• Greatest player of Wings of Liberty • Widely considered the GOAT until 2017 • Eight Liquipedia premier tournaments won during two-year peak
Notable tournament finishes
2011 Code S January: 1st place
2011 GSL World Championship: 1st place
2011 MLG Anaheim: 1st place
2011 Code S August: 1st place
2011 Code S October: 2nd place
2011 BlizzCon Invitation: 1st place
2011 World Cyber Games: 1st place
2012 Code S Season 2: 1st place
2012 IEM Cologne: 1st place
2012 Code S Season 4: 2nd place
2013 WCS Europe Season 1: 1st place
Every player on this list was dominant to some extent, but Mvp may have been the most dominant player ever within his own era. He attained three Code S championships and two runner-ups during Wings of Liberty, becoming a grand finals regular back when merely qualifying for the tournament ten times in a row was deemed worthy of an award.
Mvp was excellent outside of Code S as well, picking up five Liquipedia-premier titles in "weekender"-style tournaments during Wings of Liberty. A handful of players came close to him in terms of either domestic achievements (Nestea) or international success (Leenock, TaeJa), but no one could match his combined resume in WoL. The simple fact was that Mvp was light years ahead of his contemporaries in the foundational years of SC2.
The reign of the King of Wings could be roughly broken down into two different eras. 2011 saw him rule as a 'traditional' StarCraft tyrant, outplaying his opponents in every aspect of the game and attaining absurd win-rates. From 2012 onward, wrist and back issues slowly forced him to adapt a more cerebral playstyle, beating opponents with planning and cunning rather than overwhelming mechanics.
While Mvp's career may have been much shorter than the other players featured on this list, his era-defining play make him unquestionably one of the greatest of all time.
Insert your own joke about two goats and an MC.
Career Overview: The King of Wings
Just like players 10 through 5 on this list, Mvp began his career as a KeSPA convert from StarCraft: Brood War. However, unlike those players, he did not make a forced transition during the official KeSPA migration of 2012. Instead, he was one of the early adopters, jumping into StarCraft II during its launch year of 2010.
Mvp wasn't immediately ready to go upon Wings of Liberty's official release in July—he was tied up with his KeSPA team Woongjin Stars until August, and even considered retiring from progaming at that time. However, he decided to give StarCraft II a shot on his father's recommendation, and made his debut in GSL Open Season 2 of 2010. Mvp was the most high-profile Brood War player to switch games at that point, being the only regular Proleague rotation player to make the leap. Considering that reputation, his first tournament was a disappointment as he finished in the RO32 of the 64-player tournament. Open Season 3 was similarly unremarkable, though Mvp improved slightly for an RO16 finish (most notably beating IdrA on the way).
However, by the time 2011 came around, Mvp's adjustment period was complete, and he was ready to ascend to the throne. In GSL January: Code S (the first season to have official Code S branding), he stormed through the group stages without a loss, and continued his hot streak into the RO8 with a 3-0 over Trickster. In the final two rounds, Mvp took out both finalists from his tepid debut tournament just four months prior—Nestea (3-1) and MarineKing (4-0)—to make it absolutely clear that this was a different Mvp. Even to this day, Mvp’s 16-1 record in Code S January is one of the best runs in tournament history (only NesTea managed to win Code S with fewer losses—going 14-0 in the July edition of the tournament in 2011).
A championship hangover came quickly for Mvp, as he languished in the lower rounds during the March, May, and July seasons of Code S—even briefly falling to Code A during GSL May (ironically, Code A's semi-standalone structure at the time made it so that Mvp's reputation didn't take much of a hit due to this 2nd place finish). Even the ₩100,000,000 first place prize of the first GSL Super Tournament couldn't wake Mvp from his torpor, as he dropped out after two rounds. Still, those spring and early summer months weren't entirely fruitless, as Mvp hit gold again in the first GSL World Championship held in April, winning the trophy with another victory against MarineKing in the finals (4-2). And, while this specific article series considers the GSL WC to be lesser than Code S in hindsight, this was regarded as a "full" GSL win for Mvp at the time (understandable given the historical context) and reaffirmed him as one of the top players in the world.
Mvp shook off his Code S funk as he moved into the second half of the year. First, he gave a little preview of what was to come at MLG Anaheim, beating DongRaeGu, Boxer, and MMA to win one of the most hyped international tournaments to date. Then, upon returning to Korea, he made his struggles in the past three Code S events seem completely irrelevant in Code S August, winning his second Code S title and third GSL title overall with another historically great map score of 14-2. He took out a number of the biggest names in the scene along the way—including MC, Polt, Nestea, HuK—before taking out TOP (now better known as Kiwian) 4-1 in the finals.
There would be no post-championship slump this time around, and Mvp went straight back to the finals in Code S October. Again, he took out some of the star players of the time, beating Bomber (2-0) in the RO16 and Nestea (3-2) in the quarterfinals. However, the grand finals against MMA saw Mvp forced to play a supporting role in a career-making performance for the SlayerS Terran, who avenged his finals loss to Mvp at MLG Anaheim to claim his first Code S championship.
Mvp closed out his 2011 Code S journey with another strong result in Code S November, finishing in the final four. Mvp was undefeated through the group stage (where he beat eventual champion jjakji) and the RO8, but bowed out of the RO4 after suffering a narrow 2-3 loss against the rising Zerg Leenock.
The last quarter of 2011 was also a huge success for Mvp in terms of non-GSL competitions. At the 2011 BlizzCon Invitational and the World Cyber Games—two 'Olympic-style' tournaments with diverse international representation—he fulfilled his duty as Korea's top representative by annihilating the rest of the field and claiming the championship for StarCraft's adopted homeland. In particular, the WCG victory had extra symbolic meaning, as Brood War greats such as Boxer, iloveoov, Jaedong, and Flash had all previously won the gold medal as an unofficial rite of passage (in a sad but funny twist, Mvp won the right to represent Korea by defeating personal punching bag MarineKing again in the finals of the qualifier). At MLG Providence—the grand finale to the 2011 MLG season—Mvp attained a respectable 4th place finish after bowing out to eventual champion Leenock in the losers' bracket.
Mvp eyes his free win ticket with an admiring gaze.
After his tremendous 2011 where he achieved two Code S championships and one runner-up, Mvp stumbled to begin his 2012 campaign as he was eliminated in the RO16 of Code S Season 1. While Mvp had already made his issues with wrist pain known in 2011, this abruptly poor result abruptly turned it into a point of major concern (later, we would learn Mvp also had issues with a slipped disc in his back, which further impeded his ability to practice). While some fans were slightly overzealous in using Mvp's health to explain his decline entirely (the next generation of players was definitely getting better at the same time), something was clearly not right with the former best in the world. Mvp even quietly declined to attend the spring's IPL4 and MLG Winter Championship events—by far the most important and lucrative international tournaments he could have played in—suggesting he really needed the time off for recovery (later that year, he would explicitly decline his IPL5 spot due to health issues).
In April of 2012, just ahead of Mvp's Code S RO32 group, his team Incredible Miracle posted the following message on Facebook: "MVP has been resting for quite some time. He is preparing to make a comeback so please cheer for him." And what a comeback it was.
In Mvp's most dramatic Code S championship saga, he showed us the most noticeable effect of his deteriorating health: a drastically changed playstyle. In 2011, Mvp had loosely fit the Terran macro-monster archetype of player, beating his opponents by being better at all aspects of standard play. However, 2012 Mvp leaned more heavily into his strengths that weren't mechanics related—his ability to strategize in series, and his superior understanding of late-game scenarios. This meant more cheeses and more mech—both things he enjoyed mixing in before, but were now cornerstones of his extremely crafty style.
Early indicators were mixed. Mvp just barely squeaked through the first two group stages, getting second place both times. However, in the RO16 group decider match against Leenock—who had defeated Mvp in their last two meetings and was one of the fastest rising stars in the game—Mvp pulled out a vintage performance from 2011 to beat him 2-1 in straight-up games. Even though Mvp said his hands were going numb by the end of the series, it was the kind of performance that made fans believe the old Mvp might be back.
Mvp's RO8 match against NaNiwa—one of the few non-Korean players who could play at a Code S level at the time—projected to be tricky, but Mvp leaned heavily on SCV-pull all-ins to take the 3-1 victory (much to the chagrin of international fans). Mvp's next opponent of PartinG posed a much greater challenge, as he was widely regarded as the best PvT player in the world at the time. But somehow, despite PartinG having had plenty of time to scout the series against NaNiwa, Mvp got his cheeses to work again. An SCV-pull all-in did the job in game one, while a 1/1/1 narrowly beat PartinG in game two. Though PartinG got to show off his best-in-world macro play in game three, Mvp sealed the deal with Marine-Medivac drops in game four.
That set up Mvp to face one last PvT trial, which would be the most difficult of his entire run. His finals opponent would be Squirtle, who had just finished second place at IPL4 with wins over several of the top players in the scene, and had put up a 14-1 map record in Code S on his way to the finals. However, Mvp's continued defiance in the face of long odds had won fans over, and the finals looked to be a toss-up between the Squirtle's objective might and Mvp's magic.
After three games, it appeared that fans had underestimated Mvp's veteran savvy yet again. He reeled off three wins off the bat, putting himself in a historically unloseable position. However, Squirtle proved he was also possessed of a strong mentality by fighting back, going on a 3-0 run where he comprehensively outplayed the Incredible Miracle Terran once both players were established on three bases (including the infamous late game affair on Metropolis). That sent the two players to a seventh and final game on Atlantis Spaceship, a ridiculously macro-favored map where Protoss had a 60%+ winrate against Terran.
Mvp must have known full well just how bad of a position he was in. Squirtles pace and precision had played a large part in his comeback, while Mvp struggled to keep up with his limited dexterity. Needed to negate Squirtle’s biggest advantage to win the series, Mvp put it all on the line with a game seven cheese.
In one of the most daring games in StarCraft II history at that point, Mvp forced Squirtle’s hand by building a pair of Barracks on the Protoss side of the map. After an intense back and forth battle in Squirtle’s main, Squirtled seemed to have stymied the all-in. In any other situation, Squirtle would have won the game. He was ahead in virtually every metric and his Stalkers were a perfect counter for small groups of Marines. However, the incredible composure Squirtle had shown to tie the series left him in this moment, and he moved to counterattack far too soon. Unfortunately for Squirtle, Mvp had been gathering Marines and SCV's for one final attack, and he seized upon Squirtle's mispositioned units to deal a championship-winning blow. Mvp had won his third Code S, fourth GSL, and with it, the title of "Greatest of all Time" in StarCraft II's young history.
From Mvp to Serral, an affinity for hats has been a running trend among SC2 greats.
After going on such an incredible run, Mvp went back to looking like an injury-wracked veteran in his next couple of tournaments. He fell in the RO16 of both Code S Season 3 and the inaugural StarCraft II OSL, leaving fans to wonder if the Code S Season 2 had been the final great performance of a legend. Mvp continued to manage his workload, declining even more major events in the WCS Korea nationals and IPL5. Still, when he did make a rare overseas appearance at IEM Cologne, he proved that even a diminished legend is greater than the majority of players in the world by defeating a foreigner-heavy pool to win the championship.
As it turned out, Mvp did have one final flame to burn in Code S Season 4. He stumbled a bit in the RO32, picking up a loss before advancing in second place, but looked better in the RO16 as he advanced in first place. Mvp was an underdog against his first two playoff opponents in Symbol and Rain, but after the experience of Code S Season 2, no one was surprised when he used his veteran know-how to once again quell the momentum of rising contenders (the TL.net previews of the time listed the strengths and weaknesses for the playoff contenders; for Mvp, the strengths column led with "is Mvp").
Back in the finals for the second time in 2012, and now challenging for a newly created G5L trophy, Mvp found himself facing yet another meteoric rising player in Life. At this point, old-man-Mvp's ability to take down more talented but less experienced players was legendary—perhaps even more so than his 2011 reign of terror. It was completely reasonable to think that Mvp would just magically conjure a victory again, and a short poll of progamers and TL.net writers favored Mvp by a 11-to-5 score. MMA's comments summed up what many fans were probably thinking "I think it's really 50/50. Life's mechanics are way ahead, but Mvp is just different in tournaments. It will all depend on how Mvp prepares."
In what would become a painfully familiar pattern in the next few months, the games were largely decided by whether or not the Terran player could prevent the Zerg from assembling the deadly Brood Lord-Infestor composition. Mvp wouldn't slow Life down in the first two games, and tapped out to Life's ultimate high-tech force. As one would expect, Mvp was completely unrattled, and fought his way back from the deficit. He tied up the score with two straight games of blue-flame Hellion openers, and then took the lead by winning game five with his signature mech. However, Life successfully played to this win condition in the final two games, navigating the early/mid-game to assemble his Brood Lord-Infestor swarms once more. For all his preparation, Mvp didn't have an answer for this invincible composition—BL-Infestor might be the only thing that equals Mvp as an icon of the WoL era—and he surrendered the championship to Life.
Despite the finals loss, Mvp's fantastic all-around performance left fans wondering if he could stick around Code S and continue to manufacture deep playoff runs out of sheer cunning and willpower. Unfortunately, Season 4 was truly Mvp's last ride in Code S, as he was knocked out of the RO32 in the next two seasons. With the release of Heart of the Swarm in March of 2013, Blizzard also introduced a radically changed WCS system for esports (the world was split into the GSL, WCS Europe, and WCS Americas regions, but without a 'hard' region lock). Presented with an opportunity to leave the GSL and play in the easier WCS Europe region, Mvp decided to say farewell to the tournament series that had made him a legend. To some, this signaled the start of a gradual road to retirement. To others, it was an opportunity for Mvp win one last tournament before his body forced him to call it quits.
Peak MVP vs peak Stephano was one of the most unfortunate, unfulfilled dream matches of SC2.
Both groups turned out to be correct. After showing he was ready for Heart of the Swarm by placing top four at the 2013 IEM World Championship (the first ever HotS major), Mvp emerged victorious in the very first season of WCS Europe. In the finals match against Stephano—himself a slowly declining legend of WoL—Mvp proved he had a little more left in the tank by taking a 4-1 victory.
Mvp was clearly running on fumes by this point, but he had one more "he's still got it" performance left in him. Winning WCS Europe earned Mvp a spot in the WCS Season 1 Finals a competition between the best players from the GSL and WCS. As he was wont to do, Mvp found a way to make it through the RO16 group stages before taking out fellow WCS Europe player ForGG in the Round of 8. Having reached the semifinals, Mvp found himself at an extreme disadvantage against INnoVation. Mvp may have spent 2012 putting down players who could be called 'the next big thing,' but the STX Soul Terran looked like he was on a different level entirely.
In what would prove to be Mvp’s last hurrah, he pushed INnoVation to his limits in a way no one expected. In particular, Mvp's astounding comeback win in game two on Akilon Wastes proved that even if it was just for one game, Mvp could briefly become the best player in the world. Mvp even managed to take the lead temporarily after taking game three as well, but finally, father time, the gods of ligaments and joints, and fate came to collect their long overdue debt. All the mind games, tricks and feints in the world were never going to be enough to make up the mechanical difference between the two great Terrans. INnoVation proceeded to win games four and five, eliminate Mvp, and sweep sOs in the finals to win the entire tournament.
After a one-and-a-half year farewell tour in WCS Europe, Mvp announced his retirement in mid 2014. He did so as the unquestionable, undeniable, Greatest StarCraft II player of all time. Now, nearly a decade removed from his retirement, Mvp is still remembered as one of the best to ever play StarCraft II.
The Tools: Brains, Brawn, and Heart
The 2011 version of Mvp was made in the image of the Terran greats of Brood War. Like Nada, iloveoov, and Flash, he was simply better than his opponents at what seemed like every aspect of the game, administering comprehensive and one-sided beatdowns. Still, as with those three BW legends, Mvp had one area in which he particularly excelled: late-game play. Macro and late-game play are often the last things to get figured out in a new RTS, and Mvp was ahead of the curve in terms of his understanding. Like many players with this disposition, this led to a particular affinity for mech.
Despite being the first truly dominant player in SC2, Mvp might be more well-known and beloved for his dramatic runs as the injury-wracked veteran in 2012. During this time, his cunning and intelligence came to the forefront. He had an amazing sense for when to cheese, when he could get away with a straight-up game against a 'better' player, and when he needed to play safe himself.
Finally, Mvp had one of the strongest "knows how to win" factors in all of StarCraft II history. This highly unscientific attribute encompasses all of the intangibles: composure, intimidation, adaptability and the like. Perhaps some day, someone will accurately break down SC2's murky terms like "mental" and "condition" into more objective and measurable factors. Until then, it will suffice to say that Mvp was one hell of a winner.
The Numbers: A Brief But Glorious Dynasty
Chronology of Korean Individual League (Code Sᵃ, OSL) finishes Wings of Liberty (July 2010 to March 2013)
a: The 2010 Open Seasons and the 2011 Super Tournament were included due the number of players and amount of prize money. The GSL World Championship was counted as a "weekender" for the purposes of this section. b: 64-player tournament. c: 16-player tournament
Finals appearances in Korean Individual League (Code Sᵃ, OSL, SSLᵇ) finishes From the start of StarCraft II (July 2010) until present day (February 2024).
a: The 2010 Open Seasons and the 2011 Super Tournament were included due the number of players and amount of prize money. The GSL World Championship was counted as a "weekender" for the purposes of this section. b: SSL 2017 was excluded due to its 10-player format c: INnoVation is 4-1 in finals when including SSL 2017 d: Dark is 3-3 in finals when including SSL 2017 c: Stats is 2-4 in finals when including SSL 2017
When it comes to Korean Individual Leagues, few players enjoyed as successful a prime as Mvp. His run between January of 2011 and October of 2012 was one of the most dominant in Korean Individual League history, as he reached the finals in nearly 30% of his tournament appearances and won the championship 18% of the time. Both of these absurd marks stood unchallenged for nearly a decade, until Maru finally surpassed them in a very different era.
In hindsight, Nestea and MC should have been grateful that Mvp was just slightly slower in adapting to SC2, allowing them to pick up two GSL Open championships in 2010. Because, from 2011 onward, their combined record of 3 Code S championships and 1 runner-up still fell short of Mvp's solo mark of 3 championships and 2 runner-ups (and that's with me being stingy and not counting his GSL World Championship win, which actually had quasi-Code S status at the time).
Number of championships in "Weekenders": Liquipedia-premier tournaments excluding Korean Individual League (Code S, OSL) Wings of Liberty (July 2010 to March 2013)
Mvp’s name and legend may have been made in Code S, but he was also extremely accomplished when it came to the "weekender" tournaments of the time.
For the sake of convenience, I used Liquipedia-premier tournaments to measure success in the above chart, knowing that the category encompasses a broad range of events in terms of difficulty and prestige. Still, just counting trophies gives us a rough estimate of Mvp's success, and tells us he was in the running to be the King of Weekenders on top of Code S (Leenock, Stephano, and Mvp all have a case, depending on how one weighs each individual event).
Mvp's head-to-head record against notable players in offline matches Wings of Liberty (July 2010 to March 2013)
Notable half-year win-loss records vs Korean playersᵃ From the beginning of StarCraft II until present day
a: To adjust for record inflation from international tournaments during an era where the Korea-World gap was at its widest. b: Match records can be misleading in this period due to best-of-one Proleague matches. While they were included for references, game records are probably a better indicator of ability.
In terms of historically great statistical stretches, Mvp's 2011 still stands the test of time. What's especially impressive is that Mvp wasn't just mowing through the rank and file—he was also crushing the top players of the early SC2 era in MC, Nestea, and MarineKing as well. While the new crop of players that started to emerge in the second half of 2011 put up a better fight, overall, Mvp was clearly the top dog of his era in terms of both tournament resume and statistical win-rates.
The Placement
Mvp's greatness derives from how thoroughly he dominated his era. He was far and away the greatest player of Wings of Liberty, and was already the StarCraft II GOAT in the eyes of many fans when he won his third Code S title and fourth GSL overall against Squirtle in May of 2012. That status held for nearly five more years until INnoVation won a third Code S of his own in 2017.
On this list, Mvp comes in one spot above #5 INnoVation largely due to the fact that the Machine didn't overshadow his contemporaries quite as severely. While I've asserted that INnoVation was the best player from 2013 to 2017, the articles for Zest, sOs, and Rain show that there were periods where they could have thrown their hats in the ring alongside him. Mvp is the first, and maybe only player on this list who ruled his era without any realistic challengers. His closest period rival was teammate Nestea who did equal him with three Code S titles, but fell behind severely in nearly all other criteria (non-Code S tournaments, peak win-rates, championship contention after 2011). So tight was Mvp's grip over early-WoL era competition that this writer finds it very tempting to deem Mvp the most dominant player to ever play StarCraft II.
A note on the KeSPA invasion
One of the core tenets of this GOAT list is that players can only be judged in their own time. The fact that the average 2024 progamer sent back to 2011 would beat Mvp has no bearing on either's greatness.
However, as a tangent, I do want to argue against the occasional argument I see (much rarer now) that the greatness of pre-KeSPA players is diminished because of the eventual KeSPA supremacy that was later established.
It is true that the StarCraft II scene became substantially more competitive after the infusion of KeSPA players, and many of 'first generation' players were swept aside. However, many of these first-gen players continued to be relevant through the KeSPA era. MMA reached the finals of the WCS Global Finals in 2014. TaeJa reached the top four of two world championships stacked with KeSPA players. ByuN showed that KeSPA players were as much a product of their environments as their talent, winning BlizzCon 2016 as a teamless player in the wake of KeSPA teams disbanding earlier in the fall. PartinG, Maru, and Life all became marquee signings for the top KeSPA squads, and Maru would obviously go on to become the greatest GSL player ever.
The point of all this is to ask: if so many of the best first generation players enjoyed success in the post-KeSPA world, then what could THE best first generation player have achieved if his body had held up?
The Games:
Mvp vs Top: 2011 Code S August - Finals, Game 1 (September 10, 2011)
Mvp was the undisputed king of the GomTvT era, and his sweep of TOP in the finals Code S August 2011 is a great demonstration. The most impressive game of the finals was game one on Daybreak, where Mvp comprehensively dismantled TOP in a late-game split map scenario. TOP's play hasn't held up well in retrospect, but it shows far ahead Mvp was of his peers in understanding how to play mature, macro-oriented StarCraft II in 2011.
Mvp vs Nestea: 2011 BlizzCon Invitational - Finals, Game 4 (October 22nd, 2011)
Similar to the above match, Mvp showed off his late-game prowess in TvZ as he faced off against his teammate Nestea at the finals of BlizzCon. While early SC2 gets an unfairly bad rap from a certain section of the fandom, you can see here how Mvp was already laying the foundations for defensive TvZ that would be followed for years to come. In particular, Mvp was the first player to truly realize and abuse the might of the Ghost at the championship level, sparking years of balance tweaks and changes around this meta-defining unit.
Mvp vs Squirtle: 2012 Code S Season 2 - Finals, Game 7 (May 19, 2012)
It's amusing that the most iconic game of Mvp's career is a loss—his late-game defeat against Squirtle's Mothership in Game Five of the Code S finals. More amusing is the fact that his second most iconic game—the game seven clincher on Atlantis Spaceship—has very little to do with great in-game StarCraft play.
Instead, this game reflects all the qualities that made Mvp such a mythic figure in 2012. He won this game with sheer chutzpah, willpower, and mental fortitude, going all-in with a proxy-Barracks and allowing his opponent to fall apart on his own. It's as if he had a personal Oliveira-at-IEM-Katowice-2023 field generator that he could activate at will, but for entire GSL seasons at a time.
Mvp vs INnoVation: 2013 WCS Season 1 Finals - Semifinals, Game 2 (June 8, 2013)
While Mvp played for over a year after this match, you can still think of it as his last stand. No one gave Mvp much of a chance against INnoVation during his 2013 peak, but Mvp somehow managed to force him to five games with a throwback performance. Game Two on Akilon Wastes was the most impressive game, with Mvp overcoming a massive early supply deficit to win in a stunning comeback victory. Mvp showed us that TvT is the match-up where decision-making and positioning is most capable of making up for a gulf in terms of mechanics, which is something players like Ryung continue to prove to this day.
Written by: Mizenhauer Editors: CosmicSpiral, Wax Statistics and records: Aligulac.com and Liquipedia Images and Photos: Keving Chang, Patrick Strack (via ESL), Blizzard, TakeTV
I'd probably put MVP 6th (behind Zest, Inno, Maru, Serral, and Rogue), but he definitely belongs somewhere in a top 10. MVP was so much fun to watch, if only he could've continued playing
Poor Rogue though, nobody will riot if he gets #3 even though he arguably has the best claim to GOAT.
I think mvp's wol's accomplishments are vastly overrated. He won a lot of Code S, but, he lost in so many Code S as well. How many Code S were there per year? How many MLG's, homestory cups, and other various international event did he lose in, even against mediocre players?
He mostly got smacked anytime he went overseas besides that one IEM..I don't think that Mvp was ever really as scary as someone like innovation or dark, who put fear in the hearts of their opponents, and made it seem like no foreigner could ever touch them.
Mvp was a series preparation specialist, did really well in GSL, but failed to ever look like truly the best player in WoL besides choosing builds really well.
On February 20 2024 08:30 imData wrote: Very nice troll, now give us the real #4
I highly doubt it’s a troll
Mvp has been the uncontested GOAT of WoL, and was still accomplishing things in HotS
Why tf are you using my real name here? Mvp was the uncontested GOAT of a game that lived 3 years out of 14, and he really dominated for only 1 year when Terran was the strongest race by far. After that he went to Europe to win 1 WCS and retire... Not top 10 in my book.
On February 20 2024 07:36 Waxangel wrote: Dark fan riot starts now
I'm rioting !!
I'm joining the Dark > Rogue train to cope
I'm not even a fan of Taeja but i feel "widely considered to be GOAT until 2017" just isn't true, if we're talking about majority opinion. And in the Innovation article, it said Innovation and MVP were "top 2 GOAT candidate during first half of SC2". Opinions aside, that's just not accurate, at least half of people felt Taeja > MVP, it would have been better to just say that Inno MVP Taeja were top 3 GOAT candidates (not counting Life ofc).
Also I agree with the sentiment that class is permanent, form is temporary, but to me that just means that people who prove they can keep their form at the top level are just that much more impressive than those who don't. Nestea couldn't do it, for example. I woulda been OK with Inno #4 and MVP #5, but seemingly putting Dark (or Rogue) below soO, TY, and Rain is just really weird to me xD.
Just my opinion though. As a sOs fan I'll take it cus it means sOs is above Dark which is pretty sick. I felt he was too low on the 2015 TL list.
On February 20 2024 08:24 Comedy wrote: I think mvp's wol's accomplishments are vastly overrated. He won a lot of Code S, but, he lost in so many Code S as well. How many Code S were there per year? How many MLG's, homestory cups, and other various international event did he lose in, even against mediocre players?
He mostly got smacked anytime he went overseas besides that one IEM..I don't think that Mvp was ever really as scary as someone like innovation or dark, who put fear in the hearts of their opponents, and made it seem like no foreigner could ever touch them.
Mvp was a series preparation specialist, did really well in GSL, but failed to ever look like truly the best player in WoL besides choosing builds really well.
If you read the article you would see that this is all objectively, provably false lmao
Mvp was the most dominant player in the most competetive era, where everyone was still hyped about the game and finding the best strategies & mastering them. At least as far as korean SC2 goes, the first 3 yeas were more meaningful than the last 6 years of SC2 in my eyes. So I got no problems with Mvp being on the list, I might even agree with him being on the 4th spot thinking about it. I say Rogue gets #3 cause of his achievements.
On February 20 2024 07:36 Waxangel wrote: Dark fan riot starts now
I'm rioting !!
I'm joining the Dark > Rogue train to cope
I'm not even a fan of Taeja but i feel "widely considered to be GOAT until 2017" just isn't true, if we're talking about majority opinion. And in the Innovation article, it said Innovation and MVP were "top 2 GOAT candidate during first half of SC2". Opinions aside, that's just not accurate, at least half of people felt Taeja > MVP, it would have been better to just say that Inno MVP Taeja were top 3 GOAT candidates (not counting Life ofc).
Also I agree with the sentiment that class is permanent, form is temporary, but to me that just means that people who prove they can keep their form at the top level are just that much more impressive than those who don't. Nestea couldn't do it, for example. I woulda been OK with Inno #4 and MVP #5, but seemingly putting Dark (or Rogue) below soO, TY, and Rain is just really weird to me xD.
Just my opinion though. As a sOs fan I'll take it cus it means sOs is above Dark which is pretty sick. I felt he was too low on the 2015 TL list.
I hate to tell you, but there was an actual big fan poll in 2017 as a result of Inno winning Code S in which he was 1/2 with mvp (I forget who was first). This was a huge discussion at the time since Inno's Code S win meant he won more KIL than Mvp. And, as someone who was there, not only on the forums, but writing lots of stuff as well, at no point did anyone bring up TaeJa in those discussions. In fact, I'm astonished some people still rate him so highly when Stuchiu (who notoriously favored those foreign weekenders) didn't have him at one or two and since TaeJa retired he has obviously been jumped by at least Maru, Serral and Rogue, not to mention he was already behind Mvp according to Stuchiu.
Your revisionist history and inaccurate citations are not as fun as they once were.
On February 20 2024 08:24 Comedy wrote: I think mvp's wol's accomplishments are vastly overrated. He won a lot of Code S, but, he lost in so many Code S as well. How many Code S were there per year? How many MLG's, homestory cups, and other various international event did he lose in, even against mediocre players?
He mostly got smacked anytime he went overseas besides that one IEM..I don't think that Mvp was ever really as scary as someone like innovation or dark, who put fear in the hearts of their opponents, and made it seem like no foreigner could ever touch them.
Mvp was a series preparation specialist, did really well in GSL, but failed to ever look like truly the best player in WoL besides choosing builds really well.
I mean he didn’t, there’s plenty of numbers in the article laying that out.
The only argument against Mvp is he had those numbers and was smacking fools around because the level overall wasn’t as high. But he does have the numbers in those events.
Mvp was never actively bad at the prep or the tactical side of things (hello MKP), but he initially didn’t need it either. There was a period where he was the Innovation of his day and he’d just stomp you mechanically. Maybe Bomber could pump out a few more units with his macro, or MKP dance some bio around, MMA be dropping everywhere, but Mvp was like an 8/9 out of 10 at all of these things and the best Terran mechanically for a relatively long time.
He became reliant on it when injuries mounted for sure, when he entered his old man Mvp state
On February 20 2024 09:09 FFXthebest wrote: MVP probably most overrated player in the history of SC2.
Won most of his championship during the terran op Era
To majority of the fanbaseme, his most iconic moment was his Mass BC’s getting crushed. None of his other games really stood out or are memorable
Fixed it for you sir. Nothing wrong with having an opinion but unless there’s some numbers to back it up, probably don’t make out it’s some wider consensus.
Mvp cheddaring Squirtle only to have him defend it well, only for him to then blunder and have Mvp pull the only move to give him a win condition is close to as memorable, and it’s from the same series.
Old man Mvp, who at this point had changed his entire style due to injury and going all the way to the final set of Code S against the best of the next generation in Life was pretty hype for many of us.
Old man Mvp in one of his last hurrahs, down to 9 workers at one point and digging in and taking Innovation to match point in a WCS Finals is an all-time great TvT set for many. What made it especially great is that while Innovation made mistakes (nobody doesn’t in a game of SC2), he didn’t throw the game or make some gigantic blunder. It was Mvp forcing minor errors and clawing his way back with some of the greatest decision-making you’ll ever see.
On February 20 2024 09:09 FFXthebest wrote: MVP probably most overrated player in the history of SC2.
Won most of his championship during the terran op Era
To majority of the fanbaseme, his most iconic moment was his Mass BC’s getting crushed. None of his other games really stood out or are memorable
Fixed it for you sir. Nothing wrong with having an opinion but unless there’s some numbers to back it up, probably don’t make out it’s some wider consensus.
Mvp cheddaring Squirtle only to have him defend it well, only for him to then blunder and have Mvp pull the only move to give him a win condition is close to as memorable, and it’s from the same series.
Old man Mvp, who at this point had changed his entire style due to injury and going all the way to the final set of Code S against the best of the next generation in Life was pretty hype for many of us.
Old man Mvp in one of his last hurrahs, down to 9 workers at one point and digging in and taking Innovation to match point in a WCS Finals is an all-time great TvT set for many. What made it especially great is that while Innovation made mistakes (nobody doesn’t in a game of SC2), he didn’t throw the game or make some gigantic blunder. It was Mvp forcing minor errors and clawing his way back with some of the greatest decision-making you’ll ever see.
Everyone remembers game seven in that series. That's one of the greatest games ever because of the context. Although, I wonder how he felt the next day considering his teammates were throwing him in the air while he had back issues.
On February 20 2024 09:09 FFXthebest wrote: MVP probably most overrated player in the history of SC2.
Won most of his championship during the terran op Era
To majority of the fanbaseme, his most iconic moment was his Mass BC’s getting crushed. None of his other games really stood out or are memorable
Fixed it for you sir. Nothing wrong with having an opinion but unless there’s some numbers to back it up, probably don’t make out it’s some wider consensus.
Mvp cheddaring Squirtle only to have him defend it well, only for him to then blunder and have Mvp pull the only move to give him a win condition is close to as memorable, and it’s from the same series.
Old man Mvp, who at this point had changed his entire style due to injury and going all the way to the final set of Code S against the best of the next generation in Life was pretty hype for many of us.
Old man Mvp in one of his last hurrahs, down to 9 workers at one point and digging in and taking Innovation to match point in a WCS Finals is an all-time great TvT set for many. What made it especially great is that while Innovation made mistakes (nobody doesn’t in a game of SC2), he didn’t throw the game or make some gigantic blunder. It was Mvp forcing minor errors and clawing his way back with some of the greatest decision-making you’ll ever see.
Everyone remembers game seven in that series. That's one of the greatest games ever because of the context. Although, I wonder how he felt the next day considering his teammates were throwing him in the air while he had back issues.
It's astonishing you remember all the little details though. If you write a book about SC2 history, you have a buyer.
On February 20 2024 07:36 Waxangel wrote: Dark fan riot starts now
I'm rioting !!
I'm joining the Dark > Rogue train to cope
I'm not even a fan of Taeja but i feel "widely considered to be GOAT until 2017" just isn't true, if we're talking about majority opinion. And in the Innovation article, it said Innovation and MVP were "top 2 GOAT candidate during first half of SC2". Opinions aside, that's just not accurate, at least half of people felt Taeja > MVP, it would have been better to just say that Inno MVP Taeja were top 3 GOAT candidates (not counting Life ofc).
Also I agree with the sentiment that class is permanent, form is temporary, but to me that just means that people who prove they can keep their form at the top level are just that much more impressive than those who don't. Nestea couldn't do it, for example. I woulda been OK with Inno #4 and MVP #5, but seemingly putting Dark (or Rogue) below soO, TY, and Rain is just really weird to me xD.
Just my opinion though. As a sOs fan I'll take it cus it means sOs is above Dark which is pretty sick. I felt he was too low on the 2015 TL list.
I hate to tell you, but there was an actual big fan poll in 2017 as a result of Inno winning Code S in which he was 1/2 with mvp (I forget who was first). This was a huge discussion at the time since Inno's Code S win meant he won more KIL than Mvp. And, as someone who was there, not only on the forums, but writing lots of stuff as well, at no point did anyone bring up TaeJa in those discussions. In fact, I'm astonished some people still rate him so highly when Stuchiu (who notoriously favored those foreign weekenders) didn't have him at one or two and since TaeJa retired he has obviously been jumped by at least Maru, Serral and Rogue, not to mention he was already behind Mvp according to Stuchiu.
Your revisionist history and inaccurate citations are not as fun as they once were.
You're twisting the wording a bit again, and I only use "revisionist history" to tease because you set the bar there and used those words when responding to someone else.
First, I'll say that I interpreted "first half of SC2" to be WoL to HotS as I forgot LotV came out as early as 2015, so if first half of SC2 includes up to Innovation's 2017 win, then I'm fine with not mentioning Taeja as a "top 3 goat until 2017".
But saying that MVP is "widely considered to be GOAT until 2017" paints a picture that he was the popular #1 choice for people from 2010 to 2017. Which isn't true, as there were some decent periods where players like Taeja (and Life) were pretty popular choices for GOAT, or rated above MVP. What if more people considered Innovation to be the GOAT than MVP in 2016 for example?
Even before Inno's 2017 GSL win, there were many who saw that Innovation was already the GOAT and that he racked up more/better tournament achievements than MVP, and your claim doesn't illustrate that. It implies that the majority of people considered MVP > Innovation until Innovation won more KIL. At the worst, you could argue or find evidence that popular sentiment might have been roughly even between the 2 players, since after all the main part of both their resumes (KIL) were equal.
If you want to refer mainly to the 2017 fan poll (wasn't aware, but that's cool if it happened, I assume it was on TL?), then i think it would have been a more responsible statement to say "Top 2 GOAT as voted by 2017 fan poll". The part where you're injecting your opinion and making a claim is when you go from that to "widely considered to be GOAT until 2017". Wouldn't you also need polls to back up that claim showing that other players weren't considered the GOAT throughout the years, and that it was only MVP?
I also remember that when people were comparing MVP and Innovation in 2017, one thing you have to keep in mind is that the comparison between them was highly discussed at the time not necessarily because there weren't other people who considered players like sOs to be #2, but because MVP was the only remaining player whose strongest part of their resume (KIL wins) matched Innovation's in the same metric, and Innovation surpassing that metric only made it even clearer.
Stuchiu may not have had him at #1-2, but he was #3 right behind MVP/Life, and above Inno on both the SC2 GOAT and HotS GOAT lists. I was around at the time too and I remember there being a decent amount of people feeling that MVP was overrated due to WoL nostalgia and that Life should have been ranked above him, with some (but less people) arguing that he should be below Taeja. At the time people felt that Life surpassed MVP, and Taeja was Life's biggest rival.
Also just as a sOs fan, wanted to remind people for fun that I remember the narrative the GSL and Tastosis built was that the the winner between Inno vs sOs could claim GOAT. Of course it was partially for hype but sOs had an insane 3x WC, and a GSL win over Inno would have made his case for GOAT one that would need to be taken seriously. Meanwhile Inno would have stopped sOs from challenging his case for GOAT, and cement himself 100% clearly above MVP. Very similar to how Serral is already widely considered GOAT, but beating Maru at Kato stopped Maru from challenging it.
On February 20 2024 09:09 FFXthebest wrote: MVP probably most overrated player in the history of SC2.
Won most of his championship during the terran op Era
To majority of the fanbaseme, his most iconic moment was his Mass BC’s getting crushed. None of his other games really stood out or are memorable
Fixed it for you sir. Nothing wrong with having an opinion but unless there’s some numbers to back it up, probably don’t make out it’s some wider consensus.
Mvp cheddaring Squirtle only to have him defend it well, only for him to then blunder and have Mvp pull the only move to give him a win condition is close to as memorable, and it’s from the same series.
Old man Mvp, who at this point had changed his entire style due to injury and going all the way to the final set of Code S against the best of the next generation in Life was pretty hype for many of us.
Old man Mvp in one of his last hurrahs, down to 9 workers at one point and digging in and taking Innovation to match point in a WCS Finals is an all-time great TvT set for many. What made it especially great is that while Innovation made mistakes (nobody doesn’t in a game of SC2), he didn’t throw the game or make some gigantic blunder. It was Mvp forcing minor errors and clawing his way back with some of the greatest decision-making you’ll ever see.
Everyone remembers game seven in that series. That's one of the greatest games ever because of the context. Although, I wonder how he felt the next day considering his teammates were throwing him in the air while he had back issues.
It's astonishing you remember all the little details though. If you write a book about SC2 history, you have a buyer.
That's one of the kindest things anyone has said to me on the site. I really appreciate it. A lot of the credit also goes to Wax, who filled in the gaps, held me to a super high standard and was an incredible editor throughout the process.
On February 20 2024 07:36 Waxangel wrote: Dark fan riot starts now
I'm rioting !!
I'm joining the Dark > Rogue train to cope
I'm not even a fan of Taeja but i feel "widely considered to be GOAT until 2017" just isn't true, if we're talking about majority opinion. And in the Innovation article, it said Innovation and MVP were "top 2 GOAT candidate during first half of SC2". Opinions aside, that's just not accurate, at least half of people felt Taeja > MVP, it would have been better to just say that Inno MVP Taeja were top 3 GOAT candidates (not counting Life ofc).
Also I agree with the sentiment that class is permanent, form is temporary, but to me that just means that people who prove they can keep their form at the top level are just that much more impressive than those who don't. Nestea couldn't do it, for example. I woulda been OK with Inno #4 and MVP #5, but seemingly putting Dark (or Rogue) below soO, TY, and Rain is just really weird to me xD.
Just my opinion though. As a sOs fan I'll take it cus it means sOs is above Dark which is pretty sick. I felt he was too low on the 2015 TL list.
I hate to tell you, but there was an actual big fan poll in 2017 as a result of Inno winning Code S in which he was 1/2 with mvp (I forget who was first). This was a huge discussion at the time since Inno's Code S win meant he won more KIL than Mvp. And, as someone who was there, not only on the forums, but writing lots of stuff as well, at no point did anyone bring up TaeJa in those discussions. In fact, I'm astonished some people still rate him so highly when Stuchiu (who notoriously favored those foreign weekenders) didn't have him at one or two and since TaeJa retired he has obviously been jumped by at least Maru, Serral and Rogue, not to mention he was already behind Mvp according to Stuchiu.
Your revisionist history and inaccurate citations are not as fun as they once were.
You're twisting the wording a bit again, and I only use "revisionist history" to tease because you set the bar there and used those words when responding to someone else.
First, I'll say that I interpreted "first half of SC2" to be WoL to HotS as I forgot LotV came out as early as 2015, so if first half of SC2 includes up to Innovation's 2017 win, then I'm fine with not mentioning Taeja as a "top 3 goat until 2017".
But saying that MVP is "widely considered to be GOAT until 2017" paints a picture that he was the popular #1 choice for people from 2010 to 2017. Which isn't true, as there were some decent periods where players like Taeja (and Life) were pretty popular choices for GOAT, or rated above MVP. What if more people considered Innovation to be the GOAT than MVP in 2016 for example?
Even before Inno's 2017 GSL win, there were many who saw that Innovation was already the GOAT and that he racked up more/better tournament achievements than MVP, and your claim doesn't illustrate that. It implies that the majority of people considered MVP > Innovation until Innovation won more KIL. At the worst, you could argue or find evidence that popular sentiment might have been roughly even between the 2 players, since after all the main part of both their resumes (KIL) were equal.
If you want to refer mainly to the 2017 fan poll (wasn't aware, but that's cool if it happened, I assume it was on TL?), then i think it would have been a more responsible statement to say "Top 2 GOAT as voted by 2017 fan poll". The part where you're injecting your opinion and making a claim is when you go from that to "widely considered to be GOAT until 2017". Wouldn't you also need polls to back up that claim showing that other players weren't considered the GOAT throughout the years, and that it was only MVP?
I also remember that when people were comparing MVP and Innovation in 2017, one thing you have to keep in mind is that the comparison between them was highly discussed at the time not necessarily because there weren't other people who considered players like sOs to be #2, but because MVP was the only remaining player whose strongest part of their resume (KIL wins) matched Innovation's, and was the only obstacle left for Innovation being the uncontested GOAT. It wasn't necessarily because everyone felt that MVP was top 2, though many people did of course.
Stuchiu may not have had him at #1-2, but he was #3 right behind MVP/Life, and above Inno on both the SC2 GOAT and HotS GOAT lists. I was around at the time too and I remember there being a decent amount of people feeling that MVP was overrated due to WoL nostalgia and that Life should have been ranked above him, with some (but less people) arguing that he should be below Taeja.
I was harsh. That's a solid response. I think a lot of people either really overate or underrate TaeJa and I'm sometimes not sure which I am. I remember when he came back to Korea in 2016. The general Korean take on TaeJa was that he was a loser who went to beat bad white people because he couldn't win in SK. He played some pretty solid games against Zest, however, in Code S (this was the season when Zest went 18-3 or whatever) and the fact that he gave Zest one of his toughest tests changed the perception some.
On February 20 2024 09:09 FFXthebest wrote: MVP probably most overrated player in the history of SC2.
Won most of his championship during the terran op Era
To majority of the fanbaseme, his most iconic moment was his Mass BC’s getting crushed. None of his other games really stood out or are memorable
Fixed it for you sir. Nothing wrong with having an opinion but unless there’s some numbers to back it up, probably don’t make out it’s some wider consensus.
Mvp cheddaring Squirtle only to have him defend it well, only for him to then blunder and have Mvp pull the only move to give him a win condition is close to as memorable, and it’s from the same series.
Old man Mvp, who at this point had changed his entire style due to injury and going all the way to the final set of Code S against the best of the next generation in Life was pretty hype for many of us.
Old man Mvp in one of his last hurrahs, down to 9 workers at one point and digging in and taking Innovation to match point in a WCS Finals is an all-time great TvT set for many. What made it especially great is that while Innovation made mistakes (nobody doesn’t in a game of SC2), he didn’t throw the game or make some gigantic blunder. It was Mvp forcing minor errors and clawing his way back with some of the greatest decision-making you’ll ever see.
Everyone remembers game seven in that series. That's one of the greatest games ever because of the context. Although, I wonder how he felt the next day considering his teammates were throwing him in the air while he had back issues.
It's astonishing you remember all the little details though. If you write a book about SC2 history, you have a buyer.
That's one of the kindest things anyone has said to me on the site. I really appreciate it. A lot of the credit also goes to Wax, who filled in the gaps, held me to a super high standard and was an incredible editor throughout the process.
Thanks ! It's only natural. We all love to curse and whine at times, but deep down I think many are incredibly appreciative of how much time and thought you share with us out of passion for the game we all love.
The distance between Mvp and whoever the second best player was in WoL is really absurd. Nestea, MC, Leenock, MMA, DRG, Taeja all have missing factors in their WoL results that make them nowhere near him imo. Not even sure who else would be a candidate. His dominance of such a volatile era was so impressive. People use the game not being figured out and some of his early eliminations against him but I think the extreme volatility of that era makes his results even more impressive.
On February 20 2024 07:36 Waxangel wrote: Dark fan riot starts now
I'm rioting !!
I'm joining the Dark > Rogue train to cope
I'm not even a fan of Taeja but i feel "widely considered to be GOAT until 2017" just isn't true, if we're talking about majority opinion. And in the Innovation article, it said Innovation and MVP were "top 2 GOAT candidate during first half of SC2". Opinions aside, that's just not accurate, at least half of people felt Taeja > MVP, it would have been better to just say that Inno MVP Taeja were top 3 GOAT candidates (not counting Life ofc).
Also I agree with the sentiment that class is permanent, form is temporary, but to me that just means that people who prove they can keep their form at the top level are just that much more impressive than those who don't. Nestea couldn't do it, for example. I woulda been OK with Inno #4 and MVP #5, but seemingly putting Dark (or Rogue) below soO, TY, and Rain is just really weird to me xD.
Just my opinion though. As a sOs fan I'll take it cus it means sOs is above Dark which is pretty sick. I felt he was too low on the 2015 TL list.
I hate to tell you, but there was an actual big fan poll in 2017 as a result of Inno winning Code S in which he was 1/2 with mvp (I forget who was first). This was a huge discussion at the time since Inno's Code S win meant he won more KIL than Mvp. And, as someone who was there, not only on the forums, but writing lots of stuff as well, at no point did anyone bring up TaeJa in those discussions. In fact, I'm astonished some people still rate him so highly when Stuchiu (who notoriously favored those foreign weekenders) didn't have him at one or two and since TaeJa retired he has obviously been jumped by at least Maru, Serral and Rogue, not to mention he was already behind Mvp according to Stuchiu.
Your revisionist history and inaccurate citations are not as fun as they once were.
You're twisting the wording a bit again, and I only use "revisionist history" to tease because you set the bar there and used those words when responding to someone else.
First, I'll say that I interpreted "first half of SC2" to be WoL to HotS as I forgot LotV came out as early as 2015, so if first half of SC2 includes up to Innovation's 2017 win, then I'm fine with not mentioning Taeja as a "top 3 goat until 2017".
But saying that MVP is "widely considered to be GOAT until 2017" paints a picture that he was the popular #1 choice for people from 2010 to 2017. Which isn't true, as there were some decent periods where players like Taeja (and Life) were pretty popular choices for GOAT, or rated above MVP. What if more people considered Innovation to be the GOAT than MVP in 2016 for example?
Even before Inno's 2017 GSL win, there were many who saw that Innovation was already the GOAT and that he racked up more/better tournament achievements than MVP, and your claim doesn't illustrate that. It implies that the majority of people considered MVP > Innovation until Innovation won more KIL. At the worst, you could argue or find evidence that popular sentiment might have been roughly even between the 2 players, since after all the main part of both their resumes (KIL) were equal.
If you want to refer mainly to the 2017 fan poll (wasn't aware, but that's cool if it happened, I assume it was on TL?), then i think it would have been a more responsible statement to say "Top 2 GOAT as voted by 2017 fan poll". The part where you're injecting your opinion and making a claim is when you go from that to "widely considered to be GOAT until 2017". Wouldn't you also need polls to back up that claim showing that other players weren't considered the GOAT throughout the years, and that it was only MVP?
I also remember that when people were comparing MVP and Innovation in 2017, one thing you have to keep in mind is that the comparison between them was highly discussed at the time not necessarily because there weren't other people who considered players like sOs to be #2, but because MVP was the only remaining player whose strongest part of their resume (KIL wins) matched Innovation's, and was the only obstacle left for Innovation being the uncontested GOAT. It wasn't necessarily because everyone felt that MVP was top 2, though many people did of course.
Stuchiu may not have had him at #1-2, but he was #3 right behind MVP/Life, and above Inno on both the SC2 GOAT and HotS GOAT lists. I was around at the time too and I remember there being a decent amount of people feeling that MVP was overrated due to WoL nostalgia and that Life should have been ranked above him, with some (but less people) arguing that he should be below Taeja.
I was harsh. That's a solid response. I think a lot of people either really overate or underrate TaeJa and I'm sometimes not sure which I am. I remember when he came back to Korea in 2016. The general Korean take on TaeJa was that he was a loser who went to beat bad white people because he couldn't win in SK. He played some pretty solid games against Zest, however, in Code S (this was the season when Zest went 18-3 or whatever) and the fact that he gave Zest one of his toughest tests changed the perception some.
I have made it my life’s ambition to be the first to accurately rate Taeja.
Yeah looking through his record doing my ‘research’ :p He made a playoff placement in Code S, back when that was more noteworthy, way later than I’d thought.
I think it’s incomplete as I vividly remember him playing a very impressive series against Dark, after he’d apparently retired for good a heroic losing effort ultimately but you got that glimpse of what he was capable of. Or perhaps I’m getting so old that I’m getting my timeline mixed up and it was way less recent than I thought!
Considering that either Dark or Rogue will have to be left off of this list (leaving off Maru/Serral would be so deeply deranged that it barely warrants mention) I find this placement to be extraordinarily disappointing. I would argue that, if you were going to include him at all, Mvp is number 10 considering who has been placed here already.
This is such a weird blind spot for me. I didn't watch this period of SC2 competitively at all and while I'd heard his name I had no idea that Mvp was as dominant as this in the early years or even that he was a major figure. I think I was still only paying attention to BW at this point. But it's a really specific blind spot because I recognized basically all the other names as being major early SC2 figures, just not The Guy.
Don't know how it happened anyway, but it did make this a nice history lesson for me.
On February 20 2024 10:59 Mumei wrote: This is such a weird blind spot for me. I didn't watch this period of SC2 competitively at all and while I'd heard his name I had no idea that Mvp was as dominant as this in the early years or even that he was a major figure. I think I was still only paying attention to BW at this point. But it's a really specific blind spot because I recognized basically all the other names as being major early SC2 figures, just not The Guy.
Don't know how it happened anyway, but it did make this a nice history lesson for me.
The general conceit of the Mvp case is: You know he was good, but you forgot how good!
On February 20 2024 07:36 Waxangel wrote: Dark fan riot starts now
I'm rioting !!
I'm joining the Dark > Rogue train to cope
I'm not even a fan of Taeja but i feel "widely considered to be GOAT until 2017" just isn't true, if we're talking about majority opinion. And in the Innovation article, it said Innovation and MVP were "top 2 GOAT candidate during first half of SC2". Opinions aside, that's just not accurate, at least half of people felt Taeja > MVP, it would have been better to just say that Inno MVP Taeja were top 3 GOAT candidates (not counting Life ofc).
Also I agree with the sentiment that class is permanent, form is temporary, but to me that just means that people who prove they can keep their form at the top level are just that much more impressive than those who don't. Nestea couldn't do it, for example. I woulda been OK with Inno #4 and MVP #5, but seemingly putting Dark (or Rogue) below soO, TY, and Rain is just really weird to me xD.
Just my opinion though. As a sOs fan I'll take it cus it means sOs is above Dark which is pretty sick. I felt he was too low on the 2015 TL list.
