In light of the invasion of Ukraine, IOC (Olympics), FIFA (world cup), UEFA, figure skating, volleyball, badminton, cycling, tennis, F1 have banned Russian teams, athletes, or sponsors. What is ESL/SC2's (or e-sports more broadly) responsibility in the global scene?
If the answer in this case is 'nothing', what happens when China invades Taiwan? We all know Blizzard is a stooge for the CCP, but what about for other games by other companies? Do we just let the progamers compete as if players' lives aren't in danger?
I understand the economic impact of SC2/esports cannot compare to say football, but since e-sports are very international in nature, I feel like the conversation is justified. Thoughts?
No, I don't think they should ban Russian teams/players. I think sc2 organizers should stay out of politics. If there are some stiff regulations that prevents players from competing, then sure, our organizers should oblige and follow their country's rules, but I don't think organizers should go out of their way to make a political statement. They are, of course, completely free to voice their disapproval with the current events, but I think it sets a bad precedent if we start banning players based on what their country is doing.
In regards to China and Taiwan. That is a major big "if" and there's no point in speculating on how we should react at the moment.
people who are competitive video game players arent the cause of any of this and i wish people would stop being so desperate to punish the regular citizens of a country
your location says united states, and just imagine for one second if people treated americans in that way in order to punish the extremely lengthy list of american war crimes
I think there is a big difference between sanctioning the Russian national football team vs. random Russian SC2 players. The former represents the nation and the latter are just people who play video games.
On March 03 2022 14:49 quaristice wrote: people who are competitive video game players arent the cause of any of this and i wish people would stop being so desperate to punish the regular citizens of a country
your location says united states, and just imagine for one second if people treated americans in that way in order to punish the extremely lengthy list of american war crimes
Judging on how RotterdaM said on Monday that Rattata, YoungYakov or other individual Russian players got insulted because of that (and they have nothing to do with it), might be difficult ...
Only individuals who openly approved of the attack and organizations with plausible/direct links to the govt should get cast aside.
EDIT : adding to what honorablemacroterran is writing below, I won't go as far as attacking the motives for the OP's post, but I certainly wouldn't that Blizzard is a puppet of the government of China, either. The Blitchung has been dealt with, good or bad, with sides being taken, move on.
Collective punishment is always a bad idea. It seems that people like you just delight in ruining people's lives for no reason. I think the way you attempted to present this as a leading question is especially unctuous and toxic.
"Oh, I don't know, should we ban all these people from competing? Would that be our responsibility? What about hypothetical?"
Anyone who is receiving government funding (I don't know if this happens at all in Russia) should have to prove that they have stopped accepting it before being allowed to continue imo.
The whole point behind banning any russians for competing in anything is so they will understand that what their president is doing is unacceptable and the population should do something about it if they want shit to get back to normal
I think the existing rules cover misbehavior by players quite well already. If there were a reason to ban these individuals you would be able to list specific reasons they deserve to be banned. As it is, you're just trying to weaponize esports and I don't support that at all. If you think banning Russian players from SC2 tournaments would have any effect on bringing the war to a conclusion you are deluded.
First of all, this idea that it will weaken support for the government being targeted by sanctions has been disproven repeatedly. If anything, it is more likely to galvanize support for the government since people are being punished regardless of whether or not they support the government.
Second, there is no reason to believe that the war is being sustained because it is being supported by Starcraft players who haven't said anything about it publicly.
And last but not least, every individual should be held responsible for their own decisions. Collective punishments are a slippery slope indeed, and if we just start punishing people over things for which they hold no responsibility, where will this end? China, Syria and North Korea are places where collective punishment is common.
On March 03 2022 15:43 honorablemacroterran wrote: I think the existing rules cover misbehavior by players quite well already. If there were a reason to ban these individuals you would be able to list specific reasons they deserve to be banned. As it is, you're just trying to weaponize esports and I don't support that at all. If you think banning Russian players from SC2 tournaments would have any effect on bringing the war to a conclusion you are deluded.
First of all, this idea that it will weaken support for the government being targeted by sanctions has been disproven repeatedly. If anything, it is more likely to galvanize support for the government since people are being punished regardless of whether or not they support the government.
Second, there is no reason to believe that the war is being sustained because it is being supported by Starcraft players who haven't said anything about it publicly.
And last but not least, every individual should be held responsible for their own decisions. Collective punishments are a slippery slope indeed, and if we just start punishing people over things for which they hold no responsibility, where will this end? China, Syria and North Korea are places where collective punishment is common.
I agree that this kind of measure will do nothing to bring the war to an end (of course). However, I still think that if the Russian government in any way benefits from this the something should be done to cut that off. That's why I said anyone receiving funds from the Russian government (for which they clearly expect some benefit in return) should stop doing so before taking part in esports tournaments. The idea then is not to punish Russian esports players but rather cut the government off from the benefits of esports. Other measures such as no Russian flags on esports casts, stuff like that, might be appropriate too.
On March 03 2022 15:31 Drahkn wrote: The whole point behind banning any russians for competing in anything is so they will understand that what their president is doing is unacceptable and the population should do something about it if they want shit to get back to normal
This. Life standards will go worse for Russia due to economic sanctions and yes, a lot of the russians, not only the gamers, are not for the invasion. While I'm not sure they can do something about Putin, I'm also for it due to the reasons you said. It's most probably the reason why they did so in football and other sports events.
The various sporting boycotts of South African athletes were over time an effective push that eventually got apartheid out the door. Many thoroughly decent human beings missed out what would have been the crowning accomplishments earned by their hard work.
Collective punishment, yeah it’s unfair on individuals, but if it’s the only option available vs non-punishment, I don’t know. End of the day the sanctions imposed are liable to be pretty fucking rough for every ordinary Russian as it is.
I mean I’m sure there are many, many more but can’t think of the top of my head. What about eSport figures within the Ukraine? I never thought when I followed White-Ra on Twitter that Id be seeing him posting pictures of the buildings destroyed in his hometown.
It may yet be taken out of eSports organisers’ hands anyway, if nations enact travel/visa restrictions against Russians.
On March 03 2022 17:09 iFU.pauline wrote: Sport should be above conflict and division and not lower itself to the mediocrity of politics.
Have you followed any sport for the last, 90+ years?
What kind of question is that. You disagree, fine, then prove your point instead. My belief is that sport should not get involved in politics, you have a problem with that?
Was USA banned from sports when they invaded Iraq and killed 1+ million innocent civilians, including women and children? No? Then Russia also shouldn't be. Either be consistent and ban all countries for their atrocities or keep politics out of sports.
I don't see much of a point in banning the common, everyday russians from the internet and/or sporting events. If anything, russian diplomats should be expunged from every civilized country and these countries should likewise close their embassies in Russia. Make sure the oligarchs in power in Russia can't enter any other country via private planes/boats/cars and freeze any assets they have overseas.
On March 03 2022 17:09 iFU.pauline wrote: Sport should be above conflict and division and not lower itself to the mediocrity of politics.
Have you followed any sport for the last, 90+ years?
What kind of question is that. You disagree, fine, then prove your point instead. My belief is that sport should not get involved in politics, you have a problem with that?
Russia have had a Winter Olympics, a World Cup, Gazprom as the Champion’s League’s main sponsor and a state-sanctioned doping program within recent times because politics and sport are so compartmentalised right?
I mean sure sport should be above such things, insofar as it’s possible given well, politics is just human interaction after all.
But it’s historically, and with increasing regularity recently been a vehicle for national propaganda and image laundering.
As long as that’s tolerated, I don’t see how international sport can hope to be above the political fray.
It’s possibly going to be a moot point in this case, there may be more general sanctions against Russia such that sportspeople are a casualty by default rather than sport being specifically targeted.
You only ask this because russian scene is very small and isn't important. Now imagine if russians in sc2 were as big as german players or Serral was russian.
the citizenry of a nation is supposed to be responsible for the political leadership that represents them. you'd think that everyone should be held accountable. the catch is that you can only punish those that are weak enough to be punished, and you can't punish those that are too big to punish. who's gonna ban the US / UK from sports because they invaded Iraq for oil? nobody, because that would be diplomatic suicide for everyone else. I wonder how many fans would support a ban on South Korean players if South Korea were to do some horrible shit tomorrow
I think in this particular instance of SC2 esports, you really have to really keep things in perspective. who really cares about starcraft 2? does Putin and his oligarchs even know what starcraft is? so what's the point? sports bans are intended to dissuade the leadership of a nation from doing whatever bad shit it's doing. I see no justification for a ban where the punishment would be fully or 99% borne by the individual. this isn't anything like gymnastics or ice-skating where it might actually put some pressure on the Russian leadership. I don't mind sport should get involved in politics, but only when some good can come out of it
other measures such as no Russian flags on esports casts seems reasonable
Just to add to the discussion, ESL released a statement regarding upcoming CS:GO competitions. They are not allowing "organizations with apparent ties to Russian governement" to participate, but they are allowing the players to "compete under a neutral name, without representing their country, organization or their teams’ sponsors on their clothing or otherwise." source
Imo the fastest way out of this war is by removing Putin from power by the people of russia. While I pitty every russian individual, who is hit by sanctions way harder than Putin himselve, I welcome every single one of them. If that also includes russian athelts from various sports (and e-sport) as well, I m fine with that. Russia needs to remove Putin from power. When the West is comunicating, that everything is going back to normal, as soon as Putin sits behind bars, there are no sanctions, that are to hard. Ban all russian goods (including gas) and all russian participation. Make them hurt for what Putin has done to the European peace. This war is Putins war and he alone is to be blamed for it, but the russian people are those who can end it.
On March 03 2022 14:49 quaristice wrote: people who are competitive video game players arent the cause of any of this and i wish people would stop being so desperate to punish the regular citizens of a country
your location says united states, and just imagine for one second if people treated americans in that way in order to punish the extremely lengthy list of american war crimes
I think the goal of these collective punishments is to make the russian population unhappy with the situation their government has put them in and try to stop it from within.
But in general I see it like it was already mentioned. These players are single persons who happen to live or are born in Russia. Banning them won't do anyone any good
On March 03 2022 14:49 quaristice wrote: people who are competitive video game players arent the cause of any of this and i wish people would stop being so desperate to punish the regular citizens of a country
your location says united states, and just imagine for one second if people treated americans in that way in order to punish the extremely lengthy list of american war crimes
I think the goal of these collective punishments is to make the russian population unhappy with the situation their government has put them in and try to stop it from within.
But in general I see it like it was already mentioned. These players are single persons who happen to live or are born in Russia. Banning them won't do anyone any good
Yeah, because we wanna have a revolution in a country with the 2nd highest nuclear weapon stockpiles. What can go wrong :D
On the topic - no, sport should be above any politics and bringing politics into sports is bad.
On March 03 2022 19:17 dbRic1203 wrote: Imo the fstest way out of this war is by removing Putin from power by the people of russia. While I pitty every russian individual, who is hit by sanctions way harder than Putin himselve, I welcome every single one of them. If that also includes russian athelts from various sports (and e-sport) as well, I m fine with that. Russia needs to remove Putin from power. When the West is comunicating, that everything is going back to normal, as soon as Putin sits behind bars, there are no sanctions, that are to hard. Ban all russian goods (including gas) and all russian participation. Make them hurt for what Putin has done to the European peace. This war is Putins war and he alone is to be blamed for it, but the russian people are those who can end it.
Any peaceful attempt at revolution will result in thousands of political prisoners, beatings and abuse, up to and including murder and disappearances. And it will not lead to success. Check Belarus. A revolution by force will lead to thousands of deaths and an unknown outcome. That's what everyone wants - the continuation of the banquet?
Banning CSGO or Dota/Lol players or organization (or any other big esport in Russia) would almost certainly put a lot more pressure on Russia than some of the smaller sports ban they got until now (like curling or biathlon). Esport is both more popular and popular with a different segment of the population. Excluding esport players to play "under the Russian flag" is silly, it's not an esport tradition to do so anyway.
Economic sanction, expulsion of international event/association or targeted individual sanction are almost by essence unjust for the individuals impacted by them as organization or states unilaterally take them as responsible for a State action (ie invasion of Ukraine) despite a lack of proof or logic that these person had any kind of say with the State action compared to the rest of the population. So it would, for example, be evidently unjust for Skillous personally to get banned from the EPT circuit. It's also unclear whether sanctions work as it seemed to have work in some case (South-Africa or Rhodesia) and backfired terribly in other (North-Korea or Iraq in the 1990).
With that said, sports/esports sanctions are amongst the least hurtful for the population of the country while also impacting a lot of people and hurting the country international image. We can say what we like about a ban on Russian gas for example, but it's the kind of sanction that will send the life of thousands of Russian people into disarray, banning pro-CSGO teams would scrap the life of a couple dozens persons but hurt in a very small way the life of thousands and reduce Russian presence on the international stages.
SC2 feels different because it is not particularly popular in Russia, hence it feel even more unjust for the couple of pro-players, but it's hard to argue that we shouldn't follow the rest of the esport world if it goes there.
Honestly, at the end of the day, I think esport should activate a ban of Russian and Belorussian players and organizations. There was a massively supported motion at the UN condemning the Russian regime and calling for it's isolation, the EU, the US and pretty much all their allies have enacted sanctions and tried to maximize the pressure on Russia and sporting and civil society organizations across the world have boycott Russia and called for others to do so, the esports world has an obligation to follow. True to their Silicon Valley/Tech company roots, esports organization tend to be happy to pretend that they can operate outside state or political affair, but they are major internationals actor whether they like it or not.
On March 03 2022 15:06 honorablemacroterran wrote: Collective punishment is always a bad idea. It seems that people like you just delight in ruining people's lives for no reason. I think the way you attempted to present this as a leading question is especially unctuous and toxic.
"Oh, I don't know, should we ban all these people from competing? Would that be our responsibility? What about hypothetical?"
So scummy. I think we should ban you.
Lol what? OP isn't out to ruin people's lives, he just asks the very valid question if E-Sports should follow the example set by FIFA etc.
Sports are basically never above politics - sporting competitions between rival powers have always been politically loaded. The nationalistic aspect is less significant in esports and especially SC2 because most people are representing themselves, but at the end of the day esports is a business. Every business decision results in a flow of money from one party to another, and money translates to direct economic power. This can never be politically neutral, as much as we would like to think it is - politically unobjectionable maybe, but never politically neutral.
People have brought up the hypocrisy of targeting some countries for their bad behavior but not others. It's absolutely hypocritical that, for example, there is no real international blowback to the USA's wars, or that gulf states complicit in Saudi Arabia's murderous campaign in Yemen continue to be sport sponsors in good standing. As far as I'm concerned these are reasons to target more bad actors, not to give Russia a free pass. Ultimately geopolitics and media bias means the international community will never be fair in this regard, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't take what we can get in terms of accountability.
I don't believe in blanket targeting of all Russian players though. Ban events in Russia, ban sponsors who are close to the Kremlin, and ban national teams, but if some individual player representing nobody but themselves wants to compete they should be allowed to.
