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Taken from: http://teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=53602
On May 21 2007 23:43 nagash wrote: I'm pretty sure that this entire post is pointless, because PRODUCTION ISN'T BEING DONE THE SAME WAY.
EDIT: Someone make a new thread with this info. It's important. I can't make new posts for 8 more days.
Check this:
A single Gateway/Warp Gate is constantly producing a single generic unit (I'm assuming only 1).
When that single unit is ready, it is your job to select which type of unit you want it to be and to bring it onto the battlefield INSTANTLY (and paying for it). After you do this, the Gateway/Warp Gate starts producing another one *automatically*.
So, in effect, this will make it even more important to multitask. Since you cant just select your Gateway and spam 5 zealots because there is only 1 available, you will have to make sure you are releasing your units all the time as they are available otherwise you will fall behind.
So basically this makes everyones whinging about being able to select and build from multiple production buildings pointless.
Here's the proof:
For proof - check the video. ~ 5:20 when he warps the Stalkers in from a Warp Gate There are 4 Warp Gates selected, and each mini icon on the right of the HUD shows there being 4 units available. That is, you can select to create 4 zealots, 4 stalkers, 4 immortals or any combination of the above INSTANTLY (if you have the resources). Once the available numbers reach 0 you can clearly see the cooldown/build timer on the icons!
Btw, a Stalker costs 125 minerals and 50 gas atm. (You can work it out when he warps the first one in, by the resources lost)
Same thing at ~7:10 when he warps the Zealots in from a Warp Gate
So basically, if this info is correct gateways are essentially always building the only thing is that certain units have to wait longer before they can be built, such as 10 secs before a zealot is available to build, 15 secs before an Immortal is available to build, etc. and I assume that once it reaches the maximum build time any unit is available to be built and acts like a queued unit without the wasted money.
Can anyone confirm this? All credit goes to nagash, I'm just making the thread since he cannot yet.
Edit: Shoot mod please move to SC2 forum. T.T
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thedeadhaji
39473 Posts
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MURICA15980 Posts
I'll copy what I posted in that thread:
Okay, went into the HD trailer and looked at it... when he had 4 gateways selected, there was a small "4" next to the build unit icons and the number decreased as he warped in one unit. So that establishes that protoss will build differently than they do right now.
However, that doesn't answer if each unit will have differing "cool down" periods. Example: you can build zealot after 40 seconds, stalkers at 50 seconds, etc. After looking at the time when he had 12 gateways selected, we can conclude the gateways will have differing cool down rates for each unit.
Look at this picture:
Zealots are at 12 but other units are at 10.
EDIT: hold on, looking at the picture more closely... and all the numbers are the same, huh? damn. And seeing as he had 16 gateways selected, the number is probably 16. ;o
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MURICA15980 Posts
too late ;D
And good job noticing this in the first place, nagash. We were all bitching at each other without realizing this awesome concept... especially because Blizzard didn't clearly define it for us.
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i think protoss might have new method of production... but who knows... not me, or anyone here on this forum:D except Pillars maybe
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MURICA15980 Posts
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This is also only confirmed by the video for Warp Gates (the upgraded Gateway). I imagine the Gateway acting exactly the same though, otherwise it would be confusing imo.
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this is typical for blizzard, everyone is bitching about "macro not being macro if u can select multiple buildings". Then they come with this briliant idea and everyone is like :o
They come with the solution from a totally different angle and im loving it.
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ok, i'll take my words back just wanna add: i think at first gateways will be same as in SC1, and only after warp upgrade or something there will be implemented new method of warping...
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The Gateways will first only be able to warp in units in the proximity of the gateway ( I don't know how large area this will be), while the upgrade to warp way will warp in units anywhere in the powergrid.
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On May 22 2007 01:47 Klogon wrote: I'll copy what I posted in that thread:
Okay, went into the HD trailer and looked at it... when he had 4 gateways selected, there was a small "4" next to the build unit icons and the number decreased as he warped in one unit. So that establishes that protoss will build differently than they do right now.
However, that doesn't answer if each unit will have differing "cool down" periods. Example: you can build zealot after 40 seconds, stalkers at 50 seconds, etc. After looking at the time when he had 12 gateways selected, we can conclude the gateways will have differing cool down rates for each unit.
Look at this picture:
Zealots are at 12 but other units are at 10.
EDIT: hold on, looking at the picture more closely... and all the numbers are the same, huh? damn. And seeing as he had 16 gateways selected, the number is probably 16. ;o Hmm, if you check when he is warping in zealots he has 16 gateways selected as well but the number seems to be 1 digit.
Edit: Also when he is warping in stalkers you can see the number changing looks like it's counting down from 4-0 after he warps in each stalker and he has 4 gateways selected at all times.
Yep, same with the zealots, when he first selects the gateways it looks like the number 16 is next to all of the units but as soon as he warps all of them the number is down to zero.
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On May 22 2007 01:23 mahnini wrote:Taken from: http://teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=53602Show nested quote +On May 21 2007 23:43 nagash wrote: I'm pretty sure that this entire post is pointless, because PRODUCTION ISN'T BEING DONE THE SAME WAY.
EDIT: Someone make a new thread with this info. It's important. I can't make new posts for 8 more days.
Check this:
A single Gateway/Warp Gate is constantly producing a single generic unit (I'm assuming only 1).
When that single unit is ready, it is your job to select which type of unit you want it to be and to bring it onto the battlefield INSTANTLY (and paying for it). After you do this, the Gateway/Warp Gate starts producing another one *automatically*.
So, in effect, this will make it even more important to multitask. Since you cant just select your Gateway and spam 5 zealots because there is only 1 available, you will have to make sure you are releasing your units all the time as they are available otherwise you will fall behind.
So basically this makes everyones whinging about being able to select and build from multiple production buildings pointless.
Here's the proof:
For proof - check the video. ~ 5:20 when he warps the Stalkers in from a Warp Gate There are 4 Warp Gates selected, and each mini icon on the right of the HUD shows there being 4 units available. That is, you can select to create 4 zealots, 4 stalkers, 4 immortals or any combination of the above INSTANTLY (if you have the resources). Once the available numbers reach 0 you can clearly see the cooldown/build timer on the icons!
Btw, a Stalker costs 125 minerals and 50 gas atm. (You can work it out when he warps the first one in, by the resources lost)
Same thing at ~7:10 when he warps the Zealots in from a Warp Gate So basically, if this info is correct gateways are essentially always building the only thing is that certain units have to wait longer before they can be built, such as 10 secs before a zealot is available to build, 15 secs before an Immortal is available to build, etc. and I assume that once it reaches the maximum build time any unit is available to be built and acts like a queued unit without the wasted money. Can anyone confirm this? All credit goes to nagash, I'm just making the thread since he cannot yet. Edit: Shoot mod please move to SC2 forum. T.T
ok lets assume the cool down for immortals is really 15 and the cooldown for besis is 10.
what happens to the cooldown (of the besis) if you build 4 besis? does it start off fresh? or does it start off with 5 because you already built up these additional 5 seconds waiting for the immortal to load...?
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MURICA15980 Posts
On May 22 2007 02:05 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2007 01:47 Klogon wrote: I'll copy what I posted in that thread:
Okay, went into the HD trailer and looked at it... when he had 4 gateways selected, there was a small "4" next to the build unit icons and the number decreased as he warped in one unit. So that establishes that protoss will build differently than they do right now.
However, that doesn't answer if each unit will have differing "cool down" periods. Example: you can build zealot after 40 seconds, stalkers at 50 seconds, etc. After looking at the time when he had 12 gateways selected, we can conclude the gateways will have differing cool down rates for each unit.
Look at this picture:
Zealots are at 12 but other units are at 10.
EDIT: hold on, looking at the picture more closely... and all the numbers are the same, huh? damn. And seeing as he had 16 gateways selected, the number is probably 16. ;o Hmm, if you check when he is warping in zealots he has 16 gateways selected as well but the number seems to be 1 digit. Huh? No, it is clearly two digits. Look at my picture...
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On May 22 2007 02:10 Klogon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2007 02:05 mahnini wrote:On May 22 2007 01:47 Klogon wrote: I'll copy what I posted in that thread:
Okay, went into the HD trailer and looked at it... when he had 4 gateways selected, there was a small "4" next to the build unit icons and the number decreased as he warped in one unit. So that establishes that protoss will build differently than they do right now.