I hate to tell you, but there was an actual big fan poll in 2017 as a result of Inno winning Code S in which he was 1/2 with mvp (I forget who was first). This was a huge discussion at the time since Inno's Code S win meant he won more KIL than Mvp. And, as someone who was there, not only on the forums, but writing lots of stuff as well, at no point did anyone bring up TaeJa in those discussions. In fact, I'm astonished some people still rate him so highly when Stuchiu (who notoriously favored those foreign weekenders) didn't have him at one or two and since TaeJa retired he has obviously been jumped by at least Maru, Serral and Rogue, not to mention he was already behind Mvp according to Stuchiu.
Your revisionist history and inaccurate citations are not as fun as they once were.
You're twisting the wording a bit again, and I only use "revisionist history" to tease because you set the bar there and used those words when responding to someone else.
First, I'll say that I interpreted "first half of SC2" to be WoL to HotS as I forgot LotV came out as early as 2015, so if first half of SC2 includes up to Innovation's 2017 win, then I'm fine with not mentioning Taeja as a "top 3 goat until 2017".
But saying that MVP is "widely considered to be GOAT until 2017" paints a picture that he was the popular #1 choice for people from 2010 to 2017. Which isn't true, as there were some decent periods where players like Taeja (and Life) were pretty popular choices for GOAT, or rated above MVP. What if more people considered Innovation to be the GOAT than MVP in 2016 for example?
Even before Inno's 2017 GSL win, there were many who saw that Innovation was already the GOAT and that he racked up more/better tournament achievements than MVP, and your claim doesn't illustrate that. It implies that the majority of people considered MVP > Innovation until Innovation won more KIL. At the worst, you could argue or find evidence that popular sentiment might have been roughly even between the 2 players, since after all the main part of both their resumes (KIL) were equal.
If you want to refer mainly to the 2017 fan poll (wasn't aware, but that's cool if it happened, I assume it was on TL?), then i think it would have been a more responsible statement to say "Top 2 GOAT as voted by 2017 fan poll". The part where you're injecting your opinion and making a claim is when you go from that to "widely considered to be GOAT until 2017". Wouldn't you also need polls to back up that claim showing that other players weren't considered the GOAT throughout the years, and that it was only MVP?
I also remember that when people were comparing MVP and Innovation in 2017, one thing you have to keep in mind is that the comparison between them was highly discussed at the time not necessarily because there weren't other people who considered players like sOs to be #2, but because MVP was the only remaining player whose strongest part of their resume (KIL wins) matched Innovation's in the same metric, and Innovation surpassing that metric only made it even clearer.
Stuchiu may not have had him at #1-2, but he was #3 right behind MVP/Life, and above Inno on both the SC2 GOAT and HotS GOAT lists. I was around at the time too and I remember there being a decent amount of people feeling that MVP was overrated due to WoL nostalgia and that Life should have been ranked above him, with some (but less people) arguing that he should be below Taeja. At the time people felt that Life surpassed MVP, and Taeja was Life's biggest rival.
Also just as a sOs fan, wanted to remind people for fun that I remember the narrative the GSL and Tastosis built was that the the winner between Inno vs sOs could claim GOAT. Of course it was partially for hype but sOs had an insane 3x WC, and a GSL win over Inno would have made his case for GOAT one that would need to be taken seriously. Meanwhile Inno would have stopped sOs from challenging his case for GOAT, and cement himself 100% clearly above MVP. Very similar to how Serral is already widely considered GOAT, but beating Maru at Kato stopped Maru from challenging it.
Literally nobody at the time genuinely considered TaeJa to be a GOAT candidate, come on now. Stu copped a lot of shit and was accused of Liquid bias to the point it was a meme for the next couple of years for putting TaeJa that high on his GOAT list.
Nobody would argue against the fact that TaeJa was the best player at foreign tournaments, and that 2 year period was the real deal and incredibly impressive. People had their eye on him, but without a GSL win to his name nobody on the planet was going to call him GOAT unless you were one of the weirdos who valued foreign tournaments just as much as Korean ones.
It's sort of like an early version of the Serral argument, where a player is dominant in foreign tournaments, but lacks the results in Korea. Serral solidified his claim by continuing to dominate foreign tournaments for a longer period than TaeJa did (and in much bigger, more important tournaments), and additionally the Korean scene even in 2018 was a pale imitation of how competitive it was in HotS, so getting that GSL win was nowhere near as impressive or important.
Take nothing away from TaeJa, that 2013/2014 is one of the greatest runs any player went on. But it always had that big asterisk next to it. Even back then people were getting into this exact argument.
Mvp vs Life was the real big debate, as you mentioned.
I never understand why that one comeback against Innovation was brought up so much, almost as part of his claim for GOAT ranking. It's very impressive but it's just one game, in a series that he eventually lost. Each player at this caliber have multiple extremely impressive games like this.
MVP deserves a placement in the middle of this list. He should probably be a little lower since his match/game win percentages aren't that exceptional considering his weaker competition but he's got the tournament wins to make it a nitpick.
Though by disregarding the eras weakness, I'm now sensing that Serral is 99% miz's goat. Can't dock Serral down for that now.
Taeja is not considered GOAT candidate for good reason, but I will always lament how he gets disrespected by Koreans. Before his first retirement, he held a winning record against Innovation, Life and Zest, even records against Mvp and sOs, some of biggest GOAT candidates at his time. His peak rivals anyone not named Serral and Maru. Summer of Taeja for three years straight are still some of the most legendary runs in SC2 history for me.
Unfortunately he's just not consistent enough to bring it all the way in a GSL format, probably partially due to injury reason. I am sad that his prime years doesn't overlap with LotV because it definitely suits his style better.
On February 20 2024 11:28 Nasigil wrote: I never understand why that one comeback against Innovation was brought up so much, almost as part of his claim for GOAT ranking. It's very impressive but it's just one game, in a series that he eventually lost. Each player at this caliber have multiple extremely impressive games like this.
Because the greater story and narrative at the time adds so much to it. It was the greatest single game comeback in SC2 history. It's one thing when you've got like, Mvp vs Elazer. Now was that an impressive comeback? Sure, but Mvp is expected to win against Elazer. It's very different when the insane comeback happens against a player he is massively, massively outclassed by. One of the game's most legendary and memorable moments.
To quote Handwerk Reviews (https://handwerkreviews.wordpress.com/), a writer I truly admire. He's talking about a pro wrestler here, but every bit of it applies to Mvp too.
"Real sports are full of times when Our Heroes hit the wall, and cannot do the things they used to do anymore. They lost their lift up or their burst forward, and beyond winning, cannot do the things we’re used to seeing. As one of the greats and most frequently quoted pieces of work on this blog says, the cruel randomness of the sport is never in flukes, but in how much changes, and how quickly. It’s no fun, but you watch enough, and you get used to it as an inevitability, and a fact of life. Time’s arrow neither stands still nor reverses, it only marches forward. Nobody catches it, but for a moment at the end, Hiroshi Tanahashi is able to keep pace with it, like nobody else can."
For the year 2011, he actually got outperformed in GSL by Nestea (who had an amazing year too - he ended up with more GSL points than MVP). Some of the wins for MVP on this list are actually not as impressive as they look, namely:
2011 Blizzcon invitational (He only had to beat nestea and sen) 2011 WCG (He beat Kas, Bling, Xigua) 2012 IEM Cologne (Only foreigners, however beating vortix and nerchio is still pretty good.) 2011 GSL world championship. (An invitational where the competition really wasn't very strong - and he lost to Dimaga in the Korea vs the World event.)
I do think his 2011 MLG Anaheim win is pretty nice, although it was the blueflame tournament where terrans rekt everything, he still came out on top amongst the korean terrans.
His code S wins are of course impressive, but they are all won before the kespa teams switched, and almost all of his opponents, healthy or unhealthy, quickly proved that they weren't able to keep up with kespa players within a year or so of them having swapped over. The people that mvp beat to get his wins really wouldn't do much of anything after the kespa teams made the switch.
Now of course I think MVP is a great player - and the undisputed best player of wings - although nestea and mc were trailing pretty closely behind.) I may also be biased, because I actually played mvp twice in offline events, and won both times. For some reason going into a game with Mvp really wasn't that scary as it was going into a game with MMA, or MC. He was a very good player but it always felt like there would be chances, even as a foreigner, if you ran into him in these overseas events that he attended such as MLG, or homestory cup.
I really don't believe you can compare mvp's carreer to dark's and have mvp come out on top, I really thought dark would take #4, and mvp would fall just short of the top10, since the game has moved along so many years since 2012 and some of these players have shown incredibly longevity. Maybe if mvp had stayed healthy he would have had a chance to prove himself against kespa competition, but that never happend, and almost all those players he competed against showed themselves unable to do so. Someone like Dark is a real terror of starcraft 2 and for many years whenever watching a tournament and he'd be vs a foreigner, you just knew he would never lose. It never quite felt that way with Mvp.
I agree with Ret above, a lot of Mvp's tournament wins are really not that impressive once you dig in and actually see the games he played to win. Some are very short, some are against foreigners that was massively behind Koreans at the time, some are within the most broken GomTvT era. His greatest achievement was the one GSL win against Squirtle and one runner-up against Life.
He does get extra nostalgia points for being a former GOAT and a pioneer at figuring the game out during the first couple years. In hindsight his peak and overall career was really short, it's really just that one and half year, it didn't feel like it because back at 2012 that's just the entirety of SC2's lifespan, but 12 years later, there are many player that has passed him in terms of overall achievement. I'd definitely put Dark and Innovation above Mvp.
On February 20 2024 11:45 Nasigil wrote: Taeja is not considered GOAT candidate for good reason, but I will always lament how he gets disrespected by Koreans. Before his first retirement, he held a winning record against Innovation, Life and Zest, even records against Mvp and sOs, some of biggest GOAT candidates at his time. His peak rivals anyone not named Serral and Maru. Summer of Taeja for three years straight are still some of the most legendary runs in SC2 history for me.
Damn I didn't know he had winning records against all those players,m even if it's only slightly or small sample size, it's something to be very proud of for sure. I miss the Summer of Taeja meme now that you mention it ;(
Also hmm you're right, LotV's more spread out gameplay and multitasking (and higher skill ceiling I'd say because of those things) might have allowed players like Taeja to thrive even more.
On February 20 2024 11:54 Liquid`Ret wrote: For the year 2011, he actually got outperformed in GSL by Nestea (who had an amazing year too - he ended up with more GSL points than MVP). Some of the wins for MVP on this list are actually not as impressive as they look, namely:
2011 Blizzcon invitational (He only had to beat nestea and sen) 2011 WCG (He beat Kas, Bling, Xigua) 2012 IEM Cologne (Only foreigners, however beating vortix and nerchio is still pretty good.) 2011 GSL world championship. (An invitational where the competition really wasn't very strong - and he lost to Dimaga in the Korea vs the World event.)
I do think his 2011 MLG Anaheim win is pretty nice, although it was the blueflame tournament where terrans rekt everything, he still came out on top amongst the korean terrans.
His code S wins are of course impressive, but they are all won before the kespa teams switched, and almost all of his opponents, healthy or unhealthy, quickly proved that they weren't able to keep up with kespa players within a year or so of them having swapped over. The people that mvp beat to get his wins really wouldn't do much of anything after the kespa teams made the switch.
Now of course I think MVP is a great player - and the undisputed best player of wings - although nestea and mc were trailing pretty closely behind.) I may also be biased, because I actually played mvp twice in offline events, and won both times. For some reason going into a game with Mvp really wasn't that scary as it was going into a game with MMA, or MC. He was a very good player but it always felt like there would be chances, even as a foreigner, if you ran into him in these overseas events that he attended such as MLG, or homestory cup.
I really don't believe you can compare mvp's carreer to dark's and have mvp come out on top, I really thought dark would take #4, and mvp would fall just short of the top10, since the game has moved along so many years since 2012 and some of these players have shown incredibly longevity. Maybe if mvp had stayed healthy he would have had a chance to prove himself against kespa competition, but that never happend, and almost all those players he competed against showed themselves unable to do so. Someone like Dark is a real terror of starcraft 2 and for many years whenever watching a tournament and he'd be vs a foreigner, you just knew he would never lose. It never quite felt that way with Mvp.
Just my 2 cents.
Whoa, a rare Liquid Ret spotted !!
Interesting to hear your insights, your wins vs MVP were impressive and worth mentioning here. I did feel that Nestea during his peak year (before MVP started interferring with him hehe) was more invincible than MVP was, even though I'd consider MVP to have higher heights (due to besting Nestea in head to heads, though that could also be explained as Nestea peaking slightly earlier than MVP's, as seen by the timing of their GSL wins).
As a Nestea and MC fan and someone that's always felt that people perceive MVP to be too big of a gap above them, it's nice to hear someone feel Nestea and MC were trailing relatively close behind. I've often criticized MVP's high placements on people's lists throughout the years because I feel the same about many of the achievements he had that set him apart from Nestea/MC: they just weren't very competitive or impressive, besides MLG Anaheim which was crazy with all the TvT specialists trying their damn hardest to take MVP down (Boxer, MMA, Ryung, heck even Ganzi with the surprise strength vs MVP that tournament).
The "4 GSL win" thing is disingenuous first off even if that's what GSL said back then, because 1 of them wasn't a Code S, it was the "world championship" which had a bracket half of foreigners which were basically a free win at the time. And the 2011 Blizzcon Invitational is almost nothing because he beat 2 Zergs when the map pool was very outdated and TvZ favored, since they wanted to pick familiar maps that more casual and foreign fans would be familiar with instead of the more current maps tournaments were using. It was so painful trying to see Nestea do anything on Shattered Temple vs MVP. If it was a more fair map pool Nestea would have had a real chance of putting up a good match. I saw the Blizzcon Invitational as more of a fun little showmatch tournament, nothing serious, and I felt that vibe with the players and other spectators too.
I think all these little things - MVP peaking slightly after Nestea, beating Nestea at Blizzcon Invitational, racking up these 1st places (still nice but not super impressive, honestly anything less than 1st place at those tournaments would be bad for someone who won 3 Code S), his ballsy bunker rush vs Squirtle and genius marine flank to come back and win it all, his comeback game vs Innovation, etc. end up propelling him high above Nestea and MC in many's eyes, and for a "greatest" title these emotional factors definitely do hold a lot of merit and weight. Though purely career and achivements wise speaking, I always felt MC was only slightly behind MVP, and Nestea only slightly behind MC.
On February 20 2024 12:12 Nasigil wrote: He does get extra nostalgia points for being a former GOAT and a pioneer at figuring the game out during the first couple years. In hindsight his peak and overall career was really short, it's really just that one and half year, it didn't feel like it because back at 2012 that's just the entirety of SC2's lifespan, but 12 years later, there are many player that has passed him in terms of overall achievement. I'd definitely put Dark and Innovation above Mvp.
Aye, Terran was the most fleshed out and versatile race in WoL, and the most OP for the longest duration, IMO anyway. But I think many felt similarly about WoL. (Though it's totally fair to not account for balance, since that can get messy).
And yeah, it really was only about 1-1.5 years of peak dominance, and Nestea also had 1 year of peak dominance as well (with its end overlapping the beginning of MVP's). It's always a weird feeling looking back and realizing that LotV came out in 2015, and that WoL isn't "1/3" of the game's history. It's more like 1/5 of it, and MVP didn't even dominate all 3 years of WoL.
I always felt that one thing people forgot about Nestea's period of dominance is that he truly seemed invincible, in a time when Zerg was perceived to be weak (given the maps at the time, at least). Until he was stopped by MVP of course, but Nestea came back to win his 3rd GSL even after MVP. I felt that MVP had more ups and downs during his period, and showed weakness vs certain players (though this could be attributed to the scene quickly developing and becoming more competitive than in Nestea's slightly earlier time).
mvp was the best player at a time when the game was most popular in the public sphere, his accomplishments are now naturally outweighed by other players because his career is comparatively so short (mvp only played from 2010-2014 really, while Dark's been playing since 2014, Rogue from 2012, etc.).
to be the best player at a time when there were thousands of players joining the scene and incredible amounts of talent/new blood is no mean feat. that's not even considering how much of a revolutionary he was for the terran race (the first real macro terran).
Miz, I really appreciate your GOAT list write up, but I do find it a bit lacking in terms of the signature games listed in the end. In the old GOAT list in 2015 each player has like 20 games listed and you really could dive into them to get a grasp on how their play styles are like. This list just give you like 5 games, and often not even include some of their most iconic games.
Like how do you have an sOs article without listing his proxy Nexus against Bunny? Or Innovation's legendary WESG finals against Serral? Mvp one is okay tho. We need more games! Especially for whatever top 3 you are cooking up.
On February 20 2024 13:30 Nasigil wrote: Miz, I really appreciate your GOAT list write up, but I do find it a bit lacking in terms of the signature games listed in the end. In the old GOAT list in 2015 each player has like 20 games listed and you really could dive into them to get a grasp on how their play styles are like. This list just give you like 5 games, and often not even include some of their most iconic games.
Like how do you have an sOs article without listing his proxy Nexus against Bunny? Or Innovation's legendary WESG finals against Serral? Mvp one is okay tho. We need more games! Especially for whatever top 3 you are cooking up.
Just list every single match for Serral cus every game is top tier SC2. GOAT!
When you compare Mvp to most of the guys that came after him, including Dark, it does feel like his career was less impressive. He played for a short period of time against opponents that all fell off when those other guys came on.
But the first three years of SC2 were still SC2, you can't really be mad at someone ending up top 5 all time when they were the clear number 1 for 25% of the games history.
Hello Ret, thanks for chipping in with your perspective. Interesting to hear from someone who actually played against Mvp. But there is some stuff I would like to correct in your post.
On February 20 2024 11:54 Liquid`Ret wrote:
For the year 2011, he actually got outperformed in GSL by Nestea (who had an amazing year too - he ended up with more GSL points than MVP).
Not true, Mvp had more points by quite a large margin. One of NesTea's GSL wins was in 2010, and he lacked the additional final that Mvp had. Even if you completely strike Mvp's World Championship win points from him, he still comes out on top.
On February 20 2024 11:54 Liquid`Ret wrote: 2011 Blizzcon invitational (He only had to beat nestea and sen)
I don't think anyone will deny that this wasn't a particularly tough tournament, it's more impressive for Mvp's innovation of ghost play and subsequently single-handedly getting them nerfed. Also notable for being another decisive win over the #2 greatest player of the time.
On February 20 2024 11:54 Liquid`Ret wrote: 2011 WCG (He beat Kas, Bling, Xigua)
Again, I don't think anybody will deny the weakness of the field, but this was still a time when the WCG name carried prestige! Also, more importantly than the main tournament was the qualifiers, which Mvp finished 1st in. Again not the craziest thing in the world, but he again proves superiority over literally every other player in Korea.
On February 20 2024 11:54 Liquid`Ret wrote: 2012 IEM Cologne (Only foreigners, however beating vortix and nerchio is still pretty good.)
Hey, he beat NesTea and viOLet too. viOLet was in strong form at the time, and while it wasn't 2011 anymore, NesTea was still good. And I think most people view this tournament as a bonus. Just another trophy for the case, rather than any great accomplishment. But consider the scene at the time, it was the age of broodlord/infestor and Mvp is the ONLY Terran in the tournament to be consistently beating every Zerg in their path. Those foreigner names may not seem like that much in hindsight, but with broodlord/infestor behind them they were capable of beating any Terran in the world. BL/Infestor didn't play around.
On February 20 2024 11:54 Liquid`Ret wrote: 2011 GSL world championship. (An invitational where the competition really wasn't very strong - and he lost to Dimaga in the Korea vs the World event.)
Now THIS is one I'll fight back on every day of the week. Compared to a Code S, sure, the field isn't great. But look at the run Mvp had. He had a very difficult path to the title.
2-1 HuK (Code S Protoss, Top 5-10 in the world) 3-1 July (Previous season finalist, Top 3 Zerg) 3-1 San (Previous season semifinalist, Top 3 Protoss) 4-2 MarineKing (The 2nd best Terran in the world behind Mvp)
The weak players didn't even cross Mvp's path. It was tough enough that it could have been a Code S, minus a Ro32 group stage. As for the loss to DIMAGA in the team league, Mvp was never a great team league player, going 10-11 in GSTL all time. But even then, Mvp actually had DIMAGA beat. He had a pretty sizable advantage in a looooooong game on Tal'darim Altar but then there was a disconnect and the game had to be replayed. DIMAGA was the ace player for the world team, so if you accept the disconnect, the series just ends. Nobody wanted it to end like that, as at the end of the day it was a showmatch, and there was enough leeway where DIMAGA could possibly have comeback, however unlikely it was. Then yeah, DIMAGA baneling busted him the next game. I don't really consider it a loss for Mvp given that he actually had DIMAGA beat before the disconnect.
On February 20 2024 11:54 Liquid`Ret wrote: 2011 WCG (He beat Kas, Bling, Xigua)
Again, I don't think anybody will deny the weakness of the field, but this was still a time when the WCG name carried prestige! Also, more importantly than the main tournament was the qualifiers, which Mvp finished 1st in. Again not the craziest thing in the world, but he again proves superiority over literally every other player in Korea.
ha this reminds me of how the WESG Korean qualifiers were the real challenge
On February 20 2024 14:00 RPR_Tempest wrote: 2-1 HuK (Code S Protoss, Top 5-10 in the world) 3-1 July (Previous season finalist, Top 3 Zerg) 3-1 San (Previous season semifinalist, Top 3 Protoss) 4-2 MarineKing (The 2nd best Terran in the world behind Mvp)
this is actually a really strong list for that time
The weak players didn't even cross Mvp's path. It was tough enough that it could have been a Code S, minus a Ro32 group stage.
Damn, you're right I didn't remember his opponents being as good as those. Only HuK was weak-ish (I feel top 5-10 is too generous for him), but he indeed was a fair skill for a Ro16 opponent.
On February 20 2024 14:00 RPR_Tempest wrote:
But even then, Mvp actually had DIMAGA beat. He had a pretty sizable advantage in a looooooong game on Tal'darim Altar but then there was a disconnect and the game had to be replayed. DIMAGA was the ace player for the world team, so if you accept the disconnect, the series just ends. Nobody wanted it to end like that, as at the end of the day it was a showmatch, and there was enough leeway where DIMAGA could possibly have comeback, however unlikely it was. Then yeah, DIMAGA baneling busted him the next game. I don't really consider it a loss for Mvp given that he actually had DIMAGA beat before the disconnect.
Dang i had forgotten about that. That was such a sucky time, forget how it was decided but props to MVP for being ok with it (?) and doing the match over. Was cool for Nestea to bring it home for KR in the end though! (Also Whitera beating MC was so hype).
Looking back at the player names makes me so nostalgic and sad. I miss the good ole days ;(
The weak players didn't even cross Mvp's path. It was tough enough that it could have been a Code S, minus a Ro32 group stage.
Damn, you're right I didn't remember his opponents being as good as those. Only HuK was weak-ish (I feel top 5-10 is too generous for him), but he indeed was a fair skill for a Ro16 opponent.
But even then, Mvp actually had DIMAGA beat. He had a pretty sizable advantage in a looooooong game on Tal'darim Altar but then there was a disconnect and the game had to be replayed. DIMAGA was the ace player for the world team, so if you accept the disconnect, the series just ends. Nobody wanted it to end like that, as at the end of the day it was a showmatch, and there was enough leeway where DIMAGA could possibly have comeback, however unlikely it was. Then yeah, DIMAGA baneling busted him the next game. I don't really consider it a loss for Mvp given that he actually had DIMAGA beat before the disconnect.
Dang i had forgotten about that. That was such a sucky time, forget how it was decided but props to MVP for being ok with it (?) and doing the match over. Was cool for Nestea to bring it home for KR in the end though! (Also Whitera beating MC was so hype). Looking back at the player names makes me so nostalgic and sad. I miss the good ole days ;(
At an MLG Dallas (the one with the Life vs Flash final), when resume from replay was brand new and people didn't really know how to use it, they had to resume Mvp vs MC but they got the players backwards. Mvp got control of MC's army, and MC got control of Mvp's army. You can't just resume from replay again to fix this because they players got vision of their opponent's stuff. Mvp said he saw how much MC had and said he was going to lose anyways, so they didn't need to regame.
edit: HuK was pretty damn good at the time, definitely no pushover (top 3 control! /s)
The weak players didn't even cross Mvp's path. It was tough enough that it could have been a Code S, minus a Ro32 group stage.
Damn, you're right I didn't remember his opponents being as good as those. Only HuK was weak-ish (I feel top 5-10 is too generous for him), but he indeed was a fair skill for a Ro16 opponent.
On February 20 2024 14:00 RPR_Tempest wrote:
But even then, Mvp actually had DIMAGA beat. He had a pretty sizable advantage in a looooooong game on Tal'darim Altar but then there was a disconnect and the game had to be replayed. DIMAGA was the ace player for the world team, so if you accept the disconnect, the series just ends. Nobody wanted it to end like that, as at the end of the day it was a showmatch, and there was enough leeway where DIMAGA could possibly have comeback, however unlikely it was. Then yeah, DIMAGA baneling busted him the next game. I don't really consider it a loss for Mvp given that he actually had DIMAGA beat before the disconnect.
Dang i had forgotten about that. That was such a sucky time, forget how it was decided but props to MVP for being ok with it (?) and doing the match over. Was cool for Nestea to bring it home for KR in the end though! (Also Whitera beating MC was so hype). Looking back at the player names makes me so nostalgic and sad. I miss the good ole days ;(
At an MLG Dallas (the one with the Life vs Flash final), when resume from replay was brand new and people didn't really know how to use it, they had to resume Mvp vs MC but they got the players backwards. Mvp got control of MC's army, and MC got control of Mvp's army. You can't just resume from replay again to fix this because they players got vision of their opponent's stuff. Mvp said he saw how much MC had and said he was going to lose anyways, so they didn't need to regame.
edit: HuK was pretty damn good at the time, definitely no pushover (top 3 control! /s)
Holy crap I don't remember that, that sounds like a nightmare. But glad it worked out and players have integrity to admit defeat!
Yeah HuK was definitely one of the strongest foreigners, I always thought he was a bit overrated and was more like Top 20-30 in the world.
Also reading "Life vs Flash" is just wild. What a different time that was.
On February 20 2024 11:54 Liquid`Ret wrote: Now of course I think MVP is a great player - and the undisputed best player of wings - although nestea and mc were trailing pretty closely behind.) I may also be biased, because I actually played mvp twice in offline events, and won both times. For some reason going into a game with Mvp really wasn't that scary as it was going into a game with MMA, or MC. He was a very good player but it always felt like there would be chances, even as a foreigner, if you ran into him in these overseas events that he attended such as MLG, or homestory cup.
Wow Ret. Nice HUMBLE BRAG.
Anyway, I really struggle to put Mvp any higher than this. I think he looked like the best player in the world until he didn't, and from then on became irrelevant. I personally would have Innovation above Mvp, looking and reading through their results again. 2 years of relevance versus 7. But Mvp was one of few players where going into a tournament, he'd be the very clear favorite. Serral is probably the only other person to have that status.
On February 20 2024 15:48 NoGSLnoGOAT wrote: You really can't be even GOAT contender if you haven't won multiple Code S AND premier tournaments outside of Korea. Robbing empty houses doesn't count.
Just to be clear, when you say empty houses, do you mean GSLs? ;D
On February 20 2024 09:03 HolydaKing wrote: Mvp was the most dominant player in the most competetive era, where everyone was still hyped about the game and finding the best strategies & mastering them. At least as far as korean SC2 goes, the first 3 yeas were more meaningful than the last 6 years of SC2 in my eyes. So I got no problems with Mvp being on the list, I might even agree with him being on the 4th spot thinking about it. I say Rogue gets #3 cause of his achievements.
Isn't korean SC2 most competitive era post kespa switch?
On February 20 2024 09:03 HolydaKing wrote: Mvp was the most dominant player in the most competetive era, where everyone was still hyped about the game and finding the best strategies & mastering them. At least as far as korean SC2 goes, the first 3 yeas were more meaningful than the last 6 years of SC2 in my eyes. So I got no problems with Mvp being on the list, I might even agree with him being on the 4th spot thinking about it. I say Rogue gets #3 cause of his achievements.
Isn't korean SC2 most competitive era post kespa switch?
It was, imo his only truly impressive feat is his gsl final vs life. Otherwise, everyone was pretty shit
Ok he has some other good games like the one against innovation during season 1 but I'm really surprised to see a wol player being rank 4.
While I probably wouldn't put Mvp this high up, he definitely belongs in the top 6 tier of this list, especially with that short list putting just how he performed during that short period of time (relative to SC2's lifespan).
But in retrospect i am now really curious how do you fit 4 players into 3 spots and Dark definitely has better resume than TY or Rain even if his unclutchness is there, dare I say.
For me it is really strange seeing MVP on this list. It feels like "Di Stefano is the GOAT of soccer". Furthermore, thinking that someone among Innovation, Dark, Rogue, Reynor, Maru, Serral (ok, Serral and Maru definitely will be in) won't be on this list just feels odd to me.
On February 20 2024 16:41 Parser wrote: For me it is really strange seeing MVP on this list. It feels like "Di Stefano is the GOAT of soccer". Furthermore, thinking that someone among Innovation, Dark, Rogue, Reynor, Maru, Serral (ok, Serral and Maru definitely will be in) won't be on this list just feels odd to me.
I mean, you say this about Di Stefano, but would you also apply that to Pele and Maradona?
Personally, I very much dislike the culture of many modern sports where narratives arbitrarily decide the cutoff point at where the past stops "mattering."
That why I think baseball culture is quite wonderful, because of the major world sports, it makes a true effort to judge players in their own time and respect its past.
A problem comparing traditional sports and sc2 is that for those sports, the popularity of the sport rose and rose and players were becoming better over time due to more professional playing the sport / more money etc. In sc2, the peak popularity / competitiveness was HotS, then it slowly begun to fade, and now it's barely competitive anymore.
It makes it pretty difficult to compare across eras
I've been a TaeJa stan since the beginning, and yes I did consider him to be among the GOATs of WoL/HoTS. He did exceedingly well against Korea's best when he came across them in international, weekend, and team league events (I lost count of how many times he all-killed full Korean teams, and aside from Nestea, he was the only other player to have a perfect map score record in a premier tournament), and to me that was a better test of raw skill/talent than being surrounded by a team trying to pick out specific opponents' weaknesses. My opinion was that preparation tournaments were a test of how good you were against a player, but weekenders were a test of how good you were at StarCraft 2. So yeah, I guess I'm one of those weirdos that never bought into the "he's not good because he never lifted a GSL trophy" line of thinking which weirdly never applied to soO.
Not arguing that he should have made top 10 here, but he definitely had a case in his prime, and I think a lot of other people followed that thought process since he made the Ro8 in the GOAT voting tournament and was only stopped by the eventual popular opinion winner, INno.
As far as MVP goes, I had been saying it in previous threads, and I agree with Ret here, I don't think he deserves to be top 4 in the "all time" list. Especially not over INno. But hey, it's not my list, and I respect the effort put in =).
Still waiting with baited breath to see how Serral and Maru are placed, though I'm starting to get the sense that Maru is gonna be #1 since he was great in proleague and is the best GSL player ever.
Ah, this one is tricky for me. Because I personally might have put Mvp even higher than #4 in a greatest of all time ranking, but I don't think he should be here in a best of all time list. I think there's a big difference, because greatness encompasses more than raw skill or achievement. It includes things like adversity, how memorable a player's achievements were, how they were achieved and just a kind of feeling you have when thinking about players.
If we're talking purely about who the best players of all time are, you'd probably have a ranking of pretty much all players currently around. LotV is more challenging mechanically than the previous two games and I think the level in that regard, at least, has gone up significantly. The game is now optimized to a degree it arguably wasn't in the past, there's not a lot left to figure out unless a patch hits (which is almost never - also contributing to the game being figured out), et cetera.
But part of the greatness of players like Mvp is precisely that the game wasn't figured out at the time. People were experimenting with all sorts of nonsense, the game was wildly imbalanced, maps were a total mess and hardly anything was streamlined. Players that succeeded then were those that could make the most sense of it and explore ways to consistently abuse broken things. That's a completely different skill, in my view, to inching ever closer to perfection in an already refined game. Personally, a lot of players I consider greats of SC2 are exactly those that gave us something new, explored new ways to play the game, astonished with strategies or playstyles or moments of brilliance that you couldn't have seen coming.
It's why Mvp vs Squirtle remains the greatest final in the game's history for me. It certainly wasn't the best, but I've never seen another series with as much tension, a series that developed an internal story so quickly and one where truly nothing was off the table - you simply couldn't predict what would happen next.
Mvp ultimately had no right to win that series, but he did anyway. I couldn't tell you how. Squirtle messed up a lot, but so did Mvp. The level of play was certainly nothing near today's, but who cares? Greatness is also about those moments you remember when you look back years later, and Mvp probably gave us more of those than anyone else.
On February 20 2024 16:41 Parser wrote: For me it is really strange seeing MVP on this list. It feels like "Di Stefano is the GOAT of soccer". Furthermore, thinking that someone among Innovation, Dark, Rogue, Reynor, Maru, Serral (ok, Serral and Maru definitely will be in) won't be on this list just feels odd to me.
I mean, you say this about Di Stefano, but would you also apply that to Pele and Maradona?
Personally, I very much dislike the culture of many modern sports where narratives arbitrarily decide the cutoff point at where the past stops "mattering."
That why I think baseball culture is quite wonderful, because of the major world sports, it makes a true effort to judge players in their own time and respect its past.
I understand your point of view and I am not able to uncontroversially decide if it is worse than mine. I just feel that sports evolve and with this evolution "older" achievements "fade". It is clear that the difficulty here is on the meaning of "older". I am not an expert of baseball so I am not going to speak about it but regarding soccer the difference between matches seventy years old and nowadays games is so great that no-one would pick a player of those times as goat. Just to try to be clearer for me deciding a goat means finding an inherently subjective way of weighting how much someone wins, how much he is better than people who played at his time and how much the game has evolved since his career (making his achievements fading). I do not think that this can be done in an uncontroversially way: in my opinion wings was so unrefined with respect to lotv that MVP achievements "faded" and I wouldn't put him in SC2 top 10
you made a really good case for Mvp. I still don't get why Dark isn't in the top 10, but I'm all the more eager to read your explanations when you give us your #15-11 - among which he is for sure.
now the real trickiness begins, because everyone knows Maru Serral Rogue are left, but in which order ? I can't wait to read the Rogue article, and I for sure hope it's the last
(btw, serious question : will you talk about Life and how he would have ranked without the matchfixing scandals in your #15-11 articles ?)
On February 20 2024 16:41 Parser wrote: For me it is really strange seeing MVP on this list. It feels like "Di Stefano is the GOAT of soccer". Furthermore, thinking that someone among Innovation, Dark, Rogue, Reynor, Maru, Serral (ok, Serral and Maru definitely will be in) won't be on this list just feels odd to me.
Reynor,? Outrageous, demons begone I cast thee out!
I mean Di Stefano is generally considered amongst the GOATs in football. Eras are massively different so I think most reasonable observers go for amongst the best of his era, so somewhere amongst the top 30 all-time. He was also apparently something of a trailblazer and his influence shaped the modern club game, as well as him being quite a modern, versatile player for his time. Some have him second to Cruyff in terms of his wider influence outside the pitch, so think it’s quite a good comparison you’ve made
For me placement in the top 10 you can shift some of it around, but him at least being in that cohort is reasonable enough.
1. It’s a strategy game, so I think having a pick (probably 2, along with Rain) where actually fleshing out how a race should be played, being ahead of the curve. Mvp playing a recognisably modern style of Terran quite early in the game’s life, and him being the one ahead of that curve should count for something, although how much weight I’m unsure. But I do like to see a nod to those who laid the groundwork get some kudos and Mvp did more then almost anyone I can think of in this domain.
2. The ‘what-if?’ factor being out of his control. While nothing in life existence is certain, it’s very, very likely that Mvp and Taeja would have done something to add to their greatness without injury, and Voldemort would have done so if he’d not been tempted by the dark side.
If we look at contemporaries who were at least relevant players at some point in WoL who’ve stuck around and still been good players, a Gumiho or a Ryung and where they were relative to Mvp, I’d wager he still had a few good years to give if he’d avoided injury.
Even with an adjusted playstyle Mvp was still hanging with the new generation up to early HoTS. That last GSL run of note his scalps included Parting and Rain when they started to get established. Going through Liquipedia and rewatching that 2013 WCS Finals set versus Inno, yeah Mvp lost but contextually to even hang with Innovation full stop, never mind with the adjustments he had to make through injury. This wasn’t Inno on the way up, this may have been relative to the field the scariest version of Innovation. He qualified for this event through the GSL he lost to Soulkey, which was considered an upset because Inno was just dominating players of all races in Proleague at the time, that very cohort who would themselves go on to dominate wider SC2 for years to come.
Whereas even in his heyday Innovation was streaky enough year to year, and he was mostly checked out as a contender once he’d won that last WESG. I mean you’re talking cumulative years of Inno’s career ultimately.
When this list was last done (or it may have been a big forum debate than a writer’s article) and ignoring how GSL wasn’t standardised, the G5L was on the cards since the trophy was made for Mvp. Inno was within touching distance, and Maru had not just broken the barrier of winning consecutive GSLs, but smashed it and won 4 back-to-back. The one thing Inno was lacking was a big statement Blizzcon/Katowice performance, but it was still enough for him to top the ranking.
Since then, despite having years of activity, Innovation added basically nothing to his resume while Maru fleshed out his traditional gap in international weekenders, made multiple Ro4+ placings in WC events, to at least have a case of the most consistent player in those events, and won a bunch more GSLs.
A guy like Zest was also quite streaky, but latterly he did make another Code S final and two heroic Katowice runs.
For me longevity should be a double-edged sword that can also hurt a claim depending what you do with it otherwise such lists end up full of players with longer careers and a bigger trophy list almost by default.
I shall note I’m not saying Mvp > Innovation necessarily, and I love both players but I think the latter’s career is quite illustrative. Mvp had his career cut short by injury pretty much isn’t disputed, to the degree I’d argue both Inno’s period as the terrifying Machine, and periods where he absolutely was not The Machine are both longer than Mvp’s career. As with point 1, I don’t know how much I’d weigh it, but it definitely counts for something.
If there’s one player who seems likely to miss out now it seems it’s going to be Dark, but he can count himself unlucky. His whole thing is being a solid contender and consistent placer since the dawn of time itself. But versus his contemporaries of similar spans, often streaky players with high highs and low lows, he’s been more a career of creamy mids. Of the two players who are here for shorter but glorious careers, he doesn’t quite have that period of being the guy going for him. These things are tough to rank! I definitely think Dark’s niche of being a relevant playoff/champ contender for forever feels worthy of placement too, but who would he displace?
After reading #4-#10 all I can say - this article series didn't have to exist. stuchiu's article worked perfectly for WoL/HotS - and Mizenhauer could write a great series for LotV greatest, but mixing players from different eras is like putting champion in 100m races (junior division, up to 10 years old) next to Usain Bolt as an equal. Since both are running, both are champions and one was running when it wasn't that figured out by his peers.
On February 20 2024 18:34 [PkF] Wire wrote: you made a really good case for Mvp. I still don't get why Dark isn't in the top 10, but I'm all the more eager to read your explanations when you give us your #15-11 - among which he is for sure.
now the real trickiness begins, because everyone knows Maru Serral Rogue are left, but in which order ? I can't wait to read the Rogue article, and I for sure hope it's the last
(btw, serious question : will you talk about Life and how he would have ranked without the matchfixing scandals in your #15-11 articles ?)
I think it can only be: 1st/2nd or 1st/3rd - Maru/Serral - interchangeable on preference/weightings don’t @ me folks! ^_^ 2nd/3rd - Rogue
Rogue can win either head-to-head, I don’t see how he can win both.
Maru versus Rogue the former has the better career way back from peak Kespa through now. A better Proleague performance, more Starleagues, more deep placements in Starleagues, where they can be directly compared. Rogue has the edge in villainy and in World Champ tier events.
Serral versus Rogue they’re honours even in World Champs basically, Serral has the edge in consistency, performance through a year in wider events, and in head-to-head, where they can directly be compared. Rogue has the edge of Starleague honours, where Serral doesn’t play.
People may disagree with my calculus, unless you just disqualify Serral outright for not playing Starleagues, which Miz is too sensible to do, I don’t see any weighting of achievements where Rogue places above second.
If we weigh Starleagues very highly, he can displace Serral in the pecking order, but if that’s the big qualifier I don’t think anyone here would argue he’s a better Starleague player than Maru and he can’t win that head-to-head.
If we rank World Golds really highly he displaces Maru, but Serral’s got him tied there, and I think Serral just has him best in a direct comparison as a tie-breaker.
General premier wins and medals? From memory I think Serral just wins this even if you take away all his WCS circuit ones.
I’m not sure how Miz is gonna go, I’m yet to get to that Being John Malkovich stage where I have a portal into his head, although by the end of this series and associated threads I may yet get there.
On February 20 2024 18:34 [PkF] Wire wrote: you made a really good case for Mvp. I still don't get why Dark isn't in the top 10, but I'm all the more eager to read your explanations when you give us your #15-11 - among which he is for sure.
now the real trickiness begins, because everyone knows Maru Serral Rogue are left, but in which order ? I can't wait to read the Rogue article, and I for sure hope it's the last
(btw, serious question : will you talk about Life and how he would have ranked without the matchfixing scandals in your #15-11 articles ?)
I think it can only be: 1st/2nd or 1st/3rd - Maru/Serral - interchangeable on preference/weightings don’t @ me folks! ^_^ 2nd/3rd - Rogue
Rogue can win either head-to-head, I don’t see how he can win both.
Maru versus Rogue the former has the better career way back from peak Kespa through now. A better Proleague performance, more Starleagues, more deep placements in Starleagues, where they can be directly compared. Rogue has the edge in villainy and in World Champ tier events.
Serral versus Rogue they’re honours even in World Champs basically, Serral has the edge in consistency, performance through a year in wider events, and in head-to-head, where they can directly be compared. Rogue has the edge of Starleague honours, where Serral doesn’t play.
People may disagree with my calculus, unless you just disqualify Serral outright for not playing Starleagues, which Miz is too sensible to do, I don’t see any weighting of achievements where Rogue places above second.
If we weigh Starleagues very highly, he can displace Serral in the pecking order, but if that’s the big qualifier I don’t think anyone here would argue he’s a better Starleague player than Maru and he can’t win that head-to-head.
If we rank World Golds really highly he displaces Maru, but Serral’s got him tied there, and I think Serral just has him best in a direct comparison as a tie-breaker.
General premier wins and medals? From memory I think Serral just wins this even if you take away all his WCS circuit ones.
I’m not sure how Miz is gonna go, I’m yet to get to that Being John Malkovich stage where I have a portal into his head, although by the end of this series and associated threads I may yet get there.
I agree with your points tbf, but the clutchness and "know how to win whatever it takes" factor of Rogue was just something else when he was on top of his game, and that aspect has been valued quite high in that ranking so far, so I don't despair
On February 20 2024 18:34 [PkF] Wire wrote: you made a really good case for Mvp. I still don't get why Dark isn't in the top 10, but I'm all the more eager to read your explanations when you give us your #15-11 - among which he is for sure.
now the real trickiness begins, because everyone knows Maru Serral Rogue are left, but in which order ? I can't wait to read the Rogue article, and I for sure hope it's the last
(btw, serious question : will you talk about Life and how he would have ranked without the matchfixing scandals in your #15-11 articles ?)
I think it can only be: 1st/2nd or 1st/3rd - Maru/Serral - interchangeable on preference/weightings don’t @ me folks! ^_^ 2nd/3rd - Rogue
Rogue can win either head-to-head, I don’t see how he can win both.
Maru versus Rogue the former has the better career way back from peak Kespa through now. A better Proleague performance, more Starleagues, more deep placements in Starleagues, where they can be directly compared. Rogue has the edge in villainy and in World Champ tier events.
Serral versus Rogue they’re honours even in World Champs basically, Serral has the edge in consistency, performance through a year in wider events, and in head-to-head, where they can directly be compared. Rogue has the edge of Starleague honours, where Serral doesn’t play.
People may disagree with my calculus, unless you just disqualify Serral outright for not playing Starleagues, which Miz is too sensible to do, I don’t see any weighting of achievements where Rogue places above second.
If we weigh Starleagues very highly, he can displace Serral in the pecking order, but if that’s the big qualifier I don’t think anyone here would argue he’s a better Starleague player than Maru and he can’t win that head-to-head.
If we rank World Golds really highly he displaces Maru, but Serral’s got him tied there, and I think Serral just has him best in a direct comparison as a tie-breaker.
General premier wins and medals? From memory I think Serral just wins this even if you take away all his WCS circuit ones.
I’m not sure how Miz is gonna go, I’m yet to get to that Being John Malkovich stage where I have a portal into his head, although by the end of this series and associated threads I may yet get there.
A lot of comments trying to deny the massive impact Mvp had during that era in terms of meta defining, storylines, popularizing the game. He was huge. He was the inarguable King of Wings and so important for everything that happened during that era. An iconic figure.
For me, the archon toilet of his BCs was one of the most gutwrenching moments of my sc2 fandom, but the G7 comeback was unreal. I've watched that game back more than ten times.
But the real heartbreak was in his series vs Life, there was an opportunity to split map in G7 on Daybreak and win, but he moved out so early and threw away his position, giving Life enough of a headstart to get into Brood Lords. I so wanted him to win that series for the G5L.
Also got to say that the 3rax scv pull he introduced vs Naniwa was an iconic game that fuelled my ladder matches for months after.
Also worth pointing out to Ret that he did play Mvp a third time offline and lost 0-2 at WCS EU (although Mvp also went out with Ret 3/4th place in this group lol)
On February 20 2024 16:41 Parser wrote: For me it is really strange seeing MVP on this list. It feels like "Di Stefano is the GOAT of soccer". Furthermore, thinking that someone among Innovation, Dark, Rogue, Reynor, Maru, Serral (ok, Serral and Maru definitely will be in) won't be on this list just feels odd to me.
What does Di Stefano have on Messi though?
After a short overview of the Trophy cases of Pele, Di Stefano, Maradona and Messi it seems to me Messi got them all beat. Though that sole World Champion title is a bit lacking compared to Pele's three.
On February 20 2024 18:34 [PkF] Wire wrote: you made a really good case for Mvp. I still don't get why Dark isn't in the top 10, but I'm all the more eager to read your explanations when you give us your #15-11 - among which he is for sure.
now the real trickiness begins, because everyone knows Maru Serral Rogue are left, but in which order ? I can't wait to read the Rogue article, and I for sure hope it's the last
(btw, serious question : will you talk about Life and how he would have ranked without the matchfixing scandals in your #15-11 articles ?)
I think it can only be: 1st/2nd or 1st/3rd - Maru/Serral - interchangeable on preference/weightings don’t @ me folks! ^_^ 2nd/3rd - Rogue
Rogue can win either head-to-head, I don’t see how he can win both.
Maru versus Rogue the former has the better career way back from peak Kespa through now. A better Proleague performance, more Starleagues, more deep placements in Starleagues, where they can be directly compared. Rogue has the edge in villainy and in World Champ tier events.
Serral versus Rogue they’re honours even in World Champs basically, Serral has the edge in consistency, performance through a year in wider events, and in head-to-head, where they can directly be compared. Rogue has the edge of Starleague honours, where Serral doesn’t play.
People may disagree with my calculus, unless you just disqualify Serral outright for not playing Starleagues, which Miz is too sensible to do, I don’t see any weighting of achievements where Rogue places above second.
If we weigh Starleagues very highly, he can displace Serral in the pecking order, but if that’s the big qualifier I don’t think anyone here would argue he’s a better Starleague player than Maru and he can’t win that head-to-head.
If we rank World Golds really highly he displaces Maru, but Serral’s got him tied there, and I think Serral just has him best in a direct comparison as a tie-breaker.
General premier wins and medals? From memory I think Serral just wins this even if you take away all his WCS circuit ones.
I’m not sure how Miz is gonna go, I’m yet to get to that Being John Malkovich stage where I have a portal into his head, although by the end of this series and associated threads I may yet get there.
On February 20 2024 18:34 [PkF] Wire wrote: you made a really good case for Mvp. I still don't get why Dark isn't in the top 10, but I'm all the more eager to read your explanations when you give us your #15-11 - among which he is for sure.
now the real trickiness begins, because everyone knows Maru Serral Rogue are left, but in which order ? I can't wait to read the Rogue article, and I for sure hope it's the last
(btw, serious question : will you talk about Life and how he would have ranked without the matchfixing scandals in your #15-11 articles ?)
I think it can only be: 1st/2nd or 1st/3rd - Maru/Serral - interchangeable on preference/weightings don’t @ me folks! ^_^ 2nd/3rd - Rogue
Rogue can win either head-to-head, I don’t see how he can win both.
Maru versus Rogue the former has the better career way back from peak Kespa through now. A better Proleague performance, more Starleagues, more deep placements in Starleagues, where they can be directly compared. Rogue has the edge in villainy and in World Champ tier events.
Serral versus Rogue they’re honours even in World Champs basically, Serral has the edge in consistency, performance through a year in wider events, and in head-to-head, where they can directly be compared. Rogue has the edge of Starleague honours, where Serral doesn’t play.
People may disagree with my calculus, unless you just disqualify Serral outright for not playing Starleagues, which Miz is too sensible to do, I don’t see any weighting of achievements where Rogue places above second.
If we weigh Starleagues very highly, he can displace Serral in the pecking order, but if that’s the big qualifier I don’t think anyone here would argue he’s a better Starleague player than Maru and he can’t win that head-to-head.
If we rank World Golds really highly he displaces Maru, but Serral’s got him tied there, and I think Serral just has him best in a direct comparison as a tie-breaker.
General premier wins and medals? From memory I think Serral just wins this even if you take away all his WCS circuit ones.
I’m not sure how Miz is gonna go, I’m yet to get to that Being John Malkovich stage where I have a portal into his head, although by the end of this series and associated threads I may yet get there.
Good choice. MVP was the first Gosu of SC2 and deserves his spot.
I mean what most of you don't grasp / have forgotten / never witnessed how many players competed during that early stages and how unrefined some of the stuff was.
It was freaking hard to qualify for Code S, very good players got cheesed left and right in Code A and other tournaments. Yet MVP still won so much in such dominant fashion. All of his wins and dominance stem from a rather short peroid and I'd be curious how much a healthy MVP with 5 more years could have won.
To me MVP feels just about right at #4. Some 10-14 year long careers are sometimes not a matter of greatness but consistency. SoO being a prime example, he never was the best player really (in my eyes), yet made this list.
Yes maybe others have won more overall but they never had the impact MVP had.
On February 20 2024 16:41 Parser wrote: For me it is really strange seeing MVP on this list. It feels like "Di Stefano is the GOAT of soccer". Furthermore, thinking that someone among Innovation, Dark, Rogue, Reynor, Maru, Serral (ok, Serral and Maru definitely will be in) won't be on this list just feels odd to me.
What does Di Stefano have on Messi though?
After a short overview of the Trophy cases of Pele, Di Stefano, Maradona and Messi it seems to me Messi got them all beat. Though that sole World Champion title is a bit lacking compared to Pele's three.
For me Messi is certainly the best player, and by a surprisingly large distance that I’ve ever seen, and likely all-time, but GOATness you run into issues of eta and other factors.
Pele has those World Cups, equally it’s nothing to do with his personal greatness that he happened to be Brazilian and in 1962 and 70 especially, be playing for two of the great international sides that were stacked.
The economics and wider structural context of the game have also shifted. Di Stefano has all those European cups, but that competition was only in its infancy then, and the professional game wasn’t as deep across Europe as perhaps other periods.
Maradona is in his pomp when Italy’s top tier is maybe the strongest domestic league for the combination of sheer quality and deep competition we’ve seen. Also the European Cup of this era is pure league winners, indeed the Napoli he first dragged to Serie A glory drew Real Madrid first round and went out immediately of the 1987-1988 European Cup. Madrid then knocked Porto out second round, the actual defending champions. It’s even wilder if you look at the bracket from that link, and see some of the other first round ties! That’s kind of unthinkable if one is used to the current format. His trophy cabinet isn’t nearly as full as others partly for this reason, partly his love of the auld cocaine.
Messi has crazy numbers, although IMO that is partly to a bigger and bigger concentration of talent in fewer clubs, even since the 2000s or so. The game has changed tactically as well, it’s not 100% of the reason but just a decade or so before, it was literally unheard of for players to go 1:1 goals per game for much more than a single ridiculous season. 0.5 goals per game was a very decent player indeed, much above and you’re in the conversation for best of the era. For reference Thierry Henry in domestic games for Arsenal sat at 0.67 GPG, I think it’s fair to consider that ‘peak Henry’. Ronaldo between Inter/Barca/Real Madrid managed 0.71 and while I think that includes a period where he was past his peak after his knee injuries, his numbers aren’t massively off then at 0.65 GPG in those domestic leagues.
Then you end up with a swathe of players who way, way exceed those numbers, in an era where I’d argue the traditionally huge clubs started to gap everyone else, especially domestically. I do think while this isn’t the entire explanation, I do feel it’s a big factor in why we’re seeing more and more players close in or even exceed 1:1 goal a game averages. Also why you’re seeing more huge points tallies and more clubs winning many consecutive leagues, or if not, just trading leagues with one other, maybe two other teams.
