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Ok lately my macro has been sucking shit in all of my match ups, but i find that my unit production is still a tad bit better than the opponent i am playing (like a 70 unit advantage in most cases).
My game theory is still really weak, cause i have no sense of direction when pushing in any mu, esp in TvP.
This rep im about to post is the perfect example of whatgoes wrong in almost 70% of all of my games, regardless of the MU.
I believe that my early / mid game is much stronger than it was before, but my late game is so weak, it negates the advantage i have in the early / mid game. I need someone that knows what they are talking about to help me out on whats over stretching oneself and what is just right.
So in the rep, i noticed three major issues....
1. Scouting. IF i had saw that expo before hand, i would have definitely had a better chance of winning the game in about 5 minutes. IF i had saw his army before hand, i would knew when/ where to atk. I just keep forgetting on maps with elevation that you still need to mine everywhere to find his route.
2. Macro. If i had macroed better, i would have easily taken this game even with shitty micro. I see that my top three (also most severe) of my problems are related to macro. I have constant supply stops, horrible fac count, and severe lack of expos. I keep forgetting to expo, cause i just hate setting up the defense for it (theres no real static defense for these things) I cant figure out how to stop these supply stops...Its like i get an urge to keep building depots, but im at 90/120 or something like that, which tells me my unit production is severely lacking. General question -- whats the usual min/gas count that tells u to start adding more facs? like 500/500, 800/500, or something like that. Pop count isnt that useful cause that fluctuates constantly. A final macro question - what happens if im faced with a false economy? My 1st definition of a false economy = when min/gas builds up during a supply stop My 2nd definition of a false economy = when you have too many scvs, you get an illusion that your economy is working. 3rd = when you stop building and get a buildup of resources
Any three of these conditions haper my overall game play. Ideally, i should avoid these at all costs but no one is perfect. IF i add more facs, i end up with a mineral shortage and i am not able to produce enough units (putting my self at a severe unit count disadvantage). If i expo, i over extend myself and its very hard to take it for some reason. If i get a supply stop, what other ways are there to compensate for the build up of resources? Like extra cc, etc.
Ok my final problem #3 = Micro
aha i know thers no way to improve micro, but its just like even though i have an advantage in unit / pop count, i still lose my fucking army. Its on a ramp, i severely mined the path to my tanks up, vults are there, i might not have enough tanks but still; i cant really get around this problem.
What are some manuevers i can do as terran to kill a toss? Like pincer attacks, flanks (hard with seige tanks for some reason -.- ). etc etc. Im talking the general theory, not actual execution. Ill figure that part out myself.
Ok as for the rest, ill leave that for u guyz to find.
Hers the rep : Replay
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Watched the rep..
The general rule I play by in TvP is 3fac/base adding facs 1 at a time as the money comes up with constant pump of units / scvs
Also for supply, I leave 2 scvs near my depot field once I get into mid game so if I get near my cap I can add 2 more depots which is usually enough for 2 base to never hit cap. Obviously as your econ gets bigger and you get more facs you may need more.
By 20 minutes into the game you and the P were on 3 bases but you only had 6 facs and added a 7th at 20 minutes while you had over 1k minerals and 500+ gas .. pretty obvious you should add more and imo 3 would be enough to be able to constant pump.
To regard your questions on how you can hurt the toss and make your push more effective..
In the rep the toss 3rd expo was all the way across the map and he had zero shuttles, you had the high ground (which cut off his army from defending his 3rd) but didnt attack his 3rd expo with anything. A few vultures would have been enough or a dropship to put him behind significantly.
To hold the highground with tanks/mines is obviously a good advantage to have but you have to keep your vults inbetween his army and your tanks, if he has templars (which he didnt this game) then keep your vults moving back and forth to avoid storms but still be inbetween.
I think your real problem is multitasking, making a solid push while macroing takes practice but it will come.
Hope that helped some.
edit: forgot to say try to keep an scv or a vult moving around all your opponents potential expos. Mine at key points and at expos as well to keep tabs on everything.
