On February 19 2006 10:38 EntertainMe wrote: I do not give as much as credit you give for all the individual leagues. Sure it might help a game but you need to look at the whole picture. I have yet to seen any korean commentator evaluate the individual stats in proleague.
I do look at the entire picture. The Kespa ratings take into account both individual player performances as well as their performances in Proleague. I'm not leaving Proleague games out of any comparison. If KTF has higher Kespa points, that mean overall in individual as well as Proleague, they are better than SKT1.
Again, I want to point out Individual league will not affect the proleague.
According to your logic, Nal_Ra should've lost every single Proleague Ace Matches, yet what do we have? 10 straight wins, was it? Keep in mind Nal_Ra was in his "biggest slump".
"KeSPA Ranking indicates Nal_Ra should have lost every single proleague." - False
To further prove my point, even within the individual leagues, there are great varieties of success and failures. For example, Chojja might have succeeded in MSL but failed to do so in every other individual leagues. So does that imply that Chojja's performance sucking in every other area should also affect the proleague?
Individual League = Individual League Proleauge = Proleague
-See the summary of their last series. SKT1: They came back from 0-2 and won the series against Samsung. Thats a big boost for their morale. KTF: They had easy cruise through G.O. with 4:2 victory.
I see KTF, after shaving and promising they will practice harder to achieve better results, managed to cruise through GO 4-2 as the biggest morale booster of all.
If I was to evaluate who is to be credited more for their recent wins, I would favor SKT1. First of all, Samsung, was the favorite to enter the GrandFinals. G.O. was the least favorite. Second, I give more credit to have a come back victory than easy victory.
Besides, the moment KTF shaved their head, I bet they knew they made their biggest mistake of their lives. LoL. Gay hair cut PERIOD. Look at Reach, he comes out wearing a freaking beanie. In my opinion, this move was the BIGGEST and STUPIDEST letdown of their morale. ... lol...
-The fact they have been decided to be in Grand Finals longer than KTF helps them to practice that much more. SKT1: Jan. 20 KTF: Feb. 15
Actually, the fact that they were decided to be in Grand Finals longer than KTF gave them more time to relax, while KTF were always on their toes, always had to keep practicing because they had a big series every week.
Keep in mind, SKT1's schedule is not leisure as you think it is. Like someone have previously pointed out, 6(?) of their members are in the next Starleague. That alone takes away hell of a time away from them. Of course having too much free time can cause negative effect; however, they do not have toooo much time. I think they received perfect amount of time to relax and prepare fully.
Also one of their KEY player, Oov, is in the Semi Finals in StarLeague. Note that not only Oov but also his teammates have to practice with him.
-The last and the only time they met, December 20 2005, SKT1 took the win.
That was not the only time they met. They also met before on June 7, 2005, and KTF took the win http://teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?currentpage=1&topic_id=28195 Furthermore, comparing the KTF team's current shape to their shape in late 2005 is like comparing Nal_rA to Nal_rock. And oh, don't forget Goodfriend too.
Sorry for the misinformation. I do not think it will differ the outcome of the GrandFinal. One can argue KTF is in a good shape, but so are SKT1.
-SKT1 won 6 straight in a row in Proleague to be in grandfinals.
This hardly means much. KTF was even a lot more impressive last season, winning 10-0 in a row, and yet they still lost in the finals.
This only proves my point further that KTF sucks at stages where it counts the most. That was not the only time they were in such place. I believe they lost two - three finals that way.
On February 16 2006 03:22 SuperJongMan wrote: So the whole damn mess is coming to an end...
And since we have the first 4 being sent out regardless.. I wonder who the teams will open with and what you think the rosters will be and who will win and blah blah blah balh balhb albahlbahl.
I think SKT1 will open with GoRush and 2nd 1:1 will be Oov and Ace game will be Oov -_-;; I have no idea what the 2:2 teams will be like... but I think SKT1 is gonna walk over KTF cuz KTF are a buncha underachievers... in their own wierd way.
Given the fact that Oov is in Semi Finals of Star League, he will only participate one game or none at all.
If he does participate in one game, it will be the ace game. The manager Jun will try his best not to bring Oov but if the Grand Finals is on its edge, Oov is the right choice, especially when the ace map is Neo Forte(such macro map).
On February 19 2006 14:14 EntertainMe wrote: Again, I want to point out Individual league will not affect the proleague.
According to your logic, Nal_Ra should've lost every single Proleague Ace Matches, yet what do we have? 10 straight wins, was it? Keep in mind Nal_Ra was in his "biggest slump".
"KeSPA Ranking indicates Nal_Ra should have lost every single proleague." - False
To further prove my point, even within the individual leagues, there are great varieties of success and failures. For example, Chojja might have succeeded in MSL but failed to do so in every other individual leagues. So does that imply that Chojja's performance sucking in every other area should also affect the proleague?