Sanctions work, but you can't cut corners. The only way the Russian govt stops this shit is internal pressure, which should come from every direction possible as fast as possible. Nothing gets that pressure to build faster than making it crystal clear that the world sees Russia as a pariah state until something changes.
Glad Wombat mentioned the example of apartheid SA (which I am lucky enough to born in just after that ended). Sanctions were an effective pressure tactic, doubly so given that my country prides itself on its athletes in some sports.
On March 03 2022 22:04 Ciaus_Dronu wrote: Emphatic YES.
Sanctions work, but you can't cut corners. The only way the Russian govt stops this shit is internal pressure, which should come from every direction possible as fast as possible. Nothing gets that pressure to build faster than making it crystal clear that the world sees Russia as a pariah state until something changes.
Glad Wombat mentioned the example of apartheid SA (which I am lucky enough to born in just after that ended). Sanctions were an effective pressure tactic, doubly so given that my country prides itself on its athletes in some sports.
So, how long before sanctions start working in the North Korea and we finally stop losing players to the army because the peninsula will be peaceful?
Sports are basically never above politics - sporting competitions between rival powers have always been politically loaded. The nationalistic aspect is less significant in esports and especially SC2 because most people are representing themselves, but at the end of the day esports is a business. Every business decision results in a flow of money from one party to another, and money translates to direct economic power. This can never be politically neutral, as much as we would like to think it is - politically unobjectionable maybe, but never politically neutral.
People have brought up the hypocrisy of targeting some countries for their bad behavior but not others. It's absolutely hypocritical that, for example, there is no real international blowback to the USA's wars, or that gulf states complicit in Saudi Arabia's murderous campaign in Yemen continue to be sport sponsors in good standing. As far as I'm concerned these are reasons to target more bad actors, not to give Russia a free pass. Ultimately geopolitics and media bias means the international community will never be fair in this regard, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't take what we can get in terms of accountability.
I don't believe in blanket targeting of all Russian players though. Ban events in Russia, ban sponsors who are close to the Kremlin, and ban national teams, but if some individual player representing nobody but themselves wants to compete they should be allowed to.
YES!!! This, exactly this!!! People calling out the hypocricy doesn't want free pass for everyone, but punishment for everyone!
On March 03 2022 22:04 Ciaus_Dronu wrote: Emphatic YES.
Sanctions work, but you can't cut corners. The only way the Russian govt stops this shit is internal pressure, which should come from every direction possible as fast as possible. Nothing gets that pressure to build faster than making it crystal clear that the world sees Russia as a pariah state until something changes.
Glad Wombat mentioned the example of apartheid SA (which I am lucky enough to born in just after that ended). Sanctions were an effective pressure tactic, doubly so given that my country prides itself on its athletes in some sports.
So, how long before sanctions start working in the North Korea and we finally stop losing players to the army because the peninsula will be peaceful?
That's a fucking stupid comparison
A large portion of the Russian population have become used to not being part of a pariah state - and will want to return to that. And autocratic as it may be, the Russian people have a lot more power over their country as a whole than the North Korean people do (especially true when you consider that some oligarchs, celebrities and even politicians have spoken out against the war).
I do not see this really mattering much, and ESL seem to have made ruling that they are fine with Russian players as long as they or their teams don't show off them being Russian or have connections to the government. Basically same kind of treatment as Russian athletes had in Olympics. Also, it seems like it will become extremely hard to travel from Russia to anywhere. No direct flights. Plane leases ending. No spare parts from manufacturers. Only a few trains, no visas, and so on. This will be big problem if/when offline events start to return as pandemic hopefully ends.
More impactful way could be if game publishers and developers pulled their services and servers out, but that would affect everyone playing in Russia and not just pro-players. This could happen as many other industries are already pulling out.
On March 03 2022 22:04 Ciaus_Dronu wrote: Emphatic YES.
Sanctions work, but you can't cut corners. The only way the Russian govt stops this shit is internal pressure, which should come from every direction possible as fast as possible. Nothing gets that pressure to build faster than making it crystal clear that the world sees Russia as a pariah state until something changes.
Glad Wombat mentioned the example of apartheid SA (which I am lucky enough to born in just after that ended). Sanctions were an effective pressure tactic, doubly so given that my country prides itself on its athletes in some sports.
So, how long before sanctions start working in the North Korea and we finally stop losing players to the army because the peninsula will be peaceful?
Sports are basically never above politics - sporting competitions between rival powers have always been politically loaded. The nationalistic aspect is less significant in esports and especially SC2 because most people are representing themselves, but at the end of the day esports is a business. Every business decision results in a flow of money from one party to another, and money translates to direct economic power. This can never be politically neutral, as much as we would like to think it is - politically unobjectionable maybe, but never politically neutral.
People have brought up the hypocrisy of targeting some countries for their bad behavior but not others. It's absolutely hypocritical that, for example, there is no real international blowback to the USA's wars, or that gulf states complicit in Saudi Arabia's murderous campaign in Yemen continue to be sport sponsors in good standing. As far as I'm concerned these are reasons to target more bad actors, not to give Russia a free pass. Ultimately geopolitics and media bias means the international community will never be fair in this regard, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't take what we can get in terms of accountability.
I don't believe in blanket targeting of all Russian players though. Ban events in Russia, ban sponsors who are close to the Kremlin, and ban national teams, but if some individual player representing nobody but themselves wants to compete they should be allowed to.
YES!!! This, exactly this!!! People calling out the hypocricy doesn't want free pass for everyone, but punishment for everyone!
Russia is many things, but it is not a closed society. There is propaganda, as there is everywhere, but it's still pretty damn open in terms of ability to access information from all over the globe.
Russians have been free to kick my arse and trash talk me while doing it in CS:GO for many a year, North Koreans do not have this kind of wider exposure to the rest of the world. There's Russian expatriates all over the place, hell there's many a Russian on TL
Russians have the ability to notice and feel sanctions bite, wonder why life has got worse and, oh yeah that's the reason why in a manner that isn't comparable to North Korea at all. They don't have the ability to even have a frame of reference with which to judge their lot by, so it is difficult to turn the screw as it were in that society.
As per my South African example, I imagine all sorts of spin was put on it by the Apartheid regime sure, but they couldn't keep it secret why the country was subject to cultural boycotts and economic censure, and thus the question turns to 'is it worth keeping this system that is attracting all this international blowback? Oh and it's a terrible system anyway'
Setting aside of course the many people who had strong moral objections throughout, and would have regardless of any outside pressure.
It's a slow process, it's not universally applicable, it can require a significant commitment to boycotting in various forms but it can be effective, and has been shown to be.
It gradually shifts the opposition to a level where it is simply unassailable. Those who maybe disagreed with apartheid, but were afraid to raise their head above the parapet grew in number and were emboldened over time. Some who were pro-apartheid over time may have evolved and changed their minds on the issue. Eventually the pro-apartheid cohort gets subsumed by the shift and hey presto, thing's change.
On March 03 2022 22:04 Ciaus_Dronu wrote: Emphatic YES.
Sanctions work, but you can't cut corners. The only way the Russian govt stops this shit is internal pressure, which should come from every direction possible as fast as possible. Nothing gets that pressure to build faster than making it crystal clear that the world sees Russia as a pariah state until something changes.
Glad Wombat mentioned the example of apartheid SA (which I am lucky enough to born in just after that ended). Sanctions were an effective pressure tactic, doubly so given that my country prides itself on its athletes in some sports.
So, how long before sanctions start working in the North Korea and we finally stop losing players to the army because the peninsula will be peaceful?
That's a fucking stupid comparison
A large portion of the Russian population have become used to not being part of a pariah state - and will want to return to that. And autocratic as it may be, the Russian people have a lot more power over their country as a whole than the North Korean people do (especially true when you consider that some oligarchs, celebrities and even politicians have spoken out against the war).
I think the proper comparison is broad based sanctions impacting everyone versus targeted sanctions that go after elites/power brokers. The former have a very poor record of changing the behavior of leaders (as in North Korea/Cuba/Iraq/Iran), whereas the latter have had some success. Sanctions targeting specific sports teams/sponsors are more likely to directly impact business elites, who are more Putin's constituency than the public. Granted, Putin does have quite a bit of popular support too, but a conflict between business interests and his revanchist aspirations has a chance of constraining him somewhat.
A promising sign so far is that most sanctions against Russia so far seem more narrowly targeted, though of course Russia's currency crisis (and their frozen central bank reserves) are going to hurt normal people to an extent.
On March 03 2022 22:04 Ciaus_Dronu wrote: Emphatic YES.
Sanctions work, but you can't cut corners. The only way the Russian govt stops this shit is internal pressure, which should come from every direction possible as fast as possible. Nothing gets that pressure to build faster than making it crystal clear that the world sees Russia as a pariah state until something changes.
Glad Wombat mentioned the example of apartheid SA (which I am lucky enough to born in just after that ended). Sanctions were an effective pressure tactic, doubly so given that my country prides itself on its athletes in some sports.
So, how long before sanctions start working in the North Korea and we finally stop losing players to the army because the peninsula will be peaceful?
That's a fucking stupid comparison
A large portion of the Russian population have become used to not being part of a pariah state - and will want to return to that. And autocratic as it may be, the Russian people have a lot more power over their country as a whole than the North Korean people do (especially true when you consider that some oligarchs, celebrities and even politicians have spoken out against the war).
I think the proper comparison is broad based sanctions impacting everyone versus targeted sanctions that go after elites/power brokers. The former have a very poor record of changing the behavior of leaders (as in North Korea/Cuba/Iraq/Iran), whereas the latter have had some success. Sanctions targeting specific sports teams/sponsors are more likely to directly impact business elites, who are more Putin's constituency than the public. Granted, Putin does have quite a bit of popular support too, but a conflict between business interests and his revanchist aspirations has a chance of constraining him somewhat.
A promising sign so far is that most sanctions against Russia so far seem more narrowly targeted, though of course Russia's currency crisis (and their frozen central bank reserves) are going to hurt normal people to an extent.
In this case, doing both would be pretty effective, or could be.
As I said, there's not really any hard and fast rules, there's a fair amount of moving parts and different circumstances. What is the political/socio-cultural state of the country. What are the actual goal of sanctions? Is it wider, multilateral sanctions or is it a unilateral trade embargo? US loves its unilateral sanctions that basically equate to 'be our bitch' in countries they've literally tried to overthrow leaders in and wonder why they don't work.
All sanctions have to do to be effective is tilt things sufficiently in terms of discontent that Putin fears it cascading to a point where an appetite for regime change could form, and pull out of Ukraine before that happens. A popular uprising might be the absolute dream ticket for many of us, but what I outlined is still a win.
On March 03 2022 15:28 Jockmcplop wrote: Anyone who is receiving government funding (I don't know if this happens at all in Russia) should have to prove that they have stopped accepting it before being allowed to continue imo.
I like this approach a lot. I guess since we do not have something like a "Russian eSports Fedaration" that actually nominates and allows players to take part in SC2 Events, our case is different from Football, Olympics etc. (and if such a body exists, it does not have authority over players participating to my knowledge)
I would assume that based on the above, for SC2 I am 70:30 to not ban anyone.
For team leagues, this would be more complicated for me.
Esports wanted to be taken serious for years, But with that come certain responsibilities. When every regular sport is banning russian teams and players, Esports has to take action aswell. And since ESL already started that process in CS:GO, I can't imagine it won't swap over to other divisions aswell.
It's one of the stupidest sanctions. I'm betting most athletes aren't fans of Putin or the war. You don't punish an athlete for having far right views but somehow you get to punish them because some dictator in their country does.
On March 03 2022 15:31 Drahkn wrote: The whole point behind banning any russians for competing in anything is so they will understand that what their president is doing is unacceptable and the population should do something about it if they want shit to get back to normal
What they will understand is that there's a war going on and we've decided that they are the enemy, without regard for their actual beliefs.
Hate to see this even being discussed. Let's be real, it's xenophobia and mob mentality. Putin is a tyrant, Russian e-sports players and average citizens have no choice in the matter.
On March 03 2022 15:31 Drahkn wrote: The whole point behind banning any russians for competing in anything is so they will understand that what their president is doing is unacceptable and the population should do something about it if they want shit to get back to normal
What they will understand is that there's a war going on and we've decided that they are the enemy, without regard for their actual beliefs.
Well that's kind of the point, increase the pressure on the Russian state by making the cost of war as high as possible without using lethal force. It's very much a war-by-other-means that the west is unleashing on Russia in the last few days, and you don't do that without hurting the population in one way or another. And yes it's perfectly indiscriminate upon one belief (although the west has been willing to help Russian political from time to time opponent, so it's at least that).
But if we are doing sanctions, banning esports player and other ceremonial type sanction is pretty much as close as one can get to hurting the states without hurting the population. It's in the realm of diplomatic sanction and should be among the first one enacted.
Maybe it will work, maybe not, but since the dices have already been casted, I feel like esports should follow, better to mount the pressure in little way and work to avoid way more important sanction that could come latter if nothing changes.
I think the logic behind sports bans is that all sports are a platform on which you represent more than yourself: you also stand for your country and (often in case of esports) an organization. Competing will make yourself appear in a very positive light and will project this effect on your country/organization. (This also applies to the organizers and is one reason why all sorts of countries with sometimes dubious reputations try to host large sports events). Because of its platform character, sport is never apolitical.
As an organizer, I assume you want to take away this opportunity of positive representation. I suppose you have two choices: treat the exclusion of the athletes as a sad but necessary measure or try to separate the representative side from the individual side (as ESL is trying to do).
On March 03 2022 18:00 TheCheapSkate wrote: Was USA banned from sports when they invaded Iraq and killed 1+ million innocent civilians, including women and children? No? Then Russia also shouldn't be. Either be consistent and ban all countries for their atrocities or keep politics out of sports.
Valid point. Russians do not share a collective mind and civilians are not accountable for this. Things have not been going too well for them for a long time.. They will suffer enough for all the trade sanctions.
The pro SC2 Russian scene is literally like 5 players. Those of you who advocate that these players should be banned because they should be out resisting the Russian government instead and risk their lives are flat out delusional.
On March 04 2022 05:21 Hunta15 wrote: The pro SC2 Russian scene is literally like 5 players. Those of you who advocate that these players should be banned because they should be out resisting the Russian government instead and risk their lives are flat out delusional.
Banning those players would not do anything.
Yeah as if these players have any sway in anything at all. It's ridiculous. Why would we / they / anyone make this political when there's no benefit for any party to do so? It's not like banning the handful of semi-professional players of a mostly defunct scene is going to really change global politics.
The arguments in favour of such a ban, and similar have been pretty articulately made, bar mine.
Argue against them, or don’t, by all means.
It’s fucking ridiculous how many takes are literally things that have already been addressed, and yes there’s plenty of space for disagreement on those terms but it’s just sidestepping points that have already been made.
