On December 07 2010 23:51 Jibba wrote: The hatch isn't what's greedy, the hatch is the safe part of the build because Zerg relies on opening up the choke (if the second hatch is placed above the ramp, then a T army can contain on the ramp and Zerg loses in midgame), having creep and having larva.
What's been greedy has been larva/drone usage. If people want to understand Z better, they should read Day9's article on the Economy of Larva. Execution obviously plays a big role but most of the Zs that dropped due to 2Rax did not conserve larva or were late/misplaced their Spine Crawlers.
It might still be an issue, but it's not something you can judge solely from GSL games because the Zs have not been executing properly.
this is exactly true, Hatch first itself isnt a greedy build. The zergs are greedy because they all want to drone like crazy and not have to build roaches or zerglings in any number until 7-8mins. Why? because they have a very high chance to win if they drone like crazy and arent harassed. A zerg will jump like 40 food ahead after his natural is saturated, with no harassament.
Jibba definitly has it right, zergs can still 14 hatch, they just need to be much more conservative with their drone production if they want to hold these early pushes.
If 14 expand hatch is the safest build, then something should change. A fast hatchery should be risky but give the best economic rewards. Just like 14 Nexus. So maybe increase the hatch cost but reduce the build time plus buff pool first builds in some way (Faster queen build time)?
On December 07 2010 03:12 Welmu wrote: I wouldn't blame Blizzard on this. I think it's Nestea's problem not being prepared for all-in. Seriously, Marine/SCV all in isn't impossible to beat...
Actually it is quite impossible to beat since u have to go 14 hatch and 14 hatch is an auto-lose vs scv/marine all in as we saw on steppes of war.
well see here's the thing.
You don't HAVE to go hatch first. I repeat, you do not HAVE to hatch first. Hatch first is a build designed to give an edge over the opponent right away. If he leaves you alone he is behind, period. Pool first into Hatchery is a lot safer but doesn't give you that edge straight away.
I would also like to state the record that most zergs nowadays don't scout with a drone if they go hatch first or plan to. If you send in an overlord in one direction and a drone at 9 in the other, you will scout both the bases in roughly the same time, leaving only the far away cross-position base unscouted. This gives you a 66% chance of scouting what he is doing for only a couple of minerals lost.
I am absolutely baffled when I watch progamers not scouting with a drone when they go hatchery first. Its like the riskiest opening you can open up with but they still believe that the 100 mineral over 2 minutes gained by keeping the drone mining is better than scouting that proxy barracks/forge first sooner which will completely destroy hatch first builds.
I can't fanthom why zergs nowadays think you have to hatch first. Infact, since most of the terrans go for aggressive economy punishing builds, its an advantage if you go pool first since you can hold off the aggression more easily.
For the record, I'm around 1800 diamond zerg ( not like it matters ) who goes pool first vs terran and dronescout on 9, and I still win a lot of my games.
You do have to go hatch first. Pool first gets u auto-lose if your opponent reacts correctly. Why do u think Nestea went for hatch first every single game ?
See, Nestea lost because this game isn`t balanced yet :/
What's been greedy has been larva/drone usage. If people want to understand Z better, they should read Day9's article on the Economy of Larva. Execution obviously plays a big role but most of the Zs that dropped due to 2Rax did not conserve larva or were late/misplaced their Spine Crawlers.
Yeah. How many Zergs have we seen producing full out drones when they know that the opponent has his army intact, thus an attack is possible. They do this because if that attack does not come, then they are very ahead in economy but, it is a risk, as it should.
If a zerg produces drones non-stop, it's only slightly faster than a command center, and even SLOWER than a c-boosted nexus. Until a queen is out, if we are not droning, we are behind the other races, which is very bad doing into mid-game. After a queen is out, yes, some larva should almost always be tagged for units, but when you are on 1-2 hatcheries and no queen, it's a very fine line.
On December 08 2010 00:03 Darpa wrote: Why? because they have a very high chance to win if they drone like crazy and arent harassed. A zerg will jump like 40 food ahead after his natural is saturated, with no harassament.
That's what we've seen for the most part, besides Clide/Leenock or Maka vs. Nestea g2 (this is the ideal game to watch perfect drone production, imo.) People go crazy when July or FD roll a passive T with a fast 200 army, but the reason they can do that is the exact same reason they can get taken out by 2rax play.