Messi probably isn’t even a professional footballer in other eras where clubs couldn’t, or wouldn’t pay for some kid to get growth hormone treatment.
TLDR, as I often say in the absence of a player of absolute outlying dominance, Wayne Gretzky in ice hockey, Donald Bradman in cricket (test average 99.8, where an average significantly above 50 over a long career puts a batsman in the all-time great pantheon), you can’t really aspire to be the GOAT, merely part of that conversation.
So this grew to more of a monster post than I’d initially anticipated, but hey I may not necessarily be the biggest football fan on TL, but I am definitely one of the biggest nerds.
I do not really understand this decision. This must mean that Dark is not in this list (unless its Serral/Maru tied) and that doesnt make any sense to me. Yeah, MPV was a great and iconic player, but his reign was so short and the whole game was just starting to phase up. I would not have had him in the top-10, or maybe in the 8-10 region at best. Also I do not get at all why is he above Inno ?? That doesnt make any sense to me.
HOWEVER, what many of you have said too, thanks for all work you put on this list, Miz. Great read and lots of info I have either forgotten or not known.
MVP was magical, no matter how you twist it though, his time lasted for no more than 1,5 years.
During this time Code S was basically a monthly event and there were a lot of chances to gather trophies. There were 7 seasons of Code S in 2011. Weighing each on of these as highly as a world championship seems questionable.
The choice of words and hyperboles indicate your fandom and hell why not, you put a lot of work into these articles, they are very enjoyable to read and encourage to look back at these great games which is a lot of fun.
But MVP is ranked too high on this list for sure, I agree with everything Ret said.
On February 20 2024 22:49 Tsubbi wrote: MVP was magical, no matter how you twist it though, his time lasted for no more than 1,5 years.
During this time Code S was basically a monthly event and there were a lot of chances to gather trophies. There were 7 seasons of Code S in 2011. Weighing each on of these as highly as a world championship seems questionable.
The choice of words and hyperboles indicate your fandom and hell why not, you put a lot of work into these articles, they are very enjoyable to read and encourage to look back at these great games which is a lot of fun.
But MVP is ranked too high on this list for sure, I agree with everything Ret said.
So? He won THAT many during the most competitive time of the game? If anything that's an argument for MVP and not against. What does longevity accomplish when paired with medicoracy? A good player that had a few runs.
That covers a lot of players on this list quite frankly. And most of them were never better than MVP during any of their wins.
I will admit, I forgot Mvp originally and was surprised when people brought him up as #4 instead of Dark. And even though I was against it, I can see his merits and reasons to be included in the Top 10. No. 4 however just feels way too high. He was dominant for a very short amount of time, with an inflated number of GSL wins. Like Maru, Mvp has won three GSLs in a year (I think...does that GSL Championship thingy count as a GSL?). But Maru won 3 out of 3, while Mvp won 3 out of 11. I know it is a projection, but imagine 2018 still had so many GSLs and Maru would have won like 7 out of 11...would anyone even talk about Mvp at this point?
Mvp also played in the lowest skill-era of competitive SC2 history - the game was new, no Kespa-Koreans yet and the wonkiest of the 3 addons. Sure, maybe the highest amount of players, but so unrefined compared to today or even HotS. I don't want to say it was "easy" to be as dominant as he was, of course not. But in my opinion it doesn't hold up to stronger players in later years.
Lastly, I don't think we can really ignore how Mvp left the scene. His last professional match was a 2-3 vs. MorroW, after that he only played a couple of qualifiers. Of course that might be him still trying against his injury, but it doesn't particularly scream "Vice-Vice-Vice-GOAT!" either.
On February 20 2024 22:49 Tsubbi wrote: MVP was magical, no matter how you twist it though, his time lasted for no more than 1,5 years.
During this time Code S was basically a monthly event and there were a lot of chances to gather trophies. There were 7 seasons of Code S in 2011. Weighing each on of these as highly as a world championship seems questionable.
The choice of words and hyperboles indicate your fandom and hell why not, you put a lot of work into these articles, they are very enjoyable to read and encourage to look back at these great games which is a lot of fun.
But MVP is ranked too high on this list for sure, I agree with everything Ret said.
So? He won THAT many during the most competitive time of the game? If anything that's an argument for MVP and not against. What does longevity accomplish when paired with medicoracy? A good player that had a few runs.
That covers a lot of players on this list quite frankly. And most of them were never better than MVP during any of their wins.
You might wanna rewatch a few games of 2011 GSL, the level of play is laughable compared to 1-2 years later
On February 20 2024 22:49 Tsubbi wrote: MVP was magical, no matter how you twist it though, his time lasted for no more than 1,5 years.
During this time Code S was basically a monthly event and there were a lot of chances to gather trophies. There were 7 seasons of Code S in 2011. Weighing each on of these as highly as a world championship seems questionable.
The choice of words and hyperboles indicate your fandom and hell why not, you put a lot of work into these articles, they are very enjoyable to read and encourage to look back at these great games which is a lot of fun.
But MVP is ranked too high on this list for sure, I agree with everything Ret said.
So? He won THAT many during the most competitive time of the game? If anything that's an argument for MVP and not against. What does longevity accomplish when paired with medicoracy? A good player that had a few runs.
That covers a lot of players on this list quite frankly. And most of them were never better than MVP during any of their wins.
You might wanna rewatch a few games of 2011 GSL, the level of play is laughable compared to 1-2 years later
Oh come on, "most competitive" is obviously comparative to overall skill level. Back in the day just making Code A was an achievement. Nowadays PAPI makes RO32 in tournaments that are considered "premier".
Will there be a #0? Im struggling to see Dark being out of the top 10. The top 3 should already be locked in per everyone mentioning Rouge Maru Serral...
On February 21 2024 00:12 LennX wrote: Will there be a #0? Im struggling to see Dark being out of the top 10. The top 3 should already be locked in per everyone mentioning Rouge Maru Serral...
I doubt it. soO > Dark is the most peculiar thing about this ranking though, because both won their only WC when zerg was absolutely overpowered (2019) while Dark was also doing well in GSL at other times and actually won the thing. He even made top 2 in 2016 in an epic series versus ByuN, and was overall a feared opponent among foreigners and still is despite being far past his prime. Whereas soO lost to Zhugeliang and stuff, and never won a single GSL. soO literally had the game to be completely broken to be able to win a prestigious tournament, similarly to Messi getting a WC handed to him before his retirement
On February 21 2024 00:12 LennX wrote: Will there be a #0? Im struggling to see Dark being out of the top 10. The top 3 should already be locked in per everyone mentioning Rouge Maru Serral...
soO literally had the game to be completely broken to be able to win a prestigious tournament, similarly to Messi getting a WC handed to him before his retirement
Not even addressing the ridiculous mention of a bo1 (Zhuge took a map from Serral and Lambo in the same summer with that strat btw), this is such an insane statement that not even the infamous ZParcraft 2 article can contest it in terran delusions. With all due respect if i wrote such blatant whine it'd be straight in the balance whine ban dumpster with me.
On February 21 2024 00:12 LennX wrote: Will there be a #0? Im struggling to see Dark being out of the top 10. The top 3 should already be locked in per everyone mentioning Rouge Maru Serral...
soO literally had the game to be completely broken to be able to win a prestigious tournament, similarly to Messi getting a WC handed to him before his retirement
Not even addressing the ridiculous mention of a bo1 (Zhuge took a map from Serral and Lambo in the same summer with that strat btw), this is such an insane statement that not even the infamous ZParcraft 2 article can contest it in terran delusions. With all due respect if i wrote such blatant whine it'd be straight in the balance whine ban dumpster with me.
It's okay he's a writer now, the 20+ bans for balance whine are long behind him
MVP's reign was during the peak of GomTvT times, 55% of semi finalists in 2011 were terran. So what? He still was the best. Stop talking shit about some of the best players of all time.
A GOAT list simply wouldn't feel complete without him. I do think Dark > TY, and Dark > Rain. But a top four of MVP, Rogue, Maru, and Serral (there's no longer any doubt in my mind after Katowice) seems fine to me.
On February 21 2024 00:12 LennX wrote: Will there be a #0? Im struggling to see Dark being out of the top 10. The top 3 should already be locked in per everyone mentioning Rouge Maru Serral...
I doubt it. soO > Dark is the most peculiar thing about this ranking though, because both won their only WC when zerg was absolutely overpowered (2019) while Dark was also doing well in GSL at other times and actually won the thing. He even made top 2 in 2016 in an epic series versus ByuN, and was overall a feared opponent among foreigners and still is despite being far past his prime. Whereas soO lost to Zhugeliang and stuff, and never won a single GSL. soO literally had the game to be completely broken to be able to win a prestigious tournament, similarly to Messi getting a WC handed to him before his retirement
Along with Rain it’s probably the most debatable shout
It’s like SC2’s ultimate Kong versus, for my money probably the player who was a top, top consistent contender for the longest without winning a huge amount.
I don’t think any direction it goes is especially outrageous. Maru’s fourpeat is one of those achievements that overshadows what came before.
If memory serves, nobody had made more than 2 consecutive finals before soO, and he made 4. Maru doing what he’s done has made soO’s runs less bonkers in retrospect, but at the time they were insane.
Dark may cumulatively have slightly more top 8/4 finishes, and he made more hay in the latter stages of the scene. Equally soO had to go to military not all that long after finally casting off the Kong Kurse and missed that period where Dark and Rogue were hoovering up titles
It’s that close really I wouldn’t even expend the energy of a shoulder shrug if either made top 10 at the other’s expense.
The only reason anyone would place soO above Dark is if they VASTLY value peak over longevity.
soO had a slightly higher peak than Dark when he had like 4 straight GSL finals appearance and considered undoubtedly the best Zerg in the world. But Dark in 2016 was also considered best Zerg in the world unless my memory is tricking me. He reached the WCS finals during a time Zerg was relatively weak and you regularly see only one or no Zerg in tournament Ro.8. There's really not that big of a difference between their peak.
But Dark just has so much better longevity, he's been like top 3 Zerg and top 5 player in the world for last 8 years, got one world champ and one runner up, have even more 2nd places than soO had at this point, and of course many more first place.
On February 20 2024 23:49 Balnazza wrote: Mvp also played in the lowest skill-era of competitive SC2 history - the game was new, no Kespa-Koreans yet and the wonkiest of the 3 addons. Sure, maybe the highest amount of players, but so unrefined compared to today or even HotS.
Yeah, and also he played terran in one of the most terran-favored eras of SC2.
It's amusing that imbalances in favor of terran tend to receive much less attention on TL than other supposed issues. Do you all recall what WoL looked it like? A good part of it consisted of patching out the most hilariously broken terran-favored imbalances and maps, like barracks before depots and steppes of war and and the early temple and queens being garbage and spores requiring evos and so on and so on, making even the slightest misread in ZvT an instant game-winner for the terran.
This is not to discredit MVP, he was a great player of course.
On February 21 2024 01:03 Nasigil wrote: The only reason anyone would place soO above Dark is if they VASTLY value peak over longevity.
soO had a slightly higher peak than Dark when he had like 4 straight GSL finals appearance and considered undoubtedly the best Zerg in the world. But Dark in 2016 was also considered best Zerg in the world unless my memory is tricking me. He reached the WCS finals during a time Zerg was relatively weak and you regularly see only one or no Zerg in tournament Ro.8. There's really not that big of a difference between their peak.
But Dark just has so much better longevity, he's been like top 3 Zerg and top 5 player in the world for last 8 years, got one world champ and one runner up, have even more 2nd places than soO had at this point, and of course much more first place.
It’s that tricky business of what do you value. And IMO there are many wrong answers, but few right ones.
Is the guy who’s top 4-8 for a decade greater than the bloke who’s the best, or second best for a few?
I think the scene just fell off slightly too early for Dark, + he didn’t capitalise as much as he could have, in combination.
If the scene had remained deeper, Dark’s USP of being just this resolutely consistent presence deep in tournaments counts for slightly more. If he’d made even slightly more hay while the sun shined, he leapfrogs other players. As it is soO has more going for him in a tougher competitive era, even if it’s maybe more streaky, and Rogue took way better advantage of the last 4/5 years in populating his trophy cabinet.
Essentially while this isn’t a widely shared position, I do think Dark’s career > Rogue’s overall. If Dark had even traded Starleagues and WCs with Rogue in this era it wouldn’t even be a question.
On February 21 2024 00:12 LennX wrote: Will there be a #0? Im struggling to see Dark being out of the top 10. The top 3 should already be locked in per everyone mentioning Rouge Maru Serral...
I doubt it. soO > Dark is the most peculiar thing about this ranking though, because both won their only WC when zerg was absolutely overpowered (2019) while Dark was also doing well in GSL at other times and actually won the thing. He even made top 2 in 2016 in an epic series versus ByuN, and was overall a feared opponent among foreigners and still is despite being far past his prime. Whereas soO lost to Zhugeliang and stuff, and never won a single GSL. soO literally had the game to be completely broken to be able to win a prestigious tournament, similarly to Messi getting a WC handed to him before his retirement
Along with Rain it’s probably the most debatable shout
It’s like SC2’s ultimate Kong versus, for my money probably the player who was a top, top consistent contender for the longest without winning a huge amount.
I don’t think any direction it goes is especially outrageous. Maru’s fourpeat is one of those achievements that overshadows what came before.
If memory serves, nobody had made more than 2 consecutive finals before soO, and he made 4. Maru doing what he’s done has made soO’s runs less bonkers in retrospect, but at the time they were insane.
Dark may cumulatively have slightly more top 8/4 finishes, and he made more hay in the latter stages of the scene. Equally soO had to go to military not all that long after finally casting off the Kong Kurse and missed that period where Dark and Rogue were hoovering up titles
It’s that close really I wouldn’t even expend the energy of a shoulder shrug if either made top 10 at the other’s expense.
I mean with Rain the comparison is more difficult because Rain won stuff, was a pioneer in how to play protoss his way, etc. As for soO, it’s difficult to see him there but not Dark, who was the best Zerg in the world in 2016 / 2019 and remained a top Zerg for long, while winning important tournaments.
Wasn't MVP's last GSL win reponsible for the whole infestor BL era when terrans were already struggling but he smh put a win solidfying this state of the game?
Anyway, MVP dominated when the game was the most competitive, balance should not be a really strong argument against that either because it was GomTvT era and he was the one to dominate.
On February 21 2024 00:12 LennX wrote: Will there be a #0? Im struggling to see Dark being out of the top 10. The top 3 should already be locked in per everyone mentioning Rouge Maru Serral...
I doubt it. soO > Dark is the most peculiar thing about this ranking though, because both won their only WC when zerg was absolutely overpowered (2019) while Dark was also doing well in GSL at other times and actually won the thing. He even made top 2 in 2016 in an epic series versus ByuN, and was overall a feared opponent among foreigners and still is despite being far past his prime. Whereas soO lost to Zhugeliang and stuff, and never won a single GSL. soO literally had the game to be completely broken to be able to win a prestigious tournament, similarly to Messi getting a WC handed to him before his retirement
Along with Rain it’s probably the most debatable shout
It’s like SC2’s ultimate Kong versus, for my money probably the player who was a top, top consistent contender for the longest without winning a huge amount.
I don’t think any direction it goes is especially outrageous. Maru’s fourpeat is one of those achievements that overshadows what came before.
If memory serves, nobody had made more than 2 consecutive finals before soO, and he made 4. Maru doing what he’s done has made soO’s runs less bonkers in retrospect, but at the time they were insane.
Dark may cumulatively have slightly more top 8/4 finishes, and he made more hay in the latter stages of the scene. Equally soO had to go to military not all that long after finally casting off the Kong Kurse and missed that period where Dark and Rogue were hoovering up titles
It’s that close really I wouldn’t even expend the energy of a shoulder shrug if either made top 10 at the other’s expense.
I mean with Rain the comparison is more difficult because Rain won stuff, was a pioneer in how to play protoss his way, etc. As for soO, it’s difficult to see him there but not Dark, who was the best Zerg in the world in 2016 / 2019 and remained a top Zerg for long, while winning important tournaments.
This Dark thing is so disappointing. It's been weeks of the same argument to which I can't respond despite having way more information available to me atm than you guys. Oh well, have to wait for blog stuff and hope people would be up for a good faith discussion.
On February 20 2024 22:49 Tsubbi wrote: MVP was magical, no matter how you twist it though, his time lasted for no more than 1,5 years.
During this time Code S was basically a monthly event and there were a lot of chances to gather trophies. There were 7 seasons of Code S in 2011. Weighing each on of these as highly as a world championship seems questionable.
The choice of words and hyperboles indicate your fandom and hell why not, you put a lot of work into these articles, they are very enjoyable to read and encourage to look back at these great games which is a lot of fun.
But MVP is ranked too high on this list for sure, I agree with everything Ret said.
So? He won THAT many during the most competitive time of the game? If anything that's an argument for MVP and not against. What does longevity accomplish when paired with medicoracy? A good player that had a few runs.
That covers a lot of players on this list quite frankly. And most of them were never better than MVP during any of their wins.
You might wanna rewatch a few games of 2011 GSL, the level of play is laughable compared to 1-2 years later
Oh come on, "most competitive" is obviously comparative to overall skill level. Back in the day just making Code A was an achievement. Nowadays PAPI makes RO32 in tournaments that are considered "premier".
Exactely.
Beeing the best when hardly anyone cares about it is not really an achievement. You've to be good when it matters.
On February 21 2024 00:12 LennX wrote: Will there be a #0? Im struggling to see Dark being out of the top 10. The top 3 should already be locked in per everyone mentioning Rouge Maru Serral...
soO literally had the game to be completely broken to be able to win a prestigious tournament, similarly to Messi getting a WC handed to him before his retirement
Not even addressing the ridiculous mention of a bo1 (Zhuge took a map from Serral and Lambo in the same summer with that strat btw), this is such an insane statement that not even the infamous ZParcraft 2 article can contest it in terran delusions. With all due respect if i wrote such blatant whine it'd be straight in the balance whine ban dumpster with me.
It's okay he's a writer now, the 20+ bans for balance whine are long behind him
Remember when he was perma banned for like 45 minutes?
On February 21 2024 00:12 LennX wrote: Will there be a #0? Im struggling to see Dark being out of the top 10. The top 3 should already be locked in per everyone mentioning Rouge Maru Serral...
I doubt it. soO > Dark is the most peculiar thing about this ranking though, because both won their only WC when zerg was absolutely overpowered (2019) while Dark was also doing well in GSL at other times and actually won the thing. He even made top 2 in 2016 in an epic series versus ByuN, and was overall a feared opponent among foreigners and still is despite being far past his prime. Whereas soO lost to Zhugeliang and stuff, and never won a single GSL. soO literally had the game to be completely broken to be able to win a prestigious tournament, similarly to Messi getting a WC handed to him before his retirement
Along with Rain it’s probably the most debatable shout
It’s like SC2’s ultimate Kong versus, for my money probably the player who was a top, top consistent contender for the longest without winning a huge amount.
I don’t think any direction it goes is especially outrageous. Maru’s fourpeat is one of those achievements that overshadows what came before.
If memory serves, nobody had made more than 2 consecutive finals before soO, and he made 4. Maru doing what he’s done has made soO’s runs less bonkers in retrospect, but at the time they were insane.
Dark may cumulatively have slightly more top 8/4 finishes, and he made more hay in the latter stages of the scene. Equally soO had to go to military not all that long after finally casting off the Kong Kurse and missed that period where Dark and Rogue were hoovering up titles
It’s that close really I wouldn’t even expend the energy of a shoulder shrug if either made top 10 at the other’s expense.
I mean with Rain the comparison is more difficult because Rain won stuff, was a pioneer in how to play protoss his way, etc. As for soO, it’s difficult to see him there but not Dark, who was the best Zerg in the world in 2016 / 2019 and remained a top Zerg for long, while winning important tournaments.
This Dark thing is so disappointing. It's been weeks of the same argument to which I can't respond despite having way more information available to me atm than you guys. Oh well, have to wait for blog stuff and hope people would be up for a good faith discussion.
Looking forward to hearing the rationale. I think Dark benefits a lot from recency bias. Without researching and just off the top of my head he was just starting to breakout around the end of HotS but didn't have "true" success until the scene dwindled a bit. It's far less impressive to win in a scene with less than 32 good players vs when the team houses were in full swing.
On February 20 2024 23:49 Balnazza wrote: Mvp also played in the lowest skill-era of competitive SC2 history - the game was new, no Kespa-Koreans yet and the wonkiest of the 3 addons. Sure, maybe the highest amount of players, but so unrefined compared to today or even HotS.
Yeah, and also he played terran in one of the most terran-favored eras of SC2.
It's amusing that imbalances in favor of terran tend to receive much less attention on TL than other supposed issues. Do you all recall what WoL looked it like? A good part of it consisted of patching out the most hilariously broken terran-favored imbalances and maps, like barracks before depots and steppes of war and and the early temple and queens being garbage and spores requiring evos and so on and so on, making even the slightest misread in ZvT an instant game-winner for the terran.
This is not to discredit MVP, he was a great player of course.
It's because Protoss and Zerg still won quite a bit in early WoL. Unlike the peaks of Zerg imbalance where they were literally the only ones winning anything noteworthy.
On February 21 2024 00:12 LennX wrote: Will there be a #0? Im struggling to see Dark being out of the top 10. The top 3 should already be locked in per everyone mentioning Rouge Maru Serral...
I doubt it. soO > Dark is the most peculiar thing about this ranking though, because both won their only WC when zerg was absolutely overpowered (2019) while Dark was also doing well in GSL at other times and actually won the thing. He even made top 2 in 2016 in an epic series versus ByuN, and was overall a feared opponent among foreigners and still is despite being far past his prime. Whereas soO lost to Zhugeliang and stuff, and never won a single GSL. soO literally had the game to be completely broken to be able to win a prestigious tournament, similarly to Messi getting a WC handed to him before his retirement
Along with Rain it’s probably the most debatable shout
It’s like SC2’s ultimate Kong versus, for my money probably the player who was a top, top consistent contender for the longest without winning a huge amount.
I don’t think any direction it goes is especially outrageous. Maru’s fourpeat is one of those achievements that overshadows what came before.
If memory serves, nobody had made more than 2 consecutive finals before soO, and he made 4. Maru doing what he’s done has made soO’s runs less bonkers in retrospect, but at the time they were insane.
Dark may cumulatively have slightly more top 8/4 finishes, and he made more hay in the latter stages of the scene. Equally soO had to go to military not all that long after finally casting off the Kong Kurse and missed that period where Dark and Rogue were hoovering up titles
It’s that close really I wouldn’t even expend the energy of a shoulder shrug if either made top 10 at the other’s expense.
I mean with Rain the comparison is more difficult because Rain won stuff, was a pioneer in how to play protoss his way, etc. As for soO, it’s difficult to see him there but not Dark, who was the best Zerg in the world in 2016 / 2019 and remained a top Zerg for long, while winning important tournaments.
This Dark thing is so disappointing. It's been weeks of the same argument to which I can't respond despite having way more information available to me atm than you guys. Oh well, have to wait for blog stuff and hope people would be up for a good faith discussion.
There is no reason you can't make a blog post now about Dark, particularly since its a highly debated topic in the community. Everyone would enjoy it. No need to follow self-imposed rules if they don't make sense.
And now would be the time to do it, considering the community is more than happy to continue speculating about the exact order of the top 3 and Dark prior to #3 being published.
On February 21 2024 00:12 LennX wrote: Will there be a #0? Im struggling to see Dark being out of the top 10. The top 3 should already be locked in per everyone mentioning Rouge Maru Serral...
soO literally had the game to be completely broken to be able to win a prestigious tournament, similarly to Messi getting a WC handed to him before his retirement
Not even addressing the ridiculous mention of a bo1 (Zhuge took a map from Serral and Lambo in the same summer with that strat btw), this is such an insane statement that not even the infamous ZParcraft 2 article can contest it in terran delusions. With all due respect if i wrote such blatant whine it'd be straight in the balance whine ban dumpster with me.
It's okay he's a writer now, the 20+ bans for balance whine are long behind him
I might have been a little bit too passionate about Starcraft 2 in the past
On February 21 2024 00:12 LennX wrote: Will there be a #0? Im struggling to see Dark being out of the top 10. The top 3 should already be locked in per everyone mentioning Rouge Maru Serral...
I doubt it. soO > Dark is the most peculiar thing about this ranking though, because both won their only WC when zerg was absolutely overpowered (2019) while Dark was also doing well in GSL at other times and actually won the thing. He even made top 2 in 2016 in an epic series versus ByuN, and was overall a feared opponent among foreigners and still is despite being far past his prime. Whereas soO lost to Zhugeliang and stuff, and never won a single GSL. soO literally had the game to be completely broken to be able to win a prestigious tournament, similarly to Messi getting a WC handed to him before his retirement
Along with Rain it’s probably the most debatable shout
It’s like SC2’s ultimate Kong versus, for my money probably the player who was a top, top consistent contender for the longest without winning a huge amount.
I don’t think any direction it goes is especially outrageous. Maru’s fourpeat is one of those achievements that overshadows what came before.
If memory serves, nobody had made more than 2 consecutive finals before soO, and he made 4. Maru doing what he’s done has made soO’s runs less bonkers in retrospect, but at the time they were insane.
Dark may cumulatively have slightly more top 8/4 finishes, and he made more hay in the latter stages of the scene. Equally soO had to go to military not all that long after finally casting off the Kong Kurse and missed that period where Dark and Rogue were hoovering up titles
It’s that close really I wouldn’t even expend the energy of a shoulder shrug if either made top 10 at the other’s expense.
You can add TY to the list as well. He won his GSL when terran was overpowered
On February 20 2024 23:49 Balnazza wrote: I will admit, I forgot Mvp originally and was surprised when people brought him up as #4 instead of Dark. And even though I was against it, I can see his merits and reasons to be included in the Top 10. No. 4 however just feels way too high. He was dominant for a very short amount of time, with an inflated number of GSL wins. Like Maru, Mvp has won three GSLs in a year (I think...does that GSL Championship thingy count as a GSL?). But Maru won 3 out of 3, while Mvp won 3 out of 11. I know it is a projection, but imagine 2018 still had so many GSLs and Maru would have won like 7 out of 11...would anyone even talk about Mvp at this point?
Mvp also played in the lowest skill-era of competitive SC2 history - the game was new, no Kespa-Koreans yet and the wonkiest of the 3 addons. Sure, maybe the highest amount of players, but so unrefined compared to today or even HotS. I don't want to say it was "easy" to be as dominant as he was, of course not. But in my opinion it doesn't hold up to stronger players in later years.
Lastly, I don't think we can really ignore how Mvp left the scene. His last professional match was a 2-3 vs. MorroW, after that he only played a couple of qualifiers. Of course that might be him still trying against his injury, but it doesn't particularly scream "Vice-Vice-Vice-GOAT!" either.
Yes, at the time the game was still getting figured out, there was a lot of balancing which players constantly needed to adapt to and here's the thing - it was the same for everyone, nobody had a headstart or anything, so saying that the skill level wasn't as good and therefore concluding Mvp had an easier time doesn't really make sense to me, as you have to put what he did into historical context.
What people tend to forget is that we had an insane number of tournaments and leagues back then, the game was much more popular. A much higher cadence of specifically GSL (and GSTL) also meant less preparation time per match played and it comes with a higher overall volatility due to the game still being subject to getting further figured out by players/new strategies being discovered and the need of patches/balance adjustments in response to that, which, as we know, affected the outcome of quite a few tournaments over the game's lifecycle - and not always in favor of Terran. Pair this with the team house training regiments of the time this probably puts a higher strain on professional pro players, which can also contribute to higher fluctuation in performance and this, again, also is something Mvp was affected in the same way as the rest of the playing field.
We also should not forget here that Maru's G5L trophy was originally created for Mvp 10 years prior, which is insane to think about as nobody else even came close for a decade.
Regarding his twilight years and how he went out I also fail to see how this is used as an argument against him, just the opposite, he really tried despite his worsening condition and you could definitely see that he just couldn't pull off the mechanics anymore and thus had to rely on more gimmicky ways to take games off of opponents, which IMO really shows what a phenomenal understanding Mvp had of the game and is just further testament to his skill. Why he retired the way he did? I don't know and while I'm always sad when players just silently fade away without having a chance to wave a proper goodbye this in no way tarnishes their accolades IMO.
Mvp was essentially the closest thing to a Bonjwa we got at the time in a game that was brutally volatile during this early era, which was loaded with the most competition the game has ever seen.
On February 21 2024 00:12 LennX wrote: Will there be a #0? Im struggling to see Dark being out of the top 10. The top 3 should already be locked in per everyone mentioning Rouge Maru Serral...
I doubt it. soO > Dark is the most peculiar thing about this ranking though, because both won their only WC when zerg was absolutely overpowered (2019) while Dark was also doing well in GSL at other times and actually won the thing. He even made top 2 in 2016 in an epic series versus ByuN, and was overall a feared opponent among foreigners and still is despite being far past his prime. Whereas soO lost to Zhugeliang and stuff, and never won a single GSL. soO literally had the game to be completely broken to be able to win a prestigious tournament, similarly to Messi getting a WC handed to him before his retirement
Along with Rain it’s probably the most debatable shout
It’s like SC2’s ultimate Kong versus, for my money probably the player who was a top, top consistent contender for the longest without winning a huge amount.
I don’t think any direction it goes is especially outrageous. Maru’s fourpeat is one of those achievements that overshadows what came before.
If memory serves, nobody had made more than 2 consecutive finals before soO, and he made 4. Maru doing what he’s done has made soO’s runs less bonkers in retrospect, but at the time they were insane.
Dark may cumulatively have slightly more top 8/4 finishes, and he made more hay in the latter stages of the scene. Equally soO had to go to military not all that long after finally casting off the Kong Kurse and missed that period where Dark and Rogue were hoovering up titles
It’s that close really I wouldn’t even expend the energy of a shoulder shrug if either made top 10 at the other’s expense.
I mean with Rain the comparison is more difficult because Rain won stuff, was a pioneer in how to play protoss his way, etc. As for soO, it’s difficult to see him there but not Dark, who was the best Zerg in the world in 2016 / 2019 and remained a top Zerg for long, while winning important tournaments.
This Dark thing is so disappointing. It's been weeks of the same argument to which I can't respond despite having way more information available to me atm than you guys. Oh well, have to wait for blog stuff and hope people would be up for a good faith discussion.
There is no reason you can't make a blog post now about Dark, particularly since its a highly debated topic in the community. Everyone would enjoy it. No need to follow self-imposed rules if they don't make sense.
And now would be the time to do it, considering the community is more than happy to continue speculating about the exact order of the top 3 and Dark prior to #3 being published.
I'm just being a whiner that's all I personally think it's better to wait until after the series to put out more stuff, but that's also to buy me time since these posts will take hours to do.
On February 21 2024 01:03 Nasigil wrote: The only reason anyone would place soO above Dark is if they VASTLY value peak over longevity.
soO had a slightly higher peak than Dark when he had like 4 straight GSL finals appearance and considered undoubtedly the best Zerg in the world. But Dark in 2016 was also considered best Zerg in the world unless my memory is tricking me. He reached the WCS finals during a time Zerg was relatively weak and you regularly see only one or no Zerg in tournament Ro.8. There's really not that big of a difference between their peak.
But Dark just has so much better longevity, he's been like top 3 Zerg and top 5 player in the world for last 8 years, got one world champ and one runner up, have even more 2nd places than soO had at this point, and of course much more first place.
It’s that tricky business of what do you value. And IMO there are many wrong answers, but few right ones.
Is the guy who’s top 4-8 for a decade greater than the bloke who’s the best, or second best for a few?
I think the scene just fell off slightly too early for Dark, + he didn’t capitalise as much as he could have, in combination.
If the scene had remained deeper, Dark’s USP of being just this resolutely consistent presence deep in tournaments counts for slightly more. If he’d made even slightly more hay while the sun shined, he leapfrogs other players. As it is soO has more going for him in a tougher competitive era, even if it’s maybe more streaky, and Rogue took way better advantage of the last 4/5 years in populating his trophy cabinet.
Essentially while this isn’t a widely shared position, I do think Dark’s career > Rogue’s overall. If Dark had even traded Starleagues and WCs with Rogue in this era it wouldn’t even be a question.
Yeah soO can be argued to be above Dark if you value results during the Kespa era highly but it makes absolutely 0 sense to have TY over Dark. They competed in the same era and Dark outperformed him in every metric
On February 21 2024 00:12 LennX wrote: Will there be a #0? Im struggling to see Dark being out of the top 10. The top 3 should already be locked in per everyone mentioning Rouge Maru Serral...
I doubt it. soO > Dark is the most peculiar thing about this ranking though, because both won their only WC when zerg was absolutely overpowered (2019) while Dark was also doing well in GSL at other times and actually won the thing. He even made top 2 in 2016 in an epic series versus ByuN, and was overall a feared opponent among foreigners and still is despite being far past his prime. Whereas soO lost to Zhugeliang and stuff, and never won a single GSL. soO literally had the game to be completely broken to be able to win a prestigious tournament, similarly to Messi getting a WC handed to him before his retirement
Along with Rain it’s probably the most debatable shout
It’s like SC2’s ultimate Kong versus, for my money probably the player who was a top, top consistent contender for the longest without winning a huge amount.
I don’t think any direction it goes is especially outrageous. Maru’s fourpeat is one of those achievements that overshadows what came before.
If memory serves, nobody had made more than 2 consecutive finals before soO, and he made 4. Maru doing what he’s done has made soO’s runs less bonkers in retrospect, but at the time they were insane.
Dark may cumulatively have slightly more top 8/4 finishes, and he made more hay in the latter stages of the scene. Equally soO had to go to military not all that long after finally casting off the Kong Kurse and missed that period where Dark and Rogue were hoovering up titles
It’s that close really I wouldn’t even expend the energy of a shoulder shrug if either made top 10 at the other’s expense.
I mean with Rain the comparison is more difficult because Rain won stuff, was a pioneer in how to play protoss his way, etc. As for soO, it’s difficult to see him there but not Dark, who was the best Zerg in the world in 2016 / 2019 and remained a top Zerg for long, while winning important tournaments.
This Dark thing is so disappointing. It's been weeks of the same argument to which I can't respond despite having way more information available to me atm than you guys. Oh well, have to wait for blog stuff and hope people would be up for a good faith discussion.
Looking forward to hearing the rationale. I think Dark benefits a lot from recency bias. Without researching and just off the top of my head he was just starting to breakout around the end of HotS but didn't have "true" success until the scene dwindled a bit. It's far less impressive to win in a scene with less than 32 good players vs when the team houses were in full swing.
On February 20 2024 23:49 Balnazza wrote: I will admit, I forgot Mvp originally and was surprised when people brought him up as #4 instead of Dark. And even though I was against it, I can see his merits and reasons to be included in the Top 10. No. 4 however just feels way too high. He was dominant for a very short amount of time, with an inflated number of GSL wins. Like Maru, Mvp has won three GSLs in a year (I think...does that GSL Championship thingy count as a GSL?). But Maru won 3 out of 3, while Mvp won 3 out of 11. I know it is a projection, but imagine 2018 still had so many GSLs and Maru would have won like 7 out of 11...would anyone even talk about Mvp at this point?
Mvp also played in the lowest skill-era of competitive SC2 history - the game was new, no Kespa-Koreans yet and the wonkiest of the 3 addons. Sure, maybe the highest amount of players, but so unrefined compared to today or even HotS. I don't want to say it was "easy" to be as dominant as he was, of course not. But in my opinion it doesn't hold up to stronger players in later years.
Lastly, I don't think we can really ignore how Mvp left the scene. His last professional match was a 2-3 vs. MorroW, after that he only played a couple of qualifiers. Of course that might be him still trying against his injury, but it doesn't particularly scream "Vice-Vice-Vice-GOAT!" either.
Yes, at the time the game was still getting figured out, there was a lot of balancing which players constantly needed to adapt to and here's the thing - it was the same for everyone, nobody had a headstart or anything, so saying that the skill level wasn't as good and therefore concluding Mvp had an easier time doesn't really make sense to me, as you have to put what he did into historical context.
What people tend to forget is that we had an insane number of tournaments and leagues back then, the game was much more popular. A much higher cadence of specifically GSL (and GSTL) also meant less preparation time per match played and it comes with a higher overall volatility due to the game still being subject to getting further figured out by players/new strategies being discovered and the need of patches/balance adjustments in response to that, which, as we know, affected the outcome of quite a few tournaments over the game's lifecycle - and not always in favor of Terran. Pair this with the team house training regiments of the time this probably puts a higher strain on professional pro players, which can also contribute to higher fluctuation in performance and this, again, also is something Mvp was affected in the same way as the rest of the playing field.
We also should not forget here that Maru's G5L trophy was originally created for Mvp 10 years prior, which is insane to think about as nobody else even came close for a decade.
Regarding his twilight years and how he went out I also fail to see how this is used as an argument against him, just the opposite, he really tried despite his worsening condition and you could definitely see that he just couldn't pull off the mechanics anymore and thus had to rely on more gimmicky ways to take games off of opponents, which IMO really shows what a phenomenal understanding Mvp had of the game and is just further testament to his skill. Why he retired the way he did? I don't know and while I'm always sad when players just silently fade away without having a chance to wave a proper goodbye this in no way tarnishes their accolades IMO.
Mvp was essentially the closest thing to a Bonjwa we got at the time in a game that was brutally volatile during this early era, which was loaded with the most competition the game has ever seen.
On February 21 2024 00:12 LennX wrote: Will there be a #0? Im struggling to see Dark being out of the top 10. The top 3 should already be locked in per everyone mentioning Rouge Maru Serral...
I doubt it. soO > Dark is the most peculiar thing about this ranking though, because both won their only WC when zerg was absolutely overpowered (2019) while Dark was also doing well in GSL at other times and actually won the thing. He even made top 2 in 2016 in an epic series versus ByuN, and was overall a feared opponent among foreigners and still is despite being far past his prime. Whereas soO lost to Zhugeliang and stuff, and never won a single GSL. soO literally had the game to be completely broken to be able to win a prestigious tournament, similarly to Messi getting a WC handed to him before his retirement
Along with Rain it’s probably the most debatable shout
It’s like SC2’s ultimate Kong versus, for my money probably the player who was a top, top consistent contender for the longest without winning a huge amount.
I don’t think any direction it goes is especially outrageous. Maru’s fourpeat is one of those achievements that overshadows what came before.
If memory serves, nobody had made more than 2 consecutive finals before soO, and he made 4. Maru doing what he’s done has made soO’s runs less bonkers in retrospect, but at the time they were insane.
Dark may cumulatively have slightly more top 8/4 finishes, and he made more hay in the latter stages of the scene. Equally soO had to go to military not all that long after finally casting off the Kong Kurse and missed that period where Dark and Rogue were hoovering up titles
It’s that close really I wouldn’t even expend the energy of a shoulder shrug if either made top 10 at the other’s expense.
You can add TY to the list as well. He won his GSL when terran was overpowered
Nope, terran won 5 premier tournaments in 2020. Zerg won 10 premier tournaments between 6 different players
On February 20 2024 23:49 Balnazza wrote: I will admit, I forgot Mvp originally and was surprised when people brought him up as #4 instead of Dark. And even though I was against it, I can see his merits and reasons to be included in the Top 10. No. 4 however just feels way too high. He was dominant for a very short amount of time, with an inflated number of GSL wins. Like Maru, Mvp has won three GSLs in a year (I think...does that GSL Championship thingy count as a GSL?). But Maru won 3 out of 3, while Mvp won 3 out of 11. I know it is a projection, but imagine 2018 still had so many GSLs and Maru would have won like 7 out of 11...would anyone even talk about Mvp at this point?
Mvp also played in the lowest skill-era of competitive SC2 history - the game was new, no Kespa-Koreans yet and the wonkiest of the 3 addons. Sure, maybe the highest amount of players, but so unrefined compared to today or even HotS. I don't want to say it was "easy" to be as dominant as he was, of course not. But in my opinion it doesn't hold up to stronger players in later years.
Lastly, I don't think we can really ignore how Mvp left the scene. His last professional match was a 2-3 vs. MorroW, after that he only played a couple of qualifiers. Of course that might be him still trying against his injury, but it doesn't particularly scream "Vice-Vice-Vice-GOAT!" either.
Yes, at the time the game was still getting figured out, there was a lot of balancing which players constantly needed to adapt to and here's the thing - it was the same for everyone, nobody had a headstart or anything, so saying that the skill level wasn't as good and therefore concluding Mvp had an easier time doesn't really make sense to me, as you have to put what he did into historical context.
What people tend to forget is that we had an insane number of tournaments and leagues back then, the game was much more popular. A much higher cadence of specifically GSL (and GSTL) also meant less preparation time per match played and it comes with a higher overall volatility due to the game still being subject to getting further figured out by players/new strategies being discovered and the need of patches/balance adjustments in response to that, which, as we know, affected the outcome of quite a few tournaments over the game's lifecycle - and not always in favor of Terran. Pair this with the team house training regiments of the time this probably puts a higher strain on professional pro players, which can also contribute to higher fluctuation in performance and this, again, also is something Mvp was affected in the same way as the rest of the playing field.
We also should not forget here that Maru's G5L trophy was originally created for Mvp 10 years prior, which is insane to think about as nobody else even came close for a decade.
Regarding his twilight years and how he went out I also fail to see how this is used as an argument against him, just the opposite, he really tried despite his worsening condition and you could definitely see that he just couldn't pull off the mechanics anymore and thus had to rely on more gimmicky ways to take games off of opponents, which IMO really shows what a phenomenal understanding Mvp had of the game and is just further testament to his skill. Why he retired the way he did? I don't know and while I'm always sad when players just silently fade away without having a chance to wave a proper goodbye this in no way tarnishes their accolades IMO.
Mvp was essentially the closest thing to a Bonjwa we got at the time in a game that was brutally volatile during this early era, which was loaded with the most competition the game has ever seen.
On February 21 2024 00:12 LennX wrote: Will there be a #0? Im struggling to see Dark being out of the top 10. The top 3 should already be locked in per everyone mentioning Rouge Maru Serral...
I doubt it. soO > Dark is the most peculiar thing about this ranking though, because both won their only WC when zerg was absolutely overpowered (2019) while Dark was also doing well in GSL at other times and actually won the thing. He even made top 2 in 2016 in an epic series versus ByuN, and was overall a feared opponent among foreigners and still is despite being far past his prime. Whereas soO lost to Zhugeliang and stuff, and never won a single GSL. soO literally had the game to be completely broken to be able to win a prestigious tournament, similarly to Messi getting a WC handed to him before his retirement
Along with Rain it’s probably the most debatable shout
It’s like SC2’s ultimate Kong versus, for my money probably the player who was a top, top consistent contender for the longest without winning a huge amount.
I don’t think any direction it goes is especially outrageous. Maru’s fourpeat is one of those achievements that overshadows what came before.
If memory serves, nobody had made more than 2 consecutive finals before soO, and he made 4. Maru doing what he’s done has made soO’s runs less bonkers in retrospect, but at the time they were insane.
Dark may cumulatively have slightly more top 8/4 finishes, and he made more hay in the latter stages of the scene. Equally soO had to go to military not all that long after finally casting off the Kong Kurse and missed that period where Dark and Rogue were hoovering up titles
It’s that close really I wouldn’t even expend the energy of a shoulder shrug if either made top 10 at the other’s expense.
I mean with Rain the comparison is more difficult because Rain won stuff, was a pioneer in how to play protoss his way, etc. As for soO, it’s difficult to see him there but not Dark, who was the best Zerg in the world in 2016 / 2019 and remained a top Zerg for long, while winning important tournaments.
This Dark thing is so disappointing. It's been weeks of the same argument to which I can't respond despite having way more information available to me atm than you guys. Oh well, have to wait for blog stuff and hope people would be up for a good faith discussion.
I have no pitchfork in my hand. It's pretty clear that you considered Dark very seriously since he's in just about every spreadsheet you've shown so far comparing winrates, championships etc. I'm very excited to hear the reasoning, since it feels like we've been getting almost every angle of it except for the actual message hahaha, it's almost like a movie trailer
I wonder what we readers have missed so far. Dark's statistics definitely don't seem outrageously good, but they seem comparable to just about everybody else on this list (except peak inno/maru/serral/mvp years and Rogue/sOs for WCs). Could it be that Dark's winrate against fellow S-tier competition is much poorer (which I don't have the statistics for, but feel like could certainly be the case)? Could it be that he's never been a meta-defining player since his style is inimitable? It can't be his lack of clutchness in finals, since he's no worse than soO (though his finals have mostly come in a less competitive era, so that's a ding against him). There are definitely plenty of possible reasons, so I wonder which one[s] tipped your hand. It's your list after all
I do hope Dark is 11 though, since then my favorite three players of Rain/Dark/TY will be right next to each other :D
On February 20 2024 23:49 Balnazza wrote: I will admit, I forgot Mvp originally and was surprised when people brought him up as #4 instead of Dark. And even though I was against it, I can see his merits and reasons to be included in the Top 10. No. 4 however just feels way too high. He was dominant for a very short amount of time, with an inflated number of GSL wins. Like Maru, Mvp has won three GSLs in a year (I think...does that GSL Championship thingy count as a GSL?). But Maru won 3 out of 3, while Mvp won 3 out of 11. I know it is a projection, but imagine 2018 still had so many GSLs and Maru would have won like 7 out of 11...would anyone even talk about Mvp at this point?
Mvp also played in the lowest skill-era of competitive SC2 history - the game was new, no Kespa-Koreans yet and the wonkiest of the 3 addons. Sure, maybe the highest amount of players, but so unrefined compared to today or even HotS. I don't want to say it was "easy" to be as dominant as he was, of course not. But in my opinion it doesn't hold up to stronger players in later years.
Lastly, I don't think we can really ignore how Mvp left the scene. His last professional match was a 2-3 vs. MorroW, after that he only played a couple of qualifiers. Of course that might be him still trying against his injury, but it doesn't particularly scream "Vice-Vice-Vice-GOAT!" either.
Yes, at the time the game was still getting figured out, there was a lot of balancing which players constantly needed to adapt to and here's the thing - it was the same for everyone, nobody had a headstart or anything, so saying that the skill level wasn't as good and therefore concluding Mvp had an easier time doesn't really make sense to me, as you have to put what he did into historical context.
What people tend to forget is that we had an insane number of tournaments and leagues back then, the game was much more popular. A much higher cadence of specifically GSL (and GSTL) also meant less preparation time per match played and it comes with a higher overall volatility due to the game still being subject to getting further figured out by players/new strategies being discovered and the need of patches/balance adjustments in response to that, which, as we know, affected the outcome of quite a few tournaments over the game's lifecycle - and not always in favor of Terran. Pair this with the team house training regiments of the time this probably puts a higher strain on professional pro players, which can also contribute to higher fluctuation in performance and this, again, also is something Mvp was affected in the same way as the rest of the playing field.
We also should not forget here that Maru's G5L trophy was originally created for Mvp 10 years prior, which is insane to think about as nobody else even came close for a decade.
Regarding his twilight years and how he went out I also fail to see how this is used as an argument against him, just the opposite, he really tried despite his worsening condition and you could definitely see that he just couldn't pull off the mechanics anymore and thus had to rely on more gimmicky ways to take games off of opponents, which IMO really shows what a phenomenal understanding Mvp had of the game and is just further testament to his skill. Why he retired the way he did? I don't know and while I'm always sad when players just silently fade away without having a chance to wave a proper goodbye this in no way tarnishes their accolades IMO.
Mvp was essentially the closest thing to a Bonjwa we got at the time in a game that was brutally volatile during this early era, which was loaded with the most competition the game has ever seen.
I consider mvp to be the most dominant player ever because unlike serral (who is better than everyone) the scene was a lot more condensed in wol. Almost all the Koreans were in gsl and mvp saw the rest at Lans. Serral has experienced the misfortune of existing in a time when region locked events lead to less games against top tier competition (I have no doubt serral would dominate even more than mvp if he played koreans a few extra times per year) which for me lessens his aura of dominance. But that's all minutae.
On February 20 2024 23:49 Balnazza wrote: I will admit, I forgot Mvp originally and was surprised when people brought him up as #4 instead of Dark. And even though I was against it, I can see his merits and reasons to be included in the Top 10. No. 4 however just feels way too high. He was dominant for a very short amount of time, with an inflated number of GSL wins. Like Maru, Mvp has won three GSLs in a year (I think...does that GSL Championship thingy count as a GSL?). But Maru won 3 out of 3, while Mvp won 3 out of 11. I know it is a projection, but imagine 2018 still had so many GSLs and Maru would have won like 7 out of 11...would anyone even talk about Mvp at this point?
Mvp also played in the lowest skill-era of competitive SC2 history - the game was new, no Kespa-Koreans yet and the wonkiest of the 3 addons. Sure, maybe the highest amount of players, but so unrefined compared to today or even HotS. I don't want to say it was "easy" to be as dominant as he was, of course not. But in my opinion it doesn't hold up to stronger players in later years.
Lastly, I don't think we can really ignore how Mvp left the scene. His last professional match was a 2-3 vs. MorroW, after that he only played a couple of qualifiers. Of course that might be him still trying against his injury, but it doesn't particularly scream "Vice-Vice-Vice-GOAT!" either.
Yes, at the time the game was still getting figured out, there was a lot of balancing which players constantly needed to adapt to and here's the thing - it was the same for everyone, nobody had a headstart or anything, so saying that the skill level wasn't as good and therefore concluding Mvp had an easier time doesn't really make sense to me, as you have to put what he did into historical context.
What people tend to forget is that we had an insane number of tournaments and leagues back then, the game was much more popular. A much higher cadence of specifically GSL (and GSTL) also meant less preparation time per match played and it comes with a higher overall volatility due to the game still being subject to getting further figured out by players/new strategies being discovered and the need of patches/balance adjustments in response to that, which, as we know, affected the outcome of quite a few tournaments over the game's lifecycle - and not always in favor of Terran. Pair this with the team house training regiments of the time this probably puts a higher strain on professional pro players, which can also contribute to higher fluctuation in performance and this, again, also is something Mvp was affected in the same way as the rest of the playing field.
We also should not forget here that Maru's G5L trophy was originally created for Mvp 10 years prior, which is insane to think about as nobody else even came close for a decade.
Regarding his twilight years and how he went out I also fail to see how this is used as an argument against him, just the opposite, he really tried despite his worsening condition and you could definitely see that he just couldn't pull off the mechanics anymore and thus had to rely on more gimmicky ways to take games off of opponents, which IMO really shows what a phenomenal understanding Mvp had of the game and is just further testament to his skill. Why he retired the way he did? I don't know and while I'm always sad when players just silently fade away without having a chance to wave a proper goodbye this in no way tarnishes their accolades IMO.
Mvp was essentially the closest thing to a Bonjwa we got at the time in a game that was brutally volatile during this early era, which was loaded with the most competition the game has ever seen.
I consider mvp to be the most dominant player ever because unlike serral (who is better than everyone) the scene was a lot more condensed. Almost all the Koreans were in gsl and mvp saw the rest at Lans. Serral has experienced the misfortune of existing in a time when region locked events lead to less games against top tier competition (I have no doubt serral would dominate if that were the case) which for me lessens his aura of dominance. But that's all minutae.
I feel similar, but this is probably just due to a big nostalgia bias for SC2's heyday and how fierce the competition felt due to things just being more popular overall. There's very little doubt modern players are just more refined and better mechanically, but Mvp truly felt like an anomaly back then, so I for my part am glad you put him in #4 here
Damn, Dark pretty much confirmed to be out of Top 10 then.
Rogue pretty much is next then. Though, I would be pleasantly surprised if the Top 3 is not Serral Maru Rogue, and especially hyped if Rogue is above either Serral or Maru. Since the list so far is a more unique take and doesn't reflect popular sentiment, I'm ready for it to go all the way and give a spicy Top 3 take
First of all Miz, excellent work. Your writing is so fun to read as always.
The quasi-confirmation that Dark didn't make the top 10 really surpised me though. Let's look at the comparison to Rain, specifically.
Notable tournament finishes (Rain): 2012 WCS Asia: 1st place 2012 OnGameNet Starleague: 1st place 2013 OnGameNet Starleague: 2nd place 2013 GSL Hot6ix Cup: 1st place 2015 IEM San Jose: 2nd place 2015 Code S Season 2: 1st place 2015 HomeStory Cup 11: 1st place
Notable Tournament Finishes (Dark): 2016 Code S Season 1: 1st Place 2016 WCS Korea: 1st Place 2016 WCS Global Championships: 2nd Place 2019 GSL Code S Season 2: 1st Place 2019 GSL AfreecaTV Super Tournament 2: 1st Place 2019 WCS Global Finals: 1st Place 2020 Teamliquid StarLeague 6: 1st Place 2021 GSL Season 2: 1st Place 2022 GSL Afreeka TV Super Tournament 1: 2nd Place 2023 GSL Code S Season 2: 2nd Place
There's plenty of other tournaments, including premier tournaments that Dark placed in the top 4 of that I haven't even mentioned above.
I simply cannot see a logic behind including Rain but not him. Heck, I'm not sure that TY even deserves his spot above Dark. Let's look at the justification of that:
The Placement
TY and #10 player Rain are similar for their consistent, high-level play in Korean Individual Leagues, and their list of top-four finishes is very similar (TY: 2x first place, 2x second place, 2x RO4 finishes // Rain: 2x first place, 1x second place, 3x RO4).
