• Second most final appearances in Code S history • 1-1 in world championship finals • Had the best ZvZ in the world for 5+ years (2012-2017)
Notable tournament finishes
2013 Code S Season 3: 2nd place
2014 Code S Season 1: 2nd place
2014 Code S Season 2: 2nd place
2014 Code S Season 3: 2nd place
2014 DreamHack Open Stockholm: 2nd place
2015 KeSPA Cup Season 2: 1st place
2015 IEM Gamescom: 2nd place
2017 Code S Season 1: 2nd place
2017 Code S Season 2: 2nd place
2017 WCS Global Finals: 2nd place
2019 IEM World Championship: 1st place
2020 TeamLiquid Starleague 5: 1st place
soO enters this list at #7 by being a fixture in the grand finals of StarCraft II's biggest events. Despite never winning Code S, he reached the finals an astounding six times across a span of eleven seasons. soO also reached the grand finals of both the WCS Global Finals and IEM World Championship, in the latter of which he finally won the first "tier-1" title of his career.
His eight combined finals appearances in Korean Individual League (Code S, OSL, SSL) and world championship tournaments surpasses the count of other greats such as Rogue (7), INnoVation (5), Zest (3), and TY (6), making him one of the game's most accomplished, long-term championship contenders.
soO was the embodiment of lore-accurate Zerg with his swarming macro style, and he trampled opponents to death with superior numbers. However, he was also tremendously quick and finesseful in his army movements, which was well reflected in his masterful Zerg vs Zerg play.
soO's trophy count is far lesser than the other players on this list, but his overall resume is still one of the most impressive in all of competitive StarCraft II.
Career Overview: Fall Seven Times, Rise Eight Times
Like many of the players on this list, soO began his StarCraft II career in May of 2012 as a KeSPA player making the official transition out of Brood War. His adjustment process occurred at a more 'normal' speed compared to the three previous players on this list (Rain, sOs, TY), and he would make his first notable run in Code S Season 3 of 2013—around sixteen months after he switched to full-time StarCraft II.
"Yo, HyuK, you figure we'll still be playing StarCraft II in 7 years?" "Not a f***ing chance, man."
There, he blew past his previous best finish of top 16, and reached the grand finals while picking up wins against elite players such as Bomber, INnoVation, PartinG, and Soulkey. However, the grand final match against a peak-form Dear went poorly, resulting in a 2-4 loss. Still, there was a silver lining to be gleaned from the defeat. After all, second place was a fantastic result for a player relatively new to SC2, and taking two maps off of Dear was quite respectable considering the surging Protoss had gone 16-2 prior to the finals. Who knew what the future might hold for the talented, 20-year-old Zerg?
Indeed, soO used that runner-up finish as a rocket-powered springboard, and made 2014 an unbelievable breakout year. He reached the finals in all three seasons of Code S, setting a new record by reaching four consecutive Code S finals. Only the great Mvp and Nestea had even reached two consecutive finals prior to that, making soO's mark of four feel like an unbreakable, historic accomplishment (which later served to make Maru's fourth consecutive Code S title in 2019 all the more remarkable).
Unfortunately for soO, his finals opponents continued to be some of the most fearsome players of the time—Zest, Classic, and INnoVation. They handed him three more painful finals defeats, branding soO as StarCraft II's first kong. Adding insult to injury, soO picked up another silver medal at DreamHack Stockholm, losing to Solar in the finals after starting the tournament 14-0.
Making you feel old through pictures.
Whether it was due to demoralization or simply the innate difficulty of playing championship-level StarCraft II over a long period of time, soO's Korean Individual League results fell off considerably in 2015-2016. For two years straight, he was stuck as a middle-of-the-pack player, failing to reach the RO8 in any Code S or SSL event.
Still, this phase of soO's career was not without some bright spots. He enjoyed his best season of Proleague in 2015, helping SKT win their first SC2 championship as arguably the team's best player (a somewhat tricky designation given how SKT's super-squad let them share the workload evenly). Also, he found success in some of the smaller individual tournaments, finishing second place at IEM Gamescom and even winning the KeSPA Cup in 2015.
While soO did say that winning the KeSPA cup was a wonderful experience that gave him motivation going forward, it ultimately ended up being one that 'didn't really count.' Both community narrative and soO's own expectations demanded that he win what the Korean fans called a "tier-1" tournament, and so the curse went unbroken in the minds of all those involved.
The dissolution of KeSPA Proleague in October of 2016 was a major turning point in StarCraft II, sending players down wildly different paths. One could have reasonably expected that soO—who had basically become a Proleague specialist by the end of 2016—would join the wave of retirees. Instead, out of nowhere, he made a huge individual league comeback in 2017.
soO abruptly broke his Code S dry spell, blazing a path of destruction through Season 1 of 2017. Players like Classic, Dark, TY, and sOs all fell in his path as he reached the Code S finals for a fifth time. Alas, the ultimate result for soO was the same as in his previous five tries: defeat to a player enjoying one of their career peaks. This time, '17 Stats was the executioner, bringing the ax down in a 4-2 finals victory.
Being the subject of an awful cosmic joke didn't slow soO down. He came back just as strong in Code S Season 2, making another impressive run to the finals that included wins over Rogue, Classic, and Maru. soO must have felt a sense of relief that it was GuMiho who emerged from the other side of the bracket, marking the first time he wasn't playing one of the undisputed best players in the world. Sure, GuMiho had won over many converts with his stellar play during his finals run, but he didn't have the aura of '14 Zest or '14 INnoVation. He was clearly soO's best chance of breaking the kong curse. But, in the end, GuMiho proved to be a worthy vessel of the StarCraft gods' cruel will, and defeated soO 4-2.
Once again, soO had made Code S history in the most unfortunate way. He now sat atop the mountain with six finals appearances, surpassing the venerable Mvp's five. Obviously, soO already had the record for most runner-ups locked up since 2014, with two silver medals being the most any other player had achieved. There would be no repeat of 2014's triple Code S silvers as soO exited Season 3 in the RO16, but it was no mercy—there was an even more disastrous fate in store.
Back-to-back Code S finals appearances were more than enough to earn soO a spot at the WCS Global Finals, where he would compete for the first time since 2014. Fortune actually seemed to be on soO's side at first, with a slip-up from Rogue allowing him to advance easily from his RO16 group with wins against WCS Circuit players Nerchio and Neeb. The quarterfinal draw against GuMiho was sure to have brought back some unpleasant thoughts, but soO vindicated himself in the rematch with a 3-2 win. soO got another lucky draw against a foreigner in the semifinals, as he ended SpeCial's underdog run in a 3-0 sweep.
And so, once again, soO reached the precipice of vindication, and was set to face off against Rogue in the grand finals. In hindsight, this was soO's most doomed finals of all—we now know Rogue was on the verge of one of the highest individual peaks in SC2 history, where he would win double world championships at BlizzCon and IEM Katowice. But, at the time, it actually started off well for soO as he took a 2-1 lead. There was a moment where fans might have believed that soO would finally have his day, and that Rogue—who was overhyped for wins in some smaller events—would finally get exposed.
Of course, disaster struck again, this time in a way that felt even more unfair than in the previous six defeats. Game four on Catalena saw soO draw the short straw in terms of starting positions, spawning at the one spot where the Creep spread pattern prevented him from building a full natural wall at a normal time. Intentional or not, Rogue exploited this with a Speedling all-in, tying the series. From there, the series was all Rogue, as he took two more maps to clinch his the world championship and hand soO his costliest grand finals defeat yet.
Unscrupulous fan calls for match-fixing.
For a player who had just suffered unfathomable disappointment, soO started off 2018 surprisingly well with a top four run in Code S Season 1. However, everything went downhill from there—he suffered group stage elimination in the following two Code S Seasons, and he failed to garner notable results in any secondary events. It seemed that whatever spark soO had rekindled in the 2017 campaign had been completely snuffed out, finally swallowed up by the despair of so many defeats. And, then, when the StarCraft II world expected it least, that spark came back as a roaring inferno.
soO entered IEM Katowice 2019 as an afterthought, with players like Serral, Rogue, Maru, Dark, and Stats being counted among the top contenders for the championship. soO was still solid enough to get through the RO76 play-in stage, but a 0-3 start in his RO24 group seemed to affirm his status as a player whose best days were far behind him. However, in perhaps the biggest (and long overdue) stroke of luck in his career, soO cheated death. He won his final two matches in the group, and all of the other results broke in a way that he won a four-way tie on map score and advanced to the playoffs.
Finally getting one good break seemed to make all the difference, as it triggered soO to go on one of the most improbable underdog runs ever. First, he took out Zest in the RO12—this win wasn't the craziest as Zest was prone to wild swings in form at the time. However, soO seemed to be drawing completely dead against his RO8 opponent in Serral. The Finnish Phenom had won the WCS Global Championship just three months prior, and his success even had European Zergs talking about how the aggressive, risk-heavy style of Korean ZvZ was flawed. Their "random" all-ins shouldn't work against someone who was playing optimally, and Serral was proving that point.
After splitting the first two games (neither of which were particularly competitive), game three on Year Zero would be the turning point in both the series and soO's career. In an epic showdown that would become an instant game of the year contender, soO stuck to Lair tech while Serral looked to Hydralisks and eventually Hive. soO was certain to lose if he let Serral stabilize with superior tech, so he had no choice but to do what he did best: attack. The game teetered on a knife's edge for over fifteen minutes, with a new wave of Roach-Ravager crashing in whenever Serral finally got some breathing room. The game came down to a final skirmish at the 27-minute mark, with soO’s final five Roaches and single Ravager taking on Serral’s mix of one Roach, one Ravager, a pair of Hydralisks and five Drones. When the dust settled, soO had emerged with the victory. Riding that wave of momentum, soO took game four and moved onto the RO4.
It cannot be overstated how much of a shock it was to see Serral defeated by the long slumping soO. Serral was the best player in the world and felt utterly invincible, but soO had actually dictated the tempo of the series and taken a 3-1 victory. As it turned out, his experience from years of Roach wars against the likes of Soulkey, ByuL, Rogue was still valid, and just enough to usurp the newly crowned global champion.
While a player like soO could never fully shed the aura of impending doom around him, the victory over Serral on Year Zero steeled him for the final push to the summit. He took down herO 3-1 in the semifinal series, moving on to face his old Code S finals foe Stats in the grand finals. Another soul-crushing defeat seemed to be on the horizon after Stats went up 2-0, but this time, soO found the keys to victory. He took four straight wins in a row, winning a 4-2 comeback victory to dispel the curse that had afflicted him for five years. He was undeniably and incontrovertibly, a champion.
After this career validating victory, soO's career finally started to wind down in an irreversible way. There was simply no longer a need to go all out to try and win that elusive championship. Amusingly enough, this more relaxed version of soO managed to take one last trophy for the road. In 2020's all-online Team Liquid Starleague 5, soO took out INnoVation in the finals, getting a small bit of revenge for his GSL finals loss six years prior. While soO recently made a comeback of sorts after completing his military service, it's been more of an epilogue than a continuation. He's content to compete at a more casual pace, knowing that he has nothing left to prove.
The Tools: Mid-Game Magic
soO is arguably the greatest Lair-stage player of all-time, and at the very least, he deserves that distinction in Heart of the Swarm. Prior to the Legacy of the Void economy changes, StarCraft II was much more mid-game oriented and featured more game-deciding battles between tier-1/2 troops (okay, the turtling was a lot more insufferable if it got past the mid-game, but nevermind that for now). In this environment, soO excelled by being the most mechanically sound Zerg. He had the best Creep spread, hit the most injects, and simply made more units than any other Zerg player. These macro superpowers helped soO grind his opponents into the dirt with a combination of speed and brute force.
While soO was strong in all three match-ups, his mechanical gifts made him especially good at Zerg vs Zerg. Within a year of his Code S debut, soO had already become the best player in the mirror, with him and Soulkey setting the meta for the match-up. When looking at win-rates in major competitions, soO stands out as the best overall ZvZ player for nearly five years during 2012-2017.
Due to soO's comparative weakness in the late-game, his mid-game oriented style could be a double-edged sword. To fully leverage his macro advantage and finish games before they went too long, he had to take aggressive fights off Creep and charge into defended bases. While this approach won him countless games, it sometimes led to defeat in situations where other Zergs could have played things safer and won with a late-game transition.
The rigidity of soO's style translated poorly to the StarCraft II metas of 2018 and afterward, leading to an overall decline in results. And yet, he still won his world championship in 2019 with his stubborn way of playing. In sum, the overall balance of soO's strengths and weaknesses was well in the positive, allowing him to achieve historic greatness.
The Numbers: Silvers and Gold
Korean Individual League (Code S, OSL, SSLᵃ) finishes From KeSPA entry into StarCraft II (Code S Season 4 2012) to the end of 2017
a: SSL 2017 was excluded due its 10-player format. b: Includes one RO16 finish in a 16-player SSL tournament + one RO12 finish when SSL used a 16-player double elim-format. c: Includes one RO16 finish in a 16-player SSL tournament.
Korean Individual League (Code S, OSL, SSLᵃ) win-loss records From KeSPA entry into StarCraft II (Code S Season 4 2012) to the end of 2017
a: SSL 2017 was excluded due its 10-player format. b: Played in a 16-player, double-elim format. soO's primary peer group consists of Maru, Zest, sOs, and INnoVation—players who were generally considered the most successful in the scene between 2012 and 2017. Interestingly enough, none of these players enjoyed a hyper-consistent individual league stretch like #8 TY or #10 Rain, but they were clearly the dominant and defining players of the time.
While the greatest triumph of soO’s career came at the IEM World Championships in 2019, soO secures his place among the greatest of all time largely on the back of his historic performances in GSL Code S during this mid 2010's period. soO equaled Mvp's mark of four Code S finals appearances by the end of 2014, and surpassed him in 2017 after reaching finals number five and six. Maru eventually broke soO’s record by making it to a seventh final in 2022 (ten total now), but soO remains above all others in the GSL.
While soO's record in Code S finals is dismal, an amusing side effect of reaching so many finals is that soO has one of the best Code S RO8 + RO4 records in history at 13-2 in matches (87% win-rate). Mvp is the only player who is clearly better with a 11-1 record (92%), and even winningest Code S player of all-time Maru has a surprisingly weaker 23-10 record in comparison (there was a long period before 2018 where his lack of Code S success was a major criticism).
Zerg vs Zerg statistics in offline matches vs Korean players onlyᵃ From KeSPA entry into StarCraft II (Code S Season 4 2012) to the end of 2017
a: To correct for record inflation from international tournaments during an era where the Korea-World gap was at its widest.
While soO was a strong all-around player, his ZvZ is worth singling out for some extra attention. During his 'prime' run during 2012-2017, soO was the best ZvZ player in the world. He beat out nearly all of his contemporaries in terms of both wins and win-rate, and often by a comfortable margin at that (for a time, Soulkey was a worthy rival). For ranges of a year and longer, only Nestea's initial 2010-2011 stretch and Serral's 2018+ stretch surpass soO in terms of raw win-rate in offline matches. However, cross era comparisons are tricky here due to generally higher win-rates for top players in Serral and Nestea's eras.
Appearances in Korean Individual Leagueᵃ and world championship-tierᵇ tournament finals
a: SSL 2017 was excluded due its 10-player format b: WCS Global Finals 2013-2019, IEM Katowice 2014-2023 (except 2016), WESG 2016-2018, Gamers8 2020
When it comes to final appearances in Korean Individual Leagues and world championships, soO has one of the highest counts in SC2 history. Maru's farming of the GSL in recent years has left everyone else in the dust, but soO still manages to come in third place on the list despite having ceased to be a major title threat in 2019 (in that regard, his 2020 TSL win is rather baffling).
