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Russian Federation4333 Posts
BISU VS JAEDONG SPOILER!!! . . . . . . . . . . .
I finished watching the game between Bisu and Jaedong and I still cannot figure out how Jaedong managed to win the game especially in such a dominating fashion.
Let's recap the key events of the game: Bisu: Flawless sair/reaver/dt harass reminiscent of vs GGPlay in OSL. Safe expanding at 6 o'clock, min only, and eventually 10. Pumping ground army from unscratched 4 base econ. Denied Jaedong's 12 o'clock expand attempt twice.
Jaedong: Failed attack at 6. Failed drop at 6 with failed followup attack at 6. Semifailed drop at main. Sair intercepted drop at mined out nat doing little damage. Multible probing attempts to assault heavily defended min only resulting in heavy unit loss.
Looking at those event it is obvious that Bisu has the game in the bag. Jaedong wasted so many units from a battered econ. I was sure at that point that Bisu, anytime now, would roll out with his ground army and run over one of Jaedong's bases.
Then, Jaedong casts 2 perfectly placed swarms on Bisu's army . He follows up with an attack on 10 which failed (twice) although Jaedong took out cannons and many of Bisu's units. Jaedong also trapped a group of goons in between the attacks. After that, for no apparent reason, Bisu's army vanished. I will no forget the moment when Jaedong walks into Bisu's undefended 10 o'clock with 30-40 hydras and razes it to the ground. (Bisu JUST at the moment of his army's disappearance ran out of minerals at 6 and was running out at the min only). He GG ed moments after as Jaedong's swarm headed toward his min only.
Jaedong somehow... outmacroed Bisu, but with such inferior economy? Where was Bisu's army when 10 was getting overrun? I hope that more experienced forum members will shed light on how Jaedong was able to come back and win the game.
Was it the plagues that severely weakened Bisu's army? Was it the loss of those 2 gates during the main drop that hindered his macro? Was it the heavy goon investment or the double tech (dt+reaver) harass in the early game? Or did God come down from the heavens and stop that zeal/goon/ht just as he stopped those marines in Savior vs. Iris game 5 @ Araknoid?
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Video please?
Edit: Nvm I found it
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If i remember correctly, bisu lost almost all his corsairs to hydra, which allowed jaedong to seize map control and use drops. Having drop option enabled Jaedong to get agressive at multiple places and keep bisu on the defensive. (that was of the top of my head, everyone should watch this game a couple of times, PvZ is such a complex mu)
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On January 09 2008 06:15 il0seonpurpose wrote: Video please?
Video is on youtube.
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNg68U1liz0"]link[/url]
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Calgary25940 Posts
My post in Nony's thread:
I can't explain to myself how Jaedong even got ahead. Every little harassment that Bisu did netted an advantage. He was at even bases for the majority of the game with tons of workers. He invested a bit into static defense, but it traded with Jaedong's drop so that isn't an issue.
You say he lost because he didn't move out quick enough, and I agree, but I can't explain to myself why this happened. Typically Protoss is behind in bases, and he needs to mvoe out in order to prevent being outmacroed in the late game, but that didn't happen in this case. Jaedong didn't display any particularly game-breaking micro in any battle, so that wasn't it. I wouldn't imagine that Jaedong had better macro than Bisu, so I doubt Bisu was saving minerals. Bisu's army was a little Dragoon heavy, but not so much that it should cause him to lose.
Both players start even. The opening builds were even. Bisu killed a lot of workers with harassment (+BISU). They were even bases (+BISU). Jaedong had that midgame drop that killed a few Gatways and a few more units that it should have, but also had the drop on 6 that pretty much failed (+JAEDONG, +BISU).
How does Jaedong come out ahead? I didn't see the upgrades, but I doubt that was much of a factor. Is the terrain on the map imbalanced? I really am quite confused, Bisu had a huge army and Jaedong's army seemed to be dwindling in the midgame, and suddenly late game Bisu cannot keep up, despite being even based. If I'm Protoss and I'm even based with Zerg, and every time I do a harass I'm killing more than I'm losing, there should be no incentive for me to move out, I should only get farther ahead by turtling and harassing until Zerg decides to expand again. I can't explain to myself how this happened, I'll have to watch the VOD again.
Anways great commentary Nony; It taught me a lot of overarcing game concepts, as well as little things (why Jaedong buried the Dronse at his main but not his second expansion against Reaver drops). Thanks.
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Overall, Bisu was just sloppy with his army.
He lost quite a bit to the doom drop in his main, he just ran his zealots into a large hydra/lurker force.
The plagues got a ton of his army, and when hydras attacked his base at 10, a ton of goons just melted to the hydras under swarm. Bisu also lost a plagued group of zealots and HT's to a very small zerg army soon after.
At this point bisu's army is almost entirely goons, many are plagued. His late game unit choice wasn't good considering jaedong was using hydra/ling/lurker only and reavers probably would have been a lot stronger than goons.
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i really think defilers with plague on a maxed army is better than using ultras, as well as using drops. ultras are too costly unless u are outexpanding him by like 2 bases and have damaged him.
thats my opinion,
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I thought there was too little HTs in Bisu's army. When zerg likes drops, uses mostly hydra + some lurkers HTs are a must.
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hydra lurker contain even with hive, swarm, mass drop, plague, the future of zvp.
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
Yeah, I was suspecting that it was the plagues that doomed Bisu's main army. Those 2 plagues covered like 90% of it and after he lost the majority of it defending 10, he was just unable to rebuild an offensive force in time. The momentum swung dramatically into Jaedong favor after. Man I knew plagues are underused in PvZ! Now we just need queens ensnaring sair/shuttle to spell apsolute GG on the Bisu build.
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the thing is, when i was watching the game, it seemed like JaeDong played Zerg the right way.
zerg mines minerals slower from each base, thus, later in the game, it is as if the zerg has more minerals than the protoss does.