However, TY gets the nod for ninth place by surpassing Rain in a couple of key areas. The biggest differentiating factor was TY's results in world championship-tier tournaments—TY won both IEM and WESG, while Rain's best result was top 3 at BWC/WCS 2012. Also, TY's stretch of consistently great domestic play lasted for five years, compared to Rain's three and a half. Overall, TY was the obvious choice to slot in right ahead of Rain.
Okay, so let's look at top four finishes in Korean Individual Leagues, and world championship tournaments. Fortunately, Miz already did the math for us:
Korean Individual Leagues: TY: 2x first place, 2x second place, 2x RO4 Rain: 2x first place, 1x second place, 3x RO4 Dark: 2x first place, 3x second place, 4x RO4.
So, equal number of first places, but more consistent finals and semi-finals appearances for Dark. Let's look at world championship events:
TY: 1st Place IEM 2017, 1st Place WESG 2017 Rain: 3rd Place BWC/WCS 2012 Dark: 1st Place WCS 2019, 2nd Place WCS Global Championships 2016
Here we see that the logic that places TY above Rain unquestionably puts Dark above Rain as well. So, what gives?
Could it be that Dark's winrate against fellow S-tier competition is much poorer (which I don't have the statistics for, but feel like could certainly be the case)?
I don't think it's that either, as Miz notes Dark's impressive win-rate against TY:
From what I can read from the TY article, it's mostly this 3% lower overall win-rate in Korean Individual Leagues, despite having the more impressive record in terms of Top4+ appearences in those leagues when compared to TY:
TY's consistent strength is also apparent in his overall win-loss record in Korean Individual Leagues. From the start of LotV up until his military service, he was neck-and-neck with Maru in terms of having the best statistics. TY's map win-rate of 64.9% (170W-92L) was slightly head of Maru's 63.8% (166W-94L), while his series win-rate of 69.8% (60W-26L) was second only to Maru's 73.2% (60W-22). When it comes to Dark, Stats, and Rogue, the other top players during this time frame, their win-rates all trail slightly or considerably behind TY.
We should note however, that even by that math, the match win rate (which I'd argue is more important than map win rate) is even closer.
Heck, LOOK at that consistency from Dark, the only one on that chart to qualify for every listed event in that table!
To me, there's just something not-correct about puttin Rain above Dark for the top 10, given the criteria we know about. When we look at weekenders, this becomes even more apparent, but I won't belabor that point as they're weighted lightly by the criteria we know about.
The #10 spot on any top 10 is almost always a vanity pick, I think Miz is just a really big Rain fan. He was a successful player and he inspired some kind of particular feeling within Miz, an intangible that put him above some dudes with better results.
On February 21 2024 06:50 RPR_Tempest wrote: The #10 spot on any top 10 is almost always a vanity pick, I think Miz is just a really big Rain fan. He was a successful player and he inspired some kind of particular feeling within Miz, an intangible that put him above some dudes with better results.
That's fair, and to be fair I'm kinda just here procrastinating my work haha. You're right, I think I took the ranking a bit too literally. In reality, Dark is at minimum #10. (Though I'd still argue that when I look at the records, he's above TY as well).
On February 21 2024 06:50 RPR_Tempest wrote: The #10 spot on any top 10 is almost always a vanity pick, I think Miz is just a really big Rain fan. He was a successful player and he inspired some kind of particular feeling within Miz, an intangible that put him above some dudes with better results.
That's fair, and to be fair I'm kinda just here procrastinating my work haha. You're right, I think I took the ranking a bit too literally. In reality, Dark is at minimum #10. (Though I'd still argue that when I look at the records, he's above TY as well).
I agree with you there, I'd put Dark above Rain, sOs and TY.
On February 21 2024 06:15 TheDougler wrote: There's plenty of other tournaments, including premier tournaments that Dark placed in the top 4 of that I haven't even mentioned above.
I simply cannot see a logic behind including Rain but not him. Heck, I'm not sure that TY even deserves his spot above Dark.
We should note however, that even by that math, the match win rate (which I'd argue is more important than map win rate) is even closer.
Heck, LOOK at that consistency from Dark, the only one on that chart to qualify for every listed event in that table!
To me, there's just something not-correct about puttin Rain above Dark for the top 10, given the criteria we know about. When we look at weekenders, this becomes even more apparent, but I won't belabor that point as they're weighted lightly by the criteria we know about.
Nice writeup! I felt the achievements didn't stack up, but didn't do a deep dive like you have. I definitely agree that match win rate is way more important than map win rate. Players' goals is to ultimately defeat their opponents, which you do by winning the match, which is not the same as having as high of a map winrate as possible. It's better to win 99% of matches 2-1 by a thread, than to win 95% of matches 2-0.
A reason for Dark not making it though could also just be due to his achievements being more spread out. "Form is temporary, Class is permanent" kind of thing. I feel that longevity is not valued as much in this list as others do, unless that longevity has them being at the very top (I consider Dark to be at the bottom of the very top of other active players throughout the years, but he's usually around 3rd-5th best I guess).
On February 21 2024 06:15 TheDougler wrote: First of all Miz, excellent work. Your writing is so fun to read as always.
The quasi-confirmation that Dark didn't make the top 10 really surpised me though. Let's look at the comparison to Rain, specifically.
Notable tournament finishes (Rain): 2012 WCS Asia: 1st place 2012 OnGameNet Starleague: 1st place 2013 OnGameNet Starleague: 2nd place 2013 GSL Hot6ix Cup: 1st place 2015 IEM San Jose: 2nd place 2015 Code S Season 2: 1st place 2015 HomeStory Cup 11: 1st place
Notable Tournament Finishes (Dark): 2016 Code S Season 1: 1st Place 2016 WCS Korea: 1st Place 2016 WCS Global Championships: 2nd Place 2019 GSL Code S Season 2: 1st Place 2019 GSL AfreecaTV Super Tournament 2: 1st Place 2019 WCS Global Finals: 1st Place 2020 Teamliquid StarLeague 6: 1st Place 2021 GSL Season 2: 1st Place 2022 GSL Afreeka TV Super Tournament 1: 2nd Place 2023 GSL Code S Season 2: 2nd Place
There's plenty of other tournaments, including premier tournaments that Dark placed in the top 4 of that I haven't even mentioned above.
I simply cannot see a logic behind including Rain but not him. Heck, I'm not sure that TY even deserves his spot above Dark. Let's look at the justification of that:
TY and #10 player Rain are similar for their consistent, high-level play in Korean Individual Leagues, and their list of top-four finishes is very similar (TY: 2x first place, 2x second place, 2x RO4 finishes // Rain: 2x first place, 1x second place, 3x RO4).
However, TY gets the nod for ninth place by surpassing Rain in a couple of key areas. The biggest differentiating factor was TY's results in world championship-tier tournaments—TY won both IEM and WESG, while Rain's best result was top 3 at BWC/WCS 2012. Also, TY's stretch of consistently great domestic play lasted for five years, compared to Rain's three and a half. Overall, TY was the obvious choice to slot in right ahead of Rain.
Okay, so let's look at top four finishes in Korean Individual Leagues, and world championship tournaments. Fortunately, Miz already did the math for us:
Korean Individual Leagues: TY: 2x first place, 2x second place, 2x RO4 Rain: 2x first place, 1x second place, 3x RO4 Dark: 2x first place, 3x second place, 4x RO4.
So, equal number of first places, but more consistent finals and semi-finals appearances for Dark. Let's look at world championship events:
TY: 1st Place IEM 2017, 1st Place WESG 2017 Rain: 3rd Place BWC/WCS 2012 Dark: 1st Place WCS 2019, 2nd Place WCS Global Championships 2016
Here we see that the logic that places TY above Rain unquestionably puts Dark above Rain as well. So, what gives?
Could it be that Dark's winrate against fellow S-tier competition is much poorer (which I don't have the statistics for, but feel like could certainly be the case)?
I don't think it's that either, as Miz notes Dark's impressive win-rate against TY:
From what I can read from the TY article, it's mostly this 3% lower overall win-rate in Korean Individual Leagues, despite having the more impressive record in terms of Top4+ appearences in those leagues when compared to TY:
TY's consistent strength is also apparent in his overall win-loss record in Korean Individual Leagues. From the start of LotV up until his military service, he was neck-and-neck with Maru in terms of having the best statistics. TY's map win-rate of 64.9% (170W-92L) was slightly head of Maru's 63.8% (166W-94L), while his series win-rate of 69.8% (60W-26L) was second only to Maru's 73.2% (60W-22). When it comes to Dark, Stats, and Rogue, the other top players during this time frame, their win-rates all trail slightly or considerably behind TY.
We should note however, that even by that math, the match win rate (which I'd argue is more important than map win rate) is even closer.
Heck, LOOK at that consistency from Dark, the only one on that chart to qualify for every listed event in that table!
To me, there's just something not-correct about puttin Rain above Dark for the top 10, given the criteria we know about. When we look at weekenders, this becomes even more apparent, but I won't belabor that point as they're weighted lightly by the criteria we know about.
Yeah, it's super strange. I'm waiting to see Miz's full explanation, but assuming there's no twist to the final spots (i.e. a tie with 4 players in the top 3), I can't even figure out a possible rationale for keeping Dark off the list. Personally, I don't feel like any of the stats used in the articles, such as particular winrates over a narrowly defined set of time where the player hit a peak, are particularly meaningful in the face of the long term, consistent success. And by that metric, Dark smokes every single player in SC2 history besides Serral and Maru. I can see the argument for MVP having better peak dominance, Inno having more success in the most competitive years, and Rogue having more premier golds, so that comes down to preference to whoever is making the list and what they personally weigh more heavily. But when players are on the list for having careers that are essentially just Dark's but worse, I take issue with that.
On February 21 2024 06:15 TheDougler wrote: First of all Miz, excellent work. Your writing is so fun to read as always.
The quasi-confirmation that Dark didn't make the top 10 really surpised me though. Let's look at the comparison to Rain, specifically.
Notable tournament finishes (Rain): 2012 WCS Asia: 1st place 2012 OnGameNet Starleague: 1st place 2013 OnGameNet Starleague: 2nd place 2013 GSL Hot6ix Cup: 1st place 2015 IEM San Jose: 2nd place 2015 Code S Season 2: 1st place 2015 HomeStory Cup 11: 1st place
Notable Tournament Finishes (Dark): 2016 Code S Season 1: 1st Place 2016 WCS Korea: 1st Place 2016 WCS Global Championships: 2nd Place 2019 GSL Code S Season 2: 1st Place 2019 GSL AfreecaTV Super Tournament 2: 1st Place 2019 WCS Global Finals: 1st Place 2020 Teamliquid StarLeague 6: 1st Place 2021 GSL Season 2: 1st Place 2022 GSL Afreeka TV Super Tournament 1: 2nd Place 2023 GSL Code S Season 2: 2nd Place
There's plenty of other tournaments, including premier tournaments that Dark placed in the top 4 of that I haven't even mentioned above.
I simply cannot see a logic behind including Rain but not him. Heck, I'm not sure that TY even deserves his spot above Dark. Let's look at the justification of that:
TY and #10 player Rain are similar for their consistent, high-level play in Korean Individual Leagues, and their list of top-four finishes is very similar (TY: 2x first place, 2x second place, 2x RO4 finishes // Rain: 2x first place, 1x second place, 3x RO4).
However, TY gets the nod for ninth place by surpassing Rain in a couple of key areas. The biggest differentiating factor was TY's results in world championship-tier tournaments—TY won both IEM and WESG, while Rain's best result was top 3 at BWC/WCS 2012. Also, TY's stretch of consistently great domestic play lasted for five years, compared to Rain's three and a half. Overall, TY was the obvious choice to slot in right ahead of Rain.
Okay, so let's look at top four finishes in Korean Individual Leagues, and world championship tournaments. Fortunately, Miz already did the math for us:
Korean Individual Leagues: TY: 2x first place, 2x second place, 2x RO4 Rain: 2x first place, 1x second place, 3x RO4 Dark: 2x first place, 3x second place, 4x RO4.
So, equal number of first places, but more consistent finals and semi-finals appearances for Dark. Let's look at world championship events:
TY: 1st Place IEM 2017, 1st Place WESG 2017 Rain: 3rd Place BWC/WCS 2012 Dark: 1st Place WCS 2019, 2nd Place WCS Global Championships 2016
Here we see that the logic that places TY above Rain unquestionably puts Dark above Rain as well. So, what gives?
Could it be that Dark's winrate against fellow S-tier competition is much poorer (which I don't have the statistics for, but feel like could certainly be the case)?
I don't think it's that either, as Miz notes Dark's impressive win-rate against TY:
From what I can read from the TY article, it's mostly this 3% lower overall win-rate in Korean Individual Leagues, despite having the more impressive record in terms of Top4+ appearences in those leagues when compared to TY:
TY's consistent strength is also apparent in his overall win-loss record in Korean Individual Leagues. From the start of LotV up until his military service, he was neck-and-neck with Maru in terms of having the best statistics. TY's map win-rate of 64.9% (170W-92L) was slightly head of Maru's 63.8% (166W-94L), while his series win-rate of 69.8% (60W-26L) was second only to Maru's 73.2% (60W-22). When it comes to Dark, Stats, and Rogue, the other top players during this time frame, their win-rates all trail slightly or considerably behind TY.
We should note however, that even by that math, the match win rate (which I'd argue is more important than map win rate) is even closer.
Heck, LOOK at that consistency from Dark, the only one on that chart to qualify for every listed event in that table!
To me, there's just something not-correct about puttin Rain above Dark for the top 10, given the criteria we know about. When we look at weekenders, this becomes even more apparent, but I won't belabor that point as they're weighted lightly by the criteria we know about.
Great post and we agree on the consistency. Dark is one of the most consistent players in history (which i will go into in length during the blog).
The rain thing is a pretty easy argument for me as he was a top 3 player in hots when it came to KIL. Ignore soO and ByuL for a moment since they are a combined 0-7 in KIL finals during hots. Rain and Inno were the only players to reach 3 KIL finals in hots and no one won more than Rain (two wins).
I understand a lot of people feel differently, but if all you do is count trophies then there's no reason for a list. You just do some 1+1 basic math and there you go. The Protoss Rain played in 2013 was the best we had seen up to that point (many people try to point out how trash everyone was and how they could go back and win gsl, but I think a player deserves great credit for playing at a never before seen level. Rain was also one match from being a double royal roader (though he would have had to play life in the final), but he was also one match away from making a second final opposite ByuL in 2015). It's funny how so much hinges on so few games. I didn't entertain hypotheticals in the article
Zest had a big part in overhauling Protoss in 2014 and it's fair to say he surpassed Rain as far as peak Protoss at that point. I personally prefer 2015 Rain to 2013 Rain as I think he was a far more well rounded player and I think he raised the level again.
In the end, you could argue Rain benefitted from retirement. Unlike soO, zest, inno, dark, classic, herO, rogue etc, Rain never had a long stretch of being sub par. He was a top tier from start to finish (barring a few months in 2014) and that's a very difficult thing to accomplish.
If Rain had generated those numbers in a career as long as Maru's, I wouldn';t think much of him at all. In fact, if your primary determiner of GOAT ness is trophies and final appearances, players like Cure and Solar should be ahead of a number of players who most people would consider much better than either of them, but didn't play for 11 years and didn't have as much time to build a nice trophy collection.
Just clicked through a few of Dark's matchups vs top pros on Aligulac, match winrates: he's 68% vs Stats, 34% vs herO, and very close to 50% vs trap/zest. He's 50% vs Maru & Byun, 57% vs inno, 72% vs TY (as pointed out), the four horsemen. He's 56% vs soo&solar, 46% vs rogue.
So it looks like he's pretty close to 50/50 in ZvP and ZvZ against the top Koreans, and he has winning records vs the top KR Terrans. Clearly among the best, but if you throw in the finals winrates... it's a bit hard to call Dark dominant beyond just "consistent"
I guess the arguments for soO and Rain over Dark are their consistency and by-eye strength at their peaks (I think Dark's play rarely *looks* like the best in the world, even when he's playing like it, since his play is just so messy and crafty), while the arguments for TY and sOs are their legendary peak winrates in a harder era of SC2. I wouldn't agree for my personal list, but I can see the arguments.
Edit: Miz, I see you'll about it more in the blog post, so I'll let it be! I definitely agree that Dark is incredibly consistent while managing to pull some of the most miraculous single maps out, and I'll be 100% looking forward to the blog post. I guess the rest of 11-15 must be Stats, Reynor... byun? gumiho? MC/nestea? Solar? Excited to read it. And above all 100% respect the methodology and the research!
On February 21 2024 06:15 TheDougler wrote: First of all Miz, excellent work. Your writing is so fun to read as always.
The quasi-confirmation that Dark didn't make the top 10 really surpised me though. Let's look at the comparison to Rain, specifically.
Notable tournament finishes (Rain): 2012 WCS Asia: 1st place 2012 OnGameNet Starleague: 1st place 2013 OnGameNet Starleague: 2nd place 2013 GSL Hot6ix Cup: 1st place 2015 IEM San Jose: 2nd place 2015 Code S Season 2: 1st place 2015 HomeStory Cup 11: 1st place
Notable Tournament Finishes (Dark): 2016 Code S Season 1: 1st Place 2016 WCS Korea: 1st Place 2016 WCS Global Championships: 2nd Place 2019 GSL Code S Season 2: 1st Place 2019 GSL AfreecaTV Super Tournament 2: 1st Place 2019 WCS Global Finals: 1st Place 2020 Teamliquid StarLeague 6: 1st Place 2021 GSL Season 2: 1st Place 2022 GSL Afreeka TV Super Tournament 1: 2nd Place 2023 GSL Code S Season 2: 2nd Place
There's plenty of other tournaments, including premier tournaments that Dark placed in the top 4 of that I haven't even mentioned above.
I simply cannot see a logic behind including Rain but not him. Heck, I'm not sure that TY even deserves his spot above Dark. Let's look at the justification of that:
The Placement
TY and #10 player Rain are similar for their consistent, high-level play in Korean Individual Leagues, and their list of top-four finishes is very similar (TY: 2x first place, 2x second place, 2x RO4 finishes // Rain: 2x first place, 1x second place, 3x RO4).
However, TY gets the nod for ninth place by surpassing Rain in a couple of key areas. The biggest differentiating factor was TY's results in world championship-tier tournaments—TY won both IEM and WESG, while Rain's best result was top 3 at BWC/WCS 2012. Also, TY's stretch of consistently great domestic play lasted for five years, compared to Rain's three and a half. Overall, TY was the obvious choice to slot in right ahead of Rain.
Okay, so let's look at top four finishes in Korean Individual Leagues, and world championship tournaments. Fortunately, Miz already did the math for us:
Korean Individual Leagues: TY: 2x first place, 2x second place, 2x RO4 Rain: 2x first place, 1x second place, 3x RO4 Dark: 2x first place, 3x second place, 4x RO4.
So, equal number of first places, but more consistent finals and semi-finals appearances for Dark. Let's look at world championship events:
TY: 1st Place IEM 2017, 1st Place WESG 2017 Rain: 3rd Place BWC/WCS 2012 Dark: 1st Place WCS 2019, 2nd Place WCS Global Championships 2016
Here we see that the logic that places TY above Rain unquestionably puts Dark above Rain as well. So, what gives?
Could it be that Dark's winrate against fellow S-tier competition is much poorer (which I don't have the statistics for, but feel like could certainly be the case)?
I don't think it's that either, as Miz notes Dark's impressive win-rate against TY:
From what I can read from the TY article, it's mostly this 3% lower overall win-rate in Korean Individual Leagues, despite having the more impressive record in terms of Top4+ appearences in those leagues when compared to TY:
TY's consistent strength is also apparent in his overall win-loss record in Korean Individual Leagues. From the start of LotV up until his military service, he was neck-and-neck with Maru in terms of having the best statistics. TY's map win-rate of 64.9% (170W-92L) was slightly head of Maru's 63.8% (166W-94L), while his series win-rate of 69.8% (60W-26L) was second only to Maru's 73.2% (60W-22). When it comes to Dark, Stats, and Rogue, the other top players during this time frame, their win-rates all trail slightly or considerably behind TY.
We should note however, that even by that math, the match win rate (which I'd argue is more important than map win rate) is even closer.
Heck, LOOK at that consistency from Dark, the only one on that chart to qualify for every listed event in that table!
To me, there's just something not-correct about puttin Rain above Dark for the top 10, given the criteria we know about. When we look at weekenders, this becomes even more apparent, but I won't belabor that point as they're weighted lightly by the criteria we know about.
Yeah, it's super strange. I'm waiting to see Miz's full explanation, but assuming there's no twist to the final spots (i.e. a tie with 4 players in the top 3), I can't even figure out a possible rationale for keeping Dark off the list. Personally, I don't feel like any of the stats used in the articles, such as particular winrates over a narrowly defined set of time where the player hit a peak, are particularly meaningful in the face of the long term, consistent success. And by that metric, Dark smokes every single player in SC2 history besides Serral and Maru. I can see the argument for MVP having better peak dominance, Inno having more success in the most competitive years, and Rogue having more premier golds, so that comes down to preference to whoever is making the list and what they personally weigh more heavily. But when players are on the list for having careers that are essentially just Dark's but worse, I take issue with that.
Dark got very lucky being younger than most players. He's a very good player, but if he's born three years earlier (that would make him as old as soO) Dark retires for military somewhere in 2019-2020 and would have a far worse resume.
Look at the single-handed impact of Mvp in getting ghost snipe nerfed into oblivion. No other player can boast a massive balance change based only on their performance.
On February 21 2024 09:02 Pentarp wrote: Why are we only looking at tournament results?
Look at the single-handed impact of Mvp in getting ghost snipe nerfed into oblivion. No other player can boast a massive balance change based only on their performance.
ByuN being a reaper patch terran caused some big nerfs and Scarlett got that disgusting unbeatable elevator ling build nerfed as well. I'd say both of those were more obnoxious as Mvp is way better than either.
On February 21 2024 06:15 TheDougler wrote: First of all Miz, excellent work. Your writing is so fun to read as always.
The quasi-confirmation that Dark didn't make the top 10 really surpised me though. Let's look at the comparison to Rain, specifically.
Notable tournament finishes (Rain): 2012 WCS Asia: 1st place 2012 OnGameNet Starleague: 1st place 2013 OnGameNet Starleague: 2nd place 2013 GSL Hot6ix Cup: 1st place 2015 IEM San Jose: 2nd place 2015 Code S Season 2: 1st place 2015 HomeStory Cup 11: 1st place
Notable Tournament Finishes (Dark): 2016 Code S Season 1: 1st Place 2016 WCS Korea: 1st Place 2016 WCS Global Championships: 2nd Place 2019 GSL Code S Season 2: 1st Place 2019 GSL AfreecaTV Super Tournament 2: 1st Place 2019 WCS Global Finals: 1st Place 2020 Teamliquid StarLeague 6: 1st Place 2021 GSL Season 2: 1st Place 2022 GSL Afreeka TV Super Tournament 1: 2nd Place 2023 GSL Code S Season 2: 2nd Place
There's plenty of other tournaments, including premier tournaments that Dark placed in the top 4 of that I haven't even mentioned above.
I simply cannot see a logic behind including Rain but not him. Heck, I'm not sure that TY even deserves his spot above Dark. Let's look at the justification of that:
The Placement
TY and #10 player Rain are similar for their consistent, high-level play in Korean Individual Leagues, and their list of top-four finishes is very similar (TY: 2x first place, 2x second place, 2x RO4 finishes // Rain: 2x first place, 1x second place, 3x RO4).
However, TY gets the nod for ninth place by surpassing Rain in a couple of key areas. The biggest differentiating factor was TY's results in world championship-tier tournaments—TY won both IEM and WESG, while Rain's best result was top 3 at BWC/WCS 2012. Also, TY's stretch of consistently great domestic play lasted for five years, compared to Rain's three and a half. Overall, TY was the obvious choice to slot in right ahead of Rain.
Okay, so let's look at top four finishes in Korean Individual Leagues, and world championship tournaments. Fortunately, Miz already did the math for us:
Korean Individual Leagues: TY: 2x first place, 2x second place, 2x RO4 Rain: 2x first place, 1x second place, 3x RO4 Dark: 2x first place, 3x second place, 4x RO4.
So, equal number of first places, but more consistent finals and semi-finals appearances for Dark. Let's look at world championship events:
TY: 1st Place IEM 2017, 1st Place WESG 2017 Rain: 3rd Place BWC/WCS 2012 Dark: 1st Place WCS 2019, 2nd Place WCS Global Championships 2016
Here we see that the logic that places TY above Rain unquestionably puts Dark above Rain as well. So, what gives?
Could it be that Dark's winrate against fellow S-tier competition is much poorer (which I don't have the statistics for, but feel like could certainly be the case)?
I don't think it's that either, as Miz notes Dark's impressive win-rate against TY:
From what I can read from the TY article, it's mostly this 3% lower overall win-rate in Korean Individual Leagues, despite having the more impressive record in terms of Top4+ appearences in those leagues when compared to TY:
TY's consistent strength is also apparent in his overall win-loss record in Korean Individual Leagues. From the start of LotV up until his military service, he was neck-and-neck with Maru in terms of having the best statistics. TY's map win-rate of 64.9% (170W-92L) was slightly head of Maru's 63.8% (166W-94L), while his series win-rate of 69.8% (60W-26L) was second only to Maru's 73.2% (60W-22). When it comes to Dark, Stats, and Rogue, the other top players during this time frame, their win-rates all trail slightly or considerably behind TY.
We should note however, that even by that math, the match win rate (which I'd argue is more important than map win rate) is even closer.
Heck, LOOK at that consistency from Dark, the only one on that chart to qualify for every listed event in that table!
To me, there's just something not-correct about puttin Rain above Dark for the top 10, given the criteria we know about. When we look at weekenders, this becomes even more apparent, but I won't belabor that point as they're weighted lightly by the criteria we know about.
Yeah, it's super strange. I'm waiting to see Miz's full explanation, but assuming there's no twist to the final spots (i.e. a tie with 4 players in the top 3), I can't even figure out a possible rationale for keeping Dark off the list. Personally, I don't feel like any of the stats used in the articles, such as particular winrates over a narrowly defined set of time where the player hit a peak, are particularly meaningful in the face of the long term, consistent success. And by that metric, Dark smokes every single player in SC2 history besides Serral and Maru. I can see the argument for MVP having better peak dominance, Inno having more success in the most competitive years, and Rogue having more premier golds, so that comes down to preference to whoever is making the list and what they personally weigh more heavily. But when players are on the list for having careers that are essentially just Dark's but worse, I take issue with that.
Dark got very lucky being younger than most players. He's a very good player, but if he's born three years earlier he retires for military somewhere in 2019-2020 and would have a far worse resume.
So? Is he being penalized for a hypothetical that didn't happen? Because we could play that game with anyone. Serral is a very good player, but if he's born fifty years earlier he would have a far worse SC2 resume. If Maru were born blind he'd have a far worse SC2 resume too.
On February 21 2024 06:15 TheDougler wrote: First of all Miz, excellent work. Your writing is so fun to read as always.
The quasi-confirmation that Dark didn't make the top 10 really surpised me though. Let's look at the comparison to Rain, specifically.
Notable tournament finishes (Rain): 2012 WCS Asia: 1st place 2012 OnGameNet Starleague: 1st place 2013 OnGameNet Starleague: 2nd place 2013 GSL Hot6ix Cup: 1st place 2015 IEM San Jose: 2nd place 2015 Code S Season 2: 1st place 2015 HomeStory Cup 11: 1st place
Notable Tournament Finishes (Dark): 2016 Code S Season 1: 1st Place 2016 WCS Korea: 1st Place 2016 WCS Global Championships: 2nd Place 2019 GSL Code S Season 2: 1st Place 2019 GSL AfreecaTV Super Tournament 2: 1st Place 2019 WCS Global Finals: 1st Place 2020 Teamliquid StarLeague 6: 1st Place 2021 GSL Season 2: 1st Place 2022 GSL Afreeka TV Super Tournament 1: 2nd Place 2023 GSL Code S Season 2: 2nd Place
There's plenty of other tournaments, including premier tournaments that Dark placed in the top 4 of that I haven't even mentioned above.
I simply cannot see a logic behind including Rain but not him. Heck, I'm not sure that TY even deserves his spot above Dark. Let's look at the justification of that:
The Placement
TY and #10 player Rain are similar for their consistent, high-level play in Korean Individual Leagues, and their list of top-four finishes is very similar (TY: 2x first place, 2x second place, 2x RO4 finishes // Rain: 2x first place, 1x second place, 3x RO4).
However, TY gets the nod for ninth place by surpassing Rain in a couple of key areas. The biggest differentiating factor was TY's results in world championship-tier tournaments—TY won both IEM and WESG, while Rain's best result was top 3 at BWC/WCS 2012. Also, TY's stretch of consistently great domestic play lasted for five years, compared to Rain's three and a half. Overall, TY was the obvious choice to slot in right ahead of Rain.
Okay, so let's look at top four finishes in Korean Individual Leagues, and world championship tournaments. Fortunately, Miz already did the math for us:
Korean Individual Leagues: TY: 2x first place, 2x second place, 2x RO4 Rain: 2x first place, 1x second place, 3x RO4 Dark: 2x first place, 3x second place, 4x RO4.
So, equal number of first places, but more consistent finals and semi-finals appearances for Dark. Let's look at world championship events:
TY: 1st Place IEM 2017, 1st Place WESG 2017 Rain: 3rd Place BWC/WCS 2012 Dark: 1st Place WCS 2019, 2nd Place WCS Global Championships 2016
Here we see that the logic that places TY above Rain unquestionably puts Dark above Rain as well. So, what gives?
Could it be that Dark's winrate against fellow S-tier competition is much poorer (which I don't have the statistics for, but feel like could certainly be the case)?
I don't think it's that either, as Miz notes Dark's impressive win-rate against TY:
From what I can read from the TY article, it's mostly this 3% lower overall win-rate in Korean Individual Leagues, despite having the more impressive record in terms of Top4+ appearences in those leagues when compared to TY:
TY's consistent strength is also apparent in his overall win-loss record in Korean Individual Leagues. From the start of LotV up until his military service, he was neck-and-neck with Maru in terms of having the best statistics. TY's map win-rate of 64.9% (170W-92L) was slightly head of Maru's 63.8% (166W-94L), while his series win-rate of 69.8% (60W-26L) was second only to Maru's 73.2% (60W-22). When it comes to Dark, Stats, and Rogue, the other top players during this time frame, their win-rates all trail slightly or considerably behind TY.
We should note however, that even by that math, the match win rate (which I'd argue is more important than map win rate) is even closer.
Heck, LOOK at that consistency from Dark, the only one on that chart to qualify for every listed event in that table!
To me, there's just something not-correct about puttin Rain above Dark for the top 10, given the criteria we know about. When we look at weekenders, this becomes even more apparent, but I won't belabor that point as they're weighted lightly by the criteria we know about.
Yeah, it's super strange. I'm waiting to see Miz's full explanation, but assuming there's no twist to the final spots (i.e. a tie with 4 players in the top 3), I can't even figure out a possible rationale for keeping Dark off the list. Personally, I don't feel like any of the stats used in the articles, such as particular winrates over a narrowly defined set of time where the player hit a peak, are particularly meaningful in the face of the long term, consistent success. And by that metric, Dark smokes every single player in SC2 history besides Serral and Maru. I can see the argument for MVP having better peak dominance, Inno having more success in the most competitive years, and Rogue having more premier golds, so that comes down to preference to whoever is making the list and what they personally weigh more heavily. But when players are on the list for having careers that are essentially just Dark's but worse, I take issue with that.
Dark got very lucky being younger than most players. He's a very good player, but if he's born three years earlier he retires for military somewhere in 2019-2020 and would have a far worse resume.
So? Is he being penalized for a hypothetical that didn't happen? Because we could play that game with anyone. Serral is a very good player, but if he's born fifty years earlier he would have a far worse SC2 resume. If Maru were born blind he'd have a far worse SC2 resume too.
No, of course not. I just enjoy the infinite sliding doors moments that occur in sports. I truly delight in these things.
On February 21 2024 06:15 TheDougler wrote: First of all Miz, excellent work. Your writing is so fun to read as always.
The quasi-confirmation that Dark didn't make the top 10 really surpised me though. Let's look at the comparison to Rain, specifically.
Notable tournament finishes (Rain): 2012 WCS Asia: 1st place 2012 OnGameNet Starleague: 1st place 2013 OnGameNet Starleague: 2nd place 2013 GSL Hot6ix Cup: 1st place 2015 IEM San Jose: 2nd place 2015 Code S Season 2: 1st place 2015 HomeStory Cup 11: 1st place
Notable Tournament Finishes (Dark): 2016 Code S Season 1: 1st Place 2016 WCS Korea: 1st Place 2016 WCS Global Championships: 2nd Place 2019 GSL Code S Season 2: 1st Place 2019 GSL AfreecaTV Super Tournament 2: 1st Place 2019 WCS Global Finals: 1st Place 2020 Teamliquid StarLeague 6: 1st Place 2021 GSL Season 2: 1st Place 2022 GSL Afreeka TV Super Tournament 1: 2nd Place 2023 GSL Code S Season 2: 2nd Place
There's plenty of other tournaments, including premier tournaments that Dark placed in the top 4 of that I haven't even mentioned above.
I simply cannot see a logic behind including Rain but not him. Heck, I'm not sure that TY even deserves his spot above Dark. Let's look at the justification of that:
The Placement
TY and #10 player Rain are similar for their consistent, high-level play in Korean Individual Leagues, and their list of top-four finishes is very similar (TY: 2x first place, 2x second place, 2x RO4 finishes // Rain: 2x first place, 1x second place, 3x RO4).
However, TY gets the nod for ninth place by surpassing Rain in a couple of key areas. The biggest differentiating factor was TY's results in world championship-tier tournaments—TY won both IEM and WESG, while Rain's best result was top 3 at BWC/WCS 2012. Also, TY's stretch of consistently great domestic play lasted for five years, compared to Rain's three and a half. Overall, TY was the obvious choice to slot in right ahead of Rain.
Okay, so let's look at top four finishes in Korean Individual Leagues, and world championship tournaments. Fortunately, Miz already did the math for us:
Korean Individual Leagues: TY: 2x first place, 2x second place, 2x RO4 Rain: 2x first place, 1x second place, 3x RO4 Dark: 2x first place, 3x second place, 4x RO4.
So, equal number of first places, but more consistent finals and semi-finals appearances for Dark. Let's look at world championship events:
TY: 1st Place IEM 2017, 1st Place WESG 2017 Rain: 3rd Place BWC/WCS 2012 Dark: 1st Place WCS 2019, 2nd Place WCS Global Championships 2016
Here we see that the logic that places TY above Rain unquestionably puts Dark above Rain as well. So, what gives?
Could it be that Dark's winrate against fellow S-tier competition is much poorer (which I don't have the statistics for, but feel like could certainly be the case)?
I don't think it's that either, as Miz notes Dark's impressive win-rate against TY:
From what I can read from the TY article, it's mostly this 3% lower overall win-rate in Korean Individual Leagues, despite having the more impressive record in terms of Top4+ appearences in those leagues when compared to TY:
TY's consistent strength is also apparent in his overall win-loss record in Korean Individual Leagues. From the start of LotV up until his military service, he was neck-and-neck with Maru in terms of having the best statistics. TY's map win-rate of 64.9% (170W-92L) was slightly head of Maru's 63.8% (166W-94L), while his series win-rate of 69.8% (60W-26L) was second only to Maru's 73.2% (60W-22). When it comes to Dark, Stats, and Rogue, the other top players during this time frame, their win-rates all trail slightly or considerably behind TY.
We should note however, that even by that math, the match win rate (which I'd argue is more important than map win rate) is even closer.
Heck, LOOK at that consistency from Dark, the only one on that chart to qualify for every listed event in that table!
To me, there's just something not-correct about puttin Rain above Dark for the top 10, given the criteria we know about. When we look at weekenders, this becomes even more apparent, but I won't belabor that point as they're weighted lightly by the criteria we know about.
Yeah, it's super strange. I'm waiting to see Miz's full explanation, but assuming there's no twist to the final spots (i.e. a tie with 4 players in the top 3), I can't even figure out a possible rationale for keeping Dark off the list. Personally, I don't feel like any of the stats used in the articles, such as particular winrates over a narrowly defined set of time where the player hit a peak, are particularly meaningful in the face of the long term, consistent success. And by that metric, Dark smokes every single player in SC2 history besides Serral and Maru. I can see the argument for MVP having better peak dominance, Inno having more success in the most competitive years, and Rogue having more premier golds, so that comes down to preference to whoever is making the list and what they personally weigh more heavily. But when players are on the list for having careers that are essentially just Dark's but worse, I take issue with that.
Dark got very lucky being younger than most players. He's a very good player, but if he's born three years earlier he retires for military somewhere in 2019-2020 and would have a far worse resume.
So? Is he being penalized for a hypothetical that didn't happen? Because we could play that game with anyone. Serral is a very good player, but if he's born fifty years earlier he would have a far worse SC2 resume. If Maru were born blind he'd have a far worse SC2 resume too.
No, of course not. I just enjoy the infinite sliding doors moments that occur in sports. I truly delight in these things.
On February 21 2024 06:15 TheDougler wrote: First of all Miz, excellent work. Your writing is so fun to read as always.
The quasi-confirmation that Dark didn't make the top 10 really surpised me though. Let's look at the comparison to Rain, specifically.
Notable tournament finishes (Rain): 2012 WCS Asia: 1st place 2012 OnGameNet Starleague: 1st place 2013 OnGameNet Starleague: 2nd place 2013 GSL Hot6ix Cup: 1st place 2015 IEM San Jose: 2nd place 2015 Code S Season 2: 1st place 2015 HomeStory Cup 11: 1st place
Notable Tournament Finishes (Dark): 2016 Code S Season 1: 1st Place 2016 WCS Korea: 1st Place 2016 WCS Global Championships: 2nd Place 2019 GSL Code S Season 2: 1st Place 2019 GSL AfreecaTV Super Tournament 2: 1st Place 2019 WCS Global Finals: 1st Place 2020 Teamliquid StarLeague 6: 1st Place 2021 GSL Season 2: 1st Place 2022 GSL Afreeka TV Super Tournament 1: 2nd Place 2023 GSL Code S Season 2: 2nd Place
There's plenty of other tournaments, including premier tournaments that Dark placed in the top 4 of that I haven't even mentioned above.
I simply cannot see a logic behind including Rain but not him. Heck, I'm not sure that TY even deserves his spot above Dark. Let's look at the justification of that:
The Placement
TY and #10 player Rain are similar for their consistent, high-level play in Korean Individual Leagues, and their list of top-four finishes is very similar (TY: 2x first place, 2x second place, 2x RO4 finishes // Rain: 2x first place, 1x second place, 3x RO4).
However, TY gets the nod for ninth place by surpassing Rain in a couple of key areas. The biggest differentiating factor was TY's results in world championship-tier tournaments—TY won both IEM and WESG, while Rain's best result was top 3 at BWC/WCS 2012. Also, TY's stretch of consistently great domestic play lasted for five years, compared to Rain's three and a half. Overall, TY was the obvious choice to slot in right ahead of Rain.
Okay, so let's look at top four finishes in Korean Individual Leagues, and world championship tournaments. Fortunately, Miz already did the math for us:
Korean Individual Leagues: TY: 2x first place, 2x second place, 2x RO4 Rain: 2x first place, 1x second place, 3x RO4 Dark: 2x first place, 3x second place, 4x RO4.
So, equal number of first places, but more consistent finals and semi-finals appearances for Dark. Let's look at world championship events:
TY: 1st Place IEM 2017, 1st Place WESG 2017 Rain: 3rd Place BWC/WCS 2012 Dark: 1st Place WCS 2019, 2nd Place WCS Global Championships 2016
Here we see that the logic that places TY above Rain unquestionably puts Dark above Rain as well. So, what gives?
Could it be that Dark's winrate against fellow S-tier competition is much poorer (which I don't have the statistics for, but feel like could certainly be the case)?
I don't think it's that either, as Miz notes Dark's impressive win-rate against TY:
From what I can read from the TY article, it's mostly this 3% lower overall win-rate in Korean Individual Leagues, despite having the more impressive record in terms of Top4+ appearences in those leagues when compared to TY:
TY's consistent strength is also apparent in his overall win-loss record in Korean Individual Leagues. From the start of LotV up until his military service, he was neck-and-neck with Maru in terms of having the best statistics. TY's map win-rate of 64.9% (170W-92L) was slightly head of Maru's 63.8% (166W-94L), while his series win-rate of 69.8% (60W-26L) was second only to Maru's 73.2% (60W-22). When it comes to Dark, Stats, and Rogue, the other top players during this time frame, their win-rates all trail slightly or considerably behind TY.
We should note however, that even by that math, the match win rate (which I'd argue is more important than map win rate) is even closer.
Heck, LOOK at that consistency from Dark, the only one on that chart to qualify for every listed event in that table!
To me, there's just something not-correct about puttin Rain above Dark for the top 10, given the criteria we know about. When we look at weekenders, this becomes even more apparent, but I won't belabor that point as they're weighted lightly by the criteria we know about.
Yeah, it's super strange. I'm waiting to see Miz's full explanation, but assuming there's no twist to the final spots (i.e. a tie with 4 players in the top 3), I can't even figure out a possible rationale for keeping Dark off the list. Personally, I don't feel like any of the stats used in the articles, such as particular winrates over a narrowly defined set of time where the player hit a peak, are particularly meaningful in the face of the long term, consistent success. And by that metric, Dark smokes every single player in SC2 history besides Serral and Maru. I can see the argument for MVP having better peak dominance, Inno having more success in the most competitive years, and Rogue having more premier golds, so that comes down to preference to whoever is making the list and what they personally weigh more heavily. But when players are on the list for having careers that are essentially just Dark's but worse, I take issue with that.
Dark got very lucky being younger than most players. He's a very good player, but if he's born three years earlier he retires for military somewhere in 2019-2020 and would have a far worse resume.
So? Is he being penalized for a hypothetical that didn't happen? Because we could play that game with anyone. Serral is a very good player, but if he's born fifty years earlier he would have a far worse SC2 resume. If Maru were born blind he'd have a far worse SC2 resume too.
No, of course not. I just enjoy the infinite sliding doors moments that occur in sports. I truly delight in these things.
Fair enough
I always wonder about what random part I might have played in soO winning Katowice 2019. I had helped him with some transportation stuff the prior year (at a point Korea starts issuing one year passports to those who haven't yet done military to make it even harder for you to travel), but he lost before the group stage. If he doesn't go in 2018, does he drop early in 2019? Or did going once start some cosmic chain of events that culminated the following year? Who knows?!?!
On February 21 2024 06:15 TheDougler wrote: First of all Miz, excellent work. Your writing is so fun to read as always.
The quasi-confirmation that Dark didn't make the top 10 really surpised me though. Let's look at the comparison to Rain, specifically.
Notable tournament finishes (Rain): 2012 WCS Asia: 1st place 2012 OnGameNet Starleague: 1st place 2013 OnGameNet Starleague: 2nd place 2013 GSL Hot6ix Cup: 1st place 2015 IEM San Jose: 2nd place 2015 Code S Season 2: 1st place 2015 HomeStory Cup 11: 1st place
Notable Tournament Finishes (Dark): 2016 Code S Season 1: 1st Place 2016 WCS Korea: 1st Place 2016 WCS Global Championships: 2nd Place 2019 GSL Code S Season 2: 1st Place 2019 GSL AfreecaTV Super Tournament 2: 1st Place 2019 WCS Global Finals: 1st Place 2020 Teamliquid StarLeague 6: 1st Place 2021 GSL Season 2: 1st Place 2022 GSL Afreeka TV Super Tournament 1: 2nd Place 2023 GSL Code S Season 2: 2nd Place
There's plenty of other tournaments, including premier tournaments that Dark placed in the top 4 of that I haven't even mentioned above.
I simply cannot see a logic behind including Rain but not him. Heck, I'm not sure that TY even deserves his spot above Dark. Let's look at the justification of that:
The Placement
TY and #10 player Rain are similar for their consistent, high-level play in Korean Individual Leagues, and their list of top-four finishes is very similar (TY: 2x first place, 2x second place, 2x RO4 finishes // Rain: 2x first place, 1x second place, 3x RO4).
However, TY gets the nod for ninth place by surpassing Rain in a couple of key areas. The biggest differentiating factor was TY's results in world championship-tier tournaments—TY won both IEM and WESG, while Rain's best result was top 3 at BWC/WCS 2012. Also, TY's stretch of consistently great domestic play lasted for five years, compared to Rain's three and a half. Overall, TY was the obvious choice to slot in right ahead of Rain.
Okay, so let's look at top four finishes in Korean Individual Leagues, and world championship tournaments. Fortunately, Miz already did the math for us:
Korean Individual Leagues: TY: 2x first place, 2x second place, 2x RO4 Rain: 2x first place, 1x second place, 3x RO4 Dark: 2x first place, 3x second place, 4x RO4.
So, equal number of first places, but more consistent finals and semi-finals appearances for Dark. Let's look at world championship events:
TY: 1st Place IEM 2017, 1st Place WESG 2017 Rain: 3rd Place BWC/WCS 2012 Dark: 1st Place WCS 2019, 2nd Place WCS Global Championships 2016
Here we see that the logic that places TY above Rain unquestionably puts Dark above Rain as well. So, what gives?
Could it be that Dark's winrate against fellow S-tier competition is much poorer (which I don't have the statistics for, but feel like could certainly be the case)?
I don't think it's that either, as Miz notes Dark's impressive win-rate against TY:
From what I can read from the TY article, it's mostly this 3% lower overall win-rate in Korean Individual Leagues, despite having the more impressive record in terms of Top4+ appearences in those leagues when compared to TY:
TY's consistent strength is also apparent in his overall win-loss record in Korean Individual Leagues. From the start of LotV up until his military service, he was neck-and-neck with Maru in terms of having the best statistics. TY's map win-rate of 64.9% (170W-92L) was slightly head of Maru's 63.8% (166W-94L), while his series win-rate of 69.8% (60W-26L) was second only to Maru's 73.2% (60W-22). When it comes to Dark, Stats, and Rogue, the other top players during this time frame, their win-rates all trail slightly or considerably behind TY.
We should note however, that even by that math, the match win rate (which I'd argue is more important than map win rate) is even closer.
Heck, LOOK at that consistency from Dark, the only one on that chart to qualify for every listed event in that table!
To me, there's just something not-correct about puttin Rain above Dark for the top 10, given the criteria we know about. When we look at weekenders, this becomes even more apparent, but I won't belabor that point as they're weighted lightly by the criteria we know about.
Yeah, it's super strange. I'm waiting to see Miz's full explanation, but assuming there's no twist to the final spots (i.e. a tie with 4 players in the top 3), I can't even figure out a possible rationale for keeping Dark off the list. Personally, I don't feel like any of the stats used in the articles, such as particular winrates over a narrowly defined set of time where the player hit a peak, are particularly meaningful in the face of the long term, consistent success. And by that metric, Dark smokes every single player in SC2 history besides Serral and Maru. I can see the argument for MVP having better peak dominance, Inno having more success in the most competitive years, and Rogue having more premier golds, so that comes down to preference to whoever is making the list and what they personally weigh more heavily. But when players are on the list for having careers that are essentially just Dark's but worse, I take issue with that.
Dark got very lucky being younger than most players. He's a very good player, but if he's born three years earlier he retires for military somewhere in 2019-2020 and would have a far worse resume.
So? Is he being penalized for a hypothetical that didn't happen? Because we could play that game with anyone. Serral is a very good player, but if he's born fifty years earlier he would have a far worse SC2 resume. If Maru were born blind he'd have a far worse SC2 resume too.
No, of course not. I just enjoy the infinite sliding doors moments that occur in sports. I truly delight in these things.
Fair enough
I always wonder about what random part I might have played in soO winning Katowice 2019. I had helped him with some transportation stuff the prior year (at a point Korea starts issuing one year passports to those who haven't yet done military to make it even harder for you to travel), but he lost before the group stage. If he doesn't go in 2018, does he drop early in 2019? Or did going once start some cosmic chain of events that culminated the following year? Who knows?!?!
On February 20 2024 13:30 Nasigil wrote: Miz, I really appreciate your GOAT list write up, but I do find it a bit lacking in terms of the signature games listed in the end. In the old GOAT list in 2015 each player has like 20 games listed and you really could dive into them to get a grasp on how their play styles are like. This list just give you like 5 games, and often not even include some of their most iconic games.
Like how do you have an sOs article without listing his proxy Nexus against Bunny? Or Innovation's legendary WESG finals against Serral? Mvp one is okay tho. We need more games! Especially for whatever top 3 you are cooking up.
You're in luck! The next player will actually have a separate blog of games in addition to the article because I love them so much.
On February 21 2024 09:02 Pentarp wrote: Why are we only looking at tournament results?
Look at the single-handed impact of Mvp in getting ghost snipe nerfed into oblivion. No other player can boast a massive balance change based only on their performance.
There are actually several players that single-handedly got a unit nerfed. San with Khaydarin Amulet, Maru with liberators, ThorZaIN with thors, the entire SlayerS Terran line-up and blue flame hellions.
On February 20 2024 13:30 Nasigil wrote: Miz, I really appreciate your GOAT list write up, but I do find it a bit lacking in terms of the signature games listed in the end. In the old GOAT list in 2015 each player has like 20 games listed and you really could dive into them to get a grasp on how their play styles are like. This list just give you like 5 games, and often not even include some of their most iconic games.
Like how do you have an sOs article without listing his proxy Nexus against Bunny? Or Innovation's legendary WESG finals against Serral? Mvp one is okay tho. We need more games! Especially for whatever top 3 you are cooking up.
You're in luck! The next player will actually have a separate blog of games in addition to the article because I love them so much.
Maru solely got Ravens nerfed in early 2018. In 2 out of the 3 big premiers (GSL S1 and WESG) on the raven patch he was the only Terran in the ro8. In Katowice TY also made top 8 but him and Maru were the only Terrans in top 12. If you include the super tournament and WCS that took place on that patch there was also Special and Inno making a ro8 each.
It's pretty dumb that Terran got nerfed so hard despite objectively doing terrible on that patch besides Maru. And their compensation was 10 viking hp....
On February 21 2024 10:25 JJH777 wrote: Maru solely got Ravens nerfed in early 2018. In 2 out of the 3 big premiers (GSL S1 and WESG) on the raven patch he was the only Terran in the ro8. In Katowice TY also made top 8 but him and Maru were the only Terrans in top 12. If you include the super tournament and WCS that took place on that patch there was also Special and Inno making a ro8 each.
It's pretty dumb that Terran got nerfed so hard despite objectively doing terrible on that patch besides Maru. And their compensation was 10 viking hp....
Terran players were just not that great at that time
TY career is famous for whining and complaining about other races even when terran was overpowered
On February 21 2024 10:57 Fighter wrote: I wonder if Life is eligible for these lists or if he's too verboten.
Off-topic, but I'm always amazed that 'verboten' has made it into the international lexicon since in ordinary German there is nothing about its semantics which is particularly different from everyday English words like 'forbidden' or 'impermissible'.
Perhaps the language itself makes the word seem more schaurig.
On February 21 2024 10:57 Fighter wrote: I wonder if Life is eligible for these lists or if he's too verboten.
I think at the very least it would require a separate blog post or something to explain why he wouldn't be eligible if not, because by every metric of reasoning that the writer used to put MVP on the list, Life was just better, denying mvp the g5l is just the icing on the cake. In fact if im being 100% honest I feel its been only very recently that rogue/serral have finally caught up/surpassed lifes achievements nearly 10 years after his last game. For all the rioting about Dark, I still don't think hes surpassed life's resume even tho hes had a good 8 years to catch up in the dwindling scene, but ill let the stat nerds dig in and fact check that.
On February 21 2024 10:57 Fighter wrote: I wonder if Life is eligible for these lists or if he's too verboten.
I think at the very least it would require a separate blog post or something to explain why he wouldn't be eligible if not, because by every metric of reasoning that the writer used to put MVP on the list, Life was just better, denying mvp the g5l is just the icing on the cake. In fact if im being 100% honest I feel its been only very recently that rogue/serral have finally caught up/surpassed lifes achievements nearly 10 years after his last game. For all the rioting about Dark, I still don't think hes surpassed life's resume even tho hes had a good 8 years to catch up in the dwindling scene, but ill let the stat nerds dig in and fact check that.
It’s not about results, he’s banned from progaming for match fixing, I think it’s very reasonable to draw the line there when you make a goat list to celebrate the good things about an esport.
On February 20 2024 10:59 Mumei wrote: This is such a weird blind spot for me. I didn't watch this period of SC2 competitively at all and while I'd heard his name I had no idea that Mvp was as dominant as this in the early years or even that he was a major figure. I think I was still only paying attention to BW at this point. But it's a really specific blind spot because I recognized basically all the other names as being major early SC2 figures, just not The Guy.
Don't know how it happened anyway, but it did make this a nice history lesson for me.
The general conceit of the Mvp case is: You know he was good, but you forgot how good!
Exactly how I feel about Mvp. He didn't stand out in any particular aspect to me, all I remember was him beating everyone.