However, that doesn't answer if each unit will have differing "cool down" periods. Example: you can build zealot after 40 seconds, stalkers at 50 seconds, etc. After looking at the time when he had 12 gateways selected, we can conclude the gateways will have differing cool down rates for each unit.
Look at this picture:
Zealots are at 12 but other units are at 10.
EDIT: hold on, looking at the picture more closely... and all the numbers are the same, huh? damn. And seeing as he had 16 gateways selected, the number is probably 16. ;o Hmm, if you check when he is warping in zealots he has 16 gateways selected as well but the number seems to be 1 digit. Huh? No, it is clearly two digits. Look at my picture... Check my edited post, it seems like after warping the number is 0 and 16 before, can you confirm this, the version I have isn't HD. :[
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Hrm, Im confused now.... :/
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On May 22 2007 02:13 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2007 02:10 Klogon wrote:On May 22 2007 02:05 mahnini wrote:On May 22 2007 01:47 Klogon wrote: I'll copy what I posted in that thread:
Okay, went into the HD trailer and looked at it... when he had 4 gateways selected, there was a small "4" next to the build unit icons and the number decreased as he warped in one unit. So that establishes that protoss will build differently than they do right now.
However, that doesn't answer if each unit will have differing "cool down" periods. Example: you can build zealot after 40 seconds, stalkers at 50 seconds, etc. After looking at the time when he had 12 gateways selected, we can conclude the gateways will have differing cool down rates for each unit.
Look at this picture:
Zealots are at 12 but other units are at 10.
EDIT: hold on, looking at the picture more closely... and all the numbers are the same, huh? damn. And seeing as he had 16 gateways selected, the number is probably 16. ;o Hmm, if you check when he is warping in zealots he has 16 gateways selected as well but the number seems to be 1 digit. Huh? No, it is clearly two digits. Look at my picture... Check my edited post, it seems like after warping the number is 0 and 16 before, can you confirm this, the version I have isn't HD. :[
Yes it is. It goes from 4 to 0 on the Stalkers and 16 to 0 on the Zealots.
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Awesome, I really hope this is true now. It would make things a lot more interesting!
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How about this:
You build units the same way as before, except when they finish, they get queued into all connected pylons and phase prisms. That way, to deploy them, you click on pylons or phase prisms anywhere on the map and warp them onto the battlefield. Evidence of this is the numbers next to units in the screenshots that were posted... that could be the units allowed to be teleported at that particular phase prism/pylon. There may be an option to queue the units to automatically warp to a certain location on the map, given that it is in range. There may be restrictions on this, such as only being able to warp units across pylon or phase prism influence... meaning you have to connect the range of the pylons and phase prisms in order to teleport your units to a certain location. This would inspire some really cool strategies, like building a chain of pylons to an opponent's base for quick deployment or heavily using phase prisms.
Maybe it will only work with phase prisms, and pylons solely provide power. However, I find this unlikely, since phase prisms also act as transport units, and since if pylons were unable to deploy your units, you would need phase prisms right off the bat... meaning protoss would have air transport immediately. I guess it is possible, though, that the phase prism is just an added technology that isn't required at the beginning of the game... meaning that you are still allowed to deploy units directly out of buildings, like the gateway... teleporting them may just be an option once you have phase prisms.
I'm going to guess that phase prisms and pylons both act to deploy units, though. Seems cool and logical.
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On May 22 2007 02:21 AcrossFiveJulys wrote: How about this:
You build units the same way as before, except when they finish, they get queued into a universal queue inside pylons and phase prisms. That way, to deploy them, you click on pylons or phase prisms anywhere on the map and warp them onto the battlefield. There may be an option to queue the units to automatically warp to a certain location on the map, given that it is in range. There may be restrictions on this, such as only being able to warp units across pylon or phase prism influence... meaning you have to connect the range of the pylons and phase prisms in order to teleport your units to a certain location. This would inspire some really cool strategies, like building a chain of pylons to an opponent's base for quick deployment or heavily using phase prisms.
Maybe it will only work with phase prisms, and pylons solely provide power. However, I find this unlikely, since phase prisms also act as transport units, and since if pylons were unable to deploy your units, you would need phase prisms right off the bat... meaning protoss would have air transport immediately.
So the only logical conclusion I'm coming up with here is that phase prisms and pylons both act to deploy units.
You could just read at www.starcraft2.com where they say that the phase prism when deployed is EXACTLY like a pylon and that warp gates deploy units anywhere within the psionic power grid
You can also watch the replay and see that the unit cost is subtracted when the unit is warped in, if it was already build it wouldn't cost to warp it in
They could always change the mechanic but it seems pretty cool as it is.
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On May 22 2007 02:08 -DaJ- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2007 01:23 mahnini wrote:Taken from: http://teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=53602On May 21 2007 23:43 nagash wrote: I'm pretty sure that this entire post is pointless, because PRODUCTION ISN'T BEING DONE THE SAME WAY.
EDIT: Someone make a new thread with this info. It's important. I can't make new posts for 8 more days.
Check this:
A single Gateway/Warp Gate is constantly producing a single generic unit (I'm assuming only 1).
When that single unit is ready, it is your job to select which type of unit you want it to be and to bring it onto the battlefield INSTANTLY (and paying for it). After you do this, the Gateway/Warp Gate starts producing another one *automatically*.
So, in effect, this will make it even more important to multitask. Since you cant just select your Gateway and spam 5 zealots because there is only 1 available, you will have to make sure you are releasing your units all the time as they are available otherwise you will fall behind.
So basically this makes everyones whinging about being able to select and build from multiple production buildings pointless.
Here's the proof:
For proof - check the video. ~ 5:20 when he warps the Stalkers in from a Warp Gate There are 4 Warp Gates selected, and each mini icon on the right of the HUD shows there being 4 units available. That is, you can select to create 4 zealots, 4 stalkers, 4 immortals or any combination of the above INSTANTLY (if you have the resources). Once the available numbers reach 0 you can clearly see the cooldown/build timer on the icons!
Btw, a Stalker costs 125 minerals and 50 gas atm. (You can work it out when he warps the first one in, by the resources lost)
Same thing at ~7:10 when he warps the Zealots in from a Warp Gate So basically, if this info is correct gateways are essentially always building the only thing is that certain units have to wait longer before they can be built, such as 10 secs before a zealot is available to build, 15 secs before an Immortal is available to build, etc. and I assume that once it reaches the maximum build time any unit is available to be built and acts like a queued unit without the wasted money. Can anyone confirm this? All credit goes to nagash, I'm just making the thread since he cannot yet. Edit: Shoot mod please move to SC2 forum. T.T ok lets assume the cool down for immortals is really 15 and the cooldown for besis is 10. what happens to the cooldown (of the besis) if you build 4 besis? does it start off fresh? or does it start off with 5 because you already built up these additional 5 seconds waiting for the immortal to load...? Hmm, I would assume it wouldn't carry over taking a hell of a lot more skill to be able to macro properly, but then again, at this point all we have are guesses. We don't even know if it's actually implemented yet.
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On May 22 2007 02:25 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2007 02:08 -DaJ- wrote:On May 22 2007 01:23 mahnini wrote:Taken from: http://teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=53602On May 21 2007 23:43 nagash wrote: I'm pretty sure that this entire post is pointless, because PRODUCTION ISN'T BEING DONE THE SAME WAY.
EDIT: Someone make a new thread with this info. It's important. I can't make new posts for 8 more days.
Check this:
A single Gateway/Warp Gate is constantly producing a single generic unit (I'm assuming only 1).
When that single unit is ready, it is your job to select which type of unit you want it to be and to bring it onto the battlefield INSTANTLY (and paying for it). After you do this, the Gateway/Warp Gate starts producing another one *automatically*.
So, in effect, this will make it even more important to multitask. Since you cant just select your Gateway and spam 5 zealots because there is only 1 available, you will have to make sure you are releasing your units all the time as they are available otherwise you will fall behind.
So basically this makes everyones whinging about being able to select and build from multiple production buildings pointless.
Here's the proof:
For proof - check the video. ~ 5:20 when he warps the Stalkers in from a Warp Gate There are 4 Warp Gates selected, and each mini icon on the right of the HUD shows there being 4 units available. That is, you can select to create 4 zealots, 4 stalkers, 4 immortals or any combination of the above INSTANTLY (if you have the resources). Once the available numbers reach 0 you can clearly see the cooldown/build timer on the icons!