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Hi, i just watched the rep, i am not a very good player, but maybe i can point out some errors.
I will try to do it in a chronological order.
03:16 - You dropped down the second factory, which usually suggest some kind of early attack/push from the terran, but you have seen then the 2 gw + spinning cyb, which most likely suggests 2 gw range goon pumping, and that is not the best thing to rush down. 03:52 - I don\'t think you need a bunker if you know that he is not zealot rushing you, and another reason against the bunker is the 2fact build that you used. 04:35 - Dual vult upgrades. They are really great and they can kick ass with proper micro but if you stick to the vults, remove some scvs from the gas, you had so much spare gas on the bank, and was low on minerals (for example, 05:57, you start expoing, and you have 580 gas). 08:32 - You bypass the expoing probe 2 times, and then just suicide your vults to his dragoons, spider mines are great, but it\'s really hard to outmicro 5 goons with 4 vults. This harass was not very cost efficient (you lost 4 vults, and killed 2 probes, and the goons didn\'t even lost their shields). Harassing is great, moreover, necessary, but if there is nothing to harass (i mean goons blocking the way in, and you don\'t have a dropship) then don\'t send your vultures to senseless death. 10:41 - You try to lay mines around the remaining army of the opponent. This is nice, but don\'t lose all your vults in the process, there was no need to do so, you could easily push the toss back with that many tanks. 12:30 - Whaah, you put down mines (btw too much to a place, anything that goes there drag too much and your mines blow up each other), and then you move your tanks BETWEEN the mines and the toss forces. It is like saying: Hey, dear zealots, please come attack my tanks, i put the mines to a perfect position to you, you can see, your tanks blow up quite spectacularly. The only reason why this battle is not a disaster for you is because your opponent continues the uphill battle against your tanks after losing all his zealots. 13:04 - Another vulture suicide mission, you exchange something like 7 vults to a single zealot. Not a very good deal. 15:04 - You attack your own vultures. I don\'t think it makes any sense. (I\'m just joking :D) After this battle with the goons (again, vults are not the best against goons, your mine laying is nice, but still inefficient, your enemy lost 2 goons and you lost something like 7 vults. 16:02 - Some mistakes in the battle: your tanks are defenseless from the middle, there are no mines. Because of that, you try to lay some, but its maybe the worst time to do so. You have zealots incoming from the front, you need to counter the zealots with your vultures, they do a nice full damage to them. Try to block the zealots with the vults or leave them right behind/between the tanks, then the dragoons can\'t hit them. Not surprisingly, the supply counts changed from 133 (you) 116(the toss) to 120(you) 118 (toss). 17:08 - Nice, you took the nexus out. (Just to say something positive too ) After this basically throughout the whole game uses a very low zealot count army. Ignoring this, you just keep massing and massing vults, you have 900 spare gas, when you only mine gas with 1 scv (!!!) from your expo through the whole game. The battles at your mineral only: Adapt, i beg you, you send tons and tons of vultures to the dragoon only armies of the enemy. Change your unit mix as your opponent changes it (maybe mine gas with 4 scvs at your neutral (because of that annoying comsat)). And why did you expanded to the double gas at 4? The toss has ridiculously easy acces to it. There is the one at 12 o\' clock.
So the main points:1: Your vultures are precious, don't throw away dozens of vultures for 2 probe kills or a dragoon kill. Their main purpouses are harassing and defending your tanks from zealots. 2: Guess what, if your opponent don\'t make a single zealot, then there is no need to mass vults continously from 5 facts (look at main point 1).
Hope i could help some (this is my first post here, so all sorts of flames are welcome ;-)
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2. Macro. If i had macroed better, i would have easily taken this game even with shitty micro. I see that my top three (also most severe) of my problems are related to macro. I have constant supply stops, horrible fac count, and severe lack of expos. If you know this, I don't understand why it is so hard for you to work on this yourself. Just make a conscious note that you need more facs, smoother supply depots, etc. No one here is going to be able to tell you anything unless you ask more specific questions.