Mvp at #4? Crazy. Yes, I know that his carpal tunnel put a damper on his career and he retired as early as 2014. That he was the best player during the WOL-era.
But it was a time where the game was in its infancy and many powerhouses didn't start to play yet (hello KeSPA) or others were too young (Maru? Serral?) and yet had to develop as players. The era right after when the KeSPA players switched over and the the most glaring imbalances got patched up to early LotV was the most competitive time that Mvp sadly didn't play in much. Without his health issues I reckon he'd be a decent player but not Top 4. Given all that happened I'd put him near the 10th spot but definitely not 4th. Lookingat other comments it seems like I'm not the only one with this line of thinking. But hey what do I know?
Fun fact: I personally was super interested in not-so-succesful KeSPA-trained players like MC and Mvp and looked them up when they made the switch earlier than anyone else. I predicted that Mvp would become the best or one of the best players of early SC2 (that was still in 2010, mind you!) and I was right. He was the first legit A-team BW player that made the switch when he was still A-level. Others were long past their prime days (IntoTheRainbow/HopeTorture comes to mind).
I also thought that UpMaGiC would have done well but since the match-fixing scandal we all now this wasn't possible anymore (anyone remember the VOD that Artosis made of him playing in the beta or early release in a PC Bang vs Idra, shortly after he was banned? Artosis later deleted it to not anger the officials I guess).
i see 3 big issues in this list so far. firstly, there is a very strong argument to be made inno overtook mvp in 2017, why he ended up getting ranked higher in a list from 2024 when inno continued to play and perform for another 4 years before serving his military service i have no idea..
other questionable things in this list are obviously dark getting left out, and somehow rain sneaking in at #10. it could only get more questionable if serral somehow gets given the #1 spot, but at this point anything is possible
For years and years when taking about the Korean zerg scene it seems like Dark and Rogue were always mentioned in the same breath. Rogue shined brighter at his best but it seems wild that he'd be in the top 3 (he has to be, right?) while Dark doesn't even make the list. Definitely wanna read that blog when it comes out!
On February 21 2024 10:26 Woosixion wrote: Life > Mvp.
God I miss Life. He basically has the best shounen protagonist storyline (until he turned evil).
Royal roading GSL at age 15 by defeating a resurgent King of Wings Mvp in a 7-game grand final (villain foreshadowing?)
Collecting a triple crown in the next 3 months by winning MLG Dallas, Blizzard Cup, and Iron Squid 2.
Winning the first Kespa-participating HotS Premier tournament MLG winter championship by stopping the BW bonjwa Flash in the grand final.
Winning Blizzcon, IEM Taipei against an on-form Maru in a clutch grand final, and a GSL against an on-form PartinG in another clutch grand final during the "highest skill" era of 2014-2015.
And last but not least, making it to back-to-back grand final of Blizzcon in 2015 against a resurgent sOs but this time unclutchly losing 3-4 as karmic retribution for matchfixing (corruption arc where he lost the soul of esports). A very poetic beginning and end. (Btw he's only 18 at this point.)
But since this is real life, there's no redemption arc (unless ... ?)
On February 21 2024 08:58 Mizenhauer wrote:Dark got very lucky being younger than most players. He's a very good player, but if he's born three years earlier (that would make him as old as soO) Dark retires for military somewhere in 2019-2020 and would have a far worse resume.
that's...a weird argument? I mean, he wasn't born three years earlier. He has done what he's done. By the metric of irrelevant hypotheticals, what if all of MVP's brood war peers came over when he did, instead of 3 years later after he had peaked and declined?
many here dont understand how dominant he was and how important he was to the game, he changed the game for everone. he was so ahead of the rest of the players, he was so smart, he had so many builds, it was amazing seeing him play and dominate in the way he did.
he did it in the golden era of sc2. i will never forget those days.
It seems that the list favours players who were dominant at a particular time, or could be differentiated from their peers in some appreciable fashion. While Rain doesn't have the sheer numbers of other players, he was markedly different from other Protosses at the time, and had the wins to back it up. I love Dark and admire his consistency, but when I look at the overall methodology of the list, it makes sense why he's not there. He's been top 5 in the world for a long time, and often top 2 Korean zerg (behind either soO or Rogue), but he was never definitively the best.
Obviously no one is ever going to completely agree on a list like this, but I think Mizenhauer has brought an interesting perspective and methodology to the construction of the list, which feels consistent. I might disagree regarding how different eras are considered, but I can still appreciate where he's coming from. If I made a list, or if most commenters here made an individual list, it would probably drive even more people crazy than this one!!!
On February 21 2024 09:02 Pentarp wrote: Why are we only looking at tournament results?
Look at the single-handed impact of Mvp in getting ghost snipe nerfed into oblivion. No other player can boast a massive balance change based only on their performance.
To be honest ghost snipe + rapid fire hotkey tech that was made popular right around that time was not exactly some unknown secret available only to Mvp for execution (though i don't remember if Mvp actually used rapid fire, might explain the hand issues). But yeah, winning Blizzcon with it was sure a great hint for David Kim of the time to slap them down.
Reading all these posts make me convinced it is impossible to have a consensus goat in a game whom competition is not "standardized" for years. Someone spank ov 2010-2012 as the golden era of sc2 because of th it's popularity and gives prominence to players of that era, others speak of kespa era as the higher skill era and so high regard players of those years, others (like me) consider the more recent years the higher skill era because of continue game development. The problem is that in 14 years we had 3 very different iterations of the game, very different competition structure, very different prize poll distribution and so on. Any criteria meant to compare results from different eras of sc2 will necessarily be biased and will depend on the criteria of the writer. Mize has been very transparent with its criteria, they are reasonable in many ways, but probably we had to discuss more about them and less about the list entries if we really wanted a consensus list (I really think that we will have a consensus goat)
On February 21 2024 09:02 Pentarp wrote: Why are we only looking at tournament results?
Look at the single-handed impact of Mvp in getting ghost snipe nerfed into oblivion. No other player can boast a massive balance change based only on their performance.
To be honest ghost snipe + rapid fire hotkey tech that was made popular right around that time was not exactly some unknown secret available only to Mvp for execution (though i don't remember if Mvp actually used rapid fire, might explain the hand issues). But yeah, winning Blizzcon with it was sure a great hint for David Kim of the time to slap them down.
oblivion? its still getting nerfed 10+ years later, that just shows you how ridiculously broken the spell is lol
On February 21 2024 09:02 Pentarp wrote: Why are we only looking at tournament results?
Look at the single-handed impact of Mvp in getting ghost snipe nerfed into oblivion. No other player can boast a massive balance change based only on their performance.
To be honest ghost snipe + rapid fire hotkey tech that was made popular right around that time was not exactly some unknown secret available only to Mvp for execution (though i don't remember if Mvp actually used rapid fire, might explain the hand issues). But yeah, winning Blizzcon with it was sure a great hint for David Kim of the time to slap them down.
oblivion? its still getting nerfed 10+ years later, that just shows you how ridiculously broken the spell is lol
The spell doesn't exist anymore, it was replaced by steady targeting with LotV release
On February 21 2024 09:02 Pentarp wrote: Why are we only looking at tournament results?
Look at the single-handed impact of Mvp in getting ghost snipe nerfed into oblivion. No other player can boast a massive balance change based only on their performance.
ByuN being a reaper patch terran caused some big nerfs and Scarlett got that disgusting unbeatable elevator ling build nerfed as well. I'd say both of those were more obnoxious as Mvp is way better than either.
ByuN was able to beat Serral in epic macro games after coming back from the military, there is no world (even if mvp happened to be younger and didn't have health issues) in which Mvp would have been able to do the same on LotV in 2020. I mean I like mvp as much as any terran fan, and he might be higher than ByuN in a GOAT list, but in a best player of all time list, ByuN has reached highs mvp could not ever reach simply mechanically speaking.
On February 21 2024 09:02 Pentarp wrote: Why are we only looking at tournament results?
Look at the single-handed impact of Mvp in getting ghost snipe nerfed into oblivion. No other player can boast a massive balance change based only on their performance.
To be honest ghost snipe + rapid fire hotkey tech that was made popular right around that time was not exactly some unknown secret available only to Mvp for execution (though i don't remember if Mvp actually used rapid fire, might explain the hand issues). But yeah, winning Blizzcon with it was sure a great hint for David Kim of the time to slap them down.
oblivion? its still getting nerfed 10+ years later, that just shows you how ridiculously broken the spell is lol
It was nerfed into de facto oblivion right then. The LotV version is very, very different.
On February 21 2024 09:02 Pentarp wrote: Why are we only looking at tournament results?
Look at the single-handed impact of Mvp in getting ghost snipe nerfed into oblivion. No other player can boast a massive balance change based only on their performance.
To be honest ghost snipe + rapid fire hotkey tech that was made popular right around that time was not exactly some unknown secret available only to Mvp for execution (though i don't remember if Mvp actually used rapid fire, might explain the hand issues). But yeah, winning Blizzcon with it was sure a great hint for David Kim of the time to slap them down.
oblivion? its still getting nerfed 10+ years later, that just shows you how ridiculously broken the spell is lol
It was nerfed into de facto oblivion right then. The LotV version is very, very different.
fine, its a different version of the same spell.. but it still serves the same function. and they still saying its too strong being able to pewpew while cloaked even with the delay and all. What a nightmare that time was for zerg nestea really deserves more credit
On February 21 2024 19:36 Ronski wrote: Top 3 will be Dark, Rogue, Maru and TL forums will explode
Miz heavily hinted at Serral #1, only question left is if Rogue is #3 or #2, which we will know in the next article!
I can't see Maru or Serral requiring a full blog post for their games, but Rogue has so many wild strats, sniper builds and hilarious wins that I guess he's #3
I truly appreciate you doing this series Mizenhauer. I've thoroughly enjoyed reading through the series and the responses so far.
Dark is one of my favorite players but I can actually see why he wouldn't get top 10 on a greatest of all time list; he never really had that period of dominance that most other players on the list showed. If you had made a list of the best players of all time, I have no doubt that he would be there, however, a list like that is just not as interesting.
So far I think my biggest disagreement is that I would swap the spots of Mvp and Inno. The skeptic in me suggests that you ranked them as such to keep the discussion about whether Mvp or Dark would make the list going longer.
On February 21 2024 09:02 Pentarp wrote: Why are we only looking at tournament results?
Look at the single-handed impact of Mvp in getting ghost snipe nerfed into oblivion. No other player can boast a massive balance change based only on their performance.
ByuN being a reaper patch terran caused some big nerfs and Scarlett got that disgusting unbeatable elevator ling build nerfed as well. I'd say both of those were more obnoxious as Mvp is way better than either.
ByuN was able to beat Serral in epic macro games after coming back from the military, there is no world (even if mvp happened to be younger and didn't have health issues) in which Mvp would have been able to do the same on LotV in 2020. I mean I like mvp as much as any terran fan, and he might be higher than ByuN in a GOAT list, but in a best player of all time list, ByuN has reached highs mvp could not ever reach simply mechanically speaking.
Number of Premier events won by ByuN while reapers and 2/1/1 were way too good in 2016: 3
Number of Premier events won in the last eight years since reapers were nerfed: 0
On February 21 2024 09:02 Pentarp wrote: Why are we only looking at tournament results?
Look at the single-handed impact of Mvp in getting ghost snipe nerfed into oblivion. No other player can boast a massive balance change based only on their performance.
ByuN being a reaper patch terran caused some big nerfs and Scarlett got that disgusting unbeatable elevator ling build nerfed as well. I'd say both of those were more obnoxious as Mvp is way better than either.
ByuN was able to beat Serral in epic macro games after coming back from the military, there is no world (even if mvp happened to be younger and didn't have health issues) in which Mvp would have been able to do the same on LotV in 2020. I mean I like mvp as much as any terran fan, and he might be higher than ByuN in a GOAT list, but in a best player of all time list, ByuN has reached highs mvp could not ever reach simply mechanically speaking.
Number of Premier events won by ByuN while reapers and 2/1/1 were way too good in 2016: 3
Number of Premier events won in the last eight years since reapers were nerfed: 0
You can admit it and still like the guy.
I mean if we are taking such things into account as "reaper" and "2/1/1" we should discount every zerg victory since 2017 and the hydra buff then? Because at worst the race was "slightly" better than the rest, and at best "2019 zerg" level of broken Even TY's biggest victory at IEM Katowice is due to tank push being strong at the time, and his 2020 GSL victories were mostly off the back of good mirror. Since ByuN went to the military it's not surprising he had trouble winning another premier. herO managed to do it when protoss was pretty strong in combination with the weird map pool (see the games vs Maru with the gold base etc.), now that protoss is nerfed herO has an average placement in 2023/2024 at like 8+
On February 21 2024 09:02 Pentarp wrote: Why are we only looking at tournament results?
Look at the single-handed impact of Mvp in getting ghost snipe nerfed into oblivion. No other player can boast a massive balance change based only on their performance.
ByuN being a reaper patch terran caused some big nerfs and Scarlett got that disgusting unbeatable elevator ling build nerfed as well. I'd say both of those were more obnoxious as Mvp is way better than either.
ByuN was able to beat Serral in epic macro games after coming back from the military, there is no world (even if mvp happened to be younger and didn't have health issues) in which Mvp would have been able to do the same on LotV in 2020. I mean I like mvp as much as any terran fan, and he might be higher than ByuN in a GOAT list, but in a best player of all time list, ByuN has reached highs mvp could not ever reach simply mechanically speaking.
Number of Premier events won by ByuN while reapers and 2/1/1 were way too good in 2016: 3
Number of Premier events won in the last eight years since reapers were nerfed: 0
You can admit it and still like the guy.
I mean if we are taking such things into account as "reaper" and "2/1/1" we should discount every zerg victory since 2017 and the hydra buff then? Because at worst the race was "slightly" better than the rest, and at best "2019 zerg" level of broken Even TY's biggest victory at IEM Katowice is due to tank push being strong at the time, and his 2020 GSL victories were mostly off the back of good mirror. Since ByuN went to the military it's not surprising he had trouble winning another premier. herO managed to do it when protoss was pretty strong in combination with the weird map pool (see the games vs Maru with the gold base etc.), now that protoss is nerfed herO has an average placement in 2023/2024 at like 8+
You're comparing a four month stretch in 2017 to seven years of a race being overpowered?
On February 21 2024 10:26 Woosixion wrote: Life > Mvp.
God I miss Life. He basically has the best shounen protagonist storyline (until he turned evil).
Royal roading GSL at age 15 by defeating a resurgent King of Wings Mvp in a 7-game grand final (villain foreshadowing?)
Collecting a triple crown in the next 3 months by winning MLG Dallas, Blizzard Cup, and Iron Squid 2.
Winning the first Kespa-participating HotS Premier tournament MLG winter championship by stopping the BW bonjwa Flash in the grand final.
Winning Blizzcon, IEM Taipei against an on-form Maru in a clutch grand final, and a GSL against an on-form PartinG in another clutch grand final during the "highest skill" era of 2014-2015.
And last but not least, making it to back-to-back grand final of Blizzcon in 2015 against a resurgent sOs but this time unclutchly losing 3-4 as karmic retribution for matchfixing (corruption arc where he lost the soul of esports). A very poetic beginning and end. (Btw he's only 18 at this point.)
But since this is real life, there's no redemption arc (unless ... ?)
Not in Starcraft anyway. Ak it’s a real shame those folks trod that path, which let’s not forget caused a lot of wider damage to the scene
On February 21 2024 09:02 Pentarp wrote: Why are we only looking at tournament results?
Look at the single-handed impact of Mvp in getting ghost snipe nerfed into oblivion. No other player can boast a massive balance change based only on their performance.
ByuN being a reaper patch terran caused some big nerfs and Scarlett got that disgusting unbeatable elevator ling build nerfed as well. I'd say both of those were more obnoxious as Mvp is way better than either.
ByuN was able to beat Serral in epic macro games after coming back from the military, there is no world (even if mvp happened to be younger and didn't have health issues) in which Mvp would have been able to do the same on LotV in 2020. I mean I like mvp as much as any terran fan, and he might be higher than ByuN in a GOAT list, but in a best player of all time list, ByuN has reached highs mvp could not ever reach simply mechanically speaking.
Number of Premier events won by ByuN while reapers and 2/1/1 were way too good in 2016: 3
Number of Premier events won in the last eight years since reapers were nerfed: 0
You can admit it and still like the guy.
I mean if we are taking such things into account as "reaper" and "2/1/1" we should discount every zerg victory since 2017 and the hydra buff then? Because at worst the race was "slightly" better than the rest, and at best "2019 zerg" level of broken Even TY's biggest victory at IEM Katowice is due to tank push being strong at the time, and his 2020 GSL victories were mostly off the back of good mirror. Since ByuN went to the military it's not surprising he had trouble winning another premier. herO managed to do it when protoss was pretty strong in combination with the weird map pool (see the games vs Maru with the gold base etc.), now that protoss is nerfed herO has an average placement in 2023/2024 at like 8+
On February 21 2024 09:02 Pentarp wrote: Why are we only looking at tournament results?
Look at the single-handed impact of Mvp in getting ghost snipe nerfed into oblivion. No other player can boast a massive balance change based only on their performance.
ByuN being a reaper patch terran caused some big nerfs and Scarlett got that disgusting unbeatable elevator ling build nerfed as well. I'd say both of those were more obnoxious as Mvp is way better than either.
ByuN was able to beat Serral in epic macro games after coming back from the military, there is no world (even if mvp happened to be younger and didn't have health issues) in which Mvp would have been able to do the same on LotV in 2020. I mean I like mvp as much as any terran fan, and he might be higher than ByuN in a GOAT list, but in a best player of all time list, ByuN has reached highs mvp could not ever reach simply mechanically speaking.
Number of Premier events won by ByuN while reapers and 2/1/1 were way too good in 2016: 3
Number of Premier events won in the last eight years since reapers were nerfed: 0
You can admit it and still like the guy.
I was surprised the ASUS Rog he won wasn’t a Premier, it was stacked as,
Aye, does anyone not like Byun? But he’s pretty one-dimensional, just excellent in that dimension. Is it really different from the ‘patch Zergs’ that won big prizes and nobody ever, ever talks about?
Having insane micro only goes so far, other folks are a bit more rounded
The thing about ByuN is that despite sticking to one style, notably in TvT where he just plays marine / tank until he wins or lose the game, he is still a very difficult opponent. Even if that style is theoretically subpar, he can beat the likes of Cure, Maru or Clem with it because of his mastery. His TvZ is a bit weak relatively speaking, but his TvP is usually strong since his style remains the meta in that match-up
It's pretty unfortunate that he could not manage his health sufficiently enough to remain a top world player, but he is one of the most gifted players in sc2
@Wombat: yeah, the game on Cosmic Sapphire in particular Global StarCraft II League/2022/Season 2 was kinda ridiculous. Golds + enriched gas minerals won't ever be balanced in sc2 because of the difference in macro mechanics between the races, but mapmakers don't really care about balance so it's not surprising (cf. the HeroMarine / mapmakers drama from way back)
On February 21 2024 22:10 Poopi wrote: The thing about ByuN is that despite sticking to one style, notably in TvT where he just plays marine / tank until he wins or lose the game, he is still a very difficult opponent. Even if that style is theoretically subpar, he can beat the likes of Cure, Maru or Clem with it because of his mastery. His TvZ is a bit weak relatively speaking, but his TvP is usually strong since his style remains the meta in that match-up
It's pretty unfortunate that he could not manage his health sufficiently enough to remain a top world player, but he is one of the most gifted players in sc2
@Wombat: yeah, the game on Cosmic Sapphire in particular Global StarCraft II League/2022/Season 2 was kinda ridiculous. Golds + enriched gas minerals won't ever be balanced in sc2 because of the difference in macro mechanics between the races, but mapmakers don't really care about balance so it's not surprising (cf. the HeroMarine / mapmakers drama from way back)
This was the map that HeroMarine was so angry about...
On February 21 2024 22:10 Poopi wrote: The thing about ByuN is that despite sticking to one style, notably in TvT where he just plays marine / tank until he wins or lose the game, he is still a very difficult opponent. Even if that style is theoretically subpar, he can beat the likes of Cure, Maru or Clem with it because of his mastery. His TvZ is a bit weak relatively speaking, but his TvP is usually strong since his style remains the meta in that match-up
It's pretty unfortunate that he could not manage his health sufficiently enough to remain a top world player, but he is one of the most gifted players in sc2
@Wombat: yeah, the game on Cosmic Sapphire in particular Global StarCraft II League/2022/Season 2 was kinda ridiculous. Golds + enriched gas minerals won't ever be balanced in sc2 because of the difference in macro mechanics between the races, but mapmakers don't really care about balance so it's not surprising (cf. the HeroMarine / mapmakers drama from way back)
This was the map that HeroMarine was so angry about...
This map was the one where I argued with Demuslim about. According to him, it was massively terran favored versus zerg because of the tank spots and such. My argument was that the winrate (it was slightly zerg favored at the time, with similar sample size as now) didn't corroborate that it was "massively" T favored. He went on to say that all his progamers friends say it is super terran favored so it is ; that I'm an idiot yada yada. Point is that winrates don't tell the whole story, maybe people vetoed the map too much because they felt (maybe with good reason) that it was T favored vs zerg, so it was not played enough for the stats to display it. Also since there is very often a way to beat inferior players in sc2 despite map / race balance, maybe most of the games played on it were between players that knew they would win (or lose) no matter the map and did not care. Plus the fact that not that many people played sc2 anymore, the sample size would remain kinda low for a proper quantitative analysis (and qualitative analysis is too complicated)
-> stats don't necessarily tell the whole story
So yeah, Cosmic Sapphire has a decent winrate in TvP, still an horrendous map that should not have been used for a GSL finals (not that there were many better maps in this particular map pool anyways)
On February 21 2024 22:10 Poopi wrote: The thing about ByuN is that despite sticking to one style, notably in TvT where he just plays marine / tank until he wins or lose the game, he is still a very difficult opponent. Even if that style is theoretically subpar, he can beat the likes of Cure, Maru or Clem with it because of his mastery. His TvZ is a bit weak relatively speaking, but his TvP is usually strong since his style remains the meta in that match-up
It's pretty unfortunate that he could not manage his health sufficiently enough to remain a top world player, but he is one of the most gifted players in sc2
@Wombat: yeah, the game on Cosmic Sapphire in particular Global StarCraft II League/2022/Season 2 was kinda ridiculous. Golds + enriched gas minerals won't ever be balanced in sc2 because of the difference in macro mechanics between the races, but mapmakers don't really care about balance so it's not surprising (cf. the HeroMarine / mapmakers drama from way back)
This was the map that HeroMarine was so angry about...
This map was the one where I argued with Demuslim about. According to him, it was massively terran favored versus zerg because of the tank spots and such. My argument was that the winrate (it was slightly zerg favored at the time, with similar sample size as now) didn't corroborate that it was "massively" T favored. He went on to say that all his progamers friends say it is super terran favored so it is ; that I'm an idiot yada yada. Point is that winrates don't tell the whole story, maybe people vetoed the map too much because they felt (maybe with good reason) that it was T favored vs zerg, so it was not played enough for the stats to display it. Also since there is very often a way to beat inferior players in sc2 despite map / race balance, maybe most of the games played on it were between players that knew they would win (or lose) no matter the map and did not care. Plus the fact that not that many people played sc2 anymore, the sample size would remain kinda low for a proper quantitative analysis (and qualitative analysis is too complicated)
-> stats don't necessarily tell the whole story
So yeah, Cosmic Sapphire has a decent winrate in TvP, still an horrendous map that should not have been used for a GSL finals (not that there were many better maps in this particular map pool anyways)
It was hardly a great pool/patch for Toss in combination, just better than today’s sorry state. Let’s say we throw that map out the window, it’s not great sure but Toss was hardly broken.
Sure fluctuations will favour some players, even if it’s stylistic rather than outright down to balance.
herO and TY may have preferred x time but they were both competitive over big spans of time, in different metas.
Byun won all his big tournaments in a short span off particular skill with one unit. I just don’t see how it’s comparable to the examples you threw out.
On February 21 2024 22:10 Poopi wrote: The thing about ByuN is that despite sticking to one style, notably in TvT where he just plays marine / tank until he wins or lose the game, he is still a very difficult opponent. Even if that style is theoretically subpar, he can beat the likes of Cure, Maru or Clem with it because of his mastery. His TvZ is a bit weak relatively speaking, but his TvP is usually strong since his style remains the meta in that match-up
It's pretty unfortunate that he could not manage his health sufficiently enough to remain a top world player, but he is one of the most gifted players in sc2
@Wombat: yeah, the game on Cosmic Sapphire in particular Global StarCraft II League/2022/Season 2 was kinda ridiculous. Golds + enriched gas minerals won't ever be balanced in sc2 because of the difference in macro mechanics between the races, but mapmakers don't really care about balance so it's not surprising (cf. the HeroMarine / mapmakers drama from way back)
This was the map that HeroMarine was so angry about...
This map was the one where I argued with Demuslim about. According to him, it was massively terran favored versus zerg because of the tank spots and such. My argument was that the winrate (it was slightly zerg favored at the time, with similar sample size as now) didn't corroborate that it was "massively" T favored. He went on to say that all his progamers friends say it is super terran favored so it is ; that I'm an idiot yada yada. Point is that winrates don't tell the whole story, maybe people vetoed the map too much because they felt (maybe with good reason) that it was T favored vs zerg, so it was not played enough for the stats to display it. Also since there is very often a way to beat inferior players in sc2 despite map / race balance, maybe most of the games played on it were between players that knew they would win (or lose) no matter the map and did not care. Plus the fact that not that many people played sc2 anymore, the sample size would remain kinda low for a proper quantitative analysis (and qualitative analysis is too complicated)
-> stats don't necessarily tell the whole story
So yeah, Cosmic Sapphire has a decent winrate in TvP, still an horrendous map that should not have been used for a GSL finals (not that there were many better maps in this particular map pool anyways)
It was hardly a great pool/patch for Toss in combination, just better than today’s sorry state. Let’s say we throw that map out the window, it’s not great sure but Toss was hardly broken.
Sure fluctuations will favour some players, even if it’s stylistic rather than outright down to balance.
herO and TY may have preferred x time but they were both competitive over big spans of time, in different metas.
Byun won all his big tournaments in a short span off particular skill with one unit. I just don’t see how it’s comparable to the examples you threw out.
herO won a little bit more money than ByuN outside of ByuN BlizzCon victory year, but not by that much and they have had similar earnings patterns.
TY has an even more "top" heavy earnings year than ByuN, he was basically only super successful in 2017, once again, when tank pushes were super strong. Before or after, his career is similar in earnings to ByuN. If he didn't win those 2 GSLs in 2020 I would even say that ByuN's career is as good as TY. sources:
So maybe herO is a bad example, but TY is pretty similar to ByuN in terms of career. I mean we can then argue that TY actually won gold afterwards, whereas ByuN only got 3rd / 2nd or the likes, but then we gotta bring back soO... It is a never ending debate
I don't have contacts among the KR players, but I highly doubt that they consider ByuN a patch terran (or what would they even consider Rogue then?)
On February 21 2024 22:10 Poopi wrote: The thing about ByuN is that despite sticking to one style, notably in TvT where he just plays marine / tank until he wins or lose the game, he is still a very difficult opponent. Even if that style is theoretically subpar, he can beat the likes of Cure, Maru or Clem with it because of his mastery. His TvZ is a bit weak relatively speaking, but his TvP is usually strong since his style remains the meta in that match-up
It's pretty unfortunate that he could not manage his health sufficiently enough to remain a top world player, but he is one of the most gifted players in sc2
@Wombat: yeah, the game on Cosmic Sapphire in particular Global StarCraft II League/2022/Season 2 was kinda ridiculous. Golds + enriched gas minerals won't ever be balanced in sc2 because of the difference in macro mechanics between the races, but mapmakers don't really care about balance so it's not surprising (cf. the HeroMarine / mapmakers drama from way back)
This was the map that HeroMarine was so angry about...
This map was the one where I argued with Demuslim about. According to him, it was massively terran favored versus zerg because of the tank spots and such. My argument was that the winrate (it was slightly zerg favored at the time, with similar sample size as now) didn't corroborate that it was "massively" T favored. He went on to say that all his progamers friends say it is super terran favored so it is ; that I'm an idiot yada yada. Point is that winrates don't tell the whole story, maybe people vetoed the map too much because they felt (maybe with good reason) that it was T favored vs zerg, so it was not played enough for the stats to display it. Also since there is very often a way to beat inferior players in sc2 despite map / race balance, maybe most of the games played on it were between players that knew they would win (or lose) no matter the map and did not care. Plus the fact that not that many people played sc2 anymore, the sample size would remain kinda low for a proper quantitative analysis (and qualitative analysis is too complicated)
-> stats don't necessarily tell the whole story
So yeah, Cosmic Sapphire has a decent winrate in TvP, still an horrendous map that should not have been used for a GSL finals (not that there were many better maps in this particular map pool anyways)
It was hardly a great pool/patch for Toss in combination, just better than today’s sorry state. Let’s say we throw that map out the window, it’s not great sure but Toss was hardly broken.
Sure fluctuations will favour some players, even if it’s stylistic rather than outright down to balance.
herO and TY may have preferred x time but they were both competitive over big spans of time, in different metas.
Byun won all his big tournaments in a short span off particular skill with one unit. I just don’t see how it’s comparable to the examples you threw out.
herO won a little bit more money than ByuN outside of ByuN BlizzCon victory year, but not by that much and they have had similar earnings patterns.
TY has an even more "top" heavy earnings year than ByuN, he was basically only super successful in 2017, once again, when tank pushes were super strong. Before or after, his career is similar in earnings to ByuN. If he didn't win those 2 GSLs in 2020 I would even say that ByuN's career is as good as TY. sources:
So maybe herO is a bad example, but TY is pretty similar to ByuN in terms of career. I mean we can then argue that TY actually won gold afterwards, whereas ByuN only got 3rd / 2nd or the likes, but then we gotta bring back soO... It is a never ending debate
If you disregard both of those players proleague careers sure. herO more so of course but TY did get a win vs skt1 in the final and generally was a solid player for KT.
On February 21 2024 09:02 Pentarp wrote: Why are we only looking at tournament results?
Look at the single-handed impact of Mvp in getting ghost snipe nerfed into oblivion. No other player can boast a massive balance change based only on their performance.
ByuN being a reaper patch terran caused some big nerfs and Scarlett got that disgusting unbeatable elevator ling build nerfed as well. I'd say both of those were more obnoxious as Mvp is way better than either.
ByuN was able to beat Serral in epic macro games after coming back from the military, there is no world (even if mvp happened to be younger and didn't have health issues) in which Mvp would have been able to do the same on LotV in 2020. I mean I like mvp as much as any terran fan, and he might be higher than ByuN in a GOAT list, but in a best player of all time list, ByuN has reached highs mvp could not ever reach simply mechanically speaking.
Number of Premier events won by ByuN while reapers and 2/1/1 were way too good in 2016: 3
Number of Premier events won in the last eight years since reapers were nerfed: 0
You can admit it and still like the guy.
I was surprised the ASUS Rog he won wasn’t a Premier, it was stacked as,
Aye, does anyone not like Byun? But he’s pretty one-dimensional, just excellent in that dimension. Is it really different from the ‘patch Zergs’ that won big prizes and nobody ever, ever talks about?
Having insane micro only goes so far, other folks are a bit more rounded
Byun is the terran version of herO.
All they think about is attack attack attack. Fun entertaining players
On February 21 2024 22:10 Poopi wrote: The thing about ByuN is that despite sticking to one style, notably in TvT where he just plays marine / tank until he wins or lose the game, he is still a very difficult opponent. Even if that style is theoretically subpar, he can beat the likes of Cure, Maru or Clem with it because of his mastery. His TvZ is a bit weak relatively speaking, but his TvP is usually strong since his style remains the meta in that match-up
It's pretty unfortunate that he could not manage his health sufficiently enough to remain a top world player, but he is one of the most gifted players in sc2
@Wombat: yeah, the game on Cosmic Sapphire in particular Global StarCraft II League/2022/Season 2 was kinda ridiculous. Golds + enriched gas minerals won't ever be balanced in sc2 because of the difference in macro mechanics between the races, but mapmakers don't really care about balance so it's not surprising (cf. the HeroMarine / mapmakers drama from way back)
This was the map that HeroMarine was so angry about...
This map was the one where I argued with Demuslim about. According to him, it was massively terran favored versus zerg because of the tank spots and such. My argument was that the winrate (it was slightly zerg favored at the time, with similar sample size as now) didn't corroborate that it was "massively" T favored. He went on to say that all his progamers friends say it is super terran favored so it is ; that I'm an idiot yada yada. Point is that winrates don't tell the whole story, maybe people vetoed the map too much because they felt (maybe with good reason) that it was T favored vs zerg, so it was not played enough for the stats to display it. Also since there is very often a way to beat inferior players in sc2 despite map / race balance, maybe most of the games played on it were between players that knew they would win (or lose) no matter the map and did not care. Plus the fact that not that many people played sc2 anymore, the sample size would remain kinda low for a proper quantitative analysis (and qualitative analysis is too complicated)
-> stats don't necessarily tell the whole story
So yeah, Cosmic Sapphire has a decent winrate in TvP, still an horrendous map that should not have been used for a GSL finals (not that there were many better maps in this particular map pool anyways)
It was hardly a great pool/patch for Toss in combination, just better than today’s sorry state. Let’s say we throw that map out the window, it’s not great sure but Toss was hardly broken.
Sure fluctuations will favour some players, even if it’s stylistic rather than outright down to balance.
herO and TY may have preferred x time but they were both competitive over big spans of time, in different metas.
Byun won all his big tournaments in a short span off particular skill with one unit. I just don’t see how it’s comparable to the examples you threw out.
herO won a little bit more money than ByuN outside of ByuN BlizzCon victory year, but not by that much and they have had similar earnings patterns.
TY has an even more "top" heavy earnings year than ByuN, he was basically only super successful in 2017, once again, when tank pushes were super strong. Before or after, his career is similar in earnings to ByuN. If he didn't win those 2 GSLs in 2020 I would even say that ByuN's career is as good as TY. sources:
So maybe herO is a bad example, but TY is pretty similar to ByuN in terms of career. I mean we can then argue that TY actually won gold afterwards, whereas ByuN only got 3rd / 2nd or the likes, but then we gotta bring back soO... It is a never ending debate
I don't have contacts among the KR players, but I highly doubt that they consider ByuN a patch terran (or what would they even consider Rogue then?)
If you ignore entirely korean starleague results then I guess Byun and TY are similar yeah
Mvp was the most high-profile Brood War player to switch games at that point, being the only regular Proleague rotation player to make the leap. Considering that reputation, his first tournament was a disappointment as he finished in the RO32 of the 64-player tournament. Open Season 3 was similarly unremarkable, though Mvp improved slightly for an RO16 finish (most notably beating IdrA on the way).
His results were unremarkable. But I argue if you look at his gameplay he looked far far better than anyone else in 2010.
Watch Open Season 2 and how he plays TvZ in contrast to how terrans otherwise played Sc2. His style of gameplay was more similar to how it was played in 2011 whereas other terrans opened 1base Nukedrops (marineking) or BC rushes.
He knew how to play bio and macroplay such as splitting bio which he was the first one to demonstrate on the stage (although marineking popularized it).
However, he was definitely quite vulnerable to all-ins in 2010 as he hadn't quite nailed all parts of the game. But fundamentally speaking he was by far the best terran player in the early stage of Sc2.
The reason I rank him so highly is that almost noone in the first year of Sc2 understood how to play the game. MVP did and paved the way for a lot of terran playersr.
Even how to think about mixing builds together. If you wanna go for an early-in, your initial part of the build need to look similar to how you play the stand macro game. Similarly if you wanna greed, it needs to look similarly on the outside to how you play a solid game. MVP was the only terran player who understood that concept for the first 1½ year of WOL.
Mvp was the most high-profile Brood War player to switch games at that point, being the only regular Proleague rotation player to make the leap. Considering that reputation, his first tournament was a disappointment as he finished in the RO32 of the 64-player tournament. Open Season 3 was similarly unremarkable, though Mvp improved slightly for an RO16 finish (most notably beating IdrA on the way).
His results were unremarkable. But I argue if you look at his gameplay he looked far far better than anyone else in 2010.
Watch Open Season 2 and how he plays TvZ in contrast to how terrans otherwise played Sc2. His style of gameplay was more similar to how it was played in 2011 whereas other terrans opened 1base Nukedrops (marineking) or BC rushes.
He knew how to play bio and macroplay such as splitting bio which he was the first one to demonstrate on the stage (although marineking popularized it).
However, he was definitely quite vulnerable to all-ins in 2010 as he hadn't quite nailed all parts of the game. But fundamentally speaking he was by far the best terran player in the early stage of Sc2.
The reason I rank him so highly is that almost noone in the first year of Sc2 understood how to play the game. MVP did and paved the way for a lot of terran playersr.
Even how to think about mixing builds together. If you wanna go for an early-in, your initial part of the build need to look similar to how you play the stand macro game. Similarly if you wanna greed, it needs to look similarly on the outside to how you play a solid game. MVP was the only terran player who understood that concept for the first 1½ year of WOL.
Mvp losing to all-ins and stuff despite being able to play macro games better than most players at the time is why it’s so funny when people think random masters of today would be able to win the GSLs from WoL. Sure, current top players would have a shot. Random low GMs might get extremely lucky but ultimately having learned to play LotV with bazillion QoL changes, free 2nd base and barely any real potent 1 base threat is not enough to just go back in time and win an open season. The most exciting thing about GSL back then was the « hidden » monsters like Bomber. Every KR player would label him and MKP (iirc) as ladder gods, yet Bomber needed so much time to qualify.
MMA managing to hang on with Mvp (and Polt with his Super Tournament win) were a big deal back then, it was no small feat. The competition was fierce despite kespa not switching yet
Mvp was the most high-profile Brood War player to switch games at that point, being the only regular Proleague rotation player to make the leap. Considering that reputation, his first tournament was a disappointment as he finished in the RO32 of the 64-player tournament. Open Season 3 was similarly unremarkable, though Mvp improved slightly for an RO16 finish (most notably beating IdrA on the way).
His results were unremarkable. But I argue if you look at his gameplay he looked far far better than anyone else in 2010.
Watch Open Season 2 and how he plays TvZ in contrast to how terrans otherwise played Sc2. His style of gameplay was more similar to how it was played in 2011 whereas other terrans opened 1base Nukedrops (marineking) or BC rushes.
He knew how to play bio and macroplay such as splitting bio which he was the first one to demonstrate on the stage (although marineking popularized it).
However, he was definitely quite vulnerable to all-ins in 2010 as he hadn't quite nailed all parts of the game. But fundamentally speaking he was by far the best terran player in the early stage of Sc2.
The reason I rank him so highly is that almost noone in the first year of Sc2 understood how to play the game. MVP did and paved the way for a lot of terran playersr.
Even how to think about mixing builds together. If you wanna go for an early-in, your initial part of the build need to look similar to how you play the stand macro game. Similarly if you wanna greed, it needs to look similarly on the outside to how you play a solid game. MVP was the only terran player who understood that concept for the first 1½ year of WOL.
Mvp losing to all-ins and stuff despite being able to play macro games better than most players at the time is why it’s so funny when people think random masters of today would be able to win the GSLs from WoL. Sure, current top players would have a shot. Random low GMs might get extremely lucky but ultimately having learned to play LotV with bazillion QoL changes, free 2nd base and barely any real potent 1 base threat is not enough to just go back in time and win an open season. The most exciting thing about GSL back then was the « hidden » monsters like Bomber. Every KR player would label him and MKP (iirc) as ladder gods, yet Bomber needed so much time to qualify.
MMA managing to hang on with Mvp (and Polt with his Super Tournament win) were a big deal back then, it was no small feat. The competition was fierce despite kespa not switching yet
I mean random masters player have a fundamentally much better understanding on how to play Starcraft than any GSL players (bar MVP/Nestea) in 2010. However, they would unquestionably lose to a lot of all-ins without specific practice in on the match/patch etc.
However, I think you do underestimate just how "stupid" players were back then. Terrans didn't even realize that opening hellions in TvZ were a must. This was pre-queen range buff. Queens had 3 range, they couldn't do anything. Hellions were insanely overpowered early TvZ. It took until mid 2011 before reactor first hellion (before expo) became the standard. Before that, terrans would still do terrible 1base all ins or other random cheeses.
If I could teleport myself back - with a few weeks of practice on the maps/patch - I put myself as one of the favorites to win any of the first 3 GSL seasons - even though my APM is much lower than the top competitors.
WoL was a much less mechanical demanding game than Sc2 today and terran was incredibly imbalanced in 2010. As long as you have a solid build, how do you even lose on maps like Lost Temple and Steppes of War as terran with like 150 effective APM and a solid understanding of the game + builds? At least TvZ should be unloseable. TvP, yes you do need some decent ghost/viking control to win late game, but protosses back then were terrible as well (bar MC).
But if you know how to do a fast 1base gasless expo in TvP (which is safe if you know how to do it right), you get a massive econ advantage in every TvP, and I think you win as well with 150 EAPM against everyone in that matchup.
Anyway, that's an offtopic. My original point was that every terran in 2010 had no clue what they were doing, didn't understand Starcraft fundamentals at all. MVP was the only one one in early Starcraft who demonstrated how to think about playing terran. Although in 2010 he was still somewhat raw. And I think he gets as little too praise for speeding up the learnings of all terrans in early WoL.
I know Jinro got praised a lot for being one of the only "macro terrans" in early WoL, but his macro-gameplay was weird and kind of "cheesy". Jinro relied massively on build-order-surprises to get ahead early in order to play an "imo" inefficienct macrotype of gameplay.
Mvp was the most high-profile Brood War player to switch games at that point, being the only regular Proleague rotation player to make the leap. Considering that reputation, his first tournament was a disappointment as he finished in the RO32 of the 64-player tournament. Open Season 3 was similarly unremarkable, though Mvp improved slightly for an RO16 finish (most notably beating IdrA on the way).
His results were unremarkable. But I argue if you look at his gameplay he looked far far better than anyone else in 2010.
Watch Open Season 2 and how he plays TvZ in contrast to how terrans otherwise played Sc2. His style of gameplay was more similar to how it was played in 2011 whereas other terrans opened 1base Nukedrops (marineking) or BC rushes.
He knew how to play bio and macroplay such as splitting bio which he was the first one to demonstrate on the stage (although marineking popularized it).
However, he was definitely quite vulnerable to all-ins in 2010 as he hadn't quite nailed all parts of the game. But fundamentally speaking he was by far the best terran player in the early stage of Sc2.
The reason I rank him so highly is that almost noone in the first year of Sc2 understood how to play the game. MVP did and paved the way for a lot of terran playersr.
Even how to think about mixing builds together. If you wanna go for an early-in, your initial part of the build need to look similar to how you play the stand macro game. Similarly if you wanna greed, it needs to look similarly on the outside to how you play a solid game. MVP was the only terran player who understood that concept for the first 1½ year of WOL.
Mvp losing to all-ins and stuff despite being able to play macro games better than most players at the time is why it’s so funny when people think random masters of today would be able to win the GSLs from WoL. Sure, current top players would have a shot. Random low GMs might get extremely lucky but ultimately having learned to play LotV with bazillion QoL changes, free 2nd base and barely any real potent 1 base threat is not enough to just go back in time and win an open season. The most exciting thing about GSL back then was the « hidden » monsters like Bomber. Every KR player would label him and MKP (iirc) as ladder gods, yet Bomber needed so much time to qualify.
MMA managing to hang on with Mvp (and Polt with his Super Tournament win) were a big deal back then, it was no small feat. The competition was fierce despite kespa not switching yet
I mean random masters player have a fundamentally much better understanding on how to play Starcraft than any GSL players (bar MVP/Nestea) in 2010. However, they would unquestionably lose to a lot of all-ins without specific practice in on the match/patch etc.
However, I think you do underestimate just how "stupid" players were back then. Terrans didn't even realize that opening hellions in TvZ were a must. This was pre-queen range buff. Queens had 3 range, they couldn't do anything. Hellions were insanely overpowered early TvZ. It took until mid 2011 before reactor first hellion (before expo) became the standard. Before that, terrans would still do terrible 1base all ins or other random cheeses.
If I could teleport myself back - with a few weeks of practice on the maps/patch - I put myself as one of the favorites to win any of the first 3 GSL seasons - even though my APM is much lower than the top competitors.
WoL was a much less mechanical demanding game than Sc2 today and terran was incredibly imbalanced in 2010. As long as you have a solid build, how do you even lose on maps like Lost Temple and Steppes of War as terran with like 150 effective APM and a solid understanding of the game + builds? At least TvZ should be unloseable. TvP, yes you do need some decent ghost/viking control to win late game, but protosses back then were terrible as well (bar MC).
But if you know how to do a fast 1base gasless expo in TvP (which is safe if you know how to do it right), you get a massive econ advantage in every TvP, and I think you win as well with 150 EAPM against everyone in that matchup.
Anyway, that's an offtopic. My original point was that every terran in 2010 had no clue what they were doing, didn't understand Starcraft fundamentals at all. MVP was the only one one in early Starcraft who demonstrated how to think about playing terran. Although in 2010 he was still somewhat raw. And I think he gets as little too praise for speeding up the learnings of all terrans in early WoL.
I know Jinro got praised a lot for being one of the only "macro terrans" in early WoL, but his macro-gameplay was weird and kind of "cheesy". Jinro relied massively on build-order-surprises to get ahead early in order to play an "imo" inefficienct macrotype of gameplay.
I’m still working on my time machine so hopefully someone can settle this once and for all!
Agreed, you could say the same about Idra too. Certainly a macro player, but it was kind of all he did and he was a bit vulnerable to certain styles. Where for Mvp it was eventually a resilient platform where he could execute a lot of gameplans from.
Mvp was the most high-profile Brood War player to switch games at that point, being the only regular Proleague rotation player to make the leap. Considering that reputation, his first tournament was a disappointment as he finished in the RO32 of the 64-player tournament. Open Season 3 was similarly unremarkable, though Mvp improved slightly for an RO16 finish (most notably beating IdrA on the way).
His results were unremarkable. But I argue if you look at his gameplay he looked far far better than anyone else in 2010.
Watch Open Season 2 and how he plays TvZ in contrast to how terrans otherwise played Sc2. His style of gameplay was more similar to how it was played in 2011 whereas other terrans opened 1base Nukedrops (marineking) or BC rushes.
He knew how to play bio and macroplay such as splitting bio which he was the first one to demonstrate on the stage (although marineking popularized it).
However, he was definitely quite vulnerable to all-ins in 2010 as he hadn't quite nailed all parts of the game. But fundamentally speaking he was by far the best terran player in the early stage of Sc2.
The reason I rank him so highly is that almost noone in the first year of Sc2 understood how to play the game. MVP did and paved the way for a lot of terran playersr.
Even how to think about mixing builds together. If you wanna go for an early-in, your initial part of the build need to look similar to how you play the stand macro game. Similarly if you wanna greed, it needs to look similarly on the outside to how you play a solid game. MVP was the only terran player who understood that concept for the first 1½ year of WOL.
Mvp losing to all-ins and stuff despite being able to play macro games better than most players at the time is why it’s so funny when people think random masters of today would be able to win the GSLs from WoL. Sure, current top players would have a shot. Random low GMs might get extremely lucky but ultimately having learned to play LotV with bazillion QoL changes, free 2nd base and barely any real potent 1 base threat is not enough to just go back in time and win an open season. The most exciting thing about GSL back then was the « hidden » monsters like Bomber. Every KR player would label him and MKP (iirc) as ladder gods, yet Bomber needed so much time to qualify.
MMA managing to hang on with Mvp (and Polt with his Super Tournament win) were a big deal back then, it was no small feat. The competition was fierce despite kespa not switching yet
I've probably seen a thousand different cheeses during WoL on the Korean ladder. A lot of them have been capable to take a game away from you in a bo3 qualifier if not properly scouted. It was a slugfest compared to todays macro heaven. And trust me, you do not want to pick a fight with a random Korean GM in low eco-micro wars. You will lose.
Yeah people also don’t realize how much micro intensive the early game was back then. I played both LucifroN and Happy on ladder and their micro was really doing wonders, there were enough micro gosus in KR at the time to make every match a mess. Sure, you could try to study each player and what happened in their games / what was their style, but there is still a high chance execution would not be enough.
Instead of a Time Machine though, we will probably be able to have AI agents that could somewhat mimic relatively accurately players of the past and stuff, so you would be able to play a tournament versus such players. I see that as theoretically possible, but it’s no easy feat so don’t know if it will be used for StarCraft
And now we have Dark, Rogue, Serral and Maru lefy With all due respect, a player who showed dominant performance for only 3 years +/- shouldn't be in the list
Mvp was the most high-profile Brood War player to switch games at that point, being the only regular Proleague rotation player to make the leap. Considering that reputation, his first tournament was a disappointment as he finished in the RO32 of the 64-player tournament. Open Season 3 was similarly unremarkable, though Mvp improved slightly for an RO16 finish (most notably beating IdrA on the way).
His results were unremarkable. But I argue if you look at his gameplay he looked far far better than anyone else in 2010.
Watch Open Season 2 and how he plays TvZ in contrast to how terrans otherwise played Sc2. His style of gameplay was more similar to how it was played in 2011 whereas other terrans opened 1base Nukedrops (marineking) or BC rushes.
He knew how to play bio and macroplay such as splitting bio which he was the first one to demonstrate on the stage (although marineking popularized it).
However, he was definitely quite vulnerable to all-ins in 2010 as he hadn't quite nailed all parts of the game. But fundamentally speaking he was by far the best terran player in the early stage of Sc2.
The reason I rank him so highly is that almost noone in the first year of Sc2 understood how to play the game. MVP did and paved the way for a lot of terran playersr.
Even how to think about mixing builds together. If you wanna go for an early-in, your initial part of the build need to look similar to how you play the stand macro game. Similarly if you wanna greed, it needs to look similarly on the outside to how you play a solid game. MVP was the only terran player who understood that concept for the first 1½ year of WOL.
Mvp losing to all-ins and stuff despite being able to play macro games better than most players at the time is why it’s so funny when people think random masters of today would be able to win the GSLs from WoL. Sure, current top players would have a shot. Random low GMs might get extremely lucky but ultimately having learned to play LotV with bazillion QoL changes, free 2nd base and barely any real potent 1 base threat is not enough to just go back in time and win an open season. The most exciting thing about GSL back then was the « hidden » monsters like Bomber. Every KR player would label him and MKP (iirc) as ladder gods, yet Bomber needed so much time to qualify.
MMA managing to hang on with Mvp (and Polt with his Super Tournament win) were a big deal back then, it was no small feat. The competition was fierce despite kespa not switching yet
I've probably seen a thousand different cheeses during WoL on the Korean ladder. A lot of them have been capable to take a game away from you in a bo3 qualifier if not properly scouted. It was a slugfest compared to todays macro heaven. And trust me, you do not want to pick a fight with a random Korean GM in low eco-micro wars. You will lose.
I'm also a big fan of this theoretical scenario in which you can travel back in time to the open seasons. I think for one season, my chances might be okay because I could use broken builds in each match that just haven't been discovered yet. Which Zerg or Protoss in S1 would have been able to stop a perfectly executed good old 4-Gate? After a series, you'd have to pick something else, but I do believe there's enough stuff that you could pull through as a high masters/low GM player nowadays.
But you're right, maybe I'm completely delusional. Making it through the qualifiers would definitely already be an incredibly difficult hurdle as the random cheesy sh1t you have to deal with may well throw off some of the most stable players when you have to fight your way through so much of it. So while I agree that the mechanics of the pros then were certainly better than today's random masters players', the build orders and actual strategies you could bring to a format where you have time to prepare may have you pull through. Perhaps you could just 4 Gate your way through the qualifiers, too, I don't know.
Mvp was the most high-profile Brood War player to switch games at that point, being the only regular Proleague rotation player to make the leap. Considering that reputation, his first tournament was a disappointment as he finished in the RO32 of the 64-player tournament. Open Season 3 was similarly unremarkable, though Mvp improved slightly for an RO16 finish (most notably beating IdrA on the way).
His results were unremarkable. But I argue if you look at his gameplay he looked far far better than anyone else in 2010.
Watch Open Season 2 and how he plays TvZ in contrast to how terrans otherwise played Sc2. His style of gameplay was more similar to how it was played in 2011 whereas other terrans opened 1base Nukedrops (marineking) or BC rushes.
He knew how to play bio and macroplay such as splitting bio which he was the first one to demonstrate on the stage (although marineking popularized it).
However, he was definitely quite vulnerable to all-ins in 2010 as he hadn't quite nailed all parts of the game. But fundamentally speaking he was by far the best terran player in the early stage of Sc2.
The reason I rank him so highly is that almost noone in the first year of Sc2 understood how to play the game. MVP did and paved the way for a lot of terran playersr.
Even how to think about mixing builds together. If you wanna go for an early-in, your initial part of the build need to look similar to how you play the stand macro game. Similarly if you wanna greed, it needs to look similarly on the outside to how you play a solid game. MVP was the only terran player who understood that concept for the first 1½ year of WOL.
