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Sweden33719 Posts
On February 18 2006 00:58 tfeign wrote: Snickers was not an invite tournament. You had to be good enough to be voted in order to be able to compete. It's not like BWWI where someone just randomnly invites a KTF member to play.
It was a big tournament with a big prize pool where 3 KTF players competed against 2 SKT1 players in addition to other players in other teams. The result? 2 out of 3 KTF players placed top 4. One actually won it all. 0 SKT1 players placed top 4.
I wouldn't call it as major a reasoning as winning a Starleague (Chojja) but it was definitely a big televised league that did infact had SKT1 and KTF players compete against each others. 'Good' and 'Popular' is NOT the same thing - why do you think Oov wasn't in it -_-? It WAS an invite tournament, just a different system of invitation, but just as arbitrary.
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The maps are set.
2/25(Sat.) ◆Sky Proleague 2005 GrandFinals Final ▶SKTelecomT1-KTFMagicians 1set R Point 2set Usan Nation 3set Rush Hours2 4set Luna the Final 5set Neo Requiem 6set Iron Curtain 7set Neo Forte
now we can make better assumptions
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On February 18 2006 22:15 EntertainMe wrote: The maps are set.
2/25(Sat.) ◆Sky Proleague 2005 GrandFinals Final ▶SKTelecomT1-KTFMagicians 1set R Point 2set Usan Nation 3set Rush Hours2 4set Luna the Final 5set Neo Requiem 6set Iron Curtain 7set Neo Forte
now we can make better assumptions
For 1v1s, I think T1 will go with:
Midas on R-point Oov on Rush Hour GoRush on Requiem
Ace game is totally random.
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Now that Boxer is out of this OSL, there is even more reason for him to play in the Proleague finals.
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1st Set R Point
SKT1:
The player for this team will be either Boxer or Midas. We know boxer has a Godly stats and timing in this map, but so does KTF and every other teams. This is a reason why every team that has played against SKT1 sent out a protoss in this map. No team is foolish enough to send a zerg against Boxer. Anticipating this little fact, SKT1 now few times have sent out Midas, the protoss killer. The chances of seeing Midas is greater if Boxer chooses to enter ANY of 2v2s (probably Iron Curtain if he does decide to enter a 2v2 since the map demands 1. terran 2. strategy.) If boxer have practiced this map, then theres no doubt he will be the one to show in match number one since achieving the first victory plays viral role in proleagues. Boxer 50%. Midas 50%.
KTF:
Its not going to be a zerg, too much to risk. Keeping in possibility that a zerg has developed a killer move/strategy, ill give this 5%.
If terran, its going to be Goodfriend. I give this possibility 25%.
I strongly believe a protoss will come out whether its Reach or Nal_ra. Knowing this map more of a macro game than a strategical one, I give the chances of Reach coming out slightly more possibilities. In sums, Reach 40% and Nal_Ra 30%.
Im too tired to continue... will post the rest tomorrow
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I think GoodFriend makes most sense if KTF's manager believes SKT1 will send out Midas or Boxer on R-Point.
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On February 18 2006 01:24 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2006 00:58 tfeign wrote: Snickers was not an invite tournament. You had to be good enough to be voted in order to be able to compete. It's not like BWWI where someone just randomnly invites a KTF member to play.
It was a big tournament with a big prize pool where 3 KTF players competed against 2 SKT1 players in addition to other players in other teams. The result? 2 out of 3 KTF players placed top 4. One actually won it all. 0 SKT1 players placed top 4.
I wouldn't call it as major a reasoning as winning a Starleague (Chojja) but it was definitely a big televised league that did infact had SKT1 and KTF players compete against each others. 'Good' and 'Popular' is NOT the same thing - why do you think Oov wasn't in it -_-? It WAS an invite tournament, just a different system of invitation, but just as arbitrary.
Not identically the same, but definitely similar. The better you are, the more likely you will be popular. Of course there will always be some exceptions such as oov. Sure, over the period of the last year oov is SKT1's biggest achiever and he wasn't in Snickers. But the same hold true for KTF's Chojja: Chojja has been KTF's biggest achiever over the past year and he wasn't in it either, so it equals out. Oov not being in the league is just as detrimental to SKT1 is as Chojja to KTF.