Ban the Americans for Aggression in Syria, Lybia, Afghanistan, Iraq (and casual bombing of african countries). Then ban the Saudis for the war in Yemen. Don't forget the israelis for constantly fucking up palistine and bombing Syria at will. After that... you can ban the russians.
On March 04 2022 06:54 Freeborn wrote: Ban the Americans for Aggression in Syria, Lybia, Afghanistan, Iraq (and casual bombing of african countries). Then ban the Saudis for the war in Yemen. Don't forget the israelis for constantly fucking up palistine and bombing Syria at will. After that... you can ban the russians.
Just don't be hypocritical.
Didn't Saudis just bought the SC2 e-sport? I mean it's pretty pathetic to argue to ban Russians when they drop bombs in Yemen and every looks away. But the hypocricy is strong with the west, so w/e i guess
On March 04 2022 06:54 Freeborn wrote: Ban the Americans for Aggression in Syria, Lybia, Afghanistan, Iraq (and casual bombing of african countries). Then ban the Saudis for the war in Yemen. Don't forget the israelis for constantly fucking up palistine and bombing Syria at will. After that... you can ban the russians.
Just don't be hypocritical.
Didn't Saudis just bought the SC2 e-sport? I mean it's pretty pathetic to argue to ban Russians when they drop bombs in Yemen and every looks away. But the hypocricy is strong with the west, so w/e i guess
This right here highlights the hypocrisy like you said. The Saudis just bought ESL right. Just look at all the atrocious things they've done. This fund actually has connections to the people with power in Saudi Arabia not just the average person.
Ban the Russian players though, they're the problem.
The people saying it will get the people to be mad at Putin and help the cause are dead wrong, people will start to agree with Putin being an average Russian being hit by sanctions from the west for things they have nothing to do with.
Its disgusting to see the hypocrisy, xenophobia, and bigotry in this thread.
On March 04 2022 06:54 Freeborn wrote: Ban the Americans for Aggression in Syria, Lybia, Afghanistan, Iraq (and casual bombing of african countries). Then ban the Saudis for the war in Yemen. Don't forget the israelis for constantly fucking up palistine and bombing Syria at will. After that... you can ban the russians.
Just don't be hypocritical.
The hypocritical argument is a good one to reflect upon the injustice of the world and the US and their allies abilities to act terribly without to much consequence, but somewhat missing the point about if esport companies should enact a ban on Russia. The discussion is not, "Should esport organizations enact moral judgements about States actions and ban players in retaliation", but "Should esport organizations join an already active global movement of sanction and isolation against Russia enacted as a mean to stop the invasion of Ukraine and/or dissuade further military venture."
Obviously the two questions crosses but they are not the same. Esport organization are not autonomous actors on the global stage and it's very different to chose to act in isolation upon a moral ideal and chose to act (or not to act) when a window of opportunity appear, especially when States and international organization that should in theory lead global diplomacy and internationals actions put their back behind it.
There has been tries to enact similar response against both the US for invading Iraq and against Israel, the fact that they didn't get any traction (well the Israel one got a little bit) is probably not fair and hypocritical in the sense that it highlight that the US super power status made them essentially impervious to such attempt, but it doesn't evacuate the initial point. Ukrainian people will not get killed in higher or smaller number because of it (well maybe in the long run of history and geopolitics but that's another question).
I don't think many people would argue against the South African expulsion from world wide sports and the Olympics during the Apartheid regime, which does not mean that equally reprehensible actions have not been perpetrated by other country during the same period. Probably wasn't "fair" to the white South-Africans, didn't make it wrong.
I'm not even necessarily sure I'm on board with sanction and ban, but whats-a-bout-ism doesn't take us very far by itself.
On March 03 2022 18:00 TheCheapSkate wrote: Was USA banned from sports when they invaded Iraq and killed 1+ million innocent civilians, including women and children? No? Then Russia also shouldn't be. Either be consistent and ban all countries for their atrocities or keep politics out of sports.
These people have insane levels of cognitive dissonance. Don't bother.
I think everyone getting all excited over the opportunity to virtue signal by banning 5 people from competing in Starcraft tournaments is equal parts hilarious and nauseating. Consider your life priorities.
On March 03 2022 19:17 dbRic1203 wrote: Imo the fastest way out of this war is by removing Putin from power by the people of russia. While I pitty every russian individual, who is hit by sanctions way harder than Putin himselve, I welcome every single one of them. If that also includes russian athelts from various sports (and e-sport) as well, I m fine with that. Russia needs to remove Putin from power. When the West is comunicating, that everything is going back to normal, as soon as Putin sits behind bars, there are no sanctions, that are to hard. Ban all russian goods (including gas) and all russian participation. Make them hurt for what Putin has done to the European peace. This war is Putins war and he alone is to be blamed for it, but the russian people are those who can end it.
The Russian people have no more power to topple Putin's government than the Chinese do to overthrow the CCP, or the American right did to stop Biden from becoming president. This isn't 1658. Modern weaponry, technology, surveillance and other forms of control allow a small group of people to assert huge influence and wield absolute power over huge populations these days. You are more likely to get nuclear war than you are to get Putin to stand down due to sanctions and domestic protest (which is part of why all of this is so dangerous and stupid). Ukraine isn't even completely innocent in all this. Russia had been telling NATO to stop pushing east since 2004. If Ukraine had allied with the West, Russia would have had enemy bases going up in East Ukraine virtually a stone's throw from Moscow. You think the United States would allow Mexico or Canada to pull out of all treaties and alliances with them and have the Chinese or Russians set up military bases and nukes within miles of the border? Of course not. The US was willing to go to nuclear war when the Soviet Union wanted to install long range missiles in Cuba during the Cold War.
Realistically, this war ends when Ukraine and Russia sign a cease fire after concessions are made.
On March 04 2022 09:11 honorablemacroterran wrote: I think everyone getting all excited over the opportunity to virtue signal by banning 5 people from competing in Starcraft tournaments is equal parts hilarious and nauseating. Consider your life priorities.
On March 04 2022 05:21 Hunta15 wrote: The pro SC2 Russian scene is literally like 5 players. Those of you who advocate that these players should be banned because they should be out resisting the Russian government instead and risk their lives are flat out delusional.
Banning those players would not do anything.
Yeah all of this. ESPECIALLY in the context of Starcraft. I don't think Russian Starcraft pros are anywhere near adjacent to the Putin administration or the imperialists.
I'd be shocked if there were any Russians who are technologically savvy and can speak some English who are unaware of what is happening, and I'd be even more shocked if they were in support of it. The people we (and by that I don't literally mean us the Starcraft community) need to reach are likely the older generations who are only able to consume the local government run media outlets available to them. I don't see how banning Russian players helps anything so I don't support that. I think at this stage ESL are being fair enough by not allowing them to represent their country.
A compromise I see in other areas is keeping people in if they condemn the war, but that is forcing people to state an opinion which might have them imprisoned.
I know too little of the situation in Russia to have an opinion on which measures could actually make Putin chance his mind. My current theory is that he only cares about not being humiliated on the battlefield and losing face as a strongman. When these occur, he will end the war.
USA invaded Cuba on 1961. USA invaded and bombed Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia from 1955 to 1975. USA invaded Dominican Republic on 1964. USA invaded Grenada on 1983. USA bombed Libya on 1986 and 2015-2019. USA shoot down an Iranian civil in 1988 inside Iranian territory. USA invaded Panama on 1989. USA-led NATO bombed Yugoslavia on 1999. USA invaded Iraq on 2003. USA-backed Israel invaded and occupied neighboring countries' territory from 1948 to present. From its independence to present, USA was at war most of time. Should they get banned at top priority?
Pretty insane that people are actually trying to justify punishing innocents for government affairs. No one is banning Chinese players for their government's treatment of their own people. Why should Russian players not be able to play? Neither Chinese players nor Russian players have any control over what their authoritarian governments do.
Playing under a nationless / unaffiliated flag is so much better than not allowing them to play at all. The Russian economy is already in the trash, so pro players may rely on winnings now more than ever.
I'd say no. It is good to make the people of Russia aware that the international community unanimously condemns the war. And it would be good if things like this could lead to people putting pressure on the regime.
But it's also important to not alienate the Russian people too much. We must show them that we are concerned about the war, but that we are not acting on some irrational russophobia. We want them to want to be a part of the international community again.
The second thing is that Insulating the population from the outside world is what many dictators want. It is so much easier to sell conspiracy theories about nazis and fascists and about how threatening the west is to a population that has no contact with the outside world.
We must rather signal to the Russian population that all the bad shit that is happening to them now is because of Putin and his war.
On March 04 2022 09:11 honorablemacroterran wrote: I think everyone getting all excited over the opportunity to virtue signal by banning 5 people from competing in Starcraft tournaments is equal parts hilarious and nauseating. Consider your life priorities.
Virtue signalling is a stupid term, much overused
Like it or not Russia is subject to all sorts of general sanctions, and other sporting boycotts now, people are discussing how that might affect this area.
In the auld life priorities how does playing video games for money stack up against your neighbourhood being shelled?
Btw guys just so we're clear the reason why it shouldn't happen is because it's a silly sanction, not because we didn't do it for Americans or whatever. If you're making the argument that the issue is the double standard, then the correct action is to ban Russians now and to then ban Americans as well the next time the US does a war. This is not where you want to end up.
This conversation can (and arguably should) get very philosophical, but at base there are only a few real options here. It seems very unfair (and pointless) to ban all Russian players from a small-scale individual sport like Starcraft. Some kind of ban on Russian esports organizations seems possible, esp since they're likely to have ties to Russian business interests and don't have that much of a presence in EU SC iirc.
I guess maybe the most straightforward option would be to just not let Russia compete in any upcoming Nation Wars? To keep with the basic global standard of banning symbolic participation.
I would generally favor as light a regime as possible, but I do think it's important for decision-makers to come to a consensus on this so you don't end up with a situation where ordinary people and particular organizers decide to take "punishment" into their own hands.
Yes. The point is that even if people are innocent and not on the ground killing Ukranians, they suffer the consequences of their government. The sanctions and measures in place aren't affecting Putin or the ruling class, they're meant to pressure the general population to reject the government's war, and it's already working.
I feel bad that many of the people didn't want this, but it's not like life just goes on for regular Russians while Ukranians are literally being blown up in their homes.
So many people have already written the stuff I think are essential. International sports have always been political, be it from an economic or a patriotic stand point. - There is a lot of money in sports - Having sports competitions instead of violence (read wars) is the historical context, and it still stays true (American football was explicitly designed to have men "play war" instead of doing actual violence).
There is a big movement of sanctions because of an active war. Should the SC2 scene act? Pro sanctions: any increasing pressure on both the regime and the population will empower all sanctions. Anti sanctions: the Russian SC2 scene is super small and the effect will be negligible.
Arguments in the line of "why don't sanction X and Y, why just Russia?" is another discussion, It is not this discussion. That discussion would be more about gathering support from different organisations to make a big communal effort in the long term. The communal effort for sanctions against Russia is already here. Should we join or not?
My personal opinion is to remove things like flags should be enough of a statement from the SC2 scene. The individual cyberathletes can compete without representing Russia. Ban the nation, not the players. Our scene is far too small in Russia for it to matter.
On March 05 2022 04:52 Drfilip wrote: So many people have already written the stuff I think are essential. International sports have always been political, be it from an economic or a patriotic stand point. - There is a lot of money in sports - Having sports competitions instead of violence (read wars) is the historical context, and it still stays true (American football was explicitly designed to have men "play war" instead of doing actual violence).
There is a big movement of sanctions because of an active war. Should the SC2 scene act? Pro sanctions: any increasing pressure on both the regime and the population will empower all sanctions. Anti sanctions: the Russian SC2 scene is super small and the effect will be negligible.
Arguments in the line of "why don't sanction X and Y, why just Russia?" is another discussion, It is not this discussion. That discussion would be more about gathering support from different organisations to make a big communal effort in the long term. The communal effort for sanctions against Russia is already here. Should we join or not?
My personal opinion is to remove things like flags should be enough of a statement from the SC2 scene. The individual cyberathletes can compete without representing Russia. Ban the nation, not the players. Our scene is far too small in Russia for it to matter.
Your opinion is your opinion and that's fine. I'm just not sure why this was ever an option or suggested. It's been a laughingstock at the Olympic level because everybody knows what the 'ROC' means and it hasn't changed anything with those sports or the rampant cheating by those athletes. Case in point:
I dont think its bad to ban, and its not a disaster not to ban either since sc2 is so small and the streamers have such a small audience. A ban would be logical since the war started recently and it doesnt seem that the lunatic Putin and the braindead soldiers killing and bombing innocent people and an innocent country doesnt care about much of the sanctions so far . So as much harm that can be done to russia is good, because it MIGHT lead to the russian people eventually will be fed up and starting to fight against their own counties crime against humanity. And let be honest, a 15 yo russian player playing a game, and suddenly is not allowed to compete at some tourneys.... thats not a horrible punishment. They will understand and survive. Hopefully they will end up fighting against their insane leader and his inhumae ways.
I actualy think the russain players would understand if there was a ban. It would actually be insane if they didnt. At least as long as russia is advancing and killing more and more people and destroying the lifes of completely innocent people.
But if there is no ban, it is most likely not an issue since the platform for sc2 is quite small. And i HOPE that the players doesnt support Putin (even though many russians are)
I am surprised that people doesnt understand that other people are upset that russia is invading an innocent country. And I am also surprised about the weird argument "there are other horrible things in the world, so lets not do anything now".... with that logic, noone will never make any action to any country ever.
On March 05 2022 04:21 renaissanceMAN wrote: Yes. The point is that even if people are innocent and not on the ground killing Ukranians, they suffer the consequences of their government. The sanctions and measures in place aren't affecting Putin or the ruling class, they're meant to pressure the general population to reject the government's war, and it's already working.
I feel bad that many of the people didn't want this, but it's not like life just goes on for regular Russians while Ukranians are literally being blown up in their homes.
Indeed, conversely us in the West are too insulated from what our nation’s do. Aside from benefitting from a certain quality of living, or suffering in that regard depending where we live.
Unfortunately sanctions aren’t exactly applied equitably, do we, or the US go into Iraq, much less stay there for that length of time with a populace directly affected by those decisions?
If the US especially didn’t have Israel’s back on exhibiting a modicum of restraint and it was hit with meaningful sanction, do those voices wanting a more humane approach to Palestine get louder or more plentiful?
Im under no illusions that it’s a foolproof strat, or would work every time. Collectively tying a populace to the actions of their leaders tethers them to the consequences of actions done in their name.
Just because it wasn’t done to Americans, or us Brits doesn’t mean I think should be off the table for Russians. It should have happened to us too but, hey it didn’t.
On March 05 2022 04:21 renaissanceMAN wrote: Yes. The point is that even if people are innocent and not on the ground killing Ukranians, they suffer the consequences of their government. The sanctions and measures in place aren't affecting Putin or the ruling class, they're meant to pressure the general population to reject the government's war, and it's already working.
