E-League Season 1 - Page 9
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HugoBallzak
700 Posts
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On May 27 2016 00:00 HugoBallzak wrote: This entire idea that coaches need to be IGL's if you want to compete at the top is so bogus. Cloud 9 had the most success it ever had with stunna backing them up. Fnatic the best team of all time have Vuggo who seemingly doesn't do anything in regards to tactics. NIP went 87-0 with no coach at all. LG have zews who doesn't seem to be involved with calling strats. LDLC won a major with a sc2 dude behind them. Tempo Storm has had most of its success after switching to boltz for IGL from peacemaker. I think it is fair to say that there are more examples of top teams where the coach doesn't actually call or make strats than there are teams with coaches who do so. James' job was to handle things outside the game and it was adren's job to call the strats. Quit trying to rewrite history that it was james' fault that adren was a terrible IGL. ehhh,, where is this coming from :S ? | ||
amazingxkcd
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
i wrote an article about this | ||
Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
what that lombardi thing ? | ||
amazingxkcd
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
is that it really is up to the team itself to make that judgement. i dont think its appropriate to make a blanket statement that coaches have to be igls or that coaches cant be the igls. | ||
Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On May 27 2016 00:09 amazingxkcd wrote: my view on the igl/coach as explained http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/cs-go/502782-the-lombardi-factor is that it really is up to the team itself to make that judgement. i dont think its appropriate to make a blanket statement that coaches have to be igls or that coaches cant be the igls. Yeah exactly, so where my question is still, where is HE getting the notion that people think coaches have to be IGL's ? | ||
amazingxkcd
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
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HugoBallzak
700 Posts
"The past few weeks has been a time of change for our CS:GO team. Despite the tumultuous happenings (s1mple, and parting ways with our coach James), our players continued to show up and perform (and possibly choke a bit I know, I know), competing and winning against some of the best rosters North America has to offer. We’ve been working to create the much needed calm that will allow us to build towards becoming the world class team we aspire to be. With Luis, we bring in a talented coach who has a wealth of strategical knowledge and guidance. Out of all the candidates we had for the coaching spot it was clear to us that Luis was the way to go. It is no secret we have been searching on how to optimize our IGL role, and we aim for Luis to take that spot on the team. Welcome to the team, peacemaker! " -Nazgul | ||
amazingxkcd
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
On May 27 2016 00:00 HugoBallzak wrote: This entire idea that coaches need to be IGL's if you want to compete at the top is so bogus. Cloud 9 had the most success it ever had with stunna backing them up. Fnatic the best team of all time have Vuggo who seemingly doesn't do anything in regards to tactics. NIP went 87-0 with no coach at all. LG have zews who doesn't seem to be involved with calling strats. LDLC won a major with a sc2 dude behind them. Tempo Storm has had most of its success after switching to boltz for IGL from peacemaker. I think it is fair to say that there are more examples of top teams where the coach doesn't actually call or make strats than there are teams with coaches who do so. James' job was to handle things outside the game and it was adren's job to call the strats. Quit trying to rewrite history that it was james' fault that adren was a terrible IGL. while navi has not won a major yet, starix still maintains full IGL role as the coach afaik, so i wouldnt make such an assertation. hell even nip now need threat to call for them if they want to do anything. what works for fnatic or other teams doesnt work for every team | ||
Ragnarork
France9034 Posts
This entire idea that coaches need to be IGL's if you want to compete at the top is so bogus which is a generality and is quite different. Starix alone makes this statement bogus. That doesn't mean it's the solution and that all the team should follow it (LG doesn't do it for example and they're fine with that, the LEGIJA period of Kinguin wasn't that convincing, they could do it on their own and didn't keep him in the end), but it shows that it's definitely not idiotic. | ||
HugoBallzak
700 Posts
Also, a coach like starix or even kuben and threat seem to be way more effective because they have actually PLAYED with their team's core in the past and have a strong chemistry together actually built on having played with each other at a high level. I just don't see how a guy who has pretty much no experience ever playing with his players can successfully IGL them at the highest level. | ||
amazingxkcd