Btw, a Stalker costs 125 minerals and 50 gas atm. (You can work it out when he warps the first one in, by the resources lost)
Same thing at ~7:10 when he warps the Zealots in from a Warp Gate So basically, if this info is correct gateways are essentially always building the only thing is that certain units have to wait longer before they can be built, such as 10 secs before a zealot is available to build, 15 secs before an Immortal is available to build, etc. and I assume that once it reaches the maximum build time any unit is available to be built and acts like a queued unit without the wasted money. Can anyone confirm this? All credit goes to nagash, I'm just making the thread since he cannot yet. Edit: Shoot mod please move to SC2 forum. T.T ok lets assume the cool down for immortals is really 15 and the cooldown for besis is 10. what happens to the cooldown (of the besis) if you build 4 besis? does it start off fresh? or does it start off with 5 because you already built up these additional 5 seconds waiting for the immortal to load...? Hmm, I would assume it wouldn't carry over taking a hell of a lot more skill to be able to macro properly, but then again, at this point all we have are guesses. We don't even know if it's actually implemented yet.
It is obviously implemented since we see it in the video, the question is though how much they will tweak the mechanic. Warcraft 3 changed a fair bit during beta and by a huuge amount during the alpha stages. Didn't it start as a pure rpg?
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On May 22 2007 02:25 mahnini wrote: Hmm, I would assume it wouldn't carry over taking a hell of a lot more skill to be able to macro properly, but then again, at this point all we have are guesses. We don't even know if it's actually implemented yet.
It's obviously implemented from my analysis and the video itself. The only thing we don't know is the details.
Does it work like this for Gateways as well? Can it only do 1 unit at a time (which imo would be best and is what it seems at the moment) or if you build your gateway and come back 20 mins later you have 3000 units waiting for you to put out? Are the cooldowns/build times different or the same for each unit?
These are the things we don't know...
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Hmm, maybe there's a cooldown affect instead of a generic unit automatically building, like your unit builds instantly but afterwards you have to wait a certain amount of time before being able to build another unit, something like a reverse building time effect.
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Son a bitch, I totally missed that little explanation on Blizzard's website about the warp gate. I didn't realize there was such a thing. I'm going to rewatch the gameplay video again and make another attempt at a theory. Thanks for pointing that out.
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On May 22 2007 02:30 mahnini wrote: Hmm, maybe there's a cooldown affect instead of a generic unit automatically building, like your unit builds instantly but afterwards you have to wait a certain amount of time before being able to build another unit, something like a reverse building time effect.
Yes that is how it appears to be working. My initial posting didn't take this into account, I was just so excited about finding this
We don't know if the cooldowns for each unit are different or what though.
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if you haven't upgraded your gateway to a warp gate, how do you deploy your first zealot? Would it really be built instantly in front of your gateway?
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I think you would deploy it the same way only that you're limited to the general area around the gateway. Just a guess though.
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On May 22 2007 02:39 AcrossFiveJulys wrote: if you haven't upgraded your gateway to a warp gate, how do you deploy your first zealot? Would it really be built instantly in front of your gateway?
Assuming that, yes. Or on the completion of the Gateway, it triggers the cooldown. We really have no idea if Gateways production is even the same as Warp Gate, so your guess is as good as anyones.
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ok... i think i can disappoint everybody... but.. remeber that in demo they said that they cheated mana and shields?.. i think they also cheated time production... so when u select warpgate and select "rally point" it will took time in real game before he actually appear on the battlefield
and i'm like 99.99% sure that is how it's done...
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On May 22 2007 02:46 lamarine wrote: ok... i think i can disappoint everybody... but.. remeber that in demo they said that they cheated mana and shields?.. i think they also cheated time production... so when u select warpgate and select "rally point" it will took time in real game before he actually appear on the battlefield
and i'm like 99.99% sure that is how it's done...
No, because you can see it trigger the cooldown after they warp in the units.
Particularly you can see the cooldown thingy going around the icons after they warp in the 16 zealots. It may very well be sped up - but it's still noticeable. Goes about half way in 5 seconds or something.
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On May 22 2007 02:46 lamarine wrote: ok... i think i can disappoint everybody... but.. remeber that in demo they said that they cheated mana and shields?.. i think they also cheated time production... so when u select warpgate and select "rally point" it will took time in real game before he actually appear on the battlefield
and i'm like 99.99% sure that is how it's done...
I don't think it will take time since they've mentioned on their website that the idea is that protoss can sneak in with a Phase Prism somewhere and suddenly create a massive army out of nowhere. If it took a long time for the army to get build it would be fairly pointless ^^
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i have to watch gameplay movie one more time PS it's hard to argue when i'm at work and can't even watch it here:D
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MURICA15980 Posts
Really? 5 seconds is fast... maybe it speeds up as you get more gateways ;o
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On May 22 2007 02:49 nagash wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2007 02:46 lamarine wrote: ok... i think i can disappoint everybody... but.. remeber that in demo they said that they cheated mana and shields?.. i think they also cheated time production... so when u select warpgate and select "rally point" it will took time in real game before he actually appear on the battlefield
and i'm like 99.99% sure that is how it's done... No, because you can see it trigger the cooldown after they warp in the units. Particularly you can see the cooldown thingy going around the icons after they warp in the 16 zealots. It may very well be sped up - but it's still noticeable. Goes about half way in 5 seconds or something. Yeah, it has the clockwise color effect like with the Blink icon, except it shows on unit icons. Looks like Stalkers and Immortals have the same build time while zealots are about 1/4 faster.
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You know, there is really no reason why Terran production can't be exactly the same, working on cool downs rather then build times (except obviously no warping anywhere).
Pure speculation though of course. Who knows about Zerg. Will they even still have larvae?
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On May 22 2007 02:33 nagash wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2007 02:30 mahnini wrote: Hmm, maybe there's a cooldown affect instead of a generic unit automatically building, like your unit builds instantly but afterwards you have to wait a certain amount of time before being able to build another unit, something like a reverse building time effect. Yes that is how it appears to be working. My initial posting didn't take this into account, I was just so excited about finding this We don't know if the cooldowns for each unit are different or what though. No, now I think your initial idea was correct, haha. The only difference is it works like a spell but for every unit you make the gateway you made it out of resets the cooldown for every type of unit. Hmm, but then why would they need separate numbers per icon?
Edit: To make the idea more clear, the cooldown is for potentially units that you will be building, not for units that you have already built like my reverse build time idea.
Ex: Build zealot instantly, wait zealot build time, build any other unit instantly
Ex2: Wait for unit zealot build time, build zealot, wait for next desired unit build time to be reached, build unit, etc.
I think Ex2 is the way it will work.
This makes me think there are no queues at all because that would make Toss extremely imba, think about suiciding your 200/200 army but being able to build x4 that instantly. O.O
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On May 22 2007 03:01 nagash wrote: You know, there is really no reason why Terran production can't be exactly the same, working on cool downs rather then build times (except obviously no warping anywhere).
Pure speculation though of course. Who knows about Zerg. Will they even still have larvae?
I think the Terrans will keep their old way to build units while Zerg keep their Larvae.
This way the factions will have completly different ways to produce units :=). Alternatively they might have thought out some utterly awesome way for Terrans and Zerg to produce units and still be different from Protoss.
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On May 22 2007 03:02 mahnini wrote: No, now I think your initial idea was correct, haha. The only difference is it works like a spell but for every unit you make the gateway you made it out of resets the cooldown for every type of unit. Hmm, but then why would they need separate numbers per icon?
because different unit types have different cooldowns...maybe the gateway that built the first zealot is already loaded and can produce a new zealot. but no immortal, yet...
On May 22 2007 03:02 mahnini wrote: Edit: To make the idea more clear, the cooldown is for potentially units that you will be building, not for units that you have already built like my reverse build time idea.
Ex: Build zealot instantly, wait zealot build time, build any other unit instantly
Ex2: Wait for unit zealot build time, build zealot, wait for next desired unit build time to be reached, build unit, etc.
I think Ex2 is the way it will work.