I feel bad that many of the people didn't want this, but it's not like life just goes on for regular Russians while Ukranians are literally being blown up in their homes.
Indeed, conversely us in the West are too insulated from what our nation’s do. Aside from benefitting from a certain quality of living, or suffering in that regard depending where we live.
Unfortunately sanctions aren’t exactly applied equitably, do we, or the US go into Iraq, much less stay there for that length of time with a populace directly affected by those decisions?
If the US especially didn’t have Israel’s back on exhibiting a modicum of restraint and it was hit with meaningful sanction, do those voices wanting a more humane approach to Palestine get louder or more plentiful?
Im under no illusions that it’s a foolproof strat, or would work every time. Collectively tying a populace to the actions of their leaders tethers them to the consequences of actions done in their name.
Just because it wasn’t done to Americans, or us Brits doesn’t mean I think should be off the table for Russians. It should have happened to us too but, hey it didn’t.
What goes around, comes around; we'll have to deal with it in other ways. Agreed that things like this are not equal across all circumstances, but I don't think it means it shouldn't be done.
[QUOTE]On March 05 2022 06:05 WombaT wrote: [QUOTE]On March 05 2022 04:21 renaissanceMAN wrote: It should have happened to us too but, hey it didn’t. [/QUOTE]
Imagine being so out of touch with reality that you are making the argument that you think your own country should have been subject to sanctions just so you can continue to campaign to ban some powerless people from playing a relatively small video game without looking like a hypocrite, instead of realizing that what you're on about is absolutely insane.
"All of my money is worthless and I can't even get it out of the bank but at least we're getting what we deserve!" - said no one ever
This thread is literally nothing but virtue signaling. The fact that even most of the people in favor of banning the players know that it won't actually accomplish anything, but they still want to do it, just convinces me of something Artosis said a few months ago: TL is stupider than youtube comments.
On March 05 2022 05:47 honorablemacroterran wrote: People who think Starcraft tournaments are inherently political are out of their fucking minds.
Nobody: Hey, who wants to shit all over some powerless people who barely make any money to send a message to Pootin? Half this thread: SIGN ME UP FAM
Meanwhile the same people were acting so upset over the Chinese players maybe not being able to get visas for Katowice.
Nobody has said that though. Do you just have a straw man ready to post before even reading the thread?
Starcraft isn’t inherently political, it just doesn’t exist in some alternate dimension, insulated from politics.
There are regular, commercial sanctions that effect ordinary Russians. There are regular sporting sanctions (also, unlike eSports a very politicised arena), the discussion is what will be, or what should be the impact on this scene.
For fuck’s sake the scene loses firm favourites every year to military service. Military service they have no choice in doing that is imposed, for no political reason whatsoever.
ESL can’t just go ‘ok I know Russians are banned from travelling (I know this isn’t a current sanction, but hypothetical), but we’ll get them into our tournaments, Starcraft is not political.’’
Also I don’t see any connection or hypocrisy between thinking sanctions are appropriate and it sucking that Chinese players might not have got visas for Katowice :S
I don’t bloody WANT Russians around the world to be turfed out of their fields, it fucking sucks for them. Equally I really, really don’t want a country being you know, invaded.
As the aptly named Renaissance Man said, yeah it’s unfair, that’s kind of the point.
[QUOTE]On March 05 2022 06:20 honorablemacroterran wrote: [QUOTE]On March 05 2022 06:05 WombaT wrote: [QUOTE]On March 05 2022 04:21 renaissanceMAN wrote: It should have happened to us too but, hey it didn’t. [/QUOTE]
Imagine being so out of touch with reality that you are making the argument that you think your own country should have been subject to sanctions just so you can continue to campaign to ban some powerless people from playing a relatively small video game without looking like a hypocrite, instead of realizing that what you're on about is absolutely insane.
"All of my money is worthless and I can't even get it out of the bank but at least we're getting what we deserve!" - said no one ever
This thread is literally nothing but virtue signaling. The fact that even most of the people in favor of banning the players know that it won't actually accomplish anything, but they still want to do it, just convinces me of something Artosis said a few months ago: TL is stupider than youtube comments.[/QUOTE] Artosis is generally sensible when not streaming Brood War but that’s a pretty shocking take haha.
Yes. In a nutshell. I’m advocating for the absolute opposite of virtue signalling anyway. I’m not sitting around changing my Facebook picture to have a Ukrainian flag, I’m advocating for sanctions as a method of applying real consequences, in this specific instance and also as a general approach that should also include my own nation in that.
I don’t see my particular view of reality as being any more naive than trying to compartmentalise things as being completely unrelated to each other and thus beyond the scope of fair consequence. End of the day the Russian state is invading Ukraine presently. Plenty of Russians oppose this but plenty do not.
War is the most costly endeavour humanity can undergo. A cost that is not felt by most of us. I can say, and did say I was opposed to the Iraq war and that’s about it, nothing to do with me.
When it does become your business, via whatever measure of broader sanction, well it tends to focus oneself on quite to the degree you oppose this course of action.
Or alternatively, broadly speaking countries with some form of compulsory military service populaces tend to be more circumspect when it comes to matters of armed conflict, for obvious reasons.
This is especially pertinent in functioning liberal democracies, and some failures in sanctions have been in application of sanctions on closed, dictatorial regimes. Or being dubious sanctions to begin with. As per my example if the rest of the world had showed some balls and sanctioned the US and the U.K. and other involved nations,
People also aren’t powerless, apathetic certainly. It’s hard to be apathetic it your bank account’s value is wiped out.
Ukrainians I presume weren’t particularly happy to wake up to their cities being shelled, nor will everyone down to the poorest in society be happy that after the economic knock of COVID there’s going to be further price increases to survive in the wake of this invasion.
Those things sound rather more unfair to me than some people not playing in a video game tournament.
The best scenario is this ends ASAP and our Ukrainian and Russian brothers and sisters can get back to living their best lives. If sanctions can expedite that I’m all for them.
I have no particular desire to see Russian players banned incidentally, I actually haven’t said that you just assumed that. But if they’re in Russia and down the line travel or visa restrictions get enacted, then there’s little eSports orgs can do.
For Western based Russians, who aren’t competing in sports representing Russia, especially those vocally against the war I don’t really see a rationale to ban them. The whole point of sanctions is to amplify internal Russian pressure so the state changes course. If you’re not in Russia, or have already expressed condemnation, or both there’s little sense to me in extending the fist to you.
[QUOTE]On March 05 2022 08:08 WombaT wrote: [QUOTE]On March 05 2022 06:20 honorablemacroterran wrote: [QUOTE]On March 05 2022 06:05 WombaT wrote: [QUOTE]On March 05 2022 04:21 renaissanceMAN wrote: It should have happened to us too but, hey it didn’t. [/QUOTE]
Imagine being so out of touch with reality that you are making the argument that you think your own country should have been subject to sanctions just so you can continue to campaign to ban some powerless people from playing a relatively small video game without looking like a hypocrite, instead of realizing that what you're on about is absolutely insane.
"All of my money is worthless and I can't even get it out of the bank but at least we're getting what we deserve!" - said no one ever
This thread is literally nothing but virtue signaling. The fact that even most of the people in favor of banning the players know that it won't actually accomplish anything, but they still want to do it, just convinces me of something Artosis said a few months ago: TL is stupider than youtube comments.[/QUOTE] + Show Spoiler +
Artosis is generally sensible when not streaming Brood War but that’s a pretty shocking take haha.
Yes. In a nutshell. I’m advocating for the absolute opposite of virtue signalling anyway. I’m not sitting around changing my Facebook picture to have a Ukrainian flag, I’m advocating for sanctions as a method of applying real consequences, in this specific instance and also as a general approach that should also include my own nation in that.
I don’t see my particular view of reality as being any more naive than trying to compartmentalise things as being completely unrelated to each other and thus beyond the scope of fair consequence. End of the day the Russian state is invading Ukraine presently. Plenty of Russians oppose this but plenty do not.
War is the most costly endeavour humanity can undergo. A cost that is not felt by most of us. I can say, and did say I was opposed to the Iraq war and that’s about it, nothing to do with me.
When it does become your business, via whatever measure of broader sanction, well it tends to focus oneself on quite to the degree you oppose this course of action.
Or alternatively, broadly speaking countries with some form of compulsory military service populaces tend to be more circumspect when it comes to matters of armed conflict, for obvious reasons.
This is especially pertinent in functioning liberal democracies, and some failures in sanctions have been in application of sanctions on closed, dictatorial regimes. Or being dubious sanctions to begin with. As per my example if the rest of the world had showed some balls and sanctioned the US and the U.K. and other involved nations,
People also aren’t powerless, apathetic certainly. It’s hard to be apathetic it your bank account’s value is wiped out.
Ukrainians I presume weren’t particularly happy to wake up to their cities being shelled, nor will everyone down to the poorest in society be happy that after the economic knock of COVID there’s going to be further price increases to survive in the wake of this invasion.
Those things sound rather more unfair to me than some people not playing in a video game tournament.
The best scenario is this ends ASAP and our Ukrainian and Russian brothers and sisters can get back to living their best lives. If sanctions can expedite that I’m all for them.
I have no particular desire to see Russian players banned incidentally, I actually haven’t said that you just assumed that. But if they’re in Russia and down the line travel or visa restrictions get enacted, then there’s little eSports orgs can do.
For Western based Russians, who aren’t competing in sports representing Russia, especially those vocally against the war I don’t really see a rationale to ban them. The whole point of sanctions is to amplify internal Russian pressure so the state changes course. If you’re not in Russia, or have already expressed condemnation, or both there’s little sense to me in extending the fist to you.
[/QUOTE]
I have to say that's a pretty good presentation of the arguments
On March 05 2022 06:02 aringadingding wrote: I am surprised that people doesnt understand that other people are upset that russia is invading an innocent country. And I am also surprised about the weird argument "there are other horrible things in the world, so lets not do anything now".... with that logic, noone will never make any action to any country ever.
And I am surprised you didn't read the argument that dismantles your surprise, namely about PUNISHING THEM ALL FFS.
Edit> Also, if you don't know how to edit others posts, maybe, just a suggestion, maybe stop doing it Then the post ends longer than without your "editing"
@Nakajin, Why thank you man! I look forward to the next post that sidesteps what me and others are saying and puts forth devastating ripostes to complete straw man arguments.
On March 05 2022 09:35 WombaT wrote: @Nakajin, Why thank you man! I look forward to the next post that sidesteps what me and others are saying and puts forth devastating ripostes to complete straw man arguments.
It's seems pretty obvious to me that the only people trying to signal how virtuous they are are the ones attacking others for their thoughts, and using language like hypocrite, xenophobia, bigotry and virtue signalling. The people trying to shut down discussion as though they have it all figured out are the ones we can ignore - they're just ideologues without much understanding of how complex issues like this really are.
On March 05 2022 09:35 WombaT wrote: @Nakajin, Why thank you man! I look forward to the next post that sidesteps what me and others are saying and puts forth devastating ripostes to complete straw man arguments.
It's seems pretty obvious to me that the only people trying to signal how virtuous they are are the ones attacking others for their thoughts, and using language like hypocrite, xenophobia, bigotry and virtue signalling. The people trying to shut down discussion as though they have it all figured out are the ones we can ignore - they're just ideologues without much understanding of how complex issues like this really are.
Virtue signalling seems to have morphed from a genuinely useful descriptive term for a certain phenomenon to ‘having an opinion on an issue’, which is obviously silly.
Similarly charges of hypocrisy only really work if one is being genuinely hypocritical.
The wider, non military deployed constituents of the West who went in, and stayed in Iraq faced no hardship whatsoever from that scenario. I think they should have.
Which apparently makes me a hypocrite for thinking Russians should face the consequences of the actions of their state, somehow
It's virtue signaling because even most people in favor of banning them know it's not going to accomplish anything, but they don't care. It's not actually about accomplishing anything. It's about being seen as "doing your part," even if it's unfair to the people actually affected by the decision and doesn't move the needle on ending the war. This is pretty much the essence of virtue signalling.
It seems to me like you are trying not to seem like a hypocrite by claiming that you would have been fine with your own people being subject to sanctions, which is convenient because it never happened and is a very remote possibility if not an impossibility. It's impossible to believe that you would actually want to live under the sanctions already imposed on Russia, let alone also being banned from playing Starcraft given how often you post on these forums. I normally try to avoid attributing motives to people but when I read what you wrote I was astounded.
On March 05 2022 11:07 honorablemacroterran wrote: It's virtue signaling because even most people in favor of banning them knows it's not going to accomplish anything, but they don't care. It's not actually about accomplishing anything. It's about being seen as "doing your part," even if it's unfair to the people actually affected by the decision and doesn't move the needle on ending the war. This is pretty much the essence of virtue signalling.
It seems to me like you are trying not to seem like a hypocrite by claiming that you would have been fine with your own people being subject to sanctions, which is convenient because it never happened and is a very remote possibility if not an impossibility. It's impossible to believe that you would actually want to live under the sanctions already imposed on Russia, let alone also being banned from playing Starcraft given how often you post on these forums. I normally try to avoid attributing motives to people but when I read what you wrote I was astounded.
More people died in Iraq than the population of my home city, the capital over here.
I wouldn’t want to live under the sanctions being imposed, that is entirely, entirely the point of them.
Seems to me that some of people here doesn't understand the nature of sanctions on Russia, saying stupid things like "you cannot punish whole nation". The problem is, that the world has no other means to pressure russian government orher than sanctions. We cannot attack with military or take off Putin out of the board, because that would mean world war. The idea is to make life so hard for the nation of Russia, that they would take care of Putin themselves. That's why, pressing the whole Russian nation is the only way. Ofc people that are not supporting Putin in Russia will suffer too. But it's nothing, compared to suffering of people in Ukraine. You all seem to not understand what these people are going through.
I'm in Poland, and I'm helping those refuges as I can. I would ban everyone from Russia in everything, if that could end this madness. It's symbolic thing. And if those russian players are against this war, they would understand it too.
On March 05 2022 17:24 ZeroByte13 wrote: You don't know how sanctions can be applied to specific organizations only? Really? Because this is how sanctions are applied in 95% of cases.
The sanctions obviously have a flow on effect which hurt all of the innocent people in Russia too, and the people who benefit from dealing with Russia. The Russian economy is going to crash from all of this even though the sanctions aren't against the general population they suffer anyway even though they aren't being targeted. There's really no way out of this without innocent people being impacted negatively.
What you have to understand: The ban of any Russian people in any Sport or any event or even the restrictions against the Oligarchs are NOT against Russia. All of this is against Putin, which is a very dangerous man, who will not accept to not get what he sees as his right to get. Imo it is the right way to attack him, much better instead of fighting russia for real and with a lot of death civilist in case of attacking russia.