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On May 27 2016 00:24 HugoBallzak wrote: Oh Please, there are plenty of people in this community who seem to think that a coach who IGL's is the way of the future and I am saying that this has actually proven to be the exception to the rule that player IGL's seem to be way more successful. 'Starix alone' doesn't make my statement bogus. I never said it was impossible for a coach to IGL a top team. Also, a coach like starix or even kuben and threat seem to be way more effective because they have actually PLAYED with their team's core in the past and have a strong chemistry together actually built on having played with each other at a high level. I just don't see how a guy who has pretty much no experience ever playing with his players can successfully IGL them at the highest level. Dono any of those people. they are idiots. No one recently in the recent context of your comment made any such assertion so if anything it still feels a bit out of the blue. If certain people feel that way. Go tell them. Dont preach to the choir. I do agree with the point that a good coach that has played with his players at a higher level will be a better coach much quicker. I dont agree that someone who hasnt played with them or at the highest level cant be a good coach either and eventually maybe even be better than that other type of coach. Infact in some ways if you have played with someone at a certain point may mean that you will try to implement things in ways that might not work anymore either because you can have biases in your head (even if it is somewhat subconscious) a fresh coach wont have that problem and can understand his players to. Just one of the many things I can think of but cba to keep adding. There is plenty of evidence outside CS of coaches working pretty well. I dont see why similar affects cant be achieved here. | ||
Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On May 27 2016 00:24 HugoBallzak wrote: Oh Please, there are plenty of people in this community who seem to think that a coach who IGL's is the way of the future and I am saying that this has actually proven to be the exception to the rule that player IGL's seem to be way more successful. 'Starix alone' doesn't make my statement bogus. I never said it was impossible for a coach to IGL a top team. Also, a coach like starix or even kuben and threat seem to be way more effective because they have actually PLAYED with their team's core in the past and have a strong chemistry together actually built on having played with each other at a high level. I just don't see how a guy who has pretty much no experience ever playing with his players can successfully IGL them at the highest level. Threat only played with NiP's core for like 3 days, might as well be 0. | ||
Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On May 27 2016 01:27 Djzapz wrote: Threat only played with NiP's core for like 3 days, might as well be 0. He played with them in 1.6 aswell, albeit briefly and not even close to as extensively as a Starix or a Kuben, but Kuben isnt an IGL anyway. | ||
Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On May 27 2016 01:31 Rebs wrote: He played with them in 1.6 aswell, albeit briefly and not even close to as extensively as a Starix or a Kuben, but Kuben isnt an IGL anyway. Them? I can see he briefly played with GTR and f0rest for a couple of months but left before Xizt came in. He never played with friberg and even less with pyth . So that's not even half the team, and it was in 2010, I was still shitting my diapers. | ||
Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On May 27 2016 01:42 Djzapz wrote: Them? I can see he briefly played with GTR and f0rest for a couple of months but left before Xizt came in. He never played with friberg and even less with pyth . So that's not even half the team, and it was in 2010, I was still shitting my diapers. Yeah but he was talking about core. You could argue that Xzist and Friberg are core too, but still he has played with the 2 best players on the team and has known them for a while which is the point. There is a reason why Natu was terrible and Threat is not and its not just because he is in general just a better coach than Natu. Imo Natu is super over rated. And technically you cant have played with all 5 players on a team you are coaching unless you played with them on different teams or as a sub which isnt the dynamic we are talking about either. | ||
Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On May 27 2016 02:05 Rebs wrote: Yeah but he was talking about core. You could argue that Xzist and Friberg are core too, but still he has played with the 2 best players on the team which is the point. And technically you cant have played with all 5 players on a team you are coaching unless you played with them on different teams or as a sub which isnt the dynamic we are talking about either. I'm just saying it's remote enough to be a nonfactor or almost. Different game, different era of counterstrike. Comparing Threat to Starix or Kuben seems like a stretch. I understand but yeh. | ||
Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On May 27 2016 02:09 Djzapz wrote: I'm just saying it's remote enough to be a nonfactor or almost. Different game, different era of counterstrike. Comparing Threat to Starix or Kuben seems like a stretch. I understand but yeh. Different game and different era of counterstrike is the same thing. NIP is working for a reason its not just because Threat is really smart about the game. Although that helps. Even little things like trusting or having confidence in the person stems from your experience with them. And if Forest and GRT are listening to them then the rest of the team has like no reason to not follow suite.Not just the tactical side of things. So I wouldnt call it a non factor. Clearly you do, thats fine with me. Also I wasnt comparing him to Starix or Kuben, in terms of having history. To me he is better coach than Kuben and Starix when it comes to understanding in my opinion. And he was maybe a slightly better player than Kuben and about the same level as Starix back in the day. Thats a non factor. Having history with players on the team is not a non factor. if you are basing this of some liquipedia or HLTCV entry showing time spent on the same teams or something then thats a pretty silly way to look at it. Its similar to looking at player ratings and crowning them best player. | ||
Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
It's an asterix at the bottom of a page at best. If you want to say 6 months playing with 2 players 6 years ago is a big deal... sigh. Fine. Have fun. | ||
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