|
One more thing more the map is balance ZvP but not for ZvT for does who blame the map for B defeat.
Map Balance With the statistics available to us we can see which maps were the most balanced this season, and which maps were the least. The formula I used to calculate this was simply to add the difference between each race's winning percentage and 50% together. The higher the difference of all three races added together, the more imbalanced the map was, and vice versa.
With that in mind, the most imbalanced maps of the season were:
3. Blue Storm - Blue Storm is fairly balanced in both TvP and PvZ, but unfortunately the ZvT balance is atrocious, with Zerg winning 13 of the 17 encouters on the map.
2. Un'goro Crater - Perhaps one of the most interesting maps this season, Un'goro crater falls short of a well-balanced map by allowing Terran to build in the middle of the map. This minor problem with the map creates major problems for Protoss, as a slow push is inevitable on the map.
1. Katrina - Katrina suffers from not one bad matchup, but two. Protoss dominates this map with a 74% win percentage against the other races. Terran has only managed to win one of it's first nine games against Protoss on the map, while Zerg has won less than half its games against Protoss.
http://teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=64735
|
Well yeah, I meant Bisu's strat along with the map. Why goons? :/ Once your goon army is gone, you're pretty fucked because that's a lot of gas wasted, not to mention they get massacred by defiler/ling. Vs Hydra you have templars, but he didn't even make that many. The map doesn't allow goons to simply waltz in and start owning things and then flee; they have to walk very far distances to get anywhere, much like in Peaks.. and because of this, they can be easily flanked or countered.
|
map balance is hard to call based on stats unless that map has a TON of games and also been in rotation for a long enough time.
Look at maps like Luna which is the standard macro fest balanced map and a map like Persona which is just ridiculous.
|
Bisu doesn't like the map at all(reason why he lost vs GGplay methinks).
|
Meh Bisu didn't capitalise on his advantage.
He should have been pushing out after Jaedong's first failed drop.
JD had 4 eco sources 10mins into the game and Bisu's passive harass style was always going to cause him problems in the late game.
The plagues helped JD immensely too. Bisu got stuck with a weak goon heavy army late in the game that was powerless against JD's defilers.
|
Russian Federation4333 Posts
Yes, Bisu not pushing out in time (at all actually) wasthe greatest factor that cost him the game, along with the plagues and overinvesting in goons. This wasn't mentioned but I believe that Jaedong's ultraless unit mix worked brilliantly. I was shocked that he won after all those failed drops, but the again he was dropping hydralisks, which are cheap. The unit price allowed him to produce wave after wave of hydraling/lurk. This hydra heavy unit mix was reminiscent of the one in game 3 vs Stork although the game ended before he had defilers.
|
On January 09 2008 08:08 TheTyranid wrote: Yes, Bisu not pushing out in time (at all actually) wasthe greatest factor that cost him the game, along with the plagues and overinvesting in goons. This wasn't mentioned but I believe that Jaedong's ultraless unit mix worked brilliantly. I was shocked that he won after all those failed drops, but the again he was dropping hydralisks, which are cheap. The unit price allowed him to produce wave after wave of hydraling/lurk. This hydra heavy unit mix was reminiscent of the one in game 3 vs Stork although the game ended before he had defilers.
i mentioned it i must be gosu. yeah jaedong played extremely well imo, EXTREMELY well. his multitask and unit positioning, and when to attack, where to attack, helped him win with cost-effective units as long as defilers are around.
|
I don't have anything intelligent to add, but watching that game was like watching Savior play a non-Bisu protoss. He just won because he was destined to.
|
On January 09 2008 06:46 tKd_ wrote: i really think defilers with plague on a maxed army is better than using ultras, as well as using drops. ultras are too costly unless u are outexpanding him by like 2 bases and have damaged him.
thats my opinion,
This is fairly true.
Bisu to me was not helped at all by his unit mix. regardless of your advantage dragoons are always a terrible or poor unit vs every Z unit except ultralisk.
The plagues + jaedongs unit mix really just owned bisu who also seemed to have some poor army control and some big losses in the late game.
The reason why it looked so bad for Bisu is because the big drop to his main that killed some gateways damaged his army + reduced his unit output and the plagues damaged his army, then Bisu lost quite a few zealots trying to do some guerilla shit.
His drops all game did a good job of controlling jaedong and the whole game i was thinking "wow ive never seen bisu play better than this" but in the end he got a little too wrapped up in his harassment and defending vs Jaedong and I think his lack of superior upgrades and a poor army were what did it
|
Lets just call Jaedong the equivalent of iloveOOv in zerg terms (although I wouldn't extend that too his other games, normally his micro isn't bad), ridiculously good macro combined with sloppy micro. It seemed like Bisu's army was always puny, and it grew larger incredibly slowly. However, it seemed like every time Jaedong completely suicided its his massive army (which was about 5045834055435 times in this game) he already had it rebuilt and more. What I think we saw was the nature of zerg and protoss, zerg can just keep suiciding units to wear down the protoss, before crackling, hydralurk, and swarm finish the toss off. And as everyone else said, because of his insane hatchery count, he was able to keep his dronecount up, unlike the other zergs (cough cough Savior learn something cough cough) Bisu has raped with his build.