On March 05 2022 20:33 dbRic1203 wrote: Activision/ Blizzard is no longer selling games in russia. Not sure how that works with free to Play games though
On March 05 2022 06:02 aringadingding wrote: I am surprised that people doesnt understand that other people are upset that russia is invading an innocent country. And I am also surprised about the weird argument "there are other horrible things in the world, so lets not do anything now".... with that logic, noone will never make any action to any country ever.
I'm not really surprised. These enablers have always been there, and they always have the argument that we need to go back in time and do things differently, as though the past decides all of the future (kind of like how Pootin thinks). I'm not against sanctioning Saudi Arabia or Israel though, I think war crimes are war crimes.
I'm removing my posts from here. Because now there's a law which says I can go to jail for up to 15 years, if I say something negative about this situation on foreign forums, so... bye-bye. (this is not a joke)
On March 05 2022 22:36 ZeroByte13 wrote: I'm removing my posts from here. Because now there's a law which says I can go to jail for up to 15 years, if I say something negative about this situation on foreign forums, so... bye-bye.
On March 05 2022 22:36 ZeroByte13 wrote: I'm removing my posts from here. Because now there's a law which says I can go to jail for up to 15 years, if I say something negative about this situation on foreign forums, so... bye-bye.
:/ GL dude...
Their post that had anything at all about Russia are gone, even if they weren't explicitly negative. Better safe than jailed, as the saying goes.
The information war is going strong. Both Soviet and Russia have been consistently good at that part.
On March 05 2022 22:36 ZeroByte13 wrote: I'm removing my posts from here. Because now there's a law which says I can go to jail for up to 15 years, if I say something negative about this situation on foreign forums, so... bye-bye. (this is not a joke)
I would be interesting to stay in jail if the russian competition in SC2 was more professionnal ;D
On March 03 2022 14:13 luxon wrote: In light of the invasion of Ukraine, IOC (Olympics), FIFA (world cup), UEFA, figure skating, volleyball, badminton, cycling, tennis, F1 have banned Russian teams, athletes, or sponsors. What is ESL/SC2's (or e-sports more broadly) responsibility in the global scene?
If the answer in this case is 'nothing', what happens when China invades Taiwan? We all know Blizzard is a stooge for the CCP, but what about for other games by other companies? Do we just let the progamers compete as if players' lives aren't in danger?
I understand the economic impact of SC2/esports cannot compare to say football, but since e-sports are very international in nature, I feel like the conversation is justified. Thoughts?
The most significant thing of esports is less natioal factors. WESG and Nation War has national representives,except these two SC2 players just represents themselve. So I support ESL do nothing about it. CHINA and TW, I think you should vote a govement that dare to admit TW is a real country first. Before this its not country, no invation, officially. As Chinese I can live without games, thats OK. all these ban RUSSIAN things showed social medias make people more extrem,west is a free speech world,but on social media people can not be neutral or even can not have their idea reserved. CHina is well known as censorship totalism,but here we know if you have a tw collegue,or bussiness partner,you do not talk about these things, we give each other rights to reserve political ideas,and make works going on well.
On March 03 2022 14:13 luxon wrote: In light of the invasion of Ukraine, IOC (Olympics), FIFA (world cup), UEFA, figure skating, volleyball, badminton, cycling, tennis, F1 have banned Russian teams, athletes, or sponsors. What is ESL/SC2's (or e-sports more broadly) responsibility in the global scene?
If the answer in this case is 'nothing', what happens when China invades Taiwan? We all know Blizzard is a stooge for the CCP, but what about for other games by other companies? Do we just let the progamers compete as if players' lives aren't in danger?
I understand the economic impact of SC2/esports cannot compare to say football, but since e-sports are very international in nature, I feel like the conversation is justified. Thoughts?
What your point on Russia and Ukraine?CN and tw? will U call for the rights of LGBT/Ethnic minoritys ? What you can do for climat change/refuges? … TIMBA or ZIMBA or PIMBA? if a player answered these all right,he can play.
On March 05 2022 22:36 ZeroByte13 wrote: I'm removing my posts from here. Because now there's a law which says I can go to jail for up to 15 years, if I say something negative about this situation on foreign forums, so... bye-bye. (this is not a joke)
I love how everyone is now a geopolitical expert and can discern exactly who the bad guy is in this fight. Everyone suddenly knows the Ukrainians are incredible because of the ghost of Ukraine, whose footage came straight from DCS.
Nobody could possibly be misled by western media and social media, both of whom show you exactly what they want you to see.
I don't agree with this invasion, but there has been an extended conflict in eastern Ukraine for years and years and most people are wholly unaware of the details of this conflict.
Banning people due to nationality? No. The fact that people are even entertaining the idea says a lot about people these days. Cancel culture is mainstream.
On March 06 2022 02:40 J. Corsair wrote: I love how everyone is now a geopolitical expert and can discern exactly who the bad guy is in this fight. Everyone suddenly knows the Ukrainians are incredible because of the ghost of Ukraine, whose footage came straight from DCS.
Nobody could possibly be misled by western media and social media, both of whom show you exactly what they want you to see.
I don't agree with this invasion, but there has been an extended conflict in eastern Ukraine for years and years and most people are wholly unaware of the details of this conflict.
Banning people due to nationality? No. The fact that people are even entertaining the idea says a lot about people these days. Cancel culture is mainstream.
Do you have to be an expert in the geopolitics here?
A healthy skepticism on media reportage and general mainstream narrative is important to have.
On the other hand there seems a trend to discard mainstream narratives seemingly on account of their mainstream nature, and not applying a genuinely skeptical lens to the alternative narratives that take their place.
It’s some weird hipster mentality, oh no I don’t trust the BBC, RT is where it’s at. I don’t trust the cast vast majority of medical wisdom, it’s this bloke’s blog is where it’s at.
There are particulars that many, myself included are ignorant of in terms of the East of Ukraine. I don’t, particularly care. Are they sufficient justification for a wholesale invasion of Ukraine and all that entails?
Whatever complexities in that particular scenario shift widely when being discussed within the parameters of peacetime or war.
The response of Ukrainians themselves is in and of itself informative. I may not be cognisant of all the cultural and political forces within that region, the people who live there by default are, and they don’t seem particularly happy about this state of affairs, to put it lightly.
The fact we're even having this discussion is a good indicator how shitty our world has become. 2/3 of TL advocating the punishment of common Russian citizens, even while acknowledging that these people are not responsible for the war in any way, because they think it would compel said Russian citizens to overthrow Putin or something. Do you even realize how fucking ridiculous this is on how many levels?
No. Most (all?) Russian olympic athletes are integrated into the military and the football clubs belong to oligarchs, so there's a reason there. Banning everyone is not ok, we need to keep talking.
On March 06 2022 21:23 AssyrianKing wrote: This is actually just borderline Russophobic. The USA put the Middle East through living hell and nobody bats an eye
Does nobody bat an eye?
The momentum on this is such that Russia is getting the sanction hammer.
I’m as impressed by the actions of states and indeed corporations and individuals on this issue as much as I’m disappointed in the lack of meaningful blowback for an Iraq, or for the actions of Saudi Arabia, or Israel, or whoever else.
In the best of worlds this form of pressure is consistently applied and there is less senseless bloodshed and oppression the world over. We are sadly not in the best of worlds, but not in the worst either whereupon no force or pressure is ever exerted to minimise conflict, because it would be inconsistent.
Whatever does impact everyday Russian people is hopefully as short term as possible, and easily reversible come the cessation of hostilities.
One thing that won’t be easily reversible is the freezing or seizing of assets from oligarchs, assets that let’s be real in many cases weren’t exactly obtained ethically, and at times at the expense of the average Russian.
On March 06 2022 21:23 AssyrianKing wrote: This is actually just borderline Russophobic. The USA put the Middle East through living hell and nobody bats an eye
Roughly 1 million people attended what is still the largest protest in UK history after we announced we were joining the war.
On March 06 2022 21:23 AssyrianKing wrote: This is actually just borderline Russophobic. The USA put the Middle East through living hell and nobody bats an eye
Yea, but the worst problem is clearly the latter, I don't think "we should be more acceptable of war of invasion and various "war crime" to be fair" is a very good solution. Maybe sanction or isolation of Russia isn't the solution to avoid more death, and it's of course not devoid of less than charitable geopolitical thinking, but doing nothing when a country try to annex another isn't a an appealing solution.
I don't necessarely think that we never batted an eye at our own war crime either, I for one remember monster protest against the war in Iraq that worked for most of the US ally. Clearly it wasn't enough, but we'll just have to try harder next time.
On another note, I am kind of affraid the West is getting too involved in sanction against Russia and arming Ukraine, at some point sooner than latter there's gonna have to be a negociated response to this thing if we want to avoid a total colapse of the country. I feel like some of Nato members would be happy to see Russia stuck in an endless war on its border. (By the way, this is very much armchair "political expert" talk, by my part)
On March 03 2022 14:13 luxon wrote: In light of the invasion of Ukraine, IOC (Olympics), FIFA (world cup), UEFA, figure skating, volleyball, badminton, cycling, tennis, F1 have banned Russian teams, athletes, or sponsors. What is ESL/SC2's (or e-sports more broadly) responsibility in the global scene?
If the answer in this case is 'nothing', what happens when China invades Taiwan? We all know Blizzard is a stooge for the CCP, but what about for other games by other companies? Do we just let the progamers compete as if players' lives aren't in danger?
I understand the economic impact of SC2/esports cannot compare to say football, but since e-sports are very international in nature, I feel like the conversation is justified. Thoughts?
The most significant thing of esports is less natioal factors. WESG and Nation War has national representives,except these two SC2 players just represents themselve. So I support ESL do nothing about it. CHINA and TW, I think you should vote a govement that dare to admit TW is a real country first. Before this its not country, no invation, officially. As Chinese I can live without games, thats OK. all these ban RUSSIAN things showed social medias make people more extrem,west is a free speech world,but on social media people can not be neutral or even can not have their idea reserved. CHina is well known as censorship totalism,but here we know if you have a tw collegue,or bussiness partner,you do not talk about these things, we give each other rights to reserve political ideas,and make works going on well.
Regarding this statement from the post: "CHINA and TW, I think you should vote a govement that dare to admit TW is a real country first. Before this its not country, no invation, officially. As Chinese I can live without games, thats OK."
I want to point out that: Taiwan is a country in every way, EXCEPT THAT The Chinese goverment (PRC) forces/ bullies/ threatens every other country to say no. Explaning below. (and anyone can just easily Google/ wiki/ whatever do your research to see the current status of China and Taiwan, and the 20th history regarding these two.)
(A) Taiwan is a country, and its official name is ROC: It has its own goverment, army, territory (which has NEVER been touched/ goverened/ occupied by the goverment or army of the current Chinese goverment, PRC). It has its own currency, its own law. It does not pay tax to China. And, ANY Chinese citizen who wishes to visit Taiwan needs to go through the same Visa application process just as ANY other countries in the world.
(B) The Chinese goverment (PRC) forces/bullies/threatens every other country to say no: Currently, almost NO countries in the world would SAY that Taiwan is an independent country. Because bascially Chinese goverment (PRC) would just go like this: "We will not trade with you if you don't agree that Taiwan is a part of China." And since almost every country wants a share of the Chinese market (looking at Disney and Blizzard), they wouldn't argue. For example, if you're some Europeon country, why would you antagonize Chinese goverment and lose the opportunity to trade with China, JUST to support a small island country Taiwan?
So, although there has been ZERO soldier of PRC's army that ever set foot on Taiwan (since the KMT party retreated to Taiwan and continued the ROC goverment in 1949), and PRC has never had ANY countrol over ANY part of Taiwan (ROC)'s current territory, but PRC just keeps claiming that "Taiwan is a part of us and is not an independent country", and "look look, almost all other countries agree (or do not disagree) with me.
Again, anyone can just do some quick research (10mins would be enough) on the current status, and the 20th to 21th century history regarding China and Taiwan, and they'll see what's going on. It's not that complicated.
And yes, I know this thread was about Russia / Ukraine situation, and about if esport / Starcraft has to be involved with politics. But I just need to correct the outright statement.
YES! Russians were always toxic, bad mannered. People getting bombed meanwhile russian players (I checked on other game forums) worry that they won't able to buy the game due to new restrictions and on top of that ignore what's going on alltogether (many people wrote about bombins on forums but they don't care at all).
On March 06 2022 22:47 samloki wrote: I don't think it should There is no nationality in sports. We talk about the Olympic spirit every day. Do you think competition is the Olympic spirit?
There is no nationality in Sport? Have you ever heared about the term NATIONAL TEAM before? Pretty much every Nation in existance is trying to boost its international Image by doing exceptional in some Sport. I just saw a Report about a high bar competition, where a Ukrainian got 1st and a russian got 3rd Who got the "Z" that is marke on russian tanks in his Jersey. Where is that not political? E.: source: https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1120122/kovtun-gymnastics-world-cup-in-doha
First - Its very strange to motivate that no sanctions should be made and refer to how situations has been in other wars and countries. Now is now and here is here. Secondly - I think the russians prefer sanction and to have a tough instead of having everything escalating to a a full war with the "rest of the world", i think the most of the world prefers that. Third - Even though i feel sorry for the russians that do not want this war and will suffer from the sanction i feel MUCH more for the ones who dies and and is forced to feel from their homes in Ukraine.
The sanction are the best that can be done in this horrible situation Russia has created. To not do anything would ofc be insane.
I liked reading this thread. Agree with those who state that since there's no *national* league in Russia (or anywhere), it's pretty ridiculous to ban individuals who have no relationship to their country's policies and whose ban will have literally 0% chance to influence any Russian national politics. I mean some of them are actively speaking against the war (like Skillous) - which if anything is risking his future safety to take the right side.
And context is important - there's like 2-3 major Russian players who by definition are probably just indoor gamers. Not like a national basketball league who have tens of thousands of viewers or hundreds of individuals involved.
And if you are okay banning Russians I hope you are also, right at this moment, also okay with banning Chinese due to the genocide China is doing to the Uighur.
Definitely ! Ban everything Russian in all the spheres of all industries. The more pressure and the more devastating sanctions the sooner those pigs cease to be even a tiny bit relevant in this world. Russia needs to be destroyed and re-built as a new country with new political regime.
I think we should all take a beat on sanctioning Russia before we end up in a nuclear war. This liberal crusade is just escalating the situation and making it more dangerous. I don't think advocates for escalation realize that Putin isn't going to just let himself be overthrown and he has the largest nuclear arsenal in the world. The more effective sanctions are, the more dangerous this situation actually becomes.
On March 07 2022 04:39 honorablemacroterran wrote: I think we should all take a beat on sanctioning Russia before we end up in a nuclear war. This liberal crusade is just escalating the situation and making it more dangerous. I don't think advocates for escalation realize that Putin isn't going to just let himself be overthrown and he has the largest nuclear arsenal in the world. The more effective sanctions are, the more dangerous this situation actually becomes.
Liberal crusade? Fascinating, please tell me more. Should we bow down to our new nuclear overlord?
