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Hi guys, I'm quite new to Starcraft and I play Terran.
Anyways the problem I'm having is that sometimes a Protoss will rush me with his first 2 dragoons.....and I will lose some units trying to defend this.
And then after that, due to my low unit count, he just keeps sending dragoons or DTs to slaughter me
I've included a replay and I hope you guys can help me...
Thanks in advance
Replay: http://s9.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=16UIR82E4R4OA3NJ5LIG57AZFS
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Sweden33719 Posts
Ok, first of all, the guy you played is someone semi-famous I think? I recognize the name at least.
Anyway.
You shouldn't wall-in on luna, do sup -> rax -> gas (9 sup, rax after sup is done, gas at 12 or if probe gets in your main early you might want to gas faster to avoid getting offensive gassed). You should scout around 13 or earlier IMO.
Make a marine to chase/stop his probe from entering. Get a second depot (you can often use depots to improve mining or to improve defence, but for now just stick them somewhere like behind your minerals or beneath them), then a factory. Get 5 marines and put them on your ramp (do not put them too low or they will be seen, also in my opinion floating a barrack over your marines is COMPLETELY useless, lots of people do it, I have no idea why, it only helps the toss. Only time you should do it is when you are blocking a zealot rush, and then you place 2 scvs in front, select them with marines, click hold and float the rax to cover the scvs).
Anyway, 5 marines at the top of your ramp is enough to stop the initial 2 dragoons that show up, and if you see 1 you can actually chase it away with your marines, definitely worth it.
You should move out as your first tank comes, this is done because you want him to be gone from your ramp so you can lay mines which you should have started researching at the same time as your tank started building (ie as soon as your machineshop was completed), by the time you have 5 marines and 1 tank he'll have 2 dragoons with 2 more on the way, just get him to back off as far as possible (you can use 2 scvs with this attack if you want, to trap goons) while you lay mines in a line with your first vulture.
It's actually okay to lose your tank and marines if you can chase him really far away or kill half his goons. If this happens, you might be able to get your second vulture outside and put mines in front of his natural and perhaps at his mineral only/mineral only bridge.
The mineless vultures should be sent to patrol expansions unless you think you need them to defend.
If you see (or suspect) he's going to try to attack with dragoons/shuttle, make a bunker (losing marines earlier is very bad if it comes to this ).
Anyway, rewinding a bit, when you first move out you should immediately start a command center at your natural (or in your main, I'm not sure why every terran and their grandmothers all place the CC at nat, I guess it's because they don't have to lift it, ah well). Siege should be started shortly, and after your second vulture you should be making tanks.
Ok, now you have the basic build for a FD Terran (Fake Double Terran, honestly I think fake gundam is a better name but whatever ;p it's not really a fake gundam into expo since that's done with 2 facs).
From what I saw in your replay you made way, way too few scvs.. Never stop making scvs early game, only reason you'd want to stop making scvs is:
1) You can't get out (confined to your natural), in this case you will want the biggest army possible and since you can't get out to expand excess scvs wont do any good since they can't be transferred.. And by the time you do get out and have a CC up, your main will probably have run dry so you can just use those SCVs.
2) You are doing some special scv-cutting build which allows you to have more units than normal, earlier than normal .. Well, if you are new you won't be doing this for a while so don't worry about it!
3) You have so many scvs that you find you can't attack because your army is too small ;p This might lead to you having to turtle a lot since your army is never strong enough to face his
But basically, as long as you can expand keep making those scvs, stop when you get too many.
Ok, so let's move on to the later parts of the game;
On luna, after a 2 gate range opening, you are likely to see either a relatively fast expand (after 3-4 goons, this is done to match yours, he obviously won't be attacking you if you see this), a dark templar follow up (engineering bay should be gotten relatively soon after you have started your command center by the way), be vary of this if he uses a zealot to absorb mines (and for this reason, the further out your vulture is able to get, the better, as you are not forced to put them all in the same place, if you want to be safe you should use both vulture's mines defensively), yeah, I guess you'd want to focus fire the unit that's trying to draw mines to try to ensure your mines survive.