General question -- whats the usual min/gas count that tells u to start adding more facs? like 500/500, 800/500, or something like that. Actually it's probably the most specific question you've asked. It all depends on what you're doing. You want to always be spending money, and there are only a few things you can be spending money on at any given time. Building units and supply depots (this one is always happening, except maybe in early game, and takes a constant share of your budget). Teching (this happens throughout the game, and is always when you're trying to get the counter for what your opponent is doing). Upgrading (this happens through most of the game too). Expanding (this also happens throughout the game). Basically what you want as far as efficiency is concerned, is to always take into account exactly what you're doing. Unless you're going a timing push and are completely focused on macro, you want to have a bit less than the maximum number of facs you can maintain per expo. The money that adds up as a result of you not spending money on producing units from facs you didn't build, then gets forwarded in the budget to things like tech, expos, static defence, and upgrades. Get everything you need in terms of tech and upgrades, and then when the money builds up again, just add the facs instead of letting the money sit cause you have no more tech or upgrading to do at the moment. That's just spending money in SC (without taking into account strategy). To put it simply, don't wait for money to build up to add facs. Add them right away, and recognize that everytime you expand, you're going to have a huge money surplus, so you should add a couple facs anyway.
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Ok maybe i should elaborate on my main problems a little bit.
My tvp push always fucking dies no matter wat. Thers no difference between 6 tanks and 18 tanks with 12 vults or 24 vults; i still keep getting my ass kicked. It might be because of my mines, or because of a lack of either unit, but i have never had a successful push vs a decent toss for such a long time its sad. The terrain doesnt make much of a difference either; cause i still die to hardcore zlots. Now i know the solution to zlots is vultures with mines, but i it just doesnt work out -.-. Spell casters. my tanks have been swarmed so many times, its just annoying now. Im always either too tense about my army or not tense enough, which results in losing either way. Ideally, i should scout and snipe them before before he starts attacking, but i always either find it too late or its too heavily protected.
macro....eh not that much more needed. Maybe bits on how to defend my damn expos cause they keep dieing, even with some defense. The cc is dead before my army gets there.
Heres another rep with almost the exact same issues. Could you guyz please just watch the micro part of it and tell me how can i improve my pushes? Ive tried so many things, it just never ever works out. Ive been following all the advice on my previous threads, its just that i never manage to pull anything off that works.
http://rapidshare.com/files/64042635/0171_tvp.rep.html
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Who can give me good TvP replays on Python? I can't figure out what to do.
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On October 21 2007 14:55 Metal[x] wrote: Who can give me good TvP replays on Python? I can't figure out what to do.
I can. This is my name on east and MaRiNe[23] on West. Just message me whenever I'm on for the reps.
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1. Scouting. IF i had saw that expo before hand, i would have definitely had a better chance of winning the game in about 5 minutes. IF i had saw his army before hand, i would knew when/ where to atk. I just keep forgetting on maps with elevation that you still need to mine everywhere to find his route.
To improve any aspect of your game such as scouting, just concentrate on improving it during the next few games while maintaining your normal game play (ie don't let your macro/micro get worse just so you have better scouting). After each game watch the rep slowly and take note of any points where you forgot to scout etc. In the following game, keep these in mind and try not to make the same mistakes.
When it comes to scouting in TvP, 1 vult with speed which has laid all its mines is very good for scouting. Even a vult without speed will do quite well too. Mines are good to follow the troop movement to watch for counter etc, and scvs can be good for this too (like if I don't have time to mine where he would do a counter from, but if the risk of a counter is big, then take the time to mine the route up so it would delay his attempt at a counter). I generally only use scan for his base to find tech, gateway count, and to look for expos if I have forgotten to scout the place (like for islands, but you should have every other expo covered using mines).