Winning Snickers is as financially rewarding as winning any regular Starleague, so these players definitely had the best reasons to practice their hardest for it. The fact remains that in the results, 2 out of 3 KTF players got top 4 rankings, one of which won the whole entire thing, while none of the SKT1 players managed to get any high placements at all in this league shows yet another glaring example of KTF players outperforming SKT1 players individually overall during the past year.
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On February 19 2006 02:06 tfeign wrote: Not identically the same, but definitely similar. The better you are, the more likely you will be popular. Of course there will always be some exceptions such as oov. Sure, over the period of the last year oov is SKT1's biggest achiever and he wasn't in Snickers. But the same hold true for KTF's Chojja: Chojja has been KTF's biggest achiever over the past year and he wasn't in it either, so it equals out. Also remember Chojja 2-0 oov in the recent MSL. oov not being in the league is just as detrimental to SKT1 is as Chojja to KTF.
Independently from the fact I still disagree with your reasoning, when did Chojja beat Oov 2-0??
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Oops, after re-checking the results it was Savior who 2-0'ed iloveoov and sent him to the losers brackets and not Chojja, so I'll delete that statement. Everything else still hold true though.
But remember, Chojja was the only player who could take out Savior in the starleague, and he did so twice. Likewise, Savior was the only player who could take out oov, and he did so twice (with a convincing 5-0 performance in fact; 7-0 if you go back 2 more games between these two). Even though we can't automatically assume that Chojja >>>>> oov because Chojja > Savior and Savior > oov, it's definitely convincing. Besides, didn't Chojja also beat oov the last time they faced? (event was probably proleague, map was requiem)
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Sweden33719 Posts
On February 19 2006 02:24 tfeign wrote: Oops, after re-checking the results it was Savior who 2-0'ed iloveoov and sent him to the losers brackets and not Chojja, so I'll delete that statement. Everything else still hold true though.
But remember, Chojja was the only player who could take out Savior in the starleague, and he did so twice. Likewise, Savior was the only player who could take out oov, and he did so twice (with a convincing 5-0 performance in fact; 7-0 if you go back 2 more games between these two). Even though we can't automatically assume that Chojja >>>>> oov because Chojja > Savior and Savior > oov, it's definitely convincing. Besides, didn't Chojja also beat oov the last time they faced? (event was probably proleague, map was requiem) Requiem is Z>T ;O And Chojja happens to be GODLY at ZvZ, IPXZerg is not. So that reason REALLY, doesn't hold up -.-
Snickers shouldn't be counted because it isn't a major league, they don't practice for it and they don't take it seriously (case in point; boxer and nada cracking jokes during their match.. this results in a fine if done in a starleague).
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The only reason Nada and Boxer chatted for a couple of lines during the game was because it was at a complete stalemate. Neither player could do anything in the game without sacrificing a substantial amount of his army to the other.
Why wouldn't Snickers be considered a major league? It consisted of more "big name players" than you'll ever find in a top 8 list of any Starleague. It was broadcasted for months over cable television. It had a legitimate sponsor just like any regular Starleague. It had exactly a Starleague tournament format (aside from players being voted to qualify). It had a prize award just as lucrative as any Starleague. What would give them a reason not to practice for $20,000? Now I'm not saying that it is as major as a Starleague, but it definitely is a lot more major than you are giving it credit for.
And by the way, the Snickers league wasn't counted in the Kespa rankings either. I have already explained how top KTF players have outscored SKT1 players in the Kespa ratings even though SKT1 players participated in Starleagues more times than KTF players did in the last year, which by itself is one impressive feat that just shows how good KTF players are. Then people begin to claim that beating them by a 300-point margin is not enough (and also keep in mind here that a player winning a Starleague gains only about 300 points, maybe less).
So what else can we look at to determine skills? Where else to look but for events other than those counted in the Kespa ratings? Blizzcon and BWWI are two, and both of them illustrated just how dominating KTF was. Then people claim that they mean little due to 3 of the players invited being KTF and none being SKT1's--And that's a legitimate argument.
But what about Snickers? The league definitely did pit SKT1 players against KTF players, and aside from official Starleagues, it was hands down the biggest pro gaming tournament in Korea within the last year. The results show us once again, and show it convincingly: KTF > SKT1.
But okay, lets say for the sake of example that I agree with you to not call Snickers a "major" league.
- The fact still remains that in major leagues (Starleagues), KTF outperforms SKT1 within the past year.