Him moving units into mines might not always be a sign of dark templars, it could be him trying to make his other goons shoot the mine as it pops up to chase the unit, it could be him fucking up, or it could be him being less than bright
Another opening I guess you'll see your fair share of is a goon/shuttle (with 4 zealots or so, in it) attack.. Well, Turrets, tanks and good mine placement = good, a bunker and you are totally safe.
What you don't want is any tank being a complete free kill for his shuttle with zealots, if he's going to get a tank he's going to have to sacrifice his shuttle you know? You don't want him to be able to sweep in and drop 4 zealots right on top of 2-4 of your tanks, the shuttle should be dead before it reaches the second tank (ideally).
Another semi common opening (tho it seems to have fallen out of grace, it was very popular for a short while vs FD Terran) is to open gate -> range -> robo -> gate, this way, the toss will have maybe 3 range dragoons when the terran moves out with his FD build, the terran will be able to chase the protoss a considerable distance (maybe even up his ramp), while the toss will take shots at the terran while retreating.. DO NOT attack the toss unless you are sure you can win (ie him fucking up and losing 2 dragoons to your initial push out your base). Move to his choke or close to it, put a mine at his expo (annoying), put mines in a line from his base to yours.
Get your cc up, get siege and a bunker - you are safe.
If you don't bunker and he does this build, if his timing is right, you'll find yourself with 4 marines, 2 minesless vultures and 2-3 tanks max vs 7-8 dragoons with range and observer.. Basically you die.
So get that siege quickly, get your bunker up and get an engineering bay (if you are unable to scout him especially).
DT drop is another build you might see, and one that is VERY strong vs this build, so scout a lot (when your first scout is getting low on HP, send it to his mineral line, take an scv from your main and order it to mine from his minerals, that way he'll pass through any units and get in, at the same time you can send your scv back home, it might survive).
Another important thing to do is count pylons, and see if anything seems late, if his build looks normal try to see if he has the normal amount of units.. either he's saving for a fast expo or he's making his tech buildings somewhere else. Scout well as you really wouldn't want to invest a lot in turrets vs a fast expo..
Sometimes a protoss player will put their 2nd pylon somewhere random on the map (hidden), just to scare the terran.
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I love FA but Im really really not going to read that (Guess its great becouse it always is) anyway thats a looong post,
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I read the post. FA, its almost a TvP guide. Anyhow, its 100 times better than the one written by exalted which is so much advertised in TL.net. Really, great post.
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FA big thanks for your reply!! i was about to ask a few question regarding TvP (my worst MU) and you almost answered it :D
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Yeah good one FA. One more thing, if the protoss is preventing u from moving out with lots of goons/dt's to slow down your expand while building his own, starport may come handy with 4 vulture drop into his main. This may punish too agressive protoss builds.
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Wow thanks alot FA
By the way since we're in TvP I thought I'd ask this:
When a reaver gets dropped in your mineral line, how do you react? Pull all your SCVs away and let your tanks blast at the reaver or?
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Just hold ramp(cliff) so goons do half dmg and u can shoot them, 5marines not 3 and if u dont fell safe put scv in entry thats all and dont research Siege and no add on second.. if u go like this research mines or if u go second add go 3tanks and u can also go siege its the safest it can be but sux vs really fast DT...
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Sweden33719 Posts
On December 21 2005 06:58 Ice_MY wrote:Wow thanks alot FA By the way since we're in TvP I thought I'd ask this: When a reaver gets dropped in your mineral line, how do you react? Pull all your SCVs away and let your tanks blast at the reaver or? Run scvs away, but click stop on the last one so that the scarab is blocked =] Run tanks away from scarabs (if you do this, it will take 3 scarabs instead of 2 to kill it).
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On December 21 2005 08:12 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2005 06:58 Ice_MY wrote:Wow thanks alot FA By the way since we're in TvP I thought I'd ask this: When a reaver gets dropped in your mineral line, how do you react? Pull all your SCVs away and let your tanks blast at the reaver or? Run scvs away, but click stop on the last one so that the scarab is blocked =] Run tanks away from scarabs (if you do this, it will take 3 scarabs instead of 2 to kill it).
Won't stopping the SCV just make you lose that SCV instead of having the scarab dud out and kill nothing? And also allow the Reaver to fire its next round earlier than it would have if you had let the scarab dud?
