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On June 01 2012 20:19 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 01:41 Garmer wrote: SC2 will last much more than 2-3 years, remembers there are still two expansions, plus the game won't die before at least 2-3 years after LOTV The thing about expansions is that in the competitive sense, they will not be "expansions", they will essentially be new games. So while the title "Starcraft 2" will technically last longer than 2-3 years, each new expansion will be a hard reset on design, balance, overall features, everything. You won't have one game lasting 9-10 years, you will have 3 games lasting 3 years at best. In order for the game to truly develop, and players to show high level of play, the game needs to remain virtually the same for a long period of time (the constant patching alone is problematic, let alone the drastic changes in expansions). Expansions will not help competitive SC2 last longer, if anything they'll hurt it. Blizzard is pretty much the only party that will benefit from SC2 expansions.
Switching out WoL for HotS looks like it'll be an improvement though, if only a mild one, so I kind of don't mind.
There wouldn't be an SC2 scene now if the game was unpatched. Terran was ludicrously imbalanced, and the game was designed around tiny maps, so when people moved to bigger maps for macro games, Zerg couldn't scout at all because the overlord moved at 1MPH for like two years. Blizzard's continued work on the game has (for the most part) been an improvement, because otherwise it'd be SCV Marine All-ins every fucking game like it was in GSL 3.
On June 01 2012 22:52 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 01:41 Garmer wrote: SC2 will last much more than 2-3 years, remembers there are still two expansions, plus the game won't die before at least 2-3 years after LOTV Yes, which is called artifical longevity. If it weren't for HotS coming out so soon then SC2 would dwindle very fast. Good thing the beta is only a few weeks away.
I think this is one of the reasons SC2 fans get heated in these flame wars; the idea that we don't really like the game.
On June 02 2012 00:39 corumjhaelen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 00:39 kemoryan wrote:On June 01 2012 22:37 Jumperer wrote: Right now I find SC2 fun but not as fun as BW. For SC2. I thought the game would be easy but it's not. The concept of micro, macro, and mindgame is all still there....even at a lower skill ceiling. BW was a lucky accident that has much more depth and flair because the units are designed to be more exciting and powerful. I prefer BW because it's a superior game. SC2 disappoints me because the units in the game are uncreative compared to BW. Why the fuck would they remove exciting units like reaver and vulture? Why would they remove mutalisk stacking/micro? Why did they make hydra that can shoot ground only and call it roach? Why in the world would they make a marine2 and call it marauder????? Units like reavers and vultures are what made BW so fun to watch and they remove it for no apparent reason. stupid idiots.
I think they asked 100 people in the company to make sc2. They couldn't decide on the design for most if not all units so they just "average" out everyone's idea and so as a result we get nothing but bland units because it's the only way that they can get people to agree with it. It's a safe way to design a video game. I'm sure someone at blizzard right now would make sc2 as good as bw but his opinion is probably not getting through simply because there is a committee. BW was clearly made by a group of genius so they don't have to cave to other people's approval. I know many game designers IRL and most of them are fucking retarded when it come to video game designs itself. Yes, they are good at the technical part but that's about it. Most of these people are not what we call "gamers" they are nerds that happen to play video games.
I look at HOTS units and I think they are even more retardedly designed than the units in sc2. Hell, they are even removing units from sc2 to make room for some units in HOTS. what the fuck?
don't get me wrong, sc2 is still a pretty good game for today's standard(modern warfare 2.5 anyone?). But comparing sc2 to bw is like comparing mainstream music from today to the 60s or 70s.
P.S. I'm still glad that SC2 is a go-to-game sport for nerds. but just like sport fans in real life, the fans usually don't understand what the fuck is really going on in the game. So honestly it doesn't matter if the game is boring or not because the viewers can't tell what is good or bad. For most people, SC2 is their first e-sport game so of course they are going to love it. It's kind of like how FF7 is many people's favorite RPG game even though the game is shit. They've never played any RPG before so how can they know if it's good or bad? I was nodding with approval to everything you said til you mentioned FF7. Now I'm just confused I had trouble admitting it, but he has a very good point.
