All in all, now, there is no man to stop One and Only, Savior!
[spoiler]Bisu vs Jaedong - Page 3
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Byyk
457 Posts
All in all, now, there is no man to stop One and Only, Savior! | ||
ray1234
Canada679 Posts
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
In early game BISU was persisting in harassment but can you see how many hydras Jaedong still had? He had fuckton hydra stilll, he had macro up still so powerful. After Jaedong's failed drop at 6 o clock, it seems like he is screwed, but Bisu wasn't able to expand fast enough and his things went dry. That last base trade was a critical moment which bisu lost. And listen to the fan girls... they can't believe it. Oh my goodness... | ||
mrdx
Vietnam1555 Posts
The thing that surprised me was that Jeadong always managed to keep a decent number of drones despite all the harasses. He must have paid very close attention to his drone count. In early game his extra 4th hatch was the key to his macro and the build fitted well with Bisu's heavy harassing & safe expanding play. It would have failed against a Toss that FE then mass attacks IMO. On January 09 2008 07:27 ReiKo wrote: Why Jaedong buried the Dronse at his main but not his second expansion? He was afraid that Bisu might have had observers there. | ||
EpiK
Korea (South)5757 Posts
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azndsh
United States4447 Posts
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Live2Win
United States6657 Posts
1.) First thing they pointed out was that Bisu lost too many zealots from the one successful drop JaeDong delivered. 2.) When Bisu was ahead in economy and successfully harrassed JaeDong multiple times, he failed to deliver the finishing blow. Here are few things I'd like to add: 3.) Corsairs. His usage of corsairs were great when he was doing the corsair/reaver harrassments, but at one point he lost almost all of them. But with 2 stargates, Bisu rebuilt his corsair army again quickly. A large part of the economy advantage he gave himself were lost in rebuilding that army. Corsairs are pretty gas expensive and takes a good bit of minerals too, so rebuilding a corsair army, which he did twice (he did it again to defend against the drops) means investing a large sum of minerals/gas. 4.) Attack timing and expansion timing. This relates to #2. Bisu successfully harrassed JD with reavers and templars, but with the minerals and gas he massed up during the harrassment, he spent on ANOTHER expo rather than a huge army. He should have spent the money on a massive army, overcome JaeDong's army in battle and expand while he moves out. Instead he spent minerals on a nexus and cannons (and another fleet of corsairs), and delayed his attack timing. This "delayed timing" gave JaeDong the time to re-establish his economy and regroup himself. 5.) Continuing from point 4, Bisu should STILL have a sizeable army to overcome JaeDong's, but that's where the plagues came into play, followed by the successful drop. When it should have been Bisu's time to bust out like army like Spartans, JaeDong landed a few extremely well placed plagues, and successfully dropped Bisu, which forced Bisu back and due to his loss of concentration (or w/e), Bisu lost a lot more units than he should have (which was point 1). To SUM IT UP: Bisu did very will with harrassments. He did very well with defensing bases. But he lost almost all the "big" battles. | ||
The Storyteller
Singapore2486 Posts
1. Jaedong anticipated Bisu's FE, and expanded to his min only early on. After pumping several lings, he also grabbed a third gas. 2. Jaedong anticipated Bisu's sair/reaver build and researched burrow. He didn't burrow his drones all the time, but he did enough so that he actually lost very few drones. Because of that, there wasn't much point in Bisu continuing the sair/reaver harrass. 3. Because his sair/reaver harras wasn't working well, Bisu decided to expand instead. In the games I've seen him play against Savior, DTs and reavers works to keep Savior's drone count low, corsairs work to keep the overlords bunched up around the hydras, and the moment Savior goes for an attack, he's punished by having corsairs cut down his overlords, followed shortly by a massive land army invasion. If I remember correctly, this happens before Bisu even sets up his third base. But I think in this case, he was spending a lot of cash on his expo and his cannons. 4. Then Jaedong drops the 6 expo and does very little damage, but the threat of the drop has forced Bisu to keep two reavers and a high templar in there to defend. Coupled with Jaedong's relatively undamaged economy, that's puts Bisu at a disadvantage. Without the continued reaver harrass, Jaedong's army grows to epic proportions. He can afford hydras to defend his overlords, while the resources Bisu could have used to pump up his army have gone into securing his expansion. Throughout the game, Bisu only had one shuttle in the air at a time. I think Jaedong realised the advanteg he had. He kept doing small attacks at 6 and never really took a huge amount of damage in relation to his total army size. But he forced Bisu to keep those templar and reavers that would otherwise be used for harrass in there. 5. By this stage, I think it was impossible to continue harrassing overlords. Jaedong's bases were well defended with hydras. Bisu's probably thought his best bet would have been to move out with a land army, which he did. However, when Bisu squares off against Savior (if it gets to this point at all), his harrass will have kept Savior's economy so weak that his land army will be able to walk all over him. In this case, Jaedong's army was big enough to hold its own. 6. Even then Bisu might have won with the help of some storms, but Jaedong was smart enough to use small attacks to keep Bisu's army pinned in place while using his main force to attack elsewhere. The drop in Bisu's main and the drop at his nat are good examples. In the late game, everytime the commentators were talking about a minor battle (usually at 9, I think), there'd be a bunch of hydras slithering all over some other part of Bisu's base. 7. And, of course, defiler usage was just the icing on the cake. And to do a bit of crystal ball gazing, since it is the start fo the new year, Bisu might start losing to zergs a little more frequently now, as this game is sure to be analysed to death by every zerg out there. | ||
