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On February 29 2024 15:32 RPR_Tempest wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2024 15:15 Perceivere wrote:On February 29 2024 14:40 RPR_Tempest wrote:On February 29 2024 10:38 Perceivere wrote: There is no telling whether Life's wins were also match-fixed. That alone should exclude him from any list.
Putting children who never played LotV on a GOAT list is a bit comical to me. It's well known in chess that players don't reach their plateau until at least their early twenties, and more typically their late twenties. Not only was the game in its juvenile state, the skill levels of players and their mental states were also in the juvenile states. I find it all just too absurd. One can argue that the rapid-pace SC2 game is different from classical chess, but Hikaru Nakamura shows that even in your thirties you can be the top dog of 1-min bullet chess.
There is no telling if Life or MVP's peaks would be significantly higher/lower than the peak of the current pool of players. Remember that after MVP had all of his success he petered off into the middle of the pack. His plateau was such that he just couldn't keep up with the front of the pack, and the ever rising skill floor. Or, perhaps HotS did him in, in which case the lack of ability to adjust is a mark against him. True greats should excel at adapting.
I mean, I get that you're pressed to include kids, because the life expectancy of SC2 seems closer than the farthest horizon, and a good chunk of players had left the game long ago. Still, meh...Comparing WoL or Hots to current level of play is like comparing high school league to major league baseball. I don't care what children accomplished in high school. This is just silly. No WoL-HotS-exclusive players should be anywhere near the top5, unless they were far and away dominant for their entire career, which none of these kids was. Mvp couldn't keep up because of crippling injury that rendered him unable to even practice. PLEASE learn the history and circumstances of a player before trying to speak on their career with authority. Authority? I'm not the one writing articles. I don't buy the injury excuse. How ever he got injured is on him. Pros are responsible for their own health, and not driving themselves over the brink of over-extension. Overtraining injuries also happen in sports, where set back is even worse on their cardio conditioning. I don't know how much less severe it is in progaming, but each time I took a long hiatus from laddering, it didn't take long to return to my prior form, but I'm not a pro. Either way, it was his responsibility to take care of his wrist. Wrist was a minor issue compared to his neck/spine. His wrist pain was mostly coming from nerves in his neck. Seriously, his neck was real messed up, nerve/spinal damage kind of deal. He described the difficulty in gripping the mouse properly. You regained your prior form quickly? Good for you. At the pro level at the time, your prior form wasn't enough and the level was always going up. Dozens of players playing ten hours a day. If you're injured and can only play four? Guess what, you're falling behind every single day. I guess technically he did plateau but framing it as a skill issue that he couldn't keep up or adapt to HotS is ridiculous. He was doing great in the first few months of HotS. Sorry if I come off as a little caustic but as someone who was there for all that stuff, the amount of misinformation about older SC2 stuff I've seen since this series began has been crazy. MVP was also playing without sound to be able to hear his mouse clicks, because he literally couldn't tell by his own body. But the guy you are responding to is right. If MVP was really such a gosu gamer that his skill would translate until today. Well then it sounds to me, better to sacrifice winning in the then, in exchange for continuing to win throughout a long career. Not only for his body, but it would also translate into more wins in the end. That is if his skill could actually translate until today, which I do not think is the case at all.
On February 29 2024 05:53 Nasigil wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2024 05:07 ejozl wrote:Rogue has this crazy bo7 record. But how do the stats look, if we just look at every finals? ex. TaeJa has incredible winrate in finals, but many were probably bo5's, I'd be interested to see this. On February 28 2024 08:30 Charoisaur wrote:On February 28 2024 04:08 Nasigil wrote:On February 28 2024 01:48 Charoisaur wrote:On February 28 2024 01:01 Nasigil wrote:On February 28 2024 00:37 Charoisaur wrote:On February 28 2024 00:32 WombaT wrote:On February 28 2024 00:13 Fango wrote:On February 28 2024 00:03 Pandain wrote: [quote]
But this doesn't even mean that much to me because a huge chunk of rogues prime took place during the pandemic, when every tournament was online for like a year and a half. Why are we excluding that? And the offline only stat maybe has more value pre 2018 or so, but major international online tournaments are pretty much the bedrock of modern SC2 for the past six five years or so. Again, weird to exclude.