StarCraft II Proleague win-loss records (map score)ᵃᵇ
a: The 2011/12 season was excluded as it was played in a hybrid Brood War + SC2 format. b: Playoff statistics included. c: Classic's nine games as Terran (2-7) were excluded.
While soO's Proleague record falls short of absolute best players in league history, he firmly belongs in the very next tier down. SKT's calling card during the Proleague era was its super-teams that had both top-end strength and depth, which meant none of their players had to shoulder the heavy game count of workhorses such as Flash and herO. Still, soO excelled whenever he was called upon, and achieved a strong 64.4% win-rate over 90 games played (equal to his teammate Classic).
The Placement:
Ranking soO among the best of all time begs the question: what is the value of second place when compared to a championship? soO's 0-6 record in Code S finals has to be held against him, but it's unclear how much he should be docked for his repeated failures.
The type and size of an event plays a big factor. For example, consider the recent iterations of the Super Tournament that have sixteen players in a single-elimination bracket. A player only needs to win three matches (nine maps) to reach the finals. Technically, you could even finish second place with a sub-50% map win-rate. In this kind of tournament, it's hard to know the value of a runner-up finish without really digging into each match.
Code S, however, is an entirely different beast. Much of Code S's prestige is derived from how it was the most rigorous test of skill in StarCraft II for nearly a decade. The 32-player versions of the tournament required players to win seven series and at least 18 maps in order to claim the championship. Not only that, but older versions of the tournament featured high-level players from the very beginning, with championship-level players often falling out in the first round. soO may have finished second six times, but winning 6/7 of the matches needed to get to the finals was still a very difficult feat. In my mind, reaching the finals of these 32-player Code S tournaments is nearly as impressive as winning the entire season.
Overall tournament records of soO and his Code S finals opponents
While Dear and GuMiho won Code S with decisively better records, the margins in other series are much closer. soO's overall map record was close to Zest, INnoVation, and Stats, and he even recorded a higher map win-rate than Classic. While there is an extra premium that should be placed on the finals, it shouldn't completely overshadow the combined results from the RO32 to RO4.
Taking all that into account, soO's record of six Code S runner-ups, one BlizzCon runner-up, and one IEM Katowice championship duly earns him the #7 spot on this list.
The Games
Games were selected primarily based on how well they represented a players' style, not entertainment value.
soO vs Serral: 2019 IEM World Championships - Quarterfinals (March, 2 2019)
(Timestamp: 21:00)
In one of the greatest ZvZ’s of all time, soO defied popular convention by sticking to roaches and ravagers all game despite Serral transitioning into hive tech and investing in hydralisks and vipers. After more than 20 minutes of non stop fighting from both sides, soO managed to upset the reigning WCS World Champion in one of the most tense finales you’ll ever see in StarCraft II.
soO vs Dark: 2015 KeSPA Cup Season 2 - Finals (July 12, 2015)
soO seemed dead to rights after Dark’s early pool meant his zerglings arrived in soO’s main base before a single fighting unit had spawned for soO. But, against all odds soO held. Dark followed it up with a baneling bust that should have ended the game for a second time, but soO’s perfect worker splits bought enough time for his roaches to arrive and mop up the last of Dark’s speedlings. Having done the impossible, soO continued to pump out roaches before walking across the map en route to winning the KeSPA Cup—giving soO his first Premier Event victory of his career.
soO vs Flash: 2014 Code S Season 3 - Round of 16 (September 5, 2014)
Fresh off a win against Zest in the finals of IEM Toronto, Flash had the wind in his sails heading into the Round of 16 of Season 3 of Code S. He started game one against soO as well as he could, netting 36 worker kills across the first 12 minutes of the game. But, soO clawed back in the game one with one good engagement after another. By the 17 minute mark soO was actually ahead in supply and after another few battles, soO was able to take the game, and eventually the match, to end the Flash hype as quickly as it had begun.
soO vs Stats: 2019 IEM World Championship - Finals (March 3, 2019)
(Timestamp: 3:52:30)
A big part of being a great macro player is having the ability to survive until you can macro. Down 0-2 to Stats in the biggest series of his career, soO did just that. With Stats going for a 3-base timing, soO deftly matched him every step of the way without over or undercommiting to Drones. As a result, he was able to beat back the Protoss forces with ease, and launch the counterattack that would be his first step toward the world championship trophy.
Written by: Mizenhauer Editors: CosmicSpiral, Wax Statistics and records: Aligulac.com and Liquipedia Images and Photos: Bart Oerbekke (ESL), Kevin Chang, Abraham Engelmark (DreamHack), unnamed photographer for Blizzard.
I think this is incredibly deserved, but I do not weigh 1st place finishes as high as most people do. I think in blind games such as starcraft, where coinflips have decided finals, it's silly to think there's a massive difference between 1st and 2nd. There's a reason games like TFT and Apex Legends reward players almost as much as 1st for getting 2nd/3rd/4th.
Plus, look how long this guy was relevant for. He was winning tournaments all the way back in 2012 up until 2020. And those were basically the strongest years of SC2.
I'm so fucking happy that soO got that monkey off of his back and won a tier 1 tournament because he had been SO GOOD for so long that it would have been a tragedy if he had never won one.
He's had an absolutely stellar career. Definitely one of the all time greats.
IDK. I agree with soO being in the top 10 but over sOs is bold. So the rest are probably among Inno, Mvp, Maru, Serral, Rogue and maybe one of Zest/Stats?
On January 24 2024 14:00 digmouse wrote: IDK. I agree with soO being in the top 10 but over sOs is bold. So the rest are probably among Inno, Mvp, Maru, Serral, Rogue and maybe one of Zest/Stats?
how can you argue Mvp is a "greatest player of all time" when he's only played 1 expansion? It's across ALL TIME!! Not just WoL.
On January 24 2024 15:49 Poopi wrote: I expected soO at #7, was not disappointed. So Dark got kicked probably? Zest at 6, mvp at 5, Serral at 4, then Rogue/INno/Maru?
if dark is not on this list but soO, its a very bad list.
On January 24 2024 15:49 Poopi wrote: I expected soO at #7, was not disappointed. So Dark got kicked probably? Zest at 6, mvp at 5, Serral at 4, then Rogue/INno/Maru?
if dark is not on this list but soO, its a very bad list.
If Dark isn't top 4 and Serral 1/2 it's a clown list.
On January 24 2024 16:40 yht9657 wrote: So... Maru Serral Rogue Inno Dark Zest are locked in top 6 right?
Serral Inno Maru Rogue are 100% lock imo, Dark-Zest-Stats will be fighting for 2 slots, but I think Dark is favored to be in it with a world title.
Considering Mizenhauer values winning a lot in a short amount of time highly, Mvp will also be there
MVP has to be on this list! MC to me is also top ten, he changed the way protoss is played and he still has the record for more gsl for a protoss player. soO doesnt belong in the top 10.
I mentioned this in a previous thread, but soO is fewer than 10 games away from being a bonjwa and potential GOAT. You can't be that close to perfection and not fall in at least the top 10.
He's the best midgame zerg, and arguably the best ZvZ, of all time. Making 4 GSL finals in a row, in an era where no one else even made back to back ro4s, is one of the biggest achievements in the games history. He was a better starleague player than anyone else except Maru.
Some people only care about trophies, but if you care about achievements in any broader sense, he deserves the spot.
"When I was down 0-2, I just thought to myself, god- it's happening again. Maybe this is the limit of my skill? Maybe this is it? But then I thought, let me show everything that I have."
I think it's easy let mvp out at this point. He was only dominant for 2 years or so, and he still lost a ton in foreign tournaments etc. Just won a bunch of gsl's.
On January 24 2024 21:25 Comedy wrote: I think it's easy let mvp out at this point. He was only dominant for 2 years or so, and he still lost a ton in foreign tournaments etc. Just won a bunch of gsl's.
Instead of posting this it would have been more honest for you to say "I never watched Mvp play and I am misinformed about his greatness."
Read TL's article on him from the 2015 GOAT list and maybe you will understand.
4 GSLs, IEM, WCG, MLG, Blizzcon in 2 years is genuinely insane and also being such an innovator in terms of builds.
On January 24 2024 16:44 Charoisaur wrote: Then Stats should also be there considering he has more 2nd places than soO including in 3 world championships and actually won 2 starleagues
On January 24 2024 16:44 Charoisaur wrote: Then Stats should also be there considering he has more 2nd places than soO including in 3 world championships and actually won 2 starleagues
On the other hand, look at who made the list
You already turned on Stats by gushing about other Protoss players.
Given how dominant mvp was (albeit there were far more GSL back then) in a short period of time, he should still be placed pretty well. What’s impressive about mvp was his dismantling of MKP: MarineKing was kind of a ladder god similarly to Bomber, and he had very good results versus the other GSL players, be it in GSL or MLG (his rivalry vs DRG was awesome, before the BL/infestor era), but he was completely hopeless vs mvp.
That’s also why MMA beating mvp and achieving various other great things (like winning a premier in every extension) was kind of a big thing in WoL
I think the top 6 was always set and should be pretty consistent across any GOAT list. soO and sOs falling in after makes sense and they have have something that's set them apart from the next tier.
But beyond that for #9-20 I'd go Stats, Dark, TY, Rain, NesTea, Classic, MC, Taeja, Reynor, Trap, CJ herO, MMA, or something like that. You can really jig all those guys however you want without it being particularly outlandish
On January 24 2024 12:02 serralbest wrote: There are also rankings in China 10.MVP 9.Rain 8.hero 7.rogue 6.zest 5.stats 4.dark 3.innovation 2.maru 1.serral
Rogue pretty low Move him to the 2nd spot and everything looks pretty good
On January 24 2024 12:02 serralbest wrote: There are also rankings in China 10.MVP 9.Rain 8.hero 7.rogue 6.zest 5.stats 4.dark 3.innovation 2.maru 1.serral
Rogue pretty low Move him to the 2nd spot and everything looks pretty good
yeah I agree, this is an incredibly hot take if Rogue got 7th haha, with 4 GSLs and 3 WCs
I agree with the rest of the people that it seems like the remaining six must be maru rogue serral inno mvp zest (roughly), so it looks like Dark is out And fair enough, soO did have a much more dominant peak (even if it was without golds) than Dark, and Dark never really managed to string together anything resembling a reign of dominance. He's probably the single greatest "good player of the game", in that his play passes every eye test, but he simply never got the results to match. I think that stats and trap are kinda in that bucket too though, so maybe not single greatest haha.
Though I do think that mvp's reign at the top is kinda short, at only two years, and his "four GSLs" are boosted by the number of GSLs, he won 4/17 GSLs in a 1yr4mo spread... I wonder if there's any chance his relative lack of longevity kicks him out?
But of course, he is part of THE sc2 experience for most longtime fans, so if we're making a list of the greatest players of all time (and not just the best / most dominant players), that X factor probably keeps him in the list.
If Rogue didnt have to join the miliary, who to say that he couldnt win another IEM or a couple more GSL. As a Maru fanboy, I felt relieve knowing that Rogue couldnt get to G5L before Maru due to that reason, and Maru must somewhat felt the same as well. Imagine having 4 titles in a row and get to watch the guy slowly creeping up from behind like that. And imagine if Rogue somehow make it to the IEM Final against Oliveira, it would be a fucking massacre, not a magical fairy-tale, because thats what Rogue does to storyline. So yeah, anything outside of top 3 is straight-up bad imo, he could might as well be top 1 depending on how we value big time tournament performance.
On January 24 2024 21:25 Comedy wrote: I think it's easy let mvp out at this point. He was only dominant for 2 years or so, and he still lost a ton in foreign tournaments etc. Just won a bunch of gsl's.
Instead of posting this it would have been more honest for you to say "I never watched Mvp play and I am misinformed about his greatness."
Read TL's article on him from the 2015 GOAT list and maybe you will understand.
4 GSLs, IEM, WCG, MLG, Blizzcon in 2 years is genuinely insane and also being such an innovator in terms of builds.
its not just about how many championships he won, its also about how dominant he was, how he changed the game, the builds he had, his macro, his micro, how great he was in big important matches, how smart he was, he was ahead of everyone, i was great to see him play back in the day.
sadly his wrist and other injuries prevent him of winning more tournament and his career was cut short. but even with all those health issues, he was still dominant and doing crazy things.
On January 24 2024 21:25 Comedy wrote: I think it's easy let mvp out at this point. He was only dominant for 2 years or so, and he still lost a ton in foreign tournaments etc. Just won a bunch of gsl's.
Instead of posting this it would have been more honest for you to say "I never watched Mvp play and I am misinformed about his greatness."
Read TL's article on him from the 2015 GOAT list and maybe you will understand.
4 GSLs, IEM, WCG, MLG, Blizzcon in 2 years is genuinely insane and also being such an innovator in terms of builds.
On January 25 2024 04:22 spirit76 wrote: some people dont understand how great MVP was.
its not just about how many championships he won, its also about how dominant he was, how he changed the game, the builds he had, his macro, his micro, how great he was in big important matches, how smart he was, he was ahead of everyone, i was great to see him play back in the day.
sadly his wrist and other injuries prevent him of winning more tournament and his career was cut short. but even with all those health issues, he was still dominant and doing crazy things.
his wrists were THE OTHER ISSUES. the main problem was his back/neck/spine, which put him in constant pain when he was playing the game.
On January 24 2024 21:18 Locutus_ wrote: Serral / Maru / Rogue / MvP / Dark / Zest / Innovation... One of those is out then.
Its Zest or Dark. Hard Call.
I think Zest is out though.
I think Dark might be out because there's absolutely no criteria where Rain > Zest makes sense; Zest won more during the Kespa era than Rain, was good in proleague, and had later accomplishments too. Zest and Dark both deserve to be in the top 10 though.
On January 25 2024 04:22 spirit76 wrote: some people dont understand how great MVP was.
its not just about how many championships he won, its also about how dominant he was, how he changed the game, the builds he had, his macro, his micro, how great he was in big important matches, how smart he was, he was ahead of everyone, i was great to see him play back in the day.
sadly his wrist and other injuries prevent him of winning more tournament and his career was cut short. but even with all those health issues, he was still dominant and doing crazy things.
The complete player, mechanically above his peers, a great series planner and a huge innovator in terms of establishing standard meta play.
I don’t think anyone else has really been all 3, although to be fair it was easier to be innovative in an era where the game was fleshed out a lot less fleshed out.
On January 24 2024 21:25 Comedy wrote: I think it's easy let mvp out at this point. He was only dominant for 2 years or so, and he still lost a ton in foreign tournaments etc. Just won a bunch of gsl's.
Instead of posting this it would have been more honest for you to say "I never watched Mvp play and I am misinformed about his greatness."
Read TL's article on him from the 2015 GOAT list and maybe you will understand.
