last ride that would be his most impressive stretch since 2014. He returned to IEM Katowice (virtually, since this was the pandemic-stricken online version), where he scored wins over players like Reynor, Clem, Trap, and PartinG to reach the grand finals once more (the series against PartinG was one of the more memorable, hyper-chaotic PvP's we've seen in high-stakes tournament). In doing so, he became both the first player to ever reach back-to-back IEM world championship finals, and also the first to reach three total finals.
The grand finals pitted Zest against Reynor, with Zest having already defeated the Italian Zerg once in the group stage. He started off strong in game one, jumping ahead to a 1-0 lead. However, Reynor proved to be better prepared for the rematch, and he rattled off three wins to take the commanding series lead. Zest managed to take back one more map, but Reynor wouldn't allow the comeback and finished the series 4-2.
In familiar Zest fashion, he cooled down as the year progressed, finishing in the RO8 and RO16 of the first two Code S Seasons. However, in 2021, he had an October surprise in store. He gathered himself just in time for Season 3 of Code S, where he ran through, KeeN, Trap, Dream, and Rogue to reach the Code S finals for the fourth time overall. Like the 2020 IEM World Championship, this finals run was memorable because Zest pulled off what felt like an impossible PvZ feat at the time. In Poland, he had defeated the invincible Serral. In Korea, he brought Rogue's mythical unbeaten record in offline BO7 matches to an end. Alas, for the fourth straight time in major tournament finals, Zest fell just short of winning the trophy. Every tournament is someone's tournament of destiny, and this time Cure took on the role of protagonist with his dominating TvP.
With the farewell tour reaching its end, Zest managed to take one final trophy for the road in 2022's GSL Super Tournament 1. That briefly raised hopes that he might make another run at IEM Katowice 2022, but it was not to be as he was eliminated in the group stages. After a couple of uneventful seasons in Code S, Zest (and the Korean military) decided it was finally time to bow out, and officially retired in June of 2022.
The Tools: Macro Titan and Protoss Trailblazer
While not one of the absolute best in terms of micro and macro mechanics (Zest banks come readily to mind), Zest more than made up for it with his ability to control the larger game. His use of the humble Zealot run-by might be the best encapsulation—he rarely microed them in a way to maximize their damage (they often did hilariously little direct damage), but they always came at the right place and time needed to give himself an advantage.
Thus, even without a lot of individual flashy plays, the overall way in which Zest managed his games was equally impressive. Every decision he made seemed to work while every move made by his opponents backfired in their face. His peak play bears comparison to the likes of players like Rain, Serral, or INnoVation at their very best, with their games almost inevitably flowing toward victory through the accrual of small advantages.
In many respects, Zest is the player who had the most individual influence on Protoss strategy. Sure, MC and PartinG may have defined all-in oriented play early on, and Rain may have been the first master of macro. But Zest had more of a lasting impact over a long period. After starting by establishing various macro standards for Protoss during their era of HotS domination, Zest kept being a trendsetter in LotV by popularizing Glaive-Adept openers in PvZ and demonstrating the power of Blink-DT harassment in PvT. While not all of his ideas were long-term gamechangers (various forms of 2-Stargate Phoenix in PvZ come to mind), Protoss players could always look to him for a spark of inspiration.
Even as Zest declined in his later years, and his comprehensive macro wins became rarer and rarer, there was still a huge 'know how to win' element to his play. That helped him remain a lurking title threat, and score huge BO5+ upsets against the likes of Serral and Rogue in high-profile matches.
The Numbers: God-like peak and uncanny resilience
Korean Individual League (Code S, OSL, SSLᵃ) finishes From KeSPA entry into StarCraft II (Code S Season 4 2012) to 2023
a: SSL 2017 was excluded due its 10-player format. b: The opening round for these tournaments was the RO32 except the following: Code S 2020 (RO24), 2021 (RO16), 2022 (RO20), 2023 (RO16), SSL 2015-16 (RO16), OSL 2012 (RO16). c: For Code S 2022, the RO10 finishes were counted as RO16 for the sake of simplifying results in this table. d: For Code S 2020, the RO6 finishes were counted as RO8 for the sake of simplifying results in this table.
Record in world championship-tierᵃ tournament finals
a: Included tournaments: WCS Global Finals 2013-2019, IEM Katowice 2014-2023 (except 2016), WESG 2016-2018, Gamers8 2023
Having appeared in 22 seasons of Code S, Zest boasts one of the longest and most successful careers in StarCraft II history. Zest entered the league alongside luminaries such as soO, INnoVation, sOs and Rain and, while he was not the first of the group to win a Korean Individual League, he was the one that lasted the longest before finally retiring. Along the way, Zest reached the Code S round of 8 or better 14 times, a mark only exceeded by INnoVation’s 16. His four final appearances in Code S is bettered only by Maru (9), soO (6) and Mvp (5).
In terms of world championship-tier events, Zest also belongs in an elite group of six players that reached three or more finals. Thus, despite his many slumps, Zest managed to build one of the best overall career resumes over the course of a decade.
Notable half-year win-loss records vs Korean playersᵃ during KeSPA era From KeSPA entry into StarCraft II (Code S Season 4 2012) to 2016
a: To adjust for record inflation from international tournaments during an era where the Korea-World gap was at its widest. b: Match records can be misleading in this period due to best-of-one Proleague matches. While they were included for references, game records are probably a better indicator of ability.
A good portion of this list comes down to cumulative accomplishments, but there is something to be said about a player's aura of dominance. There's no perfect way to sample this stat so that it's fair to everyone, but if we arbitrarily choose yearly halves as our time period, Zest enjoyed one of the most dominant stretches of the KeSPA era during the first half of 2016. Not to give the future rankings away, but Zest's first-half 2016 was one of the few stretches where a player actually came close or surpassed INnoVation's multiple periods of dominance.
Best overall map records during Code S winning seasons From KeSPA entry into StarCraft II (Code S Season 4 2012) to 2023
a: Maps required to win differ for 2011 tournaments due to frequent format changes. B: Played in a 16-player format. Dark's record was 18-4 when counting his Code A match.
In particular, Zest's performance in Code S Season 1 of 2016 ranks among the most dominating performances in StarCraft II history. While NesTea, MC and Mvp (twice) won the event while picking up less losses than Zest did in 2016, they all did so in 2011 when StarCraft II was more stratified.
Once KeSPA players arrived in 2012, Code S champions lost anywhere from 6-11 games per season over the next four years. Then, out of nowhere, Zest totally disrupted the status quo while only losing three games on the way to his second Code S title (for comparison—the other players who won Code S in 2015 and 2016 picked up 11, 6, 6 and 7 losses respectively).
And, while Maru and Dark posted similarly impressive records on their way to Code S titles in 2018, 2019 and 2021, they did so during a period where the Korean scene went through a phase of restratification as many players retired. Thus, one could make a case for Zest's 2016 Season 1 being the most dominant Code S run ever.
StarCraft II Proleague win-loss records (map score)ᵃᵇ
a: The 2011/12 season was excluded as it was played in a hybrid Brood War + SC2 format. b: Playoff statistics included. c: Classic's nine games as Terran (2-7) were excluded.
Zest easily had one of the best Proleague careers ever, and it's in the conversation to be THE best, period. As stated in the sOs article, the Jin Air trickster has a stronger case in terms of overall wins and win-rate, but is hampered by his lack of ace match contributions. If you throw ace match responsibilities into the mix, either Zest or herO could also be considered to have had the greatest SC2 Proleague career.
Protoss vs Protoss statistics in offline matches vs Korean players onlyᵃ From KeSPA entry into StarCraft II (Code S Season 4 2012) to the end of 2017
a: To correct for record inflation from international tournaments during an era where the Korea-World gap was at its widest.
While not a key factor, this article series has highlighted when players were especially strong in certain match-ups. When it came to Code S, Zest recorded a whopping 59-27 career map record in PvP. His 69% win-rate ranks among the best match-ups in Code S history alongside Mvp’s TvT (43-21, 67%), MC’s PvZ (29-11, 73%) and NesTea’s ZvZ (17-7, 71%). The fact that he was able to maintain a competitive win-rate over a longer period of time and larger sample of games makes it more impressive than the marks recorded by those older legends.
The Placement:
If #7 soO required some additional explaining regarding my valuation of championships vs runner-ups, Zest's case to be #6 all time is more conventional. He reached the grand finals in seven Korean Individual League and world championship-tier events, and achieved victory in three of them. Zest is one of seven players to make the finals of Code S at least four times, and is tied with Rogue, sOs, Serral, Stats, and Dark for the second most world championship final appearances at three (when counting Gamers8 and WESG, Reynor leads with four). Outside of these most prestigious events, Zest also bolstered his resume with a smattering of runner-up and first place finishes in secondary tournaments.
Zest was also one of the best players during Proleague's 4-year stint in StarCraft II. While his win-rate falls slightly short of the top handful of players, his total number of games played and his higher burden of ace duties put him in the conversation for having had the best SC2 Proleague career ever.
The weakness in Zest's resume is his inconsistency, as he fell out of serious title contention for months, or even a whole year at a time. However, when you take the extremely long-term view and consider his career in its entirety, it's remarkable how he was able to challenge for a championship in so many different years. In that sense, he was both extremely consistent and inconsistent at the same time.
It is worth noting that I found this #6-7 line to be where there was a clear delineation. While I had various players in different orders in the #10-7 zone, none of them had a best-case finish in the top six. Thus, Zest marks the first of six players who could not fall lower than #6.
The Games:
Games were selected primarily based on how well they represented a players' style, not entertainment value.
Zest vs soO - 2014 Code S Season 1 Finals, Game 6 - (February 11, 2014)
PvZ late-game was considered to be Protoss-favored during Heart of the Swarm, with Protoss having a high chance of winning if they could just drag the game out (with the exception of some excruciating Swarm Host metas outside of Korea). Regardless of your opinion on balance at the time, it would become clear that Zest was the best absolute player in these kinds of scenarios due to his general decision-making and ability to control the flow of the game.
soO proved to be a particularly good punching bag in this (somewhat boring) late-game demonstration, as Zest meticulously picked him apart on his way to his first ever Code S championship.
Zest vs TaeJa: 2016 Code S Season 1 - Round of 32 (February 17, 2016)
(Timestamp - 21:20)
PvZ wasn't the only match-up that Zest dominated during his peak years. Facing off against TaeJa in his return to Code S, Zest showed the Liquid Terran exactly what he had been missing during his years of playing in WCS. The two players engaged in a proper late-game TvP brawl, where Zest slowly and patiently played himself into a winning position.
Zest vs Serral: 2020 IEM Katowice - Semifinals, Game 4 (March 1, 2020)
(Timestamp - 12:00)
Zest’s late career resurgence kicked into high gear in 2020 as he reached the finals of the IEM World Championship for the second time in his career. But, in order to do so he had to deal with Serral.
The group stages had seen Zest bring out what was then a surprising new strategy in the form of fast Glaive Adepts, which caught many a Zerg off-guard. Serral, facing Zest in the semifinals, had the advantage of a bit more preparation time, but still wasn't entirely sure of how to deal with this flexible opener.
In this game, Serral held the Adept harassment off reasonably well, but the pressure still allowed Zest to put himself into a strong mid-game position. Serral felt compelled to try and bust Zest with Ravager-Bane, but it was too late as Zest already had more than enough Templars to defend.
Zest vs Clem: 2021 IEM Katowice - Quarterfinals, Game 5 (February 27, 2021)
This game toward the end of Zest's career embodies the inexplicable 'know how to win' factor that saw him frequently upset younger and more mechanically gifted players. This game was a gloriously chaotic mess, which on paper should have favored the lightning-quick Clem. However, Zest was the one who made Clem play on the backfoot, and he barely came out with the victory in the end.
Love to see it! The Protoss goat, one of the best looking players, and the first player ever to prove that Rogue was not some invincible god in offline bo7, just a very hard to beat killer once he got in this format.
I didn’t watch much HotS unfortunately, but Zest conquered my heart for the first time by beating TY in an impressive display of skill from both players in one of the first LotV code S finals (if not the first)
A bit sad that the (probably) highest rated Protoss is not in the top 5, but with mvp / INno / Serral / Rogue and Maru left, it’s pretty tough. If only he managed to win all those Katowice finals…
A bit sad that the (probably) highest rated Protoss is not in the top 5, but with mvp / INno / Serral / Rogue and Maru left, it’s pretty tough. If only he managed to win all those Katowice finals…
Not sure you would think that when I'm expecting Stats, herO, Parting, MC, and HuK to complete the list.
Ya know, in hindsight Zest's 2014 GSL run looks even more ridiculous than I remember. Even if we put aside the most ridiculous group of death ever produced by a random draw, just the fact that Zest on his way to GSL title beat down who's who of best players of 2013 makes a point (of course half of that who's who being in SKT made it funnier at the time).
On January 27 2024 05:37 imData wrote: Zest not top 5 is quite a disrespect. He should at least be ahead of Inno then we can debate with Dark for the 4th place.
Dark won't be there. I think #6 for Zest should probably be one of the least controversial picks on the list as he's clearly above all players below him but also clearly below Maru, Serral, Rogue and Inno. Only Mvp could be argued to be below him but I get the decision to put Mvp higher for the impact he had on the game.
I often wonder about Zest's choice of ID. It seems questionable given the fact that the z sound doesn't exist in Korean. He should have just leaned further into it and gone by Jest (I think that's pretty flippant in a badass way). Feel free to bury me for this take.
On January 27 2024 07:33 Mizenhauer wrote: I often wonder about Zest's choice of ID. It seems questionable given the fact that the z sound doesn't exist in Korean. He should have just leaned further into it and gone by Jest (I think that's pretty flippant in a badass way). Feel free to bury me for this take.
Jest would have been very fitting for his Playstyle in His later career.
It really comes down to if it's MVP or Dark that's gonna get into the top 5. My personal vote goes to Dark but both of them really deserve places in top 10.
On January 27 2024 07:33 Mizenhauer wrote: I often wonder about Zest's choice of ID. It seems questionable given the fact that the z sound doesn't exist in Korean. He should have just leaned further into it and gone by Jest (I think that's pretty flippant in a badass way). Feel free to bury me for this take.
On January 27 2024 05:37 imData wrote: Zest not top 5 is quite a disrespect. He should at least be ahead of Inno then we can debate with Dark for the 4th place.
Dark won't be there. I think #6 for Zest should probably be one of the least controversial picks on the list as he's clearly above all players below him but also clearly below Maru, Serral, Rogue and Inno. Only Mvp could be argued to be below him but I get the decision to put Mvp higher for the impact he had on the game.
A player's impact on the game is absurdly subjective and was never a criteria. It's a nice piece of trivia and nothing more.
On January 27 2024 08:05 Nasigil wrote: It really comes down to if it's MVP or Dark that's gonna get into the top 5. My personal vote goes to Dark but both of them really deserve places in top 10.
There will be rioting on the streets of Team Liquid if Mvp isn’t on it.
I do feel there should be some space for an OG and there’s only one candidate. Although it’s harsh on Dark as he has a very solid claim to be on there.
Feels the last few years with a slightly weaker scene Rogue stripped ahead by making more hay than Dark did, although I think prior to that the latter probably had the better career overall.
On January 27 2024 08:05 Nasigil wrote: It really comes down to if it's MVP or Dark that's gonna get into the top 5. My personal vote goes to Dark but both of them really deserve places in top 10.
There will be rioting on the streets of Team Liquid if Mvp isn’t on it.
I do feel there should be some space for an OG and there’s only one candidate. Although it’s harsh on Dark as he has a very solid claim to be on there.
Feels the last few years with a slightly weaker scene Rogue stripped ahead by making more hay than Dark did, although I think prior to that the latter probably had the better career overall.
On the other hand. Starcraft 2 has been going for 13 years. MVP really only dominated the first 2-3 years. Dark has been consistently one of the best Zergs in the world for the last 8-9 years. It's not that crazy to give it to Dark.
However it's be really funny if Rain was #10 on last list and still #10 now, while the original GOAT is nowhere to be found in the new list. Some controversy is bound to happen whatever the outcome is.
I'm still not buying into the hype that Mvp is even on this list. Being dominant when the game was new is just not that big of a feat. Sorry for yet again making the side-step to WC3, but I don't feel like DayFly or Madfrog ever were seriously in a Top 10 discussion of all time, considering how fast they dropped out compared to...well, everyone else.
Zest being the best Protoss seems about right. Him not being Top 5 also seems right.
MVP being below Rain is a little dubious but not too dramatic. MVP could be anywhere from #6 to #12. I feel like Zest could be lower than #6 but I think he gets a bump for being the GOAT Protoss and I guess this list is really valuing Zest's staying power.
On January 27 2024 09:14 Balnazza wrote: I'm still not buying into the hype that Mvp is even on this list. Being dominant when the game was new is just not that big of a feat. Sorry for yet again making the side-step to WC3, but I don't feel like DayFly or Madfrog ever were seriously in a Top 10 discussion of all time, considering how fast they dropped out compared to...well, everyone else.
Zest being the best Protoss seems about right. Him not being Top 5 also seems right.
Why would Rain be on the list if Mvp isn't? Mvp's case is just Rain's case but better in every way lol
Maru Serral INno and Rogue are almost certainly guaranteed at this point. Would not be surprised if Dark took the last spot over MVP. Also, MVP was not dominant for 2-3 years like someone said earlier, it was more like a year and a half. His last big win was a 4-3 over Squirtle in the GSL finals, which is also kinda funny since that series is so famous for the game Squirtle won. After that he fell on his face hard for 2 years when the Kespa invasion happened and then he retired.
I'm not gonna be upset if MVP gets the nod, but I certainly won't be rioting in the TL streets if he doesn't!
There's little to say against him being the GOAT Protoss. His 2014 run was up there with Mvp's 2011, INno's 2017, and Serral's 2018 in one of the best years any player has had. If any writers decide to do a 'highest peaks' series, he would certainly be on it.
He's also the best PvP player to ever touch the game. Is his PvP the best match up of any player?
He is, unfortunately, inconsistent so I can see why he ended up lower than INno and Mvp. And he does have a couple grim losses that hold him back from being on the highest tier (2014 Blizzcon, GSL finals vs Cure), and he has the worst cannon rush of all time
But personally I think after 8 years of winning, he outshined at least Mvp's triumphant couple of years. Not to mention he had a similarly dominant run in a much harder era against Kespa players
On January 27 2024 09:14 Balnazza wrote: I'm still not buying into the hype that Mvp is even on this list. Being dominant when the game was new is just not that big of a feat. Sorry for yet again making the side-step to WC3, but I don't feel like DayFly or Madfrog ever were seriously in a Top 10 discussion of all time, considering how fast they dropped out compared to...well, everyone else.
Zest being the best Protoss seems about right. Him not being Top 5 also seems right.
Why would Rain be on the list if Mvp isn't? Mvp's case is just Rain's case but better in every way lol
That's a question you could ask Mizenhauer. I wouldn't have been mad if he was tenth, but Top 5 of all time? No way in hell. His last non-qualifier or showmatch series was a 2-3 vs. MorroW...
I think the biggest question is, will Rogue be on the list at all? He's the patch zerg after all. Now that he's reminded, maybe suddenly there's room for another player
I can't see any players other than... Innovation, Serral, Maru, Rogue, and Dark being top 5. Initially I had MVP in there too, but this list is much more about longevity than "Peak". Mvp may have been the best in 2011-2012, but he was pretty much washed up by the end of 2013.
But I do agree, I can't see why Mvp would be absent but Rain on the list. The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that Rain shouldn't be there.
On January 27 2024 12:54 Blargh wrote: I can't see any players other than... Innovation, Serral, Maru, Rogue, and Dark being top 5. Initially I had MVP in there too, but this list is much more about longevity than "Peak". Mvp may have been the best in 2011-2012, but he was pretty much washed up by the end of 2013.
But I do agree, I can't see why Mvp would be absent but Rain on the list. The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that Rain shouldn't be there.
I wonder if Rain doing well in BW after he retired from SC2 played a role in that.
On January 27 2024 12:54 Blargh wrote: I can't see any players other than... Innovation, Serral, Maru, Rogue, and Dark being top 5. Initially I had MVP in there too, but this list is much more about longevity than "Peak". Mvp may have been the best in 2011-2012, but he was pretty much washed up by the end of 2013.
But I do agree, I can't see why Mvp would be absent but Rain on the list. The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that Rain shouldn't be there.
I agree. I think anyone who still expects Mvp to show up in this list is either deluded or seeing the past with rose-tinted glasses. I was the biggest Mvp stan back then, and I still think his GSL finals win vs Squirtle was the hypest SC2 moment of all time. Yet if we look at objective results which this list does, if Mvp was to show up, he would have been top 8 at best IMO. Mvp is the undisputed King of Wings, but he has no business being in a top 10 GOAT list of a nearly 14 year old game when WoL was only around for 2 and a half years. That is less than 20% of the game's total existence.
I agree that the top 5 should indisputably be Rogue Serral Maru INno Dark. While pretty much everyone agrees on the first 4, I think Dark doesn't get the respect he deserves here. Dark has been a top 3 world zerg for like 9 years and he's still a world champion contender.
I personally had Stats at #7 and Zest at #6 so now I'm guessing Stats won't show up. I think it would be especially puzzling to see Rain in this list without Stats, but that's the only disagreement I have on an otherwise excellent top 10 list by TL's writers.
On January 27 2024 12:54 Blargh wrote: I can't see any players other than... Innovation, Serral, Maru, Rogue, and Dark being top 5. Initially I had MVP in there too, but this list is much more about longevity than "Peak". Mvp may have been the best in 2011-2012, but he was pretty much washed up by the end of 2013.
But I do agree, I can't see why Mvp would be absent but Rain on the list. The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that Rain shouldn't be there.
Agreed. Sounds like MVP is out, but how is Rain above MVP?
And i say this as someone who's always been against MVP being ranked so highly on others' lists, reminding others that he didn't win 4 GSL's but just 3 GSLs and the 4th GSL was a GSL vs the World style tourny with much less money, and with only a Ro16 that was half filled with foreigners who were non-competitive in that era.
Heck, even TY above MVP is an interesting take.
Also, if longetivity is going to be valued highly on this list, then why Rain over Stats? Stats has a very close achievements list to Zest. Zest has 1 WC win, and 2 WC 2nd places. Stats has 3 WC 2nd places, it's not a huuge difference there, 3 is still very impressive especially considering how Soo's 2nd places are valued enough to put him at 8th. And Stats has a few wins at GSL tourneys / Starleagues similar to Zest, as well as several 2nd or top 4 places at GSL tourneys / Starleagues. Main difference to me is Zest getting that late-career GSL Super win, and actually getting a WCS win where Stats didn't.
I don't get how Soo is above Stats as well as MVP. Stats has a few wins as well as 2 WC 2nd places, considering this list's criteria said that WC is generally valued only a little more than a GSL/Starleague.
That said, anyone below Zest is pretty contentious and it's interesting to see where people place sOs/sOO/MVP/TY/Stats/Taeja/etc.
It'll be interesting if Dark might even be placed above Inno considering Dark is still going strong into 2024, years after Inno started to fall off.
If anyone is curious, here are the top earnings for SC2 players: Winnings 1 Serral $1,317,671 2 Maru $1,215,993 3 Rogue $1,059,971 4 Dark $1,044,351 5 INnoVation $811,251
Reynor is 6th at ~750k. While earnings aren't a great way of measuring goatness (pre LotV EU/NA were basically welfare bucks compared to the Korean field), I think it's pretty clear that all 5 of those players are legends and didn't just have a dominant year or two. They've pretty much all been top players for as long as they've been active. Mvp on the other hand is all the way down at 25th at $415k. Basically half of the rest of these. Of course, then Rain is just at $216k!!! Interestingly, if you look at the top 10 earnings, it will likely encompass all of Miz's list with the exception of Reynor being swapped with Rain!
On January 27 2024 12:54 Blargh wrote: I can't see any players other than... Innovation, Serral, Maru, Rogue, and Dark being top 5. Initially I had MVP in there too, but this list is much more about longevity than "Peak". Mvp may have been the best in 2011-2012, but he was pretty much washed up by the end of 2013.
But I do agree, I can't see why Mvp would be absent but Rain on the list. The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that Rain shouldn't be there.
Agreed. Sounds like MVP is out, but how is Rain above MVP?
And i say this as someone who's always been against MVP being ranked so highly on others' lists, reminding others that he didn't win 4 GSL's but just 3 GSLs and the 4th GSL was a GSL vs the World style tourny with much less money, and with only a Ro16 that was half filled with foreigners who were non-competitive in that era.
Heck, even TY above MVP is an interesting take.
Also, if longetivity is going to be valued highly on this list, then why Rain over Stats? Stats has a very close achievements list to Zest. Zest has 1 WC win, and 2 WC 2nd places. Stats has 3 WC 2nd places, it's not a huuge difference there, 3 is still very impressive especially considering how Soo's 2nd places are valued enough to put him at 8th. And Stats has a few wins at GSL tourneys / Starleagues similar to Zest, as well as several 2nd or top 4 places at GSL tourneys / Starleagues. Main difference to me is Zest getting that late-career GSL Super win, and actually getting a WCS win where Stats didn't.
I don't get how Soo is above Stats as well as MVP. Stats has a few wins as well as 2 WC 2nd places, considering this list's criteria said that WC is generally valued only a little more than a GSL/Starleague.
That said, anyone below Zest is pretty contentious and it's interesting to see where people place sOs/sOO/MVP/TY/Stats/Taeja/etc.
It'll be interesting if Dark might even be placed above Inno considering Dark is still going strong into 2024, years after Inno started to fall off.
I find it hard to make such lists given I do rate innovation and influence quite highly, longevity a little less. A top 15/20 is pretty easy but what order they appear in is quite tricky!
It feels to me you either have both Mvp and Rain, or neither, depending on one’s criteria. If a shorter but glorious peak of smacking nerds around is one, then I think you can put them both in no worries, but if a longer stretch is prioritised it’s harder to make a case that they keep a Dark or a Stats out
On January 27 2024 16:38 Blargh wrote: If anyone is curious, here are the top earnings for SC2 players: Winnings 1 Serral $1,317,671 2 Maru $1,215,993 3 Rogue $1,059,971 4 Dark $1,044,351 5 INnoVation $811,251
Reynor is 6th at ~750k. While earnings aren't a great way of measuring goatness (pre LotV EU/NA were basically welfare bucks compared to the Korean field), I think it's pretty clear that all 5 of those players are legends and didn't just have a dominant year or two. They've pretty much all been top players for as long as they've been active. Mvp on the other hand is all the way down at 25th at $415k. Basically half of the rest of these. Of course, then Rain is just at $216k!!! Interestingly, if you look at the top 10 earnings, it will likely encompass all of Miz's list with the exception of Reynor being swapped with Rain!
Earnings favor later peaks way more as there is more price Money in the big Events than in the First 5 years.
On January 27 2024 12:11 BisuDagger wrote: Miz, I gotta know, are your final 5 picks set in stone already or are you still changing them as you listen to arguments?
I would be doing a pretty terrible job if i discarded hundreds of hours of prep/research/writing and started going by what people on the forum say...
If Stats made the list instead of Rain, Mvp top 10 deniers would have a point. But can't have Rain and not Mvp unless the criteria includes "pre Kespa didn't exist".
On January 27 2024 20:34 Fango wrote: If Stats made the list instead of Rain, Mvp top 10 deniers would have a point. But can't have Rain and not Mvp unless the criteria includes "pre Kespa didn't exist".
On January 27 2024 09:14 Balnazza wrote: I'm still not buying into the hype that Mvp is even on this list. Being dominant when the game was new is just not that big of a feat. Sorry for yet again making the side-step to WC3, but I don't feel like DayFly or Madfrog ever were seriously in a Top 10 discussion of all time, considering how fast they dropped out compared to...well, everyone else.
Zest being the best Protoss seems about right. Him not being Top 5 also seems right.
Wc3 list is pretty much set in stone at this point. Happy moon Lyn infi TH grubby sky remind 120 ted
Maybe some minor order nitpicking but I don't think anyone would challenge those.
They were never in discussion because they didn't really dominate for very long or very convincingly (or both). Both early wc3 (to like 1.26) and wol were very volatile and in certain aspects insanely broken. If someone is dominant then it's noteworthy. Rare cases when the game takes the meaning away (eg, patchzergs & foggy in kotg patch.)
I think there is more than enough argument for Mvp and company but they aren't going to be "this" list because game influence and pre lotv aren't part of the criteria
I think my favorite Zest moment was in an in interview after the first ever LOTV GSL finals in 2015. Zest got asked about going down early to TY and what his mindset was like, and he said something to the effect of, "I got worried thinking I couldn't do it, but then I remembered I'm Zest!" Fucking legend lol absolutely deserves to be in the top 10.
I would put him higher bit i'm biased. From what I remember he always seemed to peak in December-January and then ebb and flow the rest of the year which is unfortunate from a Tournament Schedule point of view.
I do hope he comes back this year after military, would love to see Zest compete again!
Waiting with bated breath to see if Dark cracks the top 5. I think Dark has tragically underperformed in finals, and especially G7s of finals (as Fango has been pointing out in the threads), so if just a few more maps go Dark's way, we'd be seeing him in a very different light. The margin is even tighter than for soO; according to Aligulac, Dark is 1W8L in Premier finals G7s...
By the numbers, he seems to have a pretty strong case, but he never put together a truly dominant-feeling stretch the way the others did, and he drops maps to literally everybody even when he's at his peak. Though the same can be said of Zest, Rogue, and Maru, so... well, fingers crossed, I'll be a very happy fan :D
On January 27 2024 16:38 Blargh wrote: If anyone is curious, here are the top earnings for SC2 players: Winnings 1 Serral $1,317,671 2 Maru $1,215,993 3 Rogue $1,059,971 4 Dark $1,044,351 5 INnoVation $811,251
Reynor is 6th at ~750k. While earnings aren't a great way of measuring goatness (pre LotV EU/NA were basically welfare bucks compared to the Korean field), I think it's pretty clear that all 5 of those players are legends and didn't just have a dominant year or two. They've pretty much all been top players for as long as they've been active. Mvp on the other hand is all the way down at 25th at $415k. Basically half of the rest of these. Of course, then Rain is just at $216k!!! Interestingly, if you look at the top 10 earnings, it will likely encompass all of Miz's list with the exception of Reynor being swapped with Rain!
Earnings favor later peaks way more as there is more price Money in the big Events than in the First 5 years.
That's not true, it's actually the opposite. Overall the highest earning era was from 2011 to 2014 with a peak in 2012, then we had another big years from 2017 to 2019 but after that it went all the way down. Don't forget that during WoL/HotS, the Kespa was still a thing with the proleague and the GSL rewarding a lot of money.
Here are the total earnings per year from Liquipedia stats:
2010: 840k (The game had only been there for 5 months. Reported on 12 months that would be 2.0m.) 2011: 3.2m 2012: 3.9m 2013: 3.5m 2014: 3.3m 2015: 2.6m 2016: 3.0m 2017: 3.4m 2018: 3.5m 2019: 3.2m 2020: 2.2m 2021: 2.0m 2022: 2.1m 2023: 2.0m
On January 27 2024 16:38 Blargh wrote: If anyone is curious, here are the top earnings for SC2 players: Winnings 1 Serral $1,317,671 2 Maru $1,215,993 3 Rogue $1,059,971 4 Dark $1,044,351 5 INnoVation $811,251
Reynor is 6th at ~750k. While earnings aren't a great way of measuring goatness (pre LotV EU/NA were basically welfare bucks compared to the Korean field), I think it's pretty clear that all 5 of those players are legends and didn't just have a dominant year or two. They've pretty much all been top players for as long as they've been active. Mvp on the other hand is all the way down at 25th at $415k. Basically half of the rest of these. Of course, then Rain is just at $216k!!! Interestingly, if you look at the top 10 earnings, it will likely encompass all of Miz's list with the exception of Reynor being swapped with Rain!
Earnings favor later peaks way more as there is more price Money in the big Events than in the First 5 years.
That's not true, it's actually the opposite. Overall the highest earning era was from 2011 to 2014 with a peak in 2012, then we had another big years from 2017 to 2019 but after that it went all the way down. Don't forget that during WoL/HotS, the Kespa was still a thing with the proleague and the GSL rewarding a lot of money.
Here are the total earnings per year from Liquipedia stats:
2010: 840k (The game had only been there for 5 months. Reported on 12 months that would be 2.0m.) 2011: 3.2m 2012: 3.9m 2013: 3.5m 2014: 3.3m 2015: 2.6m 2016: 3.0m 2017: 3.4m 2018: 3.5m 2019: 3.2m 2020: 2.2m 2021: 2.0m 2022: 2.1m 2023: 2.0m
On the other hand the prize money in later years got shared among way fewer players
On January 27 2024 16:38 Blargh wrote: If anyone is curious, here are the top earnings for SC2 players: Winnings 1 Serral $1,317,671 2 Maru $1,215,993 3 Rogue $1,059,971 4 Dark $1,044,351 5 INnoVation $811,251
Reynor is 6th at ~750k. While earnings aren't a great way of measuring goatness (pre LotV EU/NA were basically welfare bucks compared to the Korean field), I think it's pretty clear that all 5 of those players are legends and didn't just have a dominant year or two. They've pretty much all been top players for as long as they've been active. Mvp on the other hand is all the way down at 25th at $415k. Basically half of the rest of these. Of course, then Rain is just at $216k!!! Interestingly, if you look at the top 10 earnings, it will likely encompass all of Miz's list with the exception of Reynor being swapped with Rain!
Earnings favor later peaks way more as there is more price Money in the big Events than in the First 5 years.
That's not true, it's actually the opposite. Overall the highest earning era was from 2011 to 2014 with a peak in 2012, then we had another big years from 2017 to 2019 but after that it went all the way down. Don't forget that during WoL/HotS, the Kespa was still a thing with the proleague and the GSL rewarding a lot of money.
Here are the total earnings per year from Liquipedia stats:
2010: 840k (The game had only been there for 5 months. Reported on 12 months that would be 2.0m.) 2011: 3.2m 2012: 3.9m 2013: 3.5m 2014: 3.3m 2015: 2.6m 2016: 3.0m 2017: 3.4m 2018: 3.5m 2019: 3.2m 2020: 2.2m 2021: 2.0m 2022: 2.1m 2023: 2.0m
What's hard to understand about "big events"? Yes there were a lot more events which means that if you won a lot, you'd get more money in 2012 than in 2023, but big events pay very differently. sOs got 300k for winning Katowice and Blizzcon twice, Rogue got 430k for winning Katowice and Blizzcon once. WESG paid 150k to Innovation, 200k to Maru, but the quality of the tournament is far from being the same as a Blizzcon win (or better I suppose, since it earns you more). It's a freebie until Ro8, unless you count qualifiers, and EVEN THEN, to qualify for blizzcon you had to be great during a year-long circuit, vs being great for one qualifier. Earnings is a pisspoor metric for being great, and I have no idea how it picked up any steam among the users of this website.
Yes, earnings play a part in the hype of a tournament, but if you compare a win at a Gamers8 that gets announced 4 months before it happens and has qualifiers that seed you straight to the tournament, against a Blizzcon win that had had a year-long WCS circuit, the prestige isn't quite the same (although I'm sure in the eyes of progamers, they don't give a damn, and neither would I in their spot). Blizzcon gathered the players that were the best that year, with a point system that definitely could be criticized*, but it feels a lot more prestigious than gathering the best of the months of April to August. *As an example, should the regional winners be guaranteed a spot at Blizzcon? I don't have a definite answer to that, obviously. It wasn't the case in 2013-2015, unlike the 2018 circuit for example, but it's interesting to note that it effectively happened regardless.
Same with IEM Katowice, or what it used to be - the pinnacle of the IEM circuit. Although it was tainted by its open bracket, and I would put it lower than a Blizzcon because of it. And lower still, you had Dreamhack Winters, the end of the Dreamhack circuit, tainted by the Dreamhack formats (Bo3 in semi-finals), the pure offline part meaning a decent amount of good players didn't qualify because they straight up didn't bother fly there (unlike IEM and its open Server qualifiers), and just like Katowice, a last minute qualifier which meant that you could "win the circuit" by just being in form at the right time, unlike being in form for a large amount of the year.