And I suppose for whatever it's worth maybe you can't say Rogue had bad ZVP considering his offline results. But I'm definitely never going to call someone "the best ZvP of all time" who literally has sub 50% win rates against the best toss players overall. Because none of Rogue's championships were in the online era, except one GSL that was offline anyway. His legendary run was 2017-18, he then won the 2020 WC and GSLs in 19, 20, 21, and 22. You can read in the article that Rogue had an almost Serral -like winrate Vs top protoss players offline. Which accounts for almost every relavent event. Even adjusting for including online (which includes mostly irrelevant tournaments) his winrate is still 66% from 2017 onwards against protoss. I don't know where you're getting this idea of sub-50% from. I’ve been noodling away on Aligulac, bemoaning my lack of a desktop PC in lieu of a phone! I’m unsure where 50% is coming from :S Anyway picking an arbitrary cutoff, January 1st 2017, offline only, South Korean opposition: - Serral is 72–35[\i] (67.29%) in games and 27–8 (77.14%) in matches.
- Rogue is 147–76 (65.92%) in games and 52–21 (71.23%) in matches.
Bear in mind that Serral is only playing Korean Toss players good enough to make the big offline events, where Rogue has more opportunity to play the lesser Korean Toss in early GSL rounds. Also, as per my previous stat dump, the Covid-induced offline premier period really makes it difficult to filter easily to do a direct Premier tournament comparison. Filtering for offline online cuts out some big, big online tournaments, but dropping the filter introduces a bunch of way less prestigious tournaments. Even on that data, with the aforementioned caveats Serral is still ahead, and I’d wager he’d be even further ahead if we’re counting premier online tournaments. Rogue’s numbers bear out that he is a ZvP monster, just Serral is the ZvP monster.
I just hope someone reads this and my previous stats dump as my god trying to do this on a phone is tortuous :p Who are these korean protoss players that Rogue is facing offline which aren't good enough to make the big offline events? That was maybe a thing in the Kespa era but nowadays korean Protoss players that are still active are able to make the big offline events. Creator and Zoun are probably the 'worst' ones in recent years and Serral was facing both in offline events. Ever heard of legendary Korean Protoss players like Hurricane, Patience, Super, Yeri, JYP, Dandy, Billowy, YB? Just from some quick search on Aligulac with filters of offline Korean Protoss Rogue has played against since 2017 Ah, I see I forgot GSL qualifiers are offline and there are some no-names in there. Hurricane though when he still played, faced and beat Serral at IEM Katowice (2019?) so he's not a good example There are people thinking Serral's 90 offline matches against Korean Protoss is not enough sample size, and there are people thinking Hurricane's one bo3 win over Serral is enough sample size. ssmple size for what? Like Fango said, it was just a comment about how Hurricane doesn't deserve to be listed among the other players as some throwaway player as he was pretty legit (Patience probably doesn't either he made a HSC finals) Patience defeated Zest to win that HSC, I know because I am a Patience fanboi. On February 27 2024 18:52 RPR_Tempest wrote: Agreed that Rogue might have the all-time greatest career, but isn't the all-time greatest player.
Apart from the Bo7 thing, he felt like a guy that was real good and just happened to win. He never felt, like, above the rest of the pack. I think the biggest knock against Rogue's GOAT case is that there was never any point in his career that he felt like the best player in the world. The guy you point to and say "He's favoured against anybody." Just a really weird lack of aura most likely caused by his lack of consistency. I think he was the favourite after winning the GSL to win the World Championsship and he did. I don't really know if aura counts for anything, what if everyone is just wrong about a person? For instance, many called this guy a patch zerg, abuser, or simply lucky. But being the most consistent player in bo7's means that this is just all bullshit. Stephano had the aura, but how much did he really win. I dno, I just think many people hated Rogue, because they did not understand him, he's a super hard worker and he is obviously intelligent. On February 28 2024 01:03 Balnazza wrote:On February 28 2024 00:45 Regisko wrote: I can't accept any result except of Life being top-3 (probably 2nd), and Serral being outside top-3. Then you can skip the rest of this list. Not only did Mizenhauer on multiple occasion state that Life won't be on it, but there is a 100% guarantee that Serral will atleast be in the Top 2. Even if you somehow think he isn't in the Top 3, not putting him in the Top 10 would be almost as ridiculous as thinking a convicted cheater should even be in the discussion of being the GREATEST (not best) of All Time. Does greatest mean that you have to be virtuous? if so, Fruitdealer can be the GOAT for winning for his family, or Duckdeok, because that guy seems really nice. Stephano has no aura, I don't know what you are talking about. He was the best foreigner at the time but at no point was him considered clear cut best player or best Zerg in the world. He could hang around with top Korean players, that's the about the highest praised you could say about a foreigner at the time. You also don't seem to understand the amount of damage Life caused for Korean SC2 pro scene. What he did was probably not that terrible on paper from outsider perspective(fixing a couple maps in inconsequential matches), but the outcome of it tipped the scale and eventually caused or at least greatly accelerate the collapse of SC2 pro scene in Korea. There's a reason why everyone in Korea hates Life with a passion. If you make a list of "the most gifted players in SC2 history", then Life could probably gets a nod. But you won't find him on any serious GOAT list. It doesn't matter what you call it, gifted, best or greatest. I don't mind that Mizen is not putting Life on the list, it depends how you look at it. If it is an award, then probably Life shouldn't be on the list. I wouldn't want Life to receive a medal for his GOATness as an ex. But if you look at it as an historian, then it is extremely disingenious to not include him. If you look at one of the greatest military leaders in history, then you get a guy who made piles of skulls for his enemies to see, this does not change the fact that he was the greatest military leader.