FF7 is the best game ever when you're 15 and don't realize the plot makes no goddamn sense, and the Materia system is an amazing character customization tool, with only FF Tactics surpassing it in any RPG I've seen before or since.
A better comparison might be Final Fantasy IX. That game seems to have aged well, but how much you liked it depended a lot on whether you'd played Final Fantasy VI first. But I'm a Suikoden II hipster, anyway.
I'm hoping that by the time LotV comes out, it includes another unit or two like the oracle, and the comparison starts being Mega Man 2 vs Mega Man X
On June 02 2012 01:12 MicrowaveMess wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 22:37 Jumperer wrote: For most people, SC2 is their first e-sport game so of course they are going to love it. It's kind of like how FF7 is many people's favorite RPG game even though the game is shit. They've never played any RPG before so how can they know if it's good or bad? Epic post king dt you are right on the money. I like to call that the "Dane Cook" effect. I have young reletives who never saw stand up comedy until they saw Dane Cook. Having no one to compare to they thought he was the funniest comedian ever. When I tried to show them Eddie Murphy Raw they refused to watch it because it was "too old" and "he looks stupid in a purple suit"
I watched BW for years, and got like 500 games on ICCUP (while staying in E because I suuuucked, and I like SC2 T_T
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On June 02 2012 03:13 AsymptoticClimax wrote: A view of bw vs sc2 In terms of Spectatorship from a sc2 player/spectator: He raises a fair point about SC2 not being up to standard of BW and fair enough. I think Blizzard are going to have to make some risks and drastic changes to sc2 in the up and coming 2 expansions to make it at the same level BW is in terms of aesthetics. and remember bw has been out what? 13 years? and arguably became an esports around 3rd year of release. (I think). Starcraft 2 is only in it's second year. give it time and let it mature I seriously hope sc2 can live up to it's predecessors name because so far it's not although it is a great game. So you say SC2 right now is bad but we still should watch/play it cause someday it might be good?. i really never get this "give it time" thing :D
SC2 wasn't build up from scratch like BW.
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Edit: This whole post gets quoted down the line if anyone's curious, but I don't think it was productive.
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When SC2 fans talk about it getting better, they don't mean that it sucks now and they're holding out for a hero. SC2 has gotten better than it was in 2010, significantly, and SC2 fans feel that it will be better still.
Nope, players got better at the game. The only thing that got better in SC2 is balance, which is not really important.
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On June 02 2012 18:54 corumjhaelen wrote:Show nested quote + When SC2 fans talk about it getting better, they don't mean that it sucks now and they're holding out for a hero. SC2 has gotten better than it was in 2010, significantly, and SC2 fans feel that it will be better still.
Nope, players got better at the game. The only thing that got better in SC2 is balance, which is not really important.
The most important feature to me that was actually was remedied in sc2 was the "find match" button although it was never a necessity but merely a wishful thinking. Sc2 is really stale in comparison to broodwar and that's still stand's truth today . Banelings ? boring . Mothership ? screw that give me my arbiters any time . Stalkers ? bull shit Dumb dragoons x100 any day than those weak spineless stalker at least dragoons are willing to take the bullet and die honourably compared to stalkers who just blink away from battle because they suck.
I saw most of the IPL highlights and what can I say rolling banelings in to scv must be interesting because who is that commentator ? Cat Pajamas right ? was screaming omg omg omg over such a interesting move by the other player . Nope I don't want to deal with starcraft any more if anything playing torchlight and not reading about anything to do with sc2 will make my days more better.
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On June 02 2012 03:49 Ribbon wrote: Switching out WoL for HotS looks like it'll be an improvement though, if only a mild one, so I kind of don't mind.
Even if it is - and there is NO way anyone can guess it will be at this point - it doesn't matter. It'll be a completely new game to learn with new units, new builds, new strategies, and everything the players learned and new so far will be pretty much meaningless.