4 GSLs, IEM, WCG, MLG, Blizzcon in 2 years is genuinely insane and also being such an innovator in terms of builds.
On January 24 2024 12:02 serralbest wrote: There are also rankings in China 10.MVP 9.Rain 8.hero 7.rogue 6.zest 5.stats 4.dark 3.innovation 2.maru 1.serral
Rogue pretty low Move him to the 2nd spot and everything looks pretty good
yeah I agree, this is an incredibly hot take if Rogue got 7th haha, with 4 GSLs and 3 WCs
I agree with the rest of the people that it seems like the remaining six must be maru rogue serral inno mvp zest (roughly), so it looks like Dark is out And fair enough, soO did have a much more dominant peak (even if it was without golds) than Dark, and Dark never really managed to string together anything resembling a reign of dominance. He's probably the single greatest "good player of the game", in that his play passes every eye test, but he simply never got the results to match. I think that stats and trap are kinda in that bucket too though, so maybe not single greatest haha.
Though I do think that mvp's reign at the top is kinda short, at only two years, and his "four GSLs" are boosted by the number of GSLs, he won 4/17 GSLs in a 1yr4mo spread... I wonder if there's any chance his relative lack of longevity kicks him out?
But of course, he is part of THE sc2 experience for most longtime fans, so if we're making a list of the greatest players of all time (and not just the best / most dominant players), that X factor probably keeps him in the list.
I like Dark play style. It was messy, scrappy, and sometimes pure dirty .
Was never that impressed with MVP. I rank him in the same tier as MC and Nestea who were the pioneers for WOL. He gets a bit more “spotlight” than his peers because he plays terran. And terrans usually gets a little more bias love in general.
Greatest WOL terran: MVP Greatest HOTS terran: inno (honourable mention to Taeja) Greatest LOTV terran: Maru
Overall it’s just a list created by the writer, so it’s all fun and games. Personally I would have left out TY and put dark instead, but then again it’s his opinion which we all have one
Would feel a bit weird if Dark wasn't in here, as he's been so good for so long--though perhaps never quite at the level where he was acknowledged as the undisputed best player in the world and his "clutch" stats are a bit lacking.
MVP has to make this list, or basically none of the legacy players makes it in. Incredible innovator and mechanics for his time. When he was healthy, there was everyone else...and then there was MVP. Hard to describe that aura from back in the day after all these years of Sc2.
On January 25 2024 06:45 Glorfindelio wrote: Would feel a bit weird if Dark wasn't in here, as he's been so good for so long--though perhaps never quite at the level where he was acknowledged as the undisputed best player in the world and his "clutch" stats are a bit lacking.
MVP has to make this list, or basically none of the legacy players makes it in. Incredible innovator and mechanics for his time. When he was healthy, there was everyone else...and then there was MVP. Hard to describe that aura from back in the day after all these years of Sc2.
Dark was definitely regarded as the best player in the world in 2016 until he narrowly lost in the global finals, but I do agree him not being in the top 10 would make this list even more controversial. Dark’s lack of individual results in Hots is likely going to be used against him but I don’t think it’s his own fault since SKT was intentionally using him as a zvt sniper back then, resulting in him having world-class zvt but lackluster zvp in an era when Protoss was quite dominant (haven’t seen those in a long time lol).
On January 25 2024 06:45 Glorfindelio wrote: Would feel a bit weird if Dark wasn't in here, as he's been so good for so long--though perhaps never quite at the level where he was acknowledged as the undisputed best player in the world and his "clutch" stats are a bit lacking.
MVP has to make this list, or basically none of the legacy players makes it in. Incredible innovator and mechanics for his time. When he was healthy, there was everyone else...and then there was MVP. Hard to describe that aura from back in the day after all these years of Sc2.
Dark was definitely regarded as the best player in the world in 2016 until he narrowly lost in the global finals, but I do agree him not being in the top 10 would make this list even more controversial. Dark’s lack of individual results in Hots is likely going to be used against him but I don’t think it’s his own fault since SKT was intentionally using him as a zvt sniper back then, resulting in him having world-class zvt but lackluster zvp in an era when Protoss was quite dominant (haven’t seen those in a long time lol).
Boy Dark not being in top 10 would be craaazy wouldnt it. Luckily he def is.
Honestly wouldn't mind if MVP didn't make the list. His reign of dominance lasted less than 2 years and SC2 has been out for 13.5 years. He and Nestea were certainly the two greatest of WoL and they get props for figuring things out before everyone else, but they disappeared before everyone truly got gud. He never played against the vast majority of the other greatest of all timers in their primes like Maru, Serral, Rogue, Dark, Zest etc. He barely got to meet INno and soO in competition and has a losing record against both of them in that admittedly tiny sample size. IMO if he were to be on this list, it would have been at 9 or 10, and anything better is just leaning too hard on nostalgia.
On January 25 2024 14:01 Kitai wrote: Honestly wouldn't mind if MVP didn't make the list. His reign of dominance lasted less than 2 years and SC2 has been out for 13.5 years. He and Nestea were certainly the two greatest of WoL and they get props for figuring things out before everyone else, but they disappeared before everyone truly got gud. He never played against the vast majority of the other greatest of all timers in their primes like Maru, Serral, Rogue, Dark, Zest etc. He barely got to meet INno and soO in competition and has a losing record against both of them in that admittedly tiny sample size. IMO if he were to be on this list, it would have been at 9 or 10, and anything better is just leaning too hard on nostalgia.
Deserves to be on there just for schooling Innovatbum on Akilon Wastes.
On January 24 2024 17:13 spirit76 wrote: MC to me is also top ten, he changed the way protoss is played and he still has the record for more gsl for a protoss player. soO doesnt belong in the top 10.
Most GSLs? Trap won 3 GSL Super Tournaments which are basically equivalent to GSL Open Tournament from 2010.
On January 24 2024 17:13 spirit76 wrote: MC to me is also top ten, he changed the way protoss is played and he still has the record for more gsl for a protoss player. soO doesnt belong in the top 10.
Most GSLs? Trap won 3 GSL Super Tournaments which are basically equivalent to GSL Open Tournament from 2010.
Yeah, except for the small little detail of thousands of people trying to qualify for the Open Seasons and like, 50 (if that) for modern GSLs.
On January 24 2024 17:13 spirit76 wrote: MC to me is also top ten, he changed the way protoss is played and he still has the record for more gsl for a protoss player. soO doesnt belong in the top 10.
Most GSLs? Trap won 3 GSL Super Tournaments which are basically equivalent to GSL Open Tournament from 2010.
Yeah, except for the small little detail of thousands of people trying to qualify for the Open Seasons and like, 50 (if that) for modern GSLs.
A comparison can’t really be made, different eras and all that and different formats.
Still super impressive, I dunno how to weigh it. It’s definitely not half a GSL, that’s a bit low, maybe an ST is equivalent to 3/4 of a GSL?
On January 24 2024 17:13 spirit76 wrote: MC to me is also top ten, he changed the way protoss is played and he still has the record for more gsl for a protoss player. soO doesnt belong in the top 10.
Most GSLs? Trap won 3 GSL Super Tournaments which are basically equivalent to GSL Open Tournament from 2010.
Yeah, except for the small little detail of thousands of people trying to qualify for the Open Seasons and like, 50 (if that) for modern GSLs.
A comparison can’t really be made, different eras and all that and different formats.
Still super impressive, I dunno how to weigh it. It’s definitely not half a GSL, that’s a bit low, maybe an ST is equivalent to 3/4 of a GSL?
There can always be arguments why this or that title is not equal to perfect GSL title. I remember that 2011 (maybe 2012?) argument was made, that it is actually not that easy to fell from Code S to Code A, with exception like last stages of Code S, Code A is superior in quality. Super Tournament and Global Championship are shorter, less money, lesser format etc. I remember that fanboy train of Mvp was perfectly OK with looking the other way when conversation was made about GOAT of early SC2 as one of his 4 GSLs was World Championship - certainly questionable event that was basically invitational.
On the other hand Super Tournament Polt has won was not only stack with massive number of players, it was perhaps GSL event with highest prize pool ever (I think it was a tadbit higher than open seasons). If later Super Tournaments are "lesser" breed, we can start discussing which Code S are superior to which. I don't think it is very healthy argument.
When is it exactly that GSL vs The World, KeSPA Cup, etc became seen as less-thans? Back in 2011, all the GSL side events (except for the purely online stuff with tiny prizepools like Arena of Legends) were seen as legitimate GSL Championships. Mvp of course with his 4, but Polt is undisputedly a GSL Champion. MMA was a 2x GSL Champion and nobody argued that fact.
I think even the Blizzard Cup in 2012 was seen as legit, when exactly did the change occur?
On January 25 2024 14:01 Kitai wrote: Honestly wouldn't mind if MVP didn't make the list. His reign of dominance lasted less than 2 years and SC2 has been out for 13.5 years. He and Nestea were certainly the two greatest of WoL and they get props for figuring things out before everyone else, but they disappeared before everyone truly got gud. He never played against the vast majority of the other greatest of all timers in their primes like Maru, Serral, Rogue, Dark, Zest etc. He barely got to meet INno and soO in competition and has a losing record against both of them in that admittedly tiny sample size. IMO if he were to be on this list, it would have been at 9 or 10, and anything better is just leaning too hard on nostalgia.
So MvP winning 4 GSLs and completely dominating the game, changing the metagame is meh since it happened only over 2 years, but Rain's 6 month lasting dominance earns him spot #10? got it
On January 24 2024 15:49 Poopi wrote: I expected soO at #7, was not disappointed. So Dark got kicked probably? Zest at 6, mvp at 5, Serral at 4, then Rogue/INno/Maru?
What are you smoking bro? Serral is the obvious number 1. Then we can debate between Maru and Rogue. Imo I'll see Serral at 1, Maru at 2, Rogue at 3, Zest at 4, Dark at 5 and Inno at 6. Plus mvp is a bit overrated, he only dominated in 1 year and a half. Sure he was a monster on BW but this is SC2 not SC:B.
On January 25 2024 22:14 RPR_Tempest wrote: When is it exactly that GSL vs The World, KeSPA Cup, etc became seen as less-thans? Back in 2011, all the GSL side events (except for the purely online stuff with tiny prizepools like Arena of Legends) were seen as legitimate GSL Championships. Mvp of course with his 4, but Polt is undisputedly a GSL Champion. MMA was a 2x GSL Champion and nobody argued that fact.
I think even the Blizzard Cup in 2012 was seen as legit, when exactly did the change occur?
Shorter events were propped up for hype/marketing. Mvp fighting for the G5L was made into a big deal even though one of his wins wouldn't count by today's standards. By his standards, Rogue and Maru would have won G5L years go, and Zest/INno would be on 4.
Once the starleague format had settled and we didn't get 10 GSLs a year and countless other events, it became clear that Starleagues were the primary league, similar to in BW. It was also reflected in WCS points and prize money.
soO, after winning a Kespa Cup in 2015, said himself that it doesn't really count. Hell, it wasn't until 2018 that World Championships were even considered the highest tier of event by TL's standards.
On January 25 2024 14:01 Kitai wrote: Honestly wouldn't mind if MVP didn't make the list. His reign of dominance lasted less than 2 years and SC2 has been out for 13.5 years. He and Nestea were certainly the two greatest of WoL and they get props for figuring things out before everyone else, but they disappeared before everyone truly got gud. He never played against the vast majority of the other greatest of all timers in their primes like Maru, Serral, Rogue, Dark, Zest etc. He barely got to meet INno and soO in competition and has a losing record against both of them in that admittedly tiny sample size. IMO if he were to be on this list, it would have been at 9 or 10, and anything better is just leaning too hard on nostalgia.
So MvP winning 4 GSLs and completely dominating the game, changing the metagame is meh since it happened only over 2 years, but Rain's 6 month lasting dominance earns him spot #10? got it
To be fair: It is easy to "change the Metagame" when there isn't really a meta yet. Mvp was dominant at his time, but it was the very beginning of the game and then he rather quickly (considering the entire runtime of SC2) dropped off. Considering the amount of amazing players that would leave a mark later...can't see him make the Top 10 honestly.
On January 24 2024 15:49 Poopi wrote: I expected soO at #7, was not disappointed. So Dark got kicked probably? Zest at 6, mvp at 5, Serral at 4, then Rogue/INno/Maru?
What are you smoking bro? Serral is the obvious number 1. Then we can debate between Maru and Rogue. Imo I'll see Serral at 1, Maru at 2, Rogue at 3, Zest at 4, Dark at 5 and Inno at 6. Plus mvp is a bit overrated, he only dominated in 1 year and a half. Sure he was a monster on BW but this is SC2 not SC:B.
mvp wasn't good at bw. it's why he played sc2 instead of bw.
On January 24 2024 15:49 Poopi wrote: I expected soO at #7, was not disappointed. So Dark got kicked probably? Zest at 6, mvp at 5, Serral at 4, then Rogue/INno/Maru?
What are you smoking bro? Serral is the obvious number 1. Then we can debate between Maru and Rogue. Imo I'll see Serral at 1, Maru at 2, Rogue at 3, Zest at 4, Dark at 5 and Inno at 6. Plus mvp is a bit overrated, he only dominated in 1 year and a half. Sure he was a monster on BW but this is SC2 not SC:B.
Don’t take it too seriously. Poopi is well known for his serral hate on this forum. He is a big K fan
But to answer your reply, the majority of the fanbase has Serral as the goat. The real battle is who is 2nd place whether it is rogue or Maru
The Serral haters only has “but he never won a GSL” as their argument. But at the same time both rogue and Maru won their GSL during the weak and diminished Korean scene. Also they didn’t win as much outside of GSL since Serral was winning everything else
On January 24 2024 15:49 Poopi wrote: I expected soO at #7, was not disappointed. So Dark got kicked probably? Zest at 6, mvp at 5, Serral at 4, then Rogue/INno/Maru?
What are you smoking bro? Serral is the obvious number 1. Then we can debate between Maru and Rogue. Imo I'll see Serral at 1, Maru at 2, Rogue at 3, Zest at 4, Dark at 5 and Inno at 6. Plus mvp is a bit overrated, he only dominated in 1 year and a half. Sure he was a monster on BW but this is SC2 not SC:B.
I would be very surprised if Serral was number 1 actually. He has basically a worse trophy case than Rogue, and has the same weak points of dominating after the kespa era, in a super favorable Zerg era. If this was usual a « regular » goat list not taking context into account, Rogue would probably be number 1 and Maru number 2, but given Maru’s dominance in proleague, GSL, last Terran hope narrative etc, he is most probably number 1 here.
Heck, soO being #7 is a good indicator on how Maru will fare since on top of his 7 GSLs, he has several 2nd place too.
On January 24 2024 15:49 Poopi wrote: I expected soO at #7, was not disappointed. So Dark got kicked probably? Zest at 6, mvp at 5, Serral at 4, then Rogue/INno/Maru?
What are you smoking bro? Serral is the obvious number 1. Then we can debate between Maru and Rogue. Imo I'll see Serral at 1, Maru at 2, Rogue at 3, Zest at 4, Dark at 5 and Inno at 6. Plus mvp is a bit overrated, he only dominated in 1 year and a half. Sure he was a monster on BW but this is SC2 not SC:B.
Don’t take it too seriously. Poopi is well known for his serral hate on this forum. He is a big K fan
But to answer your reply, the majority of the fanbase has Serral as the goat. The real battle is who is 2nd place whether it is rogue or Maru
The Serral haters only has “but he never won a GSL” as their argument. But at the same time both rogue and Maru won their GSL during the weak and diminished Korean scene. Also they didn’t win as much outside of GSL since Serral was winning everything else
And I am not taking you that seriously neither, Serral won 2 GSL vs World during that same "weak and diminished Korean scene" and get hailed for being the GOAT, and he also won several EU tournaments when the scene was even WORSE than that KR scene. Its coming down to Serral won 1 Blizzon + 1 IEM + 7 ESL tittle over Rogue who won 2 IEM + Blizzcon + 4 GSL and Maru who won WESG + 7 GSL + 2 ESL title. But in your own word that Serral "winning everything else".