On February 29 2024 06:41 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2024 05:15 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 29 2024 05:07 ejozl wrote:Rogue has this crazy bo7 record. But how do the stats look, if we just look at every finals? ex. TaeJa has incredible winrate in finals, but many were probably bo5's, I'd be interested to see this. On February 28 2024 08:30 Charoisaur wrote:On February 28 2024 04:08 Nasigil wrote:On February 28 2024 01:48 Charoisaur wrote:On February 28 2024 01:01 Nasigil wrote:On February 28 2024 00:37 Charoisaur wrote:On February 28 2024 00:32 WombaT wrote:On February 28 2024 00:13 Fango wrote: [quote] Because none of Rogue's championships were in the online era, except one GSL that was offline anyway. His legendary run was 2017-18, he then won the 2020 WC and GSLs in 19, 20, 21, and 22.
You can read in the article that Rogue had an almost Serral -like winrate Vs top protoss players offline. Which accounts for almost every relavent event. Even adjusting for including online (which includes mostly irrelevant tournaments) his winrate is still 66% from 2017 onwards against protoss.
I don't know where you're getting this idea of sub-50% from.
I’ve been noodling away on Aligulac, bemoaning my lack of a desktop PC in lieu of a phone! I’m unsure where 50% is coming from :S Anyway picking an arbitrary cutoff, January 1st 2017, offline only, South Korean opposition: - Serral is [i]72–35[\i] (67.29%) in games and 27–8 (77.14%) in matches.
- Rogue is 147–76 (65.92%) in games and 52–21 (71.23%) in matches.
Bear in mind that Serral is only playing Korean Toss players good enough to make the big offline events, where Rogue has more opportunity to play the lesser Korean Toss in early GSL rounds. Also, as per my previous stat dump, the Covid-induced offline premier period really makes it difficult to filter easily to do a direct Premier tournament comparison. Filtering for offline online cuts out some big, big online tournaments, but dropping the filter introduces a bunch of way less prestigious tournaments. Even on that data, with the aforementioned caveats Serral is still ahead, and I’d wager he’d be even further ahead if we’re counting premier online tournaments. Rogue’s numbers bear out that he is a ZvP monster, just Serral is [i]the ZvP monster. I just hope someone reads this and my previous stats dump as my god trying to do this on a phone is tortuous :p Who are these korean protoss players that Rogue is facing offline which aren't good enough to make the big offline events? That was maybe a thing in the Kespa era but nowadays korean Protoss players that are still active are able to make the big offline events. Creator and Zoun are probably the 'worst' ones in recent years and Serral was facing both in offline events. Ever heard of legendary Korean Protoss players like Hurricane, Patience, Super, Yeri, JYP, Dandy, Billowy, YB? Just from some quick search on Aligulac with filters of offline Korean Protoss Rogue has played against since 2017 Ah, I see I forgot GSL qualifiers are offline and there are some no-names in there. Hurricane though when he still played, faced and beat Serral at IEM Katowice (2019?) so he's not a good example There are people thinking Serral's 90 offline matches against Korean Protoss is not enough sample size, and there are people thinking Hurricane's one bo3 win over Serral is enough sample size. ssmple size for what? Like Fango said, it was just a comment about how Hurricane doesn't deserve to be listed among the other players as some throwaway player as he was pretty legit (Patience probably doesn't either he made a HSC finals) Patience defeated Zest to win that HSC, I know because I am a Patience fanboi. On February 27 2024 18:52 RPR_Tempest wrote: Agreed that Rogue might have the all-time greatest career, but isn't the all-time greatest player.