This makes me think there are no queues at all because that would make Toss extremely imba, think about suiciding your 200/200 army but being able to build x4 that instantly. O.O
i would agree ex2 makes more sense...
i still go with my previous version: its some kind energy every gate has to load up (like mana) to build a unit (its the exact same system like cooldown, i just call it mana...). now the my question is: what is the max? it cant be 20 other wise a toss user can build 2 zealots out of one gate....just unfair....^^
and what about the update of an gateway to a warp gate? i have never read anything about that....??
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Omg, so much ado about nothing.
I'm pretty sure this is done like in DoW - first you produce something like it is produced normally, then this thing instead of going out goes to the building "hangar" from where you can deploy it anywhere. Momentary production is BS, Blizzard will NOT do this.
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United Arab Emirates5090 Posts
woa some good ideas here seriously, hope ppl at blizz is reading this =D
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On May 22 2007 06:11 -DaJ- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2007 03:02 mahnini wrote: No, now I think your initial idea was correct, haha. The only difference is it works like a spell but for every unit you make the gateway you made it out of resets the cooldown for every type of unit. Hmm, but then why would they need separate numbers per icon?
because different unit types have different cooldowns...maybe the gateway that built the first zealot is already loaded and can produce a new zealot. but no immortal, yet... Show nested quote +On May 22 2007 03:02 mahnini wrote: Edit: To make the idea more clear, the cooldown is for potentially units that you will be building, not for units that you have already built like my reverse build time idea.
Ex: Build zealot instantly, wait zealot build time, build any other unit instantly
Ex2: Wait for unit zealot build time, build zealot, wait for next desired unit build time to be reached, build unit, etc.
I think Ex2 is the way it will work.
This makes me think there are no queues at all because that would make Toss extremely imba, think about suiciding your 200/200 army but being able to build x4 that instantly. O.O
i would agree ex2 makes more sense... i still go with my previous version: its some kind energy every gate has to load up (like mana) to build a unit (its the exact same system like cooldown, i just call it mana...). now the my question is: what is the max? it cant be 20 other wise a toss user can build 2 zealots out of one gate....just unfair....^^ and what about the update of an gateway to a warp gate? i have never read anything about that....??
If you look at the gameplay video the way it works in the game is obviously example 1. The units will be produced for free in the backround and when you need them you can warp them in for their unit cost and a few seconds warp in time. We don't know how many units Protoss will be able to build out of each gate but based on the replay it seems like they can build one per gate.
On May 22 2007 06:23 BluzMan wrote: Omg, so much ado about nothing.
I'm pretty sure this is done like in DoW - first you produce something like it is produced normally, then this thing instead of going out goes to the building "hangar" from where you can deploy it anywhere. Momentary production is BS, Blizzard will NOT do this.
I'm pretty sure it won't work like in DoW. You'll be able to deploy them for their cost while they are produced for free in the background :=)
When used in combination with the mobile phase prisms, warp gates allow the protoss unprecedented flexibility in their force deployment. Warp gates can transport protoss warriors directly to the front lines, instantly send defenders to a beleaguered outpost, or rapidly build up attack groups in unexpected sectors. Enemy commanders must be constantly on the lookout for phase prisms penetrating their defensive zones or they can quickly find an entire protoss army deployed on their doorstep.
Seems to hint that Protoss will be able to build their units very fast.
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On May 22 2007 06:30 Zironic wrote: If you look at the gameplay video the way it works in the game is obviously example 1. The units will be produced for free in the backround and when you need them you can warp them in for their unit cost and a few seconds warp in time. We don't know how many units Protoss will be able to build out of each gate but based on the replay it seems like they can build one per gate.
the presenter was in the game already for about a minute. of course he could just start with the unit production. because they are "loaded" automatically.
produce those ~16 zealots that fast because he selected ~16 gateways, which allows him to build/warp those zealots....
i would agree with one of the other posters, that they just adapted the "loading"-time for the demo...
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On May 22 2007 02:14 HiddenTalent wrote: Hrm, Im confused now.... :/
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I can't even begin to say how brilliant of an idea this would be if this is the case.
This system singlehandely solves both the plight of the competitive community and the newb - to the newb, this seems like a great thing - you always can get units even if you don't pay attention, but in reality it also rewards speed and "macro".
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In order to maximize production you would have to manually go and build the units every cooldown yup :=)
The map editor will probably be able to modify the cap on the units that can be in the warp gate at once so they can create UMS maps where you warp in tons of units at once from one gate
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Sweden33719 Posts
I'm not sure I've understood exactly how it works, but if it's how I think it is, that's SO BRILLIANT.
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Belgium8305 Posts
I understand the concept being explained here, and it seems to be consistent with what can be seen in the presentation... I'm gonna check it out again myself in a bit to make sure.
This really is a cool and innovative way of changing things around, and it makes sense, too. I was already wondering how warpgates were gonna be effective if the units couldn't be put on hold in some way, and this solves that problem beautifully. Way to go, Blizzard.
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Sounds like an interesting developement, but I will have to wait to hear from Blizzard before I cream my pants.
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I didn't have time to read the whole thread but is it just me who thinks this concept sucks? Of course you now have to 'release' each unit (more or less) separately but you can do that instantly. A bad player will no longer realize that he just lost a battle and forgot to reproduce his army while he is being run over. The gateways will produce zealots on their own, so you can never forget to produce units. So basically you still have to do about the same work as in BW but you can now chose the time almost freely. This of course requires less multitasking. Multitasking is only important if important 'events' collide in time.
edit: I hope BluzMan is right.
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This actually sounds really cool if it works how people seem to think it does. Really goes with their thing of making the races even more different.
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On May 22 2007 12:04 Asta wrote: I didn't have time to read the whole thread but is it just me who thinks this concept sucks? Of course you now have to 'release' each unit (more or less) separately but you can do that instantly. A bad player will no longer realize that he just lost a battle and forgot to reproduce his army while he is being run over. The gateways will produce zealots on their own, so you can never forget to produce units. So basically you still have to do about the same work as in BW but you can now chose the time almost freely. This of course requires less multitasking. Multitasking is only important if important 'events' collide in time.
edit: I hope BluzMan is right.
I think you somehow managed to completly fail to understand anything that has been said.
The gateways will (as it seems on the video) produce ONE, UNO Zealot until you choose to pay for it and warp it in. This means if you don't pay attention to your production the gateways will just stand idle with that one Zealot waiting to be warped in.
Since you this way can't queue units at all you have to pay even more attention to your unit production then before.
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4492 Posts
OK, I've analyzed the videos myself and I'd like to add a little correction as to how I see things.
It seems to me that the Warp Gates are indeed producing units automatically, just like as if it was a skill with a cooldown, and you can also warp the completed units anywhere in your pylon range (whether or not it has to be connected I dunno - in the demo, the prisms were in the range of the pylons atop of the platform, so that doesn't support either theory, nor disproves neither of them). However, I think the system goes a bit further than that, and this is my assumption:
The number of the Warp Gates a player has determines the amount of units "stacked" in queue and ready to be deployed, as well as the build time. Let's say you have 1 Warp Gate. The building time for a zealot would be 60 secs, for a stalk or an imma it would be 70 secs. Now, as soon as you build your Warp Gate (or upgrd from a Gateway rather) the counter goes down, and as 60 secs go by, you have a (1) next to your zealot picture, signifying you can now deploy a zealot. After 70 secs have passed, you get a (1) next to both the imma and the stalk so you can now deploy 1 of those (or choose to deploy the zealot having wasted 10 seconds of valuable building time).
Now, if you have 2 gateways, I imagine the build time (the spell cooldown time if you wish) would be halved. Building a zealot now would take only 30 secs, and if 30 secs have passed you get a (1) near your zealot picture, if 60 secs have passed you get a (2).
What I base this upon, is that in essence, it would still enable the player to produce the same amount of units in the same period of time, except being able to choose when to deploy them, which would be necessary with this system, since you can't queue any units anymore, just like the Zerg can't either. Another thing is, if you watch the cooldown rate for the zealots with 16 gateways, it seemed to be freaking fast, so my assumption would be that that is because the building time was essentially 1/16th of the original.
Of course these are all but guesses, but this is how I see the system ATM.
-Mynock
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On May 22 2007 12:25 Mynock wrote: OK, I've analyzed the videos myself and I'd like to add a little correction as to how I see things.