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On December 21 2005 06:58 Ice_MY wrote: When a reaver gets dropped in your mineral line, how do you react?
You shouldn't be reacting to a Reaver being dropped in your mineral line, you should be reacting to a shuttle approaching your mineral line.
Glance at your minimap more frequently. And hit shift+tab at the beginning of your first game of every session so that all of your opponents will appear bright red on it. Not only is the red easier to see, but you'll be trained to spot that red in your minimap, because it's always red red red
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i think what frozen arbiter had in mind was that the stopped scv will block the scarab which was going to hit an scv (that was aimed specifically and not randomly by the toss player) further away so the scarab will find an obstacle in his path and will eventually only blow up and kill that one scv. i'm not sure if it actually works but it's interesting and it might worth a try
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On December 21 2005 05:01 PlayJunior wrote: I read the post. FA, its almost a TvP guide. Anyhow, its 100 times better than the one written by exalted which is so much advertised in TL.net. Really, great post.
Thank you, dipshit.
Ok, just read FA's post. It's very good to describe the Midas[gm] build that everyone uses on Luna, however, if he goes 2 gate range before robotics facility, you do not want to chase him too far, becuase he will be able to meet you in the middle and slaughter you. This is when you need to make a bunker at your natural choke.
This FD terran is very good becuase it shows a lot of power, while at heart being a 1fac cc, however, this only propels you into the midgame, where you need to take it from there with either an expand to your mineral only or a fast timing rush, becuase he will inevitably double expand in response to your Midas.
Since you can't really play a midgame with starport, I would suggest if they are close positions, to mass and take him out with the timing rush, and if not, get two armories, push out to your mineral only, max, and then start pushing in.
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2factory vulture is very weak on Luna becuase you don't have enough marines and you can't wall. I strongly suggest the following builds to be used:
1fac cc regular 1fac cc midas[gm] style 2fac nada build 2fac gundam 2fac tank
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Sweden33719 Posts
On December 21 2005 09:40 exalted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2005 05:01 PlayJunior wrote: I read the post. FA, its almost a TvP guide. Anyhow, its 100 times better than the one written by exalted which is so much advertised in TL.net. Really, great post. Thank you, dipshit. Ok, just read FA's post. It's very good to describe the Midas[gm] build that everyone uses on Luna, however, if he goes 2 gate range before robotics facility, you do not want to chase him too far, becuase he will be able to meet you in the middle and slaughter you. This is when you need to make a bunker at your natural choke. This FD terran is very good becuase it shows a lot of power, while at heart being a 1fac cc, however, this only propels you into the midgame, where you need to take it from there with either an expand to your mineral only or a fast timing rush, becuase he will inevitably double expand in response to your Midas. Since you can't really play a midgame with starport, I would suggest if they are close positions, to mass and take him out with the timing rush, and if not, get two armories, push out to your mineral only, max, and then start pushing in. IMO if the toss goes 2 gate before range (which is what most of my post assumed) and you can chase him far out, it doesn't really matter if he slaughters you because he's COMPLETELY blind, maybe your vulture went around and there's mines behind him, maybe your vulture just put them defensively, maybe they are in the middle of the map..
Generally, if you 2 gate and are forced to run too far away yet you were making a lot of dragoons (and not just making 4 then expanding) the game becomes very annoying ;o
Anyway, I don't double expand vs that strat personally.. I think it's risky. And since I prefer an earlier nex (4 goons then nex if I know he's doing that build) my first expo is not far behind his at all.
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dont you need 11 gas, 16 fac to hold on the ramp? (luna ofcourse)
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Something I want to try is get only 2 marines (save 100-150 minerals). Most toss players assume you have 4 of 5 under the rax (which you should float over top your ramp) and most of the time don't even attempt to break it.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On December 21 2005 10:52 TeRRan`UseR wrote: Something I want to try is get only 2 marines (save 100-150 minerals). Most toss players assume you have 4 of 5 under the rax (which you should float over top your ramp) and most of the time don't even attempt to break it. Well, you basically die if they do ;p
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exalted what is the "2fac nada build" some kind of rush with 1 add on speed then mine upgrade?