On March 07 2022 04:39 honorablemacroterran wrote: I think we should all take a beat on sanctioning Russia before we end up in a nuclear war. This liberal crusade is just escalating the situation and making it more dangerous. I don't think advocates for escalation realize that Putin isn't going to just let himself be overthrown and he has the largest nuclear arsenal in the world. The more effective sanctions are, the more dangerous this situation actually becomes.
Liberal crusade? Fascinating, please tell me more. Should we bow down to our new nuclear overlord?
When Russia says they feel they are existentially threatened and the EU and Washington establishments just repeatedly ignore it and start talking about openly overthrowing their government, I start getting worried that they will feel threatened enough to use the largest nuclear arsenal on the planet.
On March 07 2022 04:39 honorablemacroterran wrote: I think we should all take a beat on sanctioning Russia before we end up in a nuclear war. This liberal crusade is just escalating the situation and making it more dangerous. I don't think advocates for escalation realize that Putin isn't going to just let himself be overthrown and he has the largest nuclear arsenal in the world. The more effective sanctions are, the more dangerous this situation actually becomes.
Liberal crusade? Fascinating, please tell me more. Should we bow down to our new nuclear overlord?
When Russia says they feel they are existentially threatened and the EU and Washington establishments just repeatedly ignore it and start talking about openly overthrowing their government, I start getting worried that they will feel threatened enough to use the largest nuclear arsenal on the planet.
So let them, better to have this over with than bow down to aggressive nacists and freedom takers. I hope the west does everything humanly possible not only to humiliate Russia (does not take much, their actions and military humiliate themselves more and more every day) but to really take their whole nation down to the ground economically, and if needed militarily as well. Hopefully someone from within takes down Putler before the conflict escalates to all-out war, but if not its still a better option than to live next to crazy blood thirsty dictators with shaky fingers on a nuclear trigger and live in fear and despair of what kind of craziness happens next.
On March 07 2022 04:39 honorablemacroterran wrote: I think we should all take a beat on sanctioning Russia before we end up in a nuclear war. This liberal crusade is just escalating the situation and making it more dangerous. I don't think advocates for escalation realize that Putin isn't going to just let himself be overthrown and he has the largest nuclear arsenal in the world. The more effective sanctions are, the more dangerous this situation actually becomes.
Liberal crusade? Fascinating, please tell me more. Should we bow down to our new nuclear overlord?
When Russia says they feel they are existentially threatened and the EU and Washington establishments just repeatedly ignore it and start talking about openly overthrowing their government, I start getting worried that they will feel threatened enough to use the largest nuclear arsenal on the planet.
How were they existentially threatened before this? They aren't even now and if, only because of Putins choosing. Business relationships were increasing, we tried and even became semi-dependent. Where did the money go? Certain people bagged it. Just get the fuck out of Ukraine, a country which voted 92% in favor of independence, with majorities even in Crimea and the Donbass.
Discriminating players because of there origin is just xenophobic. We can make statements during events without banning individuals, that had was born in a certian place on earth.
(bannig russian starcraft players dont help the ukrainian people or has an impact on the war)
I get the idea behind pressuring a country by indirect means like this, and I can see the argument for olympic sports or soccer etc. where the athletes very explicitly represent their country. But SC2? Nah, I just don't see any reason honestly. Yeah sure if you wanted to enforce the principle, pinpointing the small pieces of the puzzle isn't an argument.
But I just don't see how banning Rattata and SKillous from competing in ESL Open Cups changes anything.
On March 07 2022 04:39 honorablemacroterran wrote: I think we should all take a beat on sanctioning Russia before we end up in a nuclear war. This liberal crusade is just escalating the situation and making it more dangerous. I don't think advocates for escalation realize that Putin isn't going to just let himself be overthrown and he has the largest nuclear arsenal in the world. The more effective sanctions are, the more dangerous this situation actually becomes.
Liberal crusade? Fascinating, please tell me more. Should we bow down to our new nuclear overlord?
When Russia says they feel they are existentially threatened and the EU and Washington establishments just repeatedly ignore it and start talking about openly overthrowing their government, I start getting worried that they will feel threatened enough to use the largest nuclear arsenal on the planet.
The West has largely let Russia do what it’s wanted without serious repercussion for quite some time now.
There’s only so far you one push the ‘Russia feels they’re existentially threatened’ narrative while Russia is sabre rattling and encroaching elsewhere.
If you’re threatened by what’s on the peripheries of your territory, it absolutely makes sense to both expand in that direction, and piss off the rather large pan-National military/economic bloc in that direction.
Russia and Putin had it pretty good in that regard prior to Ukraine with brass and tack relations with the wider West. Bit of rhetoric here and there. It’s far from a pariah state. Wee natural gas infrastructure deal in the offering, hosted the World Cup, hosted the Winter Olympics. Business as usual for oligarch ex-pats
I do hope that response to this clear escalation isn’t going into nuke territory, obviously.
If being opposed for subsuming Ukraine is sufficient provocation to do nukes, and folks back off. Well what next? Surely whatever future aspirations Putin has also have to be given in to.
On March 06 2022 21:23 AssyrianKing wrote: This is actually just borderline Russophobic. The USA put the Middle East through living hell and nobody bats an eye
Does nobody bat an eye?
The momentum on this is such that Russia is getting the sanction hammer.
I’m as impressed by the actions of states and indeed corporations and individuals on this issue as much as I’m disappointed in the lack of meaningful blowback for an Iraq, or for the actions of Saudi Arabia, or Israel, or whoever else.
In the best of worlds this form of pressure is consistently applied and there is less senseless bloodshed and oppression the world over. We are sadly not in the best of worlds, but not in the worst either whereupon no force or pressure is ever exerted to minimise conflict, because it would be inconsistent.
Whatever does impact everyday Russian people is hopefully as short term as possible, and easily reversible come the cessation of hostilities.
One thing that won’t be easily reversible is the freezing or seizing of assets from oligarchs, assets that let’s be real in many cases weren’t exactly obtained ethically, and at times at the expense of the average Russian.
That's a lot of words to say "I openly acknowledge that the west had done crimes on the same level as the Russian government with no reprecussions. But let's not dwell on the past; we're still going to punish the Russians for the exact same crap the west got away with".
Even disregarding the (very questionable) moral implications, it's pretty obvious that statements like that are much more likely to push ordinary Russians to a further anti-west stance than it is to help ending the conflict. You're not solving the problem, you're escalating it.
On March 07 2022 04:39 honorablemacroterran wrote: I think we should all take a beat on sanctioning Russia before we end up in a nuclear war. This liberal crusade is just escalating the situation and making it more dangerous. I don't think advocates for escalation realize that Putin isn't going to just let himself be overthrown and he has the largest nuclear arsenal in the world. The more effective sanctions are, the more dangerous this situation actually becomes.
Liberal crusade? Fascinating, please tell me more. Should we bow down to our new nuclear overlord?
When Russia says they feel they are existentially threatened and the EU and Washington establishments just repeatedly ignore it and start talking about openly overthrowing their government, I start getting worried that they will feel threatened enough to use the largest nuclear arsenal on the planet.
On March 03 2022 14:13 luxon wrote: In light of the invasion of Ukraine, IOC (Olympics), FIFA (world cup), UEFA, figure skating, volleyball, badminton, cycling, tennis, F1 have banned Russian teams, athletes, or sponsors. What is ESL/SC2's (or e-sports more broadly) responsibility in the global scene?
If the answer in this case is 'nothing', what happens when China invades Taiwan? We all know Blizzard is a stooge for the CCP, but what about for other games by other companies? Do we just let the progamers compete as if players' lives aren't in danger?
I understand the economic impact of SC2/esports cannot compare to say football, but since e-sports are very international in nature, I feel like the conversation is justified. Thoughts?
The most significant thing of esports is less natioal factors. WESG and Nation War has national representives,except these two SC2 players just represents themselve. So I support ESL do nothing about it. CHINA and TW, I think you should vote a govement that dare to admit TW is a real country first. Before this its not country, no invation, officially. As Chinese I can live without games, thats OK. all these ban RUSSIAN things showed social medias make people more extrem,west is a free speech world,but on social media people can not be neutral or even can not have their idea reserved. CHina is well known as censorship totalism,but here we know if you have a tw collegue,or bussiness partner,you do not talk about these things, we give each other rights to reserve political ideas,and make works going on well.
Regarding this statement from the post: "CHINA and TW, I think you should vote a govement that dare to admit TW is a real country first. Before this its not country, no invation, officially. As Chinese I can live without games, thats OK."
I want to point out that: Taiwan is a country in every way, EXCEPT THAT The Chinese goverment (PRC) forces/ bullies/ threatens every other country to say no. Explaning below. (and anyone can just easily Google/ wiki/ whatever do your research to see the current status of China and Taiwan, and the 20th history regarding these two.)
(A) Taiwan is a country, and its official name is ROC: It has its own goverment, army, territory (which has NEVER been touched/ goverened/ occupied by the goverment or army of the current Chinese goverment, PRC). It has its own currency, its own law. It does not pay tax to China. And, ANY Chinese citizen who wishes to visit Taiwan needs to go through the same Visa application process just as ANY other countries in the world.
(B) The Chinese goverment (PRC) forces/bullies/threatens every other country to say no: Currently, almost NO countries in the world would SAY that Taiwan is an independent country. Because bascially Chinese goverment (PRC) would just go like this: "We will not trade with you if you don't agree that Taiwan is a part of China." And since almost every country wants a share of the Chinese market (looking at Disney and Blizzard), they wouldn't argue. For example, if you're some Europeon country, why would you antagonize Chinese goverment and lose the opportunity to trade with China, JUST to support a small island country Taiwan?
So, although there has been ZERO soldier of PRC's army that ever set foot on Taiwan (since the KMT party retreated to Taiwan and continued the ROC goverment in 1949), and PRC has never had ANY countrol over ANY part of Taiwan (ROC)'s current territory, but PRC just keeps claiming that "Taiwan is a part of us and is not an independent country", and "look look, almost all other countries agree (or do not disagree) with me.
Again, anyone can just do some quick research (10mins would be enough) on the current status, and the 20th to 21th century history regarding China and Taiwan, and they'll see what's going on. It's not that complicated.
And yes, I know this thread was about Russia / Ukraine situation, and about if esport / Starcraft has to be involved with politics. But I just need to correct the outright statement.
History .huh?So you mean ROC and PRC are two gov in geology CHINA(INCLUDING TW ISLAND) ,that make sense in some way. Remember there is no peace treaty or ceasefire agreement between them,so there is a CHINA civil war start from1945 and last till now,right? So maybe someday it will go to end. Other countries did not interfere in 1940s because they considered their own costs and bennifits. See what they will do next time. Further more you can think in your way. When I was 8 I thought i was the descendant of dinosaurs, I should inherit the whole planet from dinosaurs.
On March 07 2022 04:51 honorablemacroterran wrote:
On March 07 2022 04:45 r00ty wrote:
On March 07 2022 04:39 honorablemacroterran wrote: I think we should all take a beat on sanctioning Russia before we end up in a nuclear war. This liberal crusade is just escalating the situation and making it more dangerous. I don't think advocates for escalation realize that Putin isn't going to just let himself be overthrown and he has the largest nuclear arsenal in the world. The more effective sanctions are, the more dangerous this situation actually becomes.
Liberal crusade? Fascinating, please tell me more. Should we bow down to our new nuclear overlord?
When Russia says they feel they are existentially threatened and the EU and Washington establishments just repeatedly ignore it and start talking about openly overthrowing their government, I start getting worried that they will feel threatened enough to use the largest nuclear arsenal on the planet.
Existentially threatened..... by Ukraine??
I don't know how long you have been paying attention but over the past decade, Ukraine went from being a post-soviet buffer state that wasn't really an international flashpoint, to having a coup supported by the US and EU, to potentially joining NATO and becoming a base for NATO right on Russia' doorstep.
Personally, I think the anti-Russia party in the US and EU is responsible for precipitating all of this and wrecking Ukraine as well as putting us at risk of nuclear war for no reason. This isn't just my opinion, though, eminent foreign policy experts in the US like Mearsheimer who have been following this issue agree that this is a reaction to the West's policy in Ukraine and that backing Putin into a corner isn't a winning move because Russia still has enough nuclear warheads to destroy the entire world.
I think all the trouble in this case really started in April, 2008, at the nato Summit in Bucharest, where afterward nato issued a statement that said Ukraine and Georgia would become part of nato. The Russians made it unequivocally clear at the time that they viewed this as an existential threat, and they drew a line in the sand. Nevertheless, what has happened with the passage of time is that we have moved forward to include Ukraine in the West to make Ukraine a Western bulwark on Russia’s border. Of course, this includes more than just nato expansion. nato expansion is the heart of the strategy, but it includes E.U. expansion as well, and it includes turning Ukraine into a pro-American liberal democracy, and, from a Russian perspective, this is an existential threat.
On March 07 2022 04:51 honorablemacroterran wrote:
On March 07 2022 04:45 r00ty wrote:
On March 07 2022 04:39 honorablemacroterran wrote: I think we should all take a beat on sanctioning Russia before we end up in a nuclear war. This liberal crusade is just escalating the situation and making it more dangerous. I don't think advocates for escalation realize that Putin isn't going to just let himself be overthrown and he has the largest nuclear arsenal in the world. The more effective sanctions are, the more dangerous this situation actually becomes.
Liberal crusade? Fascinating, please tell me more. Should we bow down to our new nuclear overlord?
When Russia says they feel they are existentially threatened and the EU and Washington establishments just repeatedly ignore it and start talking about openly overthrowing their government, I start getting worried that they will feel threatened enough to use the largest nuclear arsenal on the planet.
Existentially threatened..... by Ukraine??
I don't know how long you have been paying attention but over the past decade, Ukraine went from being a post-soviet buffer state that wasn't really an international flashpoint, to having a coup supported by the US and EU, to potentially joining NATO and becoming a base for NATO right on Russia' doorstep.
Personally, I think the anti-Russia party in the US and EU is responsible for precipitating all of this and wrecking Ukraine as well as putting us at risk of nuclear war for no reason.
Err, the coup that totally wasn't because of the unpopular President that was Russian stooge right?
And since when is joining NATO a justification for war? They're a sovereign country. Who they join an alliance with is their prerogative. Ukraine was never an existential threat to Russia.
And nah,I think the only one responsible is the guy who wants to invade Ukraine out an imperialist desire. Especially when this guy has been gesturing he's totally cool with imperialism. And if your neighbor invades and annexes you before....why wouldnt you want to join NATO? This whole NATO situation seems to be the fault of the hostile power.
Joining NATO is not an international crime. And even if it was, Putin pushed Ukraine into NATO's arms. And even that is super charitable because as of the date of invasion....THEY WERE NOT A MEMBER OF NATO.