It seems to me that the Warp Gates are indeed producing units automatically, just like as if it was a skill with a cooldown, and you can also warp the completed units anywhere in your pylon range (whether or not it has to be connected I dunno - in the demo, the prisms were in the range of the pylons atop of the platform, so that doesn't support either theory, nor disproves neither of them). However, I think the system goes a bit further than that, and this is my assumption:
The number of the Warp Gates a player has determines the amount of units "stacked" in queue and ready to be deployed, as well as the build time. Let's say you have 1 Warp Gate. The building time for a zealot would be 60 secs, for a stalk or an imma it would be 70 secs. Now, as soon as you build your Warp Gate (or upgrd from a Gateway rather) the counter goes down, and as 60 secs go by, you have a (1) next to your zealot picture, signifying you can now deploy a zealot. After 70 secs have passed, you get a (1) next to both the imma and the stalk so you can now deploy 1 of those (or choose to deploy the zealot having wasted 10 seconds of valuable building time).
Now, if you have 2 gateways, I imagine the build time (the spell cooldown time if you wish) would be halved. Building a zealot now would take only 30 secs, and if 30 secs have passed you get a (1) near your zealot picture, if 60 secs have passed you get a (2).
What I base this upon, is that in essence, it would still enable the player to produce the same amount of units in the same period of time, except being able to choose when to deploy them, which would be necessary with this system, since you can't queue any units anymore, just like the Zerg can't either. Another thing is, if you watch the cooldown rate for the zealots with 16 gateways, it seemed to be freaking fast, so my assumption would be that that is because the building time was essentially 1/16th of the original.
Of course these are all but guesses, but this is how I see the system ATM.
-Mynock Yeah, I think you are right, but this was already stated in this thread, but not in this detail. And I think it is a really great idea.
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Thats freaking cool!! I just hope this does not make protoss too powerful at later stages. Imagin being able to have pylons at important places around the map and warping in 16 zealots every few seconds around the map lol. Then again I'm sure much like normal BWs if you let your opponent get the economy to support 16 gates your most likely screwed anyway lol.
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On May 22 2007 06:23 BluzMan wrote: Omg, so much ado about nothing.
I'm pretty sure this is done like in DoW - first you produce something like it is produced normally, then this thing instead of going out goes to the building "hangar" from where you can deploy it anywhere. Momentary production is BS, Blizzard will NOT do this.
That's exactly what I'm thinking.. Too much commotion into build times and queues and mana... BluzMan pointed out the most obvious approach into how the warp gates work..
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On May 22 2007 13:23 ReTr0[p.S] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2007 06:23 BluzMan wrote: Omg, so much ado about nothing.
I'm pretty sure this is done like in DoW - first you produce something like it is produced normally, then this thing instead of going out goes to the building "hangar" from where you can deploy it anywhere. Momentary production is BS, Blizzard will NOT do this. That's exactly what I'm thinking.. Too much commotion into build times and queues and mana... BluzMan pointed out the most obvious approach into how the warp gates work..
I disagree and think Mynocks way is alot more logical and also happens to be the way it works in the video.
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I disagree with Mynocks theory. I think this is the case because the gateways will most likely have some kind of building animation, and I think a system like this would benefit from graphical feedback. Also that kind of system have the potential to be seriously imbalanced in some situations, specifically if the dark templar is still in the game. The ability to pop out a unit every 5 seconds would be huge distraction to the enemy. Basically you could pop out and A move units all over the map easily while the enemey is forced to respond to each one to save his workers. Finally such a system (speed depending on total number of gateways) would mean that there would have to be separate systems for warpgates and normal gates, otherwise you could build just 1 warpgate and intead of deploying 15 zealots at your base and 1 zealot in the enemy base at your prism you click once every 5 seconds when the cooldown resets and get the same ammount of zealots in the enemy base without buying more than one warpgate (of course the upgrade could be a tier 3 done at the nexus instead of all the gates individually and then mynocs theory is much more plausible.)
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On May 22 2007 13:48 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: I disagree with Mynocks theory. I think this is the case because the gateways will most likely have some kind of building animation, and I think a system like this would benefit from graphical feedback. Also that kind of system have the potential to be seriously imbalanced in some situations, specifically if the dark templar is still in the game. The ability to pop out a unit every 5 seconds would be huge distraction to the enemy. Basically you could pop out and A move units all over the map easily while the enemey is forced to respond to each one to save his workers. Finally such a system (speed depending on total number of gateways) would mean that there would have to be separate systems for warpgates and normal gates, otherwise you could build just 1 warpgate and intead of deploying 15 zealots at your base and 1 zealot in the enemy base at your prism you click once every 5 seconds when the cooldown resets and get the same ammount of zealots in the enemy base without buying more than one warpgate (of course the upgrade could be a tier 3 done at the nexus instead of all the gates individually and then mynocs theory is much more plausible.)
The warpgates and Gateways are different buildings so they won't share the same cooldowns
I don't think single units popping up every 5 sec within pylon territory would be that effective, would probably be more effective to wait and deploy them in large numbers. Also it's silly making balancing arguments based on units that havn't even been shown yet.
You would get your graphical feedback while the gateways cooldown.
What I'm unsure of though is if all the gateways will cooldown at the same time so you can spawn 16 Zealots every 10 seconds or if they share cooldown so it would become cooldown/gateways=gathered cooldown.
Based on the fact that you seem to actually have to select the buildings as a group to spawn from all of them I think they cooldown individually.
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United States7166 Posts
after seeing this and thinking about the old unit production system for Zerg, I'm eager to see what kind of new system they have
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On May 22 2007 01:48 Klogon wrote: too late ;D
And good job noticing this in the first place, nagash. We were all bitching at each other without realizing this awesome concept... especially because Blizzard didn't clearly define it for us. Not awesome...I don't want my glorious Protoss race to become that of the infidel Zerg!!!
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On May 22 2007 13:55 Raist wrote: after seeing this and thinking about the old unit production system for Zerg, I'm eager to see what kind of new system they have
I suspect the Zerg will have a similar production system as they currently have. It makes sense from a story perspective and is very unique and functional.
The protoss have always warped in their units story wise, now they'll do it game mechanicly too :=)
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Correct me if I am wrong, but with the warping system, could one use a pylon or phase prism right off of a cliff, while the range is on the upper terrain, and still warp units in?
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On May 22 2007 14:03 SayaSP wrote: Correct me if I am wrong, but with the warping system, could one use a pylon or phase prism right off of a cliff, while the range is on the upper terrain, and still warp units in?
I think you would need line of sight, but yes, that is what the Warp Gates are meant to be able to do.
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On May 22 2007 12:11 Zironic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2007 12:04 Asta wrote: I didn't have time to read the whole thread but is it just me who thinks this concept sucks? Of course you now have to 'release' each unit (more or less) separately but you can do that instantly. A bad player will no longer realize that he just lost a battle and forgot to reproduce his army while he is being run over. The gateways will produce zealots on their own, so you can never forget to produce units. So basically you still have to do about the same work as in BW but you can now chose the time almost freely. This of course requires less multitasking. Multitasking is only important if important 'events' collide in time.
edit: I hope BluzMan is right. I think you somehow managed to completly fail to understand anything that has been said. The gateways will (as it seems on the video) produce ONE, UNO Zealot until you choose to pay for it and warp it in. This means if you don't pay attention to your production the gateways will just stand idle with that one Zealot waiting to be warped in. Since you this way can't queue units at all you have to pay even more attention to your unit production then before.
Well, that's how I understood it at first. But that's not how it is going to work. Just try to imagine what will happen if you have like 20 Gates and the Build Time for a Zealot is only 5% of what we are used to. And now imagine what would happen if you pulled a Foru and built 50 Gateways. Also in the Gameplay video you can see that there are 4 Stalkers ready to be built and he builds them instantaneously. No, there definitely is a stack, like i DoW and this sucks. Sucks a lot.
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4492 Posts
On May 22 2007 13:48 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: I disagree with Mynocks theory. I think this is the case because the gateways will most likely have some kind of building animation, and I think a system like this would benefit from graphical feedback. Also that kind of system have the potential to be seriously imbalanced in some situations, specifically if the dark templar is still in the game. The ability to pop out a unit every 5 seconds would be huge distraction to the enemy. Basically you could pop out and A move units all over the map easily while the enemey is forced to respond to each one to save his workers. Finally such a system (speed depending on total number of gateways) would mean that there would have to be separate systems for warpgates and normal gates, otherwise you could build just 1 warpgate and intead of deploying 15 zealots at your base and 1 zealot in the enemy base at your prism you click once every 5 seconds when the cooldown resets and get the same ammount of zealots in the enemy base without buying more than one warpgate (of course the upgrade could be a tier 3 done at the nexus instead of all the gates individually and then mynocs theory is much more plausible.)