On January 24 2024 15:49 Poopi wrote: I expected soO at #7, was not disappointed. So Dark got kicked probably? Zest at 6, mvp at 5, Serral at 4, then Rogue/INno/Maru?
What are you smoking bro? Serral is the obvious number 1. Then we can debate between Maru and Rogue. Imo I'll see Serral at 1, Maru at 2, Rogue at 3, Zest at 4, Dark at 5 and Inno at 6. Plus mvp is a bit overrated, he only dominated in 1 year and a half. Sure he was a monster on BW but this is SC2 not SC:B.
The Serral haters only has “but he never won a GSL” as their argument. But at the same time both rogue and Maru won their GSL during the weak and diminished Korean scene. Also they didn’t win as much outside of GSL since Serral was winning everything else
Yeah except for that fact Maru won two starleagues during kespa/the most competitive era. Newer fans may be unaware what OSL and SSL were but they were identical to GSL at the time (his OSL literally ran instead of GSL season 2 that year because OGN had the broadcast rights). He was the best performing terran in korean leagues throughout HotS (although INno picked up weekend tournaments to make up for it). He also set all-time records in proleague and had probably the best performance of anyone who's race was basically unplayable at the time.
You can call Serral the GOAT if you want, but it's just incorrect and delusional to claim there's nothing other players have done other than "winning weak GSLs" (as if GSL being weaker in recent years wouldn't also make world championships and every other event Serral won also weaker).
On January 25 2024 14:01 Kitai wrote: Honestly wouldn't mind if MVP didn't make the list. His reign of dominance lasted less than 2 years and SC2 has been out for 13.5 years. He and Nestea were certainly the two greatest of WoL and they get props for figuring things out before everyone else, but they disappeared before everyone truly got gud. He never played against the vast majority of the other greatest of all timers in their primes like Maru, Serral, Rogue, Dark, Zest etc. He barely got to meet INno and soO in competition and has a losing record against both of them in that admittedly tiny sample size. IMO if he were to be on this list, it would have been at 9 or 10, and anything better is just leaning too hard on nostalgia.
So MvP winning 4 GSLs and completely dominating the game, changing the metagame is meh since it happened only over 2 years, but Rain's 6 month lasting dominance earns him spot #10? got it
Not going to address the Rain part but you can't forget that Mvp played in an era where there were 10 (11?) GSLs a year. I mean if we assume Maru would have won a proportionate amount of GSLs but with 10 GSLs a year, then he would have like 25 GSL wins. There's tournament inflation, basically.
Also the idea that Mvp was "completely dominant" is an absolute myth. He was, broadly speaking, the best player between 2011 and very early 2012, but I would never say he felt dominant in the way that Innovation, Rogue, Maru, and Serral later did. Those latter forms of dominance just didn't exist back in early SC2, admittedly likely because everything was still so new. He regularly lost tournaments even in early stages. I'm pretty sure between all his GSL wins he also dropped to Code A at least a couple times and maybe more, his TvP always tended to be weaker, etc.
Also its probably overstating it to say that he "changed the metagame." Can't really think of any accomplishments he did other than generically just pioneering macro Terran player, but I wouldn't say that was really unique to him. To give an example: MC by far pioneered/changed the meta of Protoss way more than Mvp.
So basically yes he was very successful, and pretty dominant to the extent anyone was in WoL, but you have to keep all the above in mind. He's still probably #5 GOAT for me after Maru/Serral/Rogue/Inno + Show Spoiler +
and I despite Rogue so even happy putting Rogue out of Top 10
, but I don't think it would be crazy to put him anywhere between 5-10.
As an aside, it would be a kind of interesting discussion to see not how high people could place, but how low? I.e. what's the lowest that someone could reasonably (even if not correctly) actually put Serral, or Mvp, or Innovation?
On January 26 2024 00:53 Pandain wrote: As an aside, it would be a kind of interesting discussion to see not how high people could place, but how low? I.e. what's the lowest that someone could reasonably (even if not correctly) actually put Serral, or Mvp, or Innovation?
I'll cover stuff like this in blog posts once the entire top 10 is completed.
On January 24 2024 15:49 Poopi wrote: I expected soO at #7, was not disappointed. So Dark got kicked probably? Zest at 6, mvp at 5, Serral at 4, then Rogue/INno/Maru?
What are you smoking bro? Serral is the obvious number 1. Then we can debate between Maru and Rogue. Imo I'll see Serral at 1, Maru at 2, Rogue at 3, Zest at 4, Dark at 5 and Inno at 6. Plus mvp is a bit overrated, he only dominated in 1 year and a half. Sure he was a monster on BW but this is SC2 not SC:B.
mvp wasn't good at bw. it's why he played sc2 instead of bw.
Mvp was definitely coming up in bw right around the time he switched. regular starter in proleague, got top8 in a msl etc. Probably could have left a mark.
saying he wasn't good at bw and that's why he switched to sc2 is way off the mark. at the time he swapped he was a young up and comer comparable to innovation, soulkey, rain, etc. (in bw at the time). similar age too.
On January 26 2024 00:53 Pandain wrote: As an aside, it would be a kind of interesting discussion to see not how high people could place, but how low? I.e. what's the lowest that someone could reasonably (even if not correctly) actually put Serral, or Mvp, or Innovation?
"The hater's perspective". Thing is, every player has at least something to bring them down. And people could claim anyone is discounted from being top 5 if they value those things.
Maru fumbled in every World Championship (fun fact, he has more ro4 or higher results in world championships than Serral, Rogue, or sOs, still never won).
Serral never played in a starleague or proleague, some real korean elitists would probably rank him lower similar to how they did Taeja previously. He also won during the zerg years.
Rogue never quite beat the patchzerg allegations (he even agreed with them at times), even when he continued to win people went for "well, zerg is still imba" rather than "Rogue is the best".
Mvp had all his results in a year of extreme tournament oversaturation, and where every starcraft player on his level was still playing BW. Even without the health issues, it's unlikely he would have been number 1 post-kespa switch where he wasn't just facing the C-tier BW guys.
INnoVation never had notable results in World Championships, had his dominant periods when terran was imba, and despite his reputation, was very inconsistent compared with the others (he could win Code S and then fail to qualify the next season, that happened the one time they didn't auto-seed the champ).
On January 24 2024 15:49 Poopi wrote: I expected soO at #7, was not disappointed. So Dark got kicked probably? Zest at 6, mvp at 5, Serral at 4, then Rogue/INno/Maru?
What are you smoking bro? Serral is the obvious number 1. Then we can debate between Maru and Rogue. Imo I'll see Serral at 1, Maru at 2, Rogue at 3, Zest at 4, Dark at 5 and Inno at 6. Plus mvp is a bit overrated, he only dominated in 1 year and a half. Sure he was a monster on BW but this is SC2 not SC:B.
I would be very surprised if Serral was number 1 actually. He has basically a worse trophy case than Rogue, and has the same weak points of dominating after the kespa era, in a super favorable Zerg era. If this was usual a « regular » goat list not taking context into account, Rogue would probably be number 1 and Maru number 2, but given Maru’s dominance in proleague, GSL, last Terran hope narrative etc, he is most probably number 1 here.
Heck, soO being #7 is a good indicator on how Maru will fare since on top of his 7 GSLs, he has several 2nd place too.
Simply compare all the big events Rogue and Serral have attended together... Look at the rate of Ro4 or above. You will see Serral leagues ahead
What really amazes me about Serral is that i dont think ive never seen a bad game of him, or him not delivering in a tourney. Almost all the times he didnt win, he lost to the eventual champion who happened to be on fire.
Maru and Rogue are no like that. Time and time again they dropped in group stages, or a Ro12 or Ro8 to a top player, but no necessarily someone in a hot streak.
They never carried the inexorable aura that Serral carries since 2018.
On January 26 2024 02:20 Locutus_ wrote: What really amazes me about Serral is that i dont think ive never seen a bad game of him, or him not delivering in a tourney. Almost all the times he didnt win, he lost to the eventual champion who happened to be on fire.
Maru and Rogue are no like that. Time and time again they dropped in group stages, or a Ro12 or Ro8 to a top player, but no necessarily someone in a hot streak.
They never carried the inexorable aura that Serral carries since 2018.
And this becomes so clear when you look Aligulac's historic rating from 2018 on...
On January 26 2024 02:20 Locutus_ wrote: What really amazes me about Serral is that i dont think ive never seen a bad game of him, or him not delivering in a tourney. Almost all the times he didnt win, he lost to the eventual champion who happened to be on fire.
Maru and Rogue are no like that. Time and time again they dropped in group stages, or a Ro12 or Ro8 to a top player, but no necessarily someone in a hot streak.
They never carried the inexorable aura that Serral carries since 2018.
Serral lost to Ragnarok in last year IEM, got smoked by Solar in Gamers8. Before that we have seen him got eliminated in group stage by DRG/Solar in Last Chance tournament. He also got beaten by HM and Lambo in the EU regional a couple years ago as well. Like Serral has several moments of hiccups as well, but got swept asides like thats never happened. Sure Maru, and especially Rogue, also got their fair share of getting eliminated early as well, but most of us acknowledge that, and someone even made a list of Maru blunder throughout the years including the damn loss to Oliveira in IEM last year. Again, Serral is probably the most consistent player ever play the game, but hes far from having a perfect record, or not having bad games EVER. People just choose to sweep that asides and just focus on the plus side, but turn around and looking the other way regarding other players.
On January 26 2024 02:20 Locutus_ wrote: What really amazes me about Serral is that i dont think ive never seen a bad game of him, or him not delivering in a tourney. Almost all the times he didnt win, he lost to the eventual champion who happened to be on fire.
Maru and Rogue are no like that. Time and time again they dropped in group stages, or a Ro12 or Ro8 to a top player, but no necessarily someone in a hot streak.
They never carried the inexorable aura that Serral carries since 2018.
Serral lost to Ragnarok in last year IEM, got smoked by Solar in Gamers8. Before that we have seen him got eliminated in group stage by DRG/Solar in Last Chance tournament. He also got beaten by HM and Lambo in the EU regional a couple years ago as well. Like Serral has several moments of hiccups as well, but got swept asides like thats never happened. Sure Maru, and especially Rogue, also got their fair share of getting eliminated early as well, but most of us acknowledge that, and someone even made a list of Maru blunder throughout the years including the damn loss to Oliveira in IEM last year. Again, Serral is probably the most consistent player ever play the game, but hes far from having a perfect record, or not having bad games EVER. People just choose to sweep that asides and just focus on the plus side, but turn around and looking the other way regarding other players.
Related but not directly addressing your point, obviously 2018 was Serral's best year but I've always thought 2019 was almost as remarkable for the point made by Locutus. In 2019, until the world championship at the end of the year, Serral actually won every tournament or lost to the champion. Kind of arbitrary cherry picking but I still think quite remarkable.
On January 26 2024 02:20 Locutus_ wrote: What really amazes me about Serral is that i dont think ive never seen a bad game of him, or him not delivering in a tourney. Almost all the times he didnt win, he lost to the eventual champion who happened to be on fire.
Maru and Rogue are no like that. Time and time again they dropped in group stages, or a Ro12 or Ro8 to a top player, but no necessarily someone in a hot streak.
They never carried the inexorable aura that Serral carries since 2018.
Serral lost to Ragnarok in last year IEM, got smoked by Solar in Gamers8. Before that we have seen him got eliminated in group stage by DRG/Solar in Last Chance tournament. He also got beaten by HM and Lambo in the EU regional a couple years ago as well. Like Serral has several moments of hiccups as well, but got swept asides like thats never happened. Sure Maru, and especially Rogue, also got their fair share of getting eliminated early as well, but most of us acknowledge that, and someone even made a list of Maru blunder throughout the years including the damn loss to Oliveira in IEM last year. Again, Serral is probably the most consistent player ever play the game, but hes far from having a perfect record, or not having bad games EVER. People just choose to sweep that asides and just focus on the plus side, but turn around and looking the other way regarding other players.
Related but not directly addressing your point, obviously 2018 was Serral's best year but I've always thought 2019 was almost as remarkable for the point made by Locutus. In 2019, until the world championship at the end of the year, Serral actually won every tournament or lost to the champion. Kind of arbitrary cherry picking but I still think quite remarkable.
On January 26 2024 02:20 Locutus_ wrote: What really amazes me about Serral is that i dont think ive never seen a bad game of him, or him not delivering in a tourney. Almost all the times he didnt win, he lost to the eventual champion who happened to be on fire.
Maru and Rogue are no like that. Time and time again they dropped in group stages, or a Ro12 or Ro8 to a top player, but no necessarily someone in a hot streak.
They never carried the inexorable aura that Serral carries since 2018.
Serral lost to Ragnarok in last year IEM, got smoked by Solar in Gamers8. Before that we have seen him got eliminated in group stage by DRG/Solar in Last Chance tournament. He also got beaten by HM and Lambo in the EU regional a couple years ago as well. Like Serral has several moments of hiccups as well, but got swept asides like thats never happened. Sure Maru, and especially Rogue, also got their fair share of getting eliminated early as well, but most of us acknowledge that, and someone even made a list of Maru blunder throughout the years including the damn loss to Oliveira in IEM last year. Again, Serral is probably the most consistent player ever play the game, but hes far from having a perfect record, or not having bad games EVER. People just choose to sweep that asides and just focus on the plus side, but turn around and looking the other way regarding other players.
Related but not directly addressing your point, obviously 2018 was Serral's best year but I've always thought 2019 was almost as remarkable for the point made by Locutus. In 2019, until the world championship at the end of the year, Serral actually won every tournament or lost to the champion. Kind of arbitrary cherry picking but I still think quite remarkable.
The problem with this stat is that he actually didn't enter that many tournaments.
Excluding region locked events (where there's zero chance he or Reynor didn't win so yeah), he only entered 5 international tournaments in the timespan you mention. And won 1 of them
-Katowice (lost to eventual champ) -WeSG (lost to eventual champ) -GSLvsTW (won) -Asus ROG (lost to eventual champ) -Blizzcon (lost)
For comparison, in the same time span Dark entered 9 events, won 3, and lost to a finalist in the other 6. Is that not even more impressive?
For the record, I think Serral was the best player during that timespan, and would have been the favourite in a any tournament he entered. But he just didn't participate in enough to solidify the "never loses" stat.
On January 26 2024 02:20 Locutus_ wrote: What really amazes me about Serral is that i dont think ive never seen a bad game of him, or him not delivering in a tourney. Almost all the times he didnt win, he lost to the eventual champion who happened to be on fire.
Maru and Rogue are no like that. Time and time again they dropped in group stages, or a Ro12 or Ro8 to a top player, but no necessarily someone in a hot streak.
They never carried the inexorable aura that Serral carries since 2018.
Serral lost to Ragnarok in last year IEM, got smoked by Solar in Gamers8. Before that we have seen him got eliminated in group stage by DRG/Solar in Last Chance tournament. He also got beaten by HM and Lambo in the EU regional a couple years ago as well. Like Serral has several moments of hiccups as well, but got swept asides like thats never happened. Sure Maru, and especially Rogue, also got their fair share of getting eliminated early as well, but most of us acknowledge that, and someone even made a list of Maru blunder throughout the years including the damn loss to Oliveira in IEM last year. Again, Serral is probably the most consistent player ever play the game, but hes far from having a perfect record, or not having bad games EVER. People just choose to sweep that asides and just focus on the plus side, but turn around and looking the other way regarding other players.