Apart from the Bo7 thing, he felt like a guy that was real good and just happened to win. He never felt, like, above the rest of the pack. I think the biggest knock against Rogue's GOAT case is that there was never any point in his career that he felt like the best player in the world. The guy you point to and say "He's favoured against anybody." Just a really weird lack of aura most likely caused by his lack of consistency. I think he was the favourite after winning the GSL to win the World Championsship and he did. I don't really know if aura counts for anything, what if everyone is just wrong about a person? For instance, many called this guy a patch zerg, abuser, or simply lucky. But being the most consistent player in bo7's means that this is just all bullshit. Stephano had the aura, but how much did he really win. I dno, I just think many people hated Rogue, because they did not understand him, he's a super hard worker and he is obviously intelligent. On February 28 2024 01:03 Balnazza wrote:On February 28 2024 00:45 Regisko wrote: I can't accept any result except of Life being top-3 (probably 2nd), and Serral being outside top-3. Then you can skip the rest of this list. Not only did Mizenhauer on multiple occasion state that Life won't be on it, but there is a 100% guarantee that Serral will atleast be in the Top 2. Even if you somehow think he isn't in the Top 3, not putting him in the Top 10 would be almost as ridiculous as thinking a convicted cheater should even be in the discussion of being the GREATEST (not best) of All Time. Does greatest mean that you have to be virtuous? if so we Fruitdealer can be the GOAT for winning for his family, or Duckdeok, because that guys seems really nice. Yeah, but when your greatest achievement is stealing from your fellow pros by accelerating the death of proleague and committing the equivalent of a federal crime (gambling is illegal in Korea), you're not lacking in virtue, you're just a piece of shit and the sc2 community would have been better off if he never played. Small additions: 1)For those who think "Life didn't do any damage!" the reminder that the Court itself explained that they rate the damage he caused the scene higher than his status as a minor. A freakin' Court in in Esports-Mekka South Korea said "bro, you fucked up". 2)Not sure how Kespa handles these kind of things, but another reminder that Life is not holding a World Championship Title anymore. Blizzard revoked his win. Which tbh makes me wonder if MMA actually should be considered a World Champion? I know athletes usually don't flaunt medals/wins they got like this, but just for statistic sakes it is an interesting question. + Show Spoiler + Here Blizzard leaves in the 2007 Blizzcon champion Savior. So Life is out, but Savior is in, seems pretty strange and they probably only removed Life due to pressure. In the end it doesn't matter what they say, or even what the court says, I can still disagree with it. Like I can disagree with having gambling be illegal in S-Korea. It's illegal to smoke marijuana most places, but at least in the western world, people don't really care about it. Law does not always allign with ethics, which makes sense because you change laws over time. IEM also chooses to keep Yoda as a champion, which imo is a good thing. Also if you wipe away history then you also wipe away the lessons of history.