On January 27 2024 16:38 Blargh wrote: If anyone is curious, here are the top earnings for SC2 players: Winnings 1 Serral $1,317,671 2 Maru $1,215,993 3 Rogue $1,059,971 4 Dark $1,044,351 5 INnoVation $811,251
Reynor is 6th at ~750k. While earnings aren't a great way of measuring goatness (pre LotV EU/NA were basically welfare bucks compared to the Korean field), I think it's pretty clear that all 5 of those players are legends and didn't just have a dominant year or two. They've pretty much all been top players for as long as they've been active. Mvp on the other hand is all the way down at 25th at $415k. Basically half of the rest of these. Of course, then Rain is just at $216k!!! Interestingly, if you look at the top 10 earnings, it will likely encompass all of Miz's list with the exception of Reynor being swapped with Rain!
Earnings favor later peaks way more as there is more price Money in the big Events than in the First 5 years.
That's not true, it's actually the opposite. Overall the highest earning era was from 2011 to 2014 with a peak in 2012, then we had another big years from 2017 to 2019 but after that it went all the way down. Don't forget that during WoL/HotS, the Kespa was still a thing with the proleague and the GSL rewarding a lot of money.
Here are the total earnings per year from Liquipedia stats:
2010: 840k (The game had only been there for 5 months. Reported on 12 months that would be 2.0m.) 2011: 3.2m 2012: 3.9m 2013: 3.5m 2014: 3.3m 2015: 2.6m 2016: 3.0m 2017: 3.4m 2018: 3.5m 2019: 3.2m 2020: 2.2m 2021: 2.0m 2022: 2.1m 2023: 2.0m
and just like Katowice, a last minute qualifier which meant that you could "win the circuit" by just being in form at the right time, unlike being in form for a large amount of the year.
Doesn't that make the tournament harder to win as opposed to easier? It means all the in-form players will be at the event over the players that were in good form six months earlier and then fell off
On January 27 2024 16:38 Blargh wrote: If anyone is curious, here are the top earnings for SC2 players: Winnings 1 Serral $1,317,671 2 Maru $1,215,993 3 Rogue $1,059,971 4 Dark $1,044,351 5 INnoVation $811,251
Reynor is 6th at ~750k. While earnings aren't a great way of measuring goatness (pre LotV EU/NA were basically welfare bucks compared to the Korean field), I think it's pretty clear that all 5 of those players are legends and didn't just have a dominant year or two. They've pretty much all been top players for as long as they've been active. Mvp on the other hand is all the way down at 25th at $415k. Basically half of the rest of these. Of course, then Rain is just at $216k!!! Interestingly, if you look at the top 10 earnings, it will likely encompass all of Miz's list with the exception of Reynor being swapped with Rain!
Earnings favor later peaks way more as there is more price Money in the big Events than in the First 5 years.
That's not true, it's actually the opposite. Overall the highest earning era was from 2011 to 2014 with a peak in 2012, then we had another big years from 2017 to 2019 but after that it went all the way down. Don't forget that during WoL/HotS, the Kespa was still a thing with the proleague and the GSL rewarding a lot of money.
Here are the total earnings per year from Liquipedia stats:
2010: 840k (The game had only been there for 5 months. Reported on 12 months that would be 2.0m.) 2011: 3.2m 2012: 3.9m 2013: 3.5m 2014: 3.3m 2015: 2.6m 2016: 3.0m 2017: 3.4m 2018: 3.5m 2019: 3.2m 2020: 2.2m 2021: 2.0m 2022: 2.1m 2023: 2.0m
Pro league didn't award much prize money. The money was paid out mainly in salary back then and salary isn't included in prize money rankings because we don't know how much players got besides random leaks here and there. It is safe to say based on some of the leaks though that many Kespa pros made more in salary than prize money during those years.
And Katowice being tainted by the open bracket is a crazy take... The open bracket is the exact thing that made it the hardest event of the year, far harder than any Blizzcon. Literally every top player could be present instead of just a handful.
On January 27 2024 16:38 Blargh wrote: If anyone is curious, here are the top earnings for SC2 players: Winnings 1 Serral $1,317,671 2 Maru $1,215,993 3 Rogue $1,059,971 4 Dark $1,044,351 5 INnoVation $811,251
Reynor is 6th at ~750k. While earnings aren't a great way of measuring goatness (pre LotV EU/NA were basically welfare bucks compared to the Korean field), I think it's pretty clear that all 5 of those players are legends and didn't just have a dominant year or two. They've pretty much all been top players for as long as they've been active. Mvp on the other hand is all the way down at 25th at $415k. Basically half of the rest of these. Of course, then Rain is just at $216k!!! Interestingly, if you look at the top 10 earnings, it will likely encompass all of Miz's list with the exception of Reynor being swapped with Rain!
Earnings favor later peaks way more as there is more price Money in the big Events than in the First 5 years.
That's not true, it's actually the opposite. Overall the highest earning era was from 2011 to 2014 with a peak in 2012, then we had another big years from 2017 to 2019 but after that it went all the way down. Don't forget that during WoL/HotS, the Kespa was still a thing with the proleague and the GSL rewarding a lot of money.
Here are the total earnings per year from Liquipedia stats:
2010: 840k (The game had only been there for 5 months. Reported on 12 months that would be 2.0m.) 2011: 3.2m 2012: 3.9m 2013: 3.5m 2014: 3.3m 2015: 2.6m 2016: 3.0m 2017: 3.4m 2018: 3.5m 2019: 3.2m 2020: 2.2m 2021: 2.0m 2022: 2.1m 2023: 2.0m
and just like Katowice, a last minute qualifier which meant that you could "win the circuit" by just being in form at the right time, unlike being in form for a large amount of the year.
Doesn't that make the tournament harder to win as opposed to easier? It means all the in-form players will be at the event over the players that were in good form six months earlier and then fell off
It does, but my point wasn't about being hard, it was more about prestige, which is obviously more than just how hard a tournament is - otherwise no one would rank GSL below Blizzcon in 2013, and even diehard Serral fans today won't rank WCS EU above Katowice even if Clem, Reynor and Serral were to make the top 3 of the event while not dropping a single game to koreans. Why bother making a year-long circuit if you can just show up at the final event? It's supposed to be the "final boss" of the circuit, and some random that has played like crap all year can just show up once and win it? I mean, obviously it would have been impressive in retrospect had it happened. Yet it also kinda sucks to see outsiders in the tournament - regardless of performance. In a similar way to a korean winning WCS America while not speaking a word of english, for the people that disliked that. Or, a more similar example is replacement-men. People who shouldn't be there, because they didn't play, or failed to qualify, are in a tournament, skewing what you were building up to. And if you spent an entire year and a circuit to build up to that, well, why bother making a circuit in the first place. Although this is only mildly related to the initial point, here's an example of what I meant: IEM Season XI - Shanghai uThermal replaced Pilipili, who qualified through NA qualifiers. Insane performance by uThermal, I won't take anything away from that. It says more about the region lock and the quality of players outside EU and especially Korea in 2016 than anything else. But at the same time, why him? He failed to qualify, and in fact he wasn't even the best-player-that-came-just-short, that was Guru. Liquipedia says he was an invite through WCS standings. But why give more points to someone already well ranked? Why give the spot to someone that wasn't good enough initially? It's likely because of availability, obviously. Anyway, not anyone's fault, IEM did its best to find a suitable replacement for a last-minute issue, but it's a good example of why I think having some players qualify through an open bracket is faulty for the end of a circuit.
On January 27 2024 16:38 Blargh wrote: If anyone is curious, here are the top earnings for SC2 players: Winnings 1 Serral $1,317,671 2 Maru $1,215,993 3 Rogue $1,059,971 4 Dark $1,044,351 5 INnoVation $811,251
Reynor is 6th at ~750k. While earnings aren't a great way of measuring goatness (pre LotV EU/NA were basically welfare bucks compared to the Korean field), I think it's pretty clear that all 5 of those players are legends and didn't just have a dominant year or two. They've pretty much all been top players for as long as they've been active. Mvp on the other hand is all the way down at 25th at $415k. Basically half of the rest of these. Of course, then Rain is just at $216k!!! Interestingly, if you look at the top 10 earnings, it will likely encompass all of Miz's list with the exception of Reynor being swapped with Rain!
Earnings favor later peaks way more as there is more price Money in the big Events than in the First 5 years.
That's not true, it's actually the opposite. Overall the highest earning era was from 2011 to 2014 with a peak in 2012, then we had another big years from 2017 to 2019 but after that it went all the way down. Don't forget that during WoL/HotS, the Kespa was still a thing with the proleague and the GSL rewarding a lot of money.
Here are the total earnings per year from Liquipedia stats:
2010: 840k (The game had only been there for 5 months. Reported on 12 months that would be 2.0m.) 2011: 3.2m 2012: 3.9m 2013: 3.5m 2014: 3.3m 2015: 2.6m 2016: 3.0m 2017: 3.4m 2018: 3.5m 2019: 3.2m 2020: 2.2m 2021: 2.0m 2022: 2.1m 2023: 2.0m
Pro league didn't award much prize money. The money was paid out mainly in salary back then and salary isn't included in prize money rankings because we don't know how much players got besides random leaks here and there. It is safe to say based on some of the leaks though that many Kespa pros made more in salary than prize money during those years.
And Katowice being tainted by the open bracket is a crazy take... The open bracket is the exact thing that made it the hardest event of the year, far harder than any Blizzcon. Literally every top player could be present instead of just a handful.
Every top player... that could afford the plane ticket.
On January 27 2024 16:38 Blargh wrote: If anyone is curious, here are the top earnings for SC2 players: Winnings 1 Serral $1,317,671 2 Maru $1,215,993 3 Rogue $1,059,971 4 Dark $1,044,351 5 INnoVation $811,251
Reynor is 6th at ~750k. While earnings aren't a great way of measuring goatness (pre LotV EU/NA were basically welfare bucks compared to the Korean field), I think it's pretty clear that all 5 of those players are legends and didn't just have a dominant year or two. They've pretty much all been top players for as long as they've been active. Mvp on the other hand is all the way down at 25th at $415k. Basically half of the rest of these. Of course, then Rain is just at $216k!!! Interestingly, if you look at the top 10 earnings, it will likely encompass all of Miz's list with the exception of Reynor being swapped with Rain!
Earnings favor later peaks way more as there is more price Money in the big Events than in the First 5 years.
That's not true, it's actually the opposite. Overall the highest earning era was from 2011 to 2014 with a peak in 2012, then we had another big years from 2017 to 2019 but after that it went all the way down. Don't forget that during WoL/HotS, the Kespa was still a thing with the proleague and the GSL rewarding a lot of money.
Here are the total earnings per year from Liquipedia stats:
2010: 840k (The game had only been there for 5 months. Reported on 12 months that would be 2.0m.) 2011: 3.2m 2012: 3.9m 2013: 3.5m 2014: 3.3m 2015: 2.6m 2016: 3.0m 2017: 3.4m 2018: 3.5m 2019: 3.2m 2020: 2.2m 2021: 2.0m 2022: 2.1m 2023: 2.0m
Pro league didn't award much prize money. The money was paid out mainly in salary back then and salary isn't included in prize money rankings because we don't know how much players got besides random leaks here and there. It is safe to say based on some of the leaks though that many Kespa pros made more in salary than prize money during those years.
And Katowice being tainted by the open bracket is a crazy take... The open bracket is the exact thing that made it the hardest event of the year, far harder than any Blizzcon. Literally every top player could be present instead of just a handful.
I wouldn't say Katowice is "tainted" by the open bracket, but there clearly is a difference in prestige if you can just show up for an event or have to qualify for it throughout the year.
On January 27 2024 16:38 Blargh wrote: If anyone is curious, here are the top earnings for SC2 players: Winnings 1 Serral $1,317,671 2 Maru $1,215,993 3 Rogue $1,059,971 4 Dark $1,044,351 5 INnoVation $811,251
Reynor is 6th at ~750k. While earnings aren't a great way of measuring goatness (pre LotV EU/NA were basically welfare bucks compared to the Korean field), I think it's pretty clear that all 5 of those players are legends and didn't just have a dominant year or two. They've pretty much all been top players for as long as they've been active. Mvp on the other hand is all the way down at 25th at $415k. Basically half of the rest of these. Of course, then Rain is just at $216k!!! Interestingly, if you look at the top 10 earnings, it will likely encompass all of Miz's list with the exception of Reynor being swapped with Rain!
Earnings favor later peaks way more as there is more price Money in the big Events than in the First 5 years.
That's not true, it's actually the opposite. Overall the highest earning era was from 2011 to 2014 with a peak in 2012, then we had another big years from 2017 to 2019 but after that it went all the way down. Don't forget that during WoL/HotS, the Kespa was still a thing with the proleague and the GSL rewarding a lot of money.
Here are the total earnings per year from Liquipedia stats:
2010: 840k (The game had only been there for 5 months. Reported on 12 months that would be 2.0m.) 2011: 3.2m 2012: 3.9m 2013: 3.5m 2014: 3.3m 2015: 2.6m 2016: 3.0m 2017: 3.4m 2018: 3.5m 2019: 3.2m 2020: 2.2m 2021: 2.0m 2022: 2.1m 2023: 2.0m
What's hard to understand about "big events"? Yes there were a lot more events which means that if you won a lot, you'd get more money in 2012 than in 2023, but big events pay very differently. sOs got 300k for winning Katowice and Blizzcon twice, Rogue got 430k for winning Katowice and Blizzcon once. WESG paid 150k to Innovation, 200k to Maru, but the quality of the tournament is far from being the same as a Blizzcon win (or better I suppose, since it earns you more). It's a freebie until Ro8, unless you count qualifiers, and EVEN THEN, to qualify for blizzcon you had to be great during a year-long circuit, vs being great for one qualifier. Earnings is a pisspoor metric for being great, and I have no idea how it picked up any steam among the users of this website.
Yes, earnings play a part in the hype of a tournament, but if you compare a win at a Gamers8 that gets announced 4 months before it happens and has qualifiers that seed you straight to the tournament, against a Blizzcon win that had had a year-long WCS circuit, the prestige isn't quite the same (although I'm sure in the eyes of progamers, they don't give a damn, and neither would I in their spot). Blizzcon gathered the players that were the best that year, with a point system that definitely could be criticized*, but it feels a lot more prestigious than gathering the best of the months of April to August. *As an example, should the regional winners be guaranteed a spot at Blizzcon? I don't have a definite answer to that, obviously. It wasn't the case in 2013-2015, unlike the 2018 circuit for example, but it's interesting to note that it effectively happened regardless.
Same with IEM Katowice, or what it used to be - the pinnacle of the IEM circuit. Although it was tainted by its open bracket, and I would put it lower than a Blizzcon because of it. And lower still, you had Dreamhack Winters, the end of the Dreamhack circuit, tainted by the Dreamhack formats (Bo3 in semi-finals), the pure offline part meaning a decent amount of good players didn't qualify because they straight up didn't bother fly there (unlike IEM and its open Server qualifiers), and just like Katowice, a last minute qualifier which meant that you could "win the circuit" by just being in form at the right time, unlike being in form for a large amount of the year.
I was thinking about big events. Compare the top prize of big events back then and now and you'll see. Sure at that time there was no tournament that had a 500k$ prize pool but that's 2 tournaments per year nowadays, the rest of them rarely get over 50k$. Back then we had a lot of tournaments that had 100-150k$ prize pool. So yes, the biggest tournaments are bigger nowadays, but the average big events used to be bigger before.
On January 27 2024 16:38 Blargh wrote: If anyone is curious, here are the top earnings for SC2 players: Winnings 1 Serral $1,317,671 2 Maru $1,215,993 3 Rogue $1,059,971 4 Dark $1,044,351 5 INnoVation $811,251
Reynor is 6th at ~750k. While earnings aren't a great way of measuring goatness (pre LotV EU/NA were basically welfare bucks compared to the Korean field), I think it's pretty clear that all 5 of those players are legends and didn't just have a dominant year or two. They've pretty much all been top players for as long as they've been active. Mvp on the other hand is all the way down at 25th at $415k. Basically half of the rest of these. Of course, then Rain is just at $216k!!! Interestingly, if you look at the top 10 earnings, it will likely encompass all of Miz's list with the exception of Reynor being swapped with Rain!
Earnings favor later peaks way more as there is more price Money in the big Events than in the First 5 years.
That's not true, it's actually the opposite. Overall the highest earning era was from 2011 to 2014 with a peak in 2012, then we had another big years from 2017 to 2019 but after that it went all the way down. Don't forget that during WoL/HotS, the Kespa was still a thing with the proleague and the GSL rewarding a lot of money.
Here are the total earnings per year from Liquipedia stats:
2010: 840k (The game had only been there for 5 months. Reported on 12 months that would be 2.0m.) 2011: 3.2m 2012: 3.9m 2013: 3.5m 2014: 3.3m 2015: 2.6m 2016: 3.0m 2017: 3.4m 2018: 3.5m 2019: 3.2m 2020: 2.2m 2021: 2.0m 2022: 2.1m 2023: 2.0m
What's hard to understand about "big events"? Yes there were a lot more events which means that if you won a lot, you'd get more money in 2012 than in 2023, but big events pay very differently. sOs got 300k for winning Katowice and Blizzcon twice, Rogue got 430k for winning Katowice and Blizzcon once. WESG paid 150k to Innovation, 200k to Maru, but the quality of the tournament is far from being the same as a Blizzcon win (or better I suppose, since it earns you more). It's a freebie until Ro8, unless you count qualifiers, and EVEN THEN, to qualify for blizzcon you had to be great during a year-long circuit, vs being great for one qualifier. Earnings is a pisspoor metric for being great, and I have no idea how it picked up any steam among the users of this website.
Yes, earnings play a part in the hype of a tournament, but if you compare a win at a Gamers8 that gets announced 4 months before it happens and has qualifiers that seed you straight to the tournament, against a Blizzcon win that had had a year-long WCS circuit, the prestige isn't quite the same (although I'm sure in the eyes of progamers, they don't give a damn, and neither would I in their spot). Blizzcon gathered the players that were the best that year, with a point system that definitely could be criticized*, but it feels a lot more prestigious than gathering the best of the months of April to August. *As an example, should the regional winners be guaranteed a spot at Blizzcon? I don't have a definite answer to that, obviously. It wasn't the case in 2013-2015, unlike the 2018 circuit for example, but it's interesting to note that it effectively happened regardless.
Same with IEM Katowice, or what it used to be - the pinnacle of the IEM circuit. Although it was tainted by its open bracket, and I would put it lower than a Blizzcon because of it. And lower still, you had Dreamhack Winters, the end of the Dreamhack circuit, tainted by the Dreamhack formats (Bo3 in semi-finals), the pure offline part meaning a decent amount of good players didn't qualify because they straight up didn't bother fly there (unlike IEM and its open Server qualifiers), and just like Katowice, a last minute qualifier which meant that you could "win the circuit" by just being in form at the right time, unlike being in form for a large amount of the year.
I was thinking about big events. Compare the top prize of big events back then and now and you'll see. Sure at that time there was no tournament that had a 500k$ prize pool but that's 2 tournaments per year nowadays, the rest of them rarely get over 50k$. Back then we had a lot of tournaments that had 100-150k$ prize pool. So yes, the biggest tournaments are bigger nowadays, but the average big events used to be bigger before.
I mean imagine mvp would hwve gotten 280k instead of 50k for his blizzcon win and like 200k instead of 20k for his wcg (which would be the equivalent to wesg for me) and suddenly he is at like 800k instead of 400k.
On January 27 2024 16:38 Blargh wrote: If anyone is curious, here are the top earnings for SC2 players: Winnings 1 Serral $1,317,671 2 Maru $1,215,993 3 Rogue $1,059,971 4 Dark $1,044,351 5 INnoVation $811,251
Reynor is 6th at ~750k. While earnings aren't a great way of measuring goatness (pre LotV EU/NA were basically welfare bucks compared to the Korean field), I think it's pretty clear that all 5 of those players are legends and didn't just have a dominant year or two. They've pretty much all been top players for as long as they've been active. Mvp on the other hand is all the way down at 25th at $415k. Basically half of the rest of these. Of course, then Rain is just at $216k!!! Interestingly, if you look at the top 10 earnings, it will likely encompass all of Miz's list with the exception of Reynor being swapped with Rain!
Earnings favor later peaks way more as there is more price Money in the big Events than in the First 5 years.
That's not true, it's actually the opposite. Overall the highest earning era was from 2011 to 2014 with a peak in 2012, then we had another big years from 2017 to 2019 but after that it went all the way down. Don't forget that during WoL/HotS, the Kespa was still a thing with the proleague and the GSL rewarding a lot of money.
Here are the total earnings per year from Liquipedia stats:
2010: 840k (The game had only been there for 5 months. Reported on 12 months that would be 2.0m.) 2011: 3.2m 2012: 3.9m 2013: 3.5m 2014: 3.3m 2015: 2.6m 2016: 3.0m 2017: 3.4m 2018: 3.5m 2019: 3.2m 2020: 2.2m 2021: 2.0m 2022: 2.1m 2023: 2.0m
What's hard to understand about "big events"? Yes there were a lot more events which means that if you won a lot, you'd get more money in 2012 than in 2023, but big events pay very differently. sOs got 300k for winning Katowice and Blizzcon twice, Rogue got 430k for winning Katowice and Blizzcon once. WESG paid 150k to Innovation, 200k to Maru, but the quality of the tournament is far from being the same as a Blizzcon win (or better I suppose, since it earns you more). It's a freebie until Ro8, unless you count qualifiers, and EVEN THEN, to qualify for blizzcon you had to be great during a year-long circuit, vs being great for one qualifier. Earnings is a pisspoor metric for being great, and I have no idea how it picked up any steam among the users of this website.
Yes, earnings play a part in the hype of a tournament, but if you compare a win at a Gamers8 that gets announced 4 months before it happens and has qualifiers that seed you straight to the tournament, against a Blizzcon win that had had a year-long WCS circuit, the prestige isn't quite the same (although I'm sure in the eyes of progamers, they don't give a damn, and neither would I in their spot). Blizzcon gathered the players that were the best that year, with a point system that definitely could be criticized*, but it feels a lot more prestigious than gathering the best of the months of April to August. *As an example, should the regional winners be guaranteed a spot at Blizzcon? I don't have a definite answer to that, obviously. It wasn't the case in 2013-2015, unlike the 2018 circuit for example, but it's interesting to note that it effectively happened regardless.
Same with IEM Katowice, or what it used to be - the pinnacle of the IEM circuit. Although it was tainted by its open bracket, and I would put it lower than a Blizzcon because of it. And lower still, you had Dreamhack Winters, the end of the Dreamhack circuit, tainted by the Dreamhack formats (Bo3 in semi-finals), the pure offline part meaning a decent amount of good players didn't qualify because they straight up didn't bother fly there (unlike IEM and its open Server qualifiers), and just like Katowice, a last minute qualifier which meant that you could "win the circuit" by just being in form at the right time, unlike being in form for a large amount of the year.
I was thinking about big events. Compare the top prize of big events back then and now and you'll see. Sure at that time there was no tournament that had a 500k$ prize pool but that's 2 tournaments per year nowadays, the rest of them rarely get over 50k$. Back then we had a lot of tournaments that had 100-150k$ prize pool. So yes, the biggest tournaments are bigger nowadays, but the average big events used to be bigger before.
I mean imagine mvp would hwve gotten 280k instead of 50k for his blizzcon win and like 200k instead of 20k for his wcg (which would be the equivalent to wesg for me) and suddenly he is at like 800k instead of 400k.
I think that's fair. A lot of the prize pools were mismatched with the competition of the event, WECG being some of the most egregious and well, any US/EU WCS before 2016. But I think you shouldn't increase the weight of a tournament because its prize pool is high, but you can increase the weight of a tournament because its competitiveness is. So I would never give high priority to WCG/WECG. The Korean qualifiers for those tournaments were always more competitive than the actual tournaments. You can give Mvp "$200k" for his Blizzcon win, but I don't think you can give him $200k for his WCG where he had to beat Xigua in the finals...
I think if Mvp maintained comparable form for a few more years, he could be seen at the same level as Serral or Maru, but because he expired in less than 2 years, I don't think he gets to. He was essentially irrelevant by 2014. Not GOAT material!
On January 27 2024 16:38 Blargh wrote: If anyone is curious, here are the top earnings for SC2 players: Winnings 1 Serral $1,317,671 2 Maru $1,215,993 3 Rogue $1,059,971 4 Dark $1,044,351 5 INnoVation $811,251
Reynor is 6th at ~750k. While earnings aren't a great way of measuring goatness (pre LotV EU/NA were basically welfare bucks compared to the Korean field), I think it's pretty clear that all 5 of those players are legends and didn't just have a dominant year or two. They've pretty much all been top players for as long as they've been active. Mvp on the other hand is all the way down at 25th at $415k. Basically half of the rest of these. Of course, then Rain is just at $216k!!! Interestingly, if you look at the top 10 earnings, it will likely encompass all of Miz's list with the exception of Reynor being swapped with Rain!
Earnings favor later peaks way more as there is more price Money in the big Events than in the First 5 years.
That's not true, it's actually the opposite. Overall the highest earning era was from 2011 to 2014 with a peak in 2012, then we had another big years from 2017 to 2019 but after that it went all the way down. Don't forget that during WoL/HotS, the Kespa was still a thing with the proleague and the GSL rewarding a lot of money.
Here are the total earnings per year from Liquipedia stats:
2010: 840k (The game had only been there for 5 months. Reported on 12 months that would be 2.0m.) 2011: 3.2m 2012: 3.9m 2013: 3.5m 2014: 3.3m 2015: 2.6m 2016: 3.0m 2017: 3.4m 2018: 3.5m 2019: 3.2m 2020: 2.2m 2021: 2.0m 2022: 2.1m 2023: 2.0m
What's hard to understand about "big events"? Yes there were a lot more events which means that if you won a lot, you'd get more money in 2012 than in 2023, but big events pay very differently. sOs got 300k for winning Katowice and Blizzcon twice, Rogue got 430k for winning Katowice and Blizzcon once. WESG paid 150k to Innovation, 200k to Maru, but the quality of the tournament is far from being the same as a Blizzcon win (or better I suppose, since it earns you more). It's a freebie until Ro8, unless you count qualifiers, and EVEN THEN, to qualify for blizzcon you had to be great during a year-long circuit, vs being great for one qualifier. Earnings is a pisspoor metric for being great, and I have no idea how it picked up any steam among the users of this website.
Yes, earnings play a part in the hype of a tournament, but if you compare a win at a Gamers8 that gets announced 4 months before it happens and has qualifiers that seed you straight to the tournament, against a Blizzcon win that had had a year-long WCS circuit, the prestige isn't quite the same (although I'm sure in the eyes of progamers, they don't give a damn, and neither would I in their spot). Blizzcon gathered the players that were the best that year, with a point system that definitely could be criticized*, but it feels a lot more prestigious than gathering the best of the months of April to August. *As an example, should the regional winners be guaranteed a spot at Blizzcon? I don't have a definite answer to that, obviously. It wasn't the case in 2013-2015, unlike the 2018 circuit for example, but it's interesting to note that it effectively happened regardless.
Same with IEM Katowice, or what it used to be - the pinnacle of the IEM circuit. Although it was tainted by its open bracket, and I would put it lower than a Blizzcon because of it. And lower still, you had Dreamhack Winters, the end of the Dreamhack circuit, tainted by the Dreamhack formats (Bo3 in semi-finals), the pure offline part meaning a decent amount of good players didn't qualify because they straight up didn't bother fly there (unlike IEM and its open Server qualifiers), and just like Katowice, a last minute qualifier which meant that you could "win the circuit" by just being in form at the right time, unlike being in form for a large amount of the year.
I was thinking about big events. Compare the top prize of big events back then and now and you'll see. Sure at that time there was no tournament that had a 500k$ prize pool but that's 2 tournaments per year nowadays, the rest of them rarely get over 50k$. Back then we had a lot of tournaments that had 100-150k$ prize pool. So yes, the biggest tournaments are bigger nowadays, but the average big events used to be bigger before.
I mean imagine mvp would hwve gotten 280k instead of 50k for his blizzcon win and like 200k instead of 20k for his wcg (which would be the equivalent to wesg for me) and suddenly he is at like 800k instead of 400k.
I think that's fair. A lot of the prize pools were mismatched with the competition of the event, WECG being some of the most egregious and well, any US/EU WCS before 2016. But I think you shouldn't increase the weight of a tournament because its prize pool is high, but you can increase the weight of a tournament because its competitiveness is. So I would never give high priority to WCG/WECG. The Korean qualifiers for those tournaments were always more competitive than the actual tournaments. You can give Mvp "$200k" for his Blizzcon win, but I don't think you can give him $200k for his WCG where he had to beat Xigua in the finals...
I think if Mvp maintained comparable form for a few more years, he could be seen at the same level as Serral or Maru, but because he expired in less than 2 years, I don't think he gets to. He was essentially irrelevant by 2014. Not GOAT material!
I mean you brought up prize money so i just presented why prize money favors players that started to peak later than earlier.
On January 27 2024 16:38 Blargh wrote: If anyone is curious, here are the top earnings for SC2 players: Winnings 1 Serral $1,317,671 2 Maru $1,215,993 3 Rogue $1,059,971 4 Dark $1,044,351 5 INnoVation $811,251
Reynor is 6th at ~750k. While earnings aren't a great way of measuring goatness (pre LotV EU/NA were basically welfare bucks compared to the Korean field), I think it's pretty clear that all 5 of those players are legends and didn't just have a dominant year or two. They've pretty much all been top players for as long as they've been active. Mvp on the other hand is all the way down at 25th at $415k. Basically half of the rest of these. Of course, then Rain is just at $216k!!! Interestingly, if you look at the top 10 earnings, it will likely encompass all of Miz's list with the exception of Reynor being swapped with Rain!
Earnings favor later peaks way more as there is more price Money in the big Events than in the First 5 years.
That's not true, it's actually the opposite. Overall the highest earning era was from 2011 to 2014 with a peak in 2012, then we had another big years from 2017 to 2019 but after that it went all the way down. Don't forget that during WoL/HotS, the Kespa was still a thing with the proleague and the GSL rewarding a lot of money.
Here are the total earnings per year from Liquipedia stats:
2010: 840k (The game had only been there for 5 months. Reported on 12 months that would be 2.0m.) 2011: 3.2m 2012: 3.9m 2013: 3.5m 2014: 3.3m 2015: 2.6m 2016: 3.0m 2017: 3.4m 2018: 3.5m 2019: 3.2m 2020: 2.2m 2021: 2.0m 2022: 2.1m 2023: 2.0m
What's hard to understand about "big events"? Yes there were a lot more events which means that if you won a lot, you'd get more money in 2012 than in 2023, but big events pay very differently. sOs got 300k for winning Katowice and Blizzcon twice, Rogue got 430k for winning Katowice and Blizzcon once. WESG paid 150k to Innovation, 200k to Maru, but the quality of the tournament is far from being the same as a Blizzcon win (or better I suppose, since it earns you more). It's a freebie until Ro8, unless you count qualifiers, and EVEN THEN, to qualify for blizzcon you had to be great during a year-long circuit, vs being great for one qualifier. Earnings is a pisspoor metric for being great, and I have no idea how it picked up any steam among the users of this website.
Yes, earnings play a part in the hype of a tournament, but if you compare a win at a Gamers8 that gets announced 4 months before it happens and has qualifiers that seed you straight to the tournament, against a Blizzcon win that had had a year-long WCS circuit, the prestige isn't quite the same (although I'm sure in the eyes of progamers, they don't give a damn, and neither would I in their spot). Blizzcon gathered the players that were the best that year, with a point system that definitely could be criticized*, but it feels a lot more prestigious than gathering the best of the months of April to August. *As an example, should the regional winners be guaranteed a spot at Blizzcon? I don't have a definite answer to that, obviously. It wasn't the case in 2013-2015, unlike the 2018 circuit for example, but it's interesting to note that it effectively happened regardless.
Same with IEM Katowice, or what it used to be - the pinnacle of the IEM circuit. Although it was tainted by its open bracket, and I would put it lower than a Blizzcon because of it. And lower still, you had Dreamhack Winters, the end of the Dreamhack circuit, tainted by the Dreamhack formats (Bo3 in semi-finals), the pure offline part meaning a decent amount of good players didn't qualify because they straight up didn't bother fly there (unlike IEM and its open Server qualifiers), and just like Katowice, a last minute qualifier which meant that you could "win the circuit" by just being in form at the right time, unlike being in form for a large amount of the year.
I was thinking about big events. Compare the top prize of big events back then and now and you'll see. Sure at that time there was no tournament that had a 500k$ prize pool but that's 2 tournaments per year nowadays, the rest of them rarely get over 50k$. Back then we had a lot of tournaments that had 100-150k$ prize pool. So yes, the biggest tournaments are bigger nowadays, but the average big events used to be bigger before.
I mean imagine mvp would hwve gotten 280k instead of 50k for his blizzcon win and like 200k instead of 20k for his wcg (which would be the equivalent to wesg for me) and suddenly he is at like 800k instead of 400k.
I think that's fair. A lot of the prize pools were mismatched with the competition of the event, WECG being some of the most egregious and well, any US/EU WCS before 2016. But I think you shouldn't increase the weight of a tournament because its prize pool is high, but you can increase the weight of a tournament because its competitiveness is. So I would never give high priority to WCG/WECG. The Korean qualifiers for those tournaments were always more competitive than the actual tournaments. You can give Mvp "$200k" for his Blizzcon win, but I don't think you can give him $200k for his WCG where he had to beat Xigua in the finals...
I think if Mvp maintained comparable form for a few more years, he could be seen at the same level as Serral or Maru, but because he expired in less than 2 years, I don't think he gets to. He was essentially irrelevant by 2014. Not GOAT material!
I mean you brought up prize money so i just presented why prize money favors players that started to peak later than earlier.
Sorry, my point wasn't really that prize money was the best metric for judging how well someone performed, but it certainly is correlative of that. You can disregard Maru's two WECG's and he'd still be at $900k. His GSLs weren't worth more than Mvp's (~$35k for Maru, ~$45k for Mvp, and ignoring the ~25% inflation since 2011 too). Close to the majority of Maru's earnings are from high placements in Korean starcraft leagues and global finals (GSL/SSL/WCS KR) at $500k even. Mvp has about $325k from those leagues. The big difference between the two comes from Maru having placed top 8 in Korean leagues for three times as long as Mvp's brief dominant reign.
Also, worth noting that the total amount of money in SC2 has decreased significantly since 2020. If you adjust for inflation, 2011-14 would be the biggest years of SC2 earnings, and 2021-2023 would be the worst, especially after inflation (~25% since 2012). 2010: 2% 2011: 8% 2012: 10% 2013: 10% 2014: 9% 2015: 7.5% 2016: 9% 2017: 11% 2018: 11% 2019: 10% 2020: 5.5% 2021: 4.5% 2022: 6% 2023: 5.5%
Obviously now in 2024, where GSL finals earn you a whopping $7500, its sad to even compare. But the competition is also probably proportionally worse now vs 2013. I don't really weigh Maru's 2023 wins highly. Even his 2018 ones are nothing compared to his 2013 WCS KR and 2015 SSL. But I think it becomes infinitely harder to judge when considering each years competition.
I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on.
zest may only be number 6 on the list of best SC2 players of all time, but he's definitely number 1 on the list of most handsome SC2 players of all time.
On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote: I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on.
maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek
On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote: I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on.
maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek
theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke.
On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote: I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on.
maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek
theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke.
Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem
On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote: I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on.
maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek
theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke.
Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem
What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s???
On January 28 2024 07:39 spirit76 wrote: MVP should be on this list. soO is not top 10. theres no way rain or SoS are above MVP.
Sure, because 3 world championships in 3 years during the peak of good players being active is something that people achieve all the time...
On January 28 2024 19:37 negativedge wrote: zest may only be number 6 on the list of best SC2 players of all time, but he's definitely number 1 on the list of most handsome SC2 players of all time.
Now, that is also an interesting top10. Let me start thinking about the roaster: Zest, Showtime, Clem, Reynor, herO, Dark (mustache version), ...
On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote: I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on.
maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek
theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke.
Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem
What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s???
"Much stronger" was a bit optimistic, but in the end, Reynor is a world champion and has more Premier wins, while also being active in a more competitive timeframe.
On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote: I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on.
maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek
theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke.
Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem
What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s???
"Much stronger" was a bit optimistic, but in the end, Reynor is a world champion and has more Premier wins, while also being active in a more competitive timeframe.
Wait what?? When Mvp was playing there were hundreds of pro players, young and motivated, practicing all day in teamhouses with coaches and analysts. During Reynor's timeframe there were/are maybe 30 serious progamers practicing from home
On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote: I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on.
maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek
theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke.
Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem
Really? Not even the most dominant player in his region, during the least competitive era + Zerg favored era, comparable to mvp? He even tried GSL. I would even maybe go as far as to argue that Oliveira has a better case than Reynor in a foreign goat list, as the first foreign Terran to win a WC, in an incredible run
On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote: I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on.
maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek
theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke.
Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem
Really? Not even the most dominant player in his region, during the least competitive era + Zerg favored era, comparable to mvp? He even tried GSL. I would even maybe go as far as to argue that Oliveira has a better case than Reynor in a foreign goat list, as the first foreign Terran to win a WC, in an incredible run
I maybe well, wouldn’t go that far :p
Oliveira isn’t even a lock to be at the business end of regional finals, regular international tournies, or even matched what Reynor did in Korea.
One of the all-time great tournament weekends, and a lot of talent undoubtedly but I can’t think of a single area he has Reynor beat in. And they’re about the same age too, if Oliveira was 15/16 now and had done what he did you could maybe make a ‘it’s a shame the scene is gradually declining because this prodigy is probably going to see the game shrink before they get to show their talent’ kind of case. As some would argue that Jangbi and Fantasy didn’t get to climb as far as they could have in the GOAT list as BW ended in its Kespa form.
On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote: I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on.
maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek
theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke.
Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem
Really? Not even the most dominant player in his region, during the least competitive era + Zerg favored era, comparable to mvp? He even tried GSL. I would even maybe go as far as to argue that Oliveira has a better case than Reynor in a foreign goat list, as the first foreign Terran to win a WC, in an incredible run
I maybe well, wouldn’t go that far :p
Oliveira isn’t even a lock to be at the business end of regional finals, regular international tournies, or even matched what Reynor did in Korea.
One of the all-time great tournament weekends, and a lot of talent undoubtedly but I can’t think of a single area he has Reynor beat in. And they’re about the same age too, if Oliveira was 15/16 now and had done what he did you could maybe make a ‘it’s a shame the scene is gradually declining because this prodigy is probably going to see the game shrink before they get to show their talent’ kind of case. As some would argue that Jangbi and Fantasy didn’t get to climb as far as they could have in the GOAT list as BW ended in its Kespa form.
It was an exaggeration but still, Reynor in nowhere near mvp in a goat list.
On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote: I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on.
maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek
theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke.
Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem
What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s???
"Much stronger" was a bit optimistic, but in the end, Reynor is a world champion and has more Premier wins, while also being active in a more competitive timeframe.
Wait what?? When Mvp was playing there were hundreds of pro players, young and motivated, practicing all day in teamhouses with coaches and analysts. During Reynor's timeframe there were/are maybe 30 serious progamers practicing from home
Mvp mostly accomplished his feats in the pre-Kespa/Proleague era, when the game was fresh and people tried to figure it out. He had one good year and was basically done afterwards. Reynor is now in the top 5 of the world for years, top 10 easily by 5+ years. He won his World Championship in a tournament in which all three of the usual GOAT-Contenders were present, beating one of them (Maru) in the process, while also winning against the biggest Challenger (Dark) and probably the best Protoss (Zest) of all time. That tournament alone is far more impressive than Mvp's GSLs, won against players you probably wouldn't even put into a Top 50...or when exactly do TOP, MarineKing and Squirtle come in your personal list of the best players of all time?
And shocker, Poopi overvalues a korean terran while giving the "so imbalaced"-theme another spin. Reynor is literally one of only four players who created that "zerg era". Seeing how in Mvp's year the entire finalist-board of GSL is basically terran blue, you could make the argument that terran was just OP that year, but who would ever claim that, huh?
On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote: I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on.
maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek
theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke.
Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem
What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s???
"Much stronger" was a bit optimistic, but in the end, Reynor is a world champion and has more Premier wins, while also being active in a more competitive timeframe.
Wait what?? When Mvp was playing there were hundreds of pro players, young and motivated, practicing all day in teamhouses with coaches and analysts. During Reynor's timeframe there were/are maybe 30 serious progamers practicing from home
Mvp mostly accomplished his feats in the pre-Kespa/Proleague era, when the game was fresh and people tried to figure it out. He had one good year and was basically done afterwards. Reynor is now in the top 5 of the world for years, top 10 easily by 5+ years. He won his World Championship in a tournament in which all three of the usual GOAT-Contenders were present, beating one of them (Maru) in the process, while also winning against the biggest Challenger (Dark) and probably the best Protoss (Zest) of all time. That tournament alone is far more impressive than Mvp's GSLs, won against players you probably wouldn't even put into a Top 50...or when exactly do TOP, MarineKing and Squirtle come in your personal list of the best players of all time?
And shocker, Poopi overvalues a korean terran while giving the "so imbalaced"-theme another spin. Reynor is literally one of only four players who created that "zerg era". Seeing how in Mvp's year the entire finalist-board of GSL is basically terran blue, you could make the argument that terran was just OP that year, but who would ever claim that, huh?
I really don't think this is true. Reynor's win is impressive, but the current era of SC2 is laughable in terms of competitiveness. I'd say anything past 2018 is vastly inferior to pre-2018. Post-pandemic? Even worse. Now there are literally only 16 Koreans who can even be considered "professional" SC2 players. I would say that any achievements in the last 3 years should be valued at close to 1/3 as much as before. You can just look at the effort players put in and it's laughable in comparison to how it was in 2011-2016. Players would be practicing all day, have teams and coaches all working their asses off, with a field of players roughly 3x larger. I'd even say that Top 4 of GSL 2012 was more impressive than winning the global finals in 2018-2023.
Sure, Reynor plays better than any player from 2016 did, but the strength and accomplishment of a player is always relative to the state of the competition at the time. In 10 years, there's probably going to be some player who has stuck with SC2 for all 10 years winning everything despite the scene being dead, and you'll be calling them the GOAT for winning the most tournaments out of any player ever.
I don't even feel like Maru or Dark try any more. You can see it in their play. No one is invested in the game the same way people were before. Basically no one has that burning fire in their heart to win it all. Sure, people want to win because money is good to have. But it's not what it was. Players were so invested back in the early days of GSL. Players literally gave up all of their home life, gave up good jobs, lived in grody team houses, just so they could be the best. No one does that now.
On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote: I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on.
maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek
theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke.
Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem
What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s???
"Much stronger" was a bit optimistic, but in the end, Reynor is a world champion and has more Premier wins, while also being active in a more competitive timeframe.
Wait what?? When Mvp was playing there were hundreds of pro players, young and motivated, practicing all day in teamhouses with coaches and analysts. During Reynor's timeframe there were/are maybe 30 serious progamers practicing from home
Mvp mostly accomplished his feats in the pre-Kespa/Proleague era, when the game was fresh and people tried to figure it out. He had one good year and was basically done afterwards. Reynor is now in the top 5 of the world for years, top 10 easily by 5+ years. He won his World Championship in a tournament in which all three of the usual GOAT-Contenders were present, beating one of them (Maru) in the process, while also winning against the biggest Challenger (Dark) and probably the best Protoss (Zest) of all time. That tournament alone is far more impressive than Mvp's GSLs, won against players you probably wouldn't even put into a Top 50...or when exactly do TOP, MarineKing and Squirtle come in your personal list of the best players of all time?
And shocker, Poopi overvalues a korean terran while giving the "so imbalaced"-theme another spin. Reynor is literally one of only four players who created that "zerg era". Seeing how in Mvp's year the entire finalist-board of GSL is basically terran blue, you could make the argument that terran was just OP that year, but who would ever claim that, huh?
I really don't think this is true. Reynor's win is impressive, but the current era of SC2 is laughable in terms of competitiveness. I'd say anything past 2018 is vastly inferior to pre-2018. Post-pandemic? Even worse. Now there are literally only 16 Koreans who can even be considered "professional" SC2 players. I would say that any achievements in the last 3 years should be valued at close to 1/3 as much as before. You can just look at the effort players put in and it's laughable in comparison to how it was in 2011-2016. Players would be practicing all day, have teams and coaches all working their asses off, with a field of players roughly 3x larger. I'd even say that Top 4 of GSL 2012 was more impressive than winning the global finals in 2018-2023.
Sure, Reynor plays better than any player from 2016 did, but the strength and accomplishment of a player is always relative to the state of the competition at the time. In 10 years, there's probably going to be some player who has stuck with SC2 for all 10 years winning everything despite the scene being dead, and you'll be calling them the GOAT for winning the most tournaments out of any player ever.
I don't even feel like Maru or Dark try any more. You can see it in their play. No one is invested in the game the same way people were before. Basically no one has that burning fire in their heart to win it all. Sure, people want to win because money is good to have. But it's not what it was. Players were so invested back in the early days of GSL. Players literally gave up all of their home life, gave up good jobs, lived in grody team houses, just so they could be the best. No one does that now.
2018 already is a pretty heavy anti-Serral take. Proleague shut down mid-to-end 2016, so if anything 2017 at the latest should be the starting point of this "ending era". But I can already see the foam on some peoples mouth if you wanted to explain to them that Marus and Rogues trophies are basically just worth 1/3 of anything before them.
Next: I think it is extremly weird to mush everything pre-2016 into one era, saying winning the very first GSL is as much of an accomplishment then winning one in 2014/2015 at the hight of Kespa/Proleague. Because while I still think that we have the highest skill-ceiling right now, the hight of competitiveness was clearly the Proleague-years for the reasons you mentioned. But GSL was such a different tournament in the start, winning three almost seems too little of an accomplishment. Maru won three GSLs in one year - the only three GSLs in that year. THAT is impressive. Mvp won what, three out of ten? And he won it over players who basically checked out when the competitive-curve climaxed.
I would say a long-living game like SC2 has a life-circle of four stages: 1)The release-years. Everyone is a newcomer basically, some players distinguish themselves, but most of them usually never carry over into the next stage. 2)The height of competitiveness, when player-base and skill-level are both on a very high standard. 3)The fizzling out - the player base diminishes, but as long as the prizemoney is good, the skill level somewhat still increases. The game might not be able to support as many progamers as before, meaning those who are still in it need to be on a very high level to keep doing it. New players usually don't break into the top-ranks anymore, mostly because there is too little hype and opportunity to get into the game. 4)"Ded gaem": The game still runs, might even support some players, but there are no new players coming in and the tournament scene revolves around community tournaments etc. Examples for games in that stage could be WC3 and SC:R outside of Korea.
SC2 is clearly in the third stage. Not what it used to be, but with giant tournaments, a great team league and still pretty good viewing numbers it is still miles away from being in a stage like WC3.
I would never discount any trophies and achievements completly, but I would say you have to reduce the impact of everything achieved in the first and fourth stage by quite a bit. In this case, everything pre-Proleague isn't "nothing", but it is also not nearly on the level of the now twelve years afterwards.
On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote: I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on.
maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek
theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke.
Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem
What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s???
"Much stronger" was a bit optimistic, but in the end, Reynor is a world champion and has more Premier wins, while also being active in a more competitive timeframe.
Wait what?? When Mvp was playing there were hundreds of pro players, young and motivated, practicing all day in teamhouses with coaches and analysts. During Reynor's timeframe there were/are maybe 30 serious progamers practicing from home
And shocker, Poopi overvalues a korean terran while giving the "so imbalaced"-theme another spin. Reynor is literally one of only four players who created that "zerg era". Seeing how in Mvp's year the entire finalist-board of GSL is basically terran blue, you could make the argument that terran was just OP that year, but who would ever claim that, huh?
"Only four zergs won everything"
And yes, Mvp winning during the TvT era is a completely valid reason for him not being high on the GOAT list if you personally take balance into account that heavily. Although it seems a bit much to have him off entirely given how much better he was than every other terran. Reynor on the other hand was like the 4th best zerg in the world during the Z era.
On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote: I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on.
maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek
theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke.
Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem
What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s???
"Much stronger" was a bit optimistic, but in the end, Reynor is a world champion and has more Premier wins, while also being active in a more competitive timeframe.
Wait what?? When Mvp was playing there were hundreds of pro players, young and motivated, practicing all day in teamhouses with coaches and analysts. During Reynor's timeframe there were/are maybe 30 serious progamers practicing from home
And shocker, Poopi overvalues a korean terran while giving the "so imbalaced"-theme another spin. Reynor is literally one of only four players who created that "zerg era". Seeing how in Mvp's year the entire finalist-board of GSL is basically terran blue, you could make the argument that terran was just OP that year, but who would ever claim that, huh?
"Only four zergs won everything"
And yes, Mvp winning during the TvT era is a completely valid reason for him not being high on the GOAT list if you personally take balance into account that heavily. Although it seems a bit much to have him off entirely given how much better he was than every other terran. Reynor on the other hand was like the 4th best zerg in the world during the Z era.
When no-name Zerg after no-name Zerg suddenly pops into the Top 4 call me, otherwise there wasn't a "Zerg era". There was an era with four outstanding zergs, everyone else did actually kinda poorly.
For someone who was "so much better than everybody else" Mvp didn't win that much tbh. He was good, probably the best at his time, but not that outstanding. Reynor toppled better opponents in a year alone, not to mention the extend of his career. And just to clarify: I'm not saying Reynor should be Top 5, even Top 10 (I think I would have put him there, but I can see why not). I'm just saying he definetly is atleast one place higher on the list than Mvp. And how people can even begin to put Mvp in the Top 3/5 is completly beyond me.
On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote: I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on.
maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek
theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke.
Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem
What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s???
"Much stronger" was a bit optimistic, but in the end, Reynor is a world champion and has more Premier wins, while also being active in a more competitive timeframe.
Wait what?? When Mvp was playing there were hundreds of pro players, young and motivated, practicing all day in teamhouses with coaches and analysts. During Reynor's timeframe there were/are maybe 30 serious progamers practicing from home
Mvp mostly accomplished his feats in the pre-Kespa/Proleague era, when the game was fresh and people tried to figure it out. He had one good year and was basically done afterwards. Reynor is now in the top 5 of the world for years, top 10 easily by 5+ years. He won his World Championship in a tournament in which all three of the usual GOAT-Contenders were present, beating one of them (Maru) in the process, while also winning against the biggest Challenger (Dark) and probably the best Protoss (Zest) of all time. That tournament alone is far more impressive than Mvp's GSLs, won against players you probably wouldn't even put into a Top 50...or when exactly do TOP, MarineKing and Squirtle come in your personal list of the best players of all time?
And shocker, Poopi overvalues a korean terran while giving the "so imbalaced"-theme another spin. Reynor is literally one of only four players who created that "zerg era". Seeing how in Mvp's year the entire finalist-board of GSL is basically terran blue, you could make the argument that terran was just OP that year, but who would ever claim that, huh?
I really don't think this is true. Reynor's win is impressive, but the current era of SC2 is laughable in terms of competitiveness. I'd say anything past 2018 is vastly inferior to pre-2018. Post-pandemic? Even worse. Now there are literally only 16 Koreans who can even be considered "professional" SC2 players. I would say that any achievements in the last 3 years should be valued at close to 1/3 as much as before. You can just look at the effort players put in and it's laughable in comparison to how it was in 2011-2016. Players would be practicing all day, have teams and coaches all working their asses off, with a field of players roughly 3x larger. I'd even say that Top 4 of GSL 2012 was more impressive than winning the global finals in 2018-2023.
Sure, Reynor plays better than any player from 2016 did, but the strength and accomplishment of a player is always relative to the state of the competition at the time. In 10 years, there's probably going to be some player who has stuck with SC2 for all 10 years winning everything despite the scene being dead, and you'll be calling them the GOAT for winning the most tournaments out of any player ever.
I don't even feel like Maru or Dark try any more. You can see it in their play. No one is invested in the game the same way people were before. Basically no one has that burning fire in their heart to win it all. Sure, people want to win because money is good to have. But it's not what it was. Players were so invested back in the early days of GSL. Players literally gave up all of their home life, gave up good jobs, lived in grody team houses, just so they could be the best. No one does that now.
2018 already is a pretty heavy anti-Serral take. Proleague shut down mid-to-end 2016, so if anything 2017 at the latest should be the starting point of this "ending era". But I can already see the foam on some peoples mouth if you wanted to explain to them that Marus and Rogues trophies are basically just worth 1/3 of anything before them.
Next: I think it is extremly weird to mush everything pre-2016 into one era, saying winning the very first GSL is as much of an accomplishment then winning one in 2014/2015 at the hight of Kespa/Proleague. Because while I still think that we have the highest skill-ceiling right now, the hight of competitiveness was clearly the Proleague-years for the reasons you mentioned. But GSL was such a different tournament in the start, winning three almost seems too little of an accomplishment. Maru won three GSLs in one year - the only three GSLs in that year. THAT is impressive. Mvp won what, three out of ten? And he won it over players who basically checked out when the competitive-curve climaxed.
I would say a long-living game like SC2 has a life-circle of four stages: [b]1)The release-years. Everyone is a newcomer basically, some players distinguish themselves, but most of them usually never carry over into the next stage. 2)The height of competitiveness, when player-base and skill-level are both on a very high standard. 3)The fizzling out - the player base diminishes, but as long as the prizemoney is good, the skill level somewhat still increases. The game might not be able to support as many progamers as before, meaning those who are still in it need to be on a very high level to keep doing it. New players usually don't break into the top-ranks anymore, mostly because there is too little hype and opportunity to get into the game. 4)"Ded gaem": The game still runs, might even support some players, but there are no new players coming in and the tournament scene revolves around community tournaments etc. Examples for games in that stage could be WC3 and SC:R outside of Korea.
SC2 is clearly in the third stage. Not what it used to be, but with giant tournaments, a great team league and still pretty good viewing numbers it is still miles away from being in a stage like WC3.[\b]
I would never discount any trophies and achievements completly, but I would say you have to reduce the impact of everything achieved in the first and fourth stage by quite a bit. In this case, everything pre-Proleague isn't "nothing", but it is also not nearly on the level of the now twelve years afterwards.
Can’t agree more with this part.
In terms of raw chops, 2023 vintage Serral is smacking fools around even at the Kespa peak years, that’s what you get with years of the collective hive mind further refining the game. But it was more cutthroat, even Serral who I think most concede is at least the most resolutely consistent player we’ve seen (well, consistently good anyway!), there’s just no way even he would be making basically the Ro4+ nearly every tournament when the competition was that much deeper.
Granted I don’t actually think Serral becomes that Serral without the creation of the regional stepping stone that was locked. That structure was really important in giving a pathway to foreigners to actually break through. But hey, that’s another discussion.
One observation that has intrigued me is how few of the Kespa B-teamers, or non-ace tier players ever really stepped up, given how long that system was in place. Most of the players on this list, as well as those you’d stick 11-20, a herO, a Trap etc all were pretty established names, pretty quickly.
But yet even as the scene became less cutthroat, military retirements took their toll etc it was still mostly the same names, even if they were going through the motions we’d see tourney after tourney.
Hell there’s even more stalwarts from the eSF days still around like Maru, Gumiho and Byun than anyone who really wasn’t established as a top player by 2014 or so breaking through.
Always found this a bit curious figured I’d throw it out there as to other’s thoughts. It’s like there was one great generation of championship calibre players, and then nothing after
One would think you’d have at least a couple of raw talents close to a breakthrough prior to the end of Kespa that could stick around and hoover up some prizes and prestige
I recognise the structural problems re Korea, and bemoan them myself but perhaps this era is more competitive than we give it credit for sometimes, given how that ceiling demonstrably hasn’t been broken.
I don't see why opponents who are historically better, but playing comparatively worse than before count more than players who were better at that time. Like, "better players" is all relative. The only way you can compare Reynors accomplishments to anyone else's is through looking at how competitive the field is during the times they played. The fact that more people dropped out or became irrelevant just shows that the field was way bigger and more competitive. There were 64+ Koreans who were competitive back then. Now there's 16. Like, GSL is embarrassing now. $7k USD for 1st, with about the least competitive qualifiers. I don't put Maru's recent GSL wins even in the same tier as MLG or Dreamhacks of 2012-2016, and I'm a Maru fan.
So while Reynor is certainly impressive for the modern era, the competition just isn't the same as before. I think Serral is definitively the best player during LotV. I'd still consider Serrals accomplishments impressive and top 5 GOAT worthy. But I wouldn't consider Reynors.
A comparison we could make is how ASL in Broodwar now is basically worth nothing in terms of Broodwar GOAT legacy. No one is going to say an ASL win today is the same as Flashs or Jaedongs or Bisus in the past. It's still impressive seeing anyone win any competition, and it's cool seeing players technically at the highest performance ceiling ever, but the weight of the achievement just isn't as high. You can be definitively the best player in the world at something, but if there's only 5 people who compete, it doesn't count for that much.
On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote: I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on.
maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek
theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke.
Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem
What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s???
"Much stronger" was a bit optimistic, but in the end, Reynor is a world champion and has more Premier wins, while also being active in a more competitive timeframe.
Wait what?? When Mvp was playing there were hundreds of pro players, young and motivated, practicing all day in teamhouses with coaches and analysts. During Reynor's timeframe there were/are maybe 30 serious progamers practicing from home
And shocker, Poopi overvalues a korean terran while giving the "so imbalaced"-theme another spin. Reynor is literally one of only four players who created that "zerg era". Seeing how in Mvp's year the entire finalist-board of GSL is basically terran blue, you could make the argument that terran was just OP that year, but who would ever claim that, huh?
"Only four zergs won everything"
And yes, Mvp winning during the TvT era is a completely valid reason for him not being high on the GOAT list if you personally take balance into account that heavily. Although it seems a bit much to have him off entirely given how much better he was than every other terran. Reynor on the other hand was like the 4th best zerg in the world during the Z era.
When no-name Zerg after no-name Zerg suddenly pops into the Top 4 call me, otherwise there wasn't a "Zerg era". There was an era with four outstanding zergs, everyone else did actually kinda poorly.
For someone who was "so much better than everybody else" Mvp didn't win that much tbh. He was good, probably the best at his time, but not that outstanding. Reynor toppled better opponents in a year alone, not to mention the extend of his career. And just to clarify: I'm not saying Reynor should be Top 5, even Top 10 (I think I would have put him there, but I can see why not). I'm just saying he definetly is atleast one place higher on the list than Mvp. And how people can even begin to put Mvp in the Top 3/5 is completly beyond me.
He was the clearest outright best player around until Innovation’s peak incarnation. You can probably count on the fingers of one hand players who had a sufficient gapping of the field to be the best for any period of time.
This doesn’t necessarily mean one wins everything mind, Inno’s strongest period IMO he still loses that GSL final to Soulkey, but he was outright melting people most matches in that span.
I stick Mvp up so high because he laid so many foundations in a new strategy game, and I rate being ahead of the curve and actually figuring out and fleshing out the game quite highly.
I mean if one had the budget and some willing subjects you could probably drill a mechanically gifted youngster into a damn competitive player these days, even if they’re very lacking in imagination and intuition. Not to take away from current pros who clearly are still using their brains and aren’t automatons
In addition it’s partly him being that bit ahead of the pack, and him being the complete package of clutch, a great set planner and him being able to still be competitive while completely changing his style thru injury. Of WoL’s big hitters of the other races Nestea clearly had limits despite his cleverness, MC was a bit streaky at times and I don’t think either of them were quite ‘the best’ of that time even though they won titles.
Plus you still have those latter series where he was hanging with the next generation despite being on the physical decline, even if the scene hadn’t quite hit its peak. Ofc vs Life, that immortal series versus Inno, him beating the likes of Rain. That dual career trajectory where he was ahead of the field mechanically at the beginning, and behind at the end but still getting results.
I can totally understand excluding Mvp if one is judging with different personal parameters of greatness but he’d make my personal cut for a top 10
Mvp has also been part of some of the greatest moments ever. He's part of *the* peak SC2 moment with the Squirtle finals. In terms of moments, I dunno if he can be beat. I think NesTea is the only one remotely comparable, and that is almost entirely fueled by Artosis' love for him which led to amazing moments (The GSL May Ro4 vs sC final moments, "I'M NESTEAAAAAAAA" and any time he enters the GSTL booth).
reynor over mvp? yeah, look his great run in the gsl!
MVP is by far above reynor.
its not just about winning championships, its also about how dominant he was, how he changed the game, his builds, etc. MVP won everything, even being injured.
You guys goin on about MVP, what the heck, obviously hes great, but Miz list is using clear catergories and I dont think MVP will be part of this and I would be totally ok with it, even thou I love him. But Miz loves soO and still didnt put him in #1, only in his heart maybe ;-P
On January 29 2024 17:27 Lambertus wrote: You guys goin on about MVP, what the heck, obviously hes great, but Miz list is using clear catergories and I dont think MVP will be part of this and I would be totally ok with it, even thou I love him. But Miz loves soO and still didnt put him in #1, only in his heart maybe ;-P
While I appreciate Miz’s criteria, articulation of it and the groundwork and research that went into it and some damn fine writeups, it would be a pretty boring thread if it was entirely confined to that territory without others with different gauges bringing that to bear!
Even within said framework Rain kinda sticks out a lot, although actually for my money he’s the outright best, or at least most talented Toss to touch SC2. Swap Rain for Dark, Stats, one of whom I doubt will be here, possibly both and I think it’s fine within Miz’s framework. But it feels there’s as much a case for the King of Wings as for Rain given a similar span at the top. If Rain was omitted and Mvp is competing with a field who were exclusively in or around the top of the game for 5+ years, well hey you’ll not get any arguments from me.
Yeah it's perfectly possible to put up a list without mvp there, if being dominant for a relatively short period of time and ending one's career before slowly accumulating trophies over time (à la Dark, or Stats) is not taken much into account. But given the fact that Rain is there, mvp is also probably there too.
On January 29 2024 14:22 RPR_Tempest wrote: Mvp has also been part of some of the greatest moments ever. He's part of *the* peak SC2 moment with the Squirtle finals. In terms of moments, I dunno if he can be beat. I think NesTea is the only one remotely comparable, and that is almost entirely fueled by Artosis' love for him which led to amazing moments (The GSL May Ro4 vs sC final moments, "I'M NESTEAAAAAAAA" and any time he enters the GSTL booth).
I mean that series is Mvp’s greatness in a nutshell. Damn solid in ye olde regular games, but threw in a clearly prepped strategy for a particular map, I mean we never saw split map BC TvP then, even now it’s blooming rare over SC2’s entire lifespan at that kinda level. Squirtle pulls basically the only possible win condition open to him, but the gameplan worked beautifully.
Then Mvp pulls the daring cheese with everything on the line and Squirtle deflects it, only for Mvp to pull a tactical bit of manouvering that was really his only win condition.
As a fan of the game in general more than players and races I am thankful that we got those games, and that Mvp and Squirtle gave just enough wriggle room for them to best their opponent in such memorable fashion in those sets.
On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote: I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on.
maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek
theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke.
Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem
What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s???
"Much stronger" was a bit optimistic, but in the end, Reynor is a world champion and has more Premier wins, while also being active in a more competitive timeframe.
Wait what?? When Mvp was playing there were hundreds of pro players, young and motivated, practicing all day in teamhouses with coaches and analysts. During Reynor's timeframe there were/are maybe 30 serious progamers practicing from home
And shocker, Poopi overvalues a korean terran while giving the "so imbalaced"-theme another spin. Reynor is literally one of only four players who created that "zerg era". Seeing how in Mvp's year the entire finalist-board of GSL is basically terran blue, you could make the argument that terran was just OP that year, but who would ever claim that, huh?
"Only four zergs won everything"
And yes, Mvp winning during the TvT era is a completely valid reason for him not being high on the GOAT list if you personally take balance into account that heavily. Although it seems a bit much to have him off entirely given how much better he was than every other terran. Reynor on the other hand was like the 4th best zerg in the world during the Z era.
When no-name Zerg after no-name Zerg suddenly pops into the Top 4 call me, otherwise there wasn't a "Zerg era". There was an era with four outstanding zergs, everyone else did actually kinda poorly.
And Reynor was still only the 4th best during that era. While Mvp was absolutely the best terran in 2011 and WoL overall. It's denying history well-recorded to say otherwise.
You know some people once said "It's not zerg it's just Serral" and they were completely wrong, but the idea there can be justified. That idea falls apart completely if you extend it to 4 or 5 players. Do you really believe Serral, soO, Reynor, Dark, and Rogue were better than any player of any other race suddenly from 2017 onwards? Even Rogue would disagree with you
For the record, terran was imba for a while during WoL, but you can't agree with that while claiming zerg wasn't also imba in LotV.
On January 28 2024 20:07 yubo56 wrote: [quote] maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek
theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke.
Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem
What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s???
"Much stronger" was a bit optimistic, but in the end, Reynor is a world champion and has more Premier wins, while also being active in a more competitive timeframe.
Wait what?? When Mvp was playing there were hundreds of pro players, young and motivated, practicing all day in teamhouses with coaches and analysts. During Reynor's timeframe there were/are maybe 30 serious progamers practicing from home
And shocker, Poopi overvalues a korean terran while giving the "so imbalaced"-theme another spin. Reynor is literally one of only four players who created that "zerg era". Seeing how in Mvp's year the entire finalist-board of GSL is basically terran blue, you could make the argument that terran was just OP that year, but who would ever claim that, huh?
"Only four zergs won everything"
And yes, Mvp winning during the TvT era is a completely valid reason for him not being high on the GOAT list if you personally take balance into account that heavily. Although it seems a bit much to have him off entirely given how much better he was than every other terran. Reynor on the other hand was like the 4th best zerg in the world during the Z era.
When no-name Zerg after no-name Zerg suddenly pops into the Top 4 call me, otherwise there wasn't a "Zerg era". There was an era with four outstanding zergs, everyone else did actually kinda poorly.
And Reynor was still only the 4th best during that era. While Mvp was absolutely the best terran in 2011 and WoL overall. It's denying history well-recorded to say otherwise.
You know some people once said "It's not zerg it's just Serral" and they were completely wrong, but the idea there can be justified. That idea falls apart completely if you extend it to 4 or 5 players. Do you really believe Serral, soO, Reynor, Dark, and Rogue were better than any player of any other race suddenly from 2017 onwards? Even Rogue would disagree with you
For the record, terran was imba for a while during WoL, but you can't agree with that while claiming zerg wasn't also imba in LotV.
Don't insult my man Climax.That's the narrative. This is reality...
On January 28 2024 20:07 yubo56 wrote: [quote] maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek
theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke.
Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem
What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s???
"Much stronger" was a bit optimistic, but in the end, Reynor is a world champion and has more Premier wins, while also being active in a more competitive timeframe.
Wait what?? When Mvp was playing there were hundreds of pro players, young and motivated, practicing all day in teamhouses with coaches and analysts. During Reynor's timeframe there were/are maybe 30 serious progamers practicing from home
And shocker, Poopi overvalues a korean terran while giving the "so imbalaced"-theme another spin. Reynor is literally one of only four players who created that "zerg era". Seeing how in Mvp's year the entire finalist-board of GSL is basically terran blue, you could make the argument that terran was just OP that year, but who would ever claim that, huh?
"Only four zergs won everything"
And yes, Mvp winning during the TvT era is a completely valid reason for him not being high on the GOAT list if you personally take balance into account that heavily. Although it seems a bit much to have him off entirely given how much better he was than every other terran. Reynor on the other hand was like the 4th best zerg in the world during the Z era.
When no-name Zerg after no-name Zerg suddenly pops into the Top 4 call me, otherwise there wasn't a "Zerg era". There was an era with four outstanding zergs, everyone else did actually kinda poorly.
And Reynor was still only the 4th best during that era.
Do you think that's true? I haven't directly compared their achievements but from my gut take it could be argued Reynor outshined Dark, particularly 2019 onwards.
theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke.
Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem
What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s???
"Much stronger" was a bit optimistic, but in the end, Reynor is a world champion and has more Premier wins, while also being active in a more competitive timeframe.
Wait what?? When Mvp was playing there were hundreds of pro players, young and motivated, practicing all day in teamhouses with coaches and analysts. During Reynor's timeframe there were/are maybe 30 serious progamers practicing from home
And shocker, Poopi overvalues a korean terran while giving the "so imbalaced"-theme another spin. Reynor is literally one of only four players who created that "zerg era". Seeing how in Mvp's year the entire finalist-board of GSL is basically terran blue, you could make the argument that terran was just OP that year, but who would ever claim that, huh?
"Only four zergs won everything"
And yes, Mvp winning during the TvT era is a completely valid reason for him not being high on the GOAT list if you personally take balance into account that heavily. Although it seems a bit much to have him off entirely given how much better he was than every other terran. Reynor on the other hand was like the 4th best zerg in the world during the Z era.
When no-name Zerg after no-name Zerg suddenly pops into the Top 4 call me, otherwise there wasn't a "Zerg era". There was an era with four outstanding zergs, everyone else did actually kinda poorly.
And Reynor was still only the 4th best during that era.
Do you think that's true? I haven't directly compared their achievements but from my gut take it could be argued Reynor outshined Dark, particularly 2019 onwards.
Maybe, but I'd definitely include 2019 when talking about the zerg championship era. It would start mid 2017 onward
On January 28 2024 20:07 yubo56 wrote: [quote] maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek
theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke.
Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem
What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s???
"Much stronger" was a bit optimistic, but in the end, Reynor is a world champion and has more Premier wins, while also being active in a more competitive timeframe.
Wait what?? When Mvp was playing there were hundreds of pro players, young and motivated, practicing all day in teamhouses with coaches and analysts. During Reynor's timeframe there were/are maybe 30 serious progamers practicing from home
And shocker, Poopi overvalues a korean terran while giving the "so imbalaced"-theme another spin. Reynor is literally one of only four players who created that "zerg era". Seeing how in Mvp's year the entire finalist-board of GSL is basically terran blue, you could make the argument that terran was just OP that year, but who would ever claim that, huh?
"Only four zergs won everything"
And yes, Mvp winning during the TvT era is a completely valid reason for him not being high on the GOAT list if you personally take balance into account that heavily. Although it seems a bit much to have him off entirely given how much better he was than every other terran. Reynor on the other hand was like the 4th best zerg in the world during the Z era.
When no-name Zerg after no-name Zerg suddenly pops into the Top 4 call me, otherwise there wasn't a "Zerg era". There was an era with four outstanding zergs, everyone else did actually kinda poorly.
And Reynor was still only the 4th best during that era. While Mvp was absolutely the best terran in 2011 and WoL overall. It's denying history well-recorded to say otherwise.
You know some people once said "It's not zerg it's just Serral" and they were completely wrong, but the idea there can be justified. That idea falls apart completely if you extend it to 4 or 5 players. Do you really believe Serral, soO, Reynor, Dark, and Rogue were better than any player of any other race suddenly from 2017 onwards? Even Rogue would disagree with you
For the record, terran was imba for a while during WoL, but you can't agree with that while claiming zerg wasn't also imba in LotV.
I believe that Serral and peak-Reynor (we all know his motivational swings) are better than most players, yes. Purely skillwise Maru would also fit in that category, maybe even Dark. Rogue to a lesser extend, but he was incredibly cutthrought which ofc is a strength in its own right. The game probably is and was never 100% balanced, I assume that is impossible. But I don't believe the game was so imbalanced that it could clear a huge skill-difference between players. Otherwise so many more Zergs would have broken into the top-ranks - like in WoL when terran was too much. Though even there I'm not fully sure if it was just balanced or the fact that the game was new and not figured out at all.
Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem
What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s???
"Much stronger" was a bit optimistic, but in the end, Reynor is a world champion and has more Premier wins, while also being active in a more competitive timeframe.
Wait what?? When Mvp was playing there were hundreds of pro players, young and motivated, practicing all day in teamhouses with coaches and analysts. During Reynor's timeframe there were/are maybe 30 serious progamers practicing from home
And shocker, Poopi overvalues a korean terran while giving the "so imbalaced"-theme another spin. Reynor is literally one of only four players who created that "zerg era". Seeing how in Mvp's year the entire finalist-board of GSL is basically terran blue, you could make the argument that terran was just OP that year, but who would ever claim that, huh?
"Only four zergs won everything"
And yes, Mvp winning during the TvT era is a completely valid reason for him not being high on the GOAT list if you personally take balance into account that heavily. Although it seems a bit much to have him off entirely given how much better he was than every other terran. Reynor on the other hand was like the 4th best zerg in the world during the Z era.
When no-name Zerg after no-name Zerg suddenly pops into the Top 4 call me, otherwise there wasn't a "Zerg era". There was an era with four outstanding zergs, everyone else did actually kinda poorly.