Individual League = Individual League Proleauge = Proleague
So are you saying that players' performances in the individual league has absolutely nothing to do with indicating how good they will perform in the Proleague? This is just nonsense. When Nada was dominant in individual league, he was also dominant in proleague. When iloveoov was dominant in individual league, he was dominant in proleague. When Reach was dominant in individual league, he was dominant in proleague. The list goes on, and on, and on. Of course, as in everything there will always be some rare exceptions such as Nal_rA. And actually one of the reasons he didn't qualify for individual leagues for some time was because he somehow always seemed to be stuck in the hardest groups of death.
Besides Nal_rA, how many players can you name who did not do well in individual leagues, but consistently owned up 1v1s in Proleague?
If I was to evaluate who is to be credited more for their recent wins, I would favor SKT1. First of all, Samsung, was the favorite to enter the GrandFinals. G.O. was the least favorite. Second, I give more credit to have a come back victory than easy victory.
Okay, Since you brought that up:
SKT1 just BARELY managed to defeat GO with a score of 3-2 after being down 0-2. KTF convincingly managed to defeat GO with a score of 4-2.
Well, KTF also lost to Samsung previously in a heartbreaking loss, but then that was when their players were in bad shape, but more importantly because their coach was just absolutely absurd in his player choice decisions. KTF vs GO shows the current shape of KTF, and judging by their current shape, they managed to beat the GO team much more convincingly than SKT1 did. SKT1 had to struggle their way back from a 0-2 defeat, almost losing the entire series the whole time. KTF was never behind GO at all, and just cruised through them like your average A level PGT player vs your average C level PGT player.
This further proves my point that KTF's current shape is really, really f'n good.
Keep in mind, SKT1's schedule is not leisure as you think it is. Like someone have previously pointed out, 6(?) of their members are in the next Starleague. That alone takes away hell of a time away from them. Of course having too much free time can cause negative effect; however, they do not have toooo much time. I think they received perfect amount of time to relax and prepare fully.
Also one of their KEY player, Oov, is in the Semi Finals in StarLeague. Note that not only Oov but also his teammates have to practice with him.
You're just agreeing with me here that SKT1 won't have the same amount of practice time as KTF does. Therefore logically, more practice = better chance to win.
This only proves my point further that KTF sucks at stages where it counts the most. That was not the only time they were in such place. I believe they lost two - three finals that way.
I see it as it more proves the point that having a 6-0 streak does not make you any more invincible than your opponent. KTF went 10-0 and still lost in the finals. SKT having a 6 win streak (and guess what, before that, SKT1 lost several series) means that they are certainly vulnerable to lose in the final.
Now also, Boxer lost 2 finals between 2004 and 2005. Does that mean Boxer is doomed whenever he gets to a final? Of course not. He just has to be in better shape. And again, the shape of the KTF team now compared to what they were before is a mile apart - once again giving a good indication they can take out SKT1 in this final.
guys all the paragraphs upon paragraphs of posts mean nothing.
SKT1 has won two rounds of the proleague before this one first round they dominated second round they got behind at first and then dominated with multiple decisive wins
KTF was beaten convincingly in the first round finals, and was lackluster the second round games. KTF is amazing at choking, even when they went TEN AND ZERO!
all the stuff about practice schedules giving an advantage to either team is stupid. both KTF and SKT1 have been practicing heavily for the finals. SKT1 has stated multiple times that proleague > individual leagues. KTF has obvioulsy been practicing proleague since they had to play last week vs GO.
SKT1's players are more successful right now, period. there are only EIGHT of them in the upcoming MSL and they dominated KTF 3-1 in the quarters of the current OSL.
it's a close match, but SKT1 is obviously favored to win, giving odds to KTF requires a huge amount of grasping at straws (people are mentioning the obviously flawed kespa rankings, and special event tournies as well, it's sad)
it's a close match, but SKT1 is obviously favored to win, giving odds to KTF requires a huge amount of grasping at straws (people are mentioning the obviously flawed kespa rankings, and special event tournies as well, it's sad)
On February 19 2006 16:02 tfeign wrote: So are you saying that players' performances in the individual league has absolutely nothing to do with indicating how good they will perform in the Proleague? This is nonsense. When Nada was dominant in individual league, he was also dominant in proleague. When iloveoov was dominant in individual league, he was dominant in proleague. When Reach was dominant in individual league, he was dominant in proleague. The list goes on, and on, and on. Of course, as in everything there will always be some rare exceptions such as Nal_rA. And actually one of the reasons he didn't qualify for individual leagues for some time was because he somehow always seemed to be stuck in the hardest groups of death.