Also, JD had ~.5 bases more than Bisu throughout the game.
Bisu lost a small amount of units many times throughout the game. Like when he went with 12 zealots to JD's nat and razed the nat. Although the Hatch was gone, if JD survived to the late game, he would have more minerals because only the drones, not the minerals died.
So essentially, Bisu traded units for a temporary econ advantage that would be nullified in the late game. Killing drones is 50 minerals if u think about it from a whole game point of view.
Basically, to sum it up, Bisu killed drones, but JD had 5 hatches for the first part to repump drones and make units. For some reason, Bisu's army that whole game looked really small and i attribute that to his constant harass. Drops cost money. (which is what people keep failing to see). When JD survives to the late game, because of how Protoss mines, bisu's cash flow becomes really small because his minerals run out, while JD has a bunch of patches so that his minerals don't run out.
Lastly, Bisu had almost no archons, giving JD a good advantage with Zerglings.
Defilers are imba. Cracklings are imba.(which is why i'm switching to zerg)
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United States1653 Posts
I was honestly quite confused as well. I thought Bisu had the game in the bag, but then his army just... vanished after his first blob. Where did all his cash go?
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2 plagues almost got all of bisu's dragoons, then later on with swarms and hydras the dragoons melted away.. >_>
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On January 09 2008 06:49 Musli wrote: I thought there was too little HTs in Bisu's army. When zerg likes drops, uses mostly hydra + some lurkers HTs are a must. Agreed.
I just watched the game, and I have to say I think Bisu definitely wasn't playing his A-game here. There were a lot of holes in his macro, and his strat wasn't very effective as well. I don't know why he decided to go mass goons again (thinking back to GGPlay game), if he was planning a timing attack, his timing was WAY off. :/
I think the one of the main reasons Bisu lost was because despite doing constant harassment on Jaedong, he didn't really do any serious damage, and also despite Jaedong failing his drops on Bisu earlier in the match, his drop didn't even have that many units to consider Jaedong as behind. Bisu's harrassment didn't do a serious blow enough and the map didn't allow him a direct attack on Jaedongs base, so Jaedong was able to get his macro+hive tech going and dominate the game.
Basically, I think the main reason Bisu lost was in order for his strategy to work he has to deal a considerable amount of damage via harassment to the zerg before he gets his econ up, because the map doesn't allow the Protoss to just defeat the zerg with a massive Protoss ball of death. In other words, I think it was the map (and in part how Bisu hasn't adapted to it). Zerg definitely has the advantage here due to their mobility. Major props to Jaedong for how he handled all of Bisu's harass though.
And yeah, going back to Musli's quote, Storm would've seriously fucked up all those hydras.
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You say Bisu was ahead in eco, but in then end both had mined 4 bases dry. So they must've spent roughly the same amount of minerals. While Bisu didn't suffer much eco damage he took no advantage of his momentary income surpluss either.
I personally think his main army did too little for too long. It was awesome how he fought off so many attacks and raided so often with only a handful of units. But he had 2 groups of zeals and a group goons standing around for minutes. I guess he wanted to be safe, but in that case it was Jaedongs who was safe. The needle attacks just didn't do enough damage. And losing shuttles, reavers, templars and sairs doesn't help.
Of course the terrain didn't help Bisu. Open space is bad for toss as far as I'm concerned. On both maps he lost the PvZ win percentage is less than 40% I think. That's pretty sucky.
So, in no particular order: Terrain Lack of main force aggression Jaedong's macro skills Jaedong's defiler usage Bisu's army mix
I have seen Toss fall time and time again because they had too many goons. People need to learn that goons are really not all that awesome. A templar/zeal combo is better. Just run from the lurkers with speed zeals and storm them. Archons reach critical mass eventually. Oh well, Bisu played awesome in my opinion anyway. I think a best of 5 with more balanced maps it would be a pretty even fight. I would love to see that.
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On January 09 2008 06:56 TheTyranid wrote:Yeah, I was suspecting that it was the plagues that doomed Bisu's main army. Those 2 plagues covered like 90% of it and after he lost the majority of it defending 10, he was just unable to rebuild an offensive force in time. The momentum swung dramatically into Jaedong favor after. Man I knew plagues are underused in PvZ! Now we just need queens ensnaring sair/shuttle to spell apsolute GG on the Bisu build.
i think it was 3 plagues i could be wrong,
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I have absolutely no comment on this game. Because it was just out of my league. Wow Jaedong!
and the only thing I can say about people talking about Bisu's bad micro/terrain/losses/harassments, etc. It doesnt freaking matter.. NOTHING matters! it is Bisu against a ZERG!
Its like blaming the terrain on a game like Boxer vs a Zerg on boxer's prime... there is no excuse.
Jaedong is the man
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Why Jaedong buried the Dronse at his main but not his second expansion?
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I think the game was more Bisu losing than Jaedong doing anything really spectacular.
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I agree with provius post in that it seemed like Bisu had it. Meaby Bisu forgott for one crucial moment to produce units, but that is almost unthinkable. One thing that you have to have in mind is that Bisu build meny corsairs and cannons. Jaedong dident build meny sunkens and not even all that meny scourge on the other hand he had to produce some extra overlord. Jd mostly produce low tech - units throu the entire game. Very strange. I wish they give us the replays file it would probleby straight things out.
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One more thing more the map is balance ZvP but not for ZvT for does who blame the map for B defeat.
Map Balance With the statistics available to us we can see which maps were the most balanced this season, and which maps were the least. The formula I used to calculate this was simply to add the difference between each race's winning percentage and 50% together. The higher the difference of all three races added together, the more imbalanced the map was, and vice versa.
With that in mind, the most imbalanced maps of the season were:
3. Blue Storm - Blue Storm is fairly balanced in both TvP and PvZ, but unfortunately the ZvT balance is atrocious, with Zerg winning 13 of the 17 encouters on the map.