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On March 02 2024 16:27 Perceivere wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2024 16:17 JJH777 wrote:On March 02 2024 15:55 Perceivere wrote:On March 02 2024 14:36 Lil_nooblet wrote:On March 02 2024 04:32 Perceivere wrote:On March 02 2024 03:32 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 03:23 Balnazza wrote:On March 02 2024 03:00 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 02:10 Balnazza wrote:On March 02 2024 01:52 Charoisaur wrote: [quote] Rogue has the WC cups over Maru, Maru has the Starleague wins during the Kespa era over Rogue which were more difficult to win than any tournament Rogue won. Discounting Maru's latest GSL wins seems weird considering Rogue won GSLs in 2021 and 2022 when they were also way easier to win than during 2018 If you compare Marus run through OSL and Rogues through Katowice 2020 - are you seriously saying Marus run was clearly so much harder that you put that OSL far above Katowice? Feels like Rogue had to atleast win against double the amount of S-class players compared to Maru, who actually had a pretty easy run until the semifinals (and then finished impressive against Inno and Rain ofc). It's not only about the specific path of players you faced but also about the general field of players. The problem nowadays is that the gap between the top players and the rest is so large that someone like Dark can still on a bad day beat everyone except like Serral, Clem or Maru (At DH Atlanta he actually admitted he was in poor condition in the interview before the final). If the field of players is stronger it makes it much more unlikely that something like this happens because Dark might get knocked out by a slightly less accomplished player in better form. Thus, in the latter stages of the tournament you would be basically guaranteed to only face in-shape players. Case in point: You surely agree that GSL nowadays is worth less than international events due to Serral, Clem and Reynor missing ... although there's no guarantee you'd face one of them in an international event like with herO during his DH Atlanta run. But saying that tournament was comparatively 'easy' to win and worth less would be of course dumb because he faced the most in-shape players at that event. I generally agree with you that just going through the "road" of tournaments isn't particularly useful, not a fan of it. "Ohhh, but he had such an easy road"...yes, but in the end, that guy still survived while 15, 23 or even 31 other players didn't. My point however in this case is that the level of play in Katowice 2020 wasn't bad, it was in fact enormously high (as it is usually at Katowice and Blizzcon). So outright saying an OSL in 2013 was THAT much more difficult to win than a World Cup feels odd. In fact, I still believe WCS and to a lesser extend Katowice are the two hardest tournaments to win, even at the prime of GSL. For one, and that is of course a very personal opinion, I rate weekenders higher and more difficult to win than preparation based tournaments, since coaches and the entire team structure doesn't factor in as much. But even more important: Lots of people have won a GSL. Players who you wouldn't even think about when threatened with a gun have won GSL trophies. But you are hard-pressed to find forgettable World Champions. YoDa maybe if you want to count that IEM Grand Final in Hannover (which I don't)? Genius if you count the very first BlizzCon Invitational? Polt if you are a GSL-only tryhard? Oliveira if you are a non-romantic? Again, don't get me wrong: it is an incredible feat to win GSL (or atleast it was). But so many great GSL-heavyhitters never won a World Cup, while (depending if you only mean WCS or include Katowice aswell) alot of World Champions have won a GSL.
actually no, not a lot of world champions won a GSL. PartinG didn't win one. sOs didn't win one. Reynor didn't win one. Oliveira didn't win one. Serral of course didn't win one although he never played in it. In general though I agree that world championships are worth more than a GSL but comparing across era is difficult because I value all tournaments won between 2013-2016 a lot more due to the higher number of top level players. The skill level is a different discussion entirely but imo it doesn't make sense to compare skill across eras because the players today built on the knowledge that was created by past players. People have been judging Life's talent based on too little information. Toward the end of his career, there were signs of other zergs (soO, Dark, Hydra) beginning to eclipse him, based on Aligulac. Life was the best zerg of 2015 and one game away from winning back to back Blizzcons. He was hardly being eclipsed by other zergs. Well, I specified " beginning to be eclipsed." Meaning, he was still the apparent best, but it was by no means a wide margin. Hydra, soO, Solar, and Dark were making serious gains toward the end of 2015 and start of 2016. Edit: Agh...Cross all of that out even. I already made it a point earlier that Life's wins were highly suspect because of his conduct. Meaning, they could've been match-fixed. How can anyone be certain that they weren't? Unlike throwing a win being match fixed requires both parties to participate. You're accusing not only his final opponent(s) but also people he played throughout his brackets. That seems unlikely. You're misusing the word "accusing." Unlikely or not, he drew a curtain of uncertainty around his results due to his scandal. He played against, and "defeated" countless players; to say I'm accusing all of them is absurd. That is exactly what you are doing. How can you be so ignorant of your own argument? For his wins to be questionable, his opponents need to also be corrupt. I'm surprised such a statement hasn't garnered you a ban. Your stupidity deserves one
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+ Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/IMjpaLLemMI?t=400 Here Blizzard leaves in the 2007 Blizzcon champion Savior. So Life is out, but Savior is in, seems pretty strange and they probably only removed Life due to pressure. In the end it doesn't matter what they say, or even what the court says, I can still disagree with it. Like I can disagree with having gambling be illegal in S-Korea. It's illegal to smoke marijuana most places, but at least in the western world, people don't really care about it. Law does not always allign with ethics, which makes sense because you change laws over time. IEM also chooses to keep Yoda as a champion, which imo is a good thing. Also if you wipe away history then you also wipe away the lessons of history.