Well, I think it could be balanced fairly well if every Gateway needed an individual upgrade to become a Warp Gate, and that upgrade costing quite a penny. It would also add to the macro aspect, since you'd only have these kind of ground units warping in from Warp Gates, the rest of the units (air, high tech, templars, etc...), plus the regular Gateways would have to be controlled individually... Besides, upgrading the Gateways would take some time I suppose, so it would have a bit of the "I'll add machine shop to my other 4 facts now, and then will start spamming tanks out of them" effect, which also halts the unit production for a while.
Well, if things really work this way, I'm seeing SO many possibilities for different strategies... Would be amazing
Also, keep in mind - we don't know what T and Z has to say about these new mechanics, so let's wait and see...
-Mynock
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On May 22 2007 14:12 Asta wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2007 12:11 Zironic wrote:On May 22 2007 12:04 Asta wrote: I didn't have time to read the whole thread but is it just me who thinks this concept sucks? Of course you now have to 'release' each unit (more or less) separately but you can do that instantly. A bad player will no longer realize that he just lost a battle and forgot to reproduce his army while he is being run over. The gateways will produce zealots on their own, so you can never forget to produce units. So basically you still have to do about the same work as in BW but you can now chose the time almost freely. This of course requires less multitasking. Multitasking is only important if important 'events' collide in time.
edit: I hope BluzMan is right. I think you somehow managed to completly fail to understand anything that has been said. The gateways will (as it seems on the video) produce ONE, UNO Zealot until you choose to pay for it and warp it in. This means if you don't pay attention to your production the gateways will just stand idle with that one Zealot waiting to be warped in. Since you this way can't queue units at all you have to pay even more attention to your unit production then before. Well, that's how I understood it at first. But that's not how it is going to work. Just try to imagine what will happen if you have like 20 Gates and the Build Time for a Zealot is only 5% of what we are used to. And now imagine what would happen if you pulled a Foru and built 50 Gateways. Also in the Gameplay video you can see that there are 4 Stalkers ready to be built and he builds them instantaneously. No, there definitely is a stack, like i DoW and this sucks. Sucks a lot.
I think the gates will cooldown individually because otherwise as some people have pointed out it would work out very strangely. I think it will be more like with one gate you can teleport in one Zealot every 10 seconds, with 20 gates you can teleport in 20 Zealots every 20 seconds.
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On May 22 2007 13:54 Zironic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2007 13:48 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: I disagree with Mynocks theory. I think this is the case because the gateways will most likely have some kind of building animation, and I think a system like this would benefit from graphical feedback. Also that kind of system have the potential to be seriously imbalanced in some situations, specifically if the dark templar is still in the game. The ability to pop out a unit every 5 seconds would be huge distraction to the enemy. Basically you could pop out and A move units all over the map easily while the enemey is forced to respond to each one to save his workers. Finally such a system (speed depending on total number of gateways) would mean that there would have to be separate systems for warpgates and normal gates, otherwise you could build just 1 warpgate and intead of deploying 15 zealots at your base and 1 zealot in the enemy base at your prism you click once every 5 seconds when the cooldown resets and get the same ammount of zealots in the enemy base without buying more than one warpgate (of course the upgrade could be a tier 3 done at the nexus instead of all the gates individually and then mynocs theory is much more plausible.) The warpgates and Gateways are different buildings so they won't share the same cooldowns I don't think single units popping up every 5 sec within pylon territory would be that effective, would probably be more effective to wait and deploy them in large numbers. Also it's silly making balancing arguments based on units that havn't even been shown yet. You would get your graphical feedback while the gateways cooldown. What I'm unsure of though is if all the gateways will cooldown at the same time so you can spawn 16 Zealots every 10 seconds or if they share cooldown so it would become cooldown/gateways=gathered cooldown. Based on the fact that you seem to actually have to select the buildings as a group to spawn from all of them I think they cooldown individually.
Yeah that's my point. It would be annoying having to switch between two different systems. And yes, single units popping up every 5 seconds could be that effective. I mean Bisu's entire strat against Saviour hinged on his ability to overload his multitasking with more or less single units and sairs. Imagine having to deal with units constantly, it could cripple even a pro player.
Also I think DT is one of the more likely units to be reintroduced, at least looking at the concept art (not to mention the story part of the game...)
I also think that since you need to select all gateways at the same time to spawn they have individual cooldown. Otherwise the best approach would be a sidebar with a timer for all the units, I think that feels a little bit to much like CnC for Blizzard to be entirely comfortable with it.
Still credits to them for coming up with such an awsome idea!
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On May 22 2007 14:19 Zironic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2007 14:12 Asta wrote:On May 22 2007 12:11 Zironic wrote:On May 22 2007 12:04 Asta wrote: I didn't have time to read the whole thread but is it just me who thinks this concept sucks? Of course you now have to 'release' each unit (more or less) separately but you can do that instantly. A bad player will no longer realize that he just lost a battle and forgot to reproduce his army while he is being run over. The gateways will produce zealots on their own, so you can never forget to produce units. So basically you still have to do about the same work as in BW but you can now chose the time almost freely. This of course requires less multitasking. Multitasking is only important if important 'events' collide in time.
edit: I hope BluzMan is right. I think you somehow managed to completly fail to understand anything that has been said. The gateways will (as it seems on the video) produce ONE, UNO Zealot until you choose to pay for it and warp it in. This means if you don't pay attention to your production the gateways will just stand idle with that one Zealot waiting to be warped in. Since you this way can't queue units at all you have to pay even more attention to your unit production then before. Well, that's how I understood it at first. But that's not how it is going to work. Just try to imagine what will happen if you have like 20 Gates and the Build Time for a Zealot is only 5% of what we are used to. And now imagine what would happen if you pulled a Foru and built 50 Gateways. Also in the Gameplay video you can see that there are 4 Stalkers ready to be built and he builds them instantaneously. No, there definitely is a stack, like i DoW and this sucks. Sucks a lot. I think the gates will cooldown individually because otherwise as some people have pointed out it would work out very strangely. I think it will be more like with one gate you can teleport in one Zealot every 10 seconds, with 20 gates you can teleport in 20 Zealots every 20 seconds.
Ok, nevermind my post above if that's the case. I'm not sure yet though, because you can see the cooldown go down while 16 gates are selected. That doesn't really make sense if each gate has an individual cooldown. On the other hand, it would explain the coincidence that there are 16 zealots ready to be built from 16 gates.
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Pylons/Phase Prisms are imbalanced. Manner pylon not only fucks up your mining operation but it allows zealots to pop up there...
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On May 22 2007 14:23 Asta wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2007 14:19 Zironic wrote:On May 22 2007 14:12 Asta wrote:On May 22 2007 12:11 Zironic wrote:On May 22 2007 12:04 Asta wrote: I didn't have time to read the whole thread but is it just me who thinks this concept sucks? Of course you now have to 'release' each unit (more or less) separately but you can do that instantly. A bad player will no longer realize that he just lost a battle and forgot to reproduce his army while he is being run over. The gateways will produce zealots on their own, so you can never forget to produce units. So basically you still have to do about the same work as in BW but you can now chose the time almost freely. This of course requires less multitasking. Multitasking is only important if important 'events' collide in time.
edit: I hope BluzMan is right. I think you somehow managed to completly fail to understand anything that has been said. The gateways will (as it seems on the video) produce ONE, UNO Zealot until you choose to pay for it and warp it in. This means if you don't pay attention to your production the gateways will just stand idle with that one Zealot waiting to be warped in. Since you this way can't queue units at all you have to pay even more attention to your unit production then before. Well, that's how I understood it at first. But that's not how it is going to work. Just try to imagine what will happen if you have like 20 Gates and the Build Time for a Zealot is only 5% of what we are used to. And now imagine what would happen if you pulled a Foru and built 50 Gateways. Also in the Gameplay video you can see that there are 4 Stalkers ready to be built and he builds them instantaneously. No, there definitely is a stack, like i DoW and this sucks. Sucks a lot. I think the gates will cooldown individually because otherwise as some people have pointed out it would work out very strangely. I think it will be more like with one gate you can teleport in one Zealot every 10 seconds, with 20 gates you can teleport in 20 Zealots every 20 seconds. Ok, nevermind my post above if that's the case. I'm not sure yet though, because you can see the cooldown go down while 16 gates are selected. That doesn't really make sense if each gate has an individual cooldown. On the other hand, it would explain the coincidence that there are 16 zealots ready to be built from 16 gates.