On March 07 2022 13:30 honorablemacroterran wrote:
On March 07 2022 11:28 lestye wrote:
On March 07 2022 04:51 honorablemacroterran wrote:
On March 07 2022 04:45 r00ty wrote:
On March 07 2022 04:39 honorablemacroterran wrote: I think we should all take a beat on sanctioning Russia before we end up in a nuclear war. This liberal crusade is just escalating the situation and making it more dangerous. I don't think advocates for escalation realize that Putin isn't going to just let himself be overthrown and he has the largest nuclear arsenal in the world. The more effective sanctions are, the more dangerous this situation actually becomes.
Liberal crusade? Fascinating, please tell me more. Should we bow down to our new nuclear overlord?
When Russia says they feel they are existentially threatened and the EU and Washington establishments just repeatedly ignore it and start talking about openly overthrowing their government, I start getting worried that they will feel threatened enough to use the largest nuclear arsenal on the planet.
Existentially threatened..... by Ukraine??
I don't know how long you have been paying attention but over the past decade, Ukraine went from being a post-soviet buffer state that wasn't really an international flashpoint, to having a coup supported by the US and EU, to potentially joining NATO and becoming a base for NATO right on Russia' doorstep.
Personally, I think the anti-Russia party in the US and EU is responsible for precipitating all of this and wrecking Ukraine as well as putting us at risk of nuclear war for no reason.
Err, the coup that totally wasn't because of the unpopular President that was Russian stooge right?
And since when is joining NATO a justification for war? They're a sovereign country. Who they join an alliance with is their prerogative. Ukraine was never an existential threat to Russia.
And nah,I think the only one responsible is the guy who wants to invade Ukraine out an imperialist desire. Especially when this guy has been gesturing he's totally cool with imperialism. And if your neighbor invades and annexes you before....why wouldnt you want to join NATO? This whole NATO situation seems to be the fault of the hostile power.
That coup happened in 2014. That's also when Russia first attacked Ukraine. This is great power politics. Russia feels the need to do this because of the involvement of the US in Ukraine. Nuclear war cannot be won so there is no point in escalating tensions further.
On March 07 2022 13:30 honorablemacroterran wrote:
On March 07 2022 11:28 lestye wrote:
On March 07 2022 04:51 honorablemacroterran wrote:
On March 07 2022 04:45 r00ty wrote:
On March 07 2022 04:39 honorablemacroterran wrote: I think we should all take a beat on sanctioning Russia before we end up in a nuclear war. This liberal crusade is just escalating the situation and making it more dangerous. I don't think advocates for escalation realize that Putin isn't going to just let himself be overthrown and he has the largest nuclear arsenal in the world. The more effective sanctions are, the more dangerous this situation actually becomes.
Liberal crusade? Fascinating, please tell me more. Should we bow down to our new nuclear overlord?
When Russia says they feel they are existentially threatened and the EU and Washington establishments just repeatedly ignore it and start talking about openly overthrowing their government, I start getting worried that they will feel threatened enough to use the largest nuclear arsenal on the planet.
Existentially threatened..... by Ukraine??
I don't know how long you have been paying attention but over the past decade, Ukraine went from being a post-soviet buffer state that wasn't really an international flashpoint, to having a coup supported by the US and EU, to potentially joining NATO and becoming a base for NATO right on Russia' doorstep.
Personally, I think the anti-Russia party in the US and EU is responsible for precipitating all of this and wrecking Ukraine as well as putting us at risk of nuclear war for no reason.
Err, the coup that totally wasn't because of the unpopular President that was Russian stooge right?
And since when is joining NATO a justification for war? They're a sovereign country. Who they join an alliance with is their prerogative. Ukraine was never an existential threat to Russia.
And nah,I think the only one responsible is the guy who wants to invade Ukraine out an imperialist desire. Especially when this guy has been gesturing he's totally cool with imperialism. And if your neighbor invades and annexes you before....why wouldnt you want to join NATO? This whole NATO situation seems to be the fault of the hostile power.
That coup happened in 2014. That's also when Russia first attacked Ukraine. This is great power politics. Russia feels the need to do this because of the involvement of the US in Ukraine. Nuclear war cannot be won so there is no point in escalating tensions further.
Hey for all we know, the only reason that Russian didn't roll in there years ago is because of sanctions / the US!
On March 07 2022 13:30 honorablemacroterran wrote:
On March 07 2022 11:28 lestye wrote:
On March 07 2022 04:51 honorablemacroterran wrote:
On March 07 2022 04:45 r00ty wrote:
On March 07 2022 04:39 honorablemacroterran wrote: I think we should all take a beat on sanctioning Russia before we end up in a nuclear war. This liberal crusade is just escalating the situation and making it more dangerous. I don't think advocates for escalation realize that Putin isn't going to just let himself be overthrown and he has the largest nuclear arsenal in the world. The more effective sanctions are, the more dangerous this situation actually becomes.
Liberal crusade? Fascinating, please tell me more. Should we bow down to our new nuclear overlord?
When Russia says they feel they are existentially threatened and the EU and Washington establishments just repeatedly ignore it and start talking about openly overthrowing their government, I start getting worried that they will feel threatened enough to use the largest nuclear arsenal on the planet.
Existentially threatened..... by Ukraine??
I don't know how long you have been paying attention but over the past decade, Ukraine went from being a post-soviet buffer state that wasn't really an international flashpoint, to having a coup supported by the US and EU, to potentially joining NATO and becoming a base for NATO right on Russia' doorstep.
Personally, I think the anti-Russia party in the US and EU is responsible for precipitating all of this and wrecking Ukraine as well as putting us at risk of nuclear war for no reason.
Err, the coup that totally wasn't because of the unpopular President that was Russian stooge right?
And since when is joining NATO a justification for war? They're a sovereign country. Who they join an alliance with is their prerogative. Ukraine was never an existential threat to Russia.
And nah,I think the only one responsible is the guy who wants to invade Ukraine out an imperialist desire. Especially when this guy has been gesturing he's totally cool with imperialism. And if your neighbor invades and annexes you before....why wouldnt you want to join NATO? This whole NATO situation seems to be the fault of the hostile power.
That coup happened in 2014. That's also when Russia first attacked Ukraine. This is great power politics. Russia feels the need to do this because of the involvement of the US in Ukraine. Nuclear war cannot be won so there is no point in escalating tensions further.
OK… and by doing that that justifies NATO expanding other places. The takeaway from their actions are “If you’re not in NATO you’re gonna get rolled”.
REGARDLESS, considering joining an alliance is not an act of war. Russia is completely in the wrong.
Russia is not a great power. Economically they are not even in the top 10 and getting behind further each year. The Netherlands will pass them this year after the snactions hit, how is that possible? Their military is a joke, look at it, 95% is 70s and 80s tech. It's just the nukes, otherwise it's a failed state.
On March 07 2022 16:05 r00ty wrote: Russia is not a great power. Economically they are not even in the top 10 and getting behind further each year. The Netherlands will pass them this year after the snactions hit, how is that possible? Their military is a joke, look at it, 95% is 70s and 80s tech. It's just the nukes, otherwise it's a failed state.
All the more reason there's no reason to back them into a corner where they feel like their survival is threatened.
On March 07 2022 16:05 r00ty wrote: Russia is not a great power. Economically they are not even in the top 10 and getting behind further each year. The Netherlands will pass them this year after the snactions hit, how is that possible? Their military is a joke, look at it, 95% is 70s and 80s tech. It's just the nukes, otherwise it's a failed state.
All the more reason there's no reason to back them into a corner where they feel like their survival is threatened.
If invading Ukraine and slaughtering thousands of innocent civilians was supposed to solve the problem of their survival being threatened i would say its not working very well so far.
On March 07 2022 16:05 r00ty wrote: Russia is not a great power. Economically they are not even in the top 10 and getting behind further each year. The Netherlands will pass them this year after the snactions hit, how is that possible? Their military is a joke, look at it, 95% is 70s and 80s tech. It's just the nukes, otherwise it's a failed state.
All the more reason there's no reason to back them into a corner where they feel like their survival is threatened.
Survival? They have nukes ffs. They weren’t backed into a corner. They didn’t even try to exhaust all other possibilities. The only country whose survival is threatened is Ukraine.
On March 07 2022 16:29 honorablemacroterran wrote:
On March 07 2022 16:05 r00ty wrote: Russia is not a great power. Economically they are not even in the top 10 and getting behind further each year. The Netherlands will pass them this year after the snactions hit, how is that possible? Their military is a joke, look at it, 95% is 70s and 80s tech. It's just the nukes, otherwise it's a failed state.
All the more reason there's no reason to back them into a corner where they feel like their survival is threatened.
If invading Ukraine and slaughtering thousands of innocent civilians was supposed to solve the problem of their survival being threatened i would say its not working very well so far.
If Kim Jong Un attacked South Korea, we should just let him take it. Bye Taiwan, it was nice knowing you as a democracy. Maybe we just should give Putin the Baltics and Poland back, i mean he has nukes, nothing we can do. /s
Those who say "yes, what USA did in Iraq (and a few other places) was also reprehensible and they completely got away with it BUT we _need_ to start punishing countries with sanctions (that mostly affect common folks) at some point, right?"
Answer this honestly, please. Do you _really_ believe that next time USA will do something like they did with Iraq again, they will get punished in the same way, with heavy sanctions from entire world?
Because you don't actually believe this, right? You know that most probably this will not happen.
So it's not "yeah, we should have done it to others too and it's our fault we didn't, but from now on we will" It's "when these countries we don't like do it, punish them heavily... when our allied countries do it, do nothing".
This is the actual stance of Western countries, even if you really want to believe it's not. It's not "good vs bad" - it's more of "us vs them". We'll sanction them and won't sanction one of us.
On March 07 2022 16:29 honorablemacroterran wrote:
On March 07 2022 16:05 r00ty wrote: Russia is not a great power. Economically they are not even in the top 10 and getting behind further each year. The Netherlands will pass them this year after the snactions hit, how is that possible? Their military is a joke, look at it, 95% is 70s and 80s tech. It's just the nukes, otherwise it's a failed state.
All the more reason there's no reason to back them into a corner where they feel like their survival is threatened.
If invading Ukraine and slaughtering thousands of innocent civilians was supposed to solve the problem of their survival being threatened i would say its not working very well so far.
If Kim Jong Un attacked South Korea, we should just let him take it. Bye Taiwan, it was nice knowing you as a democracy. Maybe we just should give Putin the Baltics and Poland back, i mean he has nukes, nothing we can do. /s
When you get down to it, South Korea, Taiwan and Poland are core US strategic interests, while Ukraine is not. I am not willing to risk nuclear war over expanding NATO into Ukraine.
On March 07 2022 16:29 honorablemacroterran wrote:
On March 07 2022 16:05 r00ty wrote: Russia is not a great power. Economically they are not even in the top 10 and getting behind further each year. The Netherlands will pass them this year after the snactions hit, how is that possible? Their military is a joke, look at it, 95% is 70s and 80s tech. It's just the nukes, otherwise it's a failed state.
All the more reason there's no reason to back them into a corner where they feel like their survival is threatened.
If invading Ukraine and slaughtering thousands of innocent civilians was supposed to solve the problem of their survival being threatened i would say its not working very well so far.
If Kim Jong Un attacked South Korea, we should just let him take it. Bye Taiwan, it was nice knowing you as a democracy. Maybe we just should give Putin the Baltics and Poland back, i mean he has nukes, nothing we can do. /s
When you get down to it, South Korea, Taiwan and Poland are core US strategic interests, while Ukraine is not. I am not willing to risk nuclear war over expanding NATO into Ukraine.
Yea me too, i'll be there if article 5 gets invoked and i'm not burned to cinders yet. Signed a thing and swore an oath back in the day. But as you see there's middle ground between letting the adversary have its way or immediately starting MAD. Welcome back to the cold war everybody. It has a weird logic, but you'll (have to) get used to it.
On March 06 2022 21:23 AssyrianKing wrote: This is actually just borderline Russophobic. The USA put the Middle East through living hell and nobody bats an eye
Does nobody bat an eye?
The momentum on this is such that Russia is getting the sanction hammer.
I’m as impressed by the actions of states and indeed corporations and individuals on this issue as much as I’m disappointed in the lack of meaningful blowback for an Iraq, or for the actions of Saudi Arabia, or Israel, or whoever else.
In the best of worlds this form of pressure is consistently applied and there is less senseless bloodshed and oppression the world over. We are sadly not in the best of worlds, but not in the worst either whereupon no force or pressure is ever exerted to minimise conflict, because it would be inconsistent.
Whatever does impact everyday Russian people is hopefully as short term as possible, and easily reversible come the cessation of hostilities.
One thing that won’t be easily reversible is the freezing or seizing of assets from oligarchs, assets that let’s be real in many cases weren’t exactly obtained ethically, and at times at the expense of the average Russian.
That's a lot of words to say "I openly acknowledge that the west had done crimes on the same level as the Russian government with no reprecussions. But let's not dwell on the past; we're still going to punish the Russians for the exact same crap the west got away with".
Even disregarding the (very questionable) moral implications, it's pretty obvious that statements like that are much more likely to push ordinary Russians to a further anti-west stance than it is to help ending the conflict. You're not solving the problem, you're escalating it.
I mean, yes?
Anti-West sentiment is a huge component of the fuel that’s pushed Russia westwards this past two decades, but this shouldn’t be pushed back against in case it pushes Russians to a further
Let’s be real, there’s certainly plenty of those in opposition, be it publicly or privately. Putin and his wider policies aren’t exactly without popularity.
Anti-West sentiment, at times indeed with just cause has been carefully wielded to justify exactly the kind of action we’re currently seeing.
On March 07 2022 17:09 ZeroByte13 wrote: Those who say "yes, what USA did in Iraq (and a few other places) was also reprehensible and they completely got away with it BUT we _need_ to start punishing countries with sanctions (that mostly affect common folks) at some point, right?"
Answer this honestly, please. Do you _really_ believe that next time USA will do something like they did with Iraq again, they will get punished in the same way, with heavy sanctions from entire world?
Because you don't actually believe this, right? You know that most probably this will not happen.
So it's not "yeah, we should have done it to others too and it's our fault we didn't, but from now on we will" It's "when these countries we don't like do it, let's punish them heavily... when our allied countries do it, let's do nothing".
This is the actual stance of Western countries, even if you really want to believe it's not. It's not "good vs bad" - it's more of "us vs them". We'll sanction them and won't sanction one of us.
Good luck meaningfully sanctioning the United States. I’d rather wager China is also in that bracket of states that are essentially too powerful to sanction. Of course it wouldn’t happen, I don’t think anyone here has said it would, just that it should.
Russia is not in that bracket. Aside from the fault of their actions precipitating sanctions, their susceptibility to sanctions is also their fault. Endemic corruption has stymied their transition and growth.
There is significantly less appetite in America for another Iraq, which is worth noting and rather oft-neglected. Certainly that informed more recent foreign policy. International pressure is not the only check on the wielding of military force. Aside from the many nations in the West that shy out of being embroiled in such conflicts to begin with.