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Not sure what he means by that but i've been seeing a few replays of him recently where he gets his 1st fact normally, but then doesn't add a second fact until after he builds his first tank. he doesn't get add-on for the 2nd fact and researches speed first then mines off of the 1st. Basically seems like another variation of some sort of 2fact pressure build.
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On December 21 2005 08:29 Chris307 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2005 06:58 Ice_MY wrote: When a reaver gets dropped in your mineral line, how do you react? You shouldn't be reacting to a Reaver being dropped in your mineral line, you should be reacting to a shuttle approaching your mineral line. Glance at your minimap more frequently. And hit shift+tab at the beginning of your first game of every session so that all of your opponents will appear bright red on it. Not only is the red easier to see, but you'll be trained to spot that red in your minimap, because it's always red red red
haha good idea... No more of this teal colored toss on a twilight map camouflage nonsencse
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I always used to hate Yellow protoss on Gamea Gowon. The whole map was the badlands grass terran. T_T
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The original version was Jungle terrain
I hate the bastard WGT versions of promaps.
Like the jungle Nostalgia or the winter Guillotine.
Winter Guillotine... I mean wtf........
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On December 21 2005 14:07 Chris307 wrote:
Winter Guillotine... I mean wtf........
That one makes perfect sense you know, blood looks so good on snow. :-)
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fa wrote: Sometimes a protoss player will put their 2nd pylon somewhere random on the map (hidden), just to scare the terran.
who does this besides me?
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Sweden33719 Posts
Testie
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Grot. Hope to see this thread sticky
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On December 21 2005 12:07 Grass.nS) wrote: Not sure what he means by that but i've been seeing a few replays of him recently where he gets his 1st fact normally, but then doesn't add a second fact until after he builds his first tank. he doesn't get add-on for the 2nd fact and researches speed first then mines off of the 1st. Basically seems like another variation of some sort of 2fact pressure build.
Yes, this is the nada build, with 4 marines so that early pressure doesn't hurt him. It's like a mix of Joyo and 2fac vult.
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On December 21 2005 16:31 FrozenArbiter wrote:Testie
FA, I believe double expand is perfectly fine vs this build, after all it is simply a 1fac cc with 4-5 extra marines, nothing really is changed. He also needs to get engineering bay and at least 1-2 turrets to deal with any potential drops, anyway. And then if you cut probes at the 3rd nexus warping in and go to 5->8 gateways, there isn't much he can do.
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Exalted you are not mature enough not to insult someone who doesn't like your guide?
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Sweden33719 Posts
On December 21 2005 20:54 exalted wrote:FA, I believe double expand is perfectly fine vs this build, after all it is simply a 1fac cc with 4-5 extra marines, nothing really is changed. He also needs to get engineering bay and at least 1-2 turrets to deal with any potential drops, anyway. And then if you cut probes at the 3rd nexus warping in and go to 5->8 gateways, there isn't much he can do. Meh, I think I'd die to those timing rushes far more often -,-; + There are crazy people who don't even get engineering until way late ;p
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Risk reward
On December 21 2005 22:51 PlayJunior wrote: Exalted you are not mature enough not to insult someone who doesn't like your guide?
Why insult it if it was obviously of some help to you? It's not proclaimed as the ultimate bible of TvP, its meant to help beginners like you. It's pretty insulting when you grow past the kids books and then you insult the author becuase they aren't advanced enough.
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I don't understand why people don't block their ramp on luna.. all it takes is making your factory at your wall, and it obviously beats his dragoon
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Sweden33719 Posts
On December 22 2005 05:53 exalted wrote:Risk reward Show nested quote +On December 21 2005 22:51 PlayJunior wrote: Exalted you are not mature enough not to insult someone who doesn't like your guide? Why insult it if it was obviously of some help to you? It's not proclaimed as the ultimate bible of TvP, its meant to help beginners like you. It's pretty insulting when you grow past the kids books and then you insult the author becuase they aren't advanced enough. I prefer low risks until I'm in such a position where a risk isn't game ending
On December 22 2005 06:15 hasuwar wrote: I don't understand why people don't block their ramp on luna.. all it takes is making your factory at your wall, and it obviously beats his dragoon
Uh, you'll still need to make marines or a goon rush is going to cripple you BAD.