If one player is good at the mid- and late-game(NesTea), why shouldn't the lesser player(Rain) force a decision in the early game? If your opponent has the high ground, don't attack from low ground...
And the to voices regarding Korean(!) Terrans cheesy style: depot before rax is enough counter to that. someday the other races will learn to deal with that style -> ever shifting meta game
On December 08 2010 00:07 Thrombozyt wrote: If 14 expand hatch is the safest build, then something should change. A fast hatchery should be risky but give the best economic rewards. Just like 14 Nexus. So maybe increase the hatch cost but reduce the build time plus buff pool first builds in some way (Faster queen build time)?
The races operate on completely different mechanics. >.> This is akin to comparing Broodlords and Carriers, since they're both tier 3.5 tech. If the hatch isn't up early, then it's not going up for a very long time and the zerg is forced to 1 base, The same was true in BW for a very long time. You 3 hatch for the larva.
Maybe there needs to be a way to make pool first aggression more viable like it was in BW, but I can only see that happening with a buff to zerglings.
What's been greedy has been larva/drone usage. If people want to understand Z better, they should read Day9's article on the Economy of Larva. Execution obviously plays a big role but most of the Zs that dropped due to 2Rax did not conserve larva or were late/misplaced their Spine Crawlers.
Yeah. How many Zergs have we seen producing full out drones when they know that the opponent has his army intact, thus an attack is possible. They do this because if that attack does not come, then they are very ahead in economy but, it is a risk, as it should.
If a zerg produces drones non-stop, it's only slightly faster than a command center, and even SLOWER than a c-boosted nexus. Until a queen is out, if we are not droning, we are behind the other races, which is very bad doing into mid-game. After a queen is out, yes, some larva should almost always be tagged for units, but when you are on 1-2 hatcheries and no queen, it's a very fine line.
If Z can find a "safe" period between early-mid, then that's when they'd ideally power and catch up on drones. That's why I referenced the Maka vs. Nestea g2. Obviously without replays, we don't know for sure, but I assume Maka's SCV production is nearly perfect and as soon as Nestea is secured, he was able to power and pass him in workers.
On December 08 2010 00:08 UFO wrote: You do have to go hatch first. Pool first gets u auto-lose if your opponent reacts correctly. Why do u think Nestea went for hatch first every single game ?
Why do you think July goes pool and gas first? Everyone can play the game you just did and say you will auto-lose by doing this or that. I think you`re all wrong by saying random junk like that.
What's been greedy has been larva/drone usage. If people want to understand Z better, they should read Day9's article on the Economy of Larva. Execution obviously plays a big role but most of the Zs that dropped due to 2Rax did not conserve larva or were late/misplaced their Spine Crawlers.
Yeah. How many Zergs have we seen producing full out drones when they know that the opponent has his army intact, thus an attack is possible. They do this because if that attack does not come, then they are very ahead in economy but, it is a risk, as it should.
If a zerg produces drones non-stop, it's only slightly faster than a command center, and even SLOWER than a c-boosted nexus. Until a queen is out, if we are not droning, we are behind the other races, which is very bad doing into mid-game. After a queen is out, yes, some larva should almost always be tagged for units, but when you are on 1-2 hatcheries and no queen, it's a very fine line.
With a queen of course. Just seeing my opponents build 10 drones at once and then qqing because they die to a push they knew was possibly going to come is silly.
I don't even do the 2 rax thing, just play macro mech. Obviously the top, top players manage their larvae quite good but, in mid-high diamond...jeez.. they either build only drones or only attack units. Someone should write a book on playing Zerg lol.
On December 08 2010 00:08 UFO wrote: You do have to go hatch first. Pool first gets u auto-lose if your opponent reacts correctly. Why do u think Nestea went for hatch first every single game ?
Why do you think July goes pool and gas first? Everyone can play the game you just did and say you will auto-lose by doing this or that. I think you`re all wrong by saying random junk like that.
Alivefou did not 2 rax against July though, saying July's (speedling expand) opener was good would be like saying Moon's opener vs. Jinro was good even though Jinro didn't 2 rax either. You don't how July would have dealt with 2 rax because it actually didn't happen.