Scouting becomes all the more effective when you watch your minimap as much as you can. Again, watch your replay and take note of points where if you were watching the minimap, you mighta noticed that your mine at a certain expo got killed and he was trying to expand there (so you coulda killed his probe and delaye him). Watching the minimap also helps in reaction to drops etc which is what alot of players will try to do when you are distracted by the main battle.
2. Macro. If i had macroed better, i would have easily taken this game even with shitty micro. I see that my top three (also most severe) of my problems are related to macro. I have constant supply stops, horrible fac count, and severe lack of expos. I keep forgetting to expo, cause i just hate setting up the defense for it (theres no real static defense for these things)
Same thing, watch the rep for points at which your macro goes to crap, take a note of them, focus on it and do not make the same mistake the next game. You may need to watch the rep more than once to identify all your mistakes in scouting, macro, etc etc.
Defense for expos is not really an issue if you play the game well enough. If you are offensive in your game and always putting the pressure on the toss, it is much more difficult for him to try and attack one of your undefended expos because he cannot ignore your main army the threat it poses him. If you harass him enough, for example through 4 vult drops (its about laying mines in these drops, not actually shooting stuff, so lay as many mines as you can and spread them out), he will also have less time to try and take down your expos. Remember that offense is the best defence.
Sometimes the toss will try to harass undefended expos using a small ground of goon/zealot or some form of drop. Laying a bunch of mines should stop or at least delay this, and a group of vults can quickly take care of any form of drop as long as you react quickly enough (again, the impotance of minimap).
Also, sometimes it is advantageous if the toss foolishly decides to use his main army to take down your expo in response to your attack. This can actually win you the game if you react correctly by either going for his main and using mines to stop his main army from flanking your own army, or by defending a possible attack at your main by the toss. Terran defense is far superior to toss defense, so a couple of siege tanks and alot of mines can easily hold off his army for a while if he tries to attack your main. Meanwhile, you can go for his main, and you should be able to deal much more damage to him than he can to you.
All the defense you really need at expos is perhaps 1 turret to make his life harder if he tries to use shuttles, and alot of mines where he will have to walk to get to your expo.
I cant figure out how to stop these supply stops...Its like i get an urge to keep building depots, but im at 90/120 or something like that, which tells me my unit production is severely lacking.
Never have too many depots like this. Make a note to watch your supply count closely so you build only as many supplies as you need. From mid game to late game, you can afford to leave 2 scvs lying aroun your supplies to build any supplies when you need to. 6 facts constantly + scvs from 2 command centers will require at least 2 depots being built constantly to give you an idea. But don't rely on estimations like this. Instead make an effort to watch your supply count closely.
General question -- whats the usual min/gas count that tells u to start adding more facs? like 500/500, 800/500, or something like that. Pop count isnt that useful cause that fluctuates constantly.
How I decide on fact count is to look at the min and gas after I have built a 'wave' of units (ie build 1 unit in each of my facts). If I have money left over after this and after having built scv and depot and upgraes and tech and expo etc, I'll spend the remainding money on adding a fact. Basically, you keep a constant unit production up (no queuing up of units because that wastes money), spend money on anything else you need as listed above, then any remaining money you put into more facts (because having leftover money after you have spent money on everything else means your economy is able to support more facts than you currently have).
A final macro question - what happens if im faced with a false economy? My 1st definition of a false economy = when min/gas builds up during a supply stop My 2nd definition of a false economy = when you have too many scvs, you get an illusion that your economy is working. 3rd = when you stop building and get a buildup of resources
If I have a supply stop I'll spend it on upgrades or anything that I would've maybe gotten later such as academy or upgades or maybe add a fact. Ideally, the way to deal with this type of false economy is simply to not let it happen in the first place, which is where watching your supply count comes in.
If you know you have enough scvs, stop building more, or take more expos so you can distribute them. The extra money from not building anymore scvs should be put into either more expos or more facts. If you continue spending at your current rate after having stopped scv production you'll have a buildup of cash, which you should prevent by using it up in facts/expos.