Blizzard vacated Saviors title aswell officially. And sure, you can disagree with anything and have an opinion, like anyone can. My opinion for example is that Life is an overrated player who owns his entire legacy to his matchfixing, otherwise you would know him today as the guy Serral constantly wipes the floor with. In the end though, this isn't about opinion, it is about facts. And the fact is that he is an idiot who threw games for money, causing gigantic damage. Done. Not much else to say about it.
As an addendum though: Life isn't "erased" from history, you can clearly see who won the 2014 World Championship Finals at BlizzCon - he just doesn't hold the title anymore. Which aligns with the roman system of "Damnatio Memoriae". This was a harsh punishment that could fell upon traitors, in which case they would get "erased" from public knowledge. Like their names would be carved out from stone plates and stuff. But the funny thing about the Damnatio Memoriae is, that we always know, 2000 years later, who it was about. Because the romans wanted it that way. Everyone should know who did something so bad their memory got "erased".
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Was Life actually a minor when he threw the games? Looking at his birthday on Liquipedia (January 1997) and when he threw games (2015 onwards) it looks like he would have been 18. Maybe a minor in South Korea but not, say, America.
I will say it does strike me as very silly to believe that, if you take his accomplishments on face value (ignore matchfixing), Life at the very least does not outweigh Rain. You would be extremely extremely hard pressed to have found someone in 2015 when Rain retired to have believed he was a greater player than Life.
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Damn it's really too bad that even though Life's WC win is revoked, he still beat Taeja, and we'll never have gotten to see Taeja potentially win a WC.
Giving the win to MMA also wouldn't quite make sense because then you could say we should look at Taeja vs MMA, but then what about the player Life beat before Taeja, what if they beat Taeja and advanced to the finals, etc.
But, at the least we can say that MMA got the highest placement that tournament, and Taeja and MMA's opponent got 2nd/3rd.
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Northern Ireland20943 Posts
On March 03 2024 13:50 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Damn it's really too bad that even though Life's WC win is revoked, he still beat Taeja, and we'll never have gotten to see Taeja potentially win a WC.
Giving the win to MMA also wouldn't quite make sense because then you could say we should look at Taeja vs MMA, but then what about the player Life beat before Taeja, what if they beat Taeja and advanced to the finals, etc.
But, at the least we can say that MMA got the highest placement that tournament, and Taeja and MMA's opponent got 2nd/3rd. I’m not a big fan of the next bloke or blokette being awarded the vacated title, given Life didn’t actually cheat to win it.
And in general trying to fix it and put justice in after the fact is fraught with problems too, as you’ve outlined. Plus even if you did come up with the perfect way to do it, x person was still denied the glory at the time, lifting that trophy and being able to go into upcoming tournaments being able to say they were the de facto World Champ.
It can get really farcical, one particular year of the Tour de France was so fraught with cheating that first it was Armstrong stripped of the win, then the person it dropped to (Jan Ullrich iirc), then he got found guilty of doping and was stripped and it given to the next one down. This continued over time to have it so that the 7th/8th original placer is now the Tour champ for that particular year. But really they aren’t because it starts being ridiculous. I might be misremembering facets of this but the vague principle still stands.
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I don't understand what's there to talk so much about Life.
He was an extremely talented player, arguably one of the most talented ever to touch this game. Judging by how his rival Maru developed in LotV, no reason to doubt why Life wouldn't be as successful if he kept playing (a smarter and more aggressive Reynor is a good description, I think). But he matchfixed and participated in gambling, which is inexcusable in competitive Esports. He had terrible impact on the scene and was rightfully punished by it. You could still find his VODs on Youtube and his page on Liquipedia, so he's not really "erased" from history per se. We could have a civil discussion of how good Life could be if matchfix didn't happen, but that's for another thread, and no one will or should put a cheater on any GOAT list, plain and simple.
Can we just end the Life discussion and leave this thread to Rogue, a actual rightful GOAT contender?
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A 13-1 bo7 record is bonkers. I love Rogue because we never know if we're gonna get a guy who bombs out in the ro32 or whether he locks in for a tournament and is untouchable.
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By the way, how will Miz keep up the suspense once the second to last article is released? Everybody will know who #1 is once #2 is revealed, unless there is still something up his sleeves. Or will we get both at the same time, maybe in a single article?
(we need 20 more posts here to keep numbers steadily increasing across rankings..!)