And Reynor was still only the 4th best during that era.
Do you think that's true? I haven't directly compared their achievements but from my gut take it could be argued Reynor outshined Dark, particularly 2019 onwards.
Maybe, but I'd definitely include 2019 when talking about the zerg championship era. It would start mid 2017 onward
So a year in which no Zerg even reached the finals of GSL is part of the "Zerg Championship era"? That's some era...
As for Mvp's accomplishments I refer to my earlier post
Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem
What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s???
"Much stronger" was a bit optimistic, but in the end, Reynor is a world champion and has more Premier wins, while also being active in a more competitive timeframe.
Wait what?? When Mvp was playing there were hundreds of pro players, young and motivated, practicing all day in teamhouses with coaches and analysts. During Reynor's timeframe there were/are maybe 30 serious progamers practicing from home
And shocker, Poopi overvalues a korean terran while giving the "so imbalaced"-theme another spin. Reynor is literally one of only four players who created that "zerg era". Seeing how in Mvp's year the entire finalist-board of GSL is basically terran blue, you could make the argument that terran was just OP that year, but who would ever claim that, huh?
"Only four zergs won everything"
And yes, Mvp winning during the TvT era is a completely valid reason for him not being high on the GOAT list if you personally take balance into account that heavily. Although it seems a bit much to have him off entirely given how much better he was than every other terran. Reynor on the other hand was like the 4th best zerg in the world during the Z era.
When no-name Zerg after no-name Zerg suddenly pops into the Top 4 call me, otherwise there wasn't a "Zerg era". There was an era with four outstanding zergs, everyone else did actually kinda poorly.
And Reynor was still only the 4th best during that era.
Do you think that's true? I haven't directly compared their achievements but from my gut take it could be argued Reynor outshined Dark, particularly 2019 onwards.
Maybe, but I'd definitely include 2019 when talking about the zerg championship era. It would start mid 2017 onward
But that's my point - I don't think anyone would really say the Z era was 2017 or 2018. Sure Rogue was good at the end of 2017 but I don't think really balance concerns arose until 2019 and the nydus era. I mean Maru was obviously wrecking face in 2018.
On January 29 2024 03:56 Lil_nooblet wrote: [quote]
What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s???
"Much stronger" was a bit optimistic, but in the end, Reynor is a world champion and has more Premier wins, while also being active in a more competitive timeframe.
Wait what?? When Mvp was playing there were hundreds of pro players, young and motivated, practicing all day in teamhouses with coaches and analysts. During Reynor's timeframe there were/are maybe 30 serious progamers practicing from home
And shocker, Poopi overvalues a korean terran while giving the "so imbalaced"-theme another spin. Reynor is literally one of only four players who created that "zerg era". Seeing how in Mvp's year the entire finalist-board of GSL is basically terran blue, you could make the argument that terran was just OP that year, but who would ever claim that, huh?
"Only four zergs won everything"
And yes, Mvp winning during the TvT era is a completely valid reason for him not being high on the GOAT list if you personally take balance into account that heavily. Although it seems a bit much to have him off entirely given how much better he was than every other terran. Reynor on the other hand was like the 4th best zerg in the world during the Z era.
When no-name Zerg after no-name Zerg suddenly pops into the Top 4 call me, otherwise there wasn't a "Zerg era". There was an era with four outstanding zergs, everyone else did actually kinda poorly.
And Reynor was still only the 4th best during that era.
Do you think that's true? I haven't directly compared their achievements but from my gut take it could be argued Reynor outshined Dark, particularly 2019 onwards.
Maybe, but I'd definitely include 2019 when talking about the zerg championship era. It would start mid 2017 onward
But that's my point - I don't think anyone would really say the Z era was 2017 or 2018. Sure Rogue was good at the end of 2017 but I don't think really balance concerns arose until 2019 and the nydus era. I mean Maru was obviously wrecking face in 2018.
Well 2018 was not really the zerg era but towards the end it showed that zerg was def the best race when it got to the lategame and also a race with enough ways in the midgame to get there, so while serral was obv insane in the 2nd half of 2018 there was for sure an advantage for him that the best way to play zerg aligned perfectly with his strengths.
On January 29 2024 17:27 Lambertus wrote: You guys goin on about MVP, what the heck, obviously hes great, but Miz list is using clear catergories and I dont think MVP will be part of this and I would be totally ok with it, even thou I love him. But Miz loves soO and still didnt put him in #1, only in his heart maybe ;-P
While I appreciate Miz’s criteria, articulation of it and the groundwork and research that went into it and some damn fine writeups, it would be a pretty boring thread if it was entirely confined to that territory without others with different gauges bringing that to bear!
Even within said framework Rain kinda sticks out a lot, although actually for my money he’s the outright best, or at least most talented Toss to touch SC2. Swap Rain for Dark, Stats, one of whom I doubt will be here, possibly both and I think it’s fine within Miz’s framework. But it feels there’s as much a case for the King of Wings as for Rain given a similar span at the top. If Rain was omitted and Mvp is competing with a field who were exclusively in or around the top of the game for 5+ years, well hey you’ll not get any arguments from me.
I may go riot in the streets but I won’t argue :p
Yes, in that spirit I was trying to join in here! :-D Maybe should use more emojis XD And man, he was a great player, that MVP. Close to my heart for example as well: squirtle. Also he will definitly not show up on this list, Im sure of it :-D
On January 29 2024 17:27 Lambertus wrote: You guys goin on about MVP, what the heck, obviously hes great, but Miz list is using clear catergories and I dont think MVP will be part of this and I would be totally ok with it, even thou I love him. But Miz loves soO and still didnt put him in #1, only in his heart maybe ;-P
While I appreciate Miz’s criteria, articulation of it and the groundwork and research that went into it and some damn fine writeups, it would be a pretty boring thread if it was entirely confined to that territory without others with different gauges bringing that to bear!
Even within said framework Rain kinda sticks out a lot, although actually for my money he’s the outright best, or at least most talented Toss to touch SC2. Swap Rain for Dark, Stats, one of whom I doubt will be here, possibly both and I think it’s fine within Miz’s framework. But it feels there’s as much a case for the King of Wings as for Rain given a similar span at the top. If Rain was omitted and Mvp is competing with a field who were exclusively in or around the top of the game for 5+ years, well hey you’ll not get any arguments from me.
I may go riot in the streets but I won’t argue :p
This isn't directed at you, or anyone in particular, but I really hope(some) people try to remember that this list was incredibly difficult to make and there were more than 10 candidates in the beginning. I'll cover 11-15 and on in blogs, but there is no shame in being the 11th best all time..
On January 27 2024 05:41 jy_9876543210 wrote: top 5 innovation dark maru serral rogue incoming?
MVP instead of Innovation or Dark, I think.
Edit: Shouldd've read the rest of this thread. Not including him makes sense based on the criteria we're using. Though I disagree with the notion that it's good criteria for a GOAT list. Nevertheless, impressive work done on this, and the writing is great!
I wish this forum had auto-ban feature for saying "GOAT". The most useless and tiresome topic ever.
It's a game where being a great player of a dominant race in lower competition environment nets you many more tournament wins then being a great player of a non-dominant race in a very high competition era. So how do you even compare.
On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote: I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on.
maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek
theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke.
Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem
What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s???
"Much stronger" was a bit optimistic, but in the end, Reynor is a world champion and has more Premier wins, while also being active in a more competitive timeframe.
Wait what?? When Mvp was playing there were hundreds of pro players, young and motivated, practicing all day in teamhouses with coaches and analysts. During Reynor's timeframe there were/are maybe 30 serious progamers practicing from home
Mvp mostly accomplished his feats in the pre-Kespa/Proleague era, when the game was fresh and people tried to figure it out. He had one good year and was basically done afterwards. Reynor is now in the top 5 of the world for years, top 10 easily by 5+ years. He won his World Championship in a tournament in which all three of the usual GOAT-Contenders were present, beating one of them (Maru) in the process, while also winning against the biggest Challenger (Dark) and probably the best Protoss (Zest) of all time. That tournament alone is far more impressive than Mvp's GSLs, won against players you probably wouldn't even put into a Top 50...or when exactly do TOP, MarineKing and Squirtle come in your personal list of the best players of all time?
And shocker, Poopi overvalues a korean terran while giving the "so imbalaced"-theme another spin. Reynor is literally one of only four players who created that "zerg era". Seeing how in Mvp's year the entire finalist-board of GSL is basically terran blue, you could make the argument that terran was just OP that year, but who would ever claim that, huh?
I really don't think this is true. Reynor's win is impressive, but the current era of SC2 is laughable in terms of competitiveness. I'd say anything past 2018 is vastly inferior to pre-2018. Post-pandemic? Even worse. Now there are literally only 16 Koreans who can even be considered "professional" SC2 players. I would say that any achievements in the last 3 years should be valued at close to 1/3 as much as before. You can just look at the effort players put in and it's laughable in comparison to how it was in 2011-2016. Players would be practicing all day, have teams and coaches all working their asses off, with a field of players roughly 3x larger. I'd even say that Top 4 of GSL 2012 was more impressive than winning the global finals in 2018-2023.
Sure, Reynor plays better than any player from 2016 did, but the strength and accomplishment of a player is always relative to the state of the competition at the time. In 10 years, there's probably going to be some player who has stuck with SC2 for all 10 years winning everything despite the scene being dead, and you'll be calling them the GOAT for winning the most tournaments out of any player ever.
I don't even feel like Maru or Dark try any more. You can see it in their play. No one is invested in the game the same way people were before. Basically no one has that burning fire in their heart to win it all. Sure, people want to win because money is good to have. But it's not what it was. Players were so invested back in the early days of GSL. Players literally gave up all of their home life, gave up good jobs, lived in grody team houses, just so they could be the best. No one does that now.
great points, i share these opinions. People writing off MVP's accomplishments either forgot or were not around how incredibly competitive GSL and SC2 in general used to be. Hundreds of players dedicating their lives to the game tried day and night to figure out the next best strategy and hone their skills. Sure the game wasn't figured out, so what?? Is Pelé not one of the football GOATs because he maybe wouldn't fit into Pep Guardiola's modern setup?? IMO MVP>>>>>>Dark But still, Dark > Rain, TY, soO, so... i don't know where that leaves us
I believe that Serral and peak-Reynor (we all know his motivational swings) are better than most players, yes. Purely skillwise Maru would also fit in that category, maybe even Dark. Rogue to a lesser extend, but he was incredibly cutthrought which ofc is a strength in its own right. The game probably is and was never 100% balanced, I assume that is impossible. But I don't believe the game was so imbalanced that it could clear a huge skill-difference between players. Otherwise so many more Zergs would have broken into the top-ranks - like in WoL when terran was too much. Though even there I'm not fully sure if it was just balanced or the fact that the game was new and not figured out at all.
Rogue to a lesser extent than Dark is a bit off IMO. Given his playstyles people always seem to underestimate just how strong he was on form. His multitasking and fundamentals in aggressive macro-games were absurdly good (when he was showing up). He also brought this form when it counted more often than Dark.
I think Inno and Life have also had this `just better' aura that the players you've mentioned have.
Inno. Dark. Serral. Rogue. Maru.. MVP left........................... Where is MMA at!?
If MMA isn't on this list I will RIOT
TRIPLE CROWN WINNER with PREMIERE titles in NA Europe and Korea 2x GSL champion Most clutch team league player EVER, GSTL champion x2 Blizzcon runner up Pioneer of Terran multi drop play One of the VERY FEW to be able to beat IMMvp consistently Plus the time span he was dominant, from his first GSL + MLG to the last HSC he won
On January 30 2024 04:35 ZeroByte13 wrote: I wish this forum had auto-ban feature for saying "GOAT". The most useless and tiresome topic ever.
It's a game where being a great player of a dominant race in lower competition environment nets you many more tournament wins then being a great player of a non-dominant race in a very high competition era. So how do you even compare.
While I get that, this article-series is basically a list that ramps up to find the GOAT (or can someone be the Number 1 on a list called "Greatest Players of All Time" but not be called the GOAT?) So you literally clicked on an article about the GOAT-topic and became annoyed that people argued about the GOAT-topic...
On January 30 2024 04:35 ZeroByte13 wrote: I wish this forum had auto-ban feature for saying "GOAT". The most useless and tiresome topic ever.
It's a game where being a great player of a dominant race in lower competition environment nets you many more tournament wins then being a great player of a non-dominant race in a very high competition era. So how do you even compare.
While I get that, this article-series is basically a list that ramps up to find the GOAT (or can someone be the Number 1 on a list called "Greatest Players of All Time" but not be called the GOAT?) So you literally clicked on an article about the GOAT-topic and became annoyed that people argued about the GOAT-topic...
Yeah I get being annoyed at people talking about GOAT in basically every LR thread until Katowice, but if there is a good place to discuss it, it’s these threads. Even if the player isn’t number one yet, seeing who gets which spot can hint at the players that will inevitably not get on this list (or who gets #1)
The very high number of answers in each and every thread shows that the passion is still there :D
On January 30 2024 05:23 ShowTheLights wrote: Inno. Dark. Serral. Rogue. Maru.. MVP left........................... Where is MMA at!?
If MMA isn't on this list I will RIOT
TRIPLE CROWN WINNER with PREMIERE titles in NA Europe and Korea 2x GSL champion Most clutch team league player EVER, GSTL champion x2 Blizzcon runner up Pioneer of Terran multi drop play One of the VERY FEW to be able to beat IMMvp consistently Plus the time span he was dominant, from his first GSL + MLG to the last HSC he won
he wasnt even ahead of some players left off this list on the last list i dont see how he would make it here.
On January 29 2024 17:27 Lambertus wrote: You guys goin on about MVP, what the heck, obviously hes great, but Miz list is using clear catergories and I dont think MVP will be part of this and I would be totally ok with it, even thou I love him. But Miz loves soO and still didnt put him in #1, only in his heart maybe ;-P
While I appreciate Miz’s criteria, articulation of it and the groundwork and research that went into it and some damn fine writeups, it would be a pretty boring thread if it was entirely confined to that territory without others with different gauges bringing that to bear!
Even within said framework Rain kinda sticks out a lot, although actually for my money he’s the outright best, or at least most talented Toss to touch SC2. Swap Rain for Dark, Stats, one of whom I doubt will be here, possibly both and I think it’s fine within Miz’s framework. But it feels there’s as much a case for the King of Wings as for Rain given a similar span at the top. If Rain was omitted and Mvp is competing with a field who were exclusively in or around the top of the game for 5+ years, well hey you’ll not get any arguments from me.
I may go riot in the streets but I won’t argue :p
This isn't directed at you, or anyone in particular, but I really hope(some) people try to remember that this list was incredibly difficult to make and there were more than 10 candidates in the beginning. I'll cover 11-15 and on in blogs, but there is no shame in being the 11th best all time..
On January 29 2024 03:56 Lil_nooblet wrote: [quote]
What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s???
"Much stronger" was a bit optimistic, but in the end, Reynor is a world champion and has more Premier wins, while also being active in a more competitive timeframe.
Wait what?? When Mvp was playing there were hundreds of pro players, young and motivated, practicing all day in teamhouses with coaches and analysts. During Reynor's timeframe there were/are maybe 30 serious progamers practicing from home
And shocker, Poopi overvalues a korean terran while giving the "so imbalaced"-theme another spin. Reynor is literally one of only four players who created that "zerg era". Seeing how in Mvp's year the entire finalist-board of GSL is basically terran blue, you could make the argument that terran was just OP that year, but who would ever claim that, huh?
"Only four zergs won everything"
And yes, Mvp winning during the TvT era is a completely valid reason for him not being high on the GOAT list if you personally take balance into account that heavily. Although it seems a bit much to have him off entirely given how much better he was than every other terran. Reynor on the other hand was like the 4th best zerg in the world during the Z era.
When no-name Zerg after no-name Zerg suddenly pops into the Top 4 call me, otherwise there wasn't a "Zerg era". There was an era with four outstanding zergs, everyone else did actually kinda poorly.
And Reynor was still only the 4th best during that era.
Do you think that's true? I haven't directly compared their achievements but from my gut take it could be argued Reynor outshined Dark, particularly 2019 onwards.
Maybe, but I'd definitely include 2019 when talking about the zerg championship era. It would start mid 2017 onward
But that's my point - I don't think anyone would really say the Z era was 2017 or 2018. Sure Rogue was good at the end of 2017 but I don't think really balance concerns arose until 2019 and the nydus era. I mean Maru was obviously wrecking face in 2018.
Balance concerns at least should have arise earlier. Maybe people were too exited for Serral and Reynor to talk about it.Zerg lategame was too strong by mid 2017, even Blizzcon final was a ZvZ that year, and there were articles accusing Rogue of being a patch zerg for winning.
Did people forget how busted ZvP was in early 2018? Ling drop openers and nydus worms were unbeatable. And terran was almost a dead race except for Maru and his ravens, he was winning events as the sole terran in the ro8.
Even moving past that, 2019 was 100% the Zerg era, and Dark was the best player that year. It's fair to say Reynor was the 4th best during the Zerg era, which is what the conversation was about.
On January 30 2024 07:03 Balnazza wrote: While I get that, this article-series is basically a list that ramps up to find the GOAT (or can someone be the Number 1 on a list called "Greatest Players of All Time" but not be called the GOAT?) So you literally clicked on an article about the GOAT-topic and became annoyed that people argued about the GOAT-topic...
Correct me if I'm wrong but this article is about Zest, isn't it? And what do we get in almost every article of this series so far? Endless arguments about Serral being GOAT, Serral not being GOAT, etc. How many time Zest was mentioned in the last 3 pages? This is what I'm talking about.
On January 30 2024 07:03 Balnazza wrote: While I get that, this article-series is basically a list that ramps up to find the GOAT (or can someone be the Number 1 on a list called "Greatest Players of All Time" but not be called the GOAT?) So you literally clicked on an article about the GOAT-topic and became annoyed that people argued about the GOAT-topic...
Correct me if I'm wrong but this article is about Zest, isn't it? And what do we get in almost every article of this series so far? Endless arguments about Serral being GOAT, Serral not being GOAT, etc. How many time Zest was mentioned in the last 3 pages? This is what I'm talking about.
It is basically an ongoing discussion that just through the entries. In this case for the last three pages it wasn't really about Serral and more about Mvp tbh. And that is on topic, since it is a discussion which five players might come next in the list. Again, this is literally THE place to talk about the GOAT-topic.
On January 29 2024 17:27 Lambertus wrote: You guys goin on about MVP, what the heck, obviously hes great, but Miz list is using clear catergories and I dont think MVP will be part of this and I would be totally ok with it, even thou I love him. But Miz loves soO and still didnt put him in #1, only in his heart maybe ;-P
While I appreciate Miz’s criteria, articulation of it and the groundwork and research that went into it and some damn fine writeups, it would be a pretty boring thread if it was entirely confined to that territory without others with different gauges bringing that to bear!
Even within said framework Rain kinda sticks out a lot, although actually for my money he’s the outright best, or at least most talented Toss to touch SC2. Swap Rain for Dark, Stats, one of whom I doubt will be here, possibly both and I think it’s fine within Miz’s framework. But it feels there’s as much a case for the King of Wings as for Rain given a similar span at the top. If Rain was omitted and Mvp is competing with a field who were exclusively in or around the top of the game for 5+ years, well hey you’ll not get any arguments from me.
I may go riot in the streets but I won’t argue :p
This isn't directed at you, or anyone in particular, but I really hope(some) people try to remember that this list was incredibly difficult to make and there were more than 10 candidates in the beginning. I'll cover 11-15 and on in blogs, but there is no shame in being the 11th best all time..
It's too late Miz. You've doomed yourself. You got to top 5 with Innovation, Maru, Dark, Rogue, Serral, and Mvp still left. There's no recovering from this.
Zest is best! (...protoss of all time but still not top 5 player of all time) Maybe you should have increased the placements of those players who played with the most handicapped race jk i wonder how you'll manage spots 1-5 the comments are going to be brutal haha
On January 30 2024 07:03 Balnazza wrote: While I get that, this article-series is basically a list that ramps up to find the GOAT (or can someone be the Number 1 on a list called "Greatest Players of All Time" but not be called the GOAT?) So you literally clicked on an article about the GOAT-topic and became annoyed that people argued about the GOAT-topic...
Correct me if I'm wrong but this article is about Zest, isn't it? And what do we get in almost every article of this series so far? Endless arguments about Serral being GOAT, Serral not being GOAT, etc. How many time Zest was mentioned in the last 3 pages? This is what I'm talking about.
Well, there's little to debate with Zest, he's near unanimously the greatest protoss of all time (there was even a poll the other day). He'd be a consistent 5, 6, or 7 on any list following any criteria.
With Mvp, Dark, Serral, Maru, Rogue, there's a lot of GOAT and not-even-top-10 arguments to throw around, people will be talking about it forever.
On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote: I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on.
maybe the entire reason Mizen is rewriting the list is to voice his objections about mvp being over-respected nowadays kek
theres no way MVP is not even top 10. if you dont like it at number 1 its ok, but if its not even top 10 its a joke.
Reynor will most likely also be not on this list and his case feels much stronger than Mvp's, so no, about all the potential problems such a list can have (and the warzone we will get when the Top 3 are in), Mvp missing isn't really a problem
What? How in the world is Reynors case to be on the list stronger than MVP’s???
"Much stronger" was a bit optimistic, but in the end, Reynor is a world champion and has more Premier wins, while also being active in a more competitive timeframe.
Wait what?? When Mvp was playing there were hundreds of pro players, young and motivated, practicing all day in teamhouses with coaches and analysts. During Reynor's timeframe there were/are maybe 30 serious progamers practicing from home
Mvp mostly accomplished his feats in the pre-Kespa/Proleague era, when the game was fresh and people tried to figure it out. He had one good year and was basically done afterwards. Reynor is now in the top 5 of the world for years, top 10 easily by 5+ years. He won his World Championship in a tournament in which all three of the usual GOAT-Contenders were present, beating one of them (Maru) in the process, while also winning against the biggest Challenger (Dark) and probably the best Protoss (Zest) of all time. That tournament alone is far more impressive than Mvp's GSLs, won against players you probably wouldn't even put into a Top 50...or when exactly do TOP, MarineKing and Squirtle come in your personal list of the best players of all time?
And shocker, Poopi overvalues a korean terran while giving the "so imbalaced"-theme another spin. Reynor is literally one of only four players who created that "zerg era". Seeing how in Mvp's year the entire finalist-board of GSL is basically terran blue, you could make the argument that terran was just OP that year, but who would ever claim that, huh?
I really don't think this is true. Reynor's win is impressive, but the current era of SC2 is laughable in terms of competitiveness. I'd say anything past 2018 is vastly inferior to pre-2018. Post-pandemic? Even worse. Now there are literally only 16 Koreans who can even be considered "professional" SC2 players. I would say that any achievements in the last 3 years should be valued at close to 1/3 as much as before. You can just look at the effort players put in and it's laughable in comparison to how it was in 2011-2016. Players would be practicing all day, have teams and coaches all working their asses off, with a field of players roughly 3x larger. I'd even say that Top 4 of GSL 2012 was more impressive than winning the global finals in 2018-2023.
Sure, Reynor plays better than any player from 2016 did, but the strength and accomplishment of a player is always relative to the state of the competition at the time. In 10 years, there's probably going to be some player who has stuck with SC2 for all 10 years winning everything despite the scene being dead, and you'll be calling them the GOAT for winning the most tournaments out of any player ever.
I don't even feel like Maru or Dark try any more. You can see it in their play. No one is invested in the game the same way people were before. Basically no one has that burning fire in their heart to win it all. Sure, people want to win because money is good to have. But it's not what it was. Players were so invested back in the early days of GSL. Players literally gave up all of their home life, gave up good jobs, lived in grody team houses, just so they could be the best. No one does that now.
great points, i share these opinions. People writing off MVP's accomplishments either forgot or were not around how incredibly competitive GSL and SC2 in general used to be. Hundreds of players dedicating their lives to the game tried day and night to figure out the next best strategy and hone their skills. Sure the game wasn't figured out, so what?? Is Pelé not one of the football GOATs because he maybe wouldn't fit into Pep Guardiola's modern setup?? IMO MVP>>>>>>Dark But still, Dark > Rain, TY, soO, so... i don't know where that leaves us
Watch Pelé Eterno, and come to the conclusion that Pelé would be on Guardiola's team.
On January 31 2024 06:52 Locutos wrote: I honestly think that the Top 10 list for GOAT is boring.
The Top 11- Top 20 would be much more fun to make.
Trying to compare the likes of Stephano, Parting, MC, Taeja, Reynor, Clem, Solar, Nestea etc
Here is an extremely fun question: Who is the greater foreigner - Clem or Oliveira?
Clam, and it’s not even that close.
Oliveira is like that relative frequent occurrence of some 100-150 ranked player winning a golf major when they catch fire for a few rounds.
Still very damn impressive but it doesn’t immediately elevate them into the elite, they’re still just an average pro (still incredible by regular standards) who had a great tournament.
I’m actually surprised that really, aside from Oliveira we’ve rarely had many rank outsiders have a great weekend and take the WC, it’s almost always somebody who’d be considered among the contenders going in. $o$ first time maybe, but then he subsequently established elite credentials.
On January 31 2024 06:52 Locutos wrote: I honestly think that the Top 10 list for GOAT is boring.
The Top 11- Top 20 would be much more fun to make.
Trying to compare the likes of Stephano, Parting, MC, Taeja, Reynor, Clem, Solar, Nestea etc
Here is an extremely fun question: Who is the greater foreigner - Clem or Oliveira?
Clam, and it’s not even that close.
Oliveira is like that relative frequent occurrence of some 100-150 ranked player winning a golf major when they catch fire for a few rounds.
Still very damn impressive but it doesn’t immediately elevate them into the elite, they’re still just an average pro (still incredible by regular standards) who had a great tournament.
I’m actually surprised that really, aside from Oliveira we’ve rarely had many rank outsiders have a great weekend and take the WC, it’s almost always somebody who’d be considered among the contenders going in. $o$ first time maybe, but then he subsequently established elite credentials.
I don't know mate but Oliveira does have more world championships than Clem Maru and Innovation combined ain't that a strong argument? /s
On January 31 2024 06:52 Locutos wrote: I honestly think that the Top 10 list for GOAT is boring.
The Top 11- Top 20 would be much more fun to make.
Trying to compare the likes of Stephano, Parting, MC, Taeja, Reynor, Clem, Solar, Nestea etc
Here is an extremely fun question: Who is the greater foreigner - Clem or Oliveira?
Clam, and it’s not even that close.
Oliveira is like that relative frequent occurrence of some 100-150 ranked player winning a golf major when they catch fire for a few rounds.
Still very damn impressive but it doesn’t immediately elevate them into the elite, they’re still just an average pro (still incredible by regular standards) who had a great tournament.
I’m actually surprised that really, aside from Oliveira we’ve rarely had many rank outsiders have a great weekend and take the WC, it’s almost always somebody who’d be considered among the contenders going in. $o$ first time maybe, but then he subsequently established elite credentials.
On January 31 2024 06:52 Locutos wrote: I honestly think that the Top 10 list for GOAT is boring.
The Top 11- Top 20 would be much more fun to make.
Trying to compare the likes of Stephano, Parting, MC, Taeja, Reynor, Clem, Solar, Nestea etc
Here is an extremely fun question: Who is the greater foreigner - Clem or Oliveira?
Clam, and it’s not even that close.
Oliveira is like that relative frequent occurrence of some 100-150 ranked player winning a golf major when they catch fire for a few rounds.
Still very damn impressive but it doesn’t immediately elevate them into the elite, they’re still just an average pro (still incredible by regular standards) who had a great tournament.
I’m actually surprised that really, aside from Oliveira we’ve rarely had many rank outsiders have a great weekend and take the WC, it’s almost always somebody who’d be considered among the contenders going in. $o$ first time maybe, but then he subsequently established elite credentials.
On January 31 2024 06:52 Locutos wrote: I honestly think that the Top 10 list for GOAT is boring.
The Top 11- Top 20 would be much more fun to make.
Trying to compare the likes of Stephano, Parting, MC, Taeja, Reynor, Clem, Solar, Nestea etc
While I do love myself a good old top 10, this was my reasoning when I did the whole TL.net Goat tournament/contest as a top 128. It lead to some very interesting reflection on player we seldom think about. Sure we all have an opinion on Maru vs Serral, but what about HyuN vs Elazer? Jjakji vs Ragnarok? Clem vs Gumiho? Zoun vs Rainbow?
It is really interesting to look at those wide-spread accomplishments. When I did my "Top 2 Finishes in Premier events"-list, I learned so much unexpected stuff. ByuN for example never lost a Premier finals. MaNa reached the finals of atleast one Premier event in each addon, being one of only four players who did so - and the only foreigner. Also...Heromarine, before Clem often mentioned in the same breath as Serral and Reynor when you talked about top-dog foreigners never actually managed to reach a Premier event final.
Ofc "reached a final in a Premier event" isn't a particularly strong metric, but interesting nevertheless
(also, funfact: With MC7 done, South Korea actually has a negative score in Finals - 218 won vs. 219 loss. Of course most of these are Korean vs. Korean, but still funny that Koreans lost more finals than they won...technically)
On February 01 2024 06:33 Balnazza wrote: It is really interesting to look at those wide-spread accomplishments. When I did my "Top 2 Finishes in Premier events"-list, I learned so much unexpected stuff. ByuN for example never lost a Premier finals. MaNa reached the finals of atleast one Premier event in each addon, being one of only four players who did so - and the only foreigner. Also...Heromarine, before Clem often mentioned in the same breath as Serral and Reynor when you talked about top-dog foreigners never actually managed to reach a Premier event final.
Ofc "reached a final in a Premier event" isn't a particularly strong metric, but interesting nevertheless
(also, funfact: With MC7 done, South Korea actually has a negative score in Finals - 218 won vs. 219 loss. Of course most of these are Korean vs. Korean, but still funny that Koreans lost more finals than they won...technically)
The Korean final stats is kind of crazy. Wild how SC2 changed through the years.
On February 01 2024 06:33 Balnazza wrote: It is really interesting to look at those wide-spread accomplishments. When I did my "Top 2 Finishes in Premier events"-list, I learned so much unexpected stuff. ByuN for example never lost a Premier finals. MaNa reached the finals of atleast one Premier event in each addon, being one of only four players who did so - and the only foreigner. Also...Heromarine, before Clem often mentioned in the same breath as Serral and Reynor when you talked about top-dog foreigners never actually managed to reach a Premier event final.
Ofc "reached a final in a Premier event" isn't a particularly strong metric, but interesting nevertheless
(also, funfact: With MC7 done, South Korea actually has a negative score in Finals - 218 won vs. 219 loss. Of course most of these are Korean vs. Korean, but still funny that Koreans lost more finals than they won...technically)
Who are the other 3 who appeared in a premier final in every addon?
On February 01 2024 06:33 Balnazza wrote: It is really interesting to look at those wide-spread accomplishments. When I did my "Top 2 Finishes in Premier events"-list, I learned so much unexpected stuff. ByuN for example never lost a Premier finals. MaNa reached the finals of atleast one Premier event in each addon, being one of only four players who did so - and the only foreigner. Also...Heromarine, before Clem often mentioned in the same breath as Serral and Reynor when you talked about top-dog foreigners never actually managed to reach a Premier event final.
Ofc "reached a final in a Premier event" isn't a particularly strong metric, but interesting nevertheless
(also, funfact: With MC7 done, South Korea actually has a negative score in Finals - 218 won vs. 219 loss. Of course most of these are Korean vs. Korean, but still funny that Koreans lost more finals than they won...technically)
Who are the other 3 who appeared in a premier final in every addon?
On February 01 2024 06:33 Balnazza wrote: It is really interesting to look at those wide-spread accomplishments. When I did my "Top 2 Finishes in Premier events"-list, I learned so much unexpected stuff. ByuN for example never lost a Premier finals. MaNa reached the finals of atleast one Premier event in each addon, being one of only four players who did so - and the only foreigner. Also...Heromarine, before Clem often mentioned in the same breath as Serral and Reynor when you talked about top-dog foreigners never actually managed to reach a Premier event final.
Ofc "reached a final in a Premier event" isn't a particularly strong metric, but interesting nevertheless
(also, funfact: With MC7 done, South Korea actually has a negative score in Finals - 218 won vs. 219 loss. Of course most of these are Korean vs. Korean, but still funny that Koreans lost more finals than they won...technically)
Who are the other 3 who appeared in a premier final in every addon?
Maru? DRG? Gumiho?
Actually way crazier than that. The four players who achieved that feat are: MaNa, Polt, PartinG and MMA
Maru/Gumiho never reached Top 2 in WoL, DRG never did it after WoL
Absolutely stretching technicalities here but Stephano did win a Nationwars in LoTV, which is billed as a Premier so he’s (kind of) done the triple of making Premier finals, if not an individual one in Legacy
On February 01 2024 06:33 Balnazza wrote: It is really interesting to look at those wide-spread accomplishments. When I did my "Top 2 Finishes in Premier events"-list, I learned so much unexpected stuff. ByuN for example never lost a Premier finals. MaNa reached the finals of atleast one Premier event in each addon, being one of only four players who did so - and the only foreigner. Also...Heromarine, before Clem often mentioned in the same breath as Serral and Reynor when you talked about top-dog foreigners never actually managed to reach a Premier event final.
Ofc "reached a final in a Premier event" isn't a particularly strong metric, but interesting nevertheless
(also, funfact: With MC7 done, South Korea actually has a negative score in Finals - 218 won vs. 219 loss. Of course most of these are Korean vs. Korean, but still funny that Koreans lost more finals than they won...technically)
Who are the other 3 who appeared in a premier final in every addon?
Maru? DRG? Gumiho?
Actually way crazier than that. The four players who achieved that feat are: MaNa, Polt, PartinG and MMA
Maru/Gumiho never reached Top 2 in WoL, DRG never did it after WoL
Shoutouts to the close-but-not-quite that came to my mind : - Innovation who got ro4 in a WoL GSL, losing to HyuN. - Creator who never made a finals in HotS - Rain who likely would have made a finals in LotV had he continued to play
On February 01 2024 06:33 Balnazza wrote: It is really interesting to look at those wide-spread accomplishments. When I did my "Top 2 Finishes in Premier events"-list, I learned so much unexpected stuff. ByuN for example never lost a Premier finals. MaNa reached the finals of atleast one Premier event in each addon, being one of only four players who did so - and the only foreigner. Also...Heromarine, before Clem often mentioned in the same breath as Serral and Reynor when you talked about top-dog foreigners never actually managed to reach a Premier event final.
Ofc "reached a final in a Premier event" isn't a particularly strong metric, but interesting nevertheless
(also, funfact: With MC7 done, South Korea actually has a negative score in Finals - 218 won vs. 219 loss. Of course most of these are Korean vs. Korean, but still funny that Koreans lost more finals than they won...technically)
Who are the other 3 who appeared in a premier final in every addon?
Maru? DRG? Gumiho?
Actually way crazier than that. The four players who achieved that feat are: MaNa, Polt, PartinG and MMA
Maru/Gumiho never reached Top 2 in WoL, DRG never did it after WoL
Shoutouts to the close-but-not-quite that came to my mind : - Innovation who got ro4 in a WoL GSL, losing to HyuN. - Creator who never made a finals in HotS - Rain who likely would have made a finals in LotV had he continued to play
It’s still wild to me how good Creator was almost out of the gate in bursting onto the scene, and how it took til latter LoTV for him to put in some deep runs again. Fair play to the lad for sticking at it!
On February 01 2024 06:33 Balnazza wrote: It is really interesting to look at those wide-spread accomplishments. When I did my "Top 2 Finishes in Premier events"-list, I learned so much unexpected stuff. ByuN for example never lost a Premier finals. MaNa reached the finals of atleast one Premier event in each addon, being one of only four players who did so - and the only foreigner. Also...Heromarine, before Clem often mentioned in the same breath as Serral and Reynor when you talked about top-dog foreigners never actually managed to reach a Premier event final.
Ofc "reached a final in a Premier event" isn't a particularly strong metric, but interesting nevertheless
(also, funfact: With MC7 done, South Korea actually has a negative score in Finals - 218 won vs. 219 loss. Of course most of these are Korean vs. Korean, but still funny that Koreans lost more finals than they won...technically)
Who are the other 3 who appeared in a premier final in every addon?
Maru? DRG? Gumiho?