- The fact still also remains that in non-major leagues (non-official Starleagues, Snickers, etc.), KTF still outperforms SKT1.
KTF players outperforms SKT1 players regardless of what kind of leagues you consider major or nonmajor.
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By winning the first two Proleague finals, SKT1 has clearly outperformed KTF in Proleague. Therefore, SKT1 will win the grand final.
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Sweden33719 Posts
I wasn't actually saying SKT T1 > KTF ;p I just dont think Snickers should be counted! Hm, who won the two china-korea events btw? I remember IPXZerg won one (WEF I think?) who won CKCG? IPXZerg again?
Did oov finish 2nd in both or did he win one o_O? Not saying these should be counted, just asking since it's not totally off-topic.
Anyway, I think KTF vs SKT T1 can go pretty much eitherway, it's not like either team is in bad shape.
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Oov won CKCG 2-1 vs Nada in the final. Oov 2nd after IPx in WEF.
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I agree that KTF vs SKT1 can go either way. I'd vote on KTF though just due to the perfomance of their players not just over the last year, but also especially recently. But really, this series is going to be very very close and I wouldn't be surprised if it goes to the 7th game.
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I do not give as much as credit you give for all the individual leagues. Sure it might help a game but you need to look at the whole picture. I have yet to seen any korean commentator evaluate the individual stats in proleague.
This is what the korean experts DO compare:
-SKT1 is the first team to be double crowned within the same year. They won proleague twice. They are they one and only team to challenge to have the third crown in same year. -See the summary of their last series. SKT1: They came back from 0-2 and won the series against Samsung. Thats a big boost for their morale. KTF: They had easy cruise through G.O. with 4:2 victory. -The fact they have been decided to be in Grand Finals longer than KTF helps them to practice that much more. SKT1: Jan. 20 KTF: Feb. 15 -The last and the only time they met, December 20 2005, SKT1 took the win. -SKT1 won 6 straight in a row in Proleague to be in grandfinals. -KTF has stats of 4:3. -KTF chokes whenever it counts the most, Finals.
If you are to compare the teams, it ought to be with other proleague games.
Edit: This is my prediction
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Love the gif. LOL Too bad we won't see that matchup.
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Oh wow. That gif may very well be the funniest thing I have ever seen.
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AHAHHAAHHAA. Well, even if KTF is performing bette than SKT1, I say they are underperforming for their roster. I don't see a coherent unchallengable argument so whatever. Bunker smash to the head FTW!
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On February 19 2006 10:38 EntertainMe wrote: I do not give as much as credit you give for all the individual leagues. Sure it might help a game but you need to look at the whole picture. I have yet to seen any korean commentator evaluate the individual stats in proleague. I do look at the entire picture. The Kespa ratings take into account both individual player performances as well as their performances in Proleague. I'm not leaving Proleague games out of any comparison. If KTF has higher Kespa points, that mean overall in individual as well as Proleague, they are better than SKT1.
-See the summary of their last series. SKT1: They came back from 0-2 and won the series against Samsung. Thats a big boost for their morale. KTF: They had easy cruise through G.O. with 4:2 victory. I see KTF, after shaving and promising they will practice harder to achieve better results, managed to cruise through GO 4-2 as the biggest morale booster of all.
-The fact they have been decided to be in Grand Finals longer than KTF helps them to practice that much more. SKT1: Jan. 20 KTF: Feb. 15
Actually, the fact that they were decided to be in Grand Finals longer than KTF gave them more time to relax, while KTF were always on their toes, always had to keep practicing because they had a big series every week.
-The last and the only time they met, December 20 2005, SKT1 took the win.
That was not the only time they met. They also met before on June 7, 2005, and KTF took the win http://teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?currentpage=1&topic_id=28195 Furthermore, comparing the KTF team's current shape to their shape in late 2005 is like comparing Nal_rA to Nal_rock. And oh, don't forget Goodfriend too.
-SKT1 won 6 straight in a row in Proleague to be in grandfinals.
This hardly means much. KTF was even a lot more impressive last season, winning 10-0 in a row, and yet they still lost in the finals.
-KTF chokes whenever it counts the most, Finals. Replace with SKT1, and tell that to Boxer, late 2004-2005
Edit: This is my prediction
I wish I had a gif to counter this. FUCK
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