RTS games naturally grow and improve over time, because how good the game is essentially depends on the extent to which the players have mastered it. They can't master it if it keeps changing all the time. A new game is always worse than an old one in the sense that it will inevitably produce worse gameplay for a long time. And just when HoTS reaches the level of WoL, they will put out yet another expansion and you have to go through the same process again.
On June 02 2012 03:49 Ribbon wrote: There wouldn't be an SC2 scene now if the game was unpatched. Terran was ludicrously imbalanced, and the game was designed around tiny maps, so when people moved to bigger maps for macro games, Zerg couldn't scout at all because the overlord moved at 1MPH for like two years. Blizzard's continued work on the game has (for the most part) been an improvement, because otherwise it'd be SCV Marine All-ins every fucking game like it was in GSL 3.
Game was perfectly playable since after the Khaydarin removal, and there was no reason to patch other than to appease the masses and provide free instant gratification to players whose' races were struggling for a month or two.
In SC2, Blizzard does all the work for the players that BoxeR, oov, Savior, Bisu etc had to do for their races in BW (by improving in skill and coming up with original solutions and tricks to overcome strategic difficulties). In SC2, if your race sucks, Blizzard will give you a new toy to play with and make another race suck for a while so you can feel good for a few months. -_-
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FF6 and Chrono Trigger are the best RPGs I've ever played. Both had stunning plots, deep characters and amazing gameplay, something we don't see anymore in newer games.
About SC2, there is nothing left to say, it's just a bad game and will die few years after the last expansion. About eSports, LoL is taking over and no one can stop it. About BW, best RTS ever made, killed by Savior and Blizzard.
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this was definitely an eye opener, he seems like one of the people who really grew Korean E-Sports back in the early days before noobs like me even knew about Starcraft.
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On June 02 2012 21:35 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 18:54 corumjhaelen wrote: When SC2 fans talk about it getting better, they don't mean that it sucks now and they're holding out for a hero. SC2 has gotten better than it was in 2010, significantly, and SC2 fans feel that it will be better still.
Nope, players got better at the game. The only thing that got better in SC2 is balance, which is not really important. The most important feature to me that was actually was remedied in sc2 was the "find match" button although it was never a necessity but merely a wishful thinking. Sc2 is really stale in comparison to broodwar and that's still stand's truth today . Banelings ? boring . Mothership ? screw that give me my arbiters any time . Stalkers ? bull shit Dumb dragoons x100 any day than those weak spineless stalker at least dragoons are willing to take the bullet and die honourably compared to stalkers who just blink away from battle because they suck. I saw most of the IPL highlights and what can I say rolling banelings in to scv must be interesting because who is that commentator ? Cat Pajamas right ? was screaming omg omg omg over such a interesting move by the other player . Nope I don't want to deal with starcraft any more if anything playing torchlight and not reading about anything to do with sc2 will make my days more better.
And this is why we had the argument about objectivity/subjectivity in the first place...
Seriously, a comment like this is one of the most irritating thing ever. You find SC2 boring and BW more fun. Fine, but don't state it as a fact because it's just your and BW's forum goers opinion. There are many more people who find SC2 more fun and this kind of post would only draw a flame war. If you hate that much, keep it to your self and go post on BW only forum that is not in TL. And don't say don't come to BW section because now PL is also a hybrid league so there's a lot related news in BW section that people might be curious to read.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
Excellent interview, good perspective!
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On June 03 2012 01:09 fabiano wrote: FF6 and Chrono Trigger are the best RPGs I've ever played. Both had stunning plots, deep characters and amazing gameplay, something we don't see anymore in newer games.
FF6 is honestly pretty overrated, though I wasn't a kid when I first played it. It's good, but it's not THAT good.
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On June 03 2012 02:17 Veldril wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 21:35 Sawamura wrote:On June 02 2012 18:54 corumjhaelen wrote: When SC2 fans talk about it getting better, they don't mean that it sucks now and they're holding out for a hero. SC2 has gotten better than it was in 2010, significantly, and SC2 fans feel that it will be better still.