You'll be seeing the cooldown of the gate closest to complete a new Zealot I imagine. I think I have seen a similar system somewhere before.
On May 22 2007 14:26 CharlieMurphy wrote: Pylons/Phase Prisms are imbalanced. Manner pylon not only fucks up your mining operation but it allows zealots to pop up there...
It's silly to claim something is imba when you barely know anything about the game. We only have half the units of one race. That's like 1/6th of the game.
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On May 22 2007 12:25 Mynock wrote: OK, I've analyzed the videos myself and I'd like to add a little correction as to how I see things.
It seems to me that the Warp Gates are indeed producing units automatically, just like as if it was a skill with a cooldown, and you can also warp the completed units anywhere in your pylon range (whether or not it has to be connected I dunno - in the demo, the prisms were in the range of the pylons atop of the platform, so that doesn't support either theory, nor disproves neither of them). However, I think the system goes a bit further than that, and this is my assumption:
The number of the Warp Gates a player has determines the amount of units "stacked" in queue and ready to be deployed, as well as the build time. Let's say you have 1 Warp Gate. The building time for a zealot would be 60 secs, for a stalk or an imma it would be 70 secs. Now, as soon as you build your Warp Gate (or upgrd from a Gateway rather) the counter goes down, and as 60 secs go by, you have a (1) next to your zealot picture, signifying you can now deploy a zealot. After 70 secs have passed, you get a (1) next to both the imma and the stalk so you can now deploy 1 of those (or choose to deploy the zealot having wasted 10 seconds of valuable building time).
Now, if you have 2 gateways, I imagine the build time (the spell cooldown time if you wish) would be halved. Building a zealot now would take only 30 secs, and if 30 secs have passed you get a (1) near your zealot picture, if 60 secs have passed you get a (2).
What I base this upon, is that in essence, it would still enable the player to produce the same amount of units in the same period of time, except being able to choose when to deploy them, which would be necessary with this system, since you can't queue any units anymore, just like the Zerg can't either. Another thing is, if you watch the cooldown rate for the zealots with 16 gateways, it seemed to be freaking fast, so my assumption would be that that is because the building time was essentially 1/16th of the original.
Of course these are all but guesses, but this is how I see the system ATM.
-Mynock
From how I understand the gameplay demo, I have to disagree.
Know how zerg macro is done right now? The larvae pop out automatically, and its the job of the player to ensure a minimum of idle larvae.
Here is how I see it.
Toss builds a warpgate. I will use your 60 and 70 numbers. The building automatically begins building the unit as soon as it is built (no cost).
When the unit is finished, the player must select somewhere on the grid to place the new unit. When the unit is placed, the construction is restarted and the player is charged.
More warp gates just means more units can be placed at once: times will remain the same.
Macro comes in the same way (or roughly similar) as zerg macro currently does - not through directly producing units, but by making sure there are no idle gateways.
I would define an idle gateway as a gateway finished construction of a unit and waiting for that unit to be placed.
More gateways will require more attention - Think of them as buckets continually being filled with water. It is up to the player to empty the buckets as efficiently as possible - As the number of gateways increase, the player must put more effort in to reduce idle times.
Flow Chart:
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This will make the gameplay so much cooler for protoss I can see before myself two different ways to use the warpgates.
If it isnt like Mynock said and all warpgates recharge at the same time then either you build exactly the amount of warpgates/gateways you need and always build out of all of them or you have more gateways/warpgates than you actualy need so that you always have a few standing by ready to spawn in units in expantions under attack etc. The player will have to chose if that extra mobility is worth those extra gateways.
If it is like Mynock said and the warpgates recharge one at a time in b/g time where b is the buildtime of the unit and g is the number of gates. Then players might want to stay near the end of the total gateway cooldown so that they spawn a few units when 18/20 gates are recharged... never using the last 10 gates unless an expo or something is attacked. They can even stay on near 0 minerals and still on a high recharge count like 14/20 when all minerals are used, then cancle a building being built or a research to be able to pump out those last 14 units in case they are urgently needed somewhere.
Either way it will make you have to stay near the limit all the time and always weighing the pros and cons of haveing too many/exactly enough gates and producing units early or saving them in queue.
Other than that I can see lots of ways the prisms and pylons can be used in combat. Think of an enemy expo with a cliff next to it... Fly a prism and land it above the cliff out of his vision then bam... 6 zealots in his mineral line. Or say you are about to attack. Before you are ready to attack let your scouting probe build a hidden pylon outside you opponents base that finnishes just as you attack. That way your reinforcements can spawn right outside his base.
*EDIT* After another look at the video im not so sure I believe its like you say Mynock :S The time you get to see the recharge after the last stalker has been built is like 0,5 sec. I cant judge if the recharge is moving faster or slower there than when the 16 gates are selected.
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On May 22 2007 14:44 fusionsdf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2007 12:25 Mynock wrote: OK, I've analyzed the videos myself and I'd like to add a little correction as to how I see things.
It seems to me that the Warp Gates are indeed producing units automatically, just like as if it was a skill with a cooldown, and you can also warp the completed units anywhere in your pylon range (whether or not it has to be connected I dunno - in the demo, the prisms were in the range of the pylons atop of the platform, so that doesn't support either theory, nor disproves neither of them). However, I think the system goes a bit further than that, and this is my assumption:
The number of the Warp Gates a player has determines the amount of units "stacked" in queue and ready to be deployed, as well as the build time. Let's say you have 1 Warp Gate. The building time for a zealot would be 60 secs, for a stalk or an imma it would be 70 secs. Now, as soon as you build your Warp Gate (or upgrd from a Gateway rather) the counter goes down, and as 60 secs go by, you have a (1) next to your zealot picture, signifying you can now deploy a zealot. After 70 secs have passed, you get a (1) next to both the imma and the stalk so you can now deploy 1 of those (or choose to deploy the zealot having wasted 10 seconds of valuable building time).
Now, if you have 2 gateways, I imagine the build time (the spell cooldown time if you wish) would be halved. Building a zealot now would take only 30 secs, and if 30 secs have passed you get a (1) near your zealot picture, if 60 secs have passed you get a (2).
What I base this upon, is that in essence, it would still enable the player to produce the same amount of units in the same period of time, except being able to choose when to deploy them, which would be necessary with this system, since you can't queue any units anymore, just like the Zerg can't either. Another thing is, if you watch the cooldown rate for the zealots with 16 gateways, it seemed to be freaking fast, so my assumption would be that that is because the building time was essentially 1/16th of the original.
Of course these are all but guesses, but this is how I see the system ATM.
-Mynock + Show Spoiler +From how I understand the gameplay demo, I have to disagree. Know how zerg macro is done right now? The larvae pop out automatically, and its the job of the player to ensure a minimum of idle larvae. Here is how I see it. Toss builds a warpgate. I will use your 60 and 70 numbers. The building automatically begins building the unit as soon as it is built (no cost). When the unit is finished, the player must select somewhere on the grid to place the new unit. When the unit is placed, the construction is restarted and the player is charged. More warp gates just means more units can be placed at once: times will remain the same. Macro comes in the same way (or roughly similar) as zerg macro currently does - not through directly producing units, but by making sure there are no idle gateways. I would define an idle gateway as a gateway finished construction of a unit and waiting for that unit to be placed. More gateways will require more attention - Think of them as buckets continually being filled with water. It is up to the player to empty the buckets as efficiently as possible - As the number of gateways increase, the player must put more effort in to reduce idle times. Flow Chart:
If the units start building if you tell them to but for no cost instead of having a cooldown and then selecting units, then why is it in the video the player can select to spawn in either zeals or stalkers and both have the same number at their icon, both going down after each stalker is summoned until both reach zero where both automaticly start recharging. Your version just doesnt fit with what the movie is showing.