Related but not directly addressing your point, obviously 2018 was Serral's best year but I've always thought 2019 was almost as remarkable for the point made by Locutus. In 2019, until the world championship at the end of the year, Serral actually won every tournament or lost to the champion. Kind of arbitrary cherry picking but I still think quite remarkable.
The problem with this stat is that he actually didn't enter that many tournaments.
Excluding region locked events (where there's zero chance he or Reynor didn't win so yeah), he only entered 5 international tournaments in the timespan you mention. And won 1 of them. Katowice (lost to eventual champ) WeSG (lost to eventual champ) GSLvsTW (won) Asus ROG (lost to eventual champ) Blizzcon (lost)
For comparison, in the same time span Dark entered 9 events, won 3, and lost to a finalist in the other 6. Is that not even more impressive?
For the record, I think Serral was the best player during that timespan, and would have been the favourite in a any tournament he entered. But he just didn't participate in enough to solidify the "never loses" stat.
It’s surprising he didn’t win BlizzCon when Zerg was at its most OP, but he suffers the same fate as the likes of Maru, sometimes being the best at their race vs X, but not in mirror. Maru benefited from being the last Terran alive and when he wasn’t, he barely won vs TY in an epic finals. Afterwards, he couldn’t beat TY when Terran was doing better which allowed BaBy to have good results more easily
One has to wonder if Maru would have been as invincible in 2022-2023 TvT if TY didn’t have to go to the military
On January 26 2024 02:20 Locutus_ wrote: What really amazes me about Serral is that i dont think ive never seen a bad game of him, or him not delivering in a tourney. Almost all the times he didnt win, he lost to the eventual champion who happened to be on fire.
Maru and Rogue are no like that. Time and time again they dropped in group stages, or a Ro12 or Ro8 to a top player, but no necessarily someone in a hot streak.
They never carried the inexorable aura that Serral carries since 2018.
Serral lost to Ragnarok in last year IEM, got smoked by Solar in Gamers8. Before that we have seen him got eliminated in group stage by DRG/Solar in Last Chance tournament. He also got beaten by HM and Lambo in the EU regional a couple years ago as well. Like Serral has several moments of hiccups as well, but got swept asides like thats never happened. Sure Maru, and especially Rogue, also got their fair share of getting eliminated early as well, but most of us acknowledge that, and someone even made a list of Maru blunder throughout the years including the damn loss to Oliveira in IEM last year. Again, Serral is probably the most consistent player ever play the game, but hes far from having a perfect record, or not having bad games EVER. People just choose to sweep that asides and just focus on the plus side, but turn around and looking the other way regarding other players.
Related but not directly addressing your point, obviously 2018 was Serral's best year but I've always thought 2019 was almost as remarkable for the point made by Locutus. In 2019, until the world championship at the end of the year, Serral actually won every tournament or lost to the champion. Kind of arbitrary cherry picking but I still think quite remarkable.
The problem with this stat is that he actually didn't enter that many tournaments.
Excluding region locked events (where there's zero chance he or Reynor didn't win so yeah), he only entered 5 international tournaments in the timespan you mention. And won 1 of them. Katowice (lost to eventual champ) WeSG (lost to eventual champ) GSLvsTW (won) Asus ROG (lost to eventual champ) Blizzcon (lost)
For comparison, in the same time span Dark entered 9 events, won 3, and lost to a finalist in the other 6. Is that not even more impressive?
For the record, I think Serral was the best player during that timespan, and would have been the favourite in a any tournament he entered. But he just didn't participate in enough to solidify the "never loses" stat.
It’s surprising he didn’t win BlizzCon when Zerg was at its most OP, but he suffers the same fate as the likes of Maru, sometimes being the best at their race vs X, but not in mirror. Maru benefited from being the last Terran alive and when he wasn’t, he barely won vs TY in an epic finals. Afterwards, he couldn’t beat TY when Terran was doing better which allowed BaBy to have good results more easily
One has to wonder if Maru would have been as invincible in 2022-2023 TvT if TY didn’t have to go to the military
Even soO finally won in 2019 largely down to his ZvZ. The best mirror players tend to win the most when their race is good. Zest’s all-time great 2014 came because he was the best PvP player, and protoss was the best race (he even won a trophy playing exclusively PvP, talk about bracket luck). And TY's insane early 2017 run was like 90% TvT.
Serral's losses in 2019 were mostly against the few non-zergs that ended up winning (Stats & Inno). Blizzcon was always gonna be the top 4 zergs, and even if Serral's the best it’s like a 40/20/20/20 split between them.
As for Maru, he would have won less without TY going to the military, that's for sure. But they were pretty much 50/50 in GSL, it's a shame the second finals between them is remembered as "Maru couldn't win" when he was so injured he could only play a few games a day and was in the hospital 3x a week for treatment. I think him making the finals that season is actually one of his biggest achievements.
Funny how all the people trying to discredit rogue by saying he won when Zerg was favourable. Yet nothing is said about mvp and inno when their dominance was during the Imba terran times. Similar can be said about Maru during the proxy meta and current terran meta the last couple years
On January 26 2024 02:20 Locutus_ wrote: What really amazes me about Serral is that i dont think ive never seen a bad game of him, or him not delivering in a tourney. Almost all the times he didnt win, he lost to the eventual champion who happened to be on fire.
Maru and Rogue are no like that. Time and time again they dropped in group stages, or a Ro12 or Ro8 to a top player, but no necessarily someone in a hot streak.
They never carried the inexorable aura that Serral carries since 2018.
Serral lost to Ragnarok in last year IEM, got smoked by Solar in Gamers8. Before that we have seen him got eliminated in group stage by DRG/Solar in Last Chance tournament. He also got beaten by HM and Lambo in the EU regional a couple years ago as well. Like Serral has several moments of hiccups as well, but got swept asides like thats never happened. Sure Maru, and especially Rogue, also got their fair share of getting eliminated early as well, but most of us acknowledge that, and someone even made a list of Maru blunder throughout the years including the damn loss to Oliveira in IEM last year. Again, Serral is probably the most consistent player ever play the game, but hes far from having a perfect record, or not having bad games EVER. People just choose to sweep that asides and just focus on the plus side, but turn around and looking the other way regarding other players.
Related but not directly addressing your point, obviously 2018 was Serral's best year but I've always thought 2019 was almost as remarkable for the point made by Locutus. In 2019, until the world championship at the end of the year, Serral actually won every tournament or lost to the champion. Kind of arbitrary cherry picking but I still think quite remarkable.
The problem with this stat is that he actually didn't enter that many tournaments.
Excluding region locked events (where there's zero chance he or Reynor didn't win so yeah), he only entered 5 international tournaments in the timespan you mention. And won 1 of them
-Katowice (lost to eventual champ) -WeSG (lost to eventual champ) -GSLvsTW (won) -Asus ROG (lost to eventual champ) -Blizzcon (lost)
For comparison, in the same time span Dark entered 9 events, won 3, and lost to a finalist in the other 6. Is that not even more impressive?
For the record, I think Serral was the best player during that timespan, and would have been the favourite in a any tournament he entered. But he just didn't participate in enough to solidify the "never loses" stat.
You leave out two homestory cups he won which had enough top korean players/reynor to still be very meaningful.
And for this
Dark entered 9 events, won 3, and lost to a finalist in the other 6. Isn't that even more impressive
.
No, bluntly. The Serral stat is already kind of arbitrary because we are allowing him to lose to a champion - but at least that makes sense: Serral won every event or lost to the guy who was absolutely playing out of his mind on that day/weekend. But if you expand it to "lost to champion or finalist" I think its like just a very arbitrary stat now and not as meaningful.
On January 26 2024 02:20 Locutus_ wrote: What really amazes me about Serral is that i dont think ive never seen a bad game of him, or him not delivering in a tourney. Almost all the times he didnt win, he lost to the eventual champion who happened to be on fire.
Maru and Rogue are no like that. Time and time again they dropped in group stages, or a Ro12 or Ro8 to a top player, but no necessarily someone in a hot streak.
They never carried the inexorable aura that Serral carries since 2018.
Serral lost to Ragnarok in last year IEM, got smoked by Solar in Gamers8. Before that we have seen him got eliminated in group stage by DRG/Solar in Last Chance tournament. He also got beaten by HM and Lambo in the EU regional a couple years ago as well. Like Serral has several moments of hiccups as well, but got swept asides like thats never happened. Sure Maru, and especially Rogue, also got their fair share of getting eliminated early as well, but most of us acknowledge that, and someone even made a list of Maru blunder throughout the years including the damn loss to Oliveira in IEM last year. Again, Serral is probably the most consistent player ever play the game, but hes far from having a perfect record, or not having bad games EVER. People just choose to sweep that asides and just focus on the plus side, but turn around and looking the other way regarding other players.
Related but not directly addressing your point, obviously 2018 was Serral's best year but I've always thought 2019 was almost as remarkable for the point made by Locutus. In 2019, until the world championship at the end of the year, Serral actually won every tournament or lost to the champion. Kind of arbitrary cherry picking but I still think quite remarkable.
The problem with this stat is that he actually didn't enter that many tournaments.
Excluding region locked events (where there's zero chance he or Reynor didn't win so yeah), he only entered 5 international tournaments in the timespan you mention. And won 1 of them
-Katowice (lost to eventual champ) -WeSG (lost to eventual champ) -GSLvsTW (won) -Asus ROG (lost to eventual champ) -Blizzcon (lost)
For comparison, in the same time span Dark entered 9 events, won 3, and lost to a finalist in the other 6. Is that not even more impressive?
For the record, I think Serral was the best player during that timespan, and would have been the favourite in a any tournament he entered. But he just didn't participate in enough to solidify the "never loses" stat.
You leave out two homestory cups he won which had enough top korean players/reynor to still be very meaningful
Forgive me, the first HSC wasn't considered Premier on liquipedia so I missed it when checking the results, if you disagree with their placement fair enough . And the second came after Blizzcon, which wasn't within the timeframe you mentioned (2019 until the World Finals).
Dark entered 9 events, won 3, and lost to a finalist in the other 6. Isn't that even more impressive
.
No, bluntly. The Serral stat is already kind of arbitrary because we are allowing him to lose to a champion - but at least that makes sense: Serral won every event or lost to the guy who was absolutely playing out of his mind on that day/weekend. But if you expand it to "lost to champion or finalist" I think its like just a very arbitrary stat now and not as meaningful.
Do you seriously think that winning 1/5 tournaments, while losing to the champ in 3, is more impressive than winning 3/9?
I agree that expanding to "lost to a finalist" is too broad, but Serral only "lost to the champ" in 3 tournaments, hardly an all-time great stat like people are claiming.
On January 26 2024 04:58 TossHeroes wrote: Funny how all the people trying to discredit rogue by saying he won when Zerg was favourable. Yet nothing is said about mvp and inno when their dominance was during the Imba terran times. Similar can be said about Maru during the proxy meta and current terran meta the last couple years
The proxy meta where no terran except Maru won a tournament? The last couple years where Zerg is dominating everything? Are you like living in an alternate reality?
You can call Serral the GOAT if you want, but it's just incorrect and delusional to claim there's nothing other players have done other than "winning weak GSLs" (as if GSL being weaker in recent years wouldn't also make world championships and every other event Serral won also weaker).
Yeah, I love this argument that these people love to make. "Oh, those GSLs were weaker GSLs", as if the ro4 in basically every major tournament didn't have 3 or more Koreans that compete in the GSL.
You can call Serral the GOAT if you want, but it's just incorrect and delusional to claim there's nothing other players have done other than "winning weak GSLs" (as if GSL being weaker in recent years wouldn't also make world championships and every other event Serral won also weaker).
Yeah, I love this argument that these people love to make. "Oh, those GSLs were weaker GSLs", as if the ro4 in basically every major tournament didn't have 3 or more Koreans that compete in the GSL.
Plus conveniently ignoring that Reynor tried 2 times GSL and not reaching far.
I watched soO's IEM win live on stream. When he and Smix started crying on stage, I got more than a little teary-eyed myself. It was such a beautiful moment to see this man finally lift a big trophy. 🏆
You can call Serral the GOAT if you want, but it's just incorrect and delusional to claim there's nothing other players have done other than "winning weak GSLs" (as if GSL being weaker in recent years wouldn't also make world championships and every other event Serral won also weaker).
Yeah, I love this argument that these people love to make. "Oh, those GSLs were weaker GSLs", as if the ro4 in basically every major tournament didn't have 3 or more Koreans that compete in the GSL.
Plus conveniently ignoring that Reynor tried 2 times GSL and not reaching far.
In all fairness you can easily reverse the argument - weekend tournaments test your pure skill. Starleague format rewards preparation and dissection of player you're specifically facing. It is different case, where you play not only game but also a player. Proleague was fostering this culture in Korea for years, where even lower ranked players could be brought up to snipe superior player with meticulously prepared build order that worked only once and sometimes only on specific map. Like I remember crazy games like that.
I'm fully aware, that for Artosis this kind of argument is basically blasphemy and heresy in one.
You can call Serral the GOAT if you want, but it's just incorrect and delusional to claim there's nothing other players have done other than "winning weak GSLs" (as if GSL being weaker in recent years wouldn't also make world championships and every other event Serral won also weaker).
Yeah, I love this argument that these people love to make. "Oh, those GSLs were weaker GSLs", as if the ro4 in basically every major tournament didn't have 3 or more Koreans that compete in the GSL.
Plus conveniently ignoring that Reynor tried 2 times GSL and not reaching far.
In all fairness you can easily reverse the argument - weekend tournaments test your pure skill. Starleague format rewards preparation and dissection of player you're specifically facing. It is different case, where you play not only game but also a player. Proleague was fostering this culture in Korea for years, where even lower ranked players could be brought up to snipe superior player with meticulously prepared build order that worked only once and sometimes only on specific map. Like I remember crazy games like that.
I'm fully aware, that for Artosis this kind of argument is basically blasphemy and heresy in one.
What you have brought up has nothing to do with the argument of "weaker" GSL that some want to push in.
You can call Serral the GOAT if you want, but it's just incorrect and delusional to claim there's nothing other players have done other than "winning weak GSLs" (as if GSL being weaker in recent years wouldn't also make world championships and every other event Serral won also weaker).
Yeah, I love this argument that these people love to make. "Oh, those GSLs were weaker GSLs", as if the ro4 in basically every major tournament didn't have 3 or more Koreans that compete in the GSL.
Also if GSLs are weaker because of all the retirements than all the tournaments Serral won are also weaker because every retired korean also doesn't participate anymore in international events. Serral, Reynor and Clem alone don't make up for 10-15 top koreans retiring
People that count GSL as an argument to put Maru above Serral forget to project this (which are the same people to discount european WCS since 2018): Would Maru have won all those GSL's had Serral, Reynor and Clem been there since their beggining in Starcraft. Imagine Serral in 2018 in GSL, playing there since 2013, kindish... Honestly guys. Do you really thin him, Reynor and Clem wouldnt have won at least a couple of GSL?
Since its impossible to put a finger on a number, just check all the premier tourneys they've been together and see who came out on top...