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this is why i like you FA. Your seem so cool and always willing to just help someone out. gj and very nice post indeed.
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FA your comment marks the major style difference between Koreans and Western play - Koreans aren't afraid to go allin on a certain timing, especially in two particular situations
a) they are worse than the opponent b) they are better than the opponent
For example, if you know you're better than another player, you probably will 4 pool to get it over quickly, and if you know you're worse than them, you will probably also 4 pool becuase you know that's your only chance at victory. Pretty funny, but true.
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Sweden33719 Posts
I don't mind doing that in PvZ or PvP but in PvT I play it safe, it also has the added benefit of being able to stop a) double terran expo b) scv cutting rushes..
How I play in a tournament/league and how I play in ladder is a bit different tho, ladders and games = use to practice technique. Practicing = Practicing a certain build.
And I agree completely with your first statement btw, this is just my reasoning for why I play how I play =]
Oh and if I'm behind I don't mind going all-in, nor when I realize I'm not as good as my opponent and the game matters. Tho I also sort of dislike winning with cheese because I'd feel silly if I knocked out someone much better than me with a cannon rush..
I did DT drop assem tho :D!! I should have done much better in the straightup game on luna but I sort of lost focus and forgot to make gateways so I got raped after being ahead early game. So after that I decided, well, I need to DT drop to win on LT.
That and I'm generally pretty confident in being able to win.
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On December 21 2005 09:40 exalted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2005 05:01 PlayJunior wrote: I read the post. FA, its almost a TvP guide. Anyhow, its 100 times better than the one written by exalted which is so much advertised in TL.net. Really, great post. Thank you, dipshit. Ok, just read FA's post. It's very good to describe the Midas[gm] build that everyone uses on Luna, however, if he goes 2 gate range before robotics facility, you do not want to chase him too far, becuase he will be able to meet you in the middle and slaughter you. This is when you need to make a bunker at your natural choke. This FD terran is very good becuase it shows a lot of power, while at heart being a 1fac cc, however, this only propels you into the midgame, where you need to take it from there with either an expand to your mineral only or a fast timing rush, becuase he will inevitably double expand in response to your Midas. Since you can't really play a midgame with starport, I would suggest if they are close positions, to mass and take him out with the timing rush, and if not, get two armories, push out to your mineral only, max, and then start pushing in.
if he goes 2 gate goon late robo he's not going to have his ob for a while, min ur choke and then he will have to sacrifice goons to get in. by the time he has ob you should have seige mode. i'm not sure about a bunker here, depends more on the terran's skill than anything.
random thought, when pros do FD terran they usually have 6 marines when they move out, but it's kinda tough to get that
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On December 22 2005 05:53 exalted wrote:Risk reward Show nested quote +On December 21 2005 22:51 PlayJunior wrote: Exalted you are not mature enough not to insult someone who doesn't like your guide? Why insult it if it was obviously of some help to you? It's not proclaimed as the ultimate bible of TvP, its meant to help beginners like you. It's pretty insulting when you grow past the kids books and then you insult the author becuase they aren't advanced enough. FA 's guide was also to help beginners like me. Saying that it is better is not a crime, imagine for a split second that it is possible to write something seemingly as simple as noob guide better than you. And if the target audience tells that yourse was worse, don't get angry. P.S. I haven't grown past those kid books. I mean, I'm still pretty beginner. P.P.S. I didn't say your guide was not advanced enough, I just said that FA's was better. Simpler, easier to read, understand, try, more straightforward. Less options, more explanations. Once again FA, my respect for your post.
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Seems like you have some reading comprehension issues. My guide was for Lost Temple, where this "TvP Stopping the Early Rush" thread is irrelevant. This is why we're talking about other builds than fact port in this thread. Also that guide was made over a year ago, when the midas[gm] was in its infancy. There is certainly a standard for writing guides, and FAs post is very good. But they cover completely different things, so its hard to have a comparison, get what I'm saying? It's especially annoying when you take it a step further and bite the hand that feeds you (one reason of why I rarely post in Strategy forum now). -- DTDominion - Siege mode alone won't stop you against 2 gate ob (especially if he goes all in with a shuttle), you will have 2-3 tanks and hope that spider mines will contain the Protoss, which it won't. Unlike 1fac cc, you need to make 2 vultures out of that one factory, which means less tanks defending when it matters. Therefore bunker is generally recommended, although it depends on a lot of factors, the most important being base distance. Midas[gm] build is very strong though, but you must be able to mix it up with different builds, especially becuase off the wall strategies like Anytime/DT Drop/Bulldog even beat it pretty badly.