Actually way crazier than that. The four players who achieved that feat are: MaNa, Polt, PartinG and MMA
Maru/Gumiho never reached Top 2 in WoL, DRG never did it after WoL
Shoutouts to the close-but-not-quite that came to my mind : - Innovation who got ro4 in a WoL GSL, losing to HyuN. - Creator who never made a finals in HotS - Rain who likely would have made a finals in LotV had he continued to play
It’s still wild to me how good Creator was almost out of the gate in bursting onto the scene, and how it took til latter LoTV for him to put in some deep runs again. Fair play to the lad for sticking at it!
You are severely understating how unlikely Creator having that late career renaissance was. From 2014-2018 (a period that includes 21 seasons of code s/ssl) Creator only qualified for Code S/SSL five times. When he did he always lost in the first round.
He started qualifying more regularly in 2019, but even then he lost in the first round like eight straight seasons and failed to qualify a few more times before randomly being very above average in 2022. So strange.
On February 01 2024 06:33 Balnazza wrote: It is really interesting to look at those wide-spread accomplishments. When I did my "Top 2 Finishes in Premier events"-list, I learned so much unexpected stuff. ByuN for example never lost a Premier finals. MaNa reached the finals of atleast one Premier event in each addon, being one of only four players who did so - and the only foreigner. Also...Heromarine, before Clem often mentioned in the same breath as Serral and Reynor when you talked about top-dog foreigners never actually managed to reach a Premier event final.
Ofc "reached a final in a Premier event" isn't a particularly strong metric, but interesting nevertheless
(also, funfact: With MC7 done, South Korea actually has a negative score in Finals - 218 won vs. 219 loss. Of course most of these are Korean vs. Korean, but still funny that Koreans lost more finals than they won...technically)
Who are the other 3 who appeared in a premier final in every addon?
Maru? DRG? Gumiho?
Actually way crazier than that. The four players who achieved that feat are: MaNa, Polt, PartinG and MMA
Maru/Gumiho never reached Top 2 in WoL, DRG never did it after WoL
Shoutouts to the close-but-not-quite that came to my mind : - Innovation who got ro4 in a WoL GSL, losing to HyuN. - Creator who never made a finals in HotS - Rain who likely would have made a finals in LotV had he continued to play
It’s still wild to me how good Creator was almost out of the gate in bursting onto the scene, and how it took til latter LoTV for him to put in some deep runs again. Fair play to the lad for sticking at it!
You are severely understating how unlikely Creator having that late career renaissance was. From 2014-2018 (a period that includes 21 seasons of code s/ssl) Creator only qualified for Code S/SSL five times. When he did he always lost in the first round.
He started qualifying more regularly in 2019, but even then he lost in the first round like eight straight seasons and failed to qualify a few more times before randomly being very above average in 2022. So strange.
Oh yeah it is strange indeed, you laid out the weirdness quite well. My personal hypothesis is young teen Creator went in pretty fearless as youths do, then after that initial breakthrough the pressure crippled him, and latterly something clicked mentality wise
Indeed I can’t really think of any other explanation!
Maybe I'm miss-remembering, but wasn't Creator also quite famous for not being able to win against Zerg even if his life depended on it? Like he would lose to basically every korean Zerg out there?
On February 01 2024 06:33 Balnazza wrote: It is really interesting to look at those wide-spread accomplishments. When I did my "Top 2 Finishes in Premier events"-list, I learned so much unexpected stuff. ByuN for example never lost a Premier finals. MaNa reached the finals of atleast one Premier event in each addon, being one of only four players who did so - and the only foreigner. Also...Heromarine, before Clem often mentioned in the same breath as Serral and Reynor when you talked about top-dog foreigners never actually managed to reach a Premier event final.
Ofc "reached a final in a Premier event" isn't a particularly strong metric, but interesting nevertheless
(also, funfact: With MC7 done, South Korea actually has a negative score in Finals - 218 won vs. 219 loss. Of course most of these are Korean vs. Korean, but still funny that Koreans lost more finals than they won...technically)
Who are the other 3 who appeared in a premier final in every addon?
Maru? DRG? Gumiho?
Actually way crazier than that. The four players who achieved that feat are: MaNa, Polt, PartinG and MMA
Maru/Gumiho never reached Top 2 in WoL, DRG never did it after WoL
On February 01 2024 06:33 Balnazza wrote: It is really interesting to look at those wide-spread accomplishments. When I did my "Top 2 Finishes in Premier events"-list, I learned so much unexpected stuff. ByuN for example never lost a Premier finals. MaNa reached the finals of atleast one Premier event in each addon, being one of only four players who did so - and the only foreigner. Also...Heromarine, before Clem often mentioned in the same breath as Serral and Reynor when you talked about top-dog foreigners never actually managed to reach a Premier event final.
Ofc "reached a final in a Premier event" isn't a particularly strong metric, but interesting nevertheless
(also, funfact: With MC7 done, South Korea actually has a negative score in Finals - 218 won vs. 219 loss. Of course most of these are Korean vs. Korean, but still funny that Koreans lost more finals than they won...technically)
Who are the other 3 who appeared in a premier final in every addon?
Maru? DRG? Gumiho?
Actually way crazier than that. The four players who achieved that feat are: MaNa, Polt, PartinG and MMA
Maru/Gumiho never reached Top 2 in WoL, DRG never did it after WoL
MMA got a finals in LOTV? WCS EU?
AFAIK it’s the first HSC versus FireCake (and he won it) HomeStory Cup/12
On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote: I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on.
Because this list is more: "the greatest HotS players list", or "proleague players who also had a few other noteworthy achievements list". But since these titles don't get the hype, it's not called that.
In no world is: MVP>Rain>MC, so the list is a bit nonsense and Serral will not be no. 1, because he wasn't part of proleague, so in a way he's not in the competition, he'll just on the list so that it doesn't get discredited.
If it is all about the period from when SC2 was the most popular to its downfall, it would coincide with the time that Life was playing, and while Life was playing he was the GOAT, so in any case the list will be sad.
Yes, it does feel a bit like Miz is just listing "the greatest HotS players" more than anything (until now). But to me, that totally makes sense. The HotS days had the highest number of top-quality players competing. Plus, it was probably when the game was at its most balanced state - it felt like the best player usually came out on top, without the game's balance messing with the results too much.
Since then, though, things have changed a lot. Late LotV has had a decreasing number of top-quality competitors. And the balance in LotV hasn't just been worse; it's been all over the place with each patch - with an average trend of Z being favoured. This inconsistency really makes me second-guess how much the results really mean in LotV. For me it's harder to tell who's genuinely the best.
On February 05 2024 00:31 Xamo wrote: Yes, it does feel a bit like Miz is just listing "the greatest HotS players" more than anything (until now). But to me, that totally makes sense. The HotS days had the highest number of top-quality players competing. Plus, it was probably when the game was at its most balanced state - it felt like the best player usually came out on top, without the game's balance messing with the results too much.
Since then, though, things have changed a lot. Late LotV has had a decreasing number of top-quality competitors. And the balance in LotV hasn't just been worse; it's been all over the place with each patch - with an average trend of Z being favoured. This inconsistency really makes me second-guess how much the results really mean in LotV. For me it's harder to tell who's genuinely the best.
On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote: I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on.
Because this list is more: "the greatest HotS players list", or "proleague players who also had a few other noteworthy achievements list". But since these titles don't get the hype, it's not called that.
In no world is: MVP>Rain>MC, so the list is a bit nonsense and Serral will not be no. 1, because he wasn't part of proleague, so in a way he's not in the competition, he'll just on the list so that it doesn't get discredited.
If it is all about the period from when SC2 was the most popular to its downfall, it would coincide with the time that Life was playing, and while Life was playing he was the GOAT, so in any case the list will be sad.
pre-emptively making excuses for the case of Serral not being at #1? God are you guys insecure.
Also how is Mvp>Rain>MC not true? I don't really see any other order of them that can be justified (Maybe MC>Rain, but either way they're close). And your argument about it just being the gratest HotS players falls flat with TY being in there
On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote: I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on.
Because this list is more: "the greatest HotS players list", or "proleague players who also had a few other noteworthy achievements list". But since these titles don't get the hype, it's not called that.
In no world is: MVP>Rain>MC, so the list is a bit nonsense and Serral will not be no. 1, because he wasn't part of proleague, so in a way he's not in the competition, he'll just on the list so that it doesn't get discredited.
You say that only half way through the list. Serral, INno, Maru, TY, Rogue, and Dark (if he's there) all had their best results in LotV, and even Zest was 50/50.
Over half the list is going to end up with LotV players.
Also, Proleague was the lifeblood of korean sc2 competition for years, of course most of the top 10 would have played in it. Other than Serral, how many players with top 10 resumes didn't play in proleague? And Mvp>Rain>MC is completely correct, I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise to be honest.
On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote: I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on.
Because this list is more: "the greatest HotS players list", or "proleague players who also had a few other noteworthy achievements list". But since these titles don't get the hype, it's not called that.
In no world is: MVP>Rain>MC, so the list is a bit nonsense and Serral will not be no. 1, because he wasn't part of proleague, so in a way he's not in the competition, he'll just on the list so that it doesn't get discredited.
You say that only half way through the list. Serral, INno, Maru, TY, Rogue, and Dark (if he's there) all had their best results in LotV, and even Zest was 50/50.
Over half the list is going to end up with LotV players.
Also, Proleague was the lifeblood of korean sc2 competition for years, of course most of the top 10 would have played in it. Other than Serral, how many players with top 10 resumes didn't play in proleague? And Mvp>Rain>MC is completely correct, I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise to be honest.
Aye can’t disagree with that. MC was a great player but honestly I’d personally stick Taeja above him, never mind herO and Stats.
Maru/Rogue/Serral feel a crapshoot for the number 1 slot. They’ve all got strong claims in certain areas and have a few gaps in their resumes and a lot comes down to how one weighs them. I’ve got my own preferred order but I don’t think any combo will be particularly outrageous.
On February 05 2024 00:31 Xamo wrote: Yes, it does feel a bit like Miz is just listing "the greatest HotS players" more than anything (until now). But to me, that totally makes sense. The HotS days had the highest number of top-quality players competing. Plus, it was probably when the game was at its most balanced state - it felt like the best player usually came out on top, without the game's balance messing with the results too much.
Since then, though, things have changed a lot. Late LotV has had a decreasing number of top-quality competitors. And the balance in LotV hasn't just been worse; it's been all over the place with each patch - with an average trend of Z being favoured. This inconsistency really makes me second-guess how much the results really mean in LotV. For me it's harder to tell who's genuinely the best.
On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote: I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on.
Because this list is more: "the greatest HotS players list", or "proleague players who also had a few other noteworthy achievements list". But since these titles don't get the hype, it's not called that.
In no world is: MVP>Rain>MC, so the list is a bit nonsense and Serral will not be no. 1, because he wasn't part of proleague, so in a way he's not in the competition, he'll just on the list so that it doesn't get discredited.
You say that only half way through the list. Serral, INno, Maru, TY, Rogue, and Dark (if he's there) all had their best results in LotV, and even Zest was 50/50.
Over half the list is going to end up with LotV players.
Also, Proleague was the lifeblood of korean sc2 competition for years, of course most of the top 10 would have played in it. Other than Serral, how many players with top 10 resumes didn't play in proleague? And Mvp>Rain>MC is completely correct, I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise to be honest.
Aye can’t disagree with that. MC was a great player but honestly I’d personally stick Taeja above him, never mind herO and Stats.
Maru/Rogue/Serral feel a crapshoot for the number 1 slot. They’ve all got strong claims in certain areas and have a few gaps in their resumes and a lot comes down to how one weighs them. I’ve got my own preferred order but I don’t think any combo will be particularly outrageous.
Yeah it really comes down to preference.
Maru is the Proleague and Starleague GOAT, and has a 10 year run of consistent deep runs in everything.
Serral is the most dominant player and wins the h2h record against everyone
Rogue is the only player to win multiple World Championship and Starleagues.
Personally I think Maru has the best claim and Rogue has the worst. The only thing Maru falls behind in is World Championships but he still has more ro4+ runs in them than the other two, so it's not like he's a slouch in that department. While at the same time Rogue and Serral can't scratch his Proleague/Starleague results or longevity.
I'm surprised to see this series won't be finished before Kato since the results there could definitely change things. If Maru wins it he'd go from debatable #1 to absolute lock. If Serral wins it his #1 claim is much stronger. At that point I would still personally consider Maru slightly ahead but I think the argument for Maru would have to bring in balance and the eras different competitive levels to justify it. Whereas right now I think Maru is still ahead even if Zerg was never OP and his Kespa era victories aren't worth more. At the least at that point I think Serral takes a fairly clear lead vs Rogue. Dark winning it would make either his potential exclusion even more odd or better justify his #5. Reynor winning it and you could make an argument for him being in the 9-10 range.
I've also been furiously refreshing TL. The last few all came out every 3 days, but we've waited 9 days now for #5. I hope this means that #5-#1 are all gonna be in one post?? I also hope it'll come out before Katowice, since it's the best time to get engagement while everybody's pumped for the tournament
On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote: I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on.
Because this list is more: "the greatest HotS players list", or "proleague players who also had a few other noteworthy achievements list". But since these titles don't get the hype, it's not called that.
In no world is: MVP>Rain>MC, so the list is a bit nonsense and Serral will not be no. 1, because he wasn't part of proleague, so in a way he's not in the competition, he'll just on the list so that it doesn't get discredited.
You say that only half way through the list. Serral, INno, Maru, TY, Rogue, and Dark (if he's there) all had their best results in LotV, and even Zest was 50/50.
Over half the list is going to end up with LotV players.
Also, Proleague was the lifeblood of korean sc2 competition for years, of course most of the top 10 would have played in it. Other than Serral, how many players with top 10 resumes didn't play in proleague? And Mvp>Rain>MC is completely correct, I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise to be honest.
Aye can’t disagree with that. MC was a great player but honestly I’d personally stick Taeja above him, never mind herO and Stats.
Maru/Rogue/Serral feel a crapshoot for the number 1 slot. They’ve all got strong claims in certain areas and have a few gaps in their resumes and a lot comes down to how one weighs them. I’ve got my own preferred order but I don’t think any combo will be particularly outrageous.
Maru is the Proleague and Starleague GOAT, and has a 10 year run of consistent deep runs in everything.
Serral is the most dominant player and wins the h2h record against everyone.
Yes. In my view, this makes Serral the all-time GoaT, and Maru the Pro League and Star League GoaT, as you said.
Attempting to declare Maru the all-time GoaT, while simultaneously conceding that Serral is superior in terms of head-to-head record, not only to him, but also to the rest of all other top-tier players to me is a contradiction in terms.
I think many people here on TL interpret GoaT as meaning "the player with the most notable historical periods of relative dominance regardless of whether or not he has later been bested by others". And of course, that's a definition one can perfectly subscribe to.
But for me, it's a given that the GoaT of SCII is the player who is the greatest of all times at playing SCII. And that's Serral.
I'm a little suspicious that there will be a copout with a tie somewhere. Maybe at #1 with Maru/Serral? I guess we'd know if that's coming well before the final few articles.
On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote: I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on.
Because this list is more: "the greatest HotS players list", or "proleague players who also had a few other noteworthy achievements list". But since these titles don't get the hype, it's not called that.
In no world is: MVP>Rain>MC, so the list is a bit nonsense and Serral will not be no. 1, because he wasn't part of proleague, so in a way he's not in the competition, he'll just on the list so that it doesn't get discredited.
You say that only half way through the list. Serral, INno, Maru, TY, Rogue, and Dark (if he's there) all had their best results in LotV, and even Zest was 50/50.
Over half the list is going to end up with LotV players.
Also, Proleague was the lifeblood of korean sc2 competition for years, of course most of the top 10 would have played in it. Other than Serral, how many players with top 10 resumes didn't play in proleague? And Mvp>Rain>MC is completely correct, I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise to be honest.
Aye can’t disagree with that. MC was a great player but honestly I’d personally stick Taeja above him, never mind herO and Stats.
Maru/Rogue/Serral feel a crapshoot for the number 1 slot. They’ve all got strong claims in certain areas and have a few gaps in their resumes and a lot comes down to how one weighs them. I’ve got my own preferred order but I don’t think any combo will be particularly outrageous.
Maru is the Proleague and Starleague GOAT, and has a 10 year run of consistent deep runs in everything.
Serral is the most dominant player and wins the h2h record against everyone.
Yes. In my view, this makes Serral the all-time GoaT, and Maru the Pro League and Star League GoaT, as you said.
Attempting to declare Maru the all-time GoaT, while simultaneously conceding that Serral is superior in terms of head-to-head record, not only to him, but also to the rest of all other top-tier players to me is a contradiction in terms.
I think many people here on TL interpret GoaT as meaning "the player with the most notable historical periods of relative dominance regardless of whether or not he has later been bested by others". And of course, that's a definition one can perfectly subscribe to.
But for me, it's a given that the GoaT of SCII is the player who is the greatest of all times at playing SCII. And that's Serral.
I think this is a common but minority definition of GOAT, and I personally don't like it.
SC2 has been out since 2010. Imagine that somebody wins every single tournament until 2022; we can pretend this is Fruitdealer. Then a second player comes onto the scene and wins everything from 2022-present, who we can pretend is Harstem. Suppose that the head-to-head is heavily in favor of Harstem, who has a significantly positive head-to-head vs Fruitdealer and everybody else in the scene. Who would you call the GOAT here?
Under your criterion, Harstem is the best player the game has ever produced, and has the best winrates against everybody. But I think you'd find very few people who would put Harstem above Fruitdealer in this [very hypothetical] scenario. Otherwise, the GOAT of any game will always be the current best player, (since the level of play in every game improves over time), so I don't think that criterion is an interesting one. Otherwise, we wouldn't have separate names for "the GOAT" and "the best player in the world."
It's such a lazy way to shut down what is otherwise a very interesting conversation. The question "who, given the tools of their time, seemed the most impressive?" which has so much room for conversation and discussion. But instead, the question "who would win the most against each other" results extremely rarely in interesting conversations: the more modern player almost invariably wins, regardless of sport or time period.
In other news, I will click refresh again. It's funny that the thread for Zest (which is probably the least controversial pick so far) has the most activity, simply because everybody is chatting on here while waiting for #5 to come out! Not complaining, I just think it's funny, and shows that we're all super invested in this list
As an aside I'll say I'm very happy with how resilient the scene turned out to be this last year. I know there was talk that the GOAT debate was over (in terms of important accomplishments) because this was "it", but all the tournaments have been such high quality that I don't think people would say that anymore. Still plenty of history to be written
On February 05 2024 08:55 yubo56 wrote: SC2 has been out since 2010. Imagine that somebody wins every single tournament until 2022; we can pretend this is Fruitdealer. Then a second player comes onto the scene and wins everything from 2022-present, who we can pretend is Harstem. Suppose that the head-to-head is heavily in favor of Harstem, who has a significantly positive head-to-head vs Fruitdealer and everybody else in the scene. Who would you call the GOAT here?
I agree that head-to-head record or overall ranking is not the sole criterion for the GoaT; in my view, it's just, almost by definition, the most important one. But surely other criteria are relevant, too. One such criterion, as you imply, is the duration of dominance; another one is the ratio between that figure to the overall time active in competitive play.
But this leads to the second thing: The hypothetical scenario is not faithful to reality anyway, because Serral's dominance has not occured over a tiny fraction of the game's lifetime; it has persisted for the most part of more than six years, which is almost half of the age of SCII. Furthermore, Serral has been more consistent in his results than any other player who has ever touched the game. So even the other two aforementioned criteria do not challenge Serral's status.
On February 05 2024 08:55 yubo56 wrote: The question "who, given the tools of their time, seemed the most impressive?" which has so much room for conversation and discussion.
Yes. But as mentioned above, Serral and Maru have played the exact same game, using "the tools of their time", for more than six years. And it is exactly in these six years that Serral has accumulated his positive record against Maru and all the other players.
On February 05 2024 08:55 yubo56 wrote: But instead, the question "who would win the most against each other" results extremely rarely in interesting conversations: the more modern player almost invariably wins, regardless of sport or time period.
This is true. But again, it is not really material to the debate about Serral vs. Maru, because Serral and Maru have simultaneously played in the same era for more than six years. It's not a matter of "the classical player" against "the modern player", unless you do not consider Maru a modern player.
Furthermore, while I agree that historical performance is important, I think it is equally important not to make it a necessary condition for GoaTness. Otherwise, no person could ever achieve the GoaT status, in any game, unless they have played it from the time of its inception, which is absurd. For example, according to this interpretation, neither Kasparov or Carlsen, nor LeBron James could be the GoaTs of their respective sports.
On February 05 2024 08:55 yubo56 wrote: Otherwise, we wouldn't have separate names for "the GOAT" and "the best player in the world."
Facts about words (or symbols tout court) say nothing about concepts. We also have the separate phrases "bachelor" and "unmarried man", and still they denote the same concept.
On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote: I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on.
Because this list is more: "the greatest HotS players list", or "proleague players who also had a few other noteworthy achievements list". But since these titles don't get the hype, it's not called that.
In no world is: MVP>Rain>MC, so the list is a bit nonsense and Serral will not be no. 1, because he wasn't part of proleague, so in a way he's not in the competition, he'll just on the list so that it doesn't get discredited.
You say that only half way through the list. Serral, INno, Maru, TY, Rogue, and Dark (if he's there) all had their best results in LotV, and even Zest was 50/50.
Over half the list is going to end up with LotV players.
Also, Proleague was the lifeblood of korean sc2 competition for years, of course most of the top 10 would have played in it. Other than Serral, how many players with top 10 resumes didn't play in proleague? And Mvp>Rain>MC is completely correct, I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise to be honest.
Aye can’t disagree with that. MC was a great player but honestly I’d personally stick Taeja above him, never mind herO and Stats.
Maru/Rogue/Serral feel a crapshoot for the number 1 slot. They’ve all got strong claims in certain areas and have a few gaps in their resumes and a lot comes down to how one weighs them. I’ve got my own preferred order but I don’t think any combo will be particularly outrageous.
Maru is the Proleague and Starleague GOAT, and has a 10 year run of consistent deep runs in everything.
Serral is the most dominant player and wins the h2h record against everyone.
Yes. In my view, this makes Serral the all-time GoaT, and Maru the Pro League and Star League GoaT, as you said.
Attempting to declare Maru the all-time GoaT, while simultaneously conceding that Serral is superior in terms of head-to-head record, not only to him, but also to the rest of all other top-tier players to me is a contradiction in terms.
You need to realise there are far, far more achievements in sc2 than h2h record. Like for example, results in tournaments. Along with championships, consistency, longevity, winning in different formats, winning in times of rough balance, impact on the game etc.
And if nothing else, players peak and compete in different eras and tournaments. Hell, Maru was already high on the GOAT list before Serral was a full time player. Serral overtook Maru in h2h in 2021. They actually barely played until the online era.
Simply put, a player can have the greater career accomplishments while not winning the head to head record. Additionally, some tournaments are just less important, who cares if you have a winning h2h if the other guy won when it mattered?
Proleague and Starleagues were the pinnacle of sc2 competition for most of it's existence. And Serral never even tried to compete in them, two entire formats of SC2 (arguably the most challenging and competitive ones, or least challenging in different ways) that he did nothing in. Like I said, Serral wins in h2h and Weekend tournaments, but Maru crushes everyone in Starleague/Proleague by a bigger margin. And has a much longer record of winning in different eras and adapting to different metas
On February 05 2024 08:55 yubo56 wrote: SC2 has been out since 2010. Imagine that somebody wins every single tournament until 2022; we can pretend this is Fruitdealer. Then a second player comes onto the scene and wins everything from 2022-present, who we can pretend is Harstem. Suppose that the head-to-head is heavily in favor of Harstem, who has a significantly positive head-to-head vs Fruitdealer and everybody else in the scene. Who would you call the GOAT here?
I agree that head-to-head record or overall ranking is not the sole criterion for the GoaT; in my view, it's just, almost by definition, the most important one. But surely other criteria are relevant, too. One such criterion, as you imply, is the duration of dominance; another one is the ratio between that figure to the overall time active in competitive play.
But this leads to the second thing: The hypothetical scenario is not faithful to reality anyway, because Serral's dominance has not occured over a tiny fraction of the game's lifetime; it has persisted for the most part of more than six years, which is almost half of the age of SCII. Furthermore, Serral has been more consistent in his results than any other player who has ever touched the game. So even the other two aforementioned criteria do not challenge Serral's status.
I think you're being silly about this. Serral was effectively not relevant for any of the MOST COMPETITIVE era of the game (2012 to 2016). He couldn't even have a head to head with Maru for years because he was never even competitive enough to face him until 2016, with their first match being 2018, despite being a player since at least 2012. You are forcefully ignoring the fact that Serral sucked for 4 years, only becoming top-tier in LotV. Maru on the other hand had been a relevant player for almost his entire career and almost the entire length of the game. The head to head actually doesn't matter when they hadn't even faced each other for 7 years of the game. After all, according to head-to-head, Welmu is better than Serral.
Serral is still amazing. I don't think anyone is going to argue against that. But it's ridiculous to say you only get graded for the time you were good at the game and not the years you were bad when we're talking about all time.
On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote: I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on.
Because this list is more: "the greatest HotS players list", or "proleague players who also had a few other noteworthy achievements list". But since these titles don't get the hype, it's not called that.
In no world is: MVP>Rain>MC, so the list is a bit nonsense and Serral will not be no. 1, because he wasn't part of proleague, so in a way he's not in the competition, he'll just on the list so that it doesn't get discredited.
You say that only half way through the list. Serral, INno, Maru, TY, Rogue, and Dark (if he's there) all had their best results in LotV, and even Zest was 50/50.
Over half the list is going to end up with LotV players.
Also, Proleague was the lifeblood of korean sc2 competition for years, of course most of the top 10 would have played in it. Other than Serral, how many players with top 10 resumes didn't play in proleague? And Mvp>Rain>MC is completely correct, I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise to be honest.
Aye can’t disagree with that. MC was a great player but honestly I’d personally stick Taeja above him, never mind herO and Stats.
Maru/Rogue/Serral feel a crapshoot for the number 1 slot. They’ve all got strong claims in certain areas and have a few gaps in their resumes and a lot comes down to how one weighs them. I’ve got my own preferred order but I don’t think any combo will be particularly outrageous.
Maru is the Proleague and Starleague GOAT, and has a 10 year run of consistent deep runs in everything.
Serral is the most dominant player and wins the h2h record against everyone.
Yes. In my view, this makes Serral the all-time GoaT, and Maru the Pro League and Star League GoaT, as you said.
Attempting to declare Maru the all-time GoaT, while simultaneously conceding that Serral is superior in terms of head-to-head record, not only to him, but also to the rest of all other top-tier players to me is a contradiction in terms.
You need to realise there are far, far more achievements in sc2 than h2h record. Like for example, results in tournaments. Along with championships, consistency, longevity, winning in different formats, winning in times of rough balance, impact on the game etc.
And if nothing else, players peak and compete in different eras and tournaments. Hell, Maru was already high on the GOAT list before Serral was a full time player. Serral overtook Maru in h2h in 2021. They actually barely played until the online era.
Simply put, a player can have the greater career accomplishments while not winning the head to head record. Additionally, some tournaments are just less important, who cares if you have a winning h2h if the other guy won when it mattered?
Proleague and Starleagues were the pinnacle of sc2 competition for most of it's existence. And Serral never even tried to compete in them, two entire formats of SC2 (arguably the most challenging and competitive ones, or least challenging in different ways) that he did nothing in. Like I said, Serral wins in h2h and Weekend tournaments, but Maru crushes everyone in Starleague/Proleague by a bigger margin. And has a much longer record of winning in different eras and adapting to different metas
Possibly controversial opinion but I think Proleague can be somewhat overrated when looking at an individual in GOAT sense.
Great competition and high-level games though it gave us. Purely because of what makes it great, a lot of prep and its team nature. And how does one quantify the teamwork element and the collaboration within? How many of those wins are down to your team, or down to a coach planning something you grind and grind down?
I mean I think this is still a factor in prep individual tournaments too, albeit less so, but it does add a bunch of (pretty much unknowable) variables into the equation. How good’s your team, your collective set planning, where are you entering a match? Does the other team try to snipe your super-ace, or send out a sacrificial lamb to focus on other sets?
Again not a knock on Proleague, I do love different formats, prep and genuine team competition, but I don’t think it translates on a 1:1 when we’re talking individual greatness for the aforementioned reasons.
On February 05 2024 08:55 yubo56 wrote: SC2 has been out since 2010. Imagine that somebody wins every single tournament until 2022; we can pretend this is Fruitdealer. Then a second player comes onto the scene and wins everything from 2022-present, who we can pretend is Harstem. Suppose that the head-to-head is heavily in favor of Harstem, who has a significantly positive head-to-head vs Fruitdealer and everybody else in the scene. Who would you call the GOAT here?
I agree that head-to-head record or overall ranking is not the sole criterion for the GoaT; in my view, it's just, almost by definition, the most important one. But surely other criteria are relevant, too. One such criterion, as you imply, is the duration of dominance; another one is the ratio between that figure to the overall time active in competitive play.
But this leads to the second thing: The hypothetical scenario is not faithful to reality anyway, because Serral's dominance has not occured over a tiny fraction of the game's lifetime; it has persisted for the most part of more than six years, which is almost half of the age of SCII. Furthermore, Serral has been more consistent in his results than any other player who has ever touched the game. So even the other two aforementioned criteria do not challenge Serral's status.
I think you're being silly about this. Serral was effectively not relevant for any of the MOST COMPETITIVE era of the game (2012 to 2016). He couldn't even have a head to head with Maru for years because he was never even competitive enough to face him until 2016, with their first match being 2018, despite being a player since at least 2012. You are forcefully ignoring the fact that Serral sucked for 4 years, only becoming top-tier in LotV. Maru on the other hand had been a relevant player for almost his entire career and almost the entire length of the game. The head to head actually doesn't matter when they hadn't even faced each other for 7 years of the game. After all, according to head-to-head, Welmu is better than Serral.
Serral is still amazing. I don't think anyone is going to argue against that. But it's ridiculous to say you only get graded for the time you were good at the game and not the years you were bad when we're talking about all time.
Maru didn't do much in the "most competitive era" either, atleast not in Solo-tournaments. 2 Premier wins (and 1 second place) in HotS ranks him kind of in the field of Dear, Soulkey and LiquidHerO. Which leaves Proleague, which is always hard to judge. Yes he had great stats eventually, but that always heavily depends on your team aswell. Also, if you put up Teamleague scores high up, you also have to filter in the results of that team - and while Jin Air didn't do terrible, I wouldn't necessarily put them up as the best Proleague team ever either.
Also...can we retire that "Serral did so much worse in the first few years"-thing? Dude literally still went to school and was not a fulltime-progamer. Of course he did badly or was somewhere in the middle at best. I highly doubt he even could have done much before the age of atleast 16 in Europe. The first year Serral went fulltime pro, he literally crushed everyone and became World Champion. That's what is important. Comparing the numbers before that is really like saying "Lol, LeBron James did throw his first basket with 10 and couldn't beat any NBA player, what a loser"
On February 05 2024 08:55 yubo56 wrote: SC2 has been out since 2010. Imagine that somebody wins every single tournament until 2022; we can pretend this is Fruitdealer. Then a second player comes onto the scene and wins everything from 2022-present, who we can pretend is Harstem. Suppose that the head-to-head is heavily in favor of Harstem, who has a significantly positive head-to-head vs Fruitdealer and everybody else in the scene. Who would you call the GOAT here?
I agree that head-to-head record or overall ranking is not the sole criterion for the GoaT; in my view, it's just, almost by definition, the most important one. But surely other criteria are relevant, too. One such criterion, as you imply, is the duration of dominance; another one is the ratio between that figure to the overall time active in competitive play.
But this leads to the second thing: The hypothetical scenario is not faithful to reality anyway, because Serral's dominance has not occured over a tiny fraction of the game's lifetime; it has persisted for the most part of more than six years, which is almost half of the age of SCII. Furthermore, Serral has been more consistent in his results than any other player who has ever touched the game. So even the other two aforementioned criteria do not challenge Serral's status.
I think you're being silly about this. Serral was effectively not relevant for any of the MOST COMPETITIVE era of the game (2012 to 2016). He couldn't even have a head to head with Maru for years because he was never even competitive enough to face him until 2016, with their first match being 2018, despite being a player since at least 2012. You are forcefully ignoring the fact that Serral sucked for 4 years, only becoming top-tier in LotV. Maru on the other hand had been a relevant player for almost his entire career and almost the entire length of the game. The head to head actually doesn't matter when they hadn't even faced each other for 7 years of the game. After all, according to head-to-head, Welmu is better than Serral.
Serral is still amazing. I don't think anyone is going to argue against that. But it's ridiculous to say you only get graded for the time you were good at the game and not the years you were bad when we're talking about all time.
The first year Serral went fulltime pro, he literally crushed everyone and became World Champion. That's what is important. Comparing the numbers before that is really like saying "Lol, LeBron James did throw his first basket with 10 and couldn't beat any NBA player, what a loser"
Not true. Serral went fulltime in 2017, and did not manage to win any notable tournaments in that year.
On February 05 2024 08:55 yubo56 wrote: SC2 has been out since 2010. Imagine that somebody wins every single tournament until 2022; we can pretend this is Fruitdealer. Then a second player comes onto the scene and wins everything from 2022-present, who we can pretend is Harstem. Suppose that the head-to-head is heavily in favor of Harstem, who has a significantly positive head-to-head vs Fruitdealer and everybody else in the scene. Who would you call the GOAT here?
I agree that head-to-head record or overall ranking is not the sole criterion for the GoaT; in my view, it's just, almost by definition, the most important one. But surely other criteria are relevant, too. One such criterion, as you imply, is the duration of dominance; another one is the ratio between that figure to the overall time active in competitive play.
But this leads to the second thing: The hypothetical scenario is not faithful to reality anyway, because Serral's dominance has not occured over a tiny fraction of the game's lifetime; it has persisted for the most part of more than six years, which is almost half of the age of SCII. Furthermore, Serral has been more consistent in his results than any other player who has ever touched the game. So even the other two aforementioned criteria do not challenge Serral's status.
I think you're being silly about this. Serral was effectively not relevant for any of the MOST COMPETITIVE era of the game (2012 to 2016). He couldn't even have a head to head with Maru for years because he was never even competitive enough to face him until 2016, with their first match being 2018, despite being a player since at least 2012. You are forcefully ignoring the fact that Serral sucked for 4 years, only becoming top-tier in LotV. Maru on the other hand had been a relevant player for almost his entire career and almost the entire length of the game. The head to head actually doesn't matter when they hadn't even faced each other for 7 years of the game. After all, according to head-to-head, Welmu is better than Serral.
Serral is still amazing. I don't think anyone is going to argue against that. But it's ridiculous to say you only get graded for the time you were good at the game and not the years you were bad when we're talking about all time.
Maru didn't do much in the "most competitive era" either, atleast not in Solo-tournaments. 2 Premier wins (and 1 second place) in HotS ranks him kind of in the field of Dear, Soulkey and LiquidHerO. Which leaves Proleague, which is always hard to judge. Yes he had great stats eventually, but that always heavily depends on your team aswell. Also, if you put up Teamleague scores high up, you also have to filter in the results of that team - and while Jin Air didn't do terrible, I wouldn't necessarily put them up as the best Proleague team ever either.
Also...can we retire that "Serral did so much worse in the first few years"-thing? Dude literally still went to school and was not a fulltime-progamer. Of course he did badly or was somewhere in the middle at best. I highly doubt he even could have done much before the age of atleast 16 in Europe. The first year Serral went fulltime pro, he literally crushed everyone and became World Champion. That's what is important. Comparing the numbers before that is really like saying "Lol, LeBron James did throw his first basket with 10 and couldn't beat any NBA player, what a loser"
I mean, Maru is literally just one year older than Serral. Obviously culture differences and whatever regarding video games influences their ability to play. But my point is really that it's stupid to look at head to head when Serral wasn't even relevant yet. Maru was relevant in 2012 and one of the best of 2013. Despite being 16!
Also, Maru won WCS KR, and placed top 4 in almost every other event in 2013. I'd argue he was a top 10 player for every year since then except 2016. And being top 10 back then was actually impressive, whereas now it means very little. But I'm really not that bothered by people considering Serral a bigger GOAT than Maru. I just don't think that being good in the current 2020+ era counts for much any more. I'm far more impressed with a GSL win any time between 2012 and 2016 than I am with a global finals win today.