2. Un'goro Crater - Perhaps one of the most interesting maps this season, Un'goro crater falls short of a well-balanced map by allowing Terran to build in the middle of the map. This minor problem with the map creates major problems for Protoss, as a slow push is inevitable on the map.
1. Katrina - Katrina suffers from not one bad matchup, but two. Protoss dominates this map with a 74% win percentage against the other races. Terran has only managed to win one of it's first nine games against Protoss on the map, while Zerg has won less than half its games against Protoss.
http://teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=64735
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Well yeah, I meant Bisu's strat along with the map. Why goons? :/ Once your goon army is gone, you're pretty fucked because that's a lot of gas wasted, not to mention they get massacred by defiler/ling. Vs Hydra you have templars, but he didn't even make that many. The map doesn't allow goons to simply waltz in and start owning things and then flee; they have to walk very far distances to get anywhere, much like in Peaks.. and because of this, they can be easily flanked or countered.
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map balance is hard to call based on stats unless that map has a TON of games and also been in rotation for a long enough time.
Look at maps like Luna which is the standard macro fest balanced map and a map like Persona which is just ridiculous.
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Bisu doesn't like the map at all(reason why he lost vs GGplay methinks).
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Meh Bisu didn't capitalise on his advantage.
He should have been pushing out after Jaedong's first failed drop.
JD had 4 eco sources 10mins into the game and Bisu's passive harass style was always going to cause him problems in the late game.
The plagues helped JD immensely too. Bisu got stuck with a weak goon heavy army late in the game that was powerless against JD's defilers.
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
Yes, Bisu not pushing out in time (at all actually) wasthe greatest factor that cost him the game, along with the plagues and overinvesting in goons. This wasn't mentioned but I believe that Jaedong's ultraless unit mix worked brilliantly. I was shocked that he won after all those failed drops, but the again he was dropping hydralisks, which are cheap. The unit price allowed him to produce wave after wave of hydraling/lurk. This hydra heavy unit mix was reminiscent of the one in game 3 vs Stork although the game ended before he had defilers.
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On January 09 2008 08:08 TheTyranid wrote: Yes, Bisu not pushing out in time (at all actually) wasthe greatest factor that cost him the game, along with the plagues and overinvesting in goons. This wasn't mentioned but I believe that Jaedong's ultraless unit mix worked brilliantly. I was shocked that he won after all those failed drops, but the again he was dropping hydralisks, which are cheap. The unit price allowed him to produce wave after wave of hydraling/lurk. This hydra heavy unit mix was reminiscent of the one in game 3 vs Stork although the game ended before he had defilers.
i mentioned it i must be gosu. yeah jaedong played extremely well imo, EXTREMELY well. his multitask and unit positioning, and when to attack, where to attack, helped him win with cost-effective units as long as defilers are around.
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I don't have anything intelligent to add, but watching that game was like watching Savior play a non-Bisu protoss. He just won because he was destined to.
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On January 09 2008 06:46 tKd_ wrote: i really think defilers with plague on a maxed army is better than using ultras, as well as using drops. ultras are too costly unless u are outexpanding him by like 2 bases and have damaged him.
thats my opinion,
This is fairly true.
Bisu to me was not helped at all by his unit mix. regardless of your advantage dragoons are always a terrible or poor unit vs every Z unit except ultralisk.
The plagues + jaedongs unit mix really just owned bisu who also seemed to have some poor army control and some big losses in the late game.
The reason why it looked so bad for Bisu is because the big drop to his main that killed some gateways damaged his army + reduced his unit output and the plagues damaged his army, then Bisu lost quite a few zealots trying to do some guerilla shit.
His drops all game did a good job of controlling jaedong and the whole game i was thinking "wow ive never seen bisu play better than this" but in the end he got a little too wrapped up in his harassment and defending vs Jaedong and I think his lack of superior upgrades and a poor army were what did it
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Lets just call Jaedong the equivalent of iloveOOv in zerg terms (although I wouldn't extend that too his other games, normally his micro isn't bad), ridiculously good macro combined with sloppy micro. It seemed like Bisu's army was always puny, and it grew larger incredibly slowly. However, it seemed like every time Jaedong completely suicided its his massive army (which was about 5045834055435 times in this game) he already had it rebuilt and more. What I think we saw was the nature of zerg and protoss, zerg can just keep suiciding units to wear down the protoss, before crackling, hydralurk, and swarm finish the toss off. And as everyone else said, because of his insane hatchery count, he was able to keep his dronecount up, unlike the other zergs (cough cough Savior learn something cough cough) Bisu has raped with his build.
So Finally! A counter to the Bisu Build other than hydra all-in! 3 base-->mass hatch-->4base-->win
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Jaedong had many lurkers so Bisu made Dragoons. Then Jaedong stopped making so many lurkers and all Bisu had left was Dragoon vs hydra/ling. He had no gas to spend on templars because of corsair and reavers.
I liked the part where Bisu lost all of his probes to hydras during a transfer, I laughed.
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JD was a fricken DRONE FACTORY, his econ was barely damaged even though bisu killed so many drones cause he replaced them so fast!!
now i know why he built 3 extra hatches so fast in his expo, to replace drones from bisu's harass!!
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Good point, although I think Jaedong didn't have too many lurkers, just enough. I guess Bisu just thought he had many lurkers, so he went overboard on dragoons, but couldn't build the needed temps because Jaedong had already shut him down by then.
edit: so many hatches counters gosu harass huh? man i feel like playing right now
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The main thing I don't understand is after Jaedong used the burrow trick with the drones he stopped using it after a while, even when bisu did not have observers with his forces, I can understand for HT drops but he didn't burrow them when DT's and reavers showed up at his base.
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United States22883 Posts
I don't think Jaedong's #2 drop was truly a failure. It failed to accomplish his tactical goal (razing Bisu's gateways), but his 2-4 lurkers in the choke demolished Bisu's zealot count so he was still effectively hamstringing Bisu's army.