When you play against the Protoss, especially on non-wall maps like Luna, you should be able to have the scouting probe see your 1fac cc / nada rush / midas as the "same" build - that means that he will only see 3-4 marines and one factory, and then his scouting probe will die. Then, you can branch off to the other builds and have him struggle to react. If he goes 1gate robo, then midas and nada's rush hurts him bad, but if he opens 2 gate range 1fac cc bites him in the ass.
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FA, how the hell is a goon rush gonna cripple me bad?
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Sweden33719 Posts
On December 23 2005 04:13 hasuwar wrote: FA, how the hell is a goon rush gonna cripple me bad? How are you going to defend your scv building the fac vs a probe/zealot? How are you going to defend your machineshop, or, indeed, the tank?
Oh and I'm glad people liked my post, thanks! No need to fight tho, iirc, a lot of people liked exalted's post.
And maybe this did help him more than yours exalted, but I'm sure there were plenty of people for whom it was completely different and this didn't really help them at all
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um, if the fac is being built, the wall is complete.. and machine shop is usually in base, and if it isn't, what are you defending it against? a goon? it's always built before a goon can kill it lol
and defend the tank? what are you smoking man..it's behind a wall, what do you mean defend the tank? rofl
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Sweden33719 Posts
You said you'd rax+fac wall, correct? Then the machineshop is RIGHT BEHIND THE FAC, IN GOON RANGE.
You'll just lose scvs needlessly -,-
And I'm not talking aobut defending the FACTORY, I'm talking about the SCV building it, since scvs tend to move around while building.
And the tank, well, it pops out right next to 2-4 dragoons, maybe THAT'S what I mean?
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On December 22 2005 23:29 exalted wrote: Seems like you have some reading comprehension issues. My guide was for Lost Temple, where this "TvP Stopping the Early Rush" thread is irrelevant. This is why we're talking about other builds than fact port in this thread. Also that guide was made over a year ago, when the midas[gm] was in its infancy. There is certainly a standard for writing guides, and FAs post is very good. But they cover completely different things, so its hard to have a comparison, get what I'm saying? It's especially annoying when you take it a step further and bite the hand that feeds you (one reason of why I rarely post in Strategy forum now). ...
Generally, two things are comparable if they have something in common(you can compare only the common part), and there exists some units of measurment that can be used to evaluate that common part, say, in numbers. The two guides have many things in common-they are the same matchup, both cover early stage of the game, and are aimed for almost the same audience. The units of measurement are simplicity, usability and so on. So, we can compare the two things. I consider the one of FA's better. Imagine there is no personal insult to you. I could begin my post with "it seems that you have understanding issues", but I didn't. If you have written some guide some time, other people might write a better one. As FA said, there are people that like your guide. I do not. I write a lot of things. And I receive feedback from different ppl. Truly, I don't like the negative ones. But I pay most attention to them. Negative feedbacks MIGHT point you what could be done better. And believe me, whatever shocking it is, even you have room to improve, especiialy-when it comes to guide-writing. And please, do not use expressions like "hands that feed you", you are talking like you are Moses that brought manana from sky to jewish ppl. Honestly, you think that sitting and writing 1-2 pages of guide gives you right to say such things? Don't be so exalted man.
To others: I am sorry for this bashing in Strategy forum. If I knew that saying that I don't like his guide will spoil this thread so much I would not do it. I will stop as soon as do not receive any insulting answer in this thread or via PM. Btw, is there an ignore list down there?
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On December 23 2005 06:01 FrozenArbiter wrote: You said you'd rax+fac wall, correct? Then the machineshop is RIGHT BEHIND THE FAC, IN GOON RANGE.
You'll just lose scvs needlessly -,-
And I'm not talking aobut defending the FACTORY, I'm talking about the SCV building it, since scvs tend to move around while building.