Besides Nal_rA, how many players can you name who did not do well in individual leagues, but consistently owned up 1v1s in Proleague?
Ok, I did a bad job expressing what my thoughts are regarding to the individual league.
Individual League does play a role upto certain extent. It reflects the skills of the individual players. Of course if the player is skilled, he will succeed no matter what the tournament he is in. However, this is my point, the stats does not gaurantee you a win in proleague.
No matter how bad or good a player's stats are in the Individual League, if he is a good player, he is bound to do well in proleague.
I'm going to use the same example, Nal_Ra. You agree with me he wasn't doing so well in the Individual League. Its been almost two years since we have seen him in a starleague. But in Proleague, he dominated. This is not a rare exception. A good player is a good player regardless of what your "stats" are in the Individual League.
NaDa is also another example. Ever since the begining of 2005, he failed to show his face in the Individual Leagues. Some say he also is in a slump such as Nal_Ra. If you followed Pantech's Proleague, NaDa was the only one who earned them a victory. Even in a slump, NaDa continuously did well in Proleague. Why? A good player is a good player no matter what their little "stats" tells about them.
And of course, all those dominant players will also do well in Proleague, because they ARE all incredible players.
Ultimately, Individual League = Individual League Proleague = Proleague
Yes, I agree with you the Individual League reflects on Player's Skill, but Individual Wins/Stats does not play a role in Proleague.
Okay, Since you brought that up:
SKT1 just BARELY managed to defeat GO with a score of 3-2 after being down 0-2. KTF convincingly managed to defeat GO with a score of 4-2.
Well, KTF also lost to Samsung previously in a heartbreaking loss, but then that was when their players were in bad shape, but more importantly because their coach was just absolutely absurd in his player choice decisions. KTF vs GO shows the current shape of KTF, and judging by their current shape, they managed to beat the GO team much more convincingly than SKT1 did. SKT1 had to struggle their way back from a 0-2 defeat, almost losing the entire series the whole time. KTF was never behind GO at all, and just cruised through them like your average A level PGT player vs your average C level PGT player.
This further proves my point that KTF's current shape is really, really f'n good.
I do not understand how you are evaluating if one is in a good shape. How long of a period of time do you have to succeed to be considered as "doing well"?
You almost sound as if KTF's last loss against SamSung shouldn't count because they achieved two wins after that. Looking at a team just for a week or two to determine if they are healthy or not is definitely not enough.
I see it as it more proves the point that having a 6-0 streak does not make you any more invincible than your opponent. KTF went 10-0 and still lost in the finals. SKT having a 6 win streak (and guess what, before that, SKT1 lost several series) means that they are certainly vulnerable to lose in the final.
6-0 streak does not make you any more invincible than your opponent. 6-0 just gives you hell of a confidence. SKT1 has won 2 Proleagues already so I do not think they will choke.
In the opposite, KTF managed to be at Finals for several times. They failed to win a single title in proleague. Each time, they choked. This jinx is on KTF not SKT1.
Now also, Boxer lost 2 finals between 2004 and 2005. Does that mean Boxer is doomed whenever he gets to a final? Of course not. He just has to be in better shape. And again, the shape of the KTF team now compared to what they were before is a mile apart - once again giving a good indication they can take out SKT1 in this final.
Boxer is a bad example because he did indeed win couple of Finals already. There is no existing jinx on Boxer whereas KTF has NEVER won ANYTHING in PROLEAGUE even tho they have appeared SEVERAL TIMES.
I am glad we are discussing more about Proleague rather than Individual stats tho.
On February 16 2006 03:48 ToKoreaWithLove wrote: I also feel that KTF has a good shot. They have been doing a lot better lately, while SK have not been up to par in the single leagues (arguably because they have been focusing on the proleague). I say about 50-50.
That's always the way it is when these two teams meet. That's why the games are always so entertaining.
Ok, I did a bad job expressing what my thoughts are regarding to the individual league.
Individual League does play a role upto certain extent. It reflects the skills of the individual players. Of course if the player is skilled, he will succeed no matter what the tournament he is in. However, this is my point, the stats does not gaurantee you a win in proleague.
No matter how bad or good a player's stats are in the Individual League, if he is a good player, he is bound to do well in proleague.
I'm going to use the same example, Nal_Ra. You agree with me he wasn't doing so well in the Individual League. Its been almost two years since we have seen him in a starleague. But in Proleague, he dominated. This is not a rare exception. A good player is a good player regardless of what your "stats" are in the Individual League.
NaDa is also another example. Ever since the begining of 2005, he failed to show his face in the Individual Leagues. Some say he also is in a slump such as Nal_Ra. If you followed Pantech's Proleague, NaDa was the only one who earned them a victory. Even in a slump, NaDa continuously did well in Proleague. Why? A good player is a good player no matter what their little "stats" tells about them.
