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On December 07 2010 07:31 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 07:25 avilo wrote: Ok, so I just LOOOVEEEEE how Zergs complain about this, even Idra/Ret complain, but they conveniently leave out Z>T in a long macro game.
We get it. Two rax seems hard. But maybe complain for a balanced game, not a game where Zerg will have early game + late game dominance lmao...
if this really is a "problem" then TvZ lategame is as much a problem as this is, but Zergs keep their mouths shut about that don't they? Every top Zerg seems content to defend defend defend into freewin, so now when Terrans are like "fuck you Zergs, till blizz fixes lategame we're just gonna do this shit over and over," Zergs whine again? lol... I never heard from progamers that Z>T in lategame. How can we know that if all games end before 12 min? Didn't Foxer, Jinro, Clide show some good macro games? Also, you don't get the point of thread. People are talking about how games suck due to allin/cheese strategies, its bad for viewership. I don't see Zerg complaining about balance much here.
If you read the entire thread you would see people calling nerf to the marines and scv. So yes there are Zerg complaining about balance.
Which macro games did Foxer play? I did not watch this whole GSL so please point me to that. As for Jinro he just schooled a guy who was 2 levels below his. I could macro and beat a silver Zerg like that and it does not mean anything. Too bad we won't get to see his style against a good Zerg this season. Clide won a macro game on the most TvZ imba map which is Jungle Basin, The reason why it was close on Shakuras was because Leenock did not use the Broodlords to take out Clide's third when he had a huge as chance to do so.
Pro gamers talk about Z>T late game. I think Jinro did mention his view on Avilo's blog. He said essentially "do damage early or die." He did also said he doesn't mind if that is the state of the game but as long as the map allows Terran to pressure early.
I however disagree with him on this point. A balance game should allow both races equal chance to win both early and late game. One race is trying to hold the other race from exploding in the late game is certainly not balance. You should be able to choose to play defensively if you want to. Not being forced into being aggressive.
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On December 07 2010 08:11 LancerStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 07:50 blade55555 wrote:On December 07 2010 07:47 LancerStarcraft wrote: GSL Zergs should stop going hatch before pool when they know they are going to get 2-rax/4raxed all-ined. this post shows you don't know anything about zerg. I'll explain to why top zergs are hatch firsting still even though there is 2 rax all ins all the time. If you go pool first guess what the terran can do to you? He can push make you cancel your expo (if you didn't make one he'll be even happier) then bunker contain you at the bottom of the ramp. Then the terran throws down his expo before the zerg can remake/start his if he goes pool first. So that means zerg is already incredibly behind as we all know terran getting his natural before a zerg is super bad for zerg. Also if you go hatch first you get more larva which = more zerglings when the push comes so you can defend. Nestea defended poorly as he should have been able to defend against that like he did against fake boxer. "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"
Time spent not expanding means you're now locking yourself up your ramp against a terran who can bunker up or just expand themselves. Every zerg knows 2 rax is coming, hence the reason they transfer so many of their drones to their natural to prepare for the inevitable attack. The longer you sit on 1 base the further and further behind you get. Assuming you make enough lings that the terran ends up withdrawing, you now have to expand and begin to saturate. However, the terran while saturating (even moreso with multes) can produce a large army so his window to attack the weakened zerg is gigantic.
That quote, by the way, would only be relevant if they never won a game going hatch first. But as it has been seen plenty of time this gsl, going hatch first can defend against it even though it's very difficult.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On December 07 2010 05:20 kuroshiro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 04:54 Rekrul wrote: hate the game not the playa
and LOL at posting a public apology about that. what a bitch. He's not apologising about exploiting the game. He's apologising about not practicing and not being able to show the audience what he's capable of. There's a difference. Some people care about their fans and the fans of other professionals in the sport.
Yeah and that sounds like a load of BS
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hmm just watched those games. I enjoyed it.
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On December 07 2010 08:02 z00t wrote: Nestea vs Rain was legit. I mean, when it comes to broader balance concerns like Morrow's use of Reapers, I believe that most of us agreed that players should do whatever it takes to win, and leave the balancing to Blizzard.