Mvp losing to all-ins and stuff despite being able to play macro games better than most players at the time is why it’s so funny when people think random masters of today would be able to win the GSLs from WoL. Sure, current top players would have a shot. Random low GMs might get extremely lucky but ultimately having learned to play LotV with bazillion QoL changes, free 2nd base and barely any real potent 1 base threat is not enough to just go back in time and win an open season. The most exciting thing about GSL back then was the « hidden » monsters like Bomber. Every KR player would label him and MKP (iirc) as ladder gods, yet Bomber needed so much time to qualify.
MMA managing to hang on with Mvp (and Polt with his Super Tournament win) were a big deal back then, it was no small feat. The competition was fierce despite kespa not switching yet
I've probably seen a thousand different cheeses during WoL on the Korean ladder. A lot of them have been capable to take a game away from you in a bo3 qualifier if not properly scouted. It was a slugfest compared to todays macro heaven. And trust me, you do not want to pick a fight with a random Korean GM in low eco-micro wars. You will lose.
I'm also a big fan of this theoretical scenario in which you can travel back in time to the open seasons. I think for one season, my chances might be okay because I could use broken builds in each match that just haven't been discovered yet. Which Zerg or Protoss in S1 would have been able to stop a perfectly executed good old 4-Gate? After a series, you'd have to pick something else, but I do believe there's enough stuff that you could pull through as a high masters/low GM player nowadays.
But you're right, maybe I'm completely delusional. Making it through the qualifiers would definitely already be an incredibly difficult hurdle as the random cheesy sh1t you have to deal with may well throw off some of the most stable players when you have to fight your way through so much of it. So while I agree that the mechanics of the pros then were certainly better than today's random masters players', the build orders and actual strategies you could bring to a format where you have time to prepare may have you pull through. Perhaps you could just 4 Gate your way through the qualifiers, too, I don't know.
I mean even if you look at MKP’s godlike splitting in those days relatively speaking versus now and what even decent GMs are doing, the knowledge gap does manifest mechanically too.
I think back to the 1/1/1 phase and how brutal that was at the time, but it ended up that 1 gate expands had their eco kick in early enough that you could just counter it by having more stuff. Which in turn saw the meta shift away from 3 gate expos/aggression into that being a very stock opener.
Perhaps the maps were too bad different to apply every development that occurred in the next year or so, but you could definitely at least adapt some of these concepts. You could also exploit everything that was broken but unexplored at this time.
Protoss players didn’t really frequently use warp prisms for quite some time, San Zenith was the first guy to really exploit Khaydarin Amulet, and when he did it got almost immediately nerfed. You could probably make hay with that. Or in smaller eco, scrappier games something like dual Immortal in a prism would be a pain in the arse, or a variant of the DT into Archon drop.
Add to that just minor optimisations like rapid fire hotkey setups and the like and you have a veritable fuckton of advantages.
This scenario especially appeals to me because presumably this person returns back to their own time at some stage, so it would be like Byun’s period of absence on steroids! Who was this guy, how was he so ahead of the curve? Where did he go?! And like a decade later he’d just be casually laddering and folks would keep badgering him if he was the same guy that just casually won a GSL and disappeared.
On February 22 2024 16:03 EEk1TwEEk wrote: And now we have Dark, Rogue, Serral and Maru lefy With all due respect, a player who showed dominant performance for only 3 years +/- shouldn't be in the list
Agree , GOAT has the words All Time in it that Status is impossible to reach for only playing a handfull Tournaments in just 2 years
This was a pleasant surprise. I assumed the metrics favored a long career a little too much for Mvp to be this high up, but I honestly agree with this placement. His career, especially the 2012 GSL run and that WCS match against INnoVation, were inspiring.
On February 22 2024 16:03 EEk1TwEEk wrote: And now we have Dark, Rogue, Serral and Maru lefy With all due respect, a player who showed dominant performance for only 3 years +/- shouldn't be in the list
Agree , GOAT has the words All Time in it that Status is impossible to reach for only playing a handfull Tournaments in just 2 years
Well, that's why three players have passed Mvp in the ten years since his retirement.
On February 21 2024 10:57 Fighter wrote: I wonder if Life is eligible for these lists or if he's too verboten.
He should be but considering we also need to fit Rogue, Maru and Serral, I can't see Life. Unless Serral will be discarded for never properly competing in GSL. Honestly still am surprised Parting is not in.
On February 21 2024 10:57 Fighter wrote: I wonder if Life is eligible for these lists or if he's too verboten.
He should be but considering we also need to fit Rogue, Maru and Serral, I can't see Life. Unless Serral will be discarded for never properly competing in GSL. Honestly still am surprised Parting is not in.
Mizenhauer has on multiple occasions stated that Life hasn't made the list both due to the scandal and him not fitting the criteria for a top 10 spot anyway.
On February 21 2024 10:57 Fighter wrote: I wonder if Life is eligible for these lists or if he's too verboten.
He should be but considering we also need to fit Rogue, Maru and Serral, I can't see Life. Unless Serral will be discarded for never properly competing in GSL. Honestly still am surprised Parting is not in.
Mizenhauer has on multiple occasions stated that Life hasn't made the list both due to the scandal and him not fitting the criteria for a top 10 spot anyway.
Mvp was the most high-profile Brood War player to switch games at that point, being the only regular Proleague rotation player to make the leap. Considering that reputation, his first tournament was a disappointment as he finished in the RO32 of the 64-player tournament. Open Season 3 was similarly unremarkable, though Mvp improved slightly for an RO16 finish (most notably beating IdrA on the way).
His results were unremarkable. But I argue if you look at his gameplay he looked far far better than anyone else in 2010.
Watch Open Season 2 and how he plays TvZ in contrast to how terrans otherwise played Sc2. His style of gameplay was more similar to how it was played in 2011 whereas other terrans opened 1base Nukedrops (marineking) or BC rushes.
He knew how to play bio and macroplay such as splitting bio which he was the first one to demonstrate on the stage (although marineking popularized it).
However, he was definitely quite vulnerable to all-ins in 2010 as he hadn't quite nailed all parts of the game. But fundamentally speaking he was by far the best terran player in the early stage of Sc2.
The reason I rank him so highly is that almost noone in the first year of Sc2 understood how to play the game. MVP did and paved the way for a lot of terran playersr.
Even how to think about mixing builds together. If you wanna go for an early-in, your initial part of the build need to look similar to how you play the stand macro game. Similarly if you wanna greed, it needs to look similarly on the outside to how you play a solid game. MVP was the only terran player who understood that concept for the first 1½ year of WOL.
Mvp losing to all-ins and stuff despite being able to play macro games better than most players at the time is why it’s so funny when people think random masters of today would be able to win the GSLs from WoL. Sure, current top players would have a shot. Random low GMs might get extremely lucky but ultimately having learned to play LotV with bazillion QoL changes, free 2nd base and barely any real potent 1 base threat is not enough to just go back in time and win an open season. The most exciting thing about GSL back then was the « hidden » monsters like Bomber. Every KR player would label him and MKP (iirc) as ladder gods, yet Bomber needed so much time to qualify.
MMA managing to hang on with Mvp (and Polt with his Super Tournament win) were a big deal back then, it was no small feat. The competition was fierce despite kespa not switching yet
I mean random masters player have a fundamentally much better understanding on how to play Starcraft than any GSL players (bar MVP/Nestea) in 2010. However, they would unquestionably lose to a lot of all-ins without specific practice in on the match/patch etc.
However, I think you do underestimate just how "stupid" players were back then. Terrans didn't even realize that opening hellions in TvZ were a must. This was pre-queen range buff. Queens had 3 range, they couldn't do anything. Hellions were insanely overpowered early TvZ. It took until mid 2011 before reactor first hellion (before expo) became the standard. Before that, terrans would still do terrible 1base all ins or other random cheeses.
If I could teleport myself back - with a few weeks of practice on the maps/patch - I put myself as one of the favorites to win any of the first 3 GSL seasons - even though my APM is much lower than the top competitors.
WoL was a much less mechanical demanding game than Sc2 today and terran was incredibly imbalanced in 2010. As long as you have a solid build, how do you even lose on maps like Lost Temple and Steppes of War as terran with like 150 effective APM and a solid understanding of the game + builds? At least TvZ should be unloseable. TvP, yes you do need some decent ghost/viking control to win late game, but protosses back then were terrible as well (bar MC).
But if you know how to do a fast 1base gasless expo in TvP (which is safe if you know how to do it right), you get a massive econ advantage in every TvP, and I think you win as well with 150 EAPM against everyone in that matchup.
Anyway, that's an offtopic. My original point was that every terran in 2010 had no clue what they were doing, didn't understand Starcraft fundamentals at all. MVP was the only one one in early Starcraft who demonstrated how to think about playing terran. Although in 2010 he was still somewhat raw. And I think he gets as little too praise for speeding up the learnings of all terrans in early WoL.
I know Jinro got praised a lot for being one of the only "macro terrans" in early WoL, but his macro-gameplay was weird and kind of "cheesy". Jinro relied massively on build-order-surprises to get ahead early in order to play an "imo" inefficienct macrotype of gameplay.
I’m still working on my time machine so hopefully someone can settle this once and for all!
Agreed, you could say the same about Idra too. Certainly a macro player, but it was kind of all he did and he was a bit vulnerable to certain styles. Where for Mvp it was eventually a resilient platform where he could execute a lot of gameplans from.
Idra may well have been the best Sc2 player in the first few months post release and late beta. However, he had a completely wrong mentality for how to think about Starcraft, and I am not just thinking about early GG timing.
His mentality was "I need to defend, build an army, and then attack and then I should win". Whereas execution of micro and how to trade, or even how to accurately time your attack.
So while MVP early on was a bit "raw" but had the correct idea on how to play the game, Idra wasn't raw early Sc2, but was mechanically vastly better than almost everyone else and knew the basics of the game better than other of the better BW players who switched. However, he gradually got worse as he never really "understood" how to win games after everyone learned the basics.
I also think 2012-zerg era mased how bad he had become at that point in time. Without zerg being so OP in that era he would likely have retired earlier.
Mvp was the most high-profile Brood War player to switch games at that point, being the only regular Proleague rotation player to make the leap. Considering that reputation, his first tournament was a disappointment as he finished in the RO32 of the 64-player tournament. Open Season 3 was similarly unremarkable, though Mvp improved slightly for an RO16 finish (most notably beating IdrA on the way).
His results were unremarkable. But I argue if you look at his gameplay he looked far far better than anyone else in 2010.
Watch Open Season 2 and how he plays TvZ in contrast to how terrans otherwise played Sc2. His style of gameplay was more similar to how it was played in 2011 whereas other terrans opened 1base Nukedrops (marineking) or BC rushes.
He knew how to play bio and macroplay such as splitting bio which he was the first one to demonstrate on the stage (although marineking popularized it).
However, he was definitely quite vulnerable to all-ins in 2010 as he hadn't quite nailed all parts of the game. But fundamentally speaking he was by far the best terran player in the early stage of Sc2.
The reason I rank him so highly is that almost noone in the first year of Sc2 understood how to play the game. MVP did and paved the way for a lot of terran playersr.
Even how to think about mixing builds together. If you wanna go for an early-in, your initial part of the build need to look similar to how you play the stand macro game. Similarly if you wanna greed, it needs to look similarly on the outside to how you play a solid game. MVP was the only terran player who understood that concept for the first 1½ year of WOL.
Mvp losing to all-ins and stuff despite being able to play macro games better than most players at the time is why it’s so funny when people think random masters of today would be able to win the GSLs from WoL. Sure, current top players would have a shot. Random low GMs might get extremely lucky but ultimately having learned to play LotV with bazillion QoL changes, free 2nd base and barely any real potent 1 base threat is not enough to just go back in time and win an open season. The most exciting thing about GSL back then was the « hidden » monsters like Bomber. Every KR player would label him and MKP (iirc) as ladder gods, yet Bomber needed so much time to qualify.
MMA managing to hang on with Mvp (and Polt with his Super Tournament win) were a big deal back then, it was no small feat. The competition was fierce despite kespa not switching yet
I've probably seen a thousand different cheeses during WoL on the Korean ladder. A lot of them have been capable to take a game away from you in a bo3 qualifier if not properly scouted. It was a slugfest compared to todays macro heaven. And trust me, you do not want to pick a fight with a random Korean GM in low eco-micro wars. You will lose.
I think the major problem (from terran perspective) is that they simply didn't know how to play safe. However, early-mid-2011 it got pretty obvious how terrans were supposed to get safely into macro games. But 2010 terrans didn't know that and aside from Blistering Sands - it imo had nothing to with the map-pool but rather a lack of understanding of the basics.
I think the bigger problem is that terrans back then had the idea that the race was bad late game and was "supposed to cheese/all-in". So that was the entire focus of the race. Plus winning games by doing early allins as opposed to properly learning how to play macro was harder so players were rewarded short-term for not properly learning the game.
That's why MVP stood out so much in open season 2 and season 3 (from the eye test) despite his results not being that great, because he actually wanted to properly play the game.
As an example of terrible terran openers in 2010. 1 base nuke drop. And on map 2 we open Maurauders vs zerg (???). This was a finalist btw.
Mvp was the most high-profile Brood War player to switch games at that point, being the only regular Proleague rotation player to make the leap. Considering that reputation, his first tournament was a disappointment as he finished in the RO32 of the 64-player tournament. Open Season 3 was similarly unremarkable, though Mvp improved slightly for an RO16 finish (most notably beating IdrA on the way).
His results were unremarkable. But I argue if you look at his gameplay he looked far far better than anyone else in 2010.
Watch Open Season 2 and how he plays TvZ in contrast to how terrans otherwise played Sc2. His style of gameplay was more similar to how it was played in 2011 whereas other terrans opened 1base Nukedrops (marineking) or BC rushes.
He knew how to play bio and macroplay such as splitting bio which he was the first one to demonstrate on the stage (although marineking popularized it).
However, he was definitely quite vulnerable to all-ins in 2010 as he hadn't quite nailed all parts of the game. But fundamentally speaking he was by far the best terran player in the early stage of Sc2.
The reason I rank him so highly is that almost noone in the first year of Sc2 understood how to play the game. MVP did and paved the way for a lot of terran playersr.
Even how to think about mixing builds together. If you wanna go for an early-in, your initial part of the build need to look similar to how you play the stand macro game. Similarly if you wanna greed, it needs to look similarly on the outside to how you play a solid game. MVP was the only terran player who understood that concept for the first 1½ year of WOL.
Mvp losing to all-ins and stuff despite being able to play macro games better than most players at the time is why it’s so funny when people think random masters of today would be able to win the GSLs from WoL. Sure, current top players would have a shot. Random low GMs might get extremely lucky but ultimately having learned to play LotV with bazillion QoL changes, free 2nd base and barely any real potent 1 base threat is not enough to just go back in time and win an open season. The most exciting thing about GSL back then was the « hidden » monsters like Bomber. Every KR player would label him and MKP (iirc) as ladder gods, yet Bomber needed so much time to qualify.
MMA managing to hang on with Mvp (and Polt with his Super Tournament win) were a big deal back then, it was no small feat. The competition was fierce despite kespa not switching yet
I mean random masters player have a fundamentally much better understanding on how to play Starcraft than any GSL players (bar MVP/Nestea) in 2010. However, they would unquestionably lose to a lot of all-ins without specific practice in on the match/patch etc.
However, I think you do underestimate just how "stupid" players were back then. Terrans didn't even realize that opening hellions in TvZ were a must. This was pre-queen range buff. Queens had 3 range, they couldn't do anything. Hellions were insanely overpowered early TvZ. It took until mid 2011 before reactor first hellion (before expo) became the standard. Before that, terrans would still do terrible 1base all ins or other random cheeses.
If I could teleport myself back - with a few weeks of practice on the maps/patch - I put myself as one of the favorites to win any of the first 3 GSL seasons - even though my APM is much lower than the top competitors.
WoL was a much less mechanical demanding game than Sc2 today and terran was incredibly imbalanced in 2010. As long as you have a solid build, how do you even lose on maps like Lost Temple and Steppes of War as terran with like 150 effective APM and a solid understanding of the game + builds? At least TvZ should be unloseable. TvP, yes you do need some decent ghost/viking control to win late game, but protosses back then were terrible as well (bar MC).
But if you know how to do a fast 1base gasless expo in TvP (which is safe if you know how to do it right), you get a massive econ advantage in every TvP, and I think you win as well with 150 EAPM against everyone in that matchup.
Anyway, that's an offtopic. My original point was that every terran in 2010 had no clue what they were doing, didn't understand Starcraft fundamentals at all. MVP was the only one one in early Starcraft who demonstrated how to think about playing terran. Although in 2010 he was still somewhat raw. And I think he gets as little too praise for speeding up the learnings of all terrans in early WoL.
I know Jinro got praised a lot for being one of the only "macro terrans" in early WoL, but his macro-gameplay was weird and kind of "cheesy". Jinro relied massively on build-order-surprises to get ahead early in order to play an "imo" inefficienct macrotype of gameplay.
I’m still working on my time machine so hopefully someone can settle this once and for all!
Agreed, you could say the same about Idra too. Certainly a macro player, but it was kind of all he did and he was a bit vulnerable to certain styles. Where for Mvp it was eventually a resilient platform where he could execute a lot of gameplans from.
Idra may well have been the best Sc2 player in the first few months post release and late beta. However, he had a completely wrong mentality for how to think about Starcraft, and I am not just thinking about early GG timing.
His mentality was "I need to defend, build an army, and then attack and then I should win". Whereas execution of micro and how to trade, or even how to accurately time your attack.
So while MVP early on was a bit "raw" but had the correct idea on how to play the game, Idra wasn't raw early Sc2, but was mechanically vastly better than almost everyone else and knew the basics of the game better than other of the better BW players who switched. However, he gradually got worse as he never really "understood" how to win games after everyone learned the basics.
I also think 2012-zerg era mased how bad he had become at that point in time. Without zerg being so OP in that era he would likely have retired earlier.
Idra’s problem was he had a pre-conceived notion of how the game was meant to be ‘correctly’ played. Which was more abstract and theoretical.
Mvp played what he saw or developed ultimately.
Idra was an incredibly talented player, with a crippling psychological flaw (honestly one I 100% share, albeit elsewhere) where he liked certainty, if I do x, y should be the result. Which made him a pretty damn inflexible player.
Idra was in ways actually right to GG to MMA that time, realistically if MMA hadn’t actually killed his CC, which is so unlikely that there’s few comparable examples throughout SC2 history.
I saw an interview catchup recently with him and was quite happy to see he’s doing well, seems way more chilled and in a field (pun intended) that suits him. Happy to see it, I think trying to compete in a brutally competitive game just didn’t dovetail all that well with his personality.
Of all the pros I had any interactions with at Dreamhack Winter 2011, and sharing a smoke break with my all-time favourite HerO of the Liquid variety was nice, the Grack was probably the most engaging, interesting guy to talk to.
Mvp was the most high-profile Brood War player to switch games at that point, being the only regular Proleague rotation player to make the leap. Considering that reputation, his first tournament was a disappointment as he finished in the RO32 of the 64-player tournament. Open Season 3 was similarly unremarkable, though Mvp improved slightly for an RO16 finish (most notably beating IdrA on the way).
His results were unremarkable. But I argue if you look at his gameplay he looked far far better than anyone else in 2010.
Watch Open Season 2 and how he plays TvZ in contrast to how terrans otherwise played Sc2. His style of gameplay was more similar to how it was played in 2011 whereas other terrans opened 1base Nukedrops (marineking) or BC rushes.
He knew how to play bio and macroplay such as splitting bio which he was the first one to demonstrate on the stage (although marineking popularized it).
However, he was definitely quite vulnerable to all-ins in 2010 as he hadn't quite nailed all parts of the game. But fundamentally speaking he was by far the best terran player in the early stage of Sc2.
The reason I rank him so highly is that almost noone in the first year of Sc2 understood how to play the game. MVP did and paved the way for a lot of terran playersr.
Even how to think about mixing builds together. If you wanna go for an early-in, your initial part of the build need to look similar to how you play the stand macro game. Similarly if you wanna greed, it needs to look similarly on the outside to how you play a solid game. MVP was the only terran player who understood that concept for the first 1½ year of WOL.
Mvp losing to all-ins and stuff despite being able to play macro games better than most players at the time is why it’s so funny when people think random masters of today would be able to win the GSLs from WoL. Sure, current top players would have a shot. Random low GMs might get extremely lucky but ultimately having learned to play LotV with bazillion QoL changes, free 2nd base and barely any real potent 1 base threat is not enough to just go back in time and win an open season. The most exciting thing about GSL back then was the « hidden » monsters like Bomber. Every KR player would label him and MKP (iirc) as ladder gods, yet Bomber needed so much time to qualify.
MMA managing to hang on with Mvp (and Polt with his Super Tournament win) were a big deal back then, it was no small feat. The competition was fierce despite kespa not switching yet
I mean random masters player have a fundamentally much better understanding on how to play Starcraft than any GSL players (bar MVP/Nestea) in 2010. However, they would unquestionably lose to a lot of all-ins without specific practice in on the match/patch etc.
However, I think you do underestimate just how "stupid" players were back then. Terrans didn't even realize that opening hellions in TvZ were a must. This was pre-queen range buff. Queens had 3 range, they couldn't do anything. Hellions were insanely overpowered early TvZ. It took until mid 2011 before reactor first hellion (before expo) became the standard. Before that, terrans would still do terrible 1base all ins or other random cheeses.
If I could teleport myself back - with a few weeks of practice on the maps/patch - I put myself as one of the favorites to win any of the first 3 GSL seasons - even though my APM is much lower than the top competitors.
WoL was a much less mechanical demanding game than Sc2 today and terran was incredibly imbalanced in 2010. As long as you have a solid build, how do you even lose on maps like Lost Temple and Steppes of War as terran with like 150 effective APM and a solid understanding of the game + builds? At least TvZ should be unloseable. TvP, yes you do need some decent ghost/viking control to win late game, but protosses back then were terrible as well (bar MC).
But if you know how to do a fast 1base gasless expo in TvP (which is safe if you know how to do it right), you get a massive econ advantage in every TvP, and I think you win as well with 150 EAPM against everyone in that matchup.
Anyway, that's an offtopic. My original point was that every terran in 2010 had no clue what they were doing, didn't understand Starcraft fundamentals at all. MVP was the only one one in early Starcraft who demonstrated how to think about playing terran. Although in 2010 he was still somewhat raw. And I think he gets as little too praise for speeding up the learnings of all terrans in early WoL.
I know Jinro got praised a lot for being one of the only "macro terrans" in early WoL, but his macro-gameplay was weird and kind of "cheesy". Jinro relied massively on build-order-surprises to get ahead early in order to play an "imo" inefficienct macrotype of gameplay.
I’m still working on my time machine so hopefully someone can settle this once and for all!
Agreed, you could say the same about Idra too. Certainly a macro player, but it was kind of all he did and he was a bit vulnerable to certain styles. Where for Mvp it was eventually a resilient platform where he could execute a lot of gameplans from.
Idra may well have been the best Sc2 player in the first few months post release and late beta. However, he had a completely wrong mentality for how to think about Starcraft, and I am not just thinking about early GG timing.
His mentality was "I need to defend, build an army, and then attack and then I should win". Whereas execution of micro and how to trade, or even how to accurately time your attack.
So while MVP early on was a bit "raw" but had the correct idea on how to play the game, Idra wasn't raw early Sc2, but was mechanically vastly better than almost everyone else and knew the basics of the game better than other of the better BW players who switched. However, he gradually got worse as he never really "understood" how to win games after everyone learned the basics.
I also think 2012-zerg era mased how bad he had become at that point in time. Without zerg being so OP in that era he would likely have retired earlier.
Idra’s problem was he had a pre-conceived notion of how the game was meant to be ‘correctly’ played. Which was more abstract and theoretical.
Mvp played what he saw or developed ultimately.
Idra was an incredibly talented player, with a crippling psychological flaw (honestly one I 100% share, albeit elsewhere) where he liked certainty, if I do x, y should be the result. Which made him a pretty damn inflexible player.
Idra was in ways actually right to GG to MMA that time, realistically if MMA hadn’t actually killed his CC, which is so unlikely that there’s few comparable examples throughout SC2 history.
I saw an interview catchup recently with him and was quite happy to see he’s doing well, seems way more chilled and in a field (pun intended) that suits him. Happy to see it, I think trying to compete in a brutally competitive game just didn’t dovetail all that well with his personality.
Of all the pros I had any interactions with at Dreamhack Winter 2011, and sharing a smoke break with my all-time favourite HerO of the Liquid variety was nice, the Grack was probably the most engaging, interesting guy to talk to.
Cool, do you remember where you saw that video? I was and still am a bit of a Gracken fanboy.
I agree with your and Hider's analysis of Idra's mindset, though. I also think that he simply was not as good as he thought he was in several areas of the game. For example, his late-game army control was comparatively weak even at the time, and it was clear that he believed that once he had survived until the lategame, he just deserved to win, with him frequently a-moving too bluntly.
But it must be added that the effects of Idra's mindset were exacerbated by the fact that zerg was severely underpowered a good part of the time when he was most active. As Hider has pointed out, the irony of the situation was that terran in the early years of WoL could win in TvZ with a great range of hard-to-scout and deadly cheeses and all-ins, but in actuality terran was also perfectly viable in the lategame, as MVP and others have shown. So zergs were often in the situation of having had to avoid a series of potential insta-losses only to enter into an even fight.
Mvp was the most high-profile Brood War player to switch games at that point, being the only regular Proleague rotation player to make the leap. Considering that reputation, his first tournament was a disappointment as he finished in the RO32 of the 64-player tournament. Open Season 3 was similarly unremarkable, though Mvp improved slightly for an RO16 finish (most notably beating IdrA on the way).
His results were unremarkable. But I argue if you look at his gameplay he looked far far better than anyone else in 2010.
Watch Open Season 2 and how he plays TvZ in contrast to how terrans otherwise played Sc2. His style of gameplay was more similar to how it was played in 2011 whereas other terrans opened 1base Nukedrops (marineking) or BC rushes.
He knew how to play bio and macroplay such as splitting bio which he was the first one to demonstrate on the stage (although marineking popularized it).
However, he was definitely quite vulnerable to all-ins in 2010 as he hadn't quite nailed all parts of the game. But fundamentally speaking he was by far the best terran player in the early stage of Sc2.
The reason I rank him so highly is that almost noone in the first year of Sc2 understood how to play the game. MVP did and paved the way for a lot of terran playersr.
Even how to think about mixing builds together. If you wanna go for an early-in, your initial part of the build need to look similar to how you play the stand macro game. Similarly if you wanna greed, it needs to look similarly on the outside to how you play a solid game. MVP was the only terran player who understood that concept for the first 1½ year of WOL.
Mvp losing to all-ins and stuff despite being able to play macro games better than most players at the time is why it’s so funny when people think random masters of today would be able to win the GSLs from WoL. Sure, current top players would have a shot. Random low GMs might get extremely lucky but ultimately having learned to play LotV with bazillion QoL changes, free 2nd base and barely any real potent 1 base threat is not enough to just go back in time and win an open season. The most exciting thing about GSL back then was the « hidden » monsters like Bomber. Every KR player would label him and MKP (iirc) as ladder gods, yet Bomber needed so much time to qualify.
MMA managing to hang on with Mvp (and Polt with his Super Tournament win) were a big deal back then, it was no small feat. The competition was fierce despite kespa not switching yet
I mean random masters player have a fundamentally much better understanding on how to play Starcraft than any GSL players (bar MVP/Nestea) in 2010. However, they would unquestionably lose to a lot of all-ins without specific practice in on the match/patch etc.
However, I think you do underestimate just how "stupid" players were back then. Terrans didn't even realize that opening hellions in TvZ were a must. This was pre-queen range buff. Queens had 3 range, they couldn't do anything. Hellions were insanely overpowered early TvZ. It took until mid 2011 before reactor first hellion (before expo) became the standard. Before that, terrans would still do terrible 1base all ins or other random cheeses.
If I could teleport myself back - with a few weeks of practice on the maps/patch - I put myself as one of the favorites to win any of the first 3 GSL seasons - even though my APM is much lower than the top competitors.
WoL was a much less mechanical demanding game than Sc2 today and terran was incredibly imbalanced in 2010. As long as you have a solid build, how do you even lose on maps like Lost Temple and Steppes of War as terran with like 150 effective APM and a solid understanding of the game + builds? At least TvZ should be unloseable. TvP, yes you do need some decent ghost/viking control to win late game, but protosses back then were terrible as well (bar MC).
But if you know how to do a fast 1base gasless expo in TvP (which is safe if you know how to do it right), you get a massive econ advantage in every TvP, and I think you win as well with 150 EAPM against everyone in that matchup.
Anyway, that's an offtopic. My original point was that every terran in 2010 had no clue what they were doing, didn't understand Starcraft fundamentals at all. MVP was the only one one in early Starcraft who demonstrated how to think about playing terran. Although in 2010 he was still somewhat raw. And I think he gets as little too praise for speeding up the learnings of all terrans in early WoL.
I know Jinro got praised a lot for being one of the only "macro terrans" in early WoL, but his macro-gameplay was weird and kind of "cheesy". Jinro relied massively on build-order-surprises to get ahead early in order to play an "imo" inefficienct macrotype of gameplay.
I’m still working on my time machine so hopefully someone can settle this once and for all!
Agreed, you could say the same about Idra too. Certainly a macro player, but it was kind of all he did and he was a bit vulnerable to certain styles. Where for Mvp it was eventually a resilient platform where he could execute a lot of gameplans from.
Idra may well have been the best Sc2 player in the first few months post release and late beta. However, he had a completely wrong mentality for how to think about Starcraft, and I am not just thinking about early GG timing.
His mentality was "I need to defend, build an army, and then attack and then I should win". Whereas execution of micro and how to trade, or even how to accurately time your attack.
So while MVP early on was a bit "raw" but had the correct idea on how to play the game, Idra wasn't raw early Sc2, but was mechanically vastly better than almost everyone else and knew the basics of the game better than other of the better BW players who switched. However, he gradually got worse as he never really "understood" how to win games after everyone learned the basics.
I also think 2012-zerg era mased how bad he had become at that point in time. Without zerg being so OP in that era he would likely have retired earlier.
Idra’s problem was he had a pre-conceived notion of how the game was meant to be ‘correctly’ played. Which was more abstract and theoretical.
Mvp played what he saw or developed ultimately.
Idra was an incredibly talented player, with a crippling psychological flaw (honestly one I 100% share, albeit elsewhere) where he liked certainty, if I do x, y should be the result. Which made him a pretty damn inflexible player.
Idra was in ways actually right to GG to MMA that time, realistically if MMA hadn’t actually killed his CC, which is so unlikely that there’s few comparable examples throughout SC2 history.
I saw an interview catchup recently with him and was quite happy to see he’s doing well, seems way more chilled and in a field (pun intended) that suits him. Happy to see it, I think trying to compete in a brutally competitive game just didn’t dovetail all that well with his personality.
Of all the pros I had any interactions with at Dreamhack Winter 2011, and sharing a smoke break with my all-time favourite HerO of the Liquid variety was nice, the Grack was probably the most engaging, interesting guy to talk to.
Cool, do you remember where you saw that video? I was and still am a bit of a Gracken fanboy.
I agree with your and Hider's analysis of Idra's mindset, though. I also think that he simply was not as good as he thought he was in several areas of the game. For example, his late-game army control was comparatively weak even at the time, and it was clear that he believed that once he had survived until the lategame, he just deserved to win, with him frequently a-moving too bluntly.
But it must be added that the effects of Idra's mindset were exacerbated by the fact that zerg was severely underpowered a good part of the time when he was most active. As Hider has pointed out, the irony of the situation was that terran in the early years of WoL could win in TvZ with a great range of hard-to-scout and deadly cheeses and all-ins, but in actuality terran was also perfectly viable in the lategame, as MVP and others have shown. So zergs were often in the situation of having had to avoid a series of potential insta-losses only to enter into an even fight.
I can’t recall where I saw it, merely that I know it exists!
There’s a State of the Game where he does make a rather good point. Either Zerg has to have good scouting options, or be able to play relatively blindly and be safe. You don’t need both, but you need 1, and that was a blooming good point. One of those two things has to be true for the reactive/defensive macro race to work properly.
I think a player of Idra’s skill set, ideas about the game etc would have been way more prosperous in later day SC2 than when he was actually playing
Mvp was the most high-profile Brood War player to switch games at that point, being the only regular Proleague rotation player to make the leap. Considering that reputation, his first tournament was a disappointment as he finished in the RO32 of the 64-player tournament. Open Season 3 was similarly unremarkable, though Mvp improved slightly for an RO16 finish (most notably beating IdrA on the way).
His results were unremarkable. But I argue if you look at his gameplay he looked far far better than anyone else in 2010.
Watch Open Season 2 and how he plays TvZ in contrast to how terrans otherwise played Sc2. His style of gameplay was more similar to how it was played in 2011 whereas other terrans opened 1base Nukedrops (marineking) or BC rushes.
He knew how to play bio and macroplay such as splitting bio which he was the first one to demonstrate on the stage (although marineking popularized it).
However, he was definitely quite vulnerable to all-ins in 2010 as he hadn't quite nailed all parts of the game. But fundamentally speaking he was by far the best terran player in the early stage of Sc2.
The reason I rank him so highly is that almost noone in the first year of Sc2 understood how to play the game. MVP did and paved the way for a lot of terran playersr.
Even how to think about mixing builds together. If you wanna go for an early-in, your initial part of the build need to look similar to how you play the stand macro game. Similarly if you wanna greed, it needs to look similarly on the outside to how you play a solid game. MVP was the only terran player who understood that concept for the first 1½ year of WOL.
Mvp losing to all-ins and stuff despite being able to play macro games better than most players at the time is why it’s so funny when people think random masters of today would be able to win the GSLs from WoL. Sure, current top players would have a shot. Random low GMs might get extremely lucky but ultimately having learned to play LotV with bazillion QoL changes, free 2nd base and barely any real potent 1 base threat is not enough to just go back in time and win an open season. The most exciting thing about GSL back then was the « hidden » monsters like Bomber. Every KR player would label him and MKP (iirc) as ladder gods, yet Bomber needed so much time to qualify.
MMA managing to hang on with Mvp (and Polt with his Super Tournament win) were a big deal back then, it was no small feat. The competition was fierce despite kespa not switching yet
I mean random masters player have a fundamentally much better understanding on how to play Starcraft than any GSL players (bar MVP/Nestea) in 2010. However, they would unquestionably lose to a lot of all-ins without specific practice in on the match/patch etc.
However, I think you do underestimate just how "stupid" players were back then. Terrans didn't even realize that opening hellions in TvZ were a must. This was pre-queen range buff. Queens had 3 range, they couldn't do anything. Hellions were insanely overpowered early TvZ. It took until mid 2011 before reactor first hellion (before expo) became the standard. Before that, terrans would still do terrible 1base all ins or other random cheeses.
If I could teleport myself back - with a few weeks of practice on the maps/patch - I put myself as one of the favorites to win any of the first 3 GSL seasons - even though my APM is much lower than the top competitors.
WoL was a much less mechanical demanding game than Sc2 today and terran was incredibly imbalanced in 2010. As long as you have a solid build, how do you even lose on maps like Lost Temple and Steppes of War as terran with like 150 effective APM and a solid understanding of the game + builds? At least TvZ should be unloseable. TvP, yes you do need some decent ghost/viking control to win late game, but protosses back then were terrible as well (bar MC).
But if you know how to do a fast 1base gasless expo in TvP (which is safe if you know how to do it right), you get a massive econ advantage in every TvP, and I think you win as well with 150 EAPM against everyone in that matchup.
Anyway, that's an offtopic. My original point was that every terran in 2010 had no clue what they were doing, didn't understand Starcraft fundamentals at all. MVP was the only one one in early Starcraft who demonstrated how to think about playing terran. Although in 2010 he was still somewhat raw. And I think he gets as little too praise for speeding up the learnings of all terrans in early WoL.
I know Jinro got praised a lot for being one of the only "macro terrans" in early WoL, but his macro-gameplay was weird and kind of "cheesy". Jinro relied massively on build-order-surprises to get ahead early in order to play an "imo" inefficienct macrotype of gameplay.
I’m still working on my time machine so hopefully someone can settle this once and for all!
Agreed, you could say the same about Idra too. Certainly a macro player, but it was kind of all he did and he was a bit vulnerable to certain styles. Where for Mvp it was eventually a resilient platform where he could execute a lot of gameplans from.
Idra may well have been the best Sc2 player in the first few months post release and late beta. However, he had a completely wrong mentality for how to think about Starcraft, and I am not just thinking about early GG timing.
His mentality was "I need to defend, build an army, and then attack and then I should win". Whereas execution of micro and how to trade, or even how to accurately time your attack.
So while MVP early on was a bit "raw" but had the correct idea on how to play the game, Idra wasn't raw early Sc2, but was mechanically vastly better than almost everyone else and knew the basics of the game better than other of the better BW players who switched. However, he gradually got worse as he never really "understood" how to win games after everyone learned the basics.
I also think 2012-zerg era mased how bad he had become at that point in time. Without zerg being so OP in that era he would likely have retired earlier.
Idra’s problem was he had a pre-conceived notion of how the game was meant to be ‘correctly’ played. Which was more abstract and theoretical.
Mvp played what he saw or developed ultimately.
Idra was an incredibly talented player, with a crippling psychological flaw (honestly one I 100% share, albeit elsewhere) where he liked certainty, if I do x, y should be the result. Which made him a pretty damn inflexible player.
Idra was in ways actually right to GG to MMA that time, realistically if MMA hadn’t actually killed his CC, which is so unlikely that there’s few comparable examples throughout SC2 history.
I saw an interview catchup recently with him and was quite happy to see he’s doing well, seems way more chilled and in a field (pun intended) that suits him. Happy to see it, I think trying to compete in a brutally competitive game just didn’t dovetail all that well with his personality.
Of all the pros I had any interactions with at Dreamhack Winter 2011, and sharing a smoke break with my all-time favourite HerO of the Liquid variety was nice, the Grack was probably the most engaging, interesting guy to talk to.
It's interesting how everyone who knew the gracken said he had a vastly different in-person vs online persona. I can relate, always been really mild-mannered IRL, but man did I used to rage and tilt hard back in the day. I used to rationalize it like it was only because I cared so much, but it wound up being a big hindrance to actual improvement. In hindsight, being an IdrA fan probably reinforced my bad habits.
Mvp was the most high-profile Brood War player to switch games at that point, being the only regular Proleague rotation player to make the leap. Considering that reputation, his first tournament was a disappointment as he finished in the RO32 of the 64-player tournament. Open Season 3 was similarly unremarkable, though Mvp improved slightly for an RO16 finish (most notably beating IdrA on the way).
His results were unremarkable. But I argue if you look at his gameplay he looked far far better than anyone else in 2010.
Watch Open Season 2 and how he plays TvZ in contrast to how terrans otherwise played Sc2. His style of gameplay was more similar to how it was played in 2011 whereas other terrans opened 1base Nukedrops (marineking) or BC rushes.
He knew how to play bio and macroplay such as splitting bio which he was the first one to demonstrate on the stage (although marineking popularized it).
However, he was definitely quite vulnerable to all-ins in 2010 as he hadn't quite nailed all parts of the game. But fundamentally speaking he was by far the best terran player in the early stage of Sc2.
The reason I rank him so highly is that almost noone in the first year of Sc2 understood how to play the game. MVP did and paved the way for a lot of terran playersr.
Even how to think about mixing builds together. If you wanna go for an early-in, your initial part of the build need to look similar to how you play the stand macro game. Similarly if you wanna greed, it needs to look similarly on the outside to how you play a solid game. MVP was the only terran player who understood that concept for the first 1½ year of WOL.
Mvp losing to all-ins and stuff despite being able to play macro games better than most players at the time is why it’s so funny when people think random masters of today would be able to win the GSLs from WoL. Sure, current top players would have a shot. Random low GMs might get extremely lucky but ultimately having learned to play LotV with bazillion QoL changes, free 2nd base and barely any real potent 1 base threat is not enough to just go back in time and win an open season. The most exciting thing about GSL back then was the « hidden » monsters like Bomber. Every KR player would label him and MKP (iirc) as ladder gods, yet Bomber needed so much time to qualify.
MMA managing to hang on with Mvp (and Polt with his Super Tournament win) were a big deal back then, it was no small feat. The competition was fierce despite kespa not switching yet
I've probably seen a thousand different cheeses during WoL on the Korean ladder. A lot of them have been capable to take a game away from you in a bo3 qualifier if not properly scouted. It was a slugfest compared to todays macro heaven. And trust me, you do not want to pick a fight with a random Korean GM in low eco-micro wars. You will lose.
I think the major problem (from terran perspective) is that they simply didn't know how to play safe. However, early-mid-2011 it got pretty obvious how terrans were supposed to get safely into macro games. But 2010 terrans didn't know that and aside from Blistering Sands - it imo had nothing to with the map-pool but rather a lack of understanding of the basics.
I think the bigger problem is that terrans back then had the idea that the race was bad late game and was "supposed to cheese/all-in". So that was the entire focus of the race. Plus winning games by doing early allins as opposed to properly learning how to play macro was harder so players were rewarded short-term for not properly learning the game.
That's why MVP stood out so much in open season 2 and season 3 (from the eye test) despite his results not being that great, because he actually wanted to properly play the game.
As an example of terrible terran openers in 2010. 1 base nuke drop. And on map 2 we open Maurauders vs zerg (???). This was a finalist btw.
Mvp was the most high-profile Brood War player to switch games at that point, being the only regular Proleague rotation player to make the leap. Considering that reputation, his first tournament was a disappointment as he finished in the RO32 of the 64-player tournament. Open Season 3 was similarly unremarkable, though Mvp improved slightly for an RO16 finish (most notably beating IdrA on the way).
His results were unremarkable. But I argue if you look at his gameplay he looked far far better than anyone else in 2010.
Watch Open Season 2 and how he plays TvZ in contrast to how terrans otherwise played Sc2. His style of gameplay was more similar to how it was played in 2011 whereas other terrans opened 1base Nukedrops (marineking) or BC rushes.
He knew how to play bio and macroplay such as splitting bio which he was the first one to demonstrate on the stage (although marineking popularized it).
However, he was definitely quite vulnerable to all-ins in 2010 as he hadn't quite nailed all parts of the game. But fundamentally speaking he was by far the best terran player in the early stage of Sc2.
The reason I rank him so highly is that almost noone in the first year of Sc2 understood how to play the game. MVP did and paved the way for a lot of terran playersr.
Even how to think about mixing builds together. If you wanna go for an early-in, your initial part of the build need to look similar to how you play the stand macro game. Similarly if you wanna greed, it needs to look similarly on the outside to how you play a solid game. MVP was the only terran player who understood that concept for the first 1½ year of WOL.
Mvp losing to all-ins and stuff despite being able to play macro games better than most players at the time is why it’s so funny when people think random masters of today would be able to win the GSLs from WoL. Sure, current top players would have a shot. Random low GMs might get extremely lucky but ultimately having learned to play LotV with bazillion QoL changes, free 2nd base and barely any real potent 1 base threat is not enough to just go back in time and win an open season. The most exciting thing about GSL back then was the « hidden » monsters like Bomber. Every KR player would label him and MKP (iirc) as ladder gods, yet Bomber needed so much time to qualify.
MMA managing to hang on with Mvp (and Polt with his Super Tournament win) were a big deal back then, it was no small feat. The competition was fierce despite kespa not switching yet
I've probably seen a thousand different cheeses during WoL on the Korean ladder. A lot of them have been capable to take a game away from you in a bo3 qualifier if not properly scouted. It was a slugfest compared to todays macro heaven. And trust me, you do not want to pick a fight with a random Korean GM in low eco-micro wars. You will lose.
I think the major problem (from terran perspective) is that they simply didn't know how to play safe. However, early-mid-2011 it got pretty obvious how terrans were supposed to get safely into macro games. But 2010 terrans didn't know that and aside from Blistering Sands - it imo had nothing to with the map-pool but rather a lack of understanding of the basics.
I think the bigger problem is that terrans back then had the idea that the race was bad late game and was "supposed to cheese/all-in". So that was the entire focus of the race. Plus winning games by doing early allins as opposed to properly learning how to play macro was harder so players were rewarded short-term for not properly learning the game.
That's why MVP stood out so much in open season 2 and season 3 (from the eye test) despite his results not being that great, because he actually wanted to properly play the game.
As an example of terrible terran openers in 2010. 1 base nuke drop. And on map 2 we open Maurauders vs zerg (???). This was a finalist btw.
Those games were so bad it’s quite entertaining. It’s like watching current platium players playing each other
The one thing I worry about in these theories is that they don't take APM into account. I'm a washed up 280 apm Zerg, but soO can play terran at 400 apm. You'd have a huge strategy advantage and that might be too much to overcome, but I wonder if our present selves would be hindered by people moving their cameras quickly.
Mvp was the most high-profile Brood War player to switch games at that point, being the only regular Proleague rotation player to make the leap. Considering that reputation, his first tournament was a disappointment as he finished in the RO32 of the 64-player tournament. Open Season 3 was similarly unremarkable, though Mvp improved slightly for an RO16 finish (most notably beating IdrA on the way).
His results were unremarkable. But I argue if you look at his gameplay he looked far far better than anyone else in 2010.
Watch Open Season 2 and how he plays TvZ in contrast to how terrans otherwise played Sc2. His style of gameplay was more similar to how it was played in 2011 whereas other terrans opened 1base Nukedrops (marineking) or BC rushes.
He knew how to play bio and macroplay such as splitting bio which he was the first one to demonstrate on the stage (although marineking popularized it).
However, he was definitely quite vulnerable to all-ins in 2010 as he hadn't quite nailed all parts of the game. But fundamentally speaking he was by far the best terran player in the early stage of Sc2.
The reason I rank him so highly is that almost noone in the first year of Sc2 understood how to play the game. MVP did and paved the way for a lot of terran playersr.
Even how to think about mixing builds together. If you wanna go for an early-in, your initial part of the build need to look similar to how you play the stand macro game. Similarly if you wanna greed, it needs to look similarly on the outside to how you play a solid game. MVP was the only terran player who understood that concept for the first 1½ year of WOL.
Mvp losing to all-ins and stuff despite being able to play macro games better than most players at the time is why it’s so funny when people think random masters of today would be able to win the GSLs from WoL. Sure, current top players would have a shot. Random low GMs might get extremely lucky but ultimately having learned to play LotV with bazillion QoL changes, free 2nd base and barely any real potent 1 base threat is not enough to just go back in time and win an open season. The most exciting thing about GSL back then was the « hidden » monsters like Bomber. Every KR player would label him and MKP (iirc) as ladder gods, yet Bomber needed so much time to qualify.
MMA managing to hang on with Mvp (and Polt with his Super Tournament win) were a big deal back then, it was no small feat. The competition was fierce despite kespa not switching yet
I mean random masters player have a fundamentally much better understanding on how to play Starcraft than any GSL players (bar MVP/Nestea) in 2010. However, they would unquestionably lose to a lot of all-ins without specific practice in on the match/patch etc.
However, I think you do underestimate just how "stupid" players were back then. Terrans didn't even realize that opening hellions in TvZ were a must. This was pre-queen range buff. Queens had 3 range, they couldn't do anything. Hellions were insanely overpowered early TvZ. It took until mid 2011 before reactor first hellion (before expo) became the standard. Before that, terrans would still do terrible 1base all ins or other random cheeses.
If I could teleport myself back - with a few weeks of practice on the maps/patch - I put myself as one of the favorites to win any of the first 3 GSL seasons - even though my APM is much lower than the top competitors.
WoL was a much less mechanical demanding game than Sc2 today and terran was incredibly imbalanced in 2010. As long as you have a solid build, how do you even lose on maps like Lost Temple and Steppes of War as terran with like 150 effective APM and a solid understanding of the game + builds? At least TvZ should be unloseable. TvP, yes you do need some decent ghost/viking control to win late game, but protosses back then were terrible as well (bar MC).
But if you know how to do a fast 1base gasless expo in TvP (which is safe if you know how to do it right), you get a massive econ advantage in every TvP, and I think you win as well with 150 EAPM against everyone in that matchup.
Anyway, that's an offtopic. My original point was that every terran in 2010 had no clue what they were doing, didn't understand Starcraft fundamentals at all. MVP was the only one one in early Starcraft who demonstrated how to think about playing terran. Although in 2010 he was still somewhat raw. And I think he gets as little too praise for speeding up the learnings of all terrans in early WoL.
I know Jinro got praised a lot for being one of the only "macro terrans" in early WoL, but his macro-gameplay was weird and kind of "cheesy". Jinro relied massively on build-order-surprises to get ahead early in order to play an "imo" inefficienct macrotype of gameplay.
I’m still working on my time machine so hopefully someone can settle this once and for all!
Agreed, you could say the same about Idra too. Certainly a macro player, but it was kind of all he did and he was a bit vulnerable to certain styles. Where for Mvp it was eventually a resilient platform where he could execute a lot of gameplans from.
Idra may well have been the best Sc2 player in the first few months post release and late beta. However, he had a completely wrong mentality for how to think about Starcraft, and I am not just thinking about early GG timing.
His mentality was "I need to defend, build an army, and then attack and then I should win". Whereas execution of micro and how to trade, or even how to accurately time your attack.
So while MVP early on was a bit "raw" but had the correct idea on how to play the game, Idra wasn't raw early Sc2, but was mechanically vastly better than almost everyone else and knew the basics of the game better than other of the better BW players who switched. However, he gradually got worse as he never really "understood" how to win games after everyone learned the basics.
I also think 2012-zerg era mased how bad he had become at that point in time. Without zerg being so OP in that era he would likely have retired earlier.
Idra’s problem was he had a pre-conceived notion of how the game was meant to be ‘correctly’ played. Which was more abstract and theoretical.
Mvp played what he saw or developed ultimately.
Idra was an incredibly talented player, with a crippling psychological flaw (honestly one I 100% share, albeit elsewhere) where he liked certainty, if I do x, y should be the result. Which made him a pretty damn inflexible player.
Idra was in ways actually right to GG to MMA that time, realistically if MMA hadn’t actually killed his CC, which is so unlikely that there’s few comparable examples throughout SC2 history.
I saw an interview catchup recently with him and was quite happy to see he’s doing well, seems way more chilled and in a field (pun intended) that suits him. Happy to see it, I think trying to compete in a brutally competitive game just didn’t dovetail all that well with his personality.
Of all the pros I had any interactions with at Dreamhack Winter 2011, and sharing a smoke break with my all-time favourite HerO of the Liquid variety was nice, the Grack was probably the most engaging, interesting guy to talk to.
Cool, do you remember where you saw that video? I was and still am a bit of a Gracken fanboy.
I agree with your and Hider's analysis of Idra's mindset, though. I also think that he simply was not as good as he thought he was in several areas of the game. For example, his late-game army control was comparatively weak even at the time, and it was clear that he believed that once he had survived until the lategame, he just deserved to win, with him frequently a-moving too bluntly.
But it must be added that the effects of Idra's mindset were exacerbated by the fact that zerg was severely underpowered a good part of the time when he was most active. As Hider has pointed out, the irony of the situation was that terran in the early years of WoL could win in TvZ with a great range of hard-to-scout and deadly cheeses and all-ins, but in actuality terran was also perfectly viable in the lategame, as MVP and others have shown. So zergs were often in the situation of having had to avoid a series of potential insta-losses only to enter into an even fight.
I can’t recall where I saw it, merely that I know it exists!
There’s a State of the Game where he does make a rather good point. Either Zerg has to have good scouting options, or be able to play relatively blindly and be safe. You don’t need both, but you need 1, and that was a blooming good point. One of those two things has to be true for the reactive/defensive macro race to work properly.
I think a player of Idra’s skill set, ideas about the game etc would have been way more prosperous in later day SC2 than when he was actually playing
With queens and overlord pillars, Zerg basically has had both for years!
I do miss all the weird all-ins of early SC2 (not just early WOL, even in HOTS it felt like there was more room for creative all ins.) Then again, a lot of openings were killed by the 12 worker start, and in retrospect the 6 worker start felt like a waste of time in 90% of games. Also don't want players dying to hard to scout builds all the time... I do feel like the game has become too macro-oriented in most match-ups when neither player messes up (ZvZ and PvP are big exceptions to that trend.) Striking the right balance between short and long games is difficult in practice though, and having too many long games is an improvement over too many short games/build order wins.
Mvp was the most high-profile Brood War player to switch games at that point, being the only regular Proleague rotation player to make the leap. Considering that reputation, his first tournament was a disappointment as he finished in the RO32 of the 64-player tournament. Open Season 3 was similarly unremarkable, though Mvp improved slightly for an RO16 finish (most notably beating IdrA on the way).
His results were unremarkable. But I argue if you look at his gameplay he looked far far better than anyone else in 2010.
Watch Open Season 2 and how he plays TvZ in contrast to how terrans otherwise played Sc2. His style of gameplay was more similar to how it was played in 2011 whereas other terrans opened 1base Nukedrops (marineking) or BC rushes.
He knew how to play bio and macroplay such as splitting bio which he was the first one to demonstrate on the stage (although marineking popularized it).
However, he was definitely quite vulnerable to all-ins in 2010 as he hadn't quite nailed all parts of the game. But fundamentally speaking he was by far the best terran player in the early stage of Sc2.