On February 05 2024 08:55 yubo56 wrote: SC2 has been out since 2010. Imagine that somebody wins every single tournament until 2022; we can pretend this is Fruitdealer. Then a second player comes onto the scene and wins everything from 2022-present, who we can pretend is Harstem. Suppose that the head-to-head is heavily in favor of Harstem, who has a significantly positive head-to-head vs Fruitdealer and everybody else in the scene. Who would you call the GOAT here?
I agree that head-to-head record or overall ranking is not the sole criterion for the GoaT; in my view, it's just, almost by definition, the most important one. But surely other criteria are relevant, too. One such criterion, as you imply, is the duration of dominance; another one is the ratio between that figure to the overall time active in competitive play.
But this leads to the second thing: The hypothetical scenario is not faithful to reality anyway, because Serral's dominance has not occured over a tiny fraction of the game's lifetime; it has persisted for the most part of more than six years, which is almost half of the age of SCII. Furthermore, Serral has been more consistent in his results than any other player who has ever touched the game. So even the other two aforementioned criteria do not challenge Serral's status.
I think you're being silly about this. Serral was effectively not relevant for any of the MOST COMPETITIVE era of the game (2012 to 2016). He couldn't even have a head to head with Maru for years because he was never even competitive enough to face him until 2016, with their first match being 2018, despite being a player since at least 2012. You are forcefully ignoring the fact that Serral sucked for 4 years, only becoming top-tier in LotV. Maru on the other hand had been a relevant player for almost his entire career and almost the entire length of the game. The head to head actually doesn't matter when they hadn't even faced each other for 7 years of the game. After all, according to head-to-head, Welmu is better than Serral.
Serral is still amazing. I don't think anyone is going to argue against that. But it's ridiculous to say you only get graded for the time you were good at the game and not the years you were bad when we're talking about all time.
The first year Serral went fulltime pro, he literally crushed everyone and became World Champion. That's what is important. Comparing the numbers before that is really like saying "Lol, LeBron James did throw his first basket with 10 and couldn't beat any NBA player, what a loser"
Not true. Serral went fulltime in 2017, and did not manage to win any notable tournaments in that year.
It is not only a "cultural difference" - you simply couldn't go pro with 13 in Europe. Not possible, neither legally nor economically.
On February 05 2024 08:55 yubo56 wrote: SC2 has been out since 2010. Imagine that somebody wins every single tournament until 2022; we can pretend this is Fruitdealer. Then a second player comes onto the scene and wins everything from 2022-present, who we can pretend is Harstem. Suppose that the head-to-head is heavily in favor of Harstem, who has a significantly positive head-to-head vs Fruitdealer and everybody else in the scene. Who would you call the GOAT here?
I agree that head-to-head record or overall ranking is not the sole criterion for the GoaT; in my view, it's just, almost by definition, the most important one. But surely other criteria are relevant, too. One such criterion, as you imply, is the duration of dominance; another one is the ratio between that figure to the overall time active in competitive play.
But this leads to the second thing: The hypothetical scenario is not faithful to reality anyway, because Serral's dominance has not occured over a tiny fraction of the game's lifetime; it has persisted for the most part of more than six years, which is almost half of the age of SCII. Furthermore, Serral has been more consistent in his results than any other player who has ever touched the game. So even the other two aforementioned criteria do not challenge Serral's status.
I think you're being silly about this. Serral was effectively not relevant for any of the MOST COMPETITIVE era of the game (2012 to 2016). He couldn't even have a head to head with Maru for years because he was never even competitive enough to face him until 2016, with their first match being 2018, despite being a player since at least 2012. You are forcefully ignoring the fact that Serral sucked for 4 years, only becoming top-tier in LotV. Maru on the other hand had been a relevant player for almost his entire career and almost the entire length of the game. The head to head actually doesn't matter when they hadn't even faced each other for 7 years of the game. After all, according to head-to-head, Welmu is better than Serral.
Serral is still amazing. I don't think anyone is going to argue against that. But it's ridiculous to say you only get graded for the time you were good at the game and not the years you were bad when we're talking about all time.
Maru didn't do much in the "most competitive era" either, atleast not in Solo-tournaments. 2 Premier wins (and 1 second place) in HotS ranks him kind of in the field of Dear, Soulkey and LiquidHerO. Which leaves Proleague, which is always hard to judge. Yes he had great stats eventually, but that always heavily depends on your team aswell. Also, if you put up Teamleague scores high up, you also have to filter in the results of that team - and while Jin Air didn't do terrible, I wouldn't necessarily put them up as the best Proleague team ever either.
Also...can we retire that "Serral did so much worse in the first few years"-thing? Dude literally still went to school and was not a fulltime-progamer. Of course he did badly or was somewhere in the middle at best. I highly doubt he even could have done much before the age of atleast 16 in Europe. The first year Serral went fulltime pro, he literally crushed everyone and became World Champion. That's what is important. Comparing the numbers before that is really like saying "Lol, LeBron James did throw his first basket with 10 and couldn't beat any NBA player, what a loser"
I mean, Maru is literally just one year older than Serral. Obviously culture differences and whatever regarding video games influences their ability to play. But my point is really that it's stupid to look at head to head when Serral wasn't even relevant yet. Maru was relevant in 2012 and one of the best of 2013. Despite being 16!
Also, Maru won WCS KR, and placed top 4 in almost every other event in 2013. I'd argue he was a top 10 player for every year since then except 2016. And being top 10 back then was actually impressive, whereas now it means very little. But I'm really not that bothered by people considering Serral a bigger GOAT than Maru. I just don't think that being good in the current 2020+ era counts for much any more. I'm far more impressed with a GSL win any time between 2012 and 2016 than I am with a global finals win today.
It is not only a "cultural difference", it is simply not possible to go pro with 13 in Europe. Neither legally nor economically (at the time atleast). Maru went basically pro with 13, which is of course impressive, but it also means he gets to be treated like every other fulltime player, which doesn't make sense to do for Serral pre-2017/18 (or any other player who needed some more time, nothing wrong with that - it is actually quite hard to get into an established gaming scene).
As for your metric to decide the "GOAT"ness of a player: That is of course totally fine, but I just want to point out that Maru being the best can be tricky by that metric. If 2012-2016 are THE years that really count, then Maru is just "kinda there"...mostly a promise that never really fulfilled itself. He only became the very best korean after those years. So basically your GOAT has the defining feature of being young enough that he could stay relevant and "outlived" every other top player instead of surpassing them. Which I personally wouldn't say, but I count everything after Proleague shutdown aswell. But if 2012-2016 is the important metric above everything else...we have to talk about a lot of other players before we mention Maru...
On February 05 2024 08:55 yubo56 wrote: SC2 has been out since 2010. Imagine that somebody wins every single tournament until 2022; we can pretend this is Fruitdealer. Then a second player comes onto the scene and wins everything from 2022-present, who we can pretend is Harstem. Suppose that the head-to-head is heavily in favor of Harstem, who has a significantly positive head-to-head vs Fruitdealer and everybody else in the scene. Who would you call the GOAT here?
I agree that head-to-head record or overall ranking is not the sole criterion for the GoaT; in my view, it's just, almost by definition, the most important one. But surely other criteria are relevant, too. One such criterion, as you imply, is the duration of dominance; another one is the ratio between that figure to the overall time active in competitive play.
But this leads to the second thing: The hypothetical scenario is not faithful to reality anyway, because Serral's dominance has not occured over a tiny fraction of the game's lifetime; it has persisted for the most part of more than six years, which is almost half of the age of SCII. Furthermore, Serral has been more consistent in his results than any other player who has ever touched the game. So even the other two aforementioned criteria do not challenge Serral's status.
I think you're being silly about this. Serral was effectively not relevant for any of the MOST COMPETITIVE era of the game (2012 to 2016). He couldn't even have a head to head with Maru for years because he was never even competitive enough to face him until 2016, with their first match being 2018, despite being a player since at least 2012. You are forcefully ignoring the fact that Serral sucked for 4 years, only becoming top-tier in LotV. Maru on the other hand had been a relevant player for almost his entire career and almost the entire length of the game. The head to head actually doesn't matter when they hadn't even faced each other for 7 years of the game. After all, according to head-to-head, Welmu is better than Serral.
Serral is still amazing. I don't think anyone is going to argue against that. But it's ridiculous to say you only get graded for the time you were good at the game and not the years you were bad when we're talking about all time.
The first year Serral went fulltime pro, he literally crushed everyone and became World Champion. That's what is important. Comparing the numbers before that is really like saying "Lol, LeBron James did throw his first basket with 10 and couldn't beat any NBA player, what a loser"
Not true. Serral went fulltime in 2017, and did not manage to win any notable tournaments in that year.
It is not only a "cultural difference" - you simply couldn't go pro with 13 in Europe. Not possible, neither legally nor economically.
On February 05 2024 08:55 yubo56 wrote: SC2 has been out since 2010. Imagine that somebody wins every single tournament until 2022; we can pretend this is Fruitdealer. Then a second player comes onto the scene and wins everything from 2022-present, who we can pretend is Harstem. Suppose that the head-to-head is heavily in favor of Harstem, who has a significantly positive head-to-head vs Fruitdealer and everybody else in the scene. Who would you call the GOAT here?
I agree that head-to-head record or overall ranking is not the sole criterion for the GoaT; in my view, it's just, almost by definition, the most important one. But surely other criteria are relevant, too. One such criterion, as you imply, is the duration of dominance; another one is the ratio between that figure to the overall time active in competitive play.
But this leads to the second thing: The hypothetical scenario is not faithful to reality anyway, because Serral's dominance has not occured over a tiny fraction of the game's lifetime; it has persisted for the most part of more than six years, which is almost half of the age of SCII. Furthermore, Serral has been more consistent in his results than any other player who has ever touched the game. So even the other two aforementioned criteria do not challenge Serral's status.
I think you're being silly about this. Serral was effectively not relevant for any of the MOST COMPETITIVE era of the game (2012 to 2016). He couldn't even have a head to head with Maru for years because he was never even competitive enough to face him until 2016, with their first match being 2018, despite being a player since at least 2012. You are forcefully ignoring the fact that Serral sucked for 4 years, only becoming top-tier in LotV. Maru on the other hand had been a relevant player for almost his entire career and almost the entire length of the game. The head to head actually doesn't matter when they hadn't even faced each other for 7 years of the game. After all, according to head-to-head, Welmu is better than Serral.
Serral is still amazing. I don't think anyone is going to argue against that. But it's ridiculous to say you only get graded for the time you were good at the game and not the years you were bad when we're talking about all time.
Maru didn't do much in the "most competitive era" either, atleast not in Solo-tournaments. 2 Premier wins (and 1 second place) in HotS ranks him kind of in the field of Dear, Soulkey and LiquidHerO. Which leaves Proleague, which is always hard to judge. Yes he had great stats eventually, but that always heavily depends on your team aswell. Also, if you put up Teamleague scores high up, you also have to filter in the results of that team - and while Jin Air didn't do terrible, I wouldn't necessarily put them up as the best Proleague team ever either.
Also...can we retire that "Serral did so much worse in the first few years"-thing? Dude literally still went to school and was not a fulltime-progamer. Of course he did badly or was somewhere in the middle at best. I highly doubt he even could have done much before the age of atleast 16 in Europe. The first year Serral went fulltime pro, he literally crushed everyone and became World Champion. That's what is important. Comparing the numbers before that is really like saying "Lol, LeBron James did throw his first basket with 10 and couldn't beat any NBA player, what a loser"
I mean, Maru is literally just one year older than Serral. Obviously culture differences and whatever regarding video games influences their ability to play. But my point is really that it's stupid to look at head to head when Serral wasn't even relevant yet. Maru was relevant in 2012 and one of the best of 2013. Despite being 16!
Also, Maru won WCS KR, and placed top 4 in almost every other event in 2013. I'd argue he was a top 10 player for every year since then except 2016. And being top 10 back then was actually impressive, whereas now it means very little. But I'm really not that bothered by people considering Serral a bigger GOAT than Maru. I just don't think that being good in the current 2020+ era counts for much any more. I'm far more impressed with a GSL win any time between 2012 and 2016 than I am with a global finals win today.
It is not only a "cultural difference", it is simply not possible to go pro with 13 in Europe. Neither legally nor economically (at the time atleast). Maru went basically pro with 13, which is of course impressive, but it also means he gets to be treated like every other fulltime player, which doesn't make sense to do for Serral pre-2017/18 (or any other player who needed some more time, nothing wrong with that - it is actually quite hard to get into an established gaming scene).
As for your metric to decide the "GOAT"ness of a player: That is of course totally fine, but I just want to point out that Maru being the best can be tricky by that metric. If 2012-2016 are THE years that really count, then Maru is just "kinda there"...mostly a promise that never really fulfilled itself. He only became the very best korean after those years. So basically your GOAT has the defining feature of being young enough that he could stay relevant and "outlived" every other top player instead of surpassing them. Which I personally wouldn't say, but I count everything after Proleague shutdown aswell. But if 2012-2016 is the important metric above everything else...we have to talk about a lot of other players before we mention Maru...
Aye, and this goes for Rogue even more than Maru, if we’re talking results at SC2’s peak competitive era thru now.
As I’ve said before it’s not a knock on Maru, but his age, getting picked up early, not having to do military service and having an uninterrupted career from the early days thru now are quite fortuitous.
I think it’s perfectly fair to acknowledge the dip in the competitive depth of the scene, so long as people are somewhat consistent in applying a standard.
If Serral’s accomplishments don’t carry as much weight, coming as they do from 2018-now, than they would if he’d been posting similar results like 2012-17, I don’t disagree with that, I don’t think any reasonable observer would.
But Rogue hoovered up much of his honours in that span, and all of his Starleagues. Maru still hasn’t got that WC but most of his international weekenders likewise, and that was something of a gap in his resume.
On February 05 2024 08:55 yubo56 wrote: SC2 has been out since 2010. Imagine that somebody wins every single tournament until 2022; we can pretend this is Fruitdealer. Then a second player comes onto the scene and wins everything from 2022-present, who we can pretend is Harstem. Suppose that the head-to-head is heavily in favor of Harstem, who has a significantly positive head-to-head vs Fruitdealer and everybody else in the scene. Who would you call the GOAT here?
I agree that head-to-head record or overall ranking is not the sole criterion for the GoaT; in my view, it's just, almost by definition, the most important one. But surely other criteria are relevant, too. One such criterion, as you imply, is the duration of dominance; another one is the ratio between that figure to the overall time active in competitive play.
But this leads to the second thing: The hypothetical scenario is not faithful to reality anyway, because Serral's dominance has not occured over a tiny fraction of the game's lifetime; it has persisted for the most part of more than six years, which is almost half of the age of SCII. Furthermore, Serral has been more consistent in his results than any other player who has ever touched the game. So even the other two aforementioned criteria do not challenge Serral's status.
I think you're being silly about this. Serral was effectively not relevant for any of the MOST COMPETITIVE era of the game (2012 to 2016). He couldn't even have a head to head with Maru for years because he was never even competitive enough to face him until 2016, with their first match being 2018, despite being a player since at least 2012. You are forcefully ignoring the fact that Serral sucked for 4 years, only becoming top-tier in LotV. Maru on the other hand had been a relevant player for almost his entire career and almost the entire length of the game. The head to head actually doesn't matter when they hadn't even faced each other for 7 years of the game. After all, according to head-to-head, Welmu is better than Serral.
Serral is still amazing. I don't think anyone is going to argue against that. But it's ridiculous to say you only get graded for the time you were good at the game and not the years you were bad when we're talking about all time.
The first year Serral went fulltime pro, he literally crushed everyone and became World Champion. That's what is important. Comparing the numbers before that is really like saying "Lol, LeBron James did throw his first basket with 10 and couldn't beat any NBA player, what a loser"
Not true. Serral went fulltime in 2017, and did not manage to win any notable tournaments in that year.
It is not only a "cultural difference" - you simply couldn't go pro with 13 in Europe. Not possible, neither legally nor economically.
On February 05 2024 08:55 yubo56 wrote: SC2 has been out since 2010. Imagine that somebody wins every single tournament until 2022; we can pretend this is Fruitdealer. Then a second player comes onto the scene and wins everything from 2022-present, who we can pretend is Harstem. Suppose that the head-to-head is heavily in favor of Harstem, who has a significantly positive head-to-head vs Fruitdealer and everybody else in the scene. Who would you call the GOAT here?
I agree that head-to-head record or overall ranking is not the sole criterion for the GoaT; in my view, it's just, almost by definition, the most important one. But surely other criteria are relevant, too. One such criterion, as you imply, is the duration of dominance; another one is the ratio between that figure to the overall time active in competitive play.
But this leads to the second thing: The hypothetical scenario is not faithful to reality anyway, because Serral's dominance has not occured over a tiny fraction of the game's lifetime; it has persisted for the most part of more than six years, which is almost half of the age of SCII. Furthermore, Serral has been more consistent in his results than any other player who has ever touched the game. So even the other two aforementioned criteria do not challenge Serral's status.
I think you're being silly about this. Serral was effectively not relevant for any of the MOST COMPETITIVE era of the game (2012 to 2016). He couldn't even have a head to head with Maru for years because he was never even competitive enough to face him until 2016, with their first match being 2018, despite being a player since at least 2012. You are forcefully ignoring the fact that Serral sucked for 4 years, only becoming top-tier in LotV. Maru on the other hand had been a relevant player for almost his entire career and almost the entire length of the game. The head to head actually doesn't matter when they hadn't even faced each other for 7 years of the game. After all, according to head-to-head, Welmu is better than Serral.
Serral is still amazing. I don't think anyone is going to argue against that. But it's ridiculous to say you only get graded for the time you were good at the game and not the years you were bad when we're talking about all time.
The first year Serral went fulltime pro, he literally crushed everyone and became World Champion. That's what is important. Comparing the numbers before that is really like saying "Lol, LeBron James did throw his first basket with 10 and couldn't beat any NBA player, what a loser"
Not true. Serral went fulltime in 2017, and did not manage to win any notable tournaments in that year.
It is not only a "cultural difference" - you simply couldn't go pro with 13 in Europe. Not possible, neither legally nor economically.
This is related to my post.... how?
I think it was semi-relevant to both mine and yours, since I was discussing the cultural / legal differences that may have allowed Maru to play in GSL, but not allow Serral to compete. Though I do believe Maru was still going to school through 2012-13. Its relevancy to yours is simply that he wouldn't have been able to go fulltime before 2017. Clearly, both competed in tournaments during that time, but I think it's safe to say the environment in Korea made it more accessible for kids to play video games competitively.
Anyway, I don't really know how one balances whether someone played during an era, or their inability to due to X circumstances, or whatever. Since Serral still competed (including WCS), I'm assuming he was able to compete in everything, and the only thing that stopped him from winning WCS Finals in 2013 was his inability to perform. There obviously are valid reasons for why he wasn't able to perform at the Korean level then, like the fact that he was a kid in Europe without team houses and Korean esport culture. But no one gets evaluated on what one could've hypothetically done if the circumstances were different. One can only get evaluated on how they actually do.
I think the argument between Maru and Serral really comes down to how much one weights being good in the HotS era vs the LotV era. Maru has been close to the best in both, but Serral has been definitively the best for LotV alone.
On February 05 2024 08:55 yubo56 wrote: SC2 has been out since 2010. Imagine that somebody wins every single tournament until 2022; we can pretend this is Fruitdealer. Then a second player comes onto the scene and wins everything from 2022-present, who we can pretend is Harstem. Suppose that the head-to-head is heavily in favor of Harstem, who has a significantly positive head-to-head vs Fruitdealer and everybody else in the scene. Who would you call the GOAT here?
I agree that head-to-head record or overall ranking is not the sole criterion for the GoaT; in my view, it's just, almost by definition, the most important one. But surely other criteria are relevant, too. One such criterion, as you imply, is the duration of dominance; another one is the ratio between that figure to the overall time active in competitive play.
But this leads to the second thing: The hypothetical scenario is not faithful to reality anyway, because Serral's dominance has not occured over a tiny fraction of the game's lifetime; it has persisted for the most part of more than six years, which is almost half of the age of SCII. Furthermore, Serral has been more consistent in his results than any other player who has ever touched the game. So even the other two aforementioned criteria do not challenge Serral's status.
I think you're being silly about this. Serral was effectively not relevant for any of the MOST COMPETITIVE era of the game (2012 to 2016). He couldn't even have a head to head with Maru for years because he was never even competitive enough to face him until 2016, with their first match being 2018, despite being a player since at least 2012. You are forcefully ignoring the fact that Serral sucked for 4 years, only becoming top-tier in LotV. Maru on the other hand had been a relevant player for almost his entire career and almost the entire length of the game. The head to head actually doesn't matter when they hadn't even faced each other for 7 years of the game. After all, according to head-to-head, Welmu is better than Serral.
Serral is still amazing. I don't think anyone is going to argue against that. But it's ridiculous to say you only get graded for the time you were good at the game and not the years you were bad when we're talking about all time.
The first year Serral went fulltime pro, he literally crushed everyone and became World Champion. That's what is important. Comparing the numbers before that is really like saying "Lol, LeBron James did throw his first basket with 10 and couldn't beat any NBA player, what a loser"
Not true. Serral went fulltime in 2017, and did not manage to win any notable tournaments in that year.
It is not only a "cultural difference" - you simply couldn't go pro with 13 in Europe. Not possible, neither legally nor economically.
This is related to my post.... how?
I think it was semi-relevant to both mine and yours, since I was discussing the cultural / legal differences that may have allowed Maru to play in GSL, but not allow Serral to compete. Though I do believe Maru was still going to school through 2012-13. Its relevancy to yours is simply that he wouldn't have been able to go fulltime before 2017. Clearly, both competed in tournaments during that time, but I think it's safe to say the environment in Korea made it more accessible for kids to play video games competitively.
Anyway, I don't really know how one balances whether someone played during an era, or their inability to due to X circumstances, or whatever. Since Serral still competed (including WCS), I'm assuming he was able to compete in everything, and the only thing that stopped him from winning WCS Finals in 2013 was his inability to perform. There obviously are valid reasons for why he wasn't able to perform at the Korean level then, like the fact that he was a kid in Europe without team houses and Korean esport culture. But no one gets evaluated on what one could've hypothetically done if the circumstances were different. One can only get evaluated on how they actually do.
I think the argument between Maru and Serral really comes down to how much one weights being good in the HotS era vs the LotV era. Maru has been close to the best in both, but Serral has been definitively the best for LotV alone.
I believe 16 is the cutoff for WCS events ESL oversees, so Serral was gated to a certain degree.
IIRC Reynor got out of groups (can’t remember if Ro16 or Ro8 off hand) before he made his WCS Europe debut
But yeah that caveat aside 100% agree with your post. Hypotheticals can go in any kind of direction. Does Serral even want to go full time before he’s of age? Maybe he does a Creator and bursts through at like 15 only to subsequently not live up to that potential for quite some time. Or maybe he hits the ground running and starts winning a few tournaments a year before he did on the real timeline.
It’s pure speculation as to how his development goes really, mentality and being in a good place is so impactful on results after all, so couching arguments around it seems a fool’s errand to me.
On February 05 2024 08:55 yubo56 wrote: SC2 has been out since 2010. Imagine that somebody wins every single tournament until 2022; we can pretend this is Fruitdealer. Then a second player comes onto the scene and wins everything from 2022-present, who we can pretend is Harstem. Suppose that the head-to-head is heavily in favor of Harstem, who has a significantly positive head-to-head vs Fruitdealer and everybody else in the scene. Who would you call the GOAT here?
I agree that head-to-head record or overall ranking is not the sole criterion for the GoaT; in my view, it's just, almost by definition, the most important one. But surely other criteria are relevant, too. One such criterion, as you imply, is the duration of dominance; another one is the ratio between that figure to the overall time active in competitive play.
But this leads to the second thing: The hypothetical scenario is not faithful to reality anyway, because Serral's dominance has not occured over a tiny fraction of the game's lifetime; it has persisted for the most part of more than six years, which is almost half of the age of SCII. Furthermore, Serral has been more consistent in his results than any other player who has ever touched the game. So even the other two aforementioned criteria do not challenge Serral's status.
I think you're being silly about this. Serral was effectively not relevant for any of the MOST COMPETITIVE era of the game (2012 to 2016). He couldn't even have a head to head with Maru for years because he was never even competitive enough to face him until 2016, with their first match being 2018, despite being a player since at least 2012. You are forcefully ignoring the fact that Serral sucked for 4 years, only becoming top-tier in LotV. Maru on the other hand had been a relevant player for almost his entire career and almost the entire length of the game. The head to head actually doesn't matter when they hadn't even faced each other for 7 years of the game. After all, according to head-to-head, Welmu is better than Serral.
Serral is still amazing. I don't think anyone is going to argue against that. But it's ridiculous to say you only get graded for the time you were good at the game and not the years you were bad when we're talking about all time.
The first year Serral went fulltime pro, he literally crushed everyone and became World Champion. That's what is important. Comparing the numbers before that is really like saying "Lol, LeBron James did throw his first basket with 10 and couldn't beat any NBA player, what a loser"
Not true. Serral went fulltime in 2017, and did not manage to win any notable tournaments in that year.
It is not only a "cultural difference" - you simply couldn't go pro with 13 in Europe. Not possible, neither legally nor economically.
This is related to my post.... how?
I think it was semi-relevant to both mine and yours, since I was discussing the cultural / legal differences that may have allowed Maru to play in GSL, but not allow Serral to compete. Though I do believe Maru was still going to school through 2012-13. Its relevancy to yours is simply that he wouldn't have been able to go fulltime before 2017. Clearly, both competed in tournaments during that time, but I think it's safe to say the environment in Korea made it more accessible for kids to play video games competitively.
Anyway, I don't really know how one balances whether someone played during an era, or their inability to due to X circumstances, or whatever. Since Serral still competed (including WCS), I'm assuming he was able to compete in everything, and the only thing that stopped him from winning WCS Finals in 2013 was his inability to perform. There obviously are valid reasons for why he wasn't able to perform at the Korean level then, like the fact that he was a kid in Europe without team houses and Korean esport culture. But no one gets evaluated on what one could've hypothetically done if the circumstances were different. One can only get evaluated on how they actually do.
I think the argument between Maru and Serral really comes down to how much one weights being good in the HotS era vs the LotV era. Maru has been close to the best in both, but Serral has been definitively the best for LotV alone.
I was simply correcting your statement of "Serral immediately won everything after going fulltime". It took him like a year and a half to become the dominant powerhouse we know now aftre going fulltime.
On February 05 2024 08:55 yubo56 wrote: SC2 has been out since 2010. Imagine that somebody wins every single tournament until 2022; we can pretend this is Fruitdealer. Then a second player comes onto the scene and wins everything from 2022-present, who we can pretend is Harstem. Suppose that the head-to-head is heavily in favor of Harstem, who has a significantly positive head-to-head vs Fruitdealer and everybody else in the scene. Who would you call the GOAT here?
I agree that head-to-head record or overall ranking is not the sole criterion for the GoaT; in my view, it's just, almost by definition, the most important one. But surely other criteria are relevant, too. One such criterion, as you imply, is the duration of dominance; another one is the ratio between that figure to the overall time active in competitive play.
But this leads to the second thing: The hypothetical scenario is not faithful to reality anyway, because Serral's dominance has not occured over a tiny fraction of the game's lifetime; it has persisted for the most part of more than six years, which is almost half of the age of SCII. Furthermore, Serral has been more consistent in his results than any other player who has ever touched the game. So even the other two aforementioned criteria do not challenge Serral's status.
I think you're being silly about this. Serral was effectively not relevant for any of the MOST COMPETITIVE era of the game (2012 to 2016). He couldn't even have a head to head with Maru for years because he was never even competitive enough to face him until 2016, with their first match being 2018, despite being a player since at least 2012. You are forcefully ignoring the fact that Serral sucked for 4 years, only becoming top-tier in LotV. Maru on the other hand had been a relevant player for almost his entire career and almost the entire length of the game. The head to head actually doesn't matter when they hadn't even faced each other for 7 years of the game. After all, according to head-to-head, Welmu is better than Serral.
Serral is still amazing. I don't think anyone is going to argue against that. But it's ridiculous to say you only get graded for the time you were good at the game and not the years you were bad when we're talking about all time.
The first year Serral went fulltime pro, he literally crushed everyone and became World Champion. That's what is important. Comparing the numbers before that is really like saying "Lol, LeBron James did throw his first basket with 10 and couldn't beat any NBA player, what a loser"
Not true. Serral went fulltime in 2017, and did not manage to win any notable tournaments in that year.
It is not only a "cultural difference" - you simply couldn't go pro with 13 in Europe. Not possible, neither legally nor economically.
This is related to my post.... how?
It is relevant in terms of "I completly fucked up my post"...sorry! The point I wanted to make (and then managed to not make...) in regards to your post was that I assume Serral finished school in mid-2017, so I still think it is fair to say that 2018 was his first real year as a fulltime pro.
I think the argument between Maru and Serral really comes down to how much one weights being good in the HotS era vs the LotV era. Maru has been close to the best in both, but Serral has been definitively the best for LotV alone.
I would agree with that statement, but for me (and that is our difference in opinion to the core I guess) this isn't a good thing. What you are basically saying is that Maru was never No.1. Not once was he for a longer period of time regarded as THE best. And in my book, that is something you would need (together with a World Championship/"biggest title") to be the GOAT.
As I already said in another thread, using Serral's head to head record against Maru as proof he's the better player is imo very disingenous as Maru had already 7-8 years of his career behind him when Serral became relevant. After 8 years of fulltime-competition it's much more likely to burn out and become less motivated and Maru also had to deal with injuries etc, whereas Serral was able to spend all his peak years in the post-2017 era.
On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players. Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral has a winning head to head against like, literally everyone of note, bar some quirks from early in his career.
If Maru is demotivated and burnt out, it seems incongruous with him winning the majority of his titles in this era. And if we’re arguing that the competition level has dropped so Maru’s still doing that despite not being as motivated, well why’s Serral the cutoff?
He’s got a damn good record against most others, and is maintaining a positive win/loss in H2H against basically all of the relevant field of current top level players.
On February 05 2024 21:05 WombaT wrote: Serral has a winning head to head against like, literally everyone of note, bar some quirks from early in his career.
If Maru is demotivated and burnt out, it seems incongruous with him winning the majority of his titles in this era. And if we’re arguing that the competition level has dropped so Maru’s still doing that despite not being as motivated, well why’s Serral the cutoff?
He’s got a damn good record against most others, and is maintaining a positive win/loss in H2H against basically all of the relevant field of current top level players.
Well, it's just way easier to win titles in this era and all the other koreans are also effected by the decline as most koreans are active at least just as long as Maru. Personally I don't think he was worse in 2013-2015 compared to 2019-now (2018 was his peak), it was just way harder to win titles back then.
That's another argument (the biggest imo) against Serral being the Goat, that the majority of other Goat contenders are either retired or declined by now, and there's just not much competition left in this era
On February 05 2024 20:46 Charoisaur wrote: As I already said in another thread, using Serral's head to head record against Maru as proof he's the better player is imo very disingenous as Maru had already 7-8 years of his career behind him when Serral became relevant. After 8 years of fulltime-competition it's much more likely to burn out and become less motivated and Maru also had to deal with injuries etc, whereas Serral was able to spend all his peak years in the post-2017 era.
Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best.
That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2.
On February 05 2024 21:05 WombaT wrote: Serral has a winning head to head against like, literally everyone of note, bar some quirks from early in his career.
If Maru is demotivated and burnt out, it seems incongruous with him winning the majority of his titles in this era. And if we’re arguing that the competition level has dropped so Maru’s still doing that despite not being as motivated, well why’s Serral the cutoff?
He’s got a damn good record against most others, and is maintaining a positive win/loss in H2H against basically all of the relevant field of current top level players.
Well, it's just way easier to win titles in this era and all the other koreans are also effected by the decline as most koreans are active at least just as long as Maru. Personally I don't think he was worse in 2013-2015 compared to 2019-now (2018 was his peak), it was just way harder to win titles back then.
That's another argument (the biggest imo) against Serral being the Goat, that the majority of other Goat contenders are either retired or declined by now, and there's just not much competition left in this era
Surely if you’ve got to the top of a niche, not particularly transferable profession, that’s quite lucrative to you, and the level has dropped considerably, and said profession is contracting pretty visibly that’s motivation to cash in while you can? Or grabbing a WC to solidify a legacy.
I know that’s not the entirety of how motivation works, it is at least somewhat part of it though. The old Alexander wept for he realised there were no more worlds left to conquer and all that.
The same excuses were made for Maru when SC2 was absolutely at its competitive peak too. Oh he doesn’t like travel, oh he’s prioritising Proleague and Starleagues over weekenders, that’s why he doesn’t do much there.
It just feels very pick and choosy to me, always has.
He didn’t actually win a huge amount until he went on his quadruple, and partly why Inno used to place above him in such discussions, and which coincided with Serral going into monster mode himself.
So if Maru’s achievements in said span are elevating him into GOAT consideration, it seems odd to discount Serral’s having a winning H2H against him in the same period, or indeed against basically everyone
On February 05 2024 20:46 Charoisaur wrote: As I already said in another thread, using Serral's head to head record against Maru as proof he's the better player is imo very disingenous as Maru had already 7-8 years of his career behind him when Serral became relevant. After 8 years of fulltime-competition it's much more likely to burn out and become less motivated and Maru also had to deal with injuries etc, whereas Serral was able to spend all his peak years in the post-2017 era.
Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best.
That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2.
"Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation
On February 05 2024 20:46 Charoisaur wrote: As I already said in another thread, using Serral's head to head record against Maru as proof he's the better player is imo very disingenous as Maru had already 7-8 years of his career behind him when Serral became relevant. After 8 years of fulltime-competition it's much more likely to burn out and become less motivated and Maru also had to deal with injuries etc, whereas Serral was able to spend all his peak years in the post-2017 era.
Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best.
That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2.
Yeah imagine if Inno had stayed motivated. Thing is it’s just imagination as he clearly didn’t
On February 05 2024 20:46 Charoisaur wrote: As I already said in another thread, using Serral's head to head record against Maru as proof he's the better player is imo very disingenous as Maru had already 7-8 years of his career behind him when Serral became relevant. After 8 years of fulltime-competition it's much more likely to burn out and become less motivated and Maru also had to deal with injuries etc, whereas Serral was able to spend all his peak years in the post-2017 era.
Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best.
That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2.
"Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation
Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport.
Comparing someone in the twilight of his career vs someone in the peak of his career is just not fair. By the same logic I could say "Why wasn't Serral as good as Maru before 2018 - he's not the Goat".
Why are we choosing the timeframe post-2018 to compare Maru and Serral and not pre-2018. Because they didn't play. But if they had played the record would've favored Maru, which is the problem with comparing players which peaks didn't exactly align.
On February 05 2024 20:46 Charoisaur wrote: As I already said in another thread, using Serral's head to head record against Maru as proof he's the better player is imo very disingenous as Maru had already 7-8 years of his career behind him when Serral became relevant. After 8 years of fulltime-competition it's much more likely to burn out and become less motivated and Maru also had to deal with injuries etc, whereas Serral was able to spend all his peak years in the post-2017 era.
Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best.
That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2.
"Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation
Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport.
But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
On February 05 2024 20:46 Charoisaur wrote: As I already said in another thread, using Serral's head to head record against Maru as proof he's the better player is imo very disingenous as Maru had already 7-8 years of his career behind him when Serral became relevant. After 8 years of fulltime-competition it's much more likely to burn out and become less motivated and Maru also had to deal with injuries etc, whereas Serral was able to spend all his peak years in the post-2017 era.
Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best.
That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2.
"Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation
Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport.
But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
On February 05 2024 20:46 Charoisaur wrote: As I already said in another thread, using Serral's head to head record against Maru as proof he's the better player is imo very disingenous as Maru had already 7-8 years of his career behind him when Serral became relevant. After 8 years of fulltime-competition it's much more likely to burn out and become less motivated and Maru also had to deal with injuries etc, whereas Serral was able to spend all his peak years in the post-2017 era.
Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best.
That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2.
"Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation
Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport.
But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
To me, head-to-head is the LAST thing we should consider when everything else are close enough. Whatever the record is between Serral and Maru, they have never played enough in heavy-weight matches throughout their careers. Most of Serral win vs Maru are in non-premiere /group stage outside of IEM 2022 Ro8, and Maru beat him once in WESG semi-final. The rest are Serral-favored by a large margin, but that would not mean anything much IF Maru was to beat him in the coming IEM (huge IF) imo.