So Finally! A counter to the Bisu Build other than hydra all-in! 3 base-->mass hatch-->4base-->win
|
Jaedong had many lurkers so Bisu made Dragoons. Then Jaedong stopped making so many lurkers and all Bisu had left was Dragoon vs hydra/ling. He had no gas to spend on templars because of corsair and reavers.
I liked the part where Bisu lost all of his probes to hydras during a transfer, I laughed.
|
JD was a fricken DRONE FACTORY, his econ was barely damaged even though bisu killed so many drones cause he replaced them so fast!!
now i know why he built 3 extra hatches so fast in his expo, to replace drones from bisu's harass!!
|
Good point, although I think Jaedong didn't have too many lurkers, just enough. I guess Bisu just thought he had many lurkers, so he went overboard on dragoons, but couldn't build the needed temps because Jaedong had already shut him down by then.
edit: so many hatches counters gosu harass huh? man i feel like playing right now
|
The main thing I don't understand is after Jaedong used the burrow trick with the drones he stopped using it after a while, even when bisu did not have observers with his forces, I can understand for HT drops but he didn't burrow them when DT's and reavers showed up at his base.
|
United States22883 Posts
I don't think Jaedong's #2 drop was truly a failure. It failed to accomplish his tactical goal (razing Bisu's gateways), but his 2-4 lurkers in the choke demolished Bisu's zealot count so he was still effectively hamstringing Bisu's army.
I just watched the game, and I have to say I think Bisu definitely wasn't playing his A-game here. There were a lot of holes in his macro, and his strat wasn't very effective as well. I don't know why he decided to go mass goons again (thinking back to GGPlay game), if he was planning a timing attack, his timing was WAY off. :/ I thought bisu played exceptionally well. His 6 and 9 oclock defense was amazing, his harass was as good as ever and he wasn't very clumsy at all throughout the game. This has nothing to do with a timing attack.
When he had the chance to move with his army, Jaedong delayed him with drops which gave him enough time to get defilers. Bisu only had too many goons after the lurkers ate up all his zealots.
|
United States22883 Posts
On January 09 2008 08:47 garoth wrote: The main thing I don't understand is after Jaedong used the burrow trick with the drones he stopped using it after a while, even when bisu did not have observers with his forces, I can understand for HT drops but he didn't burrow them when DT's and reavers showed up at his base. First, Jaedong doesn't know Bisu doesn't have fast observers with him. He might reasonably assume by that point that Bisu had researched it. Second, Nony pointed out that you need a head start on a scarab shot to avoid it burrowed, or else the splash damage will pull them up.
|
On January 09 2008 08:47 garoth wrote: The main thing I don't understand is after Jaedong used the burrow trick with the drones he stopped using it after a while, even when bisu did not have observers with his forces, I can understand for HT drops but he didn't burrow them when DT's and reavers showed up at his base.
I think that most zergs (including Jaedong) aren't very used to using burrow as a first instinct. Most players instinctively act to transfer them asap to another base. Burrow is mostly used when the P goes sair/reaver which Bisu did to an extent early game. It helps for scouting for the most part. Also, even if he burrowed, some of the splash would kill the drones near the hatch which the reaver would be targeting. "Usually" (and I use that term loosely) reavers don't do very much damage to running drones because of the stupid scarab AI. Most of the time that you see reavers raping min lines are when the opponent doesn't notice in time or too late (obviously there are times when the scarab acts correctly and you get a good splash). Back to my main point, I just don't think Jaedong familiar enough with burrow to do them as a first instinct action so he stuck with what he remembers which I guess was good enough for him. It's either fleeing right away or burrowing maybe a second or two late in which case Jaedong did the former.
|
Ah, thanks alot I was not aware of the scarab splash damage pulling the drones up and I rarely see burrow in pro games so Jaedong not being used to it makes a great deal of sense, maybe we will start to see burrow as a counter to drops more often and he was using his "infolings" in this game a little bit too.
|
On January 09 2008 08:55 Jibba wrote: This has nothing to do with a timing attack.
When he had the chance to move with his army, Jaedong delayed him with drops which gave him enough time to get defilers. Bisu only had too many goons after the lurkers ate up all his zealots. See that's the thing, if it wasn't a timing attack, I don't understand why he made so many damn Dragoons.. that was totally overboard and would only be effective if he was planning to do an all-in before defilers arrived.
edit@below post: hmm perhaps, gotta watch it again, but imo he should've made more temps and less goons with his gas, especially considering the amount of hydras being used
|
United States22883 Posts
On January 09 2008 09:09 noobienoob wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2008 08:55 Jibba wrote: This has nothing to do with a timing attack.
When he had the chance to move with his army, Jaedong delayed him with drops which gave him enough time to get defilers. Bisu only had too many goons after the lurkers ate up all his zealots. See that's the thing, if it wasn't a timing attack, I don't understand why he made so many damn Dragoons.. that was totally overboard and would only be effective if he was planning to do an all-in before defilers arrived. He sacrificed a bunch of zealots to take down a hatchery, which may have been a mistake. When they cut to his army in the middle, he actually had a majority of zealots. I think the lurkers just destroyed them.
|
|
|
|