Lost in the middle of all this is well, Ukraine. A glance at my location may give some clue into my high valuation of national self-determination. Given a broadly 50/50 split of national identity, if either the U.K. or the Republic of Ireland went and fully annexed our wee land I’d find it wholly unacceptable.
Exactly. It's not about who's good and who's bad. It's basically about - can we bully them into submission?
I hope those people here who feel they have high moral ground don't forget this. West is not being "righteous" here but cynical and calculating in their decisions "can we bully X if we don't like what they're doing?"
If USA or China will decide your country is bad and start bombing/invading it (like they did with many countries in last 30 years) for some reason - nobody will help you, nobody will stand for you even if it would the right thing to do.
Of course it doesn't change anything. I just want people to be honest to themselves.
On March 07 2022 19:42 ZeroByte13 wrote: Exactly. It's not about who's good and who's bad. It's basically about - can we bully them into submission?
I hope those people here who feel they have high moral ground don't forget this. West is not being "righteous" here but cynical and calculating in their decisions "can we bully X if we don't like what they're doing?"
If USA or China will decide your country is bad and start bombing/invading it (like they did with many countries in last 30 years) for some reason - nobody will help you, nobody will stand for you even if it would the right thing to do.
Of course it doesn't change anything. I just want people to be honest to themselves.
Last 30 years China bombed/invaded which country? How could China be mentioned together with USA?
Do you think China didn't commit any Really Bad Things in last 30 years?
Bombing and invading was more about US, yes, but the overall meaning was about this - if real "heavy-weights" will start doing bad things to your country, most probably everyone will say "well, sucks to be you, we won't do anything".
I.e. unlike what many think/say here, it's not about "doing the right thing". It's about cynical and calculated "can we bully the Bad Country if they're doing something bad?" Oh, if it's USA/China, they get a pass, we'll look away.
On March 07 2022 19:42 ZeroByte13 wrote: Exactly. It's not about who's good and who's bad. It's basically about - can we bully them into submission?
I hope those people here who feel they have high moral ground don't forget this. West is not being "righteous" here but cynical and calculating in their decisions "can we bully X if we don't like what they're doing?"
If USA or China will decide your country is bad and start bombing/invading it (like they did with many countries in last 30 years) for some reason - nobody will help you, nobody will stand for you even if it would the right thing to do.
Of course it doesn't change anything. I just want people to be honest to themselves.
No, it’s still entirely about who’s good and bad, as well as capacity to do something about it, as well as innumerable other factors.
Russia is the bad guy here in this instance, it just so happens to be a bad guy that can also be bullied to a certain degree. Is it the bad guy all the time? Well no.
There’s a remarkable amount of requests for honesty in a thread chock full of whataboutery, never mind the conflation of the West and the United States, ofc the U.K. was also part of those operations.
There's no conflation of USA and West here. It's about West's reaction. USA / UK / NATO does something bad - West doesn't bat an eye. Russia does something bad - West is full of righteous wrath.
"whataboutery" - yes. Because when Bad Country A does bad things multiple times and nothing happens to its citizens and even to the government, and then when Bad Country B does bad things and everyone sanctions not just the government but also its citizens who did nothing wrong - it's kinda hard to feel "yeah, I deserved it, I'm totaly fine with living in terrible conditions".
Because "yeah but that's how it always goes, it just can't be another way" doesn't work here. It only works this way against some counties (and their citizens) and not for others.
Kinda hard to not feel resentment towards sanctions towards plain folks when you're condemned to living in Really Bad Conditions while many really bad guys/countries get away with their war crimes as if nothing happened.
They commited a war crime? They get a pass, sorry, we can't do anything, won't lift a finger. You personally haven't done anything wrong? Too bad, you have to suffer, sorry, there's no other choice.
...yeah, this couldn't possibly make people resentful towards West and their sanctions towards common folks, right. Oh wait, this is exactly what happens in such scenarios when people are punished for what they haven't done.
I know many people here who were kinda (or mostly) pro-West for as long as I knew them. And I see that for many of them this stance is changing now. Because people desperately need support in time of need, and now they feel that entire outside world hates them and doesn't support them at all. While their government at least promises to support them in some way "against bad West with their sanctions". It will end up in another North Korea, angry and isolated, but with huge nuclear and military arsenal, and right at Europe's doorsteps. It will not end well.
The West is just as unlikely to sanction itself as China or Russia is to sanctioning itself. Or any other greater power.
It would just be stupid to weaken your own position on the world stage, due to "moral righteousness", because the world order gets dictated by whomever has the biggest leverage. This is why international relations are considered anarchy by some (as in there is no greater authority that settles conflicts.)
Sanctions in this large scale are also a type of modern warfare, because you are trying to destabilize a country, and like every type of warfare, innocent civilians suffer the most from it.
The West tries to destroy Russia and its population - ok, fine. Not many people here have any illusions about West being "good guys" who care about us (people, not state) in the slightest.
As there should be no illusions that the West cares about Ukraine and its people that much - they will be readily sacrificed for more leverage against Russia if necessary, it's just another tool.
I just wish people didn't try to sugarcoat it. I wish they admited it's done not because of justice or goodwill, but because it's politically profitable.
The West tries to destroy Russia and its population - ok, fine. Not many people here have any illusions about West being "good guys" who care about us (people, not state) in the slightest.
As there should be no illusions that the West cares about Ukraine and its people that much - they will be readily sacrificed for more leverage against Russia if necessary, it's just another tool.
I just wish people didn't try to sugarcoat it. I wish they admited it's done not because of justice or goodwill, but because it's politically profitable.
The whole world would benefit if Russia stopped being an imperialistic trashheap and started cooperating with other countries.
The West tries to destroy Russia and its population - ok, fine. Not many people here have any illusions about West being "good guys" who care about us (people, not state) in the slightest.
As there should be no illusions that the West cares about Ukraine and its people that much - they will be readily sacrificed for more leverage against Russia if necessary, it's just another tool.
I just wish people didn't try to sugarcoat it. I wish they admited it's done not because of justice or goodwill, but because it's politically profitable.
For the topic, banning players is kind of meaningles at this point, in this kind of competition nationality plays IMO very little in the actual gamedynamic and how players interract with each other.
That being said, I have no idea of your "west". This conflict is all about Russia being dangerious country to every nation it borders. If you really want to spin it in a way, that Murrica or Nato is some kind of bogeyman behind the curtain fine. You think, that us for example have forgotten the crap that Russia has done to us during last 80 years? Or what Poland and Baltic countries suffered under USSR? This has nothing to do with some "West", if Putin wanted to have some kind of relation with countries bordering Russia, maybe he should have done something about it, as being said the choice was war.
"You think, that us for example have forgotten the crap that Russia has done to us during last 80 years" I hope you also remember Finland being on Nazi side in WW2. If you _really_ wanna bring things from the past here and think that current generation should pay for events from 80 years ago.
Also how exactly the true fact that "Poland and Baltic countries suffered under USSR" justifies condemning innocent population (who had no voice in what USSR government did and half of them weren't even born at that point) now?
On March 07 2022 20:21 ZeroByte13 wrote: There's no conflation of USA and West here. It's about West's reaction. USA / UK / NATO does something bad - West doesn't bat an eye. Russia does something bad - West is full of righteous wrath.
"whataboutery" - yes. Because when Bad Country A does bad things multiple times and nothing happens to its citizens and even to the government, and then when Bad Country B does bad things and everyone sanctions not just the government but also its citizens who did nothing wrong - it's kinda hard to feel "yeah, I deserved it, I'm totaly fine with living in terrible conditions".
Because "yeah but that's how it always goes, it just can't be another way" doesn't work here. It only works this way against some counties (and their citizens) and not for others.
Kinda hard to not feel resentment towards sanctions towards plain folks when you're condemned to living in Really Bad Conditions while many really bad guys/countries get away with their war crimes as if nothing happened.
They commited a war crime? They get a pass, sorry, we can't do anything, won't lift a finger. You personally haven't done anything wrong? Too bad, you have to suffer, sorry, there's no other choice.
...yeah, this couldn't possibly make people resentful towards West and their sanctions towards common folks, right. Oh wait, this is exactly what happens in such scenarios when people are punished for what they haven't done.
I know many people here who were kinda (or mostly) pro-West for as long as I knew them. And I see that for many of them this stance is changing now. Because people desperately need support in time of need, and now they feel that entire outside world hates them and doesn't support them at all. While their government at least promises to support them in some way "against bad West with their sanctions". It will end up in another North Korea, angry and isolated, but with huge nuclear and military arsenal, and right at Europe's doorsteps. It will not end well.
Just because almost every blatantly corrupt billionaire can be forever insulated from prosecution by virtue of their wealth, doesn’t mean I think the odd one that does get convicted should go free because it would be hypocritical as they’re being singled out. A similar principle applies here.
States do not exist without people, ultimately. People like to beat the drums of nationalism, conquest, revenge and war rather a lot when they’re completely isolated from what that actually means and the consequences.
If one wants to ride the tiger of nationalism into those kind of areas, I think putting collective asses on the line if it spirals out of control is an effective way to exert some limits.
Certainly didn’t happen with Iraq. Certainly would not have happened here for most Russians but for sanctions.
An important note is that this general tethering principle is absolutely not the same thing as saying any individual in a nation is individually responsible for the actions of their nation. It is that if collective actions have collective consequences, those actions have to be taken and advocated for more judiciously.
Another important thing to note is the rather large amount of nations who did not go to war in Iraq, or went beyond that to actively opposing it. Because it was very unpopular and people made this known.
The outside world doesn’t support this, indeed. These aren’t anti-Russian sanctions. They’re not the (I’d argue) unjust and ineffective standards we’ve seen that are primarily if not entirely US driven, as we’ve seen with Cuba, or Iran. That do indeed act to entrench the very things they’re meant to (IMO wrongly) dislodge. I’d argue they are such different scenarios that they’re not even particularly linked beyond falling under the umbrella of sanctions.
They are ‘get the fuck out of Western Ukraine’ sanctions, brought by half the world in various guises.
I would not, for example support a continuation of the vast majority of these sanctions in a scenario where there is a cessation of hostility.
I’m seeing very little appetite to destroy the lives of ordinary Russians. I’m sure it’s been expressed all over the internet, but it’s certainly not the mainstream view anywhere I’ve seen.
Also conspicuous by their absence are posts from ‘not Russia’ are I dunno, anything besides this whataboutery? What about all the other aspects of this scenario? Like one’s stance on even going into Ukraine.
From what I understand it is unwise to express certain viewpoints on this issue, especially on Western-based forums, so if that is accurate I would certainly recommend not engaging with those areas.
What even is ‘the West’ here?
What links, I don’t know, Finland and the United States really?
Two wrongs don't make a right. "The West" should definitely help Ukraine beat back Russia, then do anything it could to unseat Putin without risking nuclear war. Then it can start paying reparations to Libya, Iraq etc and maybe send Bush, Sarkozy, Obama and the likes to the same prison Putin is staying at.
On March 07 2022 23:04 ZeroByte13 wrote: "You think, that us for example have forgotten the crap that Russia has done to us during last 80 years" I hope you also remember Finland being on Nazi side in WW2. If you _really_ wanna bring things from the past here and think that current generation should pay for events from 80 years ago.
Also how exactly the true fact that "Poland and Baltic countries suffered under USSR" justifies condemning innocent population (who had no voice in what USSR government did and half of them weren't even born at that point) now?
Yes it makes sense, the nazification of Finland is good reason to threaten us. Every country around Russia should just bow down to it, get bombed when ever, forced into crap like YYA and what not. I did not know about link with Nazi Finland- Germany - Ukraine and todays Nato, thank you for clarifying this information.
On March 07 2022 23:16 WombaT wrote:Like one’s stance on even going into Ukraine.
You can figure out my stance exactly from me not touching this topic...
Only sanctions towards common folks in hopes it will make them "do something" are wrong to me.
Like, there's a guy who bullies someone. You don't want to confront this guy (he's big and armed) to not escalate the direct violence, so to teach him a lesson you break his mom's legs and threaten to do the same to his sister (i.e. more sanctions) if he won't stop.
Why not - after all maybe his mom will beg him to stop and he'll listen, right?
Can this be effective? Maybe. Is this reprehensible to make innocents suffer for what their "relatives" did? Absolutely.
Only in our case it has a quite small chance of being effective. If you lived here you'd know this. So basically it just makes innocents suffer because "we can't do anything else, but at least we can do this" for no gain.
On March 07 2022 23:16 WombaT wrote:Like one’s stance on even going into Ukraine.
You can figure out my stance exactly from me not touching this topic...
Only sanctions towards common folks in hopes it will make them "do something" are wrong to me.
Like, there's a guy who bullies someone. You don't want to confront this guy (he's big and armed) to not escalate the direct violence, so to teach him a lesson you break his mom's legs and threaten to do the same to his sister (i.e. more sanctions) if he won't stop.
Why not - after all maybe his mom will beg him to stop and he'll listen, right?
Can this be effective? Maybe. Is this reprehensible to make innocents suffer for what their "relatives" did? Absolutely.
Only in our case it has a quite small chance of being effective. If you lived here you'd know this. So basically it just makes innocents suffer because "we can't do anything else, but at least we can do this" for no gain.
There isn’t really a directly applicable analogy for this scenario.
It is reprehensible in ways yes, I don’t actually think many would argue otherwise. It is merely the least reprehensible option available when the alternatives are leave Russia to do their thing, or risk a serious escalation of war by trying to directly confront it.
Ironically where such sanctions would, IMO be way more effective (namely the West) they’re not applied, as you correctly point out.
We shall see how effective they are in this case.
I don’t think those of us that are in favour of sanctions, although I can only speak for myself, have any illusions over it having some massive impact.
Move the needle just enough to stop innocent folks dying in Ukraine, and innocent people in Russia can stop suffering via sanctions.
Any wider, sustained sanctions post that, with the intention of trying to push that needle all the way to something like regime change in Russia would be a giant mistake, for the reasons you have stated before.
On March 03 2022 14:37 phodacbiet wrote: No, I don't think they should ban Russian teams/players. I think sc2 organizers should stay out of politics.
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While there are people thinking like you, ruzzia is happy to invade all the countries they want. The more people think that killing innocent peoples, children, raping and robbing everyone they see on their way in the scale of thousands crimes per day... .
Btw, there were another comment in the topic about 'innocent' players from ru, but 1. Most of them refused to be non-affiliant even to ru flag, 2. Stayed live in ru and pay taxes funding the war and all the crimes in Ukraine and other countries 3. Think they could act with impunity even after cheating in SC2 (master vasya, nerazim and other creatures) 4. If you still think OK with previous 3 point (who are you?!) let's check insta profiles for some of Pro ru gamers who partisipates in ESL tour right now. Check YoungYakov profile photo. It's clearly seen he is is wearing an army uniform (ruzzian one of course) and has covered his face.