Nope, players got better at the game. The only thing that got better in SC2 is balance, which is not really important. The most important feature to me that was actually was remedied in sc2 was the "find match" button although it was never a necessity but merely a wishful thinking. Sc2 is really stale in comparison to broodwar and that's still stand's truth today . Banelings ? boring . Mothership ? screw that give me my arbiters any time . Stalkers ? bull shit Dumb dragoons x100 any day than those weak spineless stalker at least dragoons are willing to take the bullet and die honourably compared to stalkers who just blink away from battle because they suck. I saw most of the IPL highlights and what can I say rolling banelings in to scv must be interesting because who is that commentator ? Cat Pajamas right ? was screaming omg omg omg over such a interesting move by the other player . Nope I don't want to deal with starcraft any more if anything playing torchlight and not reading about anything to do with sc2 will make my days more better. And this is why we had the argument about objectivity/subjectivity in the first place... Seriously, a comment like this is one of the most irritating thing ever. You find SC2 boring and BW more fun. Fine, but don't state it as a fact because it's just your and BW's forum goers opinion. There are many more people who find SC2 more fun and this kind of post would only draw a flame war. If you hate that much, keep it to your self and go post on BW only forum that is not in TL. And don't say don't come to BW section because now PL is also a hybrid league so there's a lot related news in BW section that people might be curious to read.
I will do whatever I want on the internet neither you or anyone is going to stop me.
User was warned for this post
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If SC2 is so great, why are people taking so much effort right now into changing it? The FRB initiative for example. And Barrin's post on that links several other threads that have been spawned over the last two years. Threads that compare SC2 to a game that is 12 years old and a pro scene that has existed since 2002.
If you were a designer of a product, any product, let's say a car, it would be pretty freaking humiliating if people kept coming back to you drawing comparisons to the old car, a car that is 12 years old. It would seem even foolish to say that people still like the old car better since they kept modding it and tweaking it for the last 12 years. Would it not be possible to take a first hand look at what those modifications did, and send those ideas to your R&D department?
Yet, that's precisely what a lot of BW fans think Blizzard has done. Blizzard seems more or less oblivious to the fact that a BW scene existed, or what components of BW made BW great. Hell, when SC2 was announced, it was in freaking 2007. 2007 was the year Bisu took down Saviour, and the developments since then are probably what shaped modern BW to what it was today. It's not like the BW scene didn't know what macro was yet.
I would even venture to say that custom made maps in SC2 have made much, much more significant progress to the development of its competitive scene than all the patches Blizzard have made. Would it matter nowadays if you played with patch 15 on friggin dessert oasis or steppes of war?
And with this "SC2 is leaps and bounds ahead of any other non-BW RTS", I'm going to tell you right now that there are pretty much no other RTSes that have been released in the past 5 or so years (Like CoH was released in 2006, and DoWII is pretty much more or less a rehash of that with different models). SC2's only real peer is BW, and its the only game that anyone (especially Blizzard) should really take into account when comparing standards of quality. The BW pro scene is dead, but with the way SC2 is now, people will be drawing comparisons between BW and SC2 till SC2 dies.
If SC2 fans want people to shut up about BW, then get SC2 to change or something. Write to Browder and tell him how much you hate deathballs. Stop whining about TvP imbalance and actually try and understand what the pros are trying to do , even if it involves being 20x more skillful.
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On June 03 2012 12:02 Nazza wrote: If SC2 is so great, why are people taking so much effort right now into changing it?
Because you can love a game, think it's good, and still realize it's possible for it to be better than it is?
On June 03 2012 12:02 Nazza wrote: If SC2 fans want people to shut up about BW, then get SC2 to change or something. Write to Browder and tell him how much you hate deathballs. Stop whining about TvP imbalance and actually try and understand what the pros are trying to do , even if it involves being 20x more skillful.
This is actually something more people need to do, and I really wish a lot of the anti-SC2 arguments in the BW forum were being made in the Bnet forums, where they might do some good.