On January 26 2024 20:59 Locutus_ wrote: People that count GSL as an argument to put Maru above Serral forget to project this (which are the same people to discount european WCS since 2018): Would Maru have won all those GSL's had Serral, Reynor and Clem been there since their beggining in Starcraft. Imagine Serral in 2018 in GSL, playing there since 2013, kindish... Honestly guys. Do you really thin him, Reynor and Clem wouldnt have won at least a couple of GSL?
Since its impossible to put a finger on a number, just check all the premier tourneys they've been together and see who came out on top...
PS: I only counted tourneys where one of them made Ro4 or more.
That's like saying what if Mvp's wrists didn't give up or Life didn't get banned, so Life and Mvp should be #1 and #2. I think it makes more sense to count the results they have actually achieved and not hypothetical achievements they might or might not have achieved if the circumstances were different.
On January 26 2024 20:59 Locutus_ wrote: People that count GSL as an argument to put Maru above Serral forget to project this (which are the same people to discount european WCS since 2018): Would Maru have won all those GSL's had Serral, Reynor and Clem been there since their beggining in Starcraft. Imagine Serral in 2018 in GSL, playing there since 2013, kindish... Honestly guys. Do you really thin him, Reynor and Clem wouldnt have won at least a couple of GSL?
Since its impossible to put a finger on a number, just check all the premier tourneys they've been together and see who came out on top...
PS: I only counted tourneys where one of them made Ro4 or more.
That's like saying what if Mvp's wrists didn't give up or Life didn't get banned, so Life and Mvp should be #1 and #2. I think it makes more sense to count the results they have actually achieved and not hypothetical achievements they might or might not have achieved if the circumstances were different.
I just listed their achievements that which they accomplished when both of them participated together... Precisely so we dont have to rely on speculations. And the result is quite clear.
On January 26 2024 20:59 Locutus_ wrote: People that count GSL as an argument to put Maru above Serral forget to project this (which are the same people to discount european WCS since 2018): Would Maru have won all those GSL's had Serral, Reynor and Clem been there since their beggining in Starcraft. Imagine Serral in 2018 in GSL, playing there since 2013, kindish... Honestly guys. Do you really thin him, Reynor and Clem wouldnt have won at least a couple of GSL?
Since its impossible to put a finger on a number, just check all the premier tourneys they've been together and see who came out on top...
PS: I only counted tourneys where one of them made Ro4 or more.
That's like saying what if Mvp's wrists didn't give up or Life didn't get banned, so Life and Mvp should be #1 and #2. I think it makes more sense to count the results they have actually achieved and not hypothetical achievements they might or might not have achieved if the circumstances were different.
If anything can be gleaned from this article series, it's that it is silly to punish a player for events they didn't play in. However, comparing maru and serral's results in tournaments in which they both participated is a really good idea and one of the primary ways you can compare them.
On January 26 2024 20:59 Locutus_ wrote: People that count GSL as an argument to put Maru above Serral forget to project this (which are the same people to discount european WCS since 2018): Would Maru have won all those GSL's had Serral, Reynor and Clem been there since their beggining in Starcraft. Imagine Serral in 2018 in GSL, playing there since 2013, kindish... Honestly guys. Do you really thin him, Reynor and Clem wouldnt have won at least a couple of GSL?
Since its impossible to put a finger on a number, just check all the premier tourneys they've been together and see who came out on top...
On January 26 2024 20:59 Locutus_ wrote: People that count GSL as an argument to put Maru above Serral forget to project this (which are the same people to discount european WCS since 2018): Would Maru have won all those GSL's had Serral, Reynor and Clem been there since their beggining in Starcraft. Imagine Serral in 2018 in GSL, playing there since 2013, kindish... Honestly guys. Do you really thin him, Reynor and Clem wouldnt have won at least a couple of GSL?
Since its impossible to put a finger on a number, just check all the premier tourneys they've been together and see who came out on top...
PS: I only counted tourneys where one of them made Ro4 or more.
That's like saying what if Mvp's wrists didn't give up or Life didn't get banned, so Life and Mvp should be #1 and #2. I think it makes more sense to count the results they have actually achieved and not hypothetical achievements they might or might not have achieved if the circumstances were different.
If anything can be gleaned from this article series, it's that it is silly to punish a player for events they didn't play in. However, comparing maru and serral's results in tournaments in which they both participated is a really good idea and one of the primary ways you can compare them.
But it's not silly to punish players for events they played in that other players did not play in?? Why should Maru be punished because Serral decides not to play in the GSL?
On January 26 2024 20:59 Locutus_ wrote: People that count GSL as an argument to put Maru above Serral forget to project this (which are the same people to discount european WCS since 2018): Would Maru have won all those GSL's had Serral, Reynor and Clem been there since their beggining in Starcraft. Imagine Serral in 2018 in GSL, playing there since 2013, kindish... Honestly guys. Do you really thin him, Reynor and Clem wouldnt have won at least a couple of GSL?
Since its impossible to put a finger on a number, just check all the premier tourneys they've been together and see who came out on top...
PS: I only counted tourneys where one of them made Ro4 or more.
That's like saying what if Mvp's wrists didn't give up or Life didn't get banned, so Life and Mvp should be #1 and #2. I think it makes more sense to count the results they have actually achieved and not hypothetical achievements they might or might not have achieved if the circumstances were different.
I just listed their achievements that which they accomplished when both of them participated together... Precisely so we dont have to rely on speculations. And the result is quite clear.
Yeah when looking only at a specific subset of tournaments that fit your agenda and ignoring everything elsr than Serral is the Goat, agreed.
Also funny that you further restricted the events to be only from 2018 onwards because you didn't like the results in the previous events
On January 26 2024 20:59 Locutus_ wrote: People that count GSL as an argument to put Maru above Serral forget to project this (which are the same people to discount european WCS since 2018): Would Maru have won all those GSL's had Serral, Reynor and Clem been there since their beggining in Starcraft. Imagine Serral in 2018 in GSL, playing there since 2013, kindish... Honestly guys. Do you really thin him, Reynor and Clem wouldnt have won at least a couple of GSL?
Since its impossible to put a finger on a number, just check all the premier tourneys they've been together and see who came out on top...
PS: I only counted tourneys where one of them made Ro4 or more.
That's like saying what if Mvp's wrists didn't give up or Life didn't get banned, so Life and Mvp should be #1 and #2. I think it makes more sense to count the results they have actually achieved and not hypothetical achievements they might or might not have achieved if the circumstances were different.
I just listed their achievements that which they accomplished when both of them participated together... Precisely so we dont have to rely on speculations. And the result is quite clear.
Yeah when looking only at a specific subset of tournaments that fit your agenda and ignoring everything elsr than Serral is the Goat, agreed.
Also funny that you further restricted the events to be only from 2018 onwards because you didn't like the results in the previous events
If you take both of their careers, Serral almost doubles the amount of Premier event wins compared to Maru. (22 vs. 13). You could add Dark or herO to Maru and it would not be enough to overtake Serrals results. That is the raw metric in tournaments. From there on out, it will just be the infinite discussion what you rank higher: World Championships or GSL/Proleague, a longer career (in an enviroment that allows such a career) vs. a shorter, but much more dominant career.
And that is an aspect that you, me and probably most other people won't ever budge on. You rank his GSL results higher, maybe even count WESG as a "legit" World Championship. I don't count it as such and GSL is just the strongest regional event, nothing more. And someone else might say HomestoryCup is the pinnacle of SC2 achievements, which would be weird, but if that is someones metric you will probably never change that persons mind.
But please don't pretend there are any raw numbers that put Maru somehow clearly in front. There ain't. In fact, if you go by Premier events alone, Marus rival isn't Serral but Reynor (10 wins).
On January 26 2024 20:59 Locutus_ wrote: People that count GSL as an argument to put Maru above Serral forget to project this (which are the same people to discount european WCS since 2018): Would Maru have won all those GSL's had Serral, Reynor and Clem been there since their beggining in Starcraft. Imagine Serral in 2018 in GSL, playing there since 2013, kindish... Honestly guys. Do you really thin him, Reynor and Clem wouldnt have won at least a couple of GSL?
Since its impossible to put a finger on a number, just check all the premier tourneys they've been together and see who came out on top...
PS: I only counted tourneys where one of them made Ro4 or more.
That's like saying what if Mvp's wrists didn't give up or Life didn't get banned, so Life and Mvp should be #1 and #2. I think it makes more sense to count the results they have actually achieved and not hypothetical achievements they might or might not have achieved if the circumstances were different.
I just listed their achievements that which they accomplished when both of them participated together... Precisely so we dont have to rely on speculations. And the result is quite clear.
Yeah when looking only at a specific subset of tournaments that fit your agenda and ignoring everything elsr than Serral is the Goat, agreed.
Also funny that you further restricted the events to be only from 2018 onwards because you didn't like the results in the previous events
Its just when Serral matured. But also Maru. He has one GSL and on Starleague before that, but you cant compare, since Serral didnt play in any. If you took the premier tourneys in which both Maru and Serral participated, and at least one of them got 4th or more before 2018, it would make almost no difference, cus theres almost none.
An by the way, from 2018 is A LOT of time in SCII history. Its half of it. And its almost all the time of LoTV... So no reason to whine about the time frame.
On January 26 2024 20:59 Locutus_ wrote: People that count GSL as an argument to put Maru above Serral forget to project this (which are the same people to discount european WCS since 2018): Would Maru have won all those GSL's had Serral, Reynor and Clem been there since their beggining in Starcraft. Imagine Serral in 2018 in GSL, playing there since 2013, kindish... Honestly guys. Do you really thin him, Reynor and Clem wouldnt have won at least a couple of GSL?
Since its impossible to put a finger on a number, just check all the premier tourneys they've been together and see who came out on top...
PS: I only counted tourneys where one of them made Ro4 or more.
That's like saying what if Mvp's wrists didn't give up or Life didn't get banned, so Life and Mvp should be #1 and #2. I think it makes more sense to count the results they have actually achieved and not hypothetical achievements they might or might not have achieved if the circumstances were different.
I just listed their achievements that which they accomplished when both of them participated together... Precisely so we dont have to rely on speculations. And the result is quite clear.
Yeah when looking only at a specific subset of tournaments that fit your agenda and ignoring everything elsr than Serral is the Goat, agreed.
Also funny that you further restricted the events to be only from 2018 onwards because you didn't like the results in the previous events
If you take both of their careers, Serral almost doubles the amount of Premier event wins compared to Maru. (22 vs. 13). You could add Dark or herO to Maru and it would not be enough to overtake Serrals results. That is the raw metric in tournaments. From there on out, it will just be the infinite discussion what you rank higher: World Championships or GSL/Proleague, a longer career (in an enviroment that allows such a career) vs. a shorter, but much more dominant career.
And that is an aspect that you, me and probably most other people won't ever budge on. You rank his GSL results higher, maybe even count WESG as a "legit" World Championship. I don't count it as such and GSL is just the strongest regional event, nothing more. And someone else might say HomestoryCup is the pinnacle of SC2 achievements, which would be weird, but if that is someones metric you will probably never change that persons mind.
But please don't pretend there are any raw numbers that put Maru somehow clearly in front. There ain't. In fact, if you go by Premier events alone, Marus rival isn't Serral but Reynor (10 wins).
By the way, that specific subset of tourneys also excludes many premiers Serral won (some of which top tiers Koreans participated).
Winning over twice as many starleagues as anyone else, having a GOAT proleague record, winning in multiple expansions, and winning when your race sucked, are all things Maru has over Serral.
Winning more weekenders, world championships and being better in h2h tournaments are all things Serral has over Maru.
Of the three competitive formats (starleague, weekender, teamleague) that all test players differently and all make up huge portions of the games most competitive events, ignoring 2/3 of them when doing a GOAT list is a terrible way of doing history.
Remember, this isn't a discussion on who's better. It's about comparing who had the greatest career achievements. I'm not saying Maru is the GOAT, I'm saying reducing 14 years of history to only events Serral played in is absurd.
On January 26 2024 20:59 Locutus_ wrote: People that count GSL as an argument to put Maru above Serral forget to project this (which are the same people to discount european WCS since 2018): Would Maru have won all those GSL's had Serral, Reynor and Clem been there since their beggining in Starcraft. Imagine Serral in 2018 in GSL, playing there since 2013, kindish... Honestly guys. Do you really thin him, Reynor and Clem wouldnt have won at least a couple of GSL?
Since its impossible to put a finger on a number, just check all the premier tourneys they've been together and see who came out on top...
PS: I only counted tourneys where one of them made Ro4 or more.
That's like saying what if Mvp's wrists didn't give up or Life didn't get banned, so Life and Mvp should be #1 and #2. I think it makes more sense to count the results they have actually achieved and not hypothetical achievements they might or might not have achieved if the circumstances were different.
I just listed their achievements that which they accomplished when both of them participated together... Precisely so we dont have to rely on speculations. And the result is quite clear.
Yeah when looking only at a specific subset of tournaments that fit your agenda and ignoring everything elsr than Serral is the Goat, agreed.
Also funny that you further restricted the events to be only from 2018 onwards because you didn't like the results in the previous events
Its just when Serral matured. But also Maru. He has one GSL and on Starleague before that, but you cant compare, since Serral didnt play in any. If you took the premier tourneys in which both Maru and Serral participated, and at least one of them got 4th or more before 2018, it would make almost no difference, cus theres almost none.
An by the way, from 2018 is A LOT of time in SCII history. Its half of it. And its almost all the time of LoTV... So no reason to whine about the time frame.
There are system in tennis tournament, like GrandSlams and ATP Master 1000/500/250. And the GOAT debate has been about whoever won the most GrandSlam and so forth. SC2 has much less of "GrandSlam" tournament, aka IEM/Blizzcon/WESG/Gamers8, but we should agree on where to rank the rest of the tournaments. In most people eyes, including myself, GSL/OSL/SSL is ranked higher than the Regional of WCS, at least until late 2019/early 2020 where players level really catched up. In your eyes, they all rank the same and thats part of the debate, like winning 2-3 TSL is cool and all, but might not be worth the one SSL that Maru won. And Maru made MULTIPLE Ro4 in GSL, also Ro4 in Blizzcon where sOs won. So if you count that title for sOs, does Maru deserve credit for making those Ro4?
Comparing the common tournament result is fine, although I have to say just because Serral didnt play in DH Valencia doesnt mean Maru didnt deserve his credit for getting to the Final, I would count that toward his record as well.
On January 26 2024 20:59 Locutus_ wrote: People that count GSL as an argument to put Maru above Serral forget to project this (which are the same people to discount european WCS since 2018): Would Maru have won all those GSL's had Serral, Reynor and Clem been there since their beggining in Starcraft. Imagine Serral in 2018 in GSL, playing there since 2013, kindish... Honestly guys. Do you really thin him, Reynor and Clem wouldnt have won at least a couple of GSL?
Since its impossible to put a finger on a number, just check all the premier tourneys they've been together and see who came out on top...
PS: I only counted tourneys where one of them made Ro4 or more.
That's like saying what if Mvp's wrists didn't give up or Life didn't get banned, so Life and Mvp should be #1 and #2. I think it makes more sense to count the results they have actually achieved and not hypothetical achievements they might or might not have achieved if the circumstances were different.
If anything can be gleaned from this article series, it's that it is silly to punish a player for events they didn't play in. However, comparing maru and serral's results in tournaments in which they both participated is a really good idea and one of the primary ways you can compare them.
But it's not silly to punish players for events they played in that other players did not play in?? Why should Maru be punished because Serral decides not to play in the GSL?