I just watched the game, and I have to say I think Bisu definitely wasn't playing his A-game here. There were a lot of holes in his macro, and his strat wasn't very effective as well. I don't know why he decided to go mass goons again (thinking back to GGPlay game), if he was planning a timing attack, his timing was WAY off. :/ I thought bisu played exceptionally well. His 6 and 9 oclock defense was amazing, his harass was as good as ever and he wasn't very clumsy at all throughout the game. This has nothing to do with a timing attack.
When he had the chance to move with his army, Jaedong delayed him with drops which gave him enough time to get defilers. Bisu only had too many goons after the lurkers ate up all his zealots.
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United States22883 Posts
On January 09 2008 08:47 garoth wrote: The main thing I don't understand is after Jaedong used the burrow trick with the drones he stopped using it after a while, even when bisu did not have observers with his forces, I can understand for HT drops but he didn't burrow them when DT's and reavers showed up at his base. First, Jaedong doesn't know Bisu doesn't have fast observers with him. He might reasonably assume by that point that Bisu had researched it. Second, Nony pointed out that you need a head start on a scarab shot to avoid it burrowed, or else the splash damage will pull them up.
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On January 09 2008 08:47 garoth wrote: The main thing I don't understand is after Jaedong used the burrow trick with the drones he stopped using it after a while, even when bisu did not have observers with his forces, I can understand for HT drops but he didn't burrow them when DT's and reavers showed up at his base.
I think that most zergs (including Jaedong) aren't very used to using burrow as a first instinct. Most players instinctively act to transfer them asap to another base. Burrow is mostly used when the P goes sair/reaver which Bisu did to an extent early game. It helps for scouting for the most part. Also, even if he burrowed, some of the splash would kill the drones near the hatch which the reaver would be targeting. "Usually" (and I use that term loosely) reavers don't do very much damage to running drones because of the stupid scarab AI. Most of the time that you see reavers raping min lines are when the opponent doesn't notice in time or too late (obviously there are times when the scarab acts correctly and you get a good splash). Back to my main point, I just don't think Jaedong familiar enough with burrow to do them as a first instinct action so he stuck with what he remembers which I guess was good enough for him. It's either fleeing right away or burrowing maybe a second or two late in which case Jaedong did the former.
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Ah, thanks alot I was not aware of the scarab splash damage pulling the drones up and I rarely see burrow in pro games so Jaedong not being used to it makes a great deal of sense, maybe we will start to see burrow as a counter to drops more often and he was using his "infolings" in this game a little bit too.
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On January 09 2008 08:55 Jibba wrote: This has nothing to do with a timing attack.
When he had the chance to move with his army, Jaedong delayed him with drops which gave him enough time to get defilers. Bisu only had too many goons after the lurkers ate up all his zealots. See that's the thing, if it wasn't a timing attack, I don't understand why he made so many damn Dragoons.. that was totally overboard and would only be effective if he was planning to do an all-in before defilers arrived.
edit@below post: hmm perhaps, gotta watch it again, but imo he should've made more temps and less goons with his gas, especially considering the amount of hydras being used
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United States22883 Posts
On January 09 2008 09:09 noobienoob wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2008 08:55 Jibba wrote: This has nothing to do with a timing attack.
When he had the chance to move with his army, Jaedong delayed him with drops which gave him enough time to get defilers. Bisu only had too many goons after the lurkers ate up all his zealots. See that's the thing, if it wasn't a timing attack, I don't understand why he made so many damn Dragoons.. that was totally overboard and would only be effective if he was planning to do an all-in before defilers arrived. He sacrificed a bunch of zealots to take down a hatchery, which may have been a mistake. When they cut to his army in the middle, he actually had a majority of zealots. I think the lurkers just destroyed them.
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Strange game indeed. I can't see any aspect of game where J was better than B. He was loosing all game and than won. Strange game... All in all, now, there is no man to stop One and Only, Savior!
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I think bisu made alot of dragoons because he was expecting ultras?
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BEST GAME I'VE SEEN IN MY LIFE
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Jaedong FUCKING LEGEND!!! OMG OMG OMG.... YOu have NO idea how much excitement... shit. That thing's two people brawling to the nails man! Look at the scourge save, the hell impossible shits happening all over the game and that's so amazing!! In early game BISU was persisting in harassment but can you see how many hydras Jaedong still had? He had fuckton hydra stilll, he had macro up still so powerful. After Jaedong's failed drop at 6 o clock, it seems like he is screwed, but Bisu wasn't able to expand fast enough and his things went dry. That last base trade was a critical moment which bisu lost. And listen to the fan girls... they can't believe it. Oh my goodness...
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Don't over analyze Bisu's faults, he played very well and would have raped any other Zerg. The thing that surprised me was that Jeadong always managed to keep a decent number of drones despite all the harasses. He must have paid very close attention to his drone count.
In early game his extra 4th hatch was the key to his macro and the build fitted well with Bisu's heavy harassing & safe expanding play. It would have failed against a Toss that FE then mass attacks IMO.
On January 09 2008 07:27 ReiKo wrote: Why Jaedong buried the Dronse at his main but not his second expansion? He was afraid that Bisu might have had observers there.
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that was the best pvz/zvp game I've ever seen in my life...
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The harassment didn't do that much damage considering how many corsairs/shuttles/templar he used. Bisu could never build a convincingly large enough army to take on Jaedong's army head-on. Jaedong had a relatively large drone count the entire game while macroing incredibly well, constantly replacing drones, overlords, and units. Plague pretty much weakens a protoss army by a factor of 3 or so, since units have more hp and armor upgrades.
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Live2Win
United States6657 Posts
They were talking about this game during game 4, and one of the commentators asked JaeDong and July (they were talking about it I guess) exactly what Bisu did wrong that made him lose, and this is what he said they told him.
1.) First thing they pointed out was that Bisu lost too many zealots from the one successful drop JaeDong delivered.