I am a fan of the NFL, and it effing annoy me when people say Mahomes can ever catch Brady as GOAT because he lost to him twice before Brady retired. So if Mahomes win 6-7 more SB he still have no chance because of the head-to-head? Thats just crazy talk and people are better than this.
The best year for Maru was 2018. Which was also Serral's best year. Serral won 2 tourneys in which Maru played that year, GSL vs the World and WCS World title. Maru won none in which Serral played that year. Briefly prior to that, Maru won WESG.
They have very similar achievement in their peak, although i see Serral having a bit of an edge, for having 2 premier against 1 of Maru (in that time span) in which both played.
Aaaand Serral is in Maru's nemesis list in Aligulac, which contemplates their all time encounters...
This H2H comparison makes sense for me cus theyre are almost indisputable number 1 and 2 GOAT, after analyzing their all time achievements against all other players.
On February 06 2024 02:03 Locutos wrote: The best year for Maru was 2018. Which was also Serral's best year. Serral won 2 tourneys in which Maru played that year, GSL vs the World and WCS World title. Maru won none in which Serral played that year. Briefly prior to that, Maru won WESG.
They have very similar achievement in their peak, although i see Serral having a bit of an edge, for having 2 premier against 1 of Maru (in that time span) in which both played.
Aaaand Serral is in Maru's nemesis list in Aligulac, which contemplates their all time encounters...
This H2H comparison makes sense for me cus theyre are almost indisputable number 1 and 2 GOAT, after analyzing their all time achievements against all other players.
Maru's best year may have been 2018 but it wasn't the only year where he did well. He already had 2 premier titles, a bunch of top 4s, and his proleague record prior. This is why h2h doesn't make sense to me, because we're just ignoring all the success he previously had, such success that may I add was why he was already known as the 4th race. It's not maru's fault serral wasn't competitive prior to 2018. Otherwise you're just creating a scenario where you're putting serral in his best light but not doing the same to maru
On February 06 2024 02:03 Locutos wrote: The best year for Maru was 2018. Which was also Serral's best year. Serral won 2 tourneys in which Maru played that year, GSL vs the World and WCS World title. Maru won none in which Serral played that year. Briefly prior to that, Maru won WESG.
They have very similar achievement in their peak, although i see Serral having a bit of an edge, for having 2 premier against 1 of Maru (in that time span) in which both played.
Aaaand Serral is in Maru's nemesis list in Aligulac, which contemplates their all time encounters...
This H2H comparison makes sense for me cus theyre are almost indisputable number 1 and 2 GOAT, after analyzing their all time achievements against all other players.
WESG did happen in 2018 but like most Serral fan you ignore that like it never happened. And like I said its also about win-loss in highest leverage moment. At this point, there is no point to bring up head-to-head when Maru is still one big title behind, thats how I feel.
I also think it's hard to say Maru is not in his "peak" years when last Katowice he literally said he was in the best shape of his life and would never lose.
And his 2023 was not really different then his 2018: utterly dominant in GSL, outside, well, not
On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote: On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players. Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4?
On February 05 2024 20:46 Charoisaur wrote: As I already said in another thread, using Serral's head to head record against Maru as proof he's the better player is imo very disingenous as Maru had already 7-8 years of his career behind him when Serral became relevant. After 8 years of fulltime-competition it's much more likely to burn out and become less motivated and Maru also had to deal with injuries etc, whereas Serral was able to spend all his peak years in the post-2017 era.
Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best.
That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2.
"Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation
Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport.
But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?
Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote: On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players. Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4?
On February 05 2024 20:46 Charoisaur wrote: As I already said in another thread, using Serral's head to head record against Maru as proof he's the better player is imo very disingenous as Maru had already 7-8 years of his career behind him when Serral became relevant. After 8 years of fulltime-competition it's much more likely to burn out and become less motivated and Maru also had to deal with injuries etc, whereas Serral was able to spend all his peak years in the post-2017 era.
Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best.
That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2.
"Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation
Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport.
But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?
Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
Not sure how that's related in any way to my point? My point is that Mbappe outperforming Messi during the time they both played at PSG doesn't mean he's the all time greater player
On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote: On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players. Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4?
On February 05 2024 20:46 Charoisaur wrote: As I already said in another thread, using Serral's head to head record against Maru as proof he's the better player is imo very disingenous as Maru had already 7-8 years of his career behind him when Serral became relevant. After 8 years of fulltime-competition it's much more likely to burn out and become less motivated and Maru also had to deal with injuries etc, whereas Serral was able to spend all his peak years in the post-2017 era.
Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best.
That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2.
"Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation
Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport.
But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?
Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
Winnings/2018 almost all zergs over performed 2018 wasn’t the worst offender, it was around the same as late 2017 & hydra buff in terms of Zerg being strong, 2019 was the worst, then it kinda maintained around 2017-2018 level the following years Maru was the only Terran getting any success in 2018 though, it’s quite clear looking at the winnings
On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote: On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players. Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4?
On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:31 Nakajin wrote:
On February 05 2024 20:46 Charoisaur wrote: As I already said in another thread, using Serral's head to head record against Maru as proof he's the better player is imo very disingenous as Maru had already 7-8 years of his career behind him when Serral became relevant. After 8 years of fulltime-competition it's much more likely to burn out and become less motivated and Maru also had to deal with injuries etc, whereas Serral was able to spend all his peak years in the post-2017 era.
Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best.
That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2.
"Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation
Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport.
But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?
Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
Winnings/2018 almost all zergs over performed 2018 wasn’t the worst offender, it was around the same as late 2017 & hydra buff in terms of Zerg being strong, 2019 was the worst, then it kinda maintained around 2017-2018 level the following years Maru was the only Terran getting any success in 2018 though, it’s quite clear looking at the winnings
Hasn't any one noticed that there has been a maximum of 3 (and often 2) really good zergs in Korea for over a decade now? It's been some combination of Dark/soO/Rogue/ByuL/Soulkey/Solar(?) since like 2013.
2017 was the rare yeas with three good zerg, but in 2018 soO drops off, Solar drops off and you end up with Dark and Rogue as the two good zergs that year.
I think balance matters less than ever. Terran has two legitimate champion contenders in Maru and Clem. Zerg has Dark, Solar, Serral, Reynor. Protoss has two military returnees who, other than that really nice herO stretch, look like military returnees. Balance has an effect, but I'm gonna go with the infinite time gsl winner and clem or a bunch of zergs with like 6 or 7 combined WC's over the two Protoss who look extremely rusty at times.
Maru and Serral's head to head is so misleading and such a small sample size. Everyone's saying it's based on 2018 forward but really their entire head to head is basically all in 21-23. As pointed out already they did not play at all in 2017 or earlier which would have favored Maru significantly. But even in 2018 they only played a grand total of 3 series one of which was on EU server with Maru in KR and one was a bo1 show match with no stakes. In 2019 they literally didn't play at all. In 2020 they only played 2 series one in Oct and one in Dec. Maru in that Dec was receiving shoulder treatment weekly and would end up skipping a tournament. Imo Serral was at least a little lucky that he didn't match with Maru more those 2.5 years or their current head to head would not look as it does right now. Serral's ZvT was not on the level of his ZvP and ZvZ in 2018 and 2019.
On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote: On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players. Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4?
On February 05 2024 20:46 Charoisaur wrote: As I already said in another thread, using Serral's head to head record against Maru as proof he's the better player is imo very disingenous as Maru had already 7-8 years of his career behind him when Serral became relevant. After 8 years of fulltime-competition it's much more likely to burn out and become less motivated and Maru also had to deal with injuries etc, whereas Serral was able to spend all his peak years in the post-2017 era.
Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best.
That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2.
"Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation
Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport.
But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?
Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
Yeah agreed. For me the H2H bolstering his claim for Serral isn’t his over Maru, it’s him having a winning record against basically everyone, including Maru.
Direct H2H doesn’t mean much, it’s how you do versus the overall field. Your styles might just match up badly, or it’s made lopsided by one player playing most of the ties at their peak when the other isn’t, etc. Maybe as a tiebreaker all other things being equal!
But yeah, I think personally Maru has a good GOAT claim between being one of the best in the real peak era, and then absolutely undisputed top 3 and winning a lot from 2018 thru now. It’s a potent combo.
It’s not really tenable if one is picking and choosing though. It’s Maru’s (and even more so, Rogue’s) achievements post 2018 that bump them past guys like Zest, or Innovation, which for me is perfectly fine. But you can’t completely gate Serral out on account for the era, but put those two above their Korean peers based upon them pulling away via achievements from said era.
On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote: On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players. Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4?
On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:31 Nakajin wrote:
On February 05 2024 20:46 Charoisaur wrote: As I already said in another thread, using Serral's head to head record against Maru as proof he's the better player is imo very disingenous as Maru had already 7-8 years of his career behind him when Serral became relevant. After 8 years of fulltime-competition it's much more likely to burn out and become less motivated and Maru also had to deal with injuries etc, whereas Serral was able to spend all his peak years in the post-2017 era.
Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best.
That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2.
"Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation
Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport.
But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?
Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
Yeah agreed. For me the H2H bolstering his claim for Serral isn’t his over Maru, it’s him having a winning record against basically everyone, including Maru.
Direct H2H doesn’t mean much, it’s how you do versus the overall field. Your styles might just match up badly, or it’s made lopsided by one player playing most of the ties at their peak when the other isn’t, etc. Maybe as a tiebreaker all other things being equal!
But yeah, I think personally Maru has a good GOAT claim between being one of the best in the real peak era, and then absolutely undisputed top 3 and winning a lot from 2018 thru now. It’s a potent combo.
It’s not really tenable if one is picking and choosing though. It’s Maru’s (and even more so, Rogue’s) achievements post 2018 that bump them past guys like Zest, or Innovation, which for me is perfectly fine. But you can’t completely gate Serral out on account for the era, but put those two above their Korean peers based upon them pulling away via achievements from said era.
While there is no direct correlation between having a lot of favorable head to head matches and your overall record against "the field", it's pretty obvious that the two are related in some way. Players like Maru, Rogue, Serral, Mvp, INnoVation, TY, Zest all have a lot of good head to head records and all ended up doing pretty well due to law of averages.
On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote: On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players. Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4?
On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:31 Nakajin wrote:
On February 05 2024 20:46 Charoisaur wrote: As I already said in another thread, using Serral's head to head record against Maru as proof he's the better player is imo very disingenous as Maru had already 7-8 years of his career behind him when Serral became relevant. After 8 years of fulltime-competition it's much more likely to burn out and become less motivated and Maru also had to deal with injuries etc, whereas Serral was able to spend all his peak years in the post-2017 era.
Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best.
That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2.
"Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation
Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport.
But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?
Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
Not sure how that's related in any way to my point? My point is that Mbappe outperforming Messi during the time they both played at PSG doesn't mean he's the all time greater player
My dude, in their mid-twenties most (E)Sports-athletes reach their prime, not fall off. And it is not like other players aren't playing this game for 12 years straight either. There is just not an excuse for a claimed GOAT to "lose motivation" at this stage and time...
On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote: On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players. Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4?
On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:31 Nakajin wrote:
On February 05 2024 20:46 Charoisaur wrote: As I already said in another thread, using Serral's head to head record against Maru as proof he's the better player is imo very disingenous as Maru had already 7-8 years of his career behind him when Serral became relevant. After 8 years of fulltime-competition it's much more likely to burn out and become less motivated and Maru also had to deal with injuries etc, whereas Serral was able to spend all his peak years in the post-2017 era.
Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best.
That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2.
"Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation
Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport.
But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?
Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
Winnings/2018 almost all zergs over performed 2018 wasn’t the worst offender, it was around the same as late 2017 & hydra buff in terms of Zerg being strong, 2019 was the worst, then it kinda maintained around 2017-2018 level the following years Maru was the only Terran getting any success in 2018 though, it’s quite clear looking at the winnings
If you look at the winnings by Top 10, I don't feel Zerg stands particularly out? Sure, by a larger margin Zerg earned the most (I mean...zerg also one two out of the biggest events). But by the 5th place Terran and Zerg are already equal again. Considering the persistent you have to point out how balance affected Serrals rise SO much, I would have expected something like "the 10th best Zerg wins as much as the 2nd best Terran". Not a maybe slightly misaligned, but overall completly normal spread ._.
On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote: On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players. Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4?
On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:31 Nakajin wrote:
On February 05 2024 20:46 Charoisaur wrote: As I already said in another thread, using Serral's head to head record against Maru as proof he's the better player is imo very disingenous as Maru had already 7-8 years of his career behind him when Serral became relevant. After 8 years of fulltime-competition it's much more likely to burn out and become less motivated and Maru also had to deal with injuries etc, whereas Serral was able to spend all his peak years in the post-2017 era.
Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best.
That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2.
"Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation
Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport.
But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?
Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
Not sure how that's related in any way to my point? My point is that Mbappe outperforming Messi during the time they both played at PSG doesn't mean he's the all time greater player
My dude, in their mid-twenties most (E)Sports-athletes reach their prime, not fall off. And it is not like other players aren't playing this game for 12 years straight either. There is just not an excuse for a claimed GOAT to "lose motivation" at this stage and time...
On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote: On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players. Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4?
On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:31 Nakajin wrote:
On February 05 2024 20:46 Charoisaur wrote: As I already said in another thread, using Serral's head to head record against Maru as proof he's the better player is imo very disingenous as Maru had already 7-8 years of his career behind him when Serral became relevant. After 8 years of fulltime-competition it's much more likely to burn out and become less motivated and Maru also had to deal with injuries etc, whereas Serral was able to spend all his peak years in the post-2017 era.
Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best.
That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2.
"Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation
Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport.
But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?
Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
Winnings/2018 almost all zergs over performed 2018 wasn’t the worst offender, it was around the same as late 2017 & hydra buff in terms of Zerg being strong, 2019 was the worst, then it kinda maintained around 2017-2018 level the following years Maru was the only Terran getting any success in 2018 though, it’s quite clear looking at the winnings
If you look at the winnings by Top 10, I don't feel Zerg stands particularly out? Sure, by a larger margin Zerg earned the most (I mean...zerg also one two out of the biggest events). But by the 5th place Terran and Zerg are already equal again. Considering the persistent you have to point out how balance affected Serrals rise SO much, I would have expected something like "the 10th best Zerg wins as much as the 2nd best Terran". Not a maybe slightly misaligned, but overall completly normal spread ._.
There hasn’t really been all that much fluctuation for years now between the non-S tier Terrans and Zerg. They both can make runs and win tournaments and there doesn’t seem much of a discernible pattern to it. And both (generally) lose to those said same S tier players.
If the balance was shifting appreciably in either direction you’d expect to see periods of a whole cohort all posting good results in the matchup at the same time. So say Rag, DRG, Solar all consistently beating their rough equivalents, say Byun, Gumiho and Bunny, and starting to trade well with a Maru. Or the reverse and the Terran cohort doing so with a Serral or a Dark.
I don’t think we’ve really seen that. We haven’t had perfect balance of course but it’s been pretty consistent where that cohort of players from either race generally trade pretty evenly with their equivalents,and badly against the top, top dogs. Some have hot streaks some have slumps, but rarely is it the whole group at once.
With the caveat that even a relatively broken meta doesn’t always elevate everyone due to play style. See DRG being ‘Mr LBM’ didn’t get much of a bump from the BL/Infestor era. Or a player may just suck at one matchup so much that they can’t make hay in tournaments from a favourable meta.
On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote: On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players. Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4?
On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:31 Nakajin wrote:
On February 05 2024 20:46 Charoisaur wrote: As I already said in another thread, using Serral's head to head record against Maru as proof he's the better player is imo very disingenous as Maru had already 7-8 years of his career behind him when Serral became relevant. After 8 years of fulltime-competition it's much more likely to burn out and become less motivated and Maru also had to deal with injuries etc, whereas Serral was able to spend all his peak years in the post-2017 era.
Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best.
That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2.
"Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation
Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport.
But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?
Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
Not sure how that's related in any way to my point? My point is that Mbappe outperforming Messi during the time they both played at PSG doesn't mean he's the all time greater player
My dude, in their mid-twenties most (E)Sports-athletes reach their prime, not fall off. And it is not like other players aren't playing this game for 12 years straight either. There is just not an excuse for a claimed GOAT to "lose motivation" at this stage and time...
On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote: On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players. Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4?
On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:31 Nakajin wrote:
On February 05 2024 20:46 Charoisaur wrote: As I already said in another thread, using Serral's head to head record against Maru as proof he's the better player is imo very disingenous as Maru had already 7-8 years of his career behind him when Serral became relevant. After 8 years of fulltime-competition it's much more likely to burn out and become less motivated and Maru also had to deal with injuries etc, whereas Serral was able to spend all his peak years in the post-2017 era.
Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best.
That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2.
"Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation
Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport.
But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?
Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
Winnings/2018 almost all zergs over performed 2018 wasn’t the worst offender, it was around the same as late 2017 & hydra buff in terms of Zerg being strong, 2019 was the worst, then it kinda maintained around 2017-2018 level the following years Maru was the only Terran getting any success in 2018 though, it’s quite clear looking at the winnings
If you look at the winnings by Top 10, I don't feel Zerg stands particularly out? Sure, by a larger margin Zerg earned the most (I mean...zerg also one two out of the biggest events). But by the 5th place Terran and Zerg are already equal again. Considering the persistent you have to point out how balance affected Serrals rise SO much, I would have expected something like "the 10th best Zerg wins as much as the 2nd best Terran". Not a maybe slightly misaligned, but overall completly normal spread ._.
Holding against Maru that he didn't stay 100% motivated for 14 years so we could see his best version vs Serral's best version is pretty disingenous I think considering Serral hasn't done that either/didn't need to do that due to his shorter career. Do you really think keeping your 100% drive & competitive spirit for 6 years is as hard as it is to do that for 14 years? If in 8 years Serral is still just as dominant as he is now, then you can hold it against Maru that he didn't keep his 100% motivation for 14 years - not now.
On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote: On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players. Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4?
On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:31 Nakajin wrote: [quote]
Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best.
That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2.
"Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation
Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport.
But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?
Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
Not sure how that's related in any way to my point? My point is that Mbappe outperforming Messi during the time they both played at PSG doesn't mean he's the all time greater player
My dude, in their mid-twenties most (E)Sports-athletes reach their prime, not fall off. And it is not like other players aren't playing this game for 12 years straight either. There is just not an excuse for a claimed GOAT to "lose motivation" at this stage and time...
On February 06 2024 04:24 Poopi wrote:
On February 06 2024 03:19 Balnazza wrote:
On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote: On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players. Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4?
On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:31 Nakajin wrote: [quote]
Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best.
That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2.
"Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation
Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport.
But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?
Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
Winnings/2018 almost all zergs over performed 2018 wasn’t the worst offender, it was around the same as late 2017 & hydra buff in terms of Zerg being strong, 2019 was the worst, then it kinda maintained around 2017-2018 level the following years Maru was the only Terran getting any success in 2018 though, it’s quite clear looking at the winnings
If you look at the winnings by Top 10, I don't feel Zerg stands particularly out? Sure, by a larger margin Zerg earned the most (I mean...zerg also one two out of the biggest events). But by the 5th place Terran and Zerg are already equal again. Considering the persistent you have to point out how balance affected Serrals rise SO much, I would have expected something like "the 10th best Zerg wins as much as the 2nd best Terran". Not a maybe slightly misaligned, but overall completly normal spread ._.
Holding against Maru that he didn't stay 100% motivated for 14 years so we could see his best version vs Serral's best version is pretty disingenous I think considering Serral hasn't done that either/didn't need to do that due to his shorter career. Do you really think keeping your 100% drive & competitive spirit for 6 years is as hard as it is to do that for 14 years? If in 8 years Serral is still just as dominant as he is now, then you can hold it against Maru that he didn't keep his 100% motivation for 14 years - not now.
But Maru has been winning a hell of a lot, and to just arbitrarily name it, the ‘Serral era’ is fast approaching a span of 6 years. Hell Serral’s remained at the very top for a singular span longer than most in this ranking.
Most pros we all accept have dips, peak for Championships, dip back down, come back up (or don’t), I think we’re all pretty understanding that being motivated 100% for such a period is unrealistic. About the only person I can think of who’s wired like that is Cristiano Ronaldo, and I genuinely don’t think it’s a good thing.
And while he was picked up pretty much out the gate, Maru wasn’t a full-time 100% progamer out of the blocks, there was a degree of learning his trade, in a game that wasn’t really fleshed out. And Serral had to get good enough grinding on ladder to break to the level where he could even think about going pro in a game with a very established top order. I don’t know what the grind was like for either, but assume Maru took a year or so to really properly get going, and Serral probably needed at least a couple of years it starts to look more like 13 years versus 8, granted I’m assuming a lot :p
Anyway Maru doesn’t have to remain motivated 24/7, he just has to peak for the big moments, I think that’s broadly the expectation at this point for GOAT bonuses. And some good chances to do just that ahead, should be some good StarCraft to come.
But he can’t simultaneously move above the likes of Inno in these lists via longevity, but also when compared directly to Serral it’s a motivation factor and it’s unfair to draw the comparison. It’s partly why I try not to weigh longevity too highly because it’s very luck-dependent.
Maru has more excuses made for him than anyone in SC2’s glorious history, and hell sometimes they’re right, as perhaps in this instance. But just think what a player he could have been without persistent jet lag, a crippling fear of leather, Rickett’s and being personally cursed by Dionysus after defeating him in a game of Backgammon:
On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote: On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players. Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4?
On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:31 Nakajin wrote: [quote]
Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best.
That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2.
"Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation
Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport.
But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?
Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
Not sure how that's related in any way to my point? My point is that Mbappe outperforming Messi during the time they both played at PSG doesn't mean he's the all time greater player
My dude, in their mid-twenties most (E)Sports-athletes reach their prime, not fall off. And it is not like other players aren't playing this game for 12 years straight either. There is just not an excuse for a claimed GOAT to "lose motivation" at this stage and time...
On February 06 2024 04:24 Poopi wrote:
On February 06 2024 03:19 Balnazza wrote:
On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote: On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players. Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4?
On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:31 Nakajin wrote: [quote]
Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best.
That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2.
"Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation
Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport.
But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?
Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
Winnings/2018 almost all zergs over performed 2018 wasn’t the worst offender, it was around the same as late 2017 & hydra buff in terms of Zerg being strong, 2019 was the worst, then it kinda maintained around 2017-2018 level the following years Maru was the only Terran getting any success in 2018 though, it’s quite clear looking at the winnings
If you look at the winnings by Top 10, I don't feel Zerg stands particularly out? Sure, by a larger margin Zerg earned the most (I mean...zerg also one two out of the biggest events). But by the 5th place Terran and Zerg are already equal again. Considering the persistent you have to point out how balance affected Serrals rise SO much, I would have expected something like "the 10th best Zerg wins as much as the 2nd best Terran". Not a maybe slightly misaligned, but overall completly normal spread ._.
Holding against Maru that he didn't stay 100% motivated for 14 years so we could see his best version vs Serral's best version is pretty disingenous I think considering Serral hasn't done that either/didn't need to do that due to his shorter career. Do you really think keeping your 100% drive & competitive spirit for 6 years is as hard as it is to do that for 14 years? If in 8 years Serral is still just as dominant as he is now, then you can hold it against Maru that he didn't keep his 100% motivation for 14 years - not now.
Of course it is hard and an achievement in itself to stay relevant for so long - but it is also easier to do that when you start so young, especially considering that Maru didn't have to deal with military service (yet). But it works in both ways: You can't hold it against Serral to have started out "late", especially when the reasons for it are mostly out of his hand anyway. These "What If"-scenarios can get out of hand pretty quickly, so I don't think that is in any shape or form helpful. You are basically replacing a non-helpful H2H with a theoretical H2H that doesn't work out either.
What my point against Maru here is, is that even in his prime he wasn't "the one". Maru ramped up his trophy-cabinet in the same time-span as Serral, but didn't do is as well as him. If Maru "in his prime" (which I will just take from you and others, I personally don't agree with the whole idea) had won 3-5 GSLs I could see your point, but as I said before: You are basically saying just "being relevant, but never the best" for a long period of time is enough to qualify as the GOAT for you. It is a bit like the soO-case: Of course it is impressive how consistent he reached those (GSL) finals, but wouldn't you say to be 'the best GSL player ever' you at one point have to win the thing, too? And not just be "up there" long enough?
On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote: On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players. Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4?
On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:33 Charoisaur wrote: [quote] "Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation
Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport.
But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?
Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
Not sure how that's related in any way to my point? My point is that Mbappe outperforming Messi during the time they both played at PSG doesn't mean he's the all time greater player
My dude, in their mid-twenties most (E)Sports-athletes reach their prime, not fall off. And it is not like other players aren't playing this game for 12 years straight either. There is just not an excuse for a claimed GOAT to "lose motivation" at this stage and time...
On February 06 2024 04:24 Poopi wrote:
On February 06 2024 03:19 Balnazza wrote:
On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote: On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players. Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4?
On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:33 Charoisaur wrote: [quote] "Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation
Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport.
But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?
Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
Winnings/2018 almost all zergs over performed 2018 wasn’t the worst offender, it was around the same as late 2017 & hydra buff in terms of Zerg being strong, 2019 was the worst, then it kinda maintained around 2017-2018 level the following years Maru was the only Terran getting any success in 2018 though, it’s quite clear looking at the winnings
If you look at the winnings by Top 10, I don't feel Zerg stands particularly out? Sure, by a larger margin Zerg earned the most (I mean...zerg also one two out of the biggest events). But by the 5th place Terran and Zerg are already equal again. Considering the persistent you have to point out how balance affected Serrals rise SO much, I would have expected something like "the 10th best Zerg wins as much as the 2nd best Terran". Not a maybe slightly misaligned, but overall completly normal spread ._.
Holding against Maru that he didn't stay 100% motivated for 14 years so we could see his best version vs Serral's best version is pretty disingenous I think considering Serral hasn't done that either/didn't need to do that due to his shorter career. Do you really think keeping your 100% drive & competitive spirit for 6 years is as hard as it is to do that for 14 years? If in 8 years Serral is still just as dominant as he is now, then you can hold it against Maru that he didn't keep his 100% motivation for 14 years - not now.
Of course it is hard and an achievement in itself to stay relevant for so long - but it is also easier to do that when you start so young, especially considering that Maru didn't have to deal with military service (yet). But it works in both ways: You can't hold it against Serral to have started out "late", especially when the reasons for it are mostly out of his hand anyway. These "What If"-scenarios can get out of hand pretty quickly, so I don't think that is in any shape or form helpful. You are basically replacing a non-helpful H2H with a theoretical H2H that doesn't work out either.
What my point against Maru here is, is that even in his prime he wasn't "the one". Maru ramped up his trophy-cabinet in the same time-span as Serral, but didn't do is as well as him. If Maru "in his prime" (which I will just take from you and others, I personally don't agree with the whole idea) had won 3-5 GSLs I could see your point, but as I said before: You are basically saying just "being relevant, but never the best" for a long period of time is enough to qualify as the GOAT for you. It is a bit like the soO-case: Of course it is impressive how consistent he reached those (GSL) finals, but wouldn't you say to be 'the best GSL player ever' you at one point have to win the thing, too? And not just be "up there" long enough?
Sure I agree with you (although I think his 2013-15 results are more impressive than you give him credit for, due to how stacked that era is). My argument is not that Maru is definitely the Goat over Serral (I'd give him the edge but it's basically a toss up imo). My main disagreement is using the h2h from Maru vs Serral for anything conclusive, imo it's just not particularly relevant. Serral got lucky that the majority of his matches against Maru were during the timeframe where he had the edge.
On February 06 2024 08:42 Charoisaur wrote: My main disagreement is using the h2h from Maru vs Serral for anything conclusive, imo it's just not particularly relevant.
Everyone in this thread agrees on this point. Nobody defends the asinine notion that the GoaT status should be determined by individual head-to-head records between the contenders. And yet, every other commentator attacks this straw man.
Some pages back, I wrote that I consider head-to-head essentially the most important criterion, so far as it is applied to the whole of the top-tier field. And of course, the tacit assumption was that what counts are high-stakes matches in major or premier tournaments considered over a sufficiently significant period of time, not weekly cups, nor random low-stakes matches, nor temporary peaks (some other straw men attacked by some). Here is what I wrote:
On February 05 2024 08:15 Antithesis wrote: Attempting to declare Maru the all-time GoaT, while simultaneously conceding that Serral is superior in terms of head-to-head record, not only to him, but also to the rest of all other top-tier players to me is a contradiction in terms.
Here is how WombaT put a similar view:
On February 06 2024 05:19 WombaT wrote: For me the H2H bolstering his claim for Serral isn’t his over Maru, it’s him having a winning record against basically everyone, including Maru.
Nobody is making the claim that Serral's individual record against Maru is of any particular relevance.
Furthermore, a good – and in the case of Serral, the best – overall head-to-head record against all other top-tier players, in major or permier tournaments, over an extended period of time, evidently equates to good results in terms of most other metrics discussed here, like tournament wins and consistency. Which, too, is reflected in Serral's factual results. Up to this point, nothing about this is really controversial.
Now, of course, it's perfectly fine to argue that achievements stretched over a longer period of time and across more formats, as accomplished by Maru, are more impressive than a higher and more consistent level of dominance over a shorter period of time. Personally, I do not agree with this, but it's a perfectly reasonable position.
But it's simply disingenuous to pretend that anyone is making the case for Serral on the grounds of his individual record against Maru.
On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote: On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players. Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4?
On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote: [quote] Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport.
But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?
Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
Not sure how that's related in any way to my point? My point is that Mbappe outperforming Messi during the time they both played at PSG doesn't mean he's the all time greater player
My dude, in their mid-twenties most (E)Sports-athletes reach their prime, not fall off. And it is not like other players aren't playing this game for 12 years straight either. There is just not an excuse for a claimed GOAT to "lose motivation" at this stage and time...
On February 06 2024 04:24 Poopi wrote:
On February 06 2024 03:19 Balnazza wrote:
On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote: On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players. Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4?
On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote: [quote] Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport.
But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?
Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
Winnings/2018 almost all zergs over performed 2018 wasn’t the worst offender, it was around the same as late 2017 & hydra buff in terms of Zerg being strong, 2019 was the worst, then it kinda maintained around 2017-2018 level the following years Maru was the only Terran getting any success in 2018 though, it’s quite clear looking at the winnings
If you look at the winnings by Top 10, I don't feel Zerg stands particularly out? Sure, by a larger margin Zerg earned the most (I mean...zerg also one two out of the biggest events). But by the 5th place Terran and Zerg are already equal again. Considering the persistent you have to point out how balance affected Serrals rise SO much, I would have expected something like "the 10th best Zerg wins as much as the 2nd best Terran". Not a maybe slightly misaligned, but overall completly normal spread ._.
Holding against Maru that he didn't stay 100% motivated for 14 years so we could see his best version vs Serral's best version is pretty disingenous I think considering Serral hasn't done that either/didn't need to do that due to his shorter career. Do you really think keeping your 100% drive & competitive spirit for 6 years is as hard as it is to do that for 14 years? If in 8 years Serral is still just as dominant as he is now, then you can hold it against Maru that he didn't keep his 100% motivation for 14 years - not now.
Of course it is hard and an achievement in itself to stay relevant for so long - but it is also easier to do that when you start so young, especially considering that Maru didn't have to deal with military service (yet). But it works in both ways: You can't hold it against Serral to have started out "late", especially when the reasons for it are mostly out of his hand anyway. These "What If"-scenarios can get out of hand pretty quickly, so I don't think that is in any shape or form helpful. You are basically replacing a non-helpful H2H with a theoretical H2H that doesn't work out either.
What my point against Maru here is, is that even in his prime he wasn't "the one". Maru ramped up his trophy-cabinet in the same time-span as Serral, but didn't do is as well as him. If Maru "in his prime" (which I will just take from you and others, I personally don't agree with the whole idea) had won 3-5 GSLs I could see your point, but as I said before: You are basically saying just "being relevant, but never the best" for a long period of time is enough to qualify as the GOAT for you. It is a bit like the soO-case: Of course it is impressive how consistent he reached those (GSL) finals, but wouldn't you say to be 'the best GSL player ever' you at one point have to win the thing, too? And not just be "up there" long enough?
Sure I agree with you (although I think his 2013-15 results are more impressive than you give him credit for, due to how stacked that era is). My argument is not that Maru is definitely the Goat over Serral (I'd give him the edge but it's basically a toss up imo). My main disagreement is using the h2h from Maru vs Serral for anything conclusive, imo it's just not particularly relevant. Serral got lucky that the majority of his matches against Maru were during the timeframe where he had the edge.
I’ll only concede the point if you also concede Maru was lucky to be placed to have a career spanning basically the entirety of pro SC2 :p
I dont think Balnazza is underrating his 2013-2015, least from my read. More that he was ‘one of the best’ rather than ‘the guy’. He was always hanging around as a top player, placing consistently and his subsequent Proleague record attests to that but say, an Inno or Zest were blowing him out of the water in terms of winning things consistently in HoTS, then subsequently early LoTV.
Well blowing out of the water is hyperbolic, but you get my point.
*Edit* it’s not even that hyperbolic. 2013, 2015 and then 2018 with WESG, which got him up to 3 Premiers. Quite a while, although there’s a lot of consistent top 4 finishes there. Then the rest of his 12 remaining titles all come from 2018 onwards.
Whereas someone like herO picked up 5 between 2013 thru 2015, including a Starleague himself. Inno has 4 from that same period, with 2 Starleagues. Etc
On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote: On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players. Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4?
On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote: [quote] But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?
Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
Not sure how that's related in any way to my point? My point is that Mbappe outperforming Messi during the time they both played at PSG doesn't mean he's the all time greater player
My dude, in their mid-twenties most (E)Sports-athletes reach their prime, not fall off. And it is not like other players aren't playing this game for 12 years straight either. There is just not an excuse for a claimed GOAT to "lose motivation" at this stage and time...
On February 06 2024 04:24 Poopi wrote:
On February 06 2024 03:19 Balnazza wrote:
On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote: On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players. Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4?
On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote: [quote] But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?
Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
Winnings/2018 almost all zergs over performed 2018 wasn’t the worst offender, it was around the same as late 2017 & hydra buff in terms of Zerg being strong, 2019 was the worst, then it kinda maintained around 2017-2018 level the following years Maru was the only Terran getting any success in 2018 though, it’s quite clear looking at the winnings
If you look at the winnings by Top 10, I don't feel Zerg stands particularly out? Sure, by a larger margin Zerg earned the most (I mean...zerg also one two out of the biggest events). But by the 5th place Terran and Zerg are already equal again. Considering the persistent you have to point out how balance affected Serrals rise SO much, I would have expected something like "the 10th best Zerg wins as much as the 2nd best Terran". Not a maybe slightly misaligned, but overall completly normal spread ._.
Holding against Maru that he didn't stay 100% motivated for 14 years so we could see his best version vs Serral's best version is pretty disingenous I think considering Serral hasn't done that either/didn't need to do that due to his shorter career. Do you really think keeping your 100% drive & competitive spirit for 6 years is as hard as it is to do that for 14 years? If in 8 years Serral is still just as dominant as he is now, then you can hold it against Maru that he didn't keep his 100% motivation for 14 years - not now.
Of course it is hard and an achievement in itself to stay relevant for so long - but it is also easier to do that when you start so young, especially considering that Maru didn't have to deal with military service (yet). But it works in both ways: You can't hold it against Serral to have started out "late", especially when the reasons for it are mostly out of his hand anyway. These "What If"-scenarios can get out of hand pretty quickly, so I don't think that is in any shape or form helpful. You are basically replacing a non-helpful H2H with a theoretical H2H that doesn't work out either.
What my point against Maru here is, is that even in his prime he wasn't "the one". Maru ramped up his trophy-cabinet in the same time-span as Serral, but didn't do is as well as him. If Maru "in his prime" (which I will just take from you and others, I personally don't agree with the whole idea) had won 3-5 GSLs I could see your point, but as I said before: You are basically saying just "being relevant, but never the best" for a long period of time is enough to qualify as the GOAT for you. It is a bit like the soO-case: Of course it is impressive how consistent he reached those (GSL) finals, but wouldn't you say to be 'the best GSL player ever' you at one point have to win the thing, too? And not just be "up there" long enough?