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On June 03 2012 02:17 Veldril wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 21:35 Sawamura wrote:On June 02 2012 18:54 corumjhaelen wrote: When SC2 fans talk about it getting better, they don't mean that it sucks now and they're holding out for a hero. SC2 has gotten better than it was in 2010, significantly, and SC2 fans feel that it will be better still.
Nope, players got better at the game. The only thing that got better in SC2 is balance, which is not really important. The most important feature to me that was actually was remedied in sc2 was the "find match" button although it was never a necessity but merely a wishful thinking. Sc2 is really stale in comparison to broodwar and that's still stand's truth today . Banelings ? boring . Mothership ? screw that give me my arbiters any time . Stalkers ? bull shit Dumb dragoons x100 any day than those weak spineless stalker at least dragoons are willing to take the bullet and die honourably compared to stalkers who just blink away from battle because they suck. I saw most of the IPL highlights and what can I say rolling banelings in to scv must be interesting because who is that commentator ? Cat Pajamas right ? was screaming omg omg omg over such a interesting move by the other player . Nope I don't want to deal with starcraft any more if anything playing torchlight and not reading about anything to do with sc2 will make my days more better. And this is why we had the argument about objectivity/subjectivity in the first place... Seriously, a comment like this is one of the most irritating thing ever. You find SC2 boring and BW more fun. Fine, but don't state it as a fact because it's just your and BW's forum goers opinion. There are many more people who find SC2 more fun and this kind of post would only draw a flame war. If you hate that much, keep it to your self and go post on BW only forum that is not in TL. And don't say don't come to BW section because now PL is also a hybrid league so there's a lot related news in BW section that people might be curious to read. What BW only forum? Just like he can post whatever he wants, you too can choose to ignore it, it's not hard.
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On June 02 2012 03:49 Ribbon wrote:
Switching out WoL for HotS looks like it'll be an improvement though, if only a mild one, so I kind of don't mind.
There wouldn't be an SC2 scene now if the game was unpatched. Terran was ludicrously imbalanced, and the game was designed around tiny maps, so when people moved to bigger maps for macro games, Zerg couldn't scout at all because the overlord moved at 1MPH for like two years. Blizzard's continued work on the game has (for the most part) been an improvement, because otherwise it'd be SCV Marine All-ins every fucking game like it was in GSL 3.
So basically you built a pro scene around a game still in its beta stages. Definitely has nothing to do with the game being named starcraft.
On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: So? It's not trying to copy BW, it's trying to do its own thing, and it's leaps and bounds ahead of any other non-BW RTS in that regard.
Your assumption. Maybe it has something to do with Sc2 having the name starcraft in it giving rise to these thoughts. You ask us to give sc2 concessions yet you just put down other games without thought.
On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: When SC2 fans talk about it getting better, they don't mean that it sucks now and they're holding out for a hero. SC2 has gotten better than it was in 2010, significantly, and SC2 fans feel that it will be better still.
Anyday now...
On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: And even then, I was a lot more interested, excited, and hyped to be watching the last GSL finals in a hotel lobby at 7am on my vacation. Seriously this part of you changes on a weakly basis. It is inconsistent. On some weeks you say BW has no story, on others you say sc2 not at the level of BW yet, on some weeks you say Lalush explains what sc2 is missing now you say you enjoy sc2 more? Hell you didn't seem to know what moving shot was a few weeks ago.
On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: And if you think I'm retarded or whatever, that's cool. But I'm starting to realize that I'd kind of prefer MVP vs Parting to Flash vs Bisu. And I imagine you disagree
All the hype from sc2 was derived from the proscene(not casual scene) in korea. The thing is sc2 doesn't have the elements that made sc2 fun(moving shot etc). Now normally no one would give a shit BUT the name sc2 is killing BW.
On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: And the fact that HotS has the Viper (good unit) and Oracle (fucking great unit) in it isn't going to change your mind. But it makes me kind of excited!
We learn our lesson first time round, don't get overhyped because blizzard isn't what they use to be. Do you even remember the "Do you really want chat channels?" incident? Blizzard is up themselves and have lost the plot completely. Wc3 isn't even balanced and they've been trying for yrs.