The reason I rank him so highly is that almost noone in the first year of Sc2 understood how to play the game. MVP did and paved the way for a lot of terran playersr.
Even how to think about mixing builds together. If you wanna go for an early-in, your initial part of the build need to look similar to how you play the stand macro game. Similarly if you wanna greed, it needs to look similarly on the outside to how you play a solid game. MVP was the only terran player who understood that concept for the first 1½ year of WOL.
Mvp losing to all-ins and stuff despite being able to play macro games better than most players at the time is why it’s so funny when people think random masters of today would be able to win the GSLs from WoL. Sure, current top players would have a shot. Random low GMs might get extremely lucky but ultimately having learned to play LotV with bazillion QoL changes, free 2nd base and barely any real potent 1 base threat is not enough to just go back in time and win an open season. The most exciting thing about GSL back then was the « hidden » monsters like Bomber. Every KR player would label him and MKP (iirc) as ladder gods, yet Bomber needed so much time to qualify.
MMA managing to hang on with Mvp (and Polt with his Super Tournament win) were a big deal back then, it was no small feat. The competition was fierce despite kespa not switching yet
I mean random masters player have a fundamentally much better understanding on how to play Starcraft than any GSL players (bar MVP/Nestea) in 2010. However, they would unquestionably lose to a lot of all-ins without specific practice in on the match/patch etc.
However, I think you do underestimate just how "stupid" players were back then. Terrans didn't even realize that opening hellions in TvZ were a must. This was pre-queen range buff. Queens had 3 range, they couldn't do anything. Hellions were insanely overpowered early TvZ. It took until mid 2011 before reactor first hellion (before expo) became the standard. Before that, terrans would still do terrible 1base all ins or other random cheeses.
If I could teleport myself back - with a few weeks of practice on the maps/patch - I put myself as one of the favorites to win any of the first 3 GSL seasons - even though my APM is much lower than the top competitors.
WoL was a much less mechanical demanding game than Sc2 today and terran was incredibly imbalanced in 2010. As long as you have a solid build, how do you even lose on maps like Lost Temple and Steppes of War as terran with like 150 effective APM and a solid understanding of the game + builds? At least TvZ should be unloseable. TvP, yes you do need some decent ghost/viking control to win late game, but protosses back then were terrible as well (bar MC).
But if you know how to do a fast 1base gasless expo in TvP (which is safe if you know how to do it right), you get a massive econ advantage in every TvP, and I think you win as well with 150 EAPM against everyone in that matchup.
Anyway, that's an offtopic. My original point was that every terran in 2010 had no clue what they were doing, didn't understand Starcraft fundamentals at all. MVP was the only one one in early Starcraft who demonstrated how to think about playing terran. Although in 2010 he was still somewhat raw. And I think he gets as little too praise for speeding up the learnings of all terrans in early WoL.
I know Jinro got praised a lot for being one of the only "macro terrans" in early WoL, but his macro-gameplay was weird and kind of "cheesy". Jinro relied massively on build-order-surprises to get ahead early in order to play an "imo" inefficienct macrotype of gameplay.
I’m still working on my time machine so hopefully someone can settle this once and for all!
Agreed, you could say the same about Idra too. Certainly a macro player, but it was kind of all he did and he was a bit vulnerable to certain styles. Where for Mvp it was eventually a resilient platform where he could execute a lot of gameplans from.
Idra may well have been the best Sc2 player in the first few months post release and late beta. However, he had a completely wrong mentality for how to think about Starcraft, and I am not just thinking about early GG timing.
His mentality was "I need to defend, build an army, and then attack and then I should win". Whereas execution of micro and how to trade, or even how to accurately time your attack.
So while MVP early on was a bit "raw" but had the correct idea on how to play the game, Idra wasn't raw early Sc2, but was mechanically vastly better than almost everyone else and knew the basics of the game better than other of the better BW players who switched. However, he gradually got worse as he never really "understood" how to win games after everyone learned the basics.
I also think 2012-zerg era mased how bad he had become at that point in time. Without zerg being so OP in that era he would likely have retired earlier.
Idra’s problem was he had a pre-conceived notion of how the game was meant to be ‘correctly’ played. Which was more abstract and theoretical.
Mvp played what he saw or developed ultimately.
Idra was an incredibly talented player, with a crippling psychological flaw (honestly one I 100% share, albeit elsewhere) where he liked certainty, if I do x, y should be the result. Which made him a pretty damn inflexible player.
Idra was in ways actually right to GG to MMA that time, realistically if MMA hadn’t actually killed his CC, which is so unlikely that there’s few comparable examples throughout SC2 history.
I saw an interview catchup recently with him and was quite happy to see he’s doing well, seems way more chilled and in a field (pun intended) that suits him. Happy to see it, I think trying to compete in a brutally competitive game just didn’t dovetail all that well with his personality.
Of all the pros I had any interactions with at Dreamhack Winter 2011, and sharing a smoke break with my all-time favourite HerO of the Liquid variety was nice, the Grack was probably the most engaging, interesting guy to talk to.
Cool, do you remember where you saw that video? I was and still am a bit of a Gracken fanboy.
I agree with your and Hider's analysis of Idra's mindset, though. I also think that he simply was not as good as he thought he was in several areas of the game. For example, his late-game army control was comparatively weak even at the time, and it was clear that he believed that once he had survived until the lategame, he just deserved to win, with him frequently a-moving too bluntly.
But it must be added that the effects of Idra's mindset were exacerbated by the fact that zerg was severely underpowered a good part of the time when he was most active. As Hider has pointed out, the irony of the situation was that terran in the early years of WoL could win in TvZ with a great range of hard-to-scout and deadly cheeses and all-ins, but in actuality terran was also perfectly viable in the lategame, as MVP and others have shown. So zergs were often in the situation of having had to avoid a series of potential insta-losses only to enter into an even fight.
I can’t recall where I saw it, merely that I know it exists!
There’s a State of the Game where he does make a rather good point. Either Zerg has to have good scouting options, or be able to play relatively blindly and be safe. You don’t need both, but you need 1, and that was a blooming good point. One of those two things has to be true for the reactive/defensive macro race to work properly.
I think a player of Idra’s skill set, ideas about the game etc would have been way more prosperous in later day SC2 than when he was actually playing
With queens and overlord pillars, Zerg basically has had both for years!
I do miss all the weird all-ins of early SC2 (not just early WOL, even in HOTS it felt like there was more room for creative all ins.) Then again, a lot of openings were killed by the 12 worker start, and in retrospect the 6 worker start felt like a waste of time in 90% of games. Also don't want players dying to hard to scout builds all the time... I do feel like the game has become too macro-oriented in most match-ups when neither player messes up (ZvZ and PvP are big exceptions to that trend.) Striking the right balance between short and long games is difficult in practice though, and having too many long games is an improvement over too many short games/build order wins.
Yeah i remember a several month period in GSL a couple years ago, where at some point i just realized like... wow most games literally end with the first push, and most games have 1 player doing some early-mid push on the opponent's third. It would just be over after that with no back and forth and it was really sad.
Now SC2 seems to really be reaching new heights the last year or so, and most games we see are these macro games where players get tons of bases and throw lots of armies at each other and trade trade trade. I think this is much better, though I do think that a 9-10 worker start would have been much better now that we know what 12 worker start does.
12 worker start favors Zerg a little too much, gets rid of a little too many openers, and accelerates the game to taking half the map a little too fast. Like it sucks that 12 worker start means that you hit that max efficiency of 16 workers on minerals so early. Back then with 6 worker start it was nice to have all these variations like 11 gas first, or 12 gas first, 12 rax 12 gas, or 12 rax 13 gas, 12 rax 1-2 marines before reactor vs going reaper first, 1 rax FE into double gas, whether to open 1 or 2 or heck 3 reaper first before expanding in TvZ... etc. They were small variations of each other, but had significant pros/cons and also made you have to scout not just the opening but scout again a little later to see if it's still the thing you think they're going for. Now scouting is a little simpler and more straightforward figuring out what they're going for, and unfortunately lost a bit of that cool part of the game.
Again I think it's better to not start with 6 workers, even if it gets rid of some crazy early proxies or rushes like a 1 rax proxy reaper at 8 supply, or 2 rax proxy reaper at 8 supply, etc. But it sucks that we made such a big jump that even the variations in gas timings became significantly reduced, there's much less choice when mineral mining efficiency drops to half after 16 workers on minerals.
And of course the other huge downside to 12 worker start - it led to us getting rid of 3 and 4 player maps. Huge. 9-10 worker start would probably have let you scout early enough.
Mvp was the most high-profile Brood War player to switch games at that point, being the only regular Proleague rotation player to make the leap. Considering that reputation, his first tournament was a disappointment as he finished in the RO32 of the 64-player tournament. Open Season 3 was similarly unremarkable, though Mvp improved slightly for an RO16 finish (most notably beating IdrA on the way).
His results were unremarkable. But I argue if you look at his gameplay he looked far far better than anyone else in 2010.
Watch Open Season 2 and how he plays TvZ in contrast to how terrans otherwise played Sc2. His style of gameplay was more similar to how it was played in 2011 whereas other terrans opened 1base Nukedrops (marineking) or BC rushes.
He knew how to play bio and macroplay such as splitting bio which he was the first one to demonstrate on the stage (although marineking popularized it).
However, he was definitely quite vulnerable to all-ins in 2010 as he hadn't quite nailed all parts of the game. But fundamentally speaking he was by far the best terran player in the early stage of Sc2.
The reason I rank him so highly is that almost noone in the first year of Sc2 understood how to play the game. MVP did and paved the way for a lot of terran playersr.
Even how to think about mixing builds together. If you wanna go for an early-in, your initial part of the build need to look similar to how you play the stand macro game. Similarly if you wanna greed, it needs to look similarly on the outside to how you play a solid game. MVP was the only terran player who understood that concept for the first 1½ year of WOL.
Mvp losing to all-ins and stuff despite being able to play macro games better than most players at the time is why it’s so funny when people think random masters of today would be able to win the GSLs from WoL. Sure, current top players would have a shot. Random low GMs might get extremely lucky but ultimately having learned to play LotV with bazillion QoL changes, free 2nd base and barely any real potent 1 base threat is not enough to just go back in time and win an open season. The most exciting thing about GSL back then was the « hidden » monsters like Bomber. Every KR player would label him and MKP (iirc) as ladder gods, yet Bomber needed so much time to qualify.
MMA managing to hang on with Mvp (and Polt with his Super Tournament win) were a big deal back then, it was no small feat. The competition was fierce despite kespa not switching yet
I've probably seen a thousand different cheeses during WoL on the Korean ladder. A lot of them have been capable to take a game away from you in a bo3 qualifier if not properly scouted. It was a slugfest compared to todays macro heaven. And trust me, you do not want to pick a fight with a random Korean GM in low eco-micro wars. You will lose.
I think the major problem (from terran perspective) is that they simply didn't know how to play safe. However, early-mid-2011 it got pretty obvious how terrans were supposed to get safely into macro games. But 2010 terrans didn't know that and aside from Blistering Sands - it imo had nothing to with the map-pool but rather a lack of understanding of the basics.
I think the bigger problem is that terrans back then had the idea that the race was bad late game and was "supposed to cheese/all-in". So that was the entire focus of the race. Plus winning games by doing early allins as opposed to properly learning how to play macro was harder so players were rewarded short-term for not properly learning the game.
That's why MVP stood out so much in open season 2 and season 3 (from the eye test) despite his results not being that great, because he actually wanted to properly play the game.
As an example of terrible terran openers in 2010. 1 base nuke drop. And on map 2 we open Maurauders vs zerg (???). This was a finalist btw.
Mvp was the most high-profile Brood War player to switch games at that point, being the only regular Proleague rotation player to make the leap. Considering that reputation, his first tournament was a disappointment as he finished in the RO32 of the 64-player tournament. Open Season 3 was similarly unremarkable, though Mvp improved slightly for an RO16 finish (most notably beating IdrA on the way).
His results were unremarkable. But I argue if you look at his gameplay he looked far far better than anyone else in 2010.
Watch Open Season 2 and how he plays TvZ in contrast to how terrans otherwise played Sc2. His style of gameplay was more similar to how it was played in 2011 whereas other terrans opened 1base Nukedrops (marineking) or BC rushes.
He knew how to play bio and macroplay such as splitting bio which he was the first one to demonstrate on the stage (although marineking popularized it).
However, he was definitely quite vulnerable to all-ins in 2010 as he hadn't quite nailed all parts of the game. But fundamentally speaking he was by far the best terran player in the early stage of Sc2.
The reason I rank him so highly is that almost noone in the first year of Sc2 understood how to play the game. MVP did and paved the way for a lot of terran playersr.
Even how to think about mixing builds together. If you wanna go for an early-in, your initial part of the build need to look similar to how you play the stand macro game. Similarly if you wanna greed, it needs to look similarly on the outside to how you play a solid game. MVP was the only terran player who understood that concept for the first 1½ year of WOL.
Mvp losing to all-ins and stuff despite being able to play macro games better than most players at the time is why it’s so funny when people think random masters of today would be able to win the GSLs from WoL. Sure, current top players would have a shot. Random low GMs might get extremely lucky but ultimately having learned to play LotV with bazillion QoL changes, free 2nd base and barely any real potent 1 base threat is not enough to just go back in time and win an open season. The most exciting thing about GSL back then was the « hidden » monsters like Bomber. Every KR player would label him and MKP (iirc) as ladder gods, yet Bomber needed so much time to qualify.
MMA managing to hang on with Mvp (and Polt with his Super Tournament win) were a big deal back then, it was no small feat. The competition was fierce despite kespa not switching yet
I've probably seen a thousand different cheeses during WoL on the Korean ladder. A lot of them have been capable to take a game away from you in a bo3 qualifier if not properly scouted. It was a slugfest compared to todays macro heaven. And trust me, you do not want to pick a fight with a random Korean GM in low eco-micro wars. You will lose.
I think the major problem (from terran perspective) is that they simply didn't know how to play safe. However, early-mid-2011 it got pretty obvious how terrans were supposed to get safely into macro games. But 2010 terrans didn't know that and aside from Blistering Sands - it imo had nothing to with the map-pool but rather a lack of understanding of the basics.
I think the bigger problem is that terrans back then had the idea that the race was bad late game and was "supposed to cheese/all-in". So that was the entire focus of the race. Plus winning games by doing early allins as opposed to properly learning how to play macro was harder so players were rewarded short-term for not properly learning the game.
That's why MVP stood out so much in open season 2 and season 3 (from the eye test) despite his results not being that great, because he actually wanted to properly play the game.
As an example of terrible terran openers in 2010. 1 base nuke drop. And on map 2 we open Maurauders vs zerg (???). This was a finalist btw.
lol at 20:05 Artosis saying burrowed banelings are gonna starting forcing ravens out, we're still waiting 14 years later!
pretty cool game by Mvp, I still like watching those old matches
It'll take another year before burrowed infestors start forcing ravens out, and then maybe in 2026 we'll see serral somehow fit burrowed banelings in ontop of the million other amazing things he already does, and then in 2028 we'll finally see Artosis was right!!
On February 21 2024 09:02 Pentarp wrote: Why are we only looking at tournament results?
Look at the single-handed impact of Mvp in getting ghost snipe nerfed into oblivion. No other player can boast a massive balance change based only on their performance.
ByuN being a reaper patch terran caused some big nerfs and Scarlett got that disgusting unbeatable elevator ling build nerfed as well. I'd say both of those were more obnoxious as Mvp is way better than either.
ByuN was able to beat Serral in epic macro games after coming back from the military, there is no world (even if mvp happened to be younger and didn't have health issues) in which Mvp would have been able to do the same on LotV in 2020. I mean I like mvp as much as any terran fan, and he might be higher than ByuN in a GOAT list, but in a best player of all time list, ByuN has reached highs mvp could not ever reach simply mechanically speaking.
I mean aside from the obvious injury, and military service, I don't think it's provable Mvp couldn't do it, not sure why you would think this. Byun was competing when Mvp was around too and wasn't able to see nearly as much success as Mvp did. Even just on Byun's team, Prime, MarineKing was the actual ace of the team. I don't think it's fair to say an immortal Mvp wouldn't have been able to improve as much or keep up.
Polt is another similar player from that era, or Bomber or Taeja a little after. (all 3 of them seeing success after the KeSPA switch, like at the season finals or Blizzcon, and Taeja came back from the military and immediately had a 2-3 to Serral at a Homestory Cup)
It's never easy for an old dog to learn new tricks, but Mvp did learn new tricks with his injury and he reinvented himself.
On February 21 2024 09:02 Pentarp wrote: Why are we only looking at tournament results?
Look at the single-handed impact of Mvp in getting ghost snipe nerfed into oblivion. No other player can boast a massive balance change based only on their performance.
ByuN being a reaper patch terran caused some big nerfs and Scarlett got that disgusting unbeatable elevator ling build nerfed as well. I'd say both of those were more obnoxious as Mvp is way better than either.
ByuN was able to beat Serral in epic macro games after coming back from the military, there is no world (even if mvp happened to be younger and didn't have health issues) in which Mvp would have been able to do the same on LotV in 2020. I mean I like mvp as much as any terran fan, and he might be higher than ByuN in a GOAT list, but in a best player of all time list, ByuN has reached highs mvp could not ever reach simply mechanically speaking.
I mean aside from the obvious injury, and military service, I don't think it's provable Mvp couldn't do it, not sure why you would think this. Byun was competing when Mvp was around too and wasn't able to see nearly as much success as Mvp did. Even just on Byun's team, Prime, MarineKing was the actual ace of the team. I don't think it's fair to say an immortal Mvp wouldn't have been able to improve as much or keep up.
Polt is another similar player from that era, or Bomber or Taeja a little after. (all 3 of them seeing success after the KeSPA switch, like at the season finals or Blizzcon, and Taeja came back from the military and immediately had a 2-3 to Serral at a Homestory Cup)
It's never easy for an old dog to learn new tricks, but Mvp did learn new tricks with his injury and he reinvented himself.
ByuN didn't hit his prime in WoL, so it's not a particularly useful comparison imo. Same for Maru, who was way too young in WoL, and needed HotS to be at his best level ; ByuN didn't play HotS afaik, he kinda come back in LotV. And it's mostly about mechanics / eye test, you could already see in WoL that Maru would obtain insane mechanics later on, given his gameplay at such a young age (pretty reminiscent of Clem in terms of development)
On February 21 2024 09:02 Pentarp wrote: Why are we only looking at tournament results?
Look at the single-handed impact of Mvp in getting ghost snipe nerfed into oblivion. No other player can boast a massive balance change based only on their performance.
ByuN being a reaper patch terran caused some big nerfs and Scarlett got that disgusting unbeatable elevator ling build nerfed as well. I'd say both of those were more obnoxious as Mvp is way better than either.
ByuN was able to beat Serral in epic macro games after coming back from the military, there is no world (even if mvp happened to be younger and didn't have health issues) in which Mvp would have been able to do the same on LotV in 2020. I mean I like mvp as much as any terran fan, and he might be higher than ByuN in a GOAT list, but in a best player of all time list, ByuN has reached highs mvp could not ever reach simply mechanically speaking.
I mean aside from the obvious injury, and military service, I don't think it's provable Mvp couldn't do it, not sure why you would think this. Byun was competing when Mvp was around too and wasn't able to see nearly as much success as Mvp did. Even just on Byun's team, Prime, MarineKing was the actual ace of the team. I don't think it's fair to say an immortal Mvp wouldn't have been able to improve as much or keep up.
Polt is another similar player from that era, or Bomber or Taeja a little after. (all 3 of them seeing success after the KeSPA switch, like at the season finals or Blizzcon, and Taeja came back from the military and immediately had a 2-3 to Serral at a Homestory Cup)
It's never easy for an old dog to learn new tricks, but Mvp did learn new tricks with his injury and he reinvented himself.
ByuN didn't hit his prime in WoL, so it's not a particularly useful comparison imo. Same for Maru, who was way too young in WoL, and needed HotS to be at his best level ; ByuN didn't play HotS afaik, he kinda come back in LotV. And it's mostly about mechanics / eye test, you could already see in WoL that Maru would obtain insane mechanics later on, given his gameplay at such a young age (pretty reminiscent of Clem in terms of development)
ByuN didn't play Hots because he abandoned his team and went radio silent for three years.
On February 21 2024 09:02 Pentarp wrote: Why are we only looking at tournament results?
Look at the single-handed impact of Mvp in getting ghost snipe nerfed into oblivion. No other player can boast a massive balance change based only on their performance.
ByuN being a reaper patch terran caused some big nerfs and Scarlett got that disgusting unbeatable elevator ling build nerfed as well. I'd say both of those were more obnoxious as Mvp is way better than either.
ByuN was able to beat Serral in epic macro games after coming back from the military, there is no world (even if mvp happened to be younger and didn't have health issues) in which Mvp would have been able to do the same on LotV in 2020. I mean I like mvp as much as any terran fan, and he might be higher than ByuN in a GOAT list, but in a best player of all time list, ByuN has reached highs mvp could not ever reach simply mechanically speaking.
I mean aside from the obvious injury, and military service, I don't think it's provable Mvp couldn't do it, not sure why you would think this. Byun was competing when Mvp was around too and wasn't able to see nearly as much success as Mvp did. Even just on Byun's team, Prime, MarineKing was the actual ace of the team. I don't think it's fair to say an immortal Mvp wouldn't have been able to improve as much or keep up.
Polt is another similar player from that era, or Bomber or Taeja a little after. (all 3 of them seeing success after the KeSPA switch, like at the season finals or Blizzcon, and Taeja came back from the military and immediately had a 2-3 to Serral at a Homestory Cup)
It's never easy for an old dog to learn new tricks, but Mvp did learn new tricks with his injury and he reinvented himself.
impossible to tell, you'd also expect Leenock and Creator to do well post-WoL but they didn't. Which is one of the reasons why I think longevity is an important factor for measuring a players greatness and it's not as easy as "he was young when he started competing so obviously he got lots of results"
Mvp was the most high-profile Brood War player to switch games at that point, being the only regular Proleague rotation player to make the leap. Considering that reputation, his first tournament was a disappointment as he finished in the RO32 of the 64-player tournament. Open Season 3 was similarly unremarkable, though Mvp improved slightly for an RO16 finish (most notably beating IdrA on the way).
His results were unremarkable. But I argue if you look at his gameplay he looked far far better than anyone else in 2010.
Watch Open Season 2 and how he plays TvZ in contrast to how terrans otherwise played Sc2. His style of gameplay was more similar to how it was played in 2011 whereas other terrans opened 1base Nukedrops (marineking) or BC rushes.
He knew how to play bio and macroplay such as splitting bio which he was the first one to demonstrate on the stage (although marineking popularized it).
However, he was definitely quite vulnerable to all-ins in 2010 as he hadn't quite nailed all parts of the game. But fundamentally speaking he was by far the best terran player in the early stage of Sc2.
The reason I rank him so highly is that almost noone in the first year of Sc2 understood how to play the game. MVP did and paved the way for a lot of terran playersr.
Even how to think about mixing builds together. If you wanna go for an early-in, your initial part of the build need to look similar to how you play the stand macro game. Similarly if you wanna greed, it needs to look similarly on the outside to how you play a solid game. MVP was the only terran player who understood that concept for the first 1½ year of WOL.
Mvp losing to all-ins and stuff despite being able to play macro games better than most players at the time is why it’s so funny when people think random masters of today would be able to win the GSLs from WoL. Sure, current top players would have a shot. Random low GMs might get extremely lucky but ultimately having learned to play LotV with bazillion QoL changes, free 2nd base and barely any real potent 1 base threat is not enough to just go back in time and win an open season. The most exciting thing about GSL back then was the « hidden » monsters like Bomber. Every KR player would label him and MKP (iirc) as ladder gods, yet Bomber needed so much time to qualify.
MMA managing to hang on with Mvp (and Polt with his Super Tournament win) were a big deal back then, it was no small feat. The competition was fierce despite kespa not switching yet
I've probably seen a thousand different cheeses during WoL on the Korean ladder. A lot of them have been capable to take a game away from you in a bo3 qualifier if not properly scouted. It was a slugfest compared to todays macro heaven. And trust me, you do not want to pick a fight with a random Korean GM in low eco-micro wars. You will lose.
I think the major problem (from terran perspective) is that they simply didn't know how to play safe. However, early-mid-2011 it got pretty obvious how terrans were supposed to get safely into macro games. But 2010 terrans didn't know that and aside from Blistering Sands - it imo had nothing to with the map-pool but rather a lack of understanding of the basics.
I think the bigger problem is that terrans back then had the idea that the race was bad late game and was "supposed to cheese/all-in". So that was the entire focus of the race. Plus winning games by doing early allins as opposed to properly learning how to play macro was harder so players were rewarded short-term for not properly learning the game.
That's why MVP stood out so much in open season 2 and season 3 (from the eye test) despite his results not being that great, because he actually wanted to properly play the game.
As an example of terrible terran openers in 2010. 1 base nuke drop. And on map 2 we open Maurauders vs zerg (???). This was a finalist btw.
lol at 20:05 Artosis saying burrowed banelings are gonna starting forcing ravens out, we're still waiting 14 years later!
pretty cool game by Mvp, I still like watching those old matches
It'll take another year before burrowed infestors start forcing ravens out, and then maybe in 2026 we'll see serral somehow fit burrowed banelings in ontop of the million other amazing things he already does, and then in 2028 we'll finally see Artosis was right!!
Also good post on the 12 worker start.
I feel Artosis was only wrong because Zergs started to get so good at spreading creep, and the battle between spreading/denying creep became such a huge part of TvZ.
If Terrans are poking or pushing, they’re almost always scanning so the likelihood of dropping a sick landmine trap is just so low versus just haemorrhaging a bunch of banes that do nothing.
They’re a sick play and definitely very high up there if we’re considering things we could maybe see more of throughout SC2’s history. But I guess they’re actually pretty situational, they’re super good in a wonky game that goes lower eco, Bomber versus Scarlett being one such memorable occasion.
About the baneling traps, if the terran doesn't have enough orbitals to properly keep up with it and/or his economy, lurkers are just far better at closing the game out. Burrowed banelings can still be useful in scrappy games, Reynor made decent use of it in some games iirc
I refuse to think Mvp isn't number 1 because he was such a powerhouse even at the notorious BL infestors era.
And he was the reason I switched to terran and made me realise just how open style terran can be, unlike zerg which was more "forced" to be all in or macro.
On February 23 2024 22:14 lolfail9001 wrote: In hindsight, i realise that Mvp would deserve a place on GOAT list just for the sake of being kicked out of GSL by soO. Narrative, guys, narrative!
I asked soO about this as he effectively retired Flash as well as Mvp. He doesn't think it's all that interesting, but the storyteller in me finds it intriguing.
On February 23 2024 22:11 KingzTig wrote: I refuse to think Mvp isn't number 1 because he was such a powerhouse even at the notorious BL infestors era.
And he was the reason I switched to terran and made me realise just how open style terran can be, unlike zerg which was more "forced" to be all in or macro.
Gonna give my boy Taeja another shoutout. I remember him to be the only Terran regularly winning late games against top zergs in the BL/Infestor era. Mvp pioneer the mass ghost late game TvZ and Taeja was the only one really had the mechanics and brain to use it well. Every other Terran was trying to end the game before Zerg gets to that BL/Infestor combo while Taeja often calmly split the map with Zerg and still win with superior ghost control/multitasking in the end.
While doing some research, I happened upon this gem. I'm still pretty certain Zerg micro peaked right here. (I guess people could move their right hand in 2015).
On February 25 2024 00:49 Mizenhauer wrote: While doing some research, I happened upon this gem. I'm still pretty certain Zerg micro peaked right here. (I guess people could move their right hand in 2015).
Of players who were pretty damn relevant for much of WoL at the top end, Leenock falling off quite a bit was always something of a mystery to me. He seemed to, to the eyes anyway have the skill set to keep going a bit longer.
On February 25 2024 00:49 Mizenhauer wrote: While doing some research, I happened upon this gem. I'm still pretty certain Zerg micro peaked right here. (I guess people could move their right hand in 2015).
Of players who were pretty damn relevant for much of WoL at the top end, Leenock falling off quite a bit was always something of a mystery to me. He seemed to, to the eyes anyway have the skill set to keep going a bit longer.
We'll always have VSL (Back in 2017, Leenock randomly made the Ro4 despite some pretty stiff competition).
On February 25 2024 00:49 Mizenhauer wrote: While doing some research, I happened upon this gem. I'm still pretty certain Zerg micro peaked right here. (I guess people could move their right hand in 2015).
On February 25 2024 00:49 Mizenhauer wrote: While doing some research, I happened upon this gem. I'm still pretty certain Zerg micro peaked right here. (I guess people could move their right hand in 2015).
First post here. Hello. Hailing from reddit as ArchivesTraveler
When it comes to zerg, micro isn't the focus anyway. There's a plethora of things you have to juggle, and if you focus that hard on your micro, chances are you're neglecting important factors in what would otherwise be more optimal (yet still human) play.
I remember when Scarlett was known for her penchant for excellent creep spread. And then Serral circa 2018 came, and not only becoming better at spreading creep, but was excelling in every other area as well. This generation of players may be a smaller pool, but they have the skills and game depth of knowledge in spades, far superior to the early eras. Moreover, LotV is a more complex, richer iteration of SC2. Just looking at the differences in army compositions alone is enough evidence of the improvement of...well, almost everything.
On February 25 2024 10:30 Perceivere wrote: First post here. Hello. Hailing from reddit as ArchivesTraveler
When it comes to zerg, micro isn't the focus anyway. There's a plethora of things you have to juggle, and if you focus that hard on your micro, chances are you're neglecting important factors in what would otherwise be more optimal (yet still human) play.
I remember when Scarlett was known for her penchant for excellent creep spread. And then Serral circa 2018 came, and not only becoming better at spreading creep, but was excelling in every other area as well. This generation of players may be a smaller pool, but they have the skills and game depth of knowledge in spades, far superior to the early eras. Moreover, LotV is a more complex, richer iteration of SC2. Just looking at the differences in army compositions alone is enough evidence of the improvement of...well, almost everything.
On February 25 2024 10:30 Perceivere wrote: First post here. Hello. Hailing from reddit as ArchivesTraveler
When it comes to zerg, micro isn't the focus anyway. There's a plethora of things you have to juggle, and if you focus that hard on your micro, chances are you're neglecting important factors in what would otherwise be more optimal (yet still human) play.
I remember when Scarlett was known for her penchant for excellent creep spread. And then Serral circa 2018 came, and not only becoming better at spreading creep, but was excelling in every other area as well. This generation of players may be a smaller pool, but they have the skills and game depth of knowledge in spades, far superior to the early eras. Moreover, LotV is a more complex, richer iteration of SC2. Just looking at the differences in army compositions alone is enough evidence of the improvement of...well, almost everything.
This is quite the dissertation for a shit post.
Wasn't intended as such. Would like to see any well-argued refutation. Edit: lol Okay, I guess I didn't get whose post you meant was the "shit post." Anyway, sick mutas split.
On February 25 2024 10:30 Perceivere wrote: First post here. Hello. Hailing from reddit as ArchivesTraveler
When it comes to zerg, micro isn't the focus anyway. There's a plethora of things you have to juggle, and if you focus that hard on your micro, chances are you're neglecting important factors in what would otherwise be more optimal (yet still human) play.
I remember when Scarlett was known for her penchant for excellent creep spread. And then Serral circa 2018 came, and not only becoming better at spreading creep, but was excelling in every other area as well. This generation of players may be a smaller pool, but they have the skills and game depth of knowledge in spades, far superior to the early eras. Moreover, LotV is a more complex, richer iteration of SC2. Just looking at the differences in army compositions alone is enough evidence of the improvement of...well, almost everything.
Well it’s quite true. The previous era skill ceiling was quite low.
People will argue “there was more competition 50 pros pushing each others to the limit”, but 45 of them are most likely b tier players that will never threaten any of the top dogs
Right now we are witnessing the highest skill era of sc2
On February 25 2024 00:49 Mizenhauer wrote: While doing some research, I happened upon this gem. I'm still pretty certain Zerg micro peaked right here. (I guess people could move their right hand in 2015).
Of players who were pretty damn relevant for much of WoL at the top end, Leenock falling off quite a bit was always something of a mystery to me. He seemed to, to the eyes anyway have the skill set to keep going a bit longer.
We'll always have VSL (Back in 2017, Leenock randomly made the Ro4 despite some pretty stiff competition).
On February 25 2024 10:30 Perceivere wrote: First post here. Hello. Hailing from reddit as ArchivesTraveler
When it comes to zerg, micro isn't the focus anyway. There's a plethora of things you have to juggle, and if you focus that hard on your micro, chances are you're neglecting important factors in what would otherwise be more optimal (yet still human) play.
I remember when Scarlett was known for her penchant for excellent creep spread. And then Serral circa 2018 came, and not only becoming better at spreading creep, but was excelling in every other area as well. This generation of players may be a smaller pool, but they have the skills and game depth of knowledge in spades, far superior to the early eras. Moreover, LotV is a more complex, richer iteration of SC2. Just looking at the differences in army compositions alone is enough evidence of the improvement of...well, almost everything.
Well it’s quite true. The previous era skill ceiling was quite low.
People will argue “there was more competition 50 pros pushing each others to the limit”, but 45 of them are most likely b tier players that will never threaten any of the top dogs
Right now we are witnessing the highest skill era of sc2
That take is for away from the truth I am not sure how to start tackling it.... like your 50 total pros but only top 5 statment to back the "skill ceiling was low in HOTS" is literally the situation rigth now?
On February 25 2024 00:49 Mizenhauer wrote: While doing some research, I happened upon this gem. I'm still pretty certain Zerg micro peaked right here. (I guess people could move their right hand in 2015).
Of players who were pretty damn relevant for much of WoL at the top end, Leenock falling off quite a bit was always something of a mystery to me. He seemed to, to the eyes anyway have the skill set to keep going a bit longer.
We'll always have VSL (Back in 2017, Leenock randomly made the Ro4 despite some pretty stiff competition).
On February 25 2024 00:49 Mizenhauer wrote: While doing some research, I happened upon this gem. I'm still pretty certain Zerg micro peaked right here. (I guess people could move their right hand in 2015).
bUt A Low Na mAStER PLAyeR WoUld wiN the GSL iF He PlayEd HoTS
I mean if people claimed this it would be silly, but the claim is usually that a decent GM player would win one of the early WoL GSLs. Which I think they largely would.
On February 25 2024 10:30 Perceivere wrote: First post here. Hello. Hailing from reddit as ArchivesTraveler
When it comes to zerg, micro isn't the focus anyway. There's a plethora of things you have to juggle, and if you focus that hard on your micro, chances are you're neglecting important factors in what would otherwise be more optimal (yet still human) play.
I remember when Scarlett was known for her penchant for excellent creep spread. And then Serral circa 2018 came, and not only becoming better at spreading creep, but was excelling in every other area as well. This generation of players may be a smaller pool, but they have the skills and game depth of knowledge in spades, far superior to the early eras. Moreover, LotV is a more complex, richer iteration of SC2. Just looking at the differences in army compositions alone is enough evidence of the improvement of...well, almost everything.
Welcome oh traveller!
I’m unsure whether Legacy is really more complex, rather than being outright faster. You perhaps swap out mechanical difficulty, for a little strategic/tactical depth as the early/midgame.
Hence I think you see a real notable falloff for a player like sOs who absolutely excelled with strategic and tactical brilliance in those phases, but wasn’t mechanically top tier even amongst his Protoss peers, never mind Terran and Zergs.
For me all the following can be true: 1. A Serral type has set a new high water mark for raw skill. 2. There are less top contenders, so it’s less competitive overall. There’s less genuine title contenders in a field who can push most to the absolute limit. 3. The foreign scene is stronger skill wise than before. 4. If the scene was more competitive, that skill ceiling reached would likely be even higher today compared to the past than it is now.
I’m not historically a people pleaser, and I’m not starting now :p I just genuinely do think that ‘Highest skilled era’ advocates and ‘Least competitive era’ acolytes can simultaneously both be correct.
Development in most human spheres the trajectory is up, even in niche activities via shared knowledge and optimisation over time. There will be some where it becomes too niche, or knowledge and expertise are lost over time, where the level of expertise and skill stagnate or go actively backwards. But I don’t think SC2 is quite at that stage, examples of the former would be superseded construction techniques for crafts, furniture and such items. Where a handful of people using traditional techniques start dying off and an even smaller handful of people they may have trained can merely hope to replicate, and so on.
So I think SC2 is in a zone where the skill level has moved up, but if it was more competitive structurally, it would have pushed up even further and more rapidly.
While I wouldn’t go as far to say they’re coasting, Maru or Dark don’t really have to commit 100% anymore either. Playing at 85/90% is generally enough for them to place high in GSLs and elsewhere. Below that, you have players roughly in the same scenario, maybe a few of them lack a GSL so have extra motivation. But it won’t be for the prize money, the differential really isn’t that big and the pool full stop isn’t that big.
It’s an arbitrary number but 85/90% effort, switching to all-out for a World Champ tier tourney is sufficient to keep a certain level of play maintained, but it’s not really pushing it upwards either.
Serral had to go all-out and keep pushing upwards if he was to hope to break through and establish himself amongst the best when he did, which had less depth than a few years prior, but still appreciably a lot more than today. He had to raise the skill level to do what he did, merely getting to an equal level and he’d just be one of a handful of championship contenders
I think what’s kept Serral at such a level is actually the mirror image of why the Korean scene has issues, the emergence of Reynor and subsequently Clem. Serral can’t just put his feet up and play at 85/90% and just win anyway because he’s that much better than the EU field at large.
Oops, getting way into TLDR territory. I think it’s a crying shame what happened to the Korean scene, when the new talent pipeline dried up it was just a matter of time until the reservoir of existing talent dried up too. And nobody came to help either, outside GSL patreons, contrast with very considered structural pushes to help the foreign scene over the years.
On February 25 2024 00:49 Mizenhauer wrote: While doing some research, I happened upon this gem. I'm still pretty certain Zerg micro peaked right here. (I guess people could move their right hand in 2015).
bUt A Low Na mAStER PLAyeR WoUld wiN the GSL iF He PlayEd HoTS
I mean if people claimed this it would be silly, but the claim is usually that a decent GM player would win one of the early WoL GSLs. Which I think they largely would.
On February 25 2024 10:30 Perceivere wrote: First post here. Hello. Hailing from reddit as ArchivesTraveler
When it comes to zerg, micro isn't the focus anyway. There's a plethora of things you have to juggle, and if you focus that hard on your micro, chances are you're neglecting important factors in what would otherwise be more optimal (yet still human) play.
I remember when Scarlett was known for her penchant for excellent creep spread. And then Serral circa 2018 came, and not only becoming better at spreading creep, but was excelling in every other area as well. This generation of players may be a smaller pool, but they have the skills and game depth of knowledge in spades, far superior to the early eras. Moreover, LotV is a more complex, richer iteration of SC2. Just looking at the differences in army compositions alone is enough evidence of the improvement of...well, almost everything.
Welcome oh traveller!
I’m unsure whether Legacy is really more complex, rather than being outright faster. You perhaps swap out mechanical difficulty, for a little strategic/tactical depth as the early/midgame.
Hence I think you see a real notable falloff for a player like sOs who absolutely excelled with strategic and tactical brilliance in those phases, but wasn’t mechanically top tier even amongst his Protoss peers, never mind Terran and Zergs.
For me all the following can be true: 1. A Serral type has set a new high water mark for raw skill. 2. There are less top contenders, so it’s less competitive overall. There’s less genuine title contenders in a field who can push most to the absolute limit. 3. The foreign scene is stronger skill wise than before. 4. If the scene was more competitive, that skill ceiling reached would likely be even higher today compared to the past than it is now.
I’m not historically a people pleaser, and I’m not starting now :p I just genuinely do think that ‘Highest skilled era’ advocates and ‘Least competitive era’ acolytes can simultaneously both be correct.
Development in most human spheres the trajectory is up, even in niche activities via shared knowledge and optimisation over time. There will be some where it becomes too niche, or knowledge and expertise are lost over time, where the level of expertise and skill stagnate or go actively backwards. But I don’t think SC2 is quite at that stage, examples of the former would be superseded construction techniques for crafts, furniture and such items. Where a handful of people using traditional techniques start dying off and an even smaller handful of people they may have trained can merely hope to replicate, and so on.
So I think SC2 is in a zone where the skill level has moved up, but if it was more competitive structurally, it would have pushed up even further and more rapidly.
While I wouldn’t go as far to say they’re coasting, Maru or Dark don’t really have to commit 100% anymore either. Playing at 85/90% is generally enough for them to place high in GSLs and elsewhere. Below that, you have players roughly in the same scenario, maybe a few of them lack a GSL so have extra motivation. But it won’t be for the prize money, the differential really isn’t that big and the pool full stop isn’t that big.
It’s an arbitrary number but 85/90% effort, switching to all-out for a World Champ tier tourney is sufficient to keep a certain level of play maintained, but it’s not really pushing it upwards either.
Serral had to go all-out and keep pushing upwards if he was to hope to break through and establish himself amongst the best when he did, which had less depth than a few years prior, but still appreciably a lot more than today. He had to raise the skill level to do what he did, merely getting to an equal level and he’d just be one of a handful of championship contenders
I think what’s kept Serral at such a level is actually the mirror image of why the Korean scene has issues, the emergence of Reynor and subsequently Clem. Serral can’t just put his feet up and play at 85/90% and just win anyway because he’s that much better than the EU field at large.
Oops, getting way into TLDR territory. I think it’s a crying shame what happened to the Korean scene, when the new talent pipeline dried up it was just a matter of time until the reservoir of existing talent dried up too. And nobody came to help either, outside GSL patreons, contrast with very considered structural pushes to help the foreign scene over the years.
A very well thought out response.
Yes, I think we can all unanimously agree that the skill floor would be raised up if the global pool of talents were as large as it was in the heyday of SC2. Realistically, though, I think we shouldn't overestimated this aspect too much. A runner can only improve his speed/endurance so much, regardless of the size of pool of runners. He may be more motivated; or perhaps, more overwhelmed. Same in most other arenas of competition.
I think Protoss has lost so many top talents, that it's very sad even if herO and Classic will suddenly surge upward and claim some big wins. We used to have some great lategame protoss, such as Neeb and Trap. I still remember that one Pig Sty 4-3 series between Serral and Trap that went beyond 3 hours. That was incredible, and we likely will never see it again. Perhaps it is because Serral has gotten too good, but I think it's also because we longer have a lategame Protoss.
I think we'll just have to get used to the reality that RTS genre and SC will remain a very niche sector of gaming. SC2's early exuberance was by and large inherited from the global attention focused toward Brood War, which at that time was the only major pro gaming arena. Unfortunately for SC2, other pro gaming spheres propped up, and now we're relegated to the children's seat at the table. Oh, well...what can we do?
Still, there is, in my opinion, enough passion within this niche community to keep SC competition going perhaps a few more years. It's just a question of how much funding continues to go into it, to which in all likelihood, the answer will be such that there will probably be no new talents to replace the soon-to-retire ones. That will be the eve of SC2. We had a good run, anyway.
On February 25 2024 00:49 Mizenhauer wrote: While doing some research, I happened upon this gem. I'm still pretty certain Zerg micro peaked right here. (I guess people could move their right hand in 2015).
Of players who were pretty damn relevant for much of WoL at the top end, Leenock falling off quite a bit was always something of a mystery to me. He seemed to, to the eyes anyway have the skill set to keep going a bit longer.
We'll always have VSL (Back in 2017, Leenock randomly made the Ro4 despite some pretty stiff competition).
On February 25 2024 00:49 Mizenhauer wrote: While doing some research, I happened upon this gem. I'm still pretty certain Zerg micro peaked right here. (I guess people could move their right hand in 2015).
Of players who were pretty damn relevant for much of WoL at the top end, Leenock falling off quite a bit was always something of a mystery to me. He seemed to, to the eyes anyway have the skill set to keep going a bit longer.
We'll always have VSL (Back in 2017, Leenock randomly made the Ro4 despite some pretty stiff competition).
On February 25 2024 00:49 Mizenhauer wrote: While doing some research, I happened upon this gem. I'm still pretty certain Zerg micro peaked right here. (I guess people could move their right hand in 2015).
Of players who were pretty damn relevant for much of WoL at the top end, Leenock falling off quite a bit was always something of a mystery to me. He seemed to, to the eyes anyway have the skill set to keep going a bit longer.
We'll always have VSL (Back in 2017, Leenock randomly made the Ro4 despite some pretty stiff competition).
On February 25 2024 10:30 Perceivere wrote: First post here. Hello. Hailing from reddit as ArchivesTraveler
When it comes to zerg, micro isn't the focus anyway. There's a plethora of things you have to juggle, and if you focus that hard on your micro, chances are you're neglecting important factors in what would otherwise be more optimal (yet still human) play.
I remember when Scarlett was known for her penchant for excellent creep spread. And then Serral circa 2018 came, and not only becoming better at spreading creep, but was excelling in every other area as well. This generation of players may be a smaller pool, but they have the skills and game depth of knowledge in spades, far superior to the early eras. Moreover, LotV is a more complex, richer iteration of SC2. Just looking at the differences in army compositions alone is enough evidence of the improvement of...well, almost everything.
Well it’s quite true. The previous era skill ceiling was quite low.
People will argue “there was more competition 50 pros pushing each others to the limit”, but 45 of them are most likely b tier players that will never threaten any of the top dogs
Right now we are witnessing the highest skill era of sc2
Such an absolutely insane take. The exact opposite of what's true. Complete denial of reality.
It's absolutely the case now, in 2024, that there are only say 5 players who are expected to win tournaments.
2013-2016 had a far, far, far greater variety in champions. Even making back to back playoffs in GSL was a huge achievement. The player pool was so deep that someone who hadn't even made it out of Code A could potentially win (it happened, both Dear and Zest won Code S the first time they got to the ro32). Sometimes even the champions wouldn't reach the ro32 the next season (INno in 2016 season 1).
On February 25 2024 00:49 Mizenhauer wrote: While doing some research, I happened upon this gem. I'm still pretty certain Zerg micro peaked right here. (I guess people could move their right hand in 2015).
bUt A Low Na mAStER PLAyeR WoUld wiN the GSL iF He PlayEd HoTS
I mean if people claimed this it would be silly, but the claim is usually that a decent GM player would win one of the early WoL GSLs. Which I think they largely would.
The claim that a casual GM player could win one of the first GSL seasons, sure, they would have a good chance. But even then it would rely on them figuring out the busted builds and allins everyone was doing to get to a macro game.
Besides, the early GSL seasons were so far removed from even the seasons 1 year later in terms of skill and understanding, let alone 2013 onwards. The fact people think any GM now would win tournaments in HotS is weird, there were many HotS players who had been pros training in teamhouses for 5-10 years prior.
On February 25 2024 10:30 Perceivere wrote: First post here. Hello. Hailing from reddit as ArchivesTraveler
When it comes to zerg, micro isn't the focus anyway. There's a plethora of things you have to juggle, and if you focus that hard on your micro, chances are you're neglecting important factors in what would otherwise be more optimal (yet still human) play.
I remember when Scarlett was known for her penchant for excellent creep spread. And then Serral circa 2018 came, and not only becoming better at spreading creep, but was excelling in every other area as well. This generation of players may be a smaller pool, but they have the skills and game depth of knowledge in spades, far superior to the early eras. Moreover, LotV is a more complex, richer iteration of SC2. Just looking at the differences in army compositions alone is enough evidence of the improvement of...well, almost everything.
Well it’s quite true. The previous era skill ceiling was quite low.
People will argue “there was more competition 50 pros pushing each others to the limit”, but 45 of them are most likely b tier players that will never threaten any of the top dogs
Right now we are witnessing the highest skill era of sc2
Such an absolutely insane take. The exact opposite of what's true. Complete denial of reality.
It's absolutely the case now, in 2024, that there are only say 5 players who are expected to win tournaments.
2013-2016 had a far, far, far greater variety in champions. Even making back to back playoffs in GSL was a huge achievement. The player pool was so deep that someone who hadn't even made it out of Code A could potentially win (it happened, both Dear and Zest won Code S the first time they got to the ro32). Sometimes even the champions wouldn't reach the ro32 the next season (INno in 2016 season 1).
That's not the point. Of course with a greater pool of talents, you'll see a greater variety of champions in the initial stages of the game. The game was far less developed back then in virtually every way, except for the pro gaming infrastructure. When you have an undeveloped game, you'll get a number of players cooking up a variety of builds and strategies never seen before, which creates a scenario in which many people can get a strong chance at holding the trophy, if they can throw enough wrenches into the works. Case in point: sOs. Over time, however, these builds/strats just keep narrowing to fewer ones that actually can work, because most of them simply got figured out, or players developed the mechanical skills to deal with them, while also newer plays were developed, often requiring more APM and multitasking. This process takes years to develop, and we now see players far more polished and knowledgeable than the version of themself from 5 years ago, let alone 10 years.
On February 25 2024 00:49 Mizenhauer wrote: While doing some research, I happened upon this gem. I'm still pretty certain Zerg micro peaked right here. (I guess people could move their right hand in 2015).
bUt A Low Na mAStER PLAyeR WoUld wiN the GSL iF He PlayEd HoTS
I mean if people claimed this it would be silly, but the claim is usually that a decent GM player would win one of the early WoL GSLs. Which I think they largely would.
The claim that a casual GM player could win one of the first GSL seasons, sure, they would have a good chance. But even then it would rely on them figuring out the busted builds and allins everyone was doing to get to a macro game.
Besides, the early GSL seasons were so far removed from even the seasons 1 year later in terms of skill and understanding, let alone 2013 onwards. The fact people think any GM now would win tournaments in HotS is weird, there were many HotS players who had been pros training in teamhouses for 5-10 years prior.
Aye I’m just saying I rarely encounter that specific claim, mostly because it’s bloody mental.
I’ve still quite a backlog to get through from this series, which I’m looking forward to, but anyone who can watch say, that Taeja versus Innovation game and with a straight face say a decent upper GM player today could remotely hang at that level is an insane person.
My general observance of recent viewing (not all GOAT related) 1. The level is recognisably close to today’s, and from a way earlier point that I would have assumed. 2. Taeja was really bloody good and absolutely would have been a contender for a long time if not for his injuries.
I’m not seeing a huge amount lacking in play wayyyy back, I mean sure people make mistakes, they still do today.
There’s some optimisations here and there, players today are just that little better at consistently dealing with certain things a little better, like Zergs rarely eat big mine hits today. Modern creep spread is pretty insane.
Really I’d say only Serral (obviously) doing his thing, maybe Reynor at his absolute peak, and Maru and Clem (at his best) in TvZ are doing things at a level I haven’t yet seen in my rewatching. Peak Inno’s parade pushing madness is still not far off, but Zergs weren’t quite as relentless as they are these days, and he didn’t have that transition to a brutal defensive game down like those guys manage.
On February 25 2024 00:49 Mizenhauer wrote: While doing some research, I happened upon this gem. I'm still pretty certain Zerg micro peaked right here. (I guess people could move their right hand in 2015).
bUt A Low Na mAStER PLAyeR WoUld wiN the GSL iF He PlayEd HoTS
I mean if people claimed this it would be silly, but the claim is usually that a decent GM player would win one of the early WoL GSLs. Which I think they largely would.
The claim that a casual GM player could win one of the first GSL seasons, sure, they would have a good chance. But even then it would rely on them figuring out the busted builds and allins everyone was doing to get to a macro game.
Besides, the early GSL seasons were so far removed from even the seasons 1 year later in terms of skill and understanding, let alone 2013 onwards. The fact people think any GM now would win tournaments in HotS is weird, there were many HotS players who had been pros training in teamhouses for 5-10 years prior.
Probably not HotS. HotS players were already lightyears ahead of WoL players. I would say a 6.5k EU player would have a very strong chance in any premiere HotS, Korean or otherwise, if you give them two months to study that era's builds and practice. WoL would be a slaughter. Those WoL guys compared to players of today look very one-dimensional, except maybe in the micro department, but micro is really for the most part more to do with reaction speed and mechanical dexterity, which has also improved throughout the years, albeit the slowest. It's the multitasking, eAPM, and understanding of every aspect of the game, and complex armies controls that have improved by leaps and bounds.
Byun and various EU players (hello Joona Goatala), and several modern Korean players have proven that the whole teamhouse thing wasn't all it's made out to be. I myself don't get it. Starcraft was never a team sport to begin with. You can practice with whomever online at your own leisure. The first impression I got of the Korean teamhouses was: damn, this looks uncomfortable. Their contracts stipulate many hours of mandatory practice, and they seem to get very little privacy, and the idea of a private life goes out the window. Not necessarily ideal training conditions.
On February 25 2024 00:49 Mizenhauer wrote: While doing some research, I happened upon this gem. I'm still pretty certain Zerg micro peaked right here. (I guess people could move their right hand in 2015).
bUt A Low Na mAStER PLAyeR WoUld wiN the GSL iF He PlayEd HoTS
I mean if people claimed this it would be silly, but the claim is usually that a decent GM player would win one of the early WoL GSLs. Which I think they largely would.
The claim that a casual GM player could win one of the first GSL seasons, sure, they would have a good chance. But even then it would rely on them figuring out the busted builds and allins everyone was doing to get to a macro game.