Man... how could he apologize to some bunch of nerds that would do the same shit while playing a better player. I would tell them they can **** my balls, I want my 85 grand no matter what. I think he will play worse in his next match just because things like this affect him, he will be afraid to cheese, go macro, try to put on a show and loose. gg.
Thank you for bringing the topic to the west. I'm also happy to see that most answers were reasonable.
My personal input on this is simple: improving overall strategic knowledge of players 'versus' better spectacle for viewers.
Experiencing workers as a viable military force in high level play is a valuable experience for players. In time, it improves the overall level of skill in a way that can even contribute to further gain from the spectacle point of view.
On the other hand, holding off change to assure a good spectacle hardly improves the overall strategic knowledge or micromanagment from players.
Maybe there needs to be a way to make pool first aggression more viable like it was in BW, but I can only see that happening with a buff to zerglings.
The smart way would be to increase zergling speed, and decrease the gain from metabolic boost to maintain parity. Though it reduces the value of the upgrade.
Zerg had a tough time, they found a way to compete with terran. A patch came out, putting zerg slightly ahead. Terran had a tough time, they now found a way to compete with zerg. Now zerg has to figure out how to compete with terran.
We can just ask for something to nerf terran so zerg can do their thing, cuz then zerg will be OP and terrans will cry. Of course, as well all know from proven facts, the map pool sucks ass from a straw. I dont even think we can talk about race balance nor can we blame terran players for doing this, they do it cuz they can, cuz blizzard let them do so. SC2 will make more sense when serious maps are available.
Maybe there needs to be a way to make pool first aggression more viable like it was in BW, but I can only see that happening with a buff to zerglings.
The smart way would be to increase zergling speed, and decrease the gain from metabolic boost to maintain parity. Though it reduces the value of the upgrade.
Pool first is already viable in both ZvZ and ZvP.
The problem has to do with Marines being FREAKING AWESOME in this game.
On December 08 2010 00:08 UFO wrote: You do have to go hatch first. Pool first gets u auto-lose if your opponent reacts correctly. Why do u think Nestea went for hatch first every single game ?
Why do you think July goes pool and gas first? Everyone can play the game you just did and say you will auto-lose by doing this or that. I think you`re all wrong by saying random junk like that.
Alivefou did not 2 rax against July though, saying July's (speedling expand) opener was good would be like saying Moon's opener vs. Jinro was good even though Jinro didn't 2 rax either. You don't how July would have dealt with 2 rax because it actually didn't happen.
Actually, I won`t even pretend I know enough about TvZ to make a good judgment about whether these marine pushes/rushes are imba or not. The whole point of my post was just to show the terrible illogical whining in the post I quoted. He had Nestea as an example, I had July. July didn`t autolose against what was thrown at him. The post I quoted is pretty much the equivalent of saying the Marshall Attack in chess is an autoloss because you lose a pawn.
I think people are using their emotions way to much in passing judgement on game balance, that`s all.
On December 08 2010 03:35 Dagyar wrote: The smart way would be to increase zergling speed, and decrease the gain from metabolic boost to maintain parity. Though it reduces the value of the upgrade
That might mess up ZvP and take away a lot of the pressure Stalkers can do before zergling speed finishes. I don`t think making Tosses struggle even harder putting legit early pressure on zerg is the way to go. They have many good timing pushes against zerg, but very few good early game pressures that isn`t completely all-in.
It's sad to see so many terrans thinking against zerg you 'can't' go to a mid or late game...maybe that mentality is holding terran play back. Jinro has gone into the mid and late game against zerg and did just fine. So obviously it's more then possible if you're not wasting army on ill timed pushes.
SCV all ins requie little skill or even planning to setup, zerg is likely to know there is a 2 rax, but just blindly preparing for an all in that doesn't come puts you behind. That's the problem I personally have with SCV marine all ins. They can come and potentially crush you with an SCV soft wall, or they can feign it you prepare anyway then play a macro game and get way ahead.
Simply building 2 barracks quickly shouldn't give you a strategic advantage that early in the game. Zerg has to either prepar and risk the mid to late game, or risk dieing to the push if it comes...on top of that tarren can drop a scan before he pushes and decide if it's worth pushing or not.
This does not seem like proper game balance to me.
Has nothing to do with lategamephobia by TvZ Terrans, scv all ins are too good to pass out in these small shitty warcraft 3-style maps made by Blizzard.