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http://warbucket.com/ibforums/index.php?showtopic=29545
The post is mainly driven by an Lebanese guy and an Israeli (HairyPrincess and computer(jew)[who serves in the Israeli reserves]) who report news from their country.
After reading through it completely (ignoring the many random opinion posts by fuckfaces) I've found it very compelling and thought to share it. There is one guy who shares an email from his brother who has dual citizenship in canada where he spills out the situation in Beruit (the brother was later inteviewed on CBC news by satelite video.)
Warbucket has a lot of morons, so I really recommend not reading every post in it, but the post is very good and the guys stay unbiased for the most part (considering the situation, I can't lay any blame for HP getting emotional.)
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On July 22 2006 03:19 Wysp wrote: Warbucket has a lot of morons, so I really recommend not reading every post in it, but the post is very good and the guys stay unbiased for the most part (considering the situation, I can't lay any blame for HP getting emotional.) Most of the people there are smart and down-to-earth guys, they just fuck around all the time.
But yea I was following Hairy_Princess' updates since he started the news posts and it's a really good source of information. Great how him and Computer(Jew) managed to not argue in that thread and just give straight up information about the topic.
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On July 22 2006 03:24 DarkGhost]Coon[ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2006 03:19 Wysp wrote: Warbucket has a lot of morons, so I really recommend not reading every post in it, but the post is very good and the guys stay unbiased for the most part (considering the situation, I can't lay any blame for HP getting emotional.) Most of the people there are smart and down-to-earth guys, they just fuck around all the time. But yea I was following Hairy_Princess' updates since he started the news posts and it's a really good source of information. Great how him and Computer(Jew) managed to not argue in that thread and just give straight up information about the topic.
I understand that most of the people there are down to earth, I've been reading warbucket for almost 4 years now. But, a lot of the posters are dumb, and even a lot of people I like to read posts from I'd still describe as fuckfaces :op
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You're right, it was an excellent forum topic. Very informative. It also helps bring the humanity back to the situation which is a good thing to we who are far removed from it and would mostly post immature statements about how we should just bomb it all.
Good thread, wysp.
Anyone interested in the conflict with Isreal should really take a look at this thread.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
Thanks for the link. I'm just skipping over all the non-HP, non-CJ posts right now.
By the way, what's this Gaza offensive that they mention? o.Oa
Edit: I found this information very insightful:
As for some commentary on why I think this move is super retarded, especially blaming the state. All you dumb fucks who have been ranting on about "lol state should cover its borders responsability over its territory" gay-ass bullshit, don't understand a single thing about how this country works.
It has been barely a year since Lebanon regained its independence and sovereignty, do not forget this. Since that time, the country has been trying to balance out and construct a functional government and working state. Hizb Allah is also a very real political minority in Lebanon (especially the South and Bekaa). They are also the only minority with weapons. This is a very sensitive topic and many have been working on a path to disarming them or at least have the army absorb them so that it can uphold a monopoly on armed force. I mean please forgive us if we don't opt to go to fucking civil war and tear our nation apart in order to disarm Hizb Allah. Now I believe that Israel should not be targetting Lebanon as a whole (e.g. setting back their economy "20 years", as they promised to do), since this will only make it harder for the government there to take control of its country. It really is a totally idiotic move.
Edit2: Some other interesting quotes:
You wanna know why this is happening? The new Israeli PM has NO military background. That is never a good thing cause it means he has not seen the horrors and futility of war with his own eyes. Prime Ministers who have served in the army tend to be more diplomatically minded.
YES ! I think I posted this opinion on more than one occasion actually . This is why Itzhak Rabin(ex-General of all IDF) went a long way to meet Arafat and started the peace process(and was murdered by an Israeli) , Ehud Barak(best single soldier in modern time, ex- General of all IDF) offered the very generous Camp David paper ,and pulled out of Lebanon completely, and this is why Ariel Sharon (a monster in the eyes of many) pulled out of Gaza , while using massive force (cyber horsies!) against Jewish settlers .
A man that witnessed war will actually go farther to avoid it .
Edit3: regarding Hezbollah / Hizballah and the Lebanese economy:
[Hizballah] have hammered the final nail into the Lebanese economy's coffin. This summer was supposed to be the greatest ever for tourism. So many festivals, parties, concerts were being organised. Hotels fully booked and many had initiated programs to go up in stars and had brought in new trainers for their services staff. It was gonna be so awesome. So many celebrities were gonna come (Sean Paul was to perform THIS SATURDAY); singers, world-class DJ's. It looks like Hezbollah WANTS to cripple Lebanon's economy. This will probably benefit them in 2 ways: 1. make it harder for the government to control and disarm them 2. encourage more citizens to join their ranks
And Israel is giving them exactly what they want.