And of course, all those dominant players will also do well in Proleague, because they ARE all incredible players.
Ultimately, Individual League = Individual League Proleague = Proleague
Yes, I agree with you the Individual League reflects on Player's Skill, but Individual Wins/Stats does not play a role in Proleague.
I really don't understand what you are trying to argue against here. You first said Individual and Proleague are independant of each other. Then you said they individual leagues reflect upon players skills. Then you go on to say good players are good regardless of their stats in individual league. Then you say dominant players will do well in Proleague. You finally end it with Individual League = Individual League, Proleague = Proleague. To me this part of your post does not make any coherent sense.
I do not understand how you are evaluating if one is in a good shape. How long of a period of time do you have to succeed to be considered as "doing well"?
You almost sound as if KTF's last loss against SamSung shouldn't count because they achieved two wins after that. Looking at a team just for a week or two to determine if they are healthy or not is definitely not enough.
I've already said multiple times that that's not the only reason why KTF is in much better shape. There is a multitude of different reasons. Besides winning in proleague as you've agreed, KTF has also:
1. They managed to defeat the monster GO team in a much more convincing manner than SKT1 did
2. Their players are in much better individual shapes. More and more KTF players are qualifying for the next OSL every week
3. Their players have shaved their heads and promised to work harder than ever before to turn things around, and so far it looks they are doing one hell of a job backing it up
4. The main reason why lost to Samsung was just a result of their coach being completely absurd in his player selection. If the coach had any better sense, KTF would have not lost to Samsung in such a manner. When KTF fought GO last time, the KTF coach did a much better job in his player selection. Guess what happened? KTF annihilated the GO team easily. So hell, even the damn coach looks to be in much better shape than before.
5. Goodfriend is now available at their disposal. He was not available to KTF during the last season at all.
If all of these reasons together don't show to you that the team is in much better shape, I don't know what else can.
6-0 streak does not make you any more invincible than your opponent. 6-0 just gives you hell of a confidence. SKT1 has won 2 Proleagues already so I do not think they will choke.
In the opposite, KTF managed to be at Finals for several times. They failed to win a single title in proleague. Each time, they choked. This jinx is on KTF not SKT1.
KTF had some hell of a confidence too after going 10-0 last season, and they lost in the final. Having too much confidence isn't necessarily a good thing.
And the fact that KTF hasn't won a title yet gives them even more inspiration to win the grand final of them all. Add this in as reason number 6: The fact that they have not yet tasted winning a final gives them even more motivation and desire to practice hard and win it all this time.
Boxer is a bad example because he did indeed win couple of Finals already. There is no existing jinx on Boxer whereas KTF has NEVER won ANYTHING in PROLEAGUE even tho they have appeared SEVERAL TIMES.
The same idea applies. Just because they haven't won a final before it doesn't mean that they cannot win the grand final. The reason why they can win now as opposed to before is because their players are in much better shape than before.
And oh keep in mind that I've already given 6 reasons why the KTF team now is better than the KTF team that lost to Samsung a few weeks ago. I can name probably twice as many reasons why the KTF team now is better than the KTF team that lost in the previous final.
after reading this shit for 30 minutes i can say only a couple of things: -you guys cant say whos better. You cant find something that indicates who will win. Reach might jack off all night with porno and loose to hovz , or boxer can spend all night watching titanic and also loose. SC like any other sport , ISNT RATIONAL, you just cant find a rational argument for whom will win since it has more variables than the games itself and you know only a couple. Chelsea shoulda raped middlesborough and they lost. BArcelona shoulda raped Atletico de madrid and they lost. Seahawks were supposed to raped steelers and they lost. Fucking detroit pistons were supposed to beat other teams winning record in regular season and they got owned 3 times in last games. You cant know , so stop arguing about something its beyond you. Let the games speak for themselves.
On February 20 2006 17:02 k3fka wrote: after reading this shit for 30 minutes i can say only a couple of things: -you guys cant say whos better. You cant find something that indicates who will win. Reach might jack off all night with porno and loose to hovz , or boxer can spend all night watching titanic and also loose. SC like any other sport , ISNT RATIONAL, you just cant find a rational argument for whom will win since it has more variables than the games itself and you know only a couple. Chelsea shoulda raped middlesborough and they lost. BArcelona shoulda raped Atletico de madrid and they lost. Seahawks were supposed to raped steelers and they lost. Fucking detroit pistons were supposed to beat other teams winning record in regular season and they got owned 3 times in last games. You cant know , so stop arguing about something its beyond you. Let the games speak for themselves.
no offense dude but the steelers were favored to win that game