I think its both possible to view the Serral-Maru in same tournament statistics as important and still find meaningful the tournament victories they won separately.
Its also simultaneously possible to view Maru's GSL achievements as unbelievably massive but also acknowledge that the arguable best player in the world was not competing in them.
I think its important to have nuanced perspectives on these things.
And the biggest punishment for Serral not playing in GSL is that ... he has no GSL victories!! So his resume needs to stand on separately from that.
On January 26 2024 20:59 Locutus_ wrote: People that count GSL as an argument to put Maru above Serral forget to project this (which are the same people to discount european WCS since 2018): Would Maru have won all those GSL's had Serral, Reynor and Clem been there since their beggining in Starcraft. Imagine Serral in 2018 in GSL, playing there since 2013, kindish... Honestly guys. Do you really thin him, Reynor and Clem wouldnt have won at least a couple of GSL?
Since its impossible to put a finger on a number, just check all the premier tourneys they've been together and see who came out on top...
PS: I only counted tourneys where one of them made Ro4 or more.
That's like saying what if Mvp's wrists didn't give up or Life didn't get banned, so Life and Mvp should be #1 and #2. I think it makes more sense to count the results they have actually achieved and not hypothetical achievements they might or might not have achieved if the circumstances were different.
I just listed their achievements that which they accomplished when both of them participated together... Precisely so we dont have to rely on speculations. And the result is quite clear.
Yeah when looking only at a specific subset of tournaments that fit your agenda and ignoring everything elsr than Serral is the Goat, agreed.
Also funny that you further restricted the events to be only from 2018 onwards because you didn't like the results in the previous events
Its just when Serral matured. But also Maru. He has one GSL and on Starleague before that, but you cant compare, since Serral didnt play in any. If you took the premier tourneys in which both Maru and Serral participated, and at least one of them got 4th or more before 2018, it would make almost no difference, cus theres almost none.
An by the way, from 2018 is A LOT of time in SCII history. Its half of it. And its almost all the time of LoTV... So no reason to whine about the time frame.
There are system in tennis tournament, like GrandSlams and ATP Master 1000/500/250. And the GOAT debate has been about whoever won the most GrandSlam and so forth. SC2 has much less of "GrandSlam" tournament, aka IEM/Blizzcon/WESG/Gamers8, but we should agree on where to rank the rest of the tournaments. In most people eyes, including myself, GSL/OSL/SSL is ranked higher than the Regional of WCS, at least until late 2019/early 2020 where players level really catched up. In your eyes, they all rank the same and thats part of the debate, like winning 2-3 TSL is cool and all, but might not be worth the one SSL that Maru won. And Maru made MULTIPLE Ro4 in GSL, also Ro4 in Blizzcon where sOs won. So if you count that title for sOs, does Maru deserve credit for making those Ro4?
Comparing the common tournament result is fine, although I have to say just because Serral didnt play in DH Valencia doesnt mean Maru didnt deserve his credit for getting to the Final, I would count that toward his record as well.
You cant use GSL argument for Maru against Serral (the same way you cant use WCS EU and others that Maru didnt go). You have to live in Korea to play GSL.
It's by definition stupidity to say that Maru has an edge over Serral if Serral could never play GSL >>> It is by all definitions a region locked system!!
PS: Serral did go to Korea, twice. And he won, twice (Maru was there on both times).
If one wants to compare Serral vs Maru, one has quite an extensive sample to do it. Take premiers both attended. Simple as that. > That sample extends for 6 years! Over 30 premier tourneys!
Its the best way to control the "ifs". "What if Serral had been in the same touney Maru went? Who would have fared better over the years??" >> That question can be answered!
Serral performed twice as better than Maru did in the tourneys both went to. That is indisputed.
On January 26 2024 20:59 Locutus_ wrote: People that count GSL as an argument to put Maru above Serral forget to project this (which are the same people to discount european WCS since 2018): Would Maru have won all those GSL's had Serral, Reynor and Clem been there since their beggining in Starcraft. Imagine Serral in 2018 in GSL, playing there since 2013, kindish... Honestly guys. Do you really thin him, Reynor and Clem wouldnt have won at least a couple of GSL?
Since its impossible to put a finger on a number, just check all the premier tourneys they've been together and see who came out on top...
PS: I only counted tourneys where one of them made Ro4 or more.
That's like saying what if Mvp's wrists didn't give up or Life didn't get banned, so Life and Mvp should be #1 and #2. I think it makes more sense to count the results they have actually achieved and not hypothetical achievements they might or might not have achieved if the circumstances were different.
I just listed their achievements that which they accomplished when both of them participated together... Precisely so we dont have to rely on speculations. And the result is quite clear.
Yeah when looking only at a specific subset of tournaments that fit your agenda and ignoring everything elsr than Serral is the Goat, agreed.
Also funny that you further restricted the events to be only from 2018 onwards because you didn't like the results in the previous events
If you take both of their careers, Serral almost doubles the amount of Premier event wins compared to Maru. (22 vs. 13).
I'm sure this goes without saying, but many (9?) of those are Europe-locked events. Now I'm the absolute last guy to completely discount those victories, but they cannot be viewed as equal to a traditional premier victory when it was Serral beating up on Special/Has/Mana e.g., although they got slightly more important when Reynor ascended and especially Clem.
On January 26 2024 20:59 Locutus_ wrote: People that count GSL as an argument to put Maru above Serral forget to project this (which are the same people to discount european WCS since 2018): Would Maru have won all those GSL's had Serral, Reynor and Clem been there since their beggining in Starcraft. Imagine Serral in 2018 in GSL, playing there since 2013, kindish... Honestly guys. Do you really thin him, Reynor and Clem wouldnt have won at least a couple of GSL?
Since its impossible to put a finger on a number, just check all the premier tourneys they've been together and see who came out on top...
PS: I only counted tourneys where one of them made Ro4 or more.
That's like saying what if Mvp's wrists didn't give up or Life didn't get banned, so Life and Mvp should be #1 and #2. I think it makes more sense to count the results they have actually achieved and not hypothetical achievements they might or might not have achieved if the circumstances were different.
I just listed their achievements that which they accomplished when both of them participated together... Precisely so we dont have to rely on speculations. And the result is quite clear.
Yeah when looking only at a specific subset of tournaments that fit your agenda and ignoring everything elsr than Serral is the Goat, agreed.
Also funny that you further restricted the events to be only from 2018 onwards because you didn't like the results in the previous events
Its just when Serral matured. But also Maru. He has one GSL and on Starleague before that, but you cant compare, since Serral didnt play in any. If you took the premier tourneys in which both Maru and Serral participated, and at least one of them got 4th or more before 2018, it would make almost no difference, cus theres almost none.
An by the way, from 2018 is A LOT of time in SCII history. Its half of it. And its almost all the time of LoTV... So no reason to whine about the time frame.
There are system in tennis tournament, like GrandSlams and ATP Master 1000/500/250. And the GOAT debate has been about whoever won the most GrandSlam and so forth. SC2 has much less of "GrandSlam" tournament, aka IEM/Blizzcon/WESG/Gamers8, but we should agree on where to rank the rest of the tournaments. In most people eyes, including myself, GSL/OSL/SSL is ranked higher than the Regional of WCS, at least until late 2019/early 2020 where players level really catched up. In your eyes, they all rank the same and thats part of the debate, like winning 2-3 TSL is cool and all, but might not be worth the one SSL that Maru won. And Maru made MULTIPLE Ro4 in GSL, also Ro4 in Blizzcon where sOs won. So if you count that title for sOs, does Maru deserve credit for making those Ro4?
Comparing the common tournament result is fine, although I have to say just because Serral didnt play in DH Valencia doesnt mean Maru didnt deserve his credit for getting to the Final, I would count that toward his record as well.
You cant use GSL argument for Maru against Serral (the same way you cant use WCS EU and others that Maru didnt go). You have to live in Korea to play GSL.
Firstly, WCS EU is completely irrelevant for any kind of GOAT list because no other top 10 player competed there, while several did in GSL. They're mostly free wins for Serral
Secondly, Serral could compete in GSL whenever he wants, it's not region locked or required to have citizenship. Reynor, Neeb, Stephano, Scarlett, all played in GSL. Serral chose not to play there.
Thirdly, this is completely irrelevant and you're ignoring the point. It isn't about who is the better player, it's about who has the greatest careers. You can't ignore all of Maru's historic achievements because Serral chose not to play or wasn't a full-time pro yet. By your same reasoning, every tournament before 2018 is meaningless because Serral wasn't around. No one is arguing Maru has the better head2head record.
Head to head arguments/comparison are so irrelevant for goat conversations. If Maru won a Blizzcon and Kato anytime during the 2012-2017 era he would obviously be the objective goat and head to head comparisons vs Serral would be unchanged. Even after 2018 the large majority of internationals he lost at had nothing to do with Serral existing or not.
On January 27 2024 04:04 JJH777 wrote: Head to head arguments/comparison are so irrelevant for goat conversations. If Maru won a Blizzcon and Kato anytime during the 2012-2017 era he would obviously be the objective goat and head to head comparisons vs Serral would be unchanged. Even after 2018 the large majority of internationals he lost at had nothing to do with Serral existing or not.
This is why it's so important to be accurate. You're right that if Maru ever won a Blizzcon/Kato he would probably be an objective GOAT and head to head wouldn't matter. But he didn't. Because it's therefore not clearcut who is the greatest, it's also perfectly reasonable to consider head to head comparisons.
I mean, Maru being a GOAT is pretty clear cut in my book. He is not the flawless GOAT, sure, but only mediocrity can be flawless. Simply put, it is hard to not be GOAT when you were in top tier of the players for over 10 (edit: 11) years at this point out of game's 13 year lifespan. Then you add all the bonus points like being 4th race, outrageous Proleague performances and actual dominance of Korean SC2 for like last 5 years to the point where his losses often look like him playing around with stupid builds because he thinks he is playing ladder.
On January 26 2024 20:59 Locutus_ wrote: People that count GSL as an argument to put Maru above Serral forget to project this (which are the same people to discount european WCS since 2018): Would Maru have won all those GSL's had Serral, Reynor and Clem been there since their beggining in Starcraft. Imagine Serral in 2018 in GSL, playing there since 2013, kindish... Honestly guys. Do you really thin him, Reynor and Clem wouldnt have won at least a couple of GSL?
Since its impossible to put a finger on a number, just check all the premier tourneys they've been together and see who came out on top...
PS: I only counted tourneys where one of them made Ro4 or more.
That's like saying what if Mvp's wrists didn't give up or Life didn't get banned, so Life and Mvp should be #1 and #2. I think it makes more sense to count the results they have actually achieved and not hypothetical achievements they might or might not have achieved if the circumstances were different.
I just listed their achievements that which they accomplished when both of them participated together... Precisely so we dont have to rely on speculations. And the result is quite clear.
Yeah when looking only at a specific subset of tournaments that fit your agenda and ignoring everything elsr than Serral is the Goat, agreed.
Also funny that you further restricted the events to be only from 2018 onwards because you didn't like the results in the previous events
Its just when Serral matured. But also Maru. He has one GSL and on Starleague before that, but you cant compare, since Serral didnt play in any. If you took the premier tourneys in which both Maru and Serral participated, and at least one of them got 4th or more before 2018, it would make almost no difference, cus theres almost none.
An by the way, from 2018 is A LOT of time in SCII history. Its half of it. And its almost all the time of LoTV... So no reason to whine about the time frame.
There are system in tennis tournament, like GrandSlams and ATP Master 1000/500/250. And the GOAT debate has been about whoever won the most GrandSlam and so forth. SC2 has much less of "GrandSlam" tournament, aka IEM/Blizzcon/WESG/Gamers8, but we should agree on where to rank the rest of the tournaments. In most people eyes, including myself, GSL/OSL/SSL is ranked higher than the Regional of WCS, at least until late 2019/early 2020 where players level really catched up. In your eyes, they all rank the same and thats part of the debate, like winning 2-3 TSL is cool and all, but might not be worth the one SSL that Maru won. And Maru made MULTIPLE Ro4 in GSL, also Ro4 in Blizzcon where sOs won. So if you count that title for sOs, does Maru deserve credit for making those Ro4?
Comparing the common tournament result is fine, although I have to say just because Serral didnt play in DH Valencia doesnt mean Maru didnt deserve his credit for getting to the Final, I would count that toward his record as well.
You cant use GSL argument for Maru against Serral (the same way you cant use WCS EU and others that Maru didnt go). You have to live in Korea to play GSL.
Firstly, WCS EU is completely irrelevant for any kind of GOAT list because no other top 10 player competed there, while several did in GSL. They're mostly free wins for Serral
Secondly, Serral could compete in GSL whenever he wants, it's not region locked or required to have citizenship. Reynor, Neeb, Stephano, Scarlett, all played in GSL. Serral chose not to play there.
Can we stop with that please? GSL is basically region-locked. You either had to live in Korea for three months or fly over up to five times or something like that if you would go all the way. Hotel and flying costs alone would probably eat up your GSL earnings, all while worsening your chances in your "main" competition at home. You could otherwise make the argument that GSL is mostly irrelevant, since it basically was just Maru doing well in his living room. He mostly bombed out whenever he wasn't in his absolute comfort zone, which doesn't exactly scream "GOAT". While Serral on the other hand went to Korea actually won, he just made the economically very reasonable decision to not waste his time with GSL.
(Just for clarification: Not particular a take I would do on this whole debate, but if we start being selective, then two can play that game. Includes the entire "Serral won 2018 because Zerg was totally OP that year, clearly proven by the fact that no zerg reached the GSL finals that year!!1"-take...)
On January 26 2024 20:59 Locutus_ wrote: People that count GSL as an argument to put Maru above Serral forget to project this (which are the same people to discount european WCS since 2018): Would Maru have won all those GSL's had Serral, Reynor and Clem been there since their beggining in Starcraft. Imagine Serral in 2018 in GSL, playing there since 2013, kindish... Honestly guys. Do you really thin him, Reynor and Clem wouldnt have won at least a couple of GSL?
Since its impossible to put a finger on a number, just check all the premier tourneys they've been together and see who came out on top...
PS: I only counted tourneys where one of them made Ro4 or more.
That's like saying what if Mvp's wrists didn't give up or Life didn't get banned, so Life and Mvp should be #1 and #2. I think it makes more sense to count the results they have actually achieved and not hypothetical achievements they might or might not have achieved if the circumstances were different.
I just listed their achievements that which they accomplished when both of them participated together... Precisely so we dont have to rely on speculations. And the result is quite clear.
Yeah when looking only at a specific subset of tournaments that fit your agenda and ignoring everything elsr than Serral is the Goat, agreed.
Also funny that you further restricted the events to be only from 2018 onwards because you didn't like the results in the previous events
Its just when Serral matured. But also Maru. He has one GSL and on Starleague before that, but you cant compare, since Serral didnt play in any. If you took the premier tourneys in which both Maru and Serral participated, and at least one of them got 4th or more before 2018, it would make almost no difference, cus theres almost none.
An by the way, from 2018 is A LOT of time in SCII history. Its half of it. And its almost all the time of LoTV... So no reason to whine about the time frame.