2.) When Bisu was ahead in economy and successfully harrassed JaeDong multiple times, he failed to deliver the finishing blow.
Here are few things I'd like to add:
3.) Corsairs. His usage of corsairs were great when he was doing the corsair/reaver harrassments, but at one point he lost almost all of them. But with 2 stargates, Bisu rebuilt his corsair army again quickly. A large part of the economy advantage he gave himself were lost in rebuilding that army. Corsairs are pretty gas expensive and takes a good bit of minerals too, so rebuilding a corsair army, which he did twice (he did it again to defend against the drops) means investing a large sum of minerals/gas.
4.) Attack timing and expansion timing. This relates to #2. Bisu successfully harrassed JD with reavers and templars, but with the minerals and gas he massed up during the harrassment, he spent on ANOTHER expo rather than a huge army. He should have spent the money on a massive army, overcome JaeDong's army in battle and expand while he moves out.
Instead he spent minerals on a nexus and cannons (and another fleet of corsairs), and delayed his attack timing. This "delayed timing" gave JaeDong the time to re-establish his economy and regroup himself.
5.) Continuing from point 4, Bisu should STILL have a sizeable army to overcome JaeDong's, but that's where the plagues came into play, followed by the successful drop. When it should have been Bisu's time to bust out like army like Spartans, JaeDong landed a few extremely well placed plagues, and successfully dropped Bisu, which forced Bisu back and due to his loss of concentration (or w/e), Bisu lost a lot more units than he should have (which was point 1).
To SUM IT UP:
Bisu did very will with harrassments. He did very well with defensing bases.
But he lost almost all the "big" battles.
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Just watched the game. For what it's worth, here are my thoughts:
1. Jaedong anticipated Bisu's FE, and expanded to his min only early on. After pumping several lings, he also grabbed a third gas.
2. Jaedong anticipated Bisu's sair/reaver build and researched burrow. He didn't burrow his drones all the time, but he did enough so that he actually lost very few drones. Because of that, there wasn't much point in Bisu continuing the sair/reaver harrass.
3. Because his sair/reaver harras wasn't working well, Bisu decided to expand instead. In the games I've seen him play against Savior, DTs and reavers works to keep Savior's drone count low, corsairs work to keep the overlords bunched up around the hydras, and the moment Savior goes for an attack, he's punished by having corsairs cut down his overlords, followed shortly by a massive land army invasion. If I remember correctly, this happens before Bisu even sets up his third base. But I think in this case, he was spending a lot of cash on his expo and his cannons.
4. Then Jaedong drops the 6 expo and does very little damage, but the threat of the drop has forced Bisu to keep two reavers and a high templar in there to defend. Coupled with Jaedong's relatively undamaged economy, that's puts Bisu at a disadvantage. Without the continued reaver harrass, Jaedong's army grows to epic proportions. He can afford hydras to defend his overlords, while the resources Bisu could have used to pump up his army have gone into securing his expansion. Throughout the game, Bisu only had one shuttle in the air at a time. I think Jaedong realised the advanteg he had. He kept doing small attacks at 6 and never really took a huge amount of damage in relation to his total army size. But he forced Bisu to keep those templar and reavers that would otherwise be used for harrass in there.
5. By this stage, I think it was impossible to continue harrassing overlords. Jaedong's bases were well defended with hydras. Bisu's probably thought his best bet would have been to move out with a land army, which he did. However, when Bisu squares off against Savior (if it gets to this point at all), his harrass will have kept Savior's economy so weak that his land army will be able to walk all over him. In this case, Jaedong's army was big enough to hold its own.
6. Even then Bisu might have won with the help of some storms, but Jaedong was smart enough to use small attacks to keep Bisu's army pinned in place while using his main force to attack elsewhere. The drop in Bisu's main and the drop at his nat are good examples. In the late game, everytime the commentators were talking about a minor battle (usually at 9, I think), there'd be a bunch of hydras slithering all over some other part of Bisu's base.
7. And, of course, defiler usage was just the icing on the cake.
And to do a bit of crystal ball gazing, since it is the start fo the new year, Bisu might start losing to zergs a little more frequently now, as this game is sure to be analysed to death by every zerg out there.
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United States1653 Posts
On January 09 2008 09:22 ray1234 wrote: I think bisu made alot of dragoons because he was expecting ultras?
I was thinking this as well- maybe Bisu started pumping Dragoons in anticipation of the Ultralisks that never came.
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But why so many goons (and without reaver support)? The correct counter to ultraling/lurk/defiler is zealot/temp/archon + reaver mixed with a small amount of goons. This is what he usually moves out and finishes the game with in most PvZ's when it reaches mid-late game.
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I am glad all the Jaedong fanboys aren't like "OMG JAEDONG IS ANSWER TO BEESUIT PVZ - JAEDONG > BISU EZ GGNORE"
Much respect
Had Bisu been beaten like the Jaedong vs Stork series, I would concede that Jaedong > Bisu. The fact is, however, Bisu gave Jaedong a hell of a time that game and would never give an easy game to any zerg. Especially since it was on Blue Storm, I predict Bisu would've won a 3-2 bo5 vs Jaedong. Zergs are definitely finding answers to the Bisu build, but there's no full counter yet. And again, thanks to the Jaedong fans who see the challenge that Bisu still brought upon Jaedong. But a GG indeed
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United States10774 Posts
The biggest factor I felt cost Bisu the game was the timing. He didn't finish JD off when he could have and eventually lost the game.