On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: That BW died sucks. That it was replaced with a game you hate also sucks. Go beat up Savior. But SC2 did not kill BW, and certainly not SC2 fans. As a great man once said, we wouldn't be having this conversation if it was named starcraft 2.
On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: This is actually something more people need to do, and I really wish a lot of the anti-SC2 arguments in the BW forum were being made in the Bnet forums, where they might do some good. We tried and they don't care. How short is your memory seriously.
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On June 03 2012 13:14 TrainSamurai wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 03:49 Ribbon wrote:
Switching out WoL for HotS looks like it'll be an improvement though, if only a mild one, so I kind of don't mind.
There wouldn't be an SC2 scene now if the game was unpatched. Terran was ludicrously imbalanced, and the game was designed around tiny maps, so when people moved to bigger maps for macro games, Zerg couldn't scout at all because the overlord moved at 1MPH for like two years. Blizzard's continued work on the game has (for the most part) been an improvement, because otherwise it'd be SCV Marine All-ins every fucking game like it was in GSL 3. So basically you built a pro scene around a game still in its beta stages. Definitely has nothing to do with the game being named starcraft. Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: So? It's not trying to copy BW, it's trying to do its own thing, and it's leaps and bounds ahead of any other non-BW RTS in that regard.
Your assumption. Maybe it has something to do with Sc2 having the name starcraft in it giving rise to these thoughts. You ask us to give sc2 concessions yet you just put down other games without thought. Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: When SC2 fans talk about it getting better, they don't mean that it sucks now and they're holding out for a hero. SC2 has gotten better than it was in 2010, significantly, and SC2 fans feel that it will be better still. Anyday now... Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: And even then, I was a lot more interested, excited, and hyped to be watching the last GSL finals in a hotel lobby at 7am on my vacation. Seriously this part of you changes on a weakly basis. It is inconsistent. On some weeks you say BW has no story, on others you say sc2 not at the level of BW yet, on some weeks you say Lalush explains what sc2 is missing now you say you enjoy sc2 more? Hell you didn't seem to know what moving shot was a few weeks ago. Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: And if you think I'm retarded or whatever, that's cool. But I'm starting to realize that I'd kind of prefer MVP vs Parting to Flash vs Bisu. And I imagine you disagree All the hype from sc2 was derived from the proscene(not casual scene) in korea. The thing is sc2 doesn't have the elements that made sc2 fun(moving shot etc). Now normally no one would give a shit BUT the name sc2 is killing BW. Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: And the fact that HotS has the Viper (good unit) and Oracle (fucking great unit) in it isn't going to change your mind. But it makes me kind of excited! We learn our lesson first time round, don't get overhyped because blizzard isn't what they use to be. Do you even remember the "Do you really want chat channels?" incident? Blizzard is up themselves and have lost the plot completely. Wc3 isn't even balanced and they've been trying for yrs. Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: That BW died sucks. That it was replaced with a game you hate also sucks. Go beat up Savior. But SC2 did not kill BW, and certainly not SC2 fans. As a great man once said, we wouldn't be having this conversation if it was named starcraft 2. Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: This is actually something more people need to do, and I really wish a lot of the anti-SC2 arguments in the BW forum were being made in the Bnet forums, where they might do some good. We tried and they don't care. How short is your memory seriously.
Samurai, "If you see a troll post, report and ignore."
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Fuck Flash, fuck Jaedong, fuck TBLS, and fuck KeSPA. We don't need any of them
Don't put the we in to the me you can count me out of your propaganda .
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I originally wrote a really angry response, but then I deleted it and ran in place for a few minutes while listening to the Space Jam OST instead! Now I'm calm, and instead of saying something that might get me banned, I instead increased the fabulousness of my abs!
Anyway, I like both games, and foreign BW is going to be awesome and I intend to help build it the end.
Actually, you know what? I feel better about all this after using my anger productively. Let forget SC2 vs BW argument #100,000 and just work out. I'm cool with that.
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