Again, ideally this simply shouldn't happen. Get your macro up to a level where you don't have any significant lapses such as forgetting to build units for half a minute or longer, and these false economy problems go away.
Any three of these conditions haper my overall game play. Ideally, i should avoid these at all costs but no one is perfect. IF i add more facs, i end up with a mineral shortage and i am not able to produce enough units (putting my self at a severe unit count disadvantage). If i expo, i over extend myself and its very hard to take it for some reason. If i get a supply stop, what other ways are there to compensate for the build up of resources? Like extra cc, etc.
Noone is perfect, which is precisely why there's always room for improvement. Just because you can't attain perfection, doesn't mean you shouldn't try and approach it.
Don't go crazy with adding facts if you run into a false economy situation. 1 or at most 2 is enough. Use the rest of the buildup of cash to spend normally on units.
Difficulty in taking expos stems from bigger problems, such as a lack of units because your macro is simply too poor to compete with your opponent, or really bad strategic decisions. The problem with taking expos goes away if you improve your other aspects of gameplay - trust me. The difficulty you face is more like a symptom rather than a problem. It indicates something else in your gameplay has to be fixed.
Ok my final problem #3 = Micro
aha i know thers no way to improve micro, but its just like even though i have an advantage in unit / pop count, i still lose my fucking army. Its on a ramp, i severely mined the path to my tanks up, vults are there, i might not have enough tanks but still; i cant really get around this problem.
What are some manuevers i can do as terran to kill a toss? Like pincer attacks, flanks (hard with seige tanks for some reason -.- ). etc etc. Im talking the general theory, not actual execution. Ill figure that part out myself.
Micro comes with experience and a concious effort, similar to trying to improve macro/minimap/scouting whatever, to improve it in every game. You can force yourself to micro more cleanly, and recognise any significant problems you face by watching your rep, for example if you lay mines too slowly or you keep missing "o" for siege. In the next games, force yourself to mine more quickly, and to hit "o" more accurately (or perhaps consider pressing the icon for sieging, but I wouldn't recommend it).
Any sort of manuevers will only work if you have good scouting. You must have the information about the opponent before you can make any sort of smart decision about how to approach the issue of attacking him.
Mines are very important in any manuevers you want to execute. For example, you could send a tank and a couple of vults to take a stab at his expo. Lay as many mines as you can to protect your tank, and get the tank to target on his nexus. The toss may decide to use his main army to quickly dispatch of this threat. If he chooses to do so, you should attack something asap. Then use mines to significantly the effectiveness of his main army which he will try to pull back in order to flank your army. A common situation I face is as follows:
Me at 3, the toss at 9 at python. The toss has taken 2 expos (his 2nd expo is at the 11 oclock position) in response to my expansion. I have pushed to the middle in response to his 2nd expansion, but am reluctant to move forwards any quicker because of the threat of a big counter. I decide to lure his army away by using a couple of vults + maybe a tank to take a stab at his 2nd expo at 11 position. He pulls a significant amount of his army in order to defend his expo. I unsiege immediately and move forwar with everything I have towards his natural, and siege up at the choke leading into his natural, laying mines above my army and to the right of my army because his main army, which is at 11 right now, will have to apprach at these directions in order to attack my push. Any units at home I siege and mine up in order to prevent the possibility of his main army trying to counter me. Alot of the time the game ends at this point when the toss is forced to attack my push in order to save his natural, but fails because of the extensive use of correctly placed mines and the choke which decreases the amount of flanking he can do. Even if I don't have the oppurtunity to move right up to his nat choke, I can get further towards his nat, and I have time to mine on the sides of push in order to make it stronger (because his army is busy at 11).
Alot of these sorta decisions also come from experience and watching good players play and identifying the reasons for why the opponent chose to attack and how is he attacking.
I can't watch your rep cause I haven't got bw installed.
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ty skyglow; your info was very insightful.
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