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On January 09 2008 10:39 Seraphim wrote:I am glad all the Jaedong fanboys aren't like "OMG JAEDONG IS ANSWER TO BEESUIT PVZ - JAEDONG > BISU EZ GGNORE" Much respect Had Bisu been beaten like the Jaedong vs Stork series, I would concede that Jaedong > Bisu. The fact is, however, Bisu gave Jaedong a hell of a time that game and would never give an easy game to any zerg. Especially since it was on Blue Storm, I predict Bisu would've won a 3-2 bo5 vs Jaedong. Zergs are definitely finding answers to the Bisu build, but there's no full counter yet. And again, thanks to the Jaedong fans who see the challenge that Bisu still brought upon Jaedong. But a GG indeed
wtf u talkin' bout it wuz 1 sided rape kkeekekekekekekekek. + Show Spoiler +Just kidding, it was one hell of a game, I felt that Jaedong had the win clinched, but then I remembered Bisu vs sAviOr game 2, and realized that the win is never clinched against Bisu. It was a nailbiter :p
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On January 09 2008 10:32 teamsolid wrote: But why so many goons (and without reaver support)? The correct counter to ultraling/lurk/defiler is zealot/temp/archon + reaver mixed with a small amount of goons. This is what he usually moves out and finishes the game with in most PvZ's when it reaches mid-late game. goon heavy armies also do well against ultra ling, especially since they were on an even economic footing. he was playing a goon based army because jaedong was using hydra/lurk, which rapes zeal/archon but gets raped by goon+temp. i guess he didnt anticipate the addition of defilers, which seems really retarded considering who he was playing. he also didnt storm very effectively, multiple battles just ended up hydra lurk vs goon zeal with a few temps sitting idly in the back. bisu just didnt seem very sharp in general after his harass died down.
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On January 09 2008 10:57 IdrA wrote: he also didnt storm very effectively, multiple battles just ended up hydra lurk vs goon zeal with a few temps sitting idly in the back. bisu just didnt seem very sharp in general after his harass died down.
Probably because he isn't used to playing against a zeg after his harrass has failed anymore. Most of the time he has such an advantage he'd have to have a broken wrist to lose.
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I thought bisu was relying too much on harrass than cutting down jaedong's main army. how many times did bisu actually come out to centre to fight in centre in the game? I should watch the game again to really tell, but I thought it was just two times (1st being when he got double plague'ed, and 2nd being at the very last part before he typed gg cuz he knew it was over) (the one where he ran in all those zealots with templar shuttle was just another type of harrassment)
I watched all those drops, did some damage, sure, but at the same time, jaedong didnt stop massing up his army.. and after first couple drops, the templar in shutle didnt do so much damage. sure, the drops looked like a real show to give for a MSL match, but seriously, bit too much. I was pretty sure by the 5th or 6th drop, bisu was thinking he won the match and wanted to fuk around with jaedong. if he does and win, then everyone would be like "wow stork sucks so much, bisu would have 3-0'ed jaedong np"
so to sum it up, bisu tried to have too much fun, and just played bit too passive imo with too many drops.. most importantly, i think i saw more storms on drones than on jaedong's units.. bisu couldnt reduce jaedong's army. jaedong only lost his army by doing a stupid drop on 6, which I thought he should have went past the cannons and go for either main or nat (he coulda done way more damage, but jaedong did go past the cannons second drop)
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On January 09 2008 11:05 The Storyteller wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2008 10:57 IdrA wrote: he also didnt storm very effectively, multiple battles just ended up hydra lurk vs goon zeal with a few temps sitting idly in the back. bisu just didnt seem very sharp in general after his harass died down. Probably because he isn't used to playing against a zeg after his harrass has failed anymore. Most of the time he has such an advantage he'd have to have a broken wrist to lose. Yeah that's exactly what I was thinking; his early game was top notch, but I felt his late game was lacking due to the fact that Jaedong wasn't as crippled as he expected. It was like Bisu's decision making went up in the air after that.
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On January 09 2008 11:05 The Storyteller wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2008 10:57 IdrA wrote: he also didnt storm very effectively, multiple battles just ended up hydra lurk vs goon zeal with a few temps sitting idly in the back. bisu just didnt seem very sharp in general after his harass died down. Probably because he isn't used to playing against a zeg after his harrass has failed anymore. Most of the time he has such an advantage he'd have to have a broken wrist to lose. ya, was kinda wondering what would happen when we found a zerg who could keep up with his multitasking, hope they meet again in a series on a bigger stage.
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First, Jaedong played well early game being greedy with drones. But other zergs have done that and they still failed...
The drops he made were not failures all in all. The first one at six didn't do that much dmg but he managed to unload all and killed plenty of defences which had to be remade so it was a semi failure.
The second (I think) drop at main was a huge success. Bisu lost a few buildings and lots of units, plus he had to turn back with his army which was breaking of of the lurker containment.
The drop which was intercepted by corsairs was a semi failure too, but once again Jaedong managed to unload at least some stuff and killed the robo among other things. Together, these drops did the job.
Bisu did great harass, but he was sloppy with corsairs. He lost some of them too easy although I guess the game was tougher than usual too so we must give credit to Jaedong.
On January 09 2008 06:57 Zalfor wrote: zerg mines minerals slower from each base, thus, later in the game, it is as if the zerg has more minerals than the protoss does.
This is true. If zerg can hold on and be even up to when the toss main and nat dries out, he will be looking good. Games just don't go to this stage when Bisu plays usually.
The plagues were awesome.
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United States22883 Posts
On January 09 2008 10:39 Seraphim wrote:I am glad all the Jaedong fanboys aren't like "OMG JAEDONG IS ANSWER TO BEESUIT PVZ - JAEDONG > BISU EZ GGNORE" Much respect Had Bisu been beaten like the Jaedong vs Stork series, I would concede that Jaedong > Bisu. The fact is, however, Bisu gave Jaedong a hell of a time that game and would never give an easy game to any zerg. Especially since it was on Blue Storm, I predict Bisu would've won a 3-2 bo5 vs Jaedong. Zergs are definitely finding answers to the Bisu build, but there's no full counter yet. And again, thanks to the Jaedong fans who see the challenge that Bisu still brought upon Jaedong. But a GG indeed Yeah, we'll just have to wait until the later rounds to see a bo5 between Bisu and Jaedong so we can declare a true winner. OH WAIT!!!