Sigrun
United States1653 Posts
On January 09 2008 09:22 ray1234 wrote: I think bisu made alot of dragoons because he was expecting ultras? I was thinking this as well- maybe Bisu started pumping Dragoons in anticipation of the Ultralisks that never came. | ||
teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
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Seraphim
United States4467 Posts
Much respect Had Bisu been beaten like the Jaedong vs Stork series, I would concede that Jaedong > Bisu. The fact is, however, Bisu gave Jaedong a hell of a time that game and would never give an easy game to any zerg. Especially since it was on Blue Storm, I predict Bisu would've won a 3-2 bo5 vs Jaedong. Zergs are definitely finding answers to the Bisu build, but there's no full counter yet. And again, thanks to the Jaedong fans who see the challenge that Bisu still brought upon Jaedong. But a GG indeed | ||
OneOther
United States10774 Posts
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
On January 09 2008 10:39 Seraphim wrote: I am glad all the Jaedong fanboys aren't like "OMG JAEDONG IS ANSWER TO BEESUIT PVZ - JAEDONG > BISU EZ GGNORE" Much respect Had Bisu been beaten like the Jaedong vs Stork series, I would concede that Jaedong > Bisu. The fact is, however, Bisu gave Jaedong a hell of a time that game and would never give an easy game to any zerg. Especially since it was on Blue Storm, I predict Bisu would've won a 3-2 bo5 vs Jaedong. Zergs are definitely finding answers to the Bisu build, but there's no full counter yet. And again, thanks to the Jaedong fans who see the challenge that Bisu still brought upon Jaedong. But a GG indeed wtf u talkin' bout it wuz 1 sided rape kkeekekekekekekekek. + Show Spoiler + Just kidding, it was one hell of a game, I felt that Jaedong had the win clinched, but then I remembered Bisu vs sAviOr game 2, and realized that the win is never clinched against Bisu. It was a nailbiter :p | ||
IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On January 09 2008 10:32 teamsolid wrote: goon heavy armies also do well against ultra ling, especially since they were on an even economic footing. he was playing a goon based army because jaedong was using hydra/lurk, which rapes zeal/archon but gets raped by goon+temp. i guess he didnt anticipate the addition of defilers, which seems really retarded considering who he was playing. he also didnt storm very effectively, multiple battles just ended up hydra lurk vs goon zeal with a few temps sitting idly in the back. bisu just didnt seem very sharp in general after his harass died down. But why so many goons (and without reaver support)? The correct counter to ultraling/lurk/defiler is zealot/temp/archon + reaver mixed with a small amount of goons. This is what he usually moves out and finishes the game with in most PvZ's when it reaches mid-late game. | ||
The Storyteller
Singapore2486 Posts
On January 09 2008 10:57 IdrA wrote: he also didnt storm very effectively, multiple battles just ended up hydra lurk vs goon zeal with a few temps sitting idly in the back. bisu just didnt seem very sharp in general after his harass died down. Probably because he isn't used to playing against a zeg after his harrass has failed anymore. Most of the time he has such an advantage he'd have to have a broken wrist to lose. | ||
stalife
Canada1222 Posts
I watched all those drops, did some damage, sure, but at the same time, jaedong didnt stop massing up his army.. and after first couple drops, the templar in shutle didnt do so much damage. sure, the drops looked like a real show to give for a MSL match, but seriously, bit too much. I was pretty sure by the 5th or 6th drop, bisu was thinking he won the match and wanted to fuk around with jaedong. if he does and win, then everyone would be like "wow stork sucks so much, bisu would have 3-0'ed jaedong np" so to sum it up, bisu tried to have too much fun, and just played bit too passive imo with too many drops.. most importantly, i think i saw more storms on drones than on jaedong's units.. bisu couldnt reduce jaedong's army. jaedong only lost his army by doing a stupid drop on 6, which I thought he should have went past the cannons and go for either main or nat (he coulda done way more damage, but jaedong did go past the cannons second drop) | ||
noobienoob
United States1173 Posts
On January 09 2008 11:05 The Storyteller wrote: Yeah that's exactly what I was thinking; his early game was top notch, but I felt his late game was lacking due to the fact that Jaedong wasn't as crippled as he expected. It was like Bisu's decision making went up in the air after that.Probably because he isn't used to playing against a zeg after his harrass has failed anymore. Most of the time he has such an advantage he'd have to have a broken wrist to lose. | ||
IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On January 09 2008 11:05 The Storyteller wrote: Probably because he isn't used to playing against a zeg after his harrass has failed anymore. Most of the time he has such an advantage he'd have to have a broken wrist to lose. ya, was kinda wondering what would happen when we found a zerg who could keep up with his multitasking, hope they meet again in a series on a bigger stage. | ||
Breavman
Sweden598 Posts
The drops he made were not failures all in all. The first one at six didn't do that much dmg but he managed to unload all and killed plenty of defences which had to be remade so it was a semi failure. The second (I think) drop at main was a huge success. Bisu lost a few buildings and lots of units, plus he had to turn back with his army which was breaking of of the lurker containment. The drop which was intercepted by corsairs was a semi failure too, but once again Jaedong managed to unload at least some stuff and killed the robo among other things. Together, these drops did the job. Bisu did great harass, but he was sloppy with corsairs. He lost some of them too easy although I guess the game was tougher than usual too so we must give credit to Jaedong. On January 09 2008 06:57 Zalfor wrote: zerg mines minerals slower from each base, thus, later in the game, it is as if the zerg has more minerals than the protoss does. This is true. If zerg can hold on and be even up to when the toss main and nat dries out, he will be looking good. Games just don't go to this stage when Bisu plays usually. The plagues were awesome. | ||
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