You can't just make a 10-minute no-rush rule for SC2 - that's ridiculous. Knowing how to stop certain all-in attacks is a skill in itself.
Even in BW, the better players know to expect some sort of cheesy strat from the lesser players because they know that the less-skilled players can't hope to go head-to-head with them in a macro game. And we don't blame those less-skilled players for sticking with some sort of early game play. So I don't understand why everyone's so riled up with Rain's games in particular.
Actually a lot of people do, lol.
But I agree that we shouldn't blame lesser players for taking any sort of advantage they can. If they don't they aren't true competitors.
Nestea should've expected cheese every game and prepared accordingly.
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Everybody that keeps talking about "the fans don't want to see this" crap are so full of it, don't have any real information, and are just making guesses, or listening to a few whiny forum posts as their basis for that claim.
Boxer is super famous for many early game rushes that ended the game early in BW. The fans liked seeing that. He was undisputedly the most popular player of BW due to his insane micro, and he was always considered to be lacking in macro.
I have put forth the evidence that many fans do enjoy micro fests, clever timings, and rushes. Counter with....
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Yes. Its a bit of a mess right now. The mu's actually pretty good apart from zerg randomly losing 8 minutes into the game. Just the threat of it has a negative effect on management games too.
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Really disappointing series, but for that much money I'd also play to win.
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On December 07 2010 08:19 itsMAHVELbaybee wrote: "build more shit than the zerg."
Sadly its true
SC2 is all about building more stuff. No more strategic placement of mines, tanks, lurkers and recall. All you need, build more shit than your opponent.
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Well... late game is very hard to terran... so... yes we are going to all in every single game till its fixed.
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On December 07 2010 08:18 Severedevil wrote:So... possible Zerg alternatives to 14 hatch nat --> lose to 2 rax. - 11 Overpool. Fast queen --> very high larva count, early pool --> early opportunity to make lings. Make a couple, check your opponent out, and go from there. Your inject will be quick enough to combat a rush if he performs one, so you don't need to go all-out zergling from the get-go. - Zergling presence + runby If Terran moves out with everything, you can move in with 4 Zerglings --> no mining (even with 'OP' mules) and no more unit production until he comes back home. Now that Terran's all-in, you just have to defend. (Hell, you don't even need to protect your natural, because it's not worthwhile for Terran to march all his SCVs across the map just to kill one hatchery and go home.) - Don't plant your hatchery on the path between the Terran and Zerg bases He attacks your main? You have Zerglings streaming from your second hatch to counter or flank. He attack your other base? You have Zerglings streaming from your main hatch to counter or flank. You can force the Terran out of position relative to one of your two hatcheries if he wants to move out. Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 07:56 Angelbelow wrote:On December 07 2010 07:48 dabom88 wrote:
I'm in this group of people. I recognize the skill of pro Zerg players. And I can see the reasoning behind the argument of "14 Hatch is safest/best against 2-Rax". I see how it COULD be true. But until I see more non-14 Hatch builds vs. 2-Rax and see how they compare in viability, I don't think it's hard to see why I would be more convinced of the argument that 14 Hatch ISN'T the best opener against 2-Rax. Youre trying to be objective. That is a good thing, but in this situation I dont think youre being objective. Do you not think its possible that Idra and Ret practiced with pool first? They cant be that stupid can they? For them to proclaim that "strategy X" is the best way we found, do you assume that thats the only thing they tried? I'm willing to bet that they tried a bunch of variations before coming to a conclusion. As far as seeing a different opener vs a 2-rax, maybe we don't see it because all the zergs feel as if hatch first truly is better. No, I do not believe that Idra/Ret have adequately practiced pool-first openers such as 11 overpool. In fact, from Ret's assertion that the first injection arrives too late to fight the first push, I'm led to believe he's doing 14+ pool builds, which exchange later injection and lings for more cash to invest in a faster second hatchery or gas. If Idra, Ret, or other pro zergs that complain of 2-Rax openings have practiced at least a few dozen matches of 11 overpool vs. 2 rax, I entreat them to share. Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 07:47 Airfan wrote: I don't mind cheese at all. 6pool here, proxy gates there, it keeps players on their toes, makes them scout early and enables them to play mind games. But seriously, if 2 rax is going to become/stay as the new standard like 5 rax reaper was some time ago, there is something obviously broken in the matchup. Why? 2 Rax OC is a reasonable balance of aggression and economy. You get a solid early unit count without over-committing, at the expense of delaying tech/expansion by a minute or so. Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 07:41 Lokian wrote:On December 07 2010 07:38 Disastorm wrote:On December 07 2010 07:34 Ympulse wrote:On December 07 2010 07:27 Shana wrote: Cheese or not, a win is a win. This is all that needs to be said. When thousands of dollars are on the line, you either play to win or go home a loser. People aren't complaining that he cheesed, they are complaining that the cheese is too strong. Basically blizzard nerfed the reaper cheese and also nerfed the previous scv marine all in by reducing scv hp. Well its still too strong and needs more nerfing. bring back drone range :p Please do! And for probes. The way workers fight nowadays makes me a sad panda. terrans scout and adjust. a profound concept, i know
if they see 11pool and lings being pumped non stop bunker + CC = GG what are you going to do with 12+ slow lings and a terribly late expo when you opponent is mining faster than what he can produce out of 2 rax
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On December 07 2010 03:14 Chill wrote: As soon as you "want to see amazing games", you set up some WWE system where it's not people trying to win, but trying to put on a show.
I want people doing anything in their power to win. I want people playing the dirtiest games you've ever seen in your life because it's their best chance to win. And, as a side effect of this, when people do show amazing, drawn-out games, they will be that much more special because of the rarity.
No. The difference between that and what people are saying is that WWE is just show, just acting. No one said they wanted that. And since when will they be rare? All ins is the most common thing in the world these days, let alone special. You're just bumbling out wonderful words in the hopes to associate them with the argument you're trying to make and make it seem better than it actually is. Reapers were boring to watch. Always the same thing, hard to defend has zerg, not in a million years someone would wow to them.
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Hey guys, guess what? No more TvZ's remaining in GSL season 3! At least we can celebrate that right?
Protoss Fighting!!!!
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I don't have a problem with it at all, as a Terran player I feel like its making a Zerg player apologize for winning with hatch first builds. Yeah its cheesy but you can't blame him for doing something that hard counters something else.
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On December 07 2010 08:17 darmousseh wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 07 2010 08:14 ParasitJonte wrote:Show nested quote +Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results That's actually a very bad definition. Then again, Einstein wasn't particularly keen on quantum mechanics. I actually think it's a great definition. The world is completely deterministic and so is sc2 to an extent. In a deterministic world, it is insane to expect different results from the same state. Not a single state is in fact the same so is not insane. //off topic
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mehh this is just part of strategy evolution. if you don't see this kinda shit now, you're going to have to see and deal with it eventually. the earlier we see cheesy garbage, the earlier it can be dealt with by players or by blizzard.
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On December 07 2010 08:29 darmousseh wrote: Hey guys, guess what? No more TvZ's remaining in GSL season 3! At least we can celebrate that right?
Protoss Fighting!!!!
LOL Way to be positive
I hope it's a PvP final, after not having a PvP the entire tournament
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The worst part is now either Rain or HongUn will be in the final, which is ridiculous. In my eyes, neither one of them is even ro16 worthy.
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I love how I got fucking temp banned for making the exact same point as OP 2 days ago. At any rate, I wholeheartedly agree with the OP's point... the early marine + scv rush is too powerful and ruins the game. Especially when it works 3/3 times against the best zerg player in the world, even when he scouted it and knew it was coming.
/hopefully the mods don't temp ban me again for stating my opinion, like everybody else in this thread. sure, i did reference the earlier banning (which i'm sure you don't like) but it's collateral to the other points i'm making. hopefully you don't feel the need to power trip and screw with me again for expressing my opinion.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Calgary25942 Posts
On December 07 2010 08:26 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 08:19 itsMAHVELbaybee wrote: "build more shit than the zerg." Sadly its true SC2 is all about building more stuff. No more strategic placement of mines, tanks, lurkers and recall. All you need, build more shit than your opponent. You must have been watching SC2 with your eyes closed.
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