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where is Nory's thread???
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On January 09 2008 11:52 Exteray wrote: where is Nory's thread???
It's under his blog.
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where is nory's blog? lol
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On January 09 2008 10:41 OneOther wrote: The biggest factor I felt cost Bisu the game was the timing. He didn't finish JD off when he could have and eventually lost the game. lurker egg block ^_^
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im probably biased, but i thought the lurker egg block was pretty gay :O
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it's b/c you play p
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Oh, I savored the moment when bisu gg'd. <3 you Jaedong.
Tbh, I think Bisu's tactics are too reliant on the success of his harass. He couldn't effectively harass Jaedong effectively, and Jaedong, pulling out some sick plagues & macro, pulled through. His economy was never really damaged, but his harass tactics were quite useless against a Jaedong's 300 hatcheries.
I always thought of bisu as the 'pussy toss'
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i dont think zerg is weaker with less expos. I have seen several replays where july is just matching the protoss in bases, and giving them a hard time.
What i noticed however is that July had a pretty large number of drones. Though having more bases would certainly increase the mining effect of the drones, its not necessarily a rule that a zerg must keep x1.5~2 the amount of protoss bases to fight evenly.
I guess Bisu spent a lot on cannons and dragoon anticipating an eventual ultra/ling that never came. He probably did need more storms to makes his army more cost efficient. Zerg units are cheaper and I guess when both had mined about the same amount in total, Jaedong just turnt out to win.
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the problem (which happens a shit load in PvZ) is Bisu didn't kill Jaedong after all of that harrass and eventually when Jaedong got his drones back up, every single base of his was still full of minerals where as Bisu was running dry. Not only that but Bisu unfortunately wasted a good portion of units late game simply due to bad control.
Jaedong went macro heavy from the get go and loosing 10 drones at an expo every minute or 2 when you have 35 more isn't that big of a deal especially when you replenish your drone count as well as Jaedong did. Jaedong reproduced drones well and didn't loose too many overlords. Least not enough to really make Bisu's investment into corsairs a great cost. It probably came out 50/50. When it was all done and said for and after all of the harass was done. Jaedong had a bigger ground army and won.
If you guys wonder how this could happen. It's because Jaedong macro'd very nicely and him (along with Bisu's build) forced a lot of canons from Bisu. Think about it, Bisu spent A LOT of money on Cannons at 6 and although they killed a fairly large force. Bisu then rebuild all of the canons. Count the $ it costed for all of that. After all of the canons, corsairs and reavers, when the time came to start making a game winning force, his bases were running out of minerals and Jaedong's were healthy. After Bisu's initial force was killed he simply didn't have enough money to rebuild. I can't say it enough, Jaedong did a fantastic job replenishing drones. Add in some nice harassment with Lurkers, Drops, Plague and most importantly, making sure he had a larger ground army to deny any expansions at 10 and 12 and you have a very nice counter to Bisu build. Well played by both and it was a very close game. A few things different and it could have gone the other way. GG~
Overall, Bisu played his game and Jaedong beat it. Props~
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there were several battles in which bisu came behind, i think the accumulated damage cost him the game eventually:
1 losing almost all of his corsairs to hydras
2 a mass zealot attack to JD's nat, that was like 10+ zealots that killed a hatchery then died to mass hydras, it wasn't worth it
3 when JD dropped bisu's nat with a small force and used a lurker egg to stop his zealots, that cost bisu his robo, core, and some other shit while JD lost not much
4 JD's mass drop at bisu main, bisu microed very poorly there, losing 3-4 observers, a ton of zealots and a few goons to lurkers, and a few gates and pylons
5 JD's dual plague which raped bisu's army, then bisu wasted most of those plagued units over the following few minutes
6 earlier in the game, JD's drop and following attack at the 6 exp, it didn't kill the exp but it forced bisu to rebuild a ton of cannons and reinforce there, only to have those reinforcement units not be used for the rest of the game. You can see near the end how he tries to join those reaver/temp with his main army but fails due to JD's map control.
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I think the key to this game was the extra hatcheries JD put up in the beginning at the mineral only expo, it was because of this that he had the larva to up his drone count as soon as they were taken out and STILL have enough larva to pump military units. The extra larva allowed him to keep up the drone count up even after bisu continually dropped and stormed his worker lines, that I think was one of the keys to this game.
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On January 09 2008 13:27 garoth wrote: I think the key to this game was the extra hatcheries JD put up in the beginning at the mineral only expo it was because of this that he had the larva the up his drone count as soon as they were taken out and STILL have enough larva to pump military units. The extra larva allowed him to keep up the drone count even after bisu continually dropped and stormed his worker lines, that I think was one of the keys to this game. I agree. And bisu was losing a LOT on his drops.... the cost of 2 templar + shuttle is a lot more than a few drones. And when jaedong can make more drones quickly, the small loss in mining time really makes that kind of harass questionable.
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On January 09 2008 09:27 evanthebouncy! wrote: BEST GAME I'VE SEEN IN MY LIFE
For a moment I actually thought I agree to this post but then I remembered better games. Still that game was top.
I think Bisu was 1 step away from having the game but at the moment Bisu reached his hand for the cookies Jaedong mass-dropped his base and turned things over with a single strike. After that the game was (nearly?) equal so the better player would win. It turned out Bisu hadn't prepared well enough against permanent harass so he lost the game, yet not convincingly enough to say Jaedong outplayed him. It was a very hard fight for both of them.
Bisu clearly lacked army-management at some points. His defensive micro wasn't good enough and he built too many dragoons.
I think the game-deciding strike was when Jaedong had placed 2 lurkers behind Bisu's min-only (again?). In that time Bisu couldn't grow an army to save his upper left expansion.
All in all I think they both presented their own game of pure harassment. They both had their chance to gain an advantage and they both succeeded. But Jaedong had the last word.