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On March 04 2024 17:10 Gilgamesh_ wrote: By the way, how will Miz keep up the suspense once the second to last article is released? Everybody will know who #1 is once #2 is revealed, unless there is still something up his sleeves. Or will we get both at the same time, maybe in a single article?
(we need 20 more posts here to keep numbers steadily increasing across rankings..!)
The sensible thing to do IMO would be to delay until both articles are written, and release them at the same time.
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On March 02 2024 16:27 Perceivere wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2024 16:17 JJH777 wrote:On March 02 2024 15:55 Perceivere wrote:On March 02 2024 14:36 Lil_nooblet wrote:On March 02 2024 04:32 Perceivere wrote:On March 02 2024 03:32 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 03:23 Balnazza wrote:On March 02 2024 03:00 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 02:10 Balnazza wrote:On March 02 2024 01:52 Charoisaur wrote: [quote] Rogue has the WC cups over Maru, Maru has the Starleague wins during the Kespa era over Rogue which were more difficult to win than any tournament Rogue won. Discounting Maru's latest GSL wins seems weird considering Rogue won GSLs in 2021 and 2022 when they were also way easier to win than during 2018 If you compare Marus run through OSL and Rogues through Katowice 2020 - are you seriously saying Marus run was clearly so much harder that you put that OSL far above Katowice? Feels like Rogue had to atleast win against double the amount of S-class players compared to Maru, who actually had a pretty easy run until the semifinals (and then finished impressive against Inno and Rain ofc). It's not only about the specific path of players you faced but also about the general field of players. The problem nowadays is that the gap between the top players and the rest is so large that someone like Dark can still on a bad day beat everyone except like Serral, Clem or Maru (At DH Atlanta he actually admitted he was in poor condition in the interview before the final). If the field of players is stronger it makes it much more unlikely that something like this happens because Dark might get knocked out by a slightly less accomplished player in better form. Thus, in the latter stages of the tournament you would be basically guaranteed to only face in-shape players. Case in point: You surely agree that GSL nowadays is worth less than international events due to Serral, Clem and Reynor missing ... although there's no guarantee you'd face one of them in an international event like with herO during his DH Atlanta run. But saying that tournament was comparatively 'easy' to win and worth less would be of course dumb because he faced the most in-shape players at that event. I generally agree with you that just going through the "road" of tournaments isn't particularly useful, not a fan of it. "Ohhh, but he had such an easy road"...yes, but in the end, that guy still survived while 15, 23 or even 31 other players didn't. My point however in this case is that the level of play in Katowice 2020 wasn't bad, it was in fact enormously high (as it is usually at Katowice and Blizzcon). So outright saying an OSL in 2013 was THAT much more difficult to win than a World Cup feels odd. In fact, I still believe WCS and to a lesser extend Katowice are the two hardest tournaments to win, even at the prime of GSL. For one, and that is of course a very personal opinion, I rate weekenders higher and more difficult to win than preparation based tournaments, since coaches and the entire team structure doesn't factor in as much. But even more important: Lots of people have won a GSL. Players who you wouldn't even think about when threatened with a gun have won GSL trophies. But you are hard-pressed to find forgettable World Champions. YoDa maybe if you want to count that IEM Grand Final in Hannover (which I don't)? Genius if you count the very first BlizzCon Invitational? Polt if you are a GSL-only tryhard? Oliveira if you are a non-romantic? Again, don't get me wrong: it is an incredible feat to win GSL (or atleast it was). But so many great GSL-heavyhitters never won a World Cup, while (depending if you only mean WCS or include Katowice aswell) alot of World Champions have won a GSL.
actually no, not a lot of world champions won a GSL. PartinG didn't win one. sOs didn't win one. Reynor didn't win one. Oliveira didn't win one. Serral of course didn't win one although he never played in it. In general though I agree that world championships are worth more than a GSL but comparing across era is difficult because I value all tournaments won between 2013-2016 a lot more due to the higher number of top level players. The skill level is a different discussion entirely but imo it doesn't make sense to compare skill across eras because the players today built on the knowledge that was created by past players. People have been judging Life's talent based on too little information. Toward the end of his career, there were signs of other zergs (soO, Dark, Hydra) beginning to eclipse him, based on Aligulac. Life was the best zerg of 2015 and one game away from winning back to back Blizzcons. He was hardly being eclipsed by other zergs. Well, I specified " beginning to be eclipsed." Meaning, he was still the apparent best, but it was by no means a wide margin. Hydra, soO, Solar, and Dark were making serious gains toward the end of 2015 and start of 2016. Edit: Agh...Cross all of that out even. I already made it a point earlier that Life's wins were highly suspect because of his conduct. Meaning, they could've been match-fixed. How can anyone be certain that they weren't? Unlike throwing a win being match fixed requires both parties to participate. You're accusing not only his final opponent(s) but also people he played throughout his brackets. That seems unlikely. You're misusing the word "accusing." Unlikely or not, he drew a curtain of uncertainty around his results due to his scandal. He played against, and "defeated" countless players; to say I'm accusing all of them is absurd.