Edit4: Apparently some of the better, more experienced leaders and politicians in Israel understand the situation. Note that it is believed that Syria is providing Hezbollah with resources and arms, making them the real enemy, not Lebanon.
Quick update ... One of the old-school leaders , Avi Dichter hinted that Syria should keep it's head down or Israel will avenge Rafik Hariri with an equivalent assassination .
Shimon Peres (the oldest and most experienced of Israeli politicians) says that Hezbollah is holding the Lebanon government hostage .
These statements are actually for the better , as it shows that Israeli leaders are aware of the situation in Lebanon and are not firing mindlessly into the crowd . But , I tnink they have set their goals so high that in order to reach them , the IDF will have to spend quite some time in Lebanon .
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P.M. Olmert has no military background?
From the office of the Prime Minister:
November 1963 – Began his military service in the 13th Regiment, Golani Brigade. During his service he suffered injuries to a leg and an arm, which required prolonged medical treatment. He completed his military service in 1971 at the “Hamahane” newspaper.
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That thread took me well over an hour to read. ;p
In my own conspiracy theory, much of this was anticipated (sooner or later) and the US and Isreal have waited for an opportunity like this to arise. As governments. Not as the people. The people are pawns in a greater game. But if they could widen this scale, they might be able to accomplish their goals and solidify Isreal's position while sending the clearest message of dominance and submission. Unlikely, as it would only have a reaction of more terror groups and insurgents forming etc...
If Isreal's attacks can draw enough proof that Iran has been supporting and supply Hezbollah, Bush may be able to call them terrorists, as they paint Hezbollah out to be terrorists. If Isreal is really backing itself into a situation where it may need help as other nations ally against it, U.S will have more than enough reason to act as the "peace-keeping" hero of the land lending Isreal a hand. Though with their extremely adept army, that may never come into play unless it is stretched too thin. Iran is a much tougher target than Iraq, with double the population and a very mountainous terrain. But perhaps do-able as the soldiers have gained more experience in Iraq. This would further Pax Americana, (which is to "liberate" the nations of the middle east, attempting to americanize them moreso so that in the future there are less clashes. It is to spread democracy, and american influence. Which of course leads to profits and perhaps more peace in 30-40 years. More americanization provides more profits, and war is profitable for quite a few).
Anyway, that's the conspiracy theory.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
Ah good, apparently HP made it out of Lebanon.
Also, Israel's ground force is making its way through southern Lebanon. It is also letting everyone know where it is and where it is going, so that residents can prepare or evacuate in advance.
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OK, I've just read through it, and I'm tired of seeing the persistent, occasional blasts on the Isrealis over the Gaza strip thing. At my University, an Isreali professor (who is also a member of the Isreali Army) showed us a first hand documentary of the Gaza strip evacuations by the Isrealis. We saw many many pictures, before and after, of the Palestinian takeover. He also had pictures of the horrible things Palestinians were doing as they took control of the region. It brought tears to everyones eyes.
As far as the Isrealis army pushing around civilians? We saw extensive photos of the soldiers and the civilians crying together, helping eachother. There was definitely solidarity there. The civilians knew they had to leave, the soldiers knew they had to leave. The soldiers were extremely empathetic. There were some old people who refused to leave. One old guy stayed on the roof of his house, even until it was bulldozed by a Palestinian bulldozer after the evacuation.
And then, the peaceful-looking city was turned into a war trench by the new occupants.
The palestinians smeared shit all over the main temple there (I forget the name of it, the 'stone' or 'dome of the rock' temple, it's a big deal in Jewish faith w/e). And they posted banners and standards representing a main Palesitinian terror organization (I forget the name, and I dont want to be inaccurate). The area is supposed to be neutral, and watching this large contingent of Palestinian militives setting up gun turrets and sentries was shocking! The pictures were very graphic.
Damnit, I forget so many of the specific details, but I saw this all with my own eyes, and heard a first hand perspective. VERY different perspective from what you read and see on TV. I wish I had taken notes to remember, it was 2 semesters ago.