Definitely a must-see!
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I think the timing element was crucial. Bisu was spanking JD pretty hard early game. However when the time came to turn that drone-killing and OL-slaughtering into a more concrete advantage, he failed, partly thanks to JD's perfectly timed doom drop in Bisu's main @ the gateways. Losing the corsairs allowed that to happen.
He needed to take the Protoss Army of Doooom and run over the bottom right expo. That expo kept JD in the game for so long.
Also, his unit composition, what was up with those mass dragoons? They became a huge liability as soon as defilers hit the scene, the time when 20 dragoons and cannons are shooting furiously but uselessly at a single hydralisk on the edge of a dark swarm at the 10 o clock expo was golden
More arch/reaver/DT I think would have sealed the fate when he tried to move out, they are much more immune to plague and DS.
Also, this game showed how game-breaking mass upgraded zerg basic units are and how ridiculously useful defilers are in ZvP, maybe its time to start adding a DA to the army for feedback? After all it costs 2 DTs and no research, 50 mana...
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In short:
- Harass doesn't work as well when Jaedong rebuilds drones. - Bisu lost too many units in the real battles. - Defilers. Replace Defilers with Ultras in the endgame, and Jaedon would have been mauled.
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i could not tell the upgrades from the youtube vid, but did bisu only have one forge, not even spinning at the end of the game while JD had 3 evos?
3-0-0 protoss ground force melt pretty ugly against 3-3-3 zerg hydra/crack, especially when there are moments of pure unit-clashing without any psi support as there were in this game
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let us not forget that bisu spent 1/4 of his mins on cannons, 1/4 on sairs while jaedong didnt even have a single sunken. since bisu only spent 1/2 of his cash on ground army and protoss units cost ~2x that of zerg, this make jaedong's army alot bigger.
also jaedong attacked each time with a critical mass of units at 1 location while bisu had to spread his cannons to defend every base.
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the base with the ~5 hatch (the one right next to nat) was untouched, which i think was where bisu should have attacked, instead of the natural, because jd was reproducing units like a nut, had he destroyed this base then jd would have still had hatches around the map, but units wouldn't be together and would require regrouping
he also lost a lot of dragoons for nor eason at all
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It's not like Bisu hasn't lost a late late game PvZ before, he lost similarily on HH against Savior. Anyways, I think he just didn't go A-click soon enough, but I also think perhaps he was waiting for Jaedong to do that drop? And the whole thing about having too many goons, he was fine up until he wasted all his zeals on the attack on that nat, if he had brought his entire army he might have won.
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United States1653 Posts
The game that Savior won didn't have as big of a margin in units as Jaedong's win though. I remember Savior barely had any units that game while Jaedong probably had about 30 or so Hydralisks.
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1. Losing sairs 2. Not having enough HT 3. Losing tons of observers(gas loss) 4. PLAGUUUUU 5. Upgrades 6. Overprotecting 6
Insane game, and very exciting. *Jumps on the DongWagon*
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It would have helped Bisu alot with his defences, if he had moved the Reaver and the 2 hts he had at the dry/next to dry 6expansion to his 11 Expo. With them there he would probably been able to hold the 11 expo and then go on winning the game? or am I way off?
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It seemed to me that Bisu focused too much on playing safe - securing expos, cannons, camping units at expos...
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he missed the timing attack...
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
On January 10 2008 14:37 IaniAniaN wrote: It's not like Bisu hasn't lost a late late game PvZ before, he lost similarily on HH against Savior. Anyways, I think he just didn't go A-click soon enough, but I also think perhaps he was waiting for Jaedong to do that drop? And the whole thing about having too many goons, he was fine up until he wasted all his zeals on the attack on that nat, if he had brought his entire army he might have won.
On January 10 2008 16:30 SigrUn wrote: The game that Savior won didn't have as big of a margin in units as Jaedong's win though. I remember Savior barely had any units that game while Jaedong probably had about 30 or so Hydralisks. Exactly. The real shocker was that Jaedong had about 30-40 hydras razing a defenceless expo of Bisu. I even bolded that in the OP. Savior just had a slight edge (couple of guards shooting up an expo + barely defending a sair/reaver drop).
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I really hope Bisu comes back stronger. Remember, he is a very young player and has to learn about defeat and how others before him (Ra, Nada etc) have dealt with it.
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I think a key factor to Bisu's build that has given him the advantage in many of his previous games was his early sair harassments with drops of any kind (reaver, dt, ht) and Jaedong did an excellent job of preventing this by building the early spire and then getting scourges (he also did this against Stork). This delayed Bisu from effectively harassing and exploring until he had enough sairs to obtain air dominance but by the time he did Jaedong had sufficient hydras to take minimal damage and actually ended up killing many of Bisu's sairs. Another important thing to take note of is that although Bisu had a few successful drops in the mid-game, he was never really on the offensive. Jaedong on the other hand, was for the most part free to roam the map as he pleased, even though he did struggle to get up any new expansions or destroy any of Bisu's. Jaedong's control over the map could be largely attributed to the huge amount of resources that Bisu put into replacing his lost sairs and building large numbers of base defenses while Jaedong built practically none.
I am definitely looking towards future matches between these two brilliant players and am also curious to see how much playing on a different map would change things.
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For those who say "It's not Jaedong wins, it's bisu loss" Well I think that's just bullshit because many people were saying "It's not bisu wins, it's savior loss" when bisu stomped savior. As badly as bisu could've played, and he played very finely, it was a Jaedong's hard earned dough, it is his win.
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On January 10 2008 13:15 liosama wrote: the base with the ~5 hatch (the one right next to nat) was untouched, which i think was where bisu should have attacked, instead of the natural, because jd was reproducing units like a nut, had he destroyed this base then jd would have still had hatches around the map, but units wouldn't be together and would require regrouping
he also lost a lot of dragoons for nor eason at all clever... i'll use that in my games.
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