Besides, the early GSL seasons were so far removed from even the seasons 1 year later in terms of skill and understanding, let alone 2013 onwards. The fact people think any GM now would win tournaments in HotS is weird, there were many HotS players who had been pros training in teamhouses for 5-10 years prior.
Byun and various EU players (hello Joona Goatala), and several modern Korean players have proven that the whole teamhouse thing wasn't all it's made out to be. I myself don't get it. Starcraft was never a team sport to begin with. You can practice with whomever online at your own leisure. The first impression I got of the Korean teamhouses was: damn, this looks uncomfortable. Their contracts stipulate many hours of mandatory practice, and they seem to get very little privacy, and the idea of a private life goes out the window. Not necessarily ideal training conditions.
They've proven it how exactly? By winning once the teamhouses disbanded? I'll give you ByuN, although news of the death of Proleague likely didn't help
On February 25 2024 10:30 Perceivere wrote: First post here. Hello. Hailing from reddit as ArchivesTraveler
When it comes to zerg, micro isn't the focus anyway. There's a plethora of things you have to juggle, and if you focus that hard on your micro, chances are you're neglecting important factors in what would otherwise be more optimal (yet still human) play.
I remember when Scarlett was known for her penchant for excellent creep spread. And then Serral circa 2018 came, and not only becoming better at spreading creep, but was excelling in every other area as well. This generation of players may be a smaller pool, but they have the skills and game depth of knowledge in spades, far superior to the early eras. Moreover, LotV is a more complex, richer iteration of SC2. Just looking at the differences in army compositions alone is enough evidence of the improvement of...well, almost everything.
Well it’s quite true. The previous era skill ceiling was quite low.
People will argue “there was more competition 50 pros pushing each others to the limit”, but 45 of them are most likely b tier players that will never threaten any of the top dogs
Right now we are witnessing the highest skill era of sc2
Such an absolutely insane take. The exact opposite of what's true. Complete denial of reality.
It's absolutely the case now, in 2024, that there are only say 5 players who are expected to win tournaments.
2013-2016 had a far, far, far greater variety in champions. Even making back to back playoffs in GSL was a huge achievement. The player pool was so deep that someone who hadn't even made it out of Code A could potentially win (it happened, both Dear and Zest won Code S the first time they got to the ro32). Sometimes even the champions wouldn't reach the ro32 the next season (INno in 2016 season 1).
That's not the point. Of course with a greater pool of talents, you'll see a greater variety of champions in the initial stages of the game. The game was far less developed back then in virtually every way, except for the pro gaming infrastructure. When you have an undeveloped game, you'll get a number of players cooking up a variety of builds and strategies never seen before, which creates a scenario in which many people can get a strong chance at holding the trophy, if they can throw enough wrenches into the works. Case in point: sOs. Over time, however, these builds/strats just keep narrowing to fewer ones that actually can work, because most of them simply got figured out, or players developed the mechanical skills to deal with them, while also newer plays were developed, often requiring more APM and multitasking. This process takes years to develop, and we now see players far more polished and knowledgeable than the version of themself from 5 years ago, let alone 10 years.
These strategies have been narrowed because LotV killed the earlygame and made the game faster so its just more about mechanics now than actual strategy...
On February 25 2024 00:49 Mizenhauer wrote: While doing some research, I happened upon this gem. I'm still pretty certain Zerg micro peaked right here. (I guess people could move their right hand in 2015).
bUt A Low Na mAStER PLAyeR WoUld wiN the GSL iF He PlayEd HoTS
I mean if people claimed this it would be silly, but the claim is usually that a decent GM player would win one of the early WoL GSLs. Which I think they largely would.
The claim that a casual GM player could win one of the first GSL seasons, sure, they would have a good chance. But even then it would rely on them figuring out the busted builds and allins everyone was doing to get to a macro game.
Besides, the early GSL seasons were so far removed from even the seasons 1 year later in terms of skill and understanding, let alone 2013 onwards. The fact people think any GM now would win tournaments in HotS is weird, there were many HotS players who had been pros training in teamhouses for 5-10 years prior.
Probably not HotS. HotS players were already lightyears ahead of WoL players. I would say a 6.5k EU player would have a very strong chance in any premiere HotS, Korean or otherwise, if you give them two months to study that era's builds and practice. WoL would be a slaughter. Those WoL guys compared to players of today look very one-dimensional, except maybe in the micro department, but micro is really for the most part more to do with reaction speed and mechanical dexterity, which has also improved throughout the years, albeit the slowest. It's the multitasking, eAPM, and understanding of every aspect of the game, and complex armies controls that have improved by leaps and bounds.
Byun and various EU players (hello Joona Goatala), and several modern Korean players have proven that the whole teamhouse thing wasn't all it's made out to be. I myself don't get it. Starcraft was never a team sport to begin with. You can practice with whomever online at your own leisure. The first impression I got of the Korean teamhouses was: damn, this looks uncomfortable. Their contracts stipulate many hours of mandatory practice, and they seem to get very little privacy, and the idea of a private life goes out the window. Not necessarily ideal training conditions.
A 6.5K EU player is a pretty decent pro, there’s currently Heromarine and Showtime at 6.7 and 6.6 respectively, then a wee gap to whoever is 8th on the ladder at 6.3, don’t recognise the nick.
I mean you’re talking the best European players, possibly the best non-Koreans outside of Serral/Clem/Reynor. I mean yeah somebody like that I could see prospering if sent back in time, but others claim like a non-pro stock GM could which I just feel there’s no way.
Agree and disagree on team houses, their track record is pretty undeniable. I do feel aspects of them from what I’ve heard sound sub-optimal, or into the realm of diminishing returns if we’re talking purely on producing StarCraft players. On a human level I also believe too much is sacrificed in wider development and it won’t suit all personalities (see Byun).
Equally it took a very long time for a non teamhouse-raised player to break into the S tier of SC2 players for any period. Stephano showed he could occasionally dance with some of the top Koreans, but I don’t think he could have won say, a Code S or a Blizzcon. When you did see that breakthrough it was quite a while after that regime, and the Proleague competition that dovetailed neatly with team houses, in-house under wraps grinding for the upcoming match.
In Brood War I mean nobody has broken into the top level in like, 15+ years outside of that system? And it’s not as if it hasn’t been consistently popular in Korea. Soma perhaps but I’m unsure if he spent time in one despite not having a pro career in the Kespa days, someone can correct me!
There are some big advantages in all being together, in a camaraderie sense as well as just an ease of collaborating. Me and my buddies absolutely could coach each other and brainstorm remotely, but we’d get more done in a LAN. Having done LANs for years, apart from the joy of trying out about 15 different mechanical keyboards, a rare pleasure indeed, you notice everyone has all sorts of quirks with their setup, how they physically move their hands.
Plus having some elite StarCraft players who are teammates and who literally live with you in your workplace has certain advantages. You can collectively work on new stuff together and keep it in-house (Slayers and their memorable blue flame build springs to mind) Sickness aside you’re never going to not have practice partners available, or folks to analyse games with because well, you’re in work and you don’t have to worry about syncing schedules with folks to get high quality practice. Especially as if you’re an elite, elite player it’s hard to find practice partners who aren’t your direct competitors.
I do think the European Zerg HivemindTM and how they’ve replicated some of that, or indeed innovated in a remote sense has worked really well. Reynor rather famously practicing for a likely Maru showdown at Katowice with a few high-tier, but decidedly very sub-Maru Terran players teaming up against him in archon mode was pretty inspired. 2/3 players who individually couldn’t lay a glove on Maru together can play at a level even he can’t, pretty cool stuff.
But as I said earlier I do think things can be excessive and hit a point of diminishing returns too if we’re talking team houses. Work smarter, not harder as they say. But, as they also say, horses for courses. Perhaps the team house structure, or something similar is a better fit for the average Korean culturally, I’d be intrigued to hear the thoughts of someone with more knowledge here!
On February 25 2024 10:30 Perceivere wrote: First post here. Hello. Hailing from reddit as ArchivesTraveler
When it comes to zerg, micro isn't the focus anyway. There's a plethora of things you have to juggle, and if you focus that hard on your micro, chances are you're neglecting important factors in what would otherwise be more optimal (yet still human) play.
I remember when Scarlett was known for her penchant for excellent creep spread. And then Serral circa 2018 came, and not only becoming better at spreading creep, but was excelling in every other area as well. This generation of players may be a smaller pool, but they have the skills and game depth of knowledge in spades, far superior to the early eras. Moreover, LotV is a more complex, richer iteration of SC2. Just looking at the differences in army compositions alone is enough evidence of the improvement of...well, almost everything.
Well it’s quite true. The previous era skill ceiling was quite low.
People will argue “there was more competition 50 pros pushing each others to the limit”, but 45 of them are most likely b tier players that will never threaten any of the top dogs
Right now we are witnessing the highest skill era of sc2
Such an absolutely insane take. The exact opposite of what's true. Complete denial of reality.
It's absolutely the case now, in 2024, that there are only say 5 players who are expected to win tournaments.
2013-2016 had a far, far, far greater variety in champions. Even making back to back playoffs in GSL was a huge achievement. The player pool was so deep that someone who hadn't even made it out of Code A could potentially win (it happened, both Dear and Zest won Code S the first time they got to the ro32). Sometimes even the champions wouldn't reach the ro32 the next season (INno in 2016 season 1).
That's not the point. Of course with a greater pool of talents, you'll see a greater variety of champions in the initial stages of the game. The game was far less developed back then in virtually every way, except for the pro gaming infrastructure. When you have an undeveloped game, you'll get a number of players cooking up a variety of builds and strategies never seen before, which creates a scenario in which many people can get a strong chance at holding the trophy, if they can throw enough wrenches into the works. Case in point: sOs. Over time, however, these builds/strats just keep narrowing to fewer ones that actually can work, because most of them simply got figured out, or players developed the mechanical skills to deal with them, while also newer plays were developed, often requiring more APM and multitasking. This process takes years to develop, and we now see players far more polished and knowledgeable than the version of themself from 5 years ago, let alone 10 years.
These strategies have been narrowed because LotV killed the earlygame and made the game faster so its just more about mechanics now than actual strategy...
I have a theory that Blizzard designed LotV specifically to nerf $o€
On February 25 2024 10:30 Perceivere wrote: First post here. Hello. Hailing from reddit as ArchivesTraveler
When it comes to zerg, micro isn't the focus anyway. There's a plethora of things you have to juggle, and if you focus that hard on your micro, chances are you're neglecting important factors in what would otherwise be more optimal (yet still human) play.
I remember when Scarlett was known for her penchant for excellent creep spread. And then Serral circa 2018 came, and not only becoming better at spreading creep, but was excelling in every other area as well. This generation of players may be a smaller pool, but they have the skills and game depth of knowledge in spades, far superior to the early eras. Moreover, LotV is a more complex, richer iteration of SC2. Just looking at the differences in army compositions alone is enough evidence of the improvement of...well, almost everything.
Well it’s quite true. The previous era skill ceiling was quite low.
People will argue “there was more competition 50 pros pushing each others to the limit”, but 45 of them are most likely b tier players that will never threaten any of the top dogs
Right now we are witnessing the highest skill era of sc2
Such an absolutely insane take. The exact opposite of what's true. Complete denial of reality.
It's absolutely the case now, in 2024, that there are only say 5 players who are expected to win tournaments.
2013-2016 had a far, far, far greater variety in champions. Even making back to back playoffs in GSL was a huge achievement. The player pool was so deep that someone who hadn't even made it out of Code A could potentially win (it happened, both Dear and Zest won Code S the first time they got to the ro32). Sometimes even the champions wouldn't reach the ro32 the next season (INno in 2016 season 1).
That's not the point. Of course with a greater pool of talents, you'll see a greater variety of champions in the initial stages of the game. The game was far less developed back then in virtually every way, except for the pro gaming infrastructure. When you have an undeveloped game, you'll get a number of players cooking up a variety of builds and strategies never seen before, which creates a scenario in which many people can get a strong chance at holding the trophy, if they can throw enough wrenches into the works. Case in point: sOs. Over time, however, these builds/strats just keep narrowing to fewer ones that actually can work, because most of them simply got figured out, or players developed the mechanical skills to deal with them, while also newer plays were developed, often requiring more APM and multitasking. This process takes years to develop, and we now see players far more polished and knowledgeable than the version of themself from 5 years ago, let alone 10 years.
These strategies have been narrowed because LotV killed the earlygame and made the game faster so its just more about mechanics now than actual strategy...
I have a theory that Blizzard designed LotV specifically to nerf $o€
Nerfing SoS and buffing macro zerg... slowly killed SoS's career ;(
On February 25 2024 10:30 Perceivere wrote: First post here. Hello. Hailing from reddit as ArchivesTraveler
When it comes to zerg, micro isn't the focus anyway. There's a plethora of things you have to juggle, and if you focus that hard on your micro, chances are you're neglecting important factors in what would otherwise be more optimal (yet still human) play.
I remember when Scarlett was known for her penchant for excellent creep spread. And then Serral circa 2018 came, and not only becoming better at spreading creep, but was excelling in every other area as well. This generation of players may be a smaller pool, but they have the skills and game depth of knowledge in spades, far superior to the early eras. Moreover, LotV is a more complex, richer iteration of SC2. Just looking at the differences in army compositions alone is enough evidence of the improvement of...well, almost everything.
Well it’s quite true. The previous era skill ceiling was quite low.
People will argue “there was more competition 50 pros pushing each others to the limit”, but 45 of them are most likely b tier players that will never threaten any of the top dogs
Right now we are witnessing the highest skill era of sc2
Such an absolutely insane take. The exact opposite of what's true. Complete denial of reality.
It's absolutely the case now, in 2024, that there are only say 5 players who are expected to win tournaments.
2013-2016 had a far, far, far greater variety in champions. Even making back to back playoffs in GSL was a huge achievement. The player pool was so deep that someone who hadn't even made it out of Code A could potentially win (it happened, both Dear and Zest won Code S the first time they got to the ro32). Sometimes even the champions wouldn't reach the ro32 the next season (INno in 2016 season 1).
That's not the point. Of course with a greater pool of talents, you'll see a greater variety of champions in the initial stages of the game. The game was far less developed back then in virtually every way, except for the pro gaming infrastructure. When you have an undeveloped game, you'll get a number of players cooking up a variety of builds and strategies never seen before, which creates a scenario in which many people can get a strong chance at holding the trophy, if they can throw enough wrenches into the works. Case in point: sOs. Over time, however, these builds/strats just keep narrowing to fewer ones that actually can work, because most of them simply got figured out, or players developed the mechanical skills to deal with them, while also newer plays were developed, often requiring more APM and multitasking. This process takes years to develop, and we now see players far more polished and knowledgeable than the version of themself from 5 years ago, let alone 10 years.
These strategies have been narrowed because LotV killed the earlygame and made the game faster so its just more about mechanics now than actual strategy...
I have a theory that Blizzard designed LotV specifically to nerf $o€
Reflecting on this (my first feature), it makes sense that players eventually found more openings. If you watch early 2016 StarCraft II there are numerous high profile matches in which players looked worse than they had the previous years (which totally makes sense given they had been playing HotS for 3-4 years and they had to relearn the game to a degree in Lotv).
I definitely got the feeling that the number of builds expanded over the years, but I think (take this with a grain of salt as I'm not spending another 75 hours tracking every opener in a season of Code S) that, in more recent years, the builds have already homogenized. This makes sense given the players only have to deal with one meaningful patch a year and they've had eight years to optimize Lotv. I'd be really interested to find out exactly how this evolved season by season, but that's too big of an undertaking for anyone.
On February 25 2024 00:49 Mizenhauer wrote: While doing some research, I happened upon this gem. I'm still pretty certain Zerg micro peaked right here. (I guess people could move their right hand in 2015).
bUt A Low Na mAStER PLAyeR WoUld wiN the GSL iF He PlayEd HoTS
I mean if people claimed this it would be silly, but the claim is usually that a decent GM player would win one of the early WoL GSLs. Which I think they largely would.
The claim that a casual GM player could win one of the first GSL seasons, sure, they would have a good chance. But even then it would rely on them figuring out the busted builds and allins everyone was doing to get to a macro game.
Besides, the early GSL seasons were so far removed from even the seasons 1 year later in terms of skill and understanding, let alone 2013 onwards. The fact people think any GM now would win tournaments in HotS is weird, there were many HotS players who had been pros training in teamhouses for 5-10 years prior.
Byun and various EU players (hello Joona Goatala), and several modern Korean players have proven that the whole teamhouse thing wasn't all it's made out to be. I myself don't get it. Starcraft was never a team sport to begin with. You can practice with whomever online at your own leisure. The first impression I got of the Korean teamhouses was: damn, this looks uncomfortable. Their contracts stipulate many hours of mandatory practice, and they seem to get very little privacy, and the idea of a private life goes out the window. Not necessarily ideal training conditions.
How exactly did they? Serral didn't even go full time until years after teams disbanded. ByuN won literally the last season before the disband when every teamhouse player thought their career was over
A far better example you could have given is Rain, who won GSL despite not being on a Kespa team (he was on basically a sponsorship not a team, like players now have). Or INno, who won GSL despite joining a Kespa team a week before the GSL final.
Otherwise, when teamhouses were in effect, they largely produced the best players. Even after the disband, Jin Air, the one team left, were absolutely dominant. Maru, Rogue, and Trap were cruising.
On February 25 2024 10:30 Perceivere wrote: First post here. Hello. Hailing from reddit as ArchivesTraveler
When it comes to zerg, micro isn't the focus anyway. There's a plethora of things you have to juggle, and if you focus that hard on your micro, chances are you're neglecting important factors in what would otherwise be more optimal (yet still human) play.
I remember when Scarlett was known for her penchant for excellent creep spread. And then Serral circa 2018 came, and not only becoming better at spreading creep, but was excelling in every other area as well. This generation of players may be a smaller pool, but they have the skills and game depth of knowledge in spades, far superior to the early eras. Moreover, LotV is a more complex, richer iteration of SC2. Just looking at the differences in army compositions alone is enough evidence of the improvement of...well, almost everything.
Well it’s quite true. The previous era skill ceiling was quite low.
People will argue “there was more competition 50 pros pushing each others to the limit”, but 45 of them are most likely b tier players that will never threaten any of the top dogs
Right now we are witnessing the highest skill era of sc2
Such an absolutely insane take. The exact opposite of what's true. Complete denial of reality.
It's absolutely the case now, in 2024, that there are only say 5 players who are expected to win tournaments.
2013-2016 had a far, far, far greater variety in champions. Even making back to back playoffs in GSL was a huge achievement. The player pool was so deep that someone who hadn't even made it out of Code A could potentially win (it happened, both Dear and Zest won Code S the first time they got to the ro32). Sometimes even the champions wouldn't reach the ro32 the next season (INno in 2016 season 1).
That's not the point. Of course with a greater pool of talents, you'll see a greater variety of champions in the initial stages of the game. The game was far less developed back then in virtually every way, except for the pro gaming infrastructure. When you have an undeveloped game, you'll get a number of players cooking up a variety of builds and strategies never seen before, which creates a scenario in which many people can get a strong chance at holding the trophy, if they can throw enough wrenches into the works. Case in point: sOs. Over time, however, these builds/strats just keep narrowing to fewer ones that actually can work, because most of them simply got figured out, or players developed the mechanical skills to deal with them, while also newer plays were developed, often requiring more APM and multitasking. This process takes years to develop, and we now see players far more polished and knowledgeable than the version of themself from 5 years ago, let alone 10 years.
These strategies have been narrowed because LotV killed the earlygame and made the game faster so its just more about mechanics now than actual strategy...
I have a theory that Blizzard designed LotV specifically to nerf $o€
I mean it's also ironic to say team houses weren't what they were made out to be when even in the aftermath of the Korean scene falling apart the one team that was still somewhat in place dominated. Maru and Rogue found a ton of success during that time period.
And as others have said it has been proven to be the most consistent method at developing top sc pros.
Byun and various EU players (hello Joona Goatala), and several modern Korean players have proven that the whole teamhouse thing wasn't all it's made out to be. I myself don't get it. Starcraft was never a team sport to begin with.
Perhaps to start getting it you need to consider that in the early 2000s it was very hard to come across replays and there was almost no content online, let alone people explaining the game as content creators. Hell, this forum was created to fill the need of a place to talk about BW mechanics and strategies in what... 2008? (someone maybe could do a recap of tl.net history.. that would be cool).
On February 20 2024 07:28 Mizenhauer wrote: Form is temporary, class is permanent.
Yet MMA is not on the list!
MVP is the only "GOAT" who doesn't have permanent class, shown in how he had to escape Korea when Kespa switched, and shown in that he didn't transfer his form between expansions. He won 2011 and that is basically it. All the other 9 players would've made him into their MKP punching bag. MC, MMA, TaeJa, Polt and Life are all GOATs with more longevity than him. Serral, Maru, Rogue, INnoVation, Dark, Life, TaeJa, MC > MVP and there are probably people that I am forgetting. He's probably top 10, but I am not even sure of it.
On February 20 2024 07:28 Mizenhauer wrote: Form is temporary, class is permanent.
Yet MMA is not on the list!
MVP is the only "GOAT" who doesn't have permanent class, shown in how he had to escape Korea when Kespa switched, and shown in that he didn't transfer his form between expansions. He won 2011 and that is basically it. All the other 9 players would've made him into their MKP punching bag. MC, MMA, TaeJa, Polt and Life are all GOATs with more longevity than him. Serral, Maru, Rogue, INnoVation, Dark, Life, TaeJa, MC > MVP and there are probably people that I am forgetting. He's probably top 10, but I am not even sure of it.
You could almost have a point, but then you mention TaeJa and Polt
I don't get the point of these counterfactual comparisons.
2024-Serral would probably beat 2018-Serral. Does that mean his 2018 achievements are worth less than those of 2024?
Of course today's skill level is higher. But that is not particularly surprising if you take into account that today's players can build on all the game knowledge and innovations that has been accumulated over the last 14 years (including a variety of figured out strategies, scouting and interpreting scouting information, optimized settings and mechanics, ...). Why would you compare a player with that advantage to player without head-to-head?
And that is nothing sc2-specific but holds true for almost all sports or even for life in general. I hope most of us would be wiser, more efficient and just overall better in what they are doing than they were 10 years ago.
On February 27 2024 00:51 FFXthebest wrote: Like Artosis has mention on many occasions
“A diamond player would win the GSL’s back in WOL”
Personally I would say a master player would win all the WOL GSLs
Absolutely delusional. Through and through.
I barely play SC2 anymore and maybe get back online for a few days each year. I still float from masters 1-2 when I do, the general level of skill really hasn't evolved much in the last 10 years.
And I am absolutely nowhere near as good as any pro was in WoL. Pros, let alone the champions, have a bag of countless builds they can do in an instant. No one outside of high GM does. People have 1 or 2 builds per matchup. There are even GMs who canon rush and 2 rax every game and don't learn transitions.
A 6K+ player who remembered the busted builds from WoL? Sure, they could win the first few GSL seasons. But they'd also win 100 games in a row against masters players.
On February 20 2024 07:28 Mizenhauer wrote: Form is temporary, class is permanent.
Yet MMA is not on the list!
MVP is the only "GOAT" who doesn't have permanent class, shown in how he had to escape Korea when Kespa switched, and shown in that he didn't transfer his form between expansions. He won 2011 and that is basically it. All the other 9 players would've made him into their MKP punching bag. MC, MMA, TaeJa, Polt and Life are all GOATs with more longevity than him. Serral, Maru, Rogue, INnoVation, Dark, Life, TaeJa, MC > MVP and there are probably people that I am forgetting. He's probably top 10, but I am not even sure of it.
You could almost have a point, but then you mention TaeJa and Polt
They're definitely in the top 20 GOATS at the least, and he said MVP is probably still top 10.
I agree with ejozl though, MVP's form did start to fall off (Nestea's too ofc), while MC outlived both MVP and Nestea. So it suggests that his class wasn't even that permanent. I know he had wrist issues and whatnot, but I don't think that's much of an excuse since every person has to take care of themselves and try to avoid that, so we can't give too much benefit of the doubt. Taeja, Polt, Life, even Innovation, all ended their careers on a high note (for their first retirements, or in Life's case ban lol) while MVP's faded.
On February 27 2024 00:51 FFXthebest wrote: Like Artosis has mention on many occasions
“A diamond player would win the GSL’s back in WOL”
Personally I would say a master player would win all the WOL GSLs
Absolutely delusional. Through and through.
I barely play SC2 anymore and maybe get back online for a few days each year. I still float from masters 1-2 when I do, the general level of skill really hasn't evolved much in the last 10 years.
And I am absolutely nowhere near as good as any pro was in WoL. Pros, let alone the champions, have a bag of countless builds they can do in an instant. No one outside of high GM does. People have 1 or 2 builds per matchup. There are even GMs who canon rush and 2 rax every game and don't learn transitions.
A 6K+ player who remembered the busted builds from WoL? Sure, they could win the first few GSL seasons. But they'd also win 100 games in a row against masters players.
I would say mid masters rather than diamond (high diamond could only maybe win in the very first 1-2 seasons with some memory of the meta/builds and doing mostly 1 base builds like 1/1/1 Marine Tank Raven+Banshee push due to their lower mechanics/understanding), but do you really think that having builds in your bag like 1 base triple robo in PvZ is something that actually matters? There were a ton of shitty builds in the first couple seasons that didn't make sense cus players didn't understand the game well. Players would win with just opening up cloak banshee and winning with 1 banshee.
The skill level and understand of the game did very quickly improve though in just 8-10 months (like by MLG Anaheim), so IMO you'd need to be either a mid masters player with a memory of the meta/maps and enough builds (either performing them or knowing how to react to enough), or a mid GM winging things to win it.
On February 20 2024 07:28 Mizenhauer wrote: Form is temporary, class is permanent.
Yet MMA is not on the list!
MVP is the only "GOAT" who doesn't have permanent class, shown in how he had to escape Korea when Kespa switched, and shown in that he didn't transfer his form between expansions. He won 2011 and that is basically it. All the other 9 players would've made him into their MKP punching bag. MC, MMA, TaeJa, Polt and Life are all GOATs with more longevity than him. Serral, Maru, Rogue, INnoVation, Dark, Life, TaeJa, MC > MVP and there are probably people that I am forgetting. He's probably top 10, but I am not even sure of it.
You could almost have a point, but then you mention TaeJa and Polt
They're definitely in the top 20 GOATS at the least, and he said MVP is probably still top 10.
I agree with ejozl though, MVP's form did start to fall off (Nestea's too ofc), while MC outlived both MVP and Nestea. So it suggests that his class wasn't even that permanent. I know he had wrist issues and whatnot, but I don't think that's much of an excuse since every person has to take care of themselves and try to avoid that, so we can't give too much benefit of the doubt. Taeja, Polt, Life, even Innovation, all ended their careers on a high note (for their first retirements, or in Life's case ban lol) while MVP's faded.
If you're gonna count Mvp's lackluster end of career against him, you should also hold TaeJa's failure of a comeback in 2019 and 2020 against him.
On February 20 2024 07:28 Mizenhauer wrote: Form is temporary, class is permanent.
Yet MMA is not on the list!
MVP is the only "GOAT" who doesn't have permanent class, shown in how he had to escape Korea when Kespa switched, and shown in that he didn't transfer his form between expansions. He won 2011 and that is basically it. All the other 9 players would've made him into their MKP punching bag. MC, MMA, TaeJa, Polt and Life are all GOATs with more longevity than him. Serral, Maru, Rogue, INnoVation, Dark, Life, TaeJa, MC > MVP and there are probably people that I am forgetting. He's probably top 10, but I am not even sure of it.
You could almost have a point, but then you mention TaeJa and Polt
They're definitely in the top 20 GOATS at the least, and he said MVP is probably still top 10.
I agree with ejozl though, MVP's form did start to fall off (Nestea's too ofc), while MC outlived both MVP and Nestea. So it suggests that his class wasn't even that permanent. I know he had wrist issues and whatnot, but I don't think that's much of an excuse since every person has to take care of themselves and try to avoid that, so we can't give too much benefit of the doubt. Taeja, Polt, Life, even Innovation, all ended their careers on a high note (for their first retirements, or in Life's case ban lol) while MVP's faded.
If you're gonna count Mvp's lackluster end of career against him, you should also hold TaeJa's failure of a comeback in 2019 and 2020 against him.
I wouldn't hold Innovation's comeback in 2023 against him, or TY or sOs's comeback in 2023-2024, so I wouldn't hold Taeja's against him either. Going to the military and failing to make it back in doesn't say too much, that break in your career messes with things plus you're in a different stage of life after. We've seen lots of evidence of that with other good players like MMA, Stats, MC, Ryung, Bomber, etc. struggling or failing to make it in. (Ryung made it after trying a long time and is now a regular again). And to me MMA and Stats are top 15 GOATs, MC didn't try as many times so i assume he wasn't as serious about it but to me he's also a top 15 GOAT. And I forgot soO too.
On February 27 2024 00:51 FFXthebest wrote: Like Artosis has mention on many occasions
“A diamond player would win the GSL’s back in WOL”
Personally I would say a master player would win all the WOL GSLs
Absolutely delusional. Through and through.
I barely play SC2 anymore and maybe get back online for a few days each year. I still float from masters 1-2 when I do, the general level of skill really hasn't evolved much in the last 10 years.
And I am absolutely nowhere near as good as any pro was in WoL. Pros, let alone the champions, have a bag of countless builds they can do in an instant. No one outside of high GM does. People have 1 or 2 builds per matchup. There are even GMs who canon rush and 2 rax every game and don't learn transitions.
A 6K+ player who remembered the busted builds from WoL? Sure, they could win the first few GSL seasons. But they'd also win 100 games in a row against masters players.
Yeah people underestimate what it takes to be a top player. Even destiny who was never anywhere near the level of top GSL players got GM (na) last time he streamed sc.
Also yeah through diamond and masters it's still mostly a game of simple math. Mine more make more win more. BoX build orders and mind games would make the average ladder player crumble.
On February 20 2024 07:28 Mizenhauer wrote: Form is temporary, class is permanent.
Yet MMA is not on the list!
MVP is the only "GOAT" who doesn't have permanent class, shown in how he had to escape Korea when Kespa switched, and shown in that he didn't transfer his form between expansions. He won 2011 and that is basically it. All the other 9 players would've made him into their MKP punching bag. MC, MMA, TaeJa, Polt and Life are all GOATs with more longevity than him. Serral, Maru, Rogue, INnoVation, Dark, Life, TaeJa, MC > MVP and there are probably people that I am forgetting. He's probably top 10, but I am not even sure of it.
You could almost have a point, but then you mention TaeJa and Polt
They're definitely in the top 20 GOATS at the least, and he said MVP is probably still top 10.
I agree with ejozl though, MVP's form did start to fall off (Nestea's too ofc), while MC outlived both MVP and Nestea. So it suggests that his class wasn't even that permanent. I know he had wrist issues and whatnot, but I don't think that's much of an excuse since every person has to take care of themselves and try to avoid that, so we can't give too much benefit of the doubt. Taeja, Polt, Life, even Innovation, all ended their careers on a high note (for their first retirements, or in Life's case ban lol) while MVP's faded.
If you're gonna count Mvp's lackluster end of career against him, you should also hold TaeJa's failure of a comeback in 2019 and 2020 against him.
I got the feeling Taeja just gave it a crack, see how it goes rather than going super serious comeback trail on it. Hey if I was back from military service, and was formerly one of the world’s best StarCraft 2 players, I’d at least give it a go for a bit.
He showed the odd glimpse but alas, wasn’t to be.
Also @Yoshi I almost always agree with you or find value in your chat but what are you smoking on the bolded? :p Innovation had one of the most disappointing fading aways in the scene, where he clearly still had that residual skill to occasionally have a decent run, but never really bothered to get properly back in shape for like, actually 2/3 years.
As a huge Innovation fan too, that initial rise of HoTS Inno was one of the scariest players relative to the field we’ve seen in the game. But the guy was phoning it in after he won WESG, I believe he’s actually said as such
Edit - I actually forgot he was back from military, I was referring to his last couple of years of pre-military SC
On February 27 2024 00:51 FFXthebest wrote: Like Artosis has mention on many occasions
“A diamond player would win the GSL’s back in WOL”
Personally I would say a master player would win all the WOL GSLs
Absolutely delusional. Through and through.
I barely play SC2 anymore and maybe get back online for a few days each year. I still float from masters 1-2 when I do, the general level of skill really hasn't evolved much in the last 10 years.
And I am absolutely nowhere near as good as any pro was in WoL. Pros, let alone the champions, have a bag of countless builds they can do in an instant. No one outside of high GM does. People have 1 or 2 builds per matchup. There are even GMs who canon rush and 2 rax every game and don't learn transitions.
A 6K+ player who remembered the busted builds from WoL? Sure, they could win the first few GSL seasons. But they'd also win 100 games in a row against masters players.
Ya I’ll take the words of pros and caster who does this for a living rather than some forum poster lol
Skill haven’t evolved the last 10 years? Sure buddy keep telling yourself that. The skill was pure laughable back in the days. The games were laughably bad but highly entertaining. Basically a lower level of the AM server ladder clown fiesta
Inno joined team Acer to take it easy and not practice as much lol. Not to mention the WTL team manager wanting 10 replays during the week to prove he was practicing.
When he was actually forced to practice we would get glimpses of the machine.
On February 20 2024 07:28 Mizenhauer wrote: Form is temporary, class is permanent.
Yet MMA is not on the list!
MVP is the only "GOAT" who doesn't have permanent class, shown in how he had to escape Korea when Kespa switched, and shown in that he didn't transfer his form between expansions. He won 2011 and that is basically it. All the other 9 players would've made him into their MKP punching bag. MC, MMA, TaeJa, Polt and Life are all GOATs with more longevity than him. Serral, Maru, Rogue, INnoVation, Dark, Life, TaeJa, MC > MVP and there are probably people that I am forgetting. He's probably top 10, but I am not even sure of it.
You could almost have a point, but then you mention TaeJa and Polt
They're definitely in the top 20 GOATS at the least, and he said MVP is probably still top 10.
I agree with ejozl though, MVP's form did start to fall off (Nestea's too ofc), while MC outlived both MVP and Nestea. So it suggests that his class wasn't even that permanent. I know he had wrist issues and whatnot, but I don't think that's much of an excuse since every person has to take care of themselves and try to avoid that, so we can't give too much benefit of the doubt. Taeja, Polt, Life, even Innovation, all ended their careers on a high note (for their first retirements, or in Life's case ban lol) while MVP's faded.
If you're gonna count Mvp's lackluster end of career against him, you should also hold TaeJa's failure of a comeback in 2019 and 2020 against him.
I got the feeling Taeja just gave it a crack, see how it goes rather than going super serious comeback trail on it. Hey if I was back from military service, and was formerly one of the world’s best StarCraft 2 players, I’d at least give it a go for a bit.
He showed the odd glimpse but alas, wasn’t to be.
I would agree if Taeja did it like INnoVation in 2023 - one try at GSL and then poof, but he tried and failed for more than a year before calling it quits.
On February 20 2024 07:28 Mizenhauer wrote: Form is temporary, class is permanent.
Yet MMA is not on the list!
MVP is the only "GOAT" who doesn't have permanent class, shown in how he had to escape Korea when Kespa switched, and shown in that he didn't transfer his form between expansions. He won 2011 and that is basically it. All the other 9 players would've made him into their MKP punching bag. MC, MMA, TaeJa, Polt and Life are all GOATs with more longevity than him. Serral, Maru, Rogue, INnoVation, Dark, Life, TaeJa, MC > MVP and there are probably people that I am forgetting. He's probably top 10, but I am not even sure of it.
You could almost have a point, but then you mention TaeJa and Polt
They're definitely in the top 20 GOATS at the least, and he said MVP is probably still top 10.
I agree with ejozl though, MVP's form did start to fall off (Nestea's too ofc), while MC outlived both MVP and Nestea. So it suggests that his class wasn't even that permanent. I know he had wrist issues and whatnot, but I don't think that's much of an excuse since every person has to take care of themselves and try to avoid that, so we can't give too much benefit of the doubt. Taeja, Polt, Life, even Innovation, all ended their careers on a high note (for their first retirements, or in Life's case ban lol) while MVP's faded.
If you're gonna count Mvp's lackluster end of career against him, you should also hold TaeJa's failure of a comeback in 2019 and 2020 against him.
I got the feeling Taeja just gave it a crack, see how it goes rather than going super serious comeback trail on it. Hey if I was back from military service, and was formerly one of the world’s best StarCraft 2 players, I’d at least give it a go for a bit.
He showed the odd glimpse but alas, wasn’t to be.
Also @Yoshi I almost always agree with you or find value in your chat but what are you smoking on the bolded? :p Innovation had one of the most disappointing fading aways in the scene, where he clearly still had that residual skill to occasionally have a decent run, but never really bothered to get properly back in shape for like, actually 2/3 years.
As a huge Innovation fan too, that initial rise of HoTS Inno was one of the scariest players relative to the field we’ve seen in the game. But the guy was phoning it in after he won WESG, I believe he’s actually said as such
Edit - I actually forgot he was back from military, I was referring to his last couple of years of pre-military SC
I was trying to stick to the perspective of "Inno won a WESG/WC vs 2019 Serral late in his career" mentioned in these articles, I do agree he faded and never saw WESG as that big of an indicator of greatness/bestness. But i also forgot that WESG was 2 years before he retired, always felt like it was right before to me lol.
On February 27 2024 00:51 FFXthebest wrote: Like Artosis has mention on many occasions
“A diamond player would win the GSL’s back in WOL”
Personally I would say a master player would win all the WOL GSLs
Absolutely delusional. Through and through.
I barely play SC2 anymore and maybe get back online for a few days each year. I still float from masters 1-2 when I do, the general level of skill really hasn't evolved much in the last 10 years.
And I am absolutely nowhere near as good as any pro was in WoL. Pros, let alone the champions, have a bag of countless builds they can do in an instant. No one outside of high GM does. People have 1 or 2 builds per matchup. There are even GMs who canon rush and 2 rax every game and don't learn transitions.
A 6K+ player who remembered the busted builds from WoL? Sure, they could win the first few GSL seasons. But they'd also win 100 games in a row against masters players.
Yeah people underestimate what it takes to be a top player. Even destiny who was never anywhere near the level of top GSL players got GM (na) last time he streamed sc.
Also yeah through diamond and masters it's still mostly a game of simple math. Mine more make more win more. BoX build orders and mind games would make the average ladder player crumble.
Most regular casters are like, decent Masters thru Grandmasters players these days right? With few exceptions that I can think of.
Then you go listen to a Harambo (Harstem/Lambo) side-stream cast where they’re free to properly analyse as they want rather than have the expectation to entertain and hype (although they often do the latter hype l).
A Serral or a Reynor will be playing at like 350 APM and calling their own game in minute detail at times, largely correctly!
This is no diss on our many entertaining casters but they really call more general things, what is happening as it unfolds. Pros will go through like the 5 different possibilities stemming from one different gas timing, or what a chrono on a particular building is likely foreshadowing.
It’s a whole different ballgame being a decent progamer versus a solid GM player.
I remember Harstem pointing out that my beloved Trap used to religiously gate scout in PvT, with a slightly forward gateway, or as forward as was safe to cut a little rush distance. Then he’d harass an SCV or two with his pesky probe, and chrono an adept straight across the map. In combination this often allowed him to damage an SCV or two sufficiently that his adept could arrive and 2 shot rather than 3 shot SCVs and this consistently was netting him multiple worker kills from a few slight tweaks to his BO.
That’s the kind of thinking a pro does routinely, and another pro will pick up on a lot more readily than us mere mortals:
On February 20 2024 07:28 Mizenhauer wrote: Form is temporary, class is permanent.
Yet MMA is not on the list!
MVP is the only "GOAT" who doesn't have permanent class, shown in how he had to escape Korea when Kespa switched, and shown in that he didn't transfer his form between expansions. He won 2011 and that is basically it. All the other 9 players would've made him into their MKP punching bag. MC, MMA, TaeJa, Polt and Life are all GOATs with more longevity than him. Serral, Maru, Rogue, INnoVation, Dark, Life, TaeJa, MC > MVP and there are probably people that I am forgetting. He's probably top 10, but I am not even sure of it.
You could almost have a point, but then you mention TaeJa and Polt
They're definitely in the top 20 GOATS at the least, and he said MVP is probably still top 10.
I agree with ejozl though, MVP's form did start to fall off (Nestea's too ofc), while MC outlived both MVP and Nestea. So it suggests that his class wasn't even that permanent. I know he had wrist issues and whatnot, but I don't think that's much of an excuse since every person has to take care of themselves and try to avoid that, so we can't give too much benefit of the doubt. Taeja, Polt, Life, even Innovation, all ended their careers on a high note (for their first retirements, or in Life's case ban lol) while MVP's faded.
If you're gonna count Mvp's lackluster end of career against him, you should also hold TaeJa's failure of a comeback in 2019 and 2020 against him.
I got the feeling Taeja just gave it a crack, see how it goes rather than going super serious comeback trail on it. Hey if I was back from military service, and was formerly one of the world’s best StarCraft 2 players, I’d at least give it a go for a bit.
He showed the odd glimpse but alas, wasn’t to be.
Also @Yoshi I almost always agree with you or find value in your chat but what are you smoking on the bolded? :p Innovation had one of the most disappointing fading aways in the scene, where he clearly still had that residual skill to occasionally have a decent run, but never really bothered to get properly back in shape for like, actually 2/3 years.
As a huge Innovation fan too, that initial rise of HoTS Inno was one of the scariest players relative to the field we’ve seen in the game. But the guy was phoning it in after he won WESG, I believe he’s actually said as such
Edit - I actually forgot he was back from military, I was referring to his last couple of years of pre-military SC
I was trying to stick to the perspective of "Inno won a WESG/WC vs 2019 Serral late in his career" mentioned in these articles, I do agree he faded and never saw WESG as that big of an indicator of greatness/bestness. But i also forgot that WESG was 2 years before he retired, always felt like it was right before to me lol.
So did I, this series has both inspired me to revisit some classics, as well as doing some real Liquipedia refreshes. If it weren’t for that I would be similarly discombobulated, that thing you get when you’re older where something you think happened last week was 10 years ago, and vice versa.
I mean generally when I come to arguediscuss I try to be well-informed. SC2 history is maybe the only area I vaguely succeed in hitting that goal though!
On February 27 2024 00:51 FFXthebest wrote: Like Artosis has mention on many occasions
“A diamond player would win the GSL’s back in WOL”
Personally I would say a master player would win all the WOL GSLs
Absolutely delusional. Through and through.
I barely play SC2 anymore and maybe get back online for a few days each year. I still float from masters 1-2 when I do, the general level of skill really hasn't evolved much in the last 10 years.
And I am absolutely nowhere near as good as any pro was in WoL. Pros, let alone the champions, have a bag of countless builds they can do in an instant. No one outside of high GM does. People have 1 or 2 builds per matchup. There are even GMs who canon rush and 2 rax every game and don't learn transitions.
A 6K+ player who remembered the busted builds from WoL? Sure, they could win the first few GSL seasons. But they'd also win 100 games in a row against masters players.
Ya I’ll take the words of pros and caster who does this for a living rather than some forum poster lol
Skill haven’t evolved the last 10 years? Sure buddy keep telling yourself that. The skill was pure laughable back in the days. The games were laughably bad but highly entertaining. Basically a lower level of the AM server ladder clown fiesta
Please for the love of all that is holy, go watch a game from 2014-2016 say. That’s about 10 years ago at the tail end, and still as long ago as 8 years which is close enough.
Mizenhauer has even helpfully embedded many classic VoDs of classic matches that helped augment and cement the various GOAT pantheon’s cases for being there.
I hadn’t watched any of those in forever myself, I was expecting there to be more of a gap but really it’s very recognisably modern and high level play.
On February 20 2024 07:28 Mizenhauer wrote: Form is temporary, class is permanent.
Yet MMA is not on the list!
MVP is the only "GOAT" who doesn't have permanent class, shown in how he had to escape Korea when Kespa switched, and shown in that he didn't transfer his form between expansions. He won 2011 and that is basically it. All the other 9 players would've made him into their MKP punching bag. MC, MMA, TaeJa, Polt and Life are all GOATs with more longevity than him. Serral, Maru, Rogue, INnoVation, Dark, Life, TaeJa, MC > MVP and there are probably people that I am forgetting. He's probably top 10, but I am not even sure of it.
You could almost have a point, but then you mention TaeJa and Polt
Yes, Polt had good longevity.
TaeJa swings a lot in the GOAT conversation, depending on how much you value 10k$ tournaments. But it's not fair to look at the HSCs today and say that he just won HSCs, HSCs back then had qualifiers and so already this tournament should be weighed much higher, because every Korean player had the chance to participate if they so desired. Invitationals shouldn't be given much serious weight.
The same can be said of sOs, he will swing a lot depending on how much you value Blizzcons and the winner takes all Katowice.
The GOATs before LotV were definitely #1 Life, then you'd have MVP, MC, TaeJa, sOs in almost any order that you wish. MMA, INnoVation were ever so slightly below.
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MVP was also not an old man, lol. He won 60% of his earnings while between the age of 19-20, if you wanna praise an old man then make Nestea the GOAT, he won his 60% of earnings while age 28 and above. MC is the same age as MVP and won the recent oldschool player invitational and was relevant in both HotS and even LotV. I think it's easy to say that he's a more talented player. What makes MVP great is probably work ethic, a good mind and good preparation.
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As for the discussion about early GSL skill, I think it's way more fair to say, would those players be able to qualify for GSL today, or get to GM easily and to that the answer is yes. All these GSL players would wreck the average masters player, if they were in their prime and tried to adapt to the current meta. I even think that many of the Terrans would do well, because Terran is quite OP today.
On February 20 2024 07:28 Mizenhauer wrote: Form is temporary, class is permanent.
Yet MMA is not on the list!
MVP is the only "GOAT" who doesn't have permanent class, shown in how he had to escape Korea when Kespa switched, and shown in that he didn't transfer his form between expansions. He won 2011 and that is basically it. All the other 9 players would've made him into their MKP punching bag. MC, MMA, TaeJa, Polt and Life are all GOATs with more longevity than him. Serral, Maru, Rogue, INnoVation, Dark, Life, TaeJa, MC > MVP and there are probably people that I am forgetting. He's probably top 10, but I am not even sure of it.
You could almost have a point, but then you mention TaeJa and Polt
Yes Polt had good longevity.
TaeJa swings a lot in the GOAT conversation, depending on how much you value 10k$ tournaments. But it's not fair to look at the HSC today and say that he just won HSC's, HSC's back then had qualifiers and so already this tournament should be weighed much higher, because every Korean player had the chance to participate if they so desired. Invitationals shouldn't be given much serious weight.
The same can be said of sOs, he will swing a lot depending on how much you value Blizzcons and the winner takes all Katowice.
The GOAT's before LotV were definitely #1 Life, then you'd have MVP, MC, TaeJa, sOs in almost any order that you wish. MMA, INnoVation were ever so slightly below.
MVP was also not an old man, lol. He won 60% of his earnings while between the age of 19-20, if you wanna praise an old man then make Nestea the GOAT, he won his 60% of earnings while age 28 and above. MC is the same age as MVP and won the recent oldschool player invitational and was relevant in both HotS and even LotV. I think it's easy to say that he's a more talented player. What makes MVP great is probably work ethic, a good mind and good preparation.
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As for the discussion about early GSL skill, I think it's way more fair to say, would that player be able to qualify for GSL today, or get to GM easily and to that the answer is yes. All these GSL players would wreck the average masters player, if they were in their prime and tried to adapt to the current meta. I think that even many of the Terrans would do well, because Terran is quite powerful today.
I wasn't discussing Polt's longevity, more so the fact that you value Mvp's escape to EU negatively (which I don't disagree with in itself), but then you mention Polt and Taeja as if they didn't do the exact same thing with NA. I agree Taeja had decent runs in weekenders, but it's the same debate as with Serral and WCS EU - he beat 3 to 4 good players, more or less from the ro8 onwards, but the rest was a freebie. And that's not mentioning the Dreamhack format which is very not Premier-like in my opinion (bo3 up until semis) but that is entirely subjective and not relevant here. And i also won't discuss the fact that you put Taeja above INnoVation before LotV, which is VERY debatable
Like I said, depends how you look at TaeJa and sOs. How I view it: #1 Life #2 MVP, MC, TaeJa, sOs #3 MVP, MC, TaeJa, sOs #4 MVP, MC, TaeJa, sOs, INnoVation #5 MVP, MC, TaeJa, sOs, INnoVation, MMA #6 TaeJa, sOs, INnoVation, MMA #7 TaeJa, sOs, MMA
As I’ve joked in the past, my life’s ambition is to be the first person to accurately rate Taeja, he seems to almost exclusively be grossly over or underrated!
Either folks just point out his number of premiers and rate him really highly while skirting over the quality of the fields for some of those runs, or they’ll dismiss them out of hand and his record against the top players of his day, including those who went on to frequent GOAT lists such as these.
On February 27 2024 21:23 WombaT wrote: As I’ve joked in the past, my life’s ambition is to be the first person to accurately rate Taeja, he seems to almost exclusively be grossly over or underrated!
Either folks just point out his number of premiers and rate him really highly while skirting over the quality of the fields for some of those runs, or they’ll dismiss them out of hand and his record against the top players of his day, including those who went on to frequent GOAT lists such as these.
I believe in you! It's my belief that to be safe in such cases, it's fair to rate someone between the 2 extremes / your rating system should account for such extremes and find a reasonable middleground.
I was curious and decided to look at Taeja's 3 Premiere wins in 2014 and 2013, to see if I'm remembering wrong or if maybe there was decent justification for people putting him in the Top ~3 before LotV:
2014 IEM Shenzen Group stage: Beat Life and MMA, and lost to Jim (who got #1 and also beat Life), advancing 2-1 while 2 GOATs failed to qualify. Playoffs: Beat Zest, Jaedong, Solar.
2014 Dreamhack Summer Group stage: Beat Harstem and Oz. Nothing impressive. Playoffs: Beat Sjaak, Patience, Jaedong, HerO (not great but he did beat MC 2-0).
2014 HSC #9 Group stage: Beat roof, Patience, lost to Scarlett who advanced #1. Nothing impressive. Playoffs: Beat Jaedong, Scarlett, MC (4-0).
2013 Dreamhack Winter, $30k first place Group stage: Beat Innovation, sOs, ForGG, SjoW, advanced 4-0 over 2 other GOATS. Playoffs: Beat HerO, MMA, Life in the finals, Life again in the grand finals.
2013 HSC #8 Group stage: Beat Scarlett and MoMaN, advancing 2-0. Nothing impressive. Playoffs: Beat HerO, Symbol, Hyun. Ok nothing special.
Seems like a lot of wins vs players like Innovation, MMA, MC, sOs, Jaedong, and especially Life. Just looking at this, I'm not seeing the narrative of "Taeja mainly only had to beat B tier KRs and not top Code S players". You can maybe excuse players like Innovation sOs and say that they cared more about KR events. But Life? Hmmmm.
Looking back at WCS 2014, he beat soO, Innovation, and lost to Life 2-3. Really too sad, if only he got that WCS win over that matchfixing bastard, he probably would have beaten MMA. Taeja had the winrate and H2H to do so over a larger sample size. I feel a similar argument tends to be used for Rain: he didn't rack up a ton ton of results, but you could tell he was great and could have won more.
But him beating Innovation even at an event as big as the WCS finals as well as many weekender events, I think makes it pretty reasonable if someone feels Taeja is above Innovation. Same with being over MC, sOs, Zest, MMA. I wonder how much more Life would have won if Taeja wasn't there to stop him sometimes.
On February 27 2024 21:23 WombaT wrote: As I’ve joked in the past, my life’s ambition is to be the first person to accurately rate Taeja, he seems to almost exclusively be grossly over or underrated!
Either folks just point out his number of premiers and rate him really highly while skirting over the quality of the fields for some of those runs, or they’ll dismiss them out of hand and his record against the top players of his day, including those who went on to frequent GOAT lists such as these.
Unapologetic TaeJa stan here and I've said it before, but TaeJa has always occupied the number 1 spot in my heart's power ranking. Nobody before or since has ever made me as excited to watch SC2. He was like the Terran version of Life in terms of excitement of play, which is fitting since they had such a rivalry. His games were often frantic since he wasn't very good at scouting drops/prisms and keeping defending units at home, leading to lots of crazy base trade situations. But my jaw was always hitting the floor when he would micro himself out of impossible situations. He was the first pro I ever witnessed to consistently medivac juggle marauders and tanks to dodge stalker shots, and he was easily the best in his day at target firing speed banes, and all those sorts of flashy plays that gave me the nerd chills. Like you said, he had excellent records against the top KR players of his time and did do well in several GSLs, but my biggest disappointment was that he never took one down to shut all the haters up. Alas, preparation style tournaments were not his forte.
But since he won so many weekenders, we always got to see his goofy smile, awkward applause for himself, and watch his worst matchup of all, TvC (TaeJa vs Champagne Bottle). Happy days.
But yeah, as far as where to put him on an actual GOAT list by the time he retired I have no idea. I just know that I would have rated him higher than a lot of other players that had won GSLs by that point.