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HeadBangaa, It doesn't seem like you have done much background research into the Israeli-Arab conflict. For an impartial point of view, an ex-israeli solider presenting pictures and documentaries might not be the best option
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The biggest problem with this whole thing is that it happened at the worse possibly time for lebanon. They had huge celebrations planned and basicly every hotel in the countries cities were booked solid. Now everyone has canceled their traveled plans and no new money will enter the country. Tourists next year? Fuck no, its going to take them another decade to rebuild a reputation.
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"It looks like Hezbollah WANTS to cripple Lebanon's economy."
They don't want to. Hezbollah is not a terrorist group, they are just too proud and a patrol of their's made a retarded move. Capturing soilders and keeping the remains of the dead is asking Israel to go to the next level. I really grieve for the rational people who are hurt by all of this stupidity(the bombings on both sides being the stupidity.)
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HeadBangaa if someone would come to your land, kill your parents and make you leave then you would be allowed to come back (after 50 years), you would put shit on his temple too
personally I believe you would want to see the person die
ps. you are potentially brain-washed by jewish propaganda, wonder if they had a lecture by a palestinian? of course not. unbiased opinions are the best..
ps2. Im antisemitic, because I criticise jews, you cant criticise them, because they died in ww2. poles died in ww2 too and noone gives a shit. and what they do in palestine = holocaust but they control the press, so dumb people vote dumb bush, who helps the poeople of afghanistan (or whatever) but doesnt give a shit about palesitna or africa for that matter
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I got off the phone with my cousin, who's in Lebanon this moment, with my Aunt and many more of my family. I've never met him, first time I've talked to him actually, as emotional as it was, it's sad, it really is. You don't know what war is like until you experienced it, I've always been against it due to sheer logic, I don't want to die, why would I want other people to, you don't understand personally or affectionally how exactly it is. I live on the other side of the world than half my family (of whom I've only met one cousin and my aunt when they visited), and yet I feel so emotionally distressed, I can't imagine how he's feeling right now or anyone for that matter. This puts things in perspective, the war on Iraq, everything, it's fucked up, war is, the idea of killing someone is. My cousin is 31. He thinks he's doing to die. He said once all the foreigners are out, Israel will step it up a notch and show Lebanon how it really is. Lebanon is innocent, and the fact the world is letting this happen, the world let Iraq happen makes no sense. I remember reading somewhere something along the lines of the only people who want war are people who've never experienced it, holy fuck is that true.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
Apparently Israel is now attacking innocent civilians intentionally and using illegal weapons (phosphorous). The UN says it's wrong but doesn't do shit about it.
http://warbucket.com/site/news/index.php
If you ask me, it looks like Israel has no chance of defeating Hezbollah, so instead they are making the entire nation -- all of its innocent civilians, even the ones who were AGAINST Hezbollah -- suffer.
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Even I was not a supporter of Hizb Allah and was for a peace track with Israel, granted they begin to respect Lebanese borders and leave us be. On July 12th, the day this shit storm started, I was so enraged at Hizb Allah cause I knew that hell was about to be unleashed. Now, I find myself smiling when I hear about rockets landing in Haifa (I must be honest and cannot deny this fact). Now, I find myself cheering for Nasrallah everytime he gives a speech.
Pounding people into submission might not be the best way for Israel to protect itself. They really need to change the hearts and minds of their neighbors. Every step forward is followed by a giant leap backward. It might work for now, but eventually Iran is going to attain WMD, and I wouldn't want to be on their bad side when that happens. By then, Barak's extremely generous offer will start to seem a little less generous.
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why not just give em out teh soldiers israel wants...
even though those soldiers were just an excuse to attack lebanon
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Pride gets in their way. Giving them back could be seen as a sign of weakness. Even more so now the IDF bombed civilian on purpose with the people enraged or shocked.. I think your right about giving them back, it puts Israel to shame even more if they do not offer something in return when they are released by the rebels without demands of the rebels. Noble gestures are needed if you want to accomplish peace in the long run..
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
Put Israel to shame? They are breaking international laws and trying to torture the entire population of Lebanon. Somehow, I don't think they're afraid of looking like barbarians to the rest of the world.
Honestly, you can't attack and invade another country and then expect them to disarm their only form of self-defense. (Israel and the US are asking that Hezbollah be disarmed as a condition of the cease-fire)
Please give me one good reason why Hezbollah should give back the soldiers. It's not going to change a thing at this point anyway.
And how about Israel? Why don't you ask them to give back the 100+ Lebanese they are holding captive, many without any trial or conviction?
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All this time ive been being told they were inside the border when being captured -_-.
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