Think about the logic of paying both parties to fix a game of Starcraft. The only benefit(s) you'd be able to get from paying the winning party is being able to say "make sure to punish these specific mistakes", and technically also to make sure the match isn't already fixed in the opposite direction. If you consider how easy it is to make a game ending mistake in Starcraft you'll probably realize that no one would take twice the risk of getting found out, and also pay out twice the money just for that. A misclick or an untimely supply block can be enough.
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On March 03 2024 22:55 Nasigil wrote: I don't understand what's there to talk so much about Life.
He was an extremely talented player, arguably one of the most talented ever to touch this game. Judging by how his rival Maru developed in LotV, no reason to doubt why Life wouldn't be as successful if he kept playing (a smarter and more aggressive Reynor is a good description, I think). But he matchfixed and participated in gambling, which is inexcusable in competitive Esports. He had terrible impact on the scene and was rightfully punished by it. You could still find his VODs on Youtube and his page on Liquipedia, so he's not really "erased" from history per se. We could have a civil discussion of how good Life could be if matchfix didn't happen, but that's for another thread, and no one will or should put a cheater on any GOAT list, plain and simple.
Can we just end the Life discussion and leave this thread to Rogue, a actual rightful GOAT contender?
Smarter? Doesn't seem particular smart to me given his decisions ...
Anyway, think it's time to move on to #2
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Prediction: Dark to come in at #2
Then Maru #1 to be released alongside a sister piece for "The elephant in the room" decrying the state of competition since the departure of Kespa
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On March 05 2024 07:12 Zealos wrote:Prediction: Dark to come in at #2 Then Maru #1 to be released alongside a sister piece for "The elephant in the room" decrying the state of competition since the departure of Kespa
At this point I think the Elephant left the room again, doing something more fun like spraying water on people
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On March 05 2024 18:00 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2024 07:12 Zealos wrote:Prediction: Dark to come in at #2 Then Maru #1 to be released alongside a sister piece for "The elephant in the room" decrying the state of competition since the departure of Kespa At this point I think the Elephant left the room again, doing something more fun like spraying water on people Thats sorta where I was going with my post
Elephant came, conquered, and only once he left did the foreigners have any hope of winning : D
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Ok, I'm posting this mainly to keep the record (each article more posts than the last). What to say about rogue? Dunno ... hope he comes back!
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On March 05 2024 23:47 tincer wrote: Ok, I'm posting this mainly to keep the record (each article more posts than the last). What to say about rogue? Dunno ... hope he comes back!
I hope so too...
Also wow, it's cool that each one gets longer! Hoping the next 2 get really long, it's probably safe to say so! Though it might be good if the #1 article doesn't come out too much longer than #2. Then most people might finish fighting in the #2 article xD
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On March 06 2024 00:02 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2024 23:47 tincer wrote: Ok, I'm posting this mainly to keep the record (each article more posts than the last). What to say about rogue? Dunno ... hope he comes back! I hope so too... Also wow, it's cool that each one gets longer! Hoping the next 2 get really long, it's probably safe to say so! Though it might be good if the #1 article doesn't come out too much longer than #2. Then most people might finish fighting in the #2 article xD
You just need to post something controversial, like MSC was an awesome unit and should be brought back! Change my mind
To stay on topic: I love how Korean Zergs (mainly Dark and Rogue) are the bad boys of SC2.
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France12615 Posts
Yeah I'm pretty sure that the final articles will be posted at the same time, since it's 99% guaranteed the two remaining players are Serral and Maru, so only posting #2 would spoil #1 immediately (sorry Dark fans).
As for Rogue, it's too bad he had to go to the military so soon, he might have prevented Maru from winning those 2 "online era" GSL, because he somehow finds a way to beat Maru even when isn't the favorite to do so
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