And the tank, well, it pops out right next to 2-4 dragoons, maybe THAT'S what I mean? my god.. you are gonna make me make a rep showing you what i meant aren't you? i cannot believe you do not understand this.. rofl
http://webpages.charter.net/ddogg/yoyo.rep
show me any protoss who gets 4 goons with range or whatever you think is gonna own before the tank pops out.. this is no different than goons on LT lol. Even if it gets shot once while it rallys back into the base a ways, it's not like it's gonna die, or that the goons are gonna cause any other damage
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Sweden33719 Posts
1) It's not zealot tight. 2) He can easily fit what, 5 dragoons up there? The only way a wall-in works is because he can't hit it with 5 dragoons all standing next to it..
Don't wall in on luna :o
Maybe it can be made to work but I think it's better to just get the marines :O
It's not a bad idea tho, just not very practical unless you can somehow make the high ground area where goons can stand smaller xO
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lol yes it is zealot tight.. crimany. We gotta play a game, where you try to dragoon rush me, or try to get zealots in my base when I do it.. the only way any damage would be done was if the T was a newb who lost his tank(s) to ranged goons
what you're saying about goons is like saying that 9 on LT is impossible to stop dragoons unless you make marines. Even more than 5 can fit up there..but they never, ever do any damage vs anyone who isn't dumb :[
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a quick response to the flame war. i think i respect exalted more because of this thread now. him and FA both very worth reading. thanks to both. exalted is allowed to be annoyed, u guys, come on. besides that, he's been very informative, which is what strategy forum is about.
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Nice guide FA, I learned at last that famous fake gundam into expo that everyone does on Luna ^_^, I needed it my TvP is horrible :p
Btw, isn't it a variation of the fake elky rush ? then I think the credit should go back to everyone's favourite frenchie
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Sweden33719 Posts
On December 23 2005 17:12 hasuwar wrote: lol yes it is zealot tight.. crimany. We gotta play a game, where you try to dragoon rush me, or try to get zealots in my base when I do it.. the only way any damage would be done was if the T was a newb who lost his tank(s) to ranged goons
what you're saying about goons is like saying that 9 on LT is impossible to stop dragoons unless you make marines. Even more than 5 can fit up there..but they never, ever do any damage vs anyone who isn't dumb :[ Then the replay must have been bugged.. Because the zealots walked right in.
Guess I'll watch it in single player..
Anyway, before I see how exactly, the wall looks like (from what I saw in the rep it would be much worse than 9 o clock on LT since they can't stand in a fucking line there) I won't comment, but I will say this; 2 gate ranged dragoon is a million times less likely to happen on LT compared to Luna --
On December 24 2005 03:49 ChApFoU wrote:Nice guide FA, I learned at last that famous fake gundam into expo that everyone does on Luna ^_^, I needed it my TvP is horrible :p Btw, isn't it a variation of the fake elky rush ? then I think the credit should go back to everyone's favourite frenchie
Glad you learned something And yeah, that was one of the reasons I initially thought midas had invented it - he was always doing the elky fake gundam expo thing before FD Terran became popular :x
EDIT:
Haha, hasuwar, slight difference between watching the replay online and offline ><
Online it showed you making the weirdest wall ever-,-
Well, I still don't think it's worth it to be honest (not that I ever wall), but at least in this wallin, you can't fit in a million goons =_=
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Slightly offtopically I'd like to mention Nadas cool build vs ra on blizzcon, which would be something like fake fake double terran. He fools ra into expanding by pretending to do the FD build. Have a look at the rep!
FA had some really good points in this thread! Interesting read, thx alot :D !
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try placing your marines a little bit back from the ramp. Only one goon at a time can squeeze up to the middle of the ramp. Traditionally the marines are placed at the top or middle of it, but this enables the 2nd or even 3rd goon to hit them from lower ground. This tactic must be done without walling.
another suggestion: I realize it's a 'crutch', but if you put an scv towards the bottom of the ramp, highlight your marine(s) with the scv and the group to hold position. The SCV stops the goon from being able to see up the ramp, and its shots will literally 'miss' your marine(s). This will buy you those precious 5 seconds it takes for your tank to come out.
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