Sure I agree with you (although I think his 2013-15 results are more impressive than you give him credit for, due to how stacked that era is). My argument is not that Maru is definitely the Goat over Serral (I'd give him the edge but it's basically a toss up imo). My main disagreement is using the h2h from Maru vs Serral for anything conclusive, imo it's just not particularly relevant. Serral got lucky that the majority of his matches against Maru were during the timeframe where he had the edge.
I’ll only concede the point if you also concede Maru was lucky to be placed to have a career spanning basically the entirety of pro SC2 :p
Ofc that's also true
I dont think Balnazza is underrating his 2013-2015, least from my read. More that he was ‘one of the best’ rather than ‘the guy’. He was always hanging around as a top player, placing consistently and his subsequent Proleague record attests to that but say, an Inno or Zest were blowing him out of the water in terms of winning things consistently in HoTS, then subsequently early LoTV.
Well blowing out of the water is hyperbolic, but you get my point.
*Edit* it’s not even that hyperbolic. 2013, 2015 and then 2018 with WESG, which got him up to 3 Premiers. Quite a while, although there’s a lot of consistent top 4 finishes there. Then the rest of his 12 remaining titles all come from 2018 onwards.
Whereas someone like herO picked up 5 between 2013 thru 2015, including a Starleague himself. Inno has 4 from that same period, with 2 Starleagues. Etc
Yeah I never said he was the best during that era. I just think being one of the best and achieving what he did during that era is extremely impressive. Back then if you had a bad day in the ro32 you got eliminated right then and there, whereas nowadays if you have a bad day you still probably make it into the ro8 and then just need to win three more series to win the trophy.
It's hard to say exactly how much more a trophy from that era should count compared to one in todays era, but it definitely should count a lot more. Players like Rogue, Stats and TY played throughout that era without winning a single tournament! That's my problem with Balnazza saying he "only" won 2 Starleagues during that era, as if it was a negative point
On February 06 2024 08:42 Charoisaur wrote: My main disagreement is using the h2h from Maru vs Serral for anything conclusive, imo it's just not particularly relevant.
Everyone in this thread agrees on this point. Nobody defends the asinine notion that the GoaT status should be determined by individual head-to-head records between the contenders. And yet, every other commentator attacks this straw man.
Some pages back, I wrote that I consider head-to-head essentially the most important criterion, so far as it is applied to the whole of the top-tier field. And of course, the tacit assumption was that what counts are high-stakes matches in major or premier tournaments considered over a sufficiently significant period of time, not weekly cups, nor random low-stakes matches, nor temporary peaks (some other straw men attacked by some). Here is what I wrote:
On February 05 2024 08:15 Antithesis wrote: Attempting to declare Maru the all-time GoaT, while simultaneously conceding that Serral is superior in terms of head-to-head record, not only to him, but also to the rest of all other top-tier players to me is a contradiction in terms.
On February 06 2024 05:19 WombaT wrote: For me the H2H bolstering his claim for Serral isn’t his over Maru, it’s him having a winning record against basically everyone, including Maru.
Nobody is making the claim that Serral's individual record against Maru is of any particular relevance.
Furthermore, a good – and in the case of Serral, the best – overall head-to-head record against all other top-tier players, in major or permier tournaments, over an extended period of time, evidently equates to good results in terms of most other metrics discussed here, like tournament wins and consistency. Which, too, is reflected in Serral's factual results. Up to this point, nothing about this is really controversial.
Now, of course, it's perfectly fine to argue that achievements stretched over a longer period of time and across more formats, as accomplished by Maru, are more impressive than a higher and more consistent level of dominance over a shorter period of time. Personally, I do not agree with this, but it's a perfectly reasonable position.
But it's simply disingenuous to pretend that anyone is making the case for Serral on the grounds of his individual record against Maru.
The whole point about about individual record and/or head-to-head is that you only need to lose once and its over. And not all the matches/tournaments are created equally in term of legacy/GOAT consideration. Serral will look very impressive in the course of the year and winning 2-3 tournaments, but he might just have a bad day in ZvZ or facing Clem, ect. and he would be out of the biggest tournament in the year. Does that enhance his GOAT case over someone like Rogue, who lost out earlier in lots of tournament, but show up and win on the biggest stage? Serral would beat Zest/Ragnarok/Solar 90% of the time they meet, but he got eliminated by them in the biggest tournament of the year, so does that help or hurt his legacy?
On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote: On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players. Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4?
On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:31 Nakajin wrote:
On February 05 2024 20:46 Charoisaur wrote: As I already said in another thread, using Serral's head to head record against Maru as proof he's the better player is imo very disingenous as Maru had already 7-8 years of his career behind him when Serral became relevant. After 8 years of fulltime-competition it's much more likely to burn out and become less motivated and Maru also had to deal with injuries etc, whereas Serral was able to spend all his peak years in the post-2017 era.
Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best.
That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2.
"Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation
Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport.
But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?
Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
Winnings/2018 almost all zergs over performed 2018 wasn’t the worst offender, it was around the same as late 2017 & hydra buff in terms of Zerg being strong, 2019 was the worst, then it kinda maintained around 2017-2018 level the following years Maru was the only Terran getting any success in 2018 though, it’s quite clear looking at the winnings
Hasn't any one noticed that there has been a maximum of 3 (and often 2) really good zergs in Korea for over a decade now? It's been some combination of Dark/soO/Rogue/ByuL/Soulkey/Solar(?) since like 2013.
2017 was the rare yeas with three good zerg, but in 2018 soO drops off, Solar drops off and you end up with Dark and Rogue as the two good zergs that year.
I think balance matters less than ever. Terran has two legitimate champion contenders in Maru and Clem. Zerg has Dark, Solar, Serral, Reynor. Protoss has two military returnees who, other than that really nice herO stretch, look like military returnees. Balance has an effect, but I'm gonna go with the infinite time gsl winner and clem or a bunch of zergs with like 6 or 7 combined WC's over the two Protoss who look extremely rusty at times.
I know we don't talk about that one player, but there was that one zerg player who was really good for 2012-2015.......
On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote: On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players. Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4?
On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:31 Nakajin wrote: [quote]
Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best.
That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2.
"Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation
Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport.
But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?
Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
Winnings/2018 almost all zergs over performed 2018 wasn’t the worst offender, it was around the same as late 2017 & hydra buff in terms of Zerg being strong, 2019 was the worst, then it kinda maintained around 2017-2018 level the following years Maru was the only Terran getting any success in 2018 though, it’s quite clear looking at the winnings
Hasn't any one noticed that there has been a maximum of 3 (and often 2) really good zergs in Korea for over a decade now? It's been some combination of Dark/soO/Rogue/ByuL/Soulkey/Solar(?) since like 2013.
2017 was the rare yeas with three good zerg, but in 2018 soO drops off, Solar drops off and you end up with Dark and Rogue as the two good zergs that year.
I think balance matters less than ever. Terran has two legitimate champion contenders in Maru and Clem. Zerg has Dark, Solar, Serral, Reynor. Protoss has two military returnees who, other than that really nice herO stretch, look like military returnees. Balance has an effect, but I'm gonna go with the infinite time gsl winner and clem or a bunch of zergs with like 6 or 7 combined WC's over the two Protoss who look extremely rusty at times.
I know we don't talk about that one player, but there was that one zerg player who was really good for 2012-2015.......
Man it’s been so long I forgot that Taeja played Zerg
On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote: On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players. Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4?
On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:33 Charoisaur wrote: [quote] "Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation
Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport.
But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?
Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
Winnings/2018 almost all zergs over performed 2018 wasn’t the worst offender, it was around the same as late 2017 & hydra buff in terms of Zerg being strong, 2019 was the worst, then it kinda maintained around 2017-2018 level the following years Maru was the only Terran getting any success in 2018 though, it’s quite clear looking at the winnings
Hasn't any one noticed that there has been a maximum of 3 (and often 2) really good zergs in Korea for over a decade now? It's been some combination of Dark/soO/Rogue/ByuL/Soulkey/Solar(?) since like 2013.
2017 was the rare yeas with three good zerg, but in 2018 soO drops off, Solar drops off and you end up with Dark and Rogue as the two good zergs that year.
I think balance matters less than ever. Terran has two legitimate champion contenders in Maru and Clem. Zerg has Dark, Solar, Serral, Reynor. Protoss has two military returnees who, other than that really nice herO stretch, look like military returnees. Balance has an effect, but I'm gonna go with the infinite time gsl winner and clem or a bunch of zergs with like 6 or 7 combined WC's over the two Protoss who look extremely rusty at times.
I know we don't talk about that one player, but there was that one zerg player who was really good for 2012-2015.......
Man it’s been so long I forgot that Taeja played Zerg
On January 28 2024 19:08 SharkStarcraft wrote: I feel like leaving out Dark completely out of the top 10 ist not happening at this point, same for inno, and the other spots are locked for obvious reasons. but seriously - how can rain then make the top 10 and mvp doesn't?? they both had comparatively short peaks but MVPs resume and legacy is so much more impressive... also wasn't there a list similar to this like 10 years ago that also had rain at #10 and mvp at #1?? and now the latter is not present at all? hmmmmm maybe we're all in for a surprise after all hehe
great writeup once again! love reading these and following the discussions about who should be where and so on.
Because this list is more: "the greatest HotS players list", or "proleague players who also had a few other noteworthy achievements list". But since these titles don't get the hype, it's not called that.
In no world is: MVP>Rain>MC, so the list is a bit nonsense and Serral will not be no. 1, because he wasn't part of proleague, so in a way he's not in the competition, he'll just on the list so that it doesn't get discredited.
You say that only half way through the list. Serral, INno, Maru, TY, Rogue, and Dark (if he's there) all had their best results in LotV, and even Zest was 50/50.
Over half the list is going to end up with LotV players.
Also, Proleague was the lifeblood of korean sc2 competition for years, of course most of the top 10 would have played in it. Other than Serral, how many players with top 10 resumes didn't play in proleague? And Mvp>Rain>MC is completely correct, I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise to be honest.
I was being facetious. My point is that HotS and proleague is skewed too heavily. So even though Maru's achievements prior to LotV wasn't very impressive, because of this skew, his HotS achievements will somehow get blown up to signify that that makes him better than Serral, or whatever.
If you value WoL and thereby put MVP>Rain, then MC would also need to be above Rain, because MC is not that far behind MVP as the WoL GOAT. If you value WoL and LotV, then Classic, PartinG, herO, Trap, MC and Stats are all Protoss that should be knocking on Rain's door. And you can even argue Neeb.. And yes I agree that TaeJa sits with MC in ranking, possibly higher if you value wins 2x>losing in the finals.
On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote: On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players. Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4?
On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote: [quote] Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport.
But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?
Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
Winnings/2018 almost all zergs over performed 2018 wasn’t the worst offender, it was around the same as late 2017 & hydra buff in terms of Zerg being strong, 2019 was the worst, then it kinda maintained around 2017-2018 level the following years Maru was the only Terran getting any success in 2018 though, it’s quite clear looking at the winnings
Hasn't any one noticed that there has been a maximum of 3 (and often 2) really good zergs in Korea for over a decade now? It's been some combination of Dark/soO/Rogue/ByuL/Soulkey/Solar(?) since like 2013.
2017 was the rare yeas with three good zerg, but in 2018 soO drops off, Solar drops off and you end up with Dark and Rogue as the two good zergs that year.
I think balance matters less than ever. Terran has two legitimate champion contenders in Maru and Clem. Zerg has Dark, Solar, Serral, Reynor. Protoss has two military returnees who, other than that really nice herO stretch, look like military returnees. Balance has an effect, but I'm gonna go with the infinite time gsl winner and clem or a bunch of zergs with like 6 or 7 combined WC's over the two Protoss who look extremely rusty at times.
I know we don't talk about that one player, but there was that one zerg player who was really good for 2012-2015.......
Man it’s been so long I forgot that Taeja played Zerg
He said good
Booooo. I don’t think he has a claim for top 10, but he’s probably a lock for somewhere in the top 20 which isn’t bad!
On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote: On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players. Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4?
On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:31 Nakajin wrote: [quote]
Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best.
That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2.
"Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation
Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport.
But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?
Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
Not sure how that's related in any way to my point? My point is that Mbappe outperforming Messi during the time they both played at PSG doesn't mean he's the all time greater player
My dude, in their mid-twenties most (E)Sports-athletes reach their prime, not fall off. And it is not like other players aren't playing this game for 12 years straight either. There is just not an excuse for a claimed GOAT to "lose motivation" at this stage and time...
On February 06 2024 04:24 Poopi wrote:
On February 06 2024 03:19 Balnazza wrote:
On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote: On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players. Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4?
On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:31 Nakajin wrote: [quote]
Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best.
That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2.
"Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation
Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport.
But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?
Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
Winnings/2018 almost all zergs over performed 2018 wasn’t the worst offender, it was around the same as late 2017 & hydra buff in terms of Zerg being strong, 2019 was the worst, then it kinda maintained around 2017-2018 level the following years Maru was the only Terran getting any success in 2018 though, it’s quite clear looking at the winnings
If you look at the winnings by Top 10, I don't feel Zerg stands particularly out? Sure, by a larger margin Zerg earned the most (I mean...zerg also one two out of the biggest events). But by the 5th place Terran and Zerg are already equal again. Considering the persistent you have to point out how balance affected Serrals rise SO much, I would have expected something like "the 10th best Zerg wins as much as the 2nd best Terran". Not a maybe slightly misaligned, but overall completly normal spread ._.
Holding against Maru that he didn't stay 100% motivated for 14 years so we could see his best version vs Serral's best version is pretty disingenous I think considering Serral hasn't done that either/didn't need to do that due to his shorter career. Do you really think keeping your 100% drive & competitive spirit for 6 years is as hard as it is to do that for 14 years? If in 8 years Serral is still just as dominant as he is now, then you can hold it against Maru that he didn't keep his 100% motivation for 14 years - not now.
Maru and Serral have almsot the same age. Maru won 2 premiers prior to Serral's rise. Which in the overall view isnt much (not at the #1 GOAT dispute, at least). People are trying to balance Maru's earlier wins as if they had been "best of the world" level achievement, which they were not.
I do think that those early achievements by Maru do count for GOAT dispute, but with the weight they had at that time. How many premier were disputed at the time a year?
If you look at Maru's results page, you wont see a lot of golden squares before 2018; In the stretch of 2013-2014, there quite a few top 4's, and also in 2017, which is when Maru's golden age starts and hits its peak in 2018.
Its hard to weight Maru's accomplishments vs Serral's. Maru's top tier longevity is indeed something very admirable. Just like Serral's dominance from 2018 on (It's been 6 years beeing the best SCII player! - with a hot Maru onboard). In premier tourneys both Maru and Serral participated together from WESG 2017 forward (which Maru won), Serral doubled top 4 finish counts of Maru.
Its a hard balance to execute. But i go with Serral. Never seen anyone playing so solidly for so long in almost every premier tournament.
On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote: On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players. Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4?
On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote: [quote] But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?
Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
Winnings/2018 almost all zergs over performed 2018 wasn’t the worst offender, it was around the same as late 2017 & hydra buff in terms of Zerg being strong, 2019 was the worst, then it kinda maintained around 2017-2018 level the following years Maru was the only Terran getting any success in 2018 though, it’s quite clear looking at the winnings
Hasn't any one noticed that there has been a maximum of 3 (and often 2) really good zergs in Korea for over a decade now? It's been some combination of Dark/soO/Rogue/ByuL/Soulkey/Solar(?) since like 2013.
2017 was the rare yeas with three good zerg, but in 2018 soO drops off, Solar drops off and you end up with Dark and Rogue as the two good zergs that year.
I think balance matters less than ever. Terran has two legitimate champion contenders in Maru and Clem. Zerg has Dark, Solar, Serral, Reynor. Protoss has two military returnees who, other than that really nice herO stretch, look like military returnees. Balance has an effect, but I'm gonna go with the infinite time gsl winner and clem or a bunch of zergs with like 6 or 7 combined WC's over the two Protoss who look extremely rusty at times.
I know we don't talk about that one player, but there was that one zerg player who was really good for 2012-2015.......
Man it’s been so long I forgot that Taeja played Zerg
He said good
Booooo. I don’t think he has a claim for top 10, but he’s probably a lock for somewhere in the top 20 which isn’t bad!
On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote: On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players. Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4?
On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:33 Charoisaur wrote: [quote] "Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation
Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport.
But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?
Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
Not sure how that's related in any way to my point? My point is that Mbappe outperforming Messi during the time they both played at PSG doesn't mean he's the all time greater player
My dude, in their mid-twenties most (E)Sports-athletes reach their prime, not fall off. And it is not like other players aren't playing this game for 12 years straight either. There is just not an excuse for a claimed GOAT to "lose motivation" at this stage and time...
On February 06 2024 04:24 Poopi wrote:
On February 06 2024 03:19 Balnazza wrote:
On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote: On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players. Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4?
On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:33 Charoisaur wrote: [quote] "Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation
Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport.
But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?
Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
Winnings/2018 almost all zergs over performed 2018 wasn’t the worst offender, it was around the same as late 2017 & hydra buff in terms of Zerg being strong, 2019 was the worst, then it kinda maintained around 2017-2018 level the following years Maru was the only Terran getting any success in 2018 though, it’s quite clear looking at the winnings
If you look at the winnings by Top 10, I don't feel Zerg stands particularly out? Sure, by a larger margin Zerg earned the most (I mean...zerg also one two out of the biggest events). But by the 5th place Terran and Zerg are already equal again. Considering the persistent you have to point out how balance affected Serrals rise SO much, I would have expected something like "the 10th best Zerg wins as much as the 2nd best Terran". Not a maybe slightly misaligned, but overall completly normal spread ._.
Holding against Maru that he didn't stay 100% motivated for 14 years so we could see his best version vs Serral's best version is pretty disingenous I think considering Serral hasn't done that either/didn't need to do that due to his shorter career. Do you really think keeping your 100% drive & competitive spirit for 6 years is as hard as it is to do that for 14 years? If in 8 years Serral is still just as dominant as he is now, then you can hold it against Maru that he didn't keep his 100% motivation for 14 years - not now.
Maru and Serral have almsot the same age. Maru won 2 premiers prior to Serral's rise. Which in the overall view isnt much (not at the #1 GOAT dispute, at least). People are trying to balance Maru's earlier wins as if they had been "best of the world" level achievement, which they were not.
I do think that those early achievements by Maru do count for GOAT dispute, but with the weight they had at that time. How many premier were disputed at the time a year?
If you look at Maru's results page, you wont see a lot of golden squares before 2018; In the stretch of 2013-2014, there quite a few top 4's, and also in 2017, which is when Maru's golden age starts and hits its peak in 2018.
Its hard to weight Maru's accomplishments vs Serral's. Maru's top tier longevity is indeed something very admirable. Just like Serral's dominance from 2018 on (It's been 6 years beeing the best SCII player! - with a hot Maru onboard). In premier tourneys both Maru and Serral participated together from WESG 2017 forward (which Maru won), Serral doubled top 4 finish counts of Maru.
Its a hard balance to execute. But i go with Serral. Never seen anyone playing so solidly for so long in almost every premier tournament.
Serral hasn't been the top player since 2018 straight and I really wish people would either back it up or stop making that argument. Serral wasn't the best zerg in 2019, 2020, or 2021 (the best zerg player in those years were either reynor, dark, or rogue)
On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote: On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players. Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4?
On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote: [quote] Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport.
But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?
Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
Not sure how that's related in any way to my point? My point is that Mbappe outperforming Messi during the time they both played at PSG doesn't mean he's the all time greater player
My dude, in their mid-twenties most (E)Sports-athletes reach their prime, not fall off. And it is not like other players aren't playing this game for 12 years straight either. There is just not an excuse for a claimed GOAT to "lose motivation" at this stage and time...
On February 06 2024 04:24 Poopi wrote:
On February 06 2024 03:19 Balnazza wrote:
On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote: On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players. Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4?
On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote: [quote] Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport.
But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?
Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
Winnings/2018 almost all zergs over performed 2018 wasn’t the worst offender, it was around the same as late 2017 & hydra buff in terms of Zerg being strong, 2019 was the worst, then it kinda maintained around 2017-2018 level the following years Maru was the only Terran getting any success in 2018 though, it’s quite clear looking at the winnings
If you look at the winnings by Top 10, I don't feel Zerg stands particularly out? Sure, by a larger margin Zerg earned the most (I mean...zerg also one two out of the biggest events). But by the 5th place Terran and Zerg are already equal again. Considering the persistent you have to point out how balance affected Serrals rise SO much, I would have expected something like "the 10th best Zerg wins as much as the 2nd best Terran". Not a maybe slightly misaligned, but overall completly normal spread ._.
Holding against Maru that he didn't stay 100% motivated for 14 years so we could see his best version vs Serral's best version is pretty disingenous I think considering Serral hasn't done that either/didn't need to do that due to his shorter career. Do you really think keeping your 100% drive & competitive spirit for 6 years is as hard as it is to do that for 14 years? If in 8 years Serral is still just as dominant as he is now, then you can hold it against Maru that he didn't keep his 100% motivation for 14 years - not now.
Maru and Serral have almsot the same age. Maru won 2 premiers prior to Serral's rise. Which in the overall view isnt much (not at the #1 GOAT dispute, at least). People are trying to balance Maru's earlier wins as if they had been "best of the world" level achievement, which they were not.
I do think that those early achievements by Maru do count for GOAT dispute, but with the weight they had at that time. How many premier were disputed at the time a year?
If you look at Maru's results page, you wont see a lot of golden squares before 2018; In the stretch of 2013-2014, there quite a few top 4's, and also in 2017, which is when Maru's golden age starts and hits its peak in 2018.
Its hard to weight Maru's accomplishments vs Serral's. Maru's top tier longevity is indeed something very admirable. Just like Serral's dominance from 2018 on (It's been 6 years beeing the best SCII player! - with a hot Maru onboard). In premier tourneys both Maru and Serral participated together from WESG 2017 forward (which Maru won), Serral doubled top 4 finish counts of Maru.
Its a hard balance to execute. But i go with Serral. Never seen anyone playing so solidly for so long in almost every premier tournament.
Serral hasn't been the top player since 2018 straight and I really wish people would either back it up or stop making that argument. Serral wasn't the best zerg in 2019, 2020, or 2021 (the best zerg player in those years were either reynor, dark, or rogue)
Serral was a huge favorite these years, but didn't manage to win / live up to the insane expectations ; which is also the case for Maru.
On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote: On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players. Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4?
On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote: [quote] Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?
Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
Not sure how that's related in any way to my point? My point is that Mbappe outperforming Messi during the time they both played at PSG doesn't mean he's the all time greater player
My dude, in their mid-twenties most (E)Sports-athletes reach their prime, not fall off. And it is not like other players aren't playing this game for 12 years straight either. There is just not an excuse for a claimed GOAT to "lose motivation" at this stage and time...
On February 06 2024 04:24 Poopi wrote:
On February 06 2024 03:19 Balnazza wrote:
On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote: On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players. Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4?
On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote: [quote] Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?
Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
Winnings/2018 almost all zergs over performed 2018 wasn’t the worst offender, it was around the same as late 2017 & hydra buff in terms of Zerg being strong, 2019 was the worst, then it kinda maintained around 2017-2018 level the following years Maru was the only Terran getting any success in 2018 though, it’s quite clear looking at the winnings
If you look at the winnings by Top 10, I don't feel Zerg stands particularly out? Sure, by a larger margin Zerg earned the most (I mean...zerg also one two out of the biggest events). But by the 5th place Terran and Zerg are already equal again. Considering the persistent you have to point out how balance affected Serrals rise SO much, I would have expected something like "the 10th best Zerg wins as much as the 2nd best Terran". Not a maybe slightly misaligned, but overall completly normal spread ._.
Holding against Maru that he didn't stay 100% motivated for 14 years so we could see his best version vs Serral's best version is pretty disingenous I think considering Serral hasn't done that either/didn't need to do that due to his shorter career. Do you really think keeping your 100% drive & competitive spirit for 6 years is as hard as it is to do that for 14 years? If in 8 years Serral is still just as dominant as he is now, then you can hold it against Maru that he didn't keep his 100% motivation for 14 years - not now.
Of course it is hard and an achievement in itself to stay relevant for so long - but it is also easier to do that when you start so young, especially considering that Maru didn't have to deal with military service (yet). But it works in both ways: You can't hold it against Serral to have started out "late", especially when the reasons for it are mostly out of his hand anyway. These "What If"-scenarios can get out of hand pretty quickly, so I don't think that is in any shape or form helpful. You are basically replacing a non-helpful H2H with a theoretical H2H that doesn't work out either.
What my point against Maru here is, is that even in his prime he wasn't "the one". Maru ramped up his trophy-cabinet in the same time-span as Serral, but didn't do is as well as him. If Maru "in his prime" (which I will just take from you and others, I personally don't agree with the whole idea) had won 3-5 GSLs I could see your point, but as I said before: You are basically saying just "being relevant, but never the best" for a long period of time is enough to qualify as the GOAT for you. It is a bit like the soO-case: Of course it is impressive how consistent he reached those (GSL) finals, but wouldn't you say to be 'the best GSL player ever' you at one point have to win the thing, too? And not just be "up there" long enough?
Sure I agree with you (although I think his 2013-15 results are more impressive than you give him credit for, due to how stacked that era is). My argument is not that Maru is definitely the Goat over Serral (I'd give him the edge but it's basically a toss up imo). My main disagreement is using the h2h from Maru vs Serral for anything conclusive, imo it's just not particularly relevant. Serral got lucky that the majority of his matches against Maru were during the timeframe where he had the edge.
I’ll only concede the point if you also concede Maru was lucky to be placed to have a career spanning basically the entirety of pro SC2 :p
I dont think Balnazza is underrating his 2013-2015, least from my read. More that he was ‘one of the best’ rather than ‘the guy’. He was always hanging around as a top player, placing consistently and his subsequent Proleague record attests to that but say, an Inno or Zest were blowing him out of the water in terms of winning things consistently in HoTS, then subsequently early LoTV.
Well blowing out of the water is hyperbolic, but you get my point.
*Edit* it’s not even that hyperbolic. 2013, 2015 and then 2018 with WESG, which got him up to 3 Premiers. Quite a while, although there’s a lot of consistent top 4 finishes there. Then the rest of his 12 remaining titles all come from 2018 onwards.
Whereas someone like herO picked up 5 between 2013 thru 2015, including a Starleague himself. Inno has 4 from that same period, with 2 Starleagues. Etc
Yeah I never said he was the best during that era. I just think being one of the best and achieving what he did during that era is extremely impressive. Back then if you had a bad day in the ro32 you got eliminated right then and there, whereas nowadays if you have a bad day you still probably make it into the ro8 and then just need to win three more series to win the trophy.
It's hard to say exactly how much more a trophy from that era should count compared to one in todays era, but it definitely should count a lot more. Players like Rogue, Stats and TY played throughout that era without winning a single tournament! That's my problem with Balnazza saying he "only" won 2 Starleagues during that era, as if it was a negative point
Then for future clarification: When I say "he *ONLY* won 2 Starleagues" I see that through a "we are trying to find the best player this game has ever seen"-lense. If you would ask me if Maru is a damn good player even prior to 2018, I would definetly say "ofc he is, he won two damn starleagues!"
On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote: On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players. Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4?
On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote: [quote] But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?
Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
Not sure how that's related in any way to my point? My point is that Mbappe outperforming Messi during the time they both played at PSG doesn't mean he's the all time greater player
My dude, in their mid-twenties most (E)Sports-athletes reach their prime, not fall off. And it is not like other players aren't playing this game for 12 years straight either. There is just not an excuse for a claimed GOAT to "lose motivation" at this stage and time...
On February 06 2024 04:24 Poopi wrote:
On February 06 2024 03:19 Balnazza wrote:
On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote: On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players. Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4?
On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote: [quote] But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?
Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
Winnings/2018 almost all zergs over performed 2018 wasn’t the worst offender, it was around the same as late 2017 & hydra buff in terms of Zerg being strong, 2019 was the worst, then it kinda maintained around 2017-2018 level the following years Maru was the only Terran getting any success in 2018 though, it’s quite clear looking at the winnings
If you look at the winnings by Top 10, I don't feel Zerg stands particularly out? Sure, by a larger margin Zerg earned the most (I mean...zerg also one two out of the biggest events). But by the 5th place Terran and Zerg are already equal again. Considering the persistent you have to point out how balance affected Serrals rise SO much, I would have expected something like "the 10th best Zerg wins as much as the 2nd best Terran". Not a maybe slightly misaligned, but overall completly normal spread ._.
Holding against Maru that he didn't stay 100% motivated for 14 years so we could see his best version vs Serral's best version is pretty disingenous I think considering Serral hasn't done that either/didn't need to do that due to his shorter career. Do you really think keeping your 100% drive & competitive spirit for 6 years is as hard as it is to do that for 14 years? If in 8 years Serral is still just as dominant as he is now, then you can hold it against Maru that he didn't keep his 100% motivation for 14 years - not now.
Maru and Serral have almsot the same age. Maru won 2 premiers prior to Serral's rise. Which in the overall view isnt much (not at the #1 GOAT dispute, at least). People are trying to balance Maru's earlier wins as if they had been "best of the world" level achievement, which they were not.
I do think that those early achievements by Maru do count for GOAT dispute, but with the weight they had at that time. How many premier were disputed at the time a year?
If you look at Maru's results page, you wont see a lot of golden squares before 2018; In the stretch of 2013-2014, there quite a few top 4's, and also in 2017, which is when Maru's golden age starts and hits its peak in 2018.
Its hard to weight Maru's accomplishments vs Serral's. Maru's top tier longevity is indeed something very admirable. Just like Serral's dominance from 2018 on (It's been 6 years beeing the best SCII player! - with a hot Maru onboard). In premier tourneys both Maru and Serral participated together from WESG 2017 forward (which Maru won), Serral doubled top 4 finish counts of Maru.
Its a hard balance to execute. But i go with Serral. Never seen anyone playing so solidly for so long in almost every premier tournament.
Serral hasn't been the top player since 2018 straight and I really wish people would either back it up or stop making that argument. Serral wasn't the best zerg in 2019, 2020, or 2021 (the best zerg player in those years were either reynor, dark, or rogue)
Serral was a huge favorite these years, but didn't manage to win / live up to the insane expectations ; which is also the case for Maru.
I’d argue he was still the best Zerg overall for that span, and for most individual years.
His last Katowice came in a year that otherwise was pretty comparable to every other.
Peaking for the big events is of course also important but I don’t think others doing so, or Serral not mean that overall he wasn’t generally the best Zerg
On January 27 2024 09:14 Balnazza wrote: I'm still not buying into the hype that Mvp is even on this list. Being dominant when the game was new is just not that big of a feat. Sorry for yet again making the side-step to WC3, but I don't feel like DayFly or Madfrog ever were seriously in a Top 10 discussion of all time, considering how fast they dropped out compared to...well, everyone else.
Zest being the best Protoss seems about right. Him not being Top 5 also seems right.
Zest on paper is definitely great. Though I would put MC over him in terms of influence, Rain over him in terms of defining styles, and SoS over him for clutch play. Still happy to see a fellow Toss on a top 10.
MVP's story, influence, injury, comebacks, nukes, and him just being a normal human being in an era of giants... I definitely think he deserves to be in the top 10, debatable for the top 4 (the 4 spots left).
Regardless of whatever came after, the age of MVP/MC/MMA/Nesta gave us an incredibly entertaining era. No Terran after ever, had their mouth open in such beautiful form when they were so intensely focused (Gumiho, looking at you), just, great times.
My personal take for the rest of top 4, after seen #6~10: Maru, Rogue, MVP, Dark.
On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote: On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players. Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4?
On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote: [quote] Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport.
But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?
Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
Not sure how that's related in any way to my point? My point is that Mbappe outperforming Messi during the time they both played at PSG doesn't mean he's the all time greater player
My dude, in their mid-twenties most (E)Sports-athletes reach their prime, not fall off. And it is not like other players aren't playing this game for 12 years straight either. There is just not an excuse for a claimed GOAT to "lose motivation" at this stage and time...
On February 06 2024 04:24 Poopi wrote:
On February 06 2024 03:19 Balnazza wrote:
On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote: On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players. Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4?
On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:
On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote: [quote] Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport.
But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately.
Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was.
Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?
Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
Winnings/2018 almost all zergs over performed 2018 wasn’t the worst offender, it was around the same as late 2017 & hydra buff in terms of Zerg being strong, 2019 was the worst, then it kinda maintained around 2017-2018 level the following years Maru was the only Terran getting any success in 2018 though, it’s quite clear looking at the winnings
If you look at the winnings by Top 10, I don't feel Zerg stands particularly out? Sure, by a larger margin Zerg earned the most (I mean...zerg also one two out of the biggest events). But by the 5th place Terran and Zerg are already equal again. Considering the persistent you have to point out how balance affected Serrals rise SO much, I would have expected something like "the 10th best Zerg wins as much as the 2nd best Terran". Not a maybe slightly misaligned, but overall completly normal spread ._.
Holding against Maru that he didn't stay 100% motivated for 14 years so we could see his best version vs Serral's best version is pretty disingenous I think considering Serral hasn't done that either/didn't need to do that due to his shorter career. Do you really think keeping your 100% drive & competitive spirit for 6 years is as hard as it is to do that for 14 years? If in 8 years Serral is still just as dominant as he is now, then you can hold it against Maru that he didn't keep his 100% motivation for 14 years - not now.
Maru and Serral have almsot the same age. Maru won 2 premiers prior to Serral's rise. Which in the overall view isnt much (not at the #1 GOAT dispute, at least). People are trying to balance Maru's earlier wins as if they had been "best of the world" level achievement, which they were not.
I do think that those early achievements by Maru do count for GOAT dispute, but with the weight they had at that time. How many premier were disputed at the time a year?
If you look at Maru's results page, you wont see a lot of golden squares before 2018; In the stretch of 2013-2014, there quite a few top 4's, and also in 2017, which is when Maru's golden age starts and hits its peak in 2018.
Its hard to weight Maru's accomplishments vs Serral's. Maru's top tier longevity is indeed something very admirable. Just like Serral's dominance from 2018 on (It's been 6 years beeing the best SCII player! - with a hot Maru onboard). In premier tourneys both Maru and Serral participated together from WESG 2017 forward (which Maru won), Serral doubled top 4 finish counts of Maru.
Its a hard balance to execute. But i go with Serral. Never seen anyone playing so solidly for so long in almost every premier tournament.
Serral hasn't been the top player since 2018 straight and I really wish people would either back it up or stop making that argument. Serral wasn't the best zerg in 2019, 2020, or 2021 (the best zerg player in those years were either reynor, dark, or rogue)
It's possible that he's been the best player overall for the period 2018–present (in the sense of having the most premier wins/high level placements when he doesn't win/overall win-rate per game, etc)—and also that there have been stretches within that very long period where someone else was number one for a tournament or a season or whatever. He doesn't need to have been "the top player since 2018 straight" for that to be the case, and I think that is true.
But I'm not even sure I'd agree with you on, for example, Reynor being better in 2019. On Aligulac Serral was better against Koreans (65–29 (69.15%) games, 23–7 (76.67%) matches) than Reynor (58–47 (55.24%) games, 19–12 (61.29%) in matches), better in the head to head (6–4 in multi game series, 29–17 in games), and better in winning at winning tournaments:
2019 WCS Winter Europe: Reynor wins, Serral runner-up (3-4) IEM Season XIII - Katowice: Serral loses in quarterfinals 2-3 vs eventual winner soO; I don't see Reynor anywhere on the page except that apparently he in the 29th-36th tier for distribution of prize money) World Electronic Sports Games 2018¹: Serral runner-up; Reynor out in Ro16 2019 WCS Spring: Serral wins defeats Reynor 3-0 in the semis) 2019 WCS Summer: Reynor wins, Serral runner-up (2-4) Assembly Summer 2019: Serral loses in semis 2-3 to Stats; Reynor out last in group stage) 2019 WCS Fall: Serral wins, Reynor runner-up (1-4) 2019 GSL vs. the World: Serral wins, Reynor loses 0-3 to SpeCial in Ro16 2019 WCS Global Finals: Reynor runner-up (1-4 vs Dark), defeats Serral 3-2 in the semis) HSCXX: Serral wins 3-2 and 2-1 in a Bo5 and bracket reset Bo3 over Reynor
¹ They really ought to have just named it for the year it was being held
I don't see how you look at the big picture for the year and not still have Serral over Reynor for 2019. If you compared Serral vs Dark or Rogue maybe they were better in 2020 or 2021; I don't know for sure what I think without double checking, and those comparisons are less straightforward because of the incongruity of events played. But maybe he actually was still better overall in those years.