There are system in tennis tournament, like GrandSlams and ATP Master 1000/500/250. And the GOAT debate has been about whoever won the most GrandSlam and so forth. SC2 has much less of "GrandSlam" tournament, aka IEM/Blizzcon/WESG/Gamers8, but we should agree on where to rank the rest of the tournaments. In most people eyes, including myself, GSL/OSL/SSL is ranked higher than the Regional of WCS, at least until late 2019/early 2020 where players level really catched up. In your eyes, they all rank the same and thats part of the debate, like winning 2-3 TSL is cool and all, but might not be worth the one SSL that Maru won. And Maru made MULTIPLE Ro4 in GSL, also Ro4 in Blizzcon where sOs won. So if you count that title for sOs, does Maru deserve credit for making those Ro4?
Comparing the common tournament result is fine, although I have to say just because Serral didnt play in DH Valencia doesnt mean Maru didnt deserve his credit for getting to the Final, I would count that toward his record as well.
You cant use GSL argument for Maru against Serral (the same way you cant use WCS EU and others that Maru didnt go). You have to live in Korea to play GSL.
Firstly, WCS EU is completely irrelevant for any kind of GOAT list because no other top 10 player competed there, while several did in GSL. They're mostly free wins for Serral
Secondly, Serral could compete in GSL whenever he wants, it's not region locked or required to have citizenship. Reynor, Neeb, Stephano, Scarlett, all played in GSL. Serral chose not to play there.
Can we stop with that please? GSL is basically region-locked. You either had to live in Korea for three months or fly over up to five times or something like that if you would go all the way. Hotel and flying costs alone would probably eat up your GSL earnings, all while worsening your chances in your "main" competition at home.
Yeah, completely outlandish that anyone would do this. Oh wait, lots of foreigners did this, just not Serral? There was a foreigner teamhouse set up in korea to enable exactly that
On January 27 2024 04:04 JJH777 wrote: Head to head arguments/comparison are so irrelevant for goat conversations. If Maru won a Blizzcon and Kato anytime during the 2012-2017 era he would obviously be the objective goat and head to head comparisons vs Serral would be unchanged. Even after 2018 the large majority of internationals he lost at had nothing to do with Serral existing or not.
I think that's the problem precisely, though. He didn't win that Blizzcon or Kato you're referring to; actually, he had probably the single biggest choke job in the history of SC2, with undisputed GOAT status staring him in the face. It wasn't like Oliveria/Time cheesed him out of 4 games. By and large, he lost a series to a supreme underdog in real games. In a stable match-up that he's been historically great. It'd be like Serral losing a World Championship to Harstem (sorry).
Similarly, because Serral doesn't have an extra IEM to his name, or GSL, he's got flaws in his own GOAT resume. So it comes down to the margins, in which case I think it's totally reasonable to compare their performances in tournaments they've both participated in, or their records against each other. After all, SC2 isn't football, it's tennis--by which I mean a consummate 1v1 game. I don't know how you dismiss those statistics off-hand without bias.
On January 26 2024 20:59 Locutus_ wrote: People that count GSL as an argument to put Maru above Serral forget to project this (which are the same people to discount european WCS since 2018): Would Maru have won all those GSL's had Serral, Reynor and Clem been there since their beggining in Starcraft. Imagine Serral in 2018 in GSL, playing there since 2013, kindish... Honestly guys. Do you really thin him, Reynor and Clem wouldnt have won at least a couple of GSL?
Since its impossible to put a finger on a number, just check all the premier tourneys they've been together and see who came out on top...
PS: I only counted tourneys where one of them made Ro4 or more.
That's like saying what if Mvp's wrists didn't give up or Life didn't get banned, so Life and Mvp should be #1 and #2. I think it makes more sense to count the results they have actually achieved and not hypothetical achievements they might or might not have achieved if the circumstances were different.
I just listed their achievements that which they accomplished when both of them participated together... Precisely so we dont have to rely on speculations. And the result is quite clear.
Yeah when looking only at a specific subset of tournaments that fit your agenda and ignoring everything elsr than Serral is the Goat, agreed.
Also funny that you further restricted the events to be only from 2018 onwards because you didn't like the results in the previous events
Its just when Serral matured. But also Maru. He has one GSL and on Starleague before that, but you cant compare, since Serral didnt play in any. If you took the premier tourneys in which both Maru and Serral participated, and at least one of them got 4th or more before 2018, it would make almost no difference, cus theres almost none.
An by the way, from 2018 is A LOT of time in SCII history. Its half of it. And its almost all the time of LoTV... So no reason to whine about the time frame.
There are system in tennis tournament, like GrandSlams and ATP Master 1000/500/250. And the GOAT debate has been about whoever won the most GrandSlam and so forth. SC2 has much less of "GrandSlam" tournament, aka IEM/Blizzcon/WESG/Gamers8, but we should agree on where to rank the rest of the tournaments. In most people eyes, including myself, GSL/OSL/SSL is ranked higher than the Regional of WCS, at least until late 2019/early 2020 where players level really catched up. In your eyes, they all rank the same and thats part of the debate, like winning 2-3 TSL is cool and all, but might not be worth the one SSL that Maru won. And Maru made MULTIPLE Ro4 in GSL, also Ro4 in Blizzcon where sOs won. So if you count that title for sOs, does Maru deserve credit for making those Ro4?
Comparing the common tournament result is fine, although I have to say just because Serral didnt play in DH Valencia doesnt mean Maru didnt deserve his credit for getting to the Final, I would count that toward his record as well.
You cant use GSL argument for Maru against Serral (the same way you cant use WCS EU and others that Maru didnt go). You have to live in Korea to play GSL.
Firstly, WCS EU is completely irrelevant for any kind of GOAT list because no other top 10 player competed there, while several did in GSL. They're mostly free wins for Serral
Secondly, Serral could compete in GSL whenever he wants, it's not region locked or required to have citizenship. Reynor, Neeb, Stephano, Scarlett, all played in GSL. Serral chose not to play there.
Can we stop with that please? GSL is basically region-locked. You either had to live in Korea for three months or fly over up to five times or something like that if you would go all the way. Hotel and flying costs alone would probably eat up your GSL earnings, all while worsening your chances in your "main" competition at home.
Yeah, completely outlandish that anyone would do this. Oh wait, lots of foreigners did this, just not Serral? There was a foreigner teamhouse set up in korea to enable exactly that
How many GSL's did Maru NOT win? That's why GSL to head to head is irrelevant between foreigner-korean comparison! (when you have better data to analyze).
That form of thought is completely ilogical! Take the win rate of Maru's GSL's... Its what? 7/30ish?
Apply that to any foreigner playing in any given GSL he participates in. Its expected of him (even if he is the best historical player in the region, like Maru) to not win it!
So to make that comparison ("Maru has 7 GSL's and the other??"), the other player would have to have tried a similar amount of times in GSL... otherwise it is ilogical for head to head comparison.
If there was no other data, then we would have to extrapolate from those achievements... But there is. There is plenty.
I get it, that for GOAT discussion, one could go for the overall achievements... But then we are debating further than we should. We should be discussing "What does it mean to be the Greatest?" For me, that means the best... as best we can compare between player's skill/context etc.
On January 27 2024 04:04 JJH777 wrote: Head to head arguments/comparison are so irrelevant for goat conversations. If Maru won a Blizzcon and Kato anytime during the 2012-2017 era he would obviously be the objective goat and head to head comparisons vs Serral would be unchanged. Even after 2018 the large majority of internationals he lost at had nothing to do with Serral existing or not.
I think that's the problem precisely, though. He didn't win that Blizzcon or Kato you're referring to; actually, he had probably the single biggest choke job in the history of SC2, with undisputed GOAT status staring him in the face. It wasn't like Oliveria/Time cheesed him out of 4 games. By and large, he lost a series to a supreme underdog in real games. In a stable match-up that he's been historically great. It'd be like Serral losing a World Championship to Harstem (sorry).
Similarly, because Serral doesn't have an extra IEM to his name, or GSL, he's got flaws in his own GOAT resume. So it comes down to the margins, in which case I think it's totally reasonable to compare their performances in tournaments they've both participated in, or their records against each other. After all, SC2 isn't football, it's tennis--by which I mean a consummate 1v1 game. I don't know how you dismiss those statistics off-hand without bias.
The problem with this approach is that the timeframe of Maru and Serral both competing in tournaments favors Serral due to his later arrival to the scene. Maru at that point had already 7 years of highest level competition behind him and everyone who has competed at professional sports can tell you that it's harder to keep your drive and avoid burnout after such a long time of competing at the top, and Maru was also struggling with injuries etc. so in many of those tournaments it was the best version of Serral vs a slightly declined version of Maru, as for Serral all of his peak years fall into the given timeframe
On January 27 2024 04:04 JJH777 wrote: Head to head arguments/comparison are so irrelevant for goat conversations. If Maru won a Blizzcon and Kato anytime during the 2012-2017 era he would obviously be the objective goat and head to head comparisons vs Serral would be unchanged. Even after 2018 the large majority of internationals he lost at had nothing to do with Serral existing or not.
I think that's the problem precisely, though. He didn't win that Blizzcon or Kato you're referring to; actually, he had probably the single biggest choke job in the history of SC2, with undisputed GOAT status staring him in the face. It wasn't like Oliveria/Time cheesed him out of 4 games. By and large, he lost a series to a supreme underdog in real games. In a stable match-up that he's been historically great. It'd be like Serral losing a World Championship to Harstem (sorry).
Similarly, because Serral doesn't have an extra IEM to his name, or GSL, he's got flaws in his own GOAT resume. So it comes down to the margins, in which case I think it's totally reasonable to compare their performances in tournaments they've both participated in, or their records against each other. After all, SC2 isn't football, it's tennis--by which I mean a consummate 1v1 game. I don't know how you dismiss those statistics off-hand without bias.
The problem with this approach is that the timeframe of Maru and Serral both competing in tournaments favors Serral due to his later arrival to the scene. Maru at that point had already 7 years of highest level competition behind him and everyone who has competed at professional sports can tell you that it's harder to keep your drive and avoid burnout after such a long time of competing at the top, and Maru was also struggling with injuries etc. so in many of those tournaments it was the best version of Serral vs a slightly declined version of Maru, as for Serral all of his peak years fall into the given timeframe
I don't disagree with your point here, I just have no idea how we quantify something like this.
If you had asked me last year before Kato who the GOAT was, I'd likely have said Maru. But his performance in the finals haunts my SC2 brain. It wasn't that he was beaten, it was how he was beaten, with some truly baffling decisions and mistakes over a span of games. If we're talking about the single greatest player that SC2 has produced, I can't forget seeing that with the stakes involved.
On January 27 2024 04:04 JJH777 wrote: Head to head arguments/comparison are so irrelevant for goat conversations. If Maru won a Blizzcon and Kato anytime during the 2012-2017 era he would obviously be the objective goat and head to head comparisons vs Serral would be unchanged. Even after 2018 the large majority of internationals he lost at had nothing to do with Serral existing or not.
I think that's the problem precisely, though. He didn't win that Blizzcon or Kato you're referring to; actually, he had probably the single biggest choke job in the history of SC2, with undisputed GOAT status staring him in the face. It wasn't like Oliveria/Time cheesed him out of 4 games. By and large, he lost a series to a supreme underdog in real games. In a stable match-up that he's been historically great. It'd be like Serral losing a World Championship to Harstem (sorry).
Similarly, because Serral doesn't have an extra IEM to his name, or GSL, he's got flaws in his own GOAT resume. So it comes down to the margins, in which case I think it's totally reasonable to compare their performances in tournaments they've both participated in, or their records against each other. After all, SC2 isn't football, it's tennis--by which I mean a consummate 1v1 game. I don't know how you dismiss those statistics off-hand without bias.
The problem with this approach is that the timeframe of Maru and Serral both competing in tournaments favors Serral due to his later arrival to the scene. Maru at that point had already 7 years of highest level competition behind him and everyone who has competed at professional sports can tell you that it's harder to keep your drive and avoid burnout after such a long time of competing at the top, and Maru was also struggling with injuries etc. so in many of those tournaments it was the best version of Serral vs a slightly declined version of Maru, as for Serral all of his peak years fall into the given timeframe
I don't disagree with your point here, I just have no idea how we quantify something like this.
If you had asked me last year before Kato who the GOAT was, I'd likely have said Maru. But his performance in the finals haunts my SC2 brain. It wasn't that he was beaten, it was how he was beaten, with some truly baffling decisions and mistakes over a span of games. If we're talking about the single greatest player that SC2 has produced, I can't forget seeing that with the stakes involved.
I don't think it has to be quantified, I just think for that reason it's stupid to only look at the tournaments they both participated in and ignore everything else. Your point is fair although Serral also left a likely won game in the ro8 of the same tournament...
At the end of the day I don't even think Maru is the Goat, I think there is no player that clearly stands above the rest and thus sc2 has no Goat. However if I HAD to pick one, I'd say Maru has the best case
On January 27 2024 04:04 JJH777 wrote: Head to head arguments/comparison are so irrelevant for goat conversations. If Maru won a Blizzcon and Kato anytime during the 2012-2017 era he would obviously be the objective goat and head to head comparisons vs Serral would be unchanged. Even after 2018 the large majority of internationals he lost at had nothing to do with Serral existing or not.
I think that's the problem precisely, though. He didn't win that Blizzcon or Kato you're referring to; actually, he had probably the single biggest choke job in the history of SC2, with undisputed GOAT status staring him in the face. It wasn't like Oliveria/Time cheesed him out of 4 games. By and large, he lost a series to a supreme underdog in real games. In a stable match-up that he's been historically great. It'd be like Serral losing a World Championship to Harstem (sorry).
Similarly, because Serral doesn't have an extra IEM to his name, or GSL, he's got flaws in his own GOAT resume. So it comes down to the margins, in which case I think it's totally reasonable to compare their performances in tournaments they've both participated in, or their records against each other. After all, SC2 isn't football, it's tennis--by which I mean a consummate 1v1 game. I don't know how you dismiss those statistics off-hand without bias.
The problem with this approach is that the timeframe of Maru and Serral both competing in tournaments favors Serral due to his later arrival to the scene. Maru at that point had already 7 years of highest level competition behind him and everyone who has competed at professional sports can tell you that it's harder to keep your drive and avoid burnout after such a long time of competing at the top, and Maru was also struggling with injuries etc. so in many of those tournaments it was the best version of Serral vs a slightly declined version of Maru, as for Serral all of his peak years fall into the given timeframe
I don't disagree with your point here, I just have no idea how we quantify something like this.
If you had asked me last year before Kato who the GOAT was, I'd likely have said Maru. But his performance in the finals haunts my SC2 brain. It wasn't that he was beaten, it was how he was beaten, with some truly baffling decisions and mistakes over a span of games. If we're talking about the single greatest player that SC2 has produced, I can't forget seeing that with the stakes involved.
Agreed, it’s a harsh judgement but equally if we’re judging the GOAT it feels we do need to bring such a lens.
If Maru had lost a few of those WC runs in some all-time great series with two S tier players playing their absolute best StarCraft, I feel my perception would be slightly different, despite the same result.
Losing while doing atypical things and making weird errors that you don’t tend to make elsewhere counts for something with such cutthroat competition.
Greatness is as much about seizing a memorable moment as it is purely about winning and skill, and in WCs Maru hasn’t really done that. Mvp being taken to the wire by Squirtle for me further solidified his greatness, more so than if he had stomped him 4-0. Which seems counter-intuitive but sometimes it’s that clutch factor, or maybe winning when you aren’t the best in raw skill that has further defined his legacy.
I still think Maru’s got a good GOAT claim despite that, he’d be basically undisputed with a few WCs, and he’d have a better claim if he’d merely ‘lost better’ in a few of those. For me anyway!