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On May 22 2007 01:57 niteReloaded wrote: this is typical for blizzard, everyone is bitching about "macro not being macro if u can select multiple buildings". Then they come with this briliant idea and everyone is like :o
They come with the solution from a totally different angle and im loving it. <3
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On May 22 2007 15:22 DrainX wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2007 14:44 fusionsdf wrote:On May 22 2007 12:25 Mynock wrote: OK, I've analyzed the videos myself and I'd like to add a little correction as to how I see things.
It seems to me that the Warp Gates are indeed producing units automatically, just like as if it was a skill with a cooldown, and you can also warp the completed units anywhere in your pylon range (whether or not it has to be connected I dunno - in the demo, the prisms were in the range of the pylons atop of the platform, so that doesn't support either theory, nor disproves neither of them). However, I think the system goes a bit further than that, and this is my assumption:
The number of the Warp Gates a player has determines the amount of units "stacked" in queue and ready to be deployed, as well as the build time. Let's say you have 1 Warp Gate. The building time for a zealot would be 60 secs, for a stalk or an imma it would be 70 secs. Now, as soon as you build your Warp Gate (or upgrd from a Gateway rather) the counter goes down, and as 60 secs go by, you have a (1) next to your zealot picture, signifying you can now deploy a zealot. After 70 secs have passed, you get a (1) next to both the imma and the stalk so you can now deploy 1 of those (or choose to deploy the zealot having wasted 10 seconds of valuable building time).
Now, if you have 2 gateways, I imagine the build time (the spell cooldown time if you wish) would be halved. Building a zealot now would take only 30 secs, and if 30 secs have passed you get a (1) near your zealot picture, if 60 secs have passed you get a (2).
What I base this upon, is that in essence, it would still enable the player to produce the same amount of units in the same period of time, except being able to choose when to deploy them, which would be necessary with this system, since you can't queue any units anymore, just like the Zerg can't either. Another thing is, if you watch the cooldown rate for the zealots with 16 gateways, it seemed to be freaking fast, so my assumption would be that that is because the building time was essentially 1/16th of the original.
Of course these are all but guesses, but this is how I see the system ATM.
-Mynock + Show Spoiler +From how I understand the gameplay demo, I have to disagree. Know how zerg macro is done right now? The larvae pop out automatically, and its the job of the player to ensure a minimum of idle larvae. Here is how I see it. Toss builds a warpgate. I will use your 60 and 70 numbers. The building automatically begins building the unit as soon as it is built (no cost). When the unit is finished, the player must select somewhere on the grid to place the new unit. When the unit is placed, the construction is restarted and the player is charged. More warp gates just means more units can be placed at once: times will remain the same. Macro comes in the same way (or roughly similar) as zerg macro currently does - not through directly producing units, but by making sure there are no idle gateways. I would define an idle gateway as a gateway finished construction of a unit and waiting for that unit to be placed. More gateways will require more attention - Think of them as buckets continually being filled with water. It is up to the player to empty the buckets as efficiently as possible - As the number of gateways increase, the player must put more effort in to reduce idle times. Flow Chart: If the units start building if you tell them to but for no cost instead of having a cooldown and then selecting units, then why is it in the video the player can select to spawn in either zeals or stalkers and both have the same number at their icon, both going down after each stalker is summoned until both reach zero where both automaticly start recharging. Your version just doesnt fit with what the movie is showing.
I've rewatched the video and I still think I am correct.
~ 5:20 when he warps the Stalkers in from a Warp Gate There are 4 Warp Gates selected, and each mini icon on the right of the HUD shows there being 4 units available. That is, you can select to create 4 zealots, 4 stalkers, 4 immortals or any combination of the above INSTANTLY (if you have the resources). Once the available numbers reach 0 you can clearly see the cooldown/build timer on the icons!
would fit in with my view
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On May 22 2007 15:54 fusionsdf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2007 15:22 DrainX wrote:On May 22 2007 14:44 fusionsdf wrote:On May 22 2007 12:25 Mynock wrote: OK, I've analyzed the videos myself and I'd like to add a little correction as to how I see things.
It seems to me that the Warp Gates are indeed producing units automatically, just like as if it was a skill with a cooldown, and you can also warp the completed units anywhere in your pylon range (whether or not it has to be connected I dunno - in the demo, the prisms were in the range of the pylons atop of the platform, so that doesn't support either theory, nor disproves neither of them). However, I think the system goes a bit further than that, and this is my assumption:
The number of the Warp Gates a player has determines the amount of units "stacked" in queue and ready to be deployed, as well as the build time. Let's say you have 1 Warp Gate. The building time for a zealot would be 60 secs, for a stalk or an imma it would be 70 secs. Now, as soon as you build your Warp Gate (or upgrd from a Gateway rather) the counter goes down, and as 60 secs go by, you have a (1) next to your zealot picture, signifying you can now deploy a zealot. After 70 secs have passed, you get a (1) next to both the imma and the stalk so you can now deploy 1 of those (or choose to deploy the zealot having wasted 10 seconds of valuable building time).
Now, if you have 2 gateways, I imagine the build time (the spell cooldown time if you wish) would be halved. Building a zealot now would take only 30 secs, and if 30 secs have passed you get a (1) near your zealot picture, if 60 secs have passed you get a (2).
What I base this upon, is that in essence, it would still enable the player to produce the same amount of units in the same period of time, except being able to choose when to deploy them, which would be necessary with this system, since you can't queue any units anymore, just like the Zerg can't either. Another thing is, if you watch the cooldown rate for the zealots with 16 gateways, it seemed to be freaking fast, so my assumption would be that that is because the building time was essentially 1/16th of the original.
Of course these are all but guesses, but this is how I see the system ATM.
-Mynock + Show Spoiler +From how I understand the gameplay demo, I have to disagree. Know how zerg macro is done right now? The larvae pop out automatically, and its the job of the player to ensure a minimum of idle larvae. Here is how I see it. Toss builds a warpgate. I will use your 60 and 70 numbers. The building automatically begins building the unit as soon as it is built (no cost). When the unit is finished, the player must select somewhere on the grid to place the new unit. When the unit is placed, the construction is restarted and the player is charged. More warp gates just means more units can be placed at once: times will remain the same. Macro comes in the same way (or roughly similar) as zerg macro currently does - not through directly producing units, but by making sure there are no idle gateways. I would define an idle gateway as a gateway finished construction of a unit and waiting for that unit to be placed. More gateways will require more attention - Think of them as buckets continually being filled with water. It is up to the player to empty the buckets as efficiently as possible - As the number of gateways increase, the player must put more effort in to reduce idle times. Flow Chart: If the units start building if you tell them to but for no cost instead of having a cooldown and then selecting units, then why is it in the video the player can select to spawn in either zeals or stalkers and both have the same number at their icon, both going down after each stalker is summoned until both reach zero where both automaticly start recharging. Your version just doesnt fit with what the movie is showing. I've rewatched the video and I still think I am correct. Show nested quote + ~ 5:20 when he warps the Stalkers in from a Warp Gate There are 4 Warp Gates selected, and each mini icon on the right of the HUD shows there being 4 units available. That is, you can select to create 4 zealots, 4 stalkers, 4 immortals or any combination of the above INSTANTLY (if you have the resources). Once the available numbers reach 0 you can clearly see the cooldown/build timer on the icons!
would fit in with my view
You two are not contradicting eachother...
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I thought he just said I was :O
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United States7166 Posts
On May 22 2007 15:54 fusionsdf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2007 15:22 DrainX wrote:On May 22 2007 14:44 fusionsdf wrote:On May 22 2007 12:25 Mynock wrote: OK, I've analyzed the videos myself and I'd like to add a little correction as to how I see things.
It seems to me that the Warp Gates are indeed producing units automatically, just like as if it was a skill with a cooldown, and you can also warp the completed units anywhere in your pylon range (whether or not it has to be connected I dunno - in the demo, the prisms were in the range of the pylons atop of the platform, so that doesn't support either theory, nor disproves neither of them). However, I think the system goes a bit further than that, and this is my assumption:
The number of the Warp Gates a player has determines the amount of units "stacked" in queue and ready to be deployed, as well as the build time. Let's say you have 1 Warp Gate. The building time for a zealot would be 60 secs, for a stalk or an imma it would be 70 secs. Now, as soon as you build your Warp Gate (or upgrd from a Gateway rather) the counter goes down, and as 60 secs go by, you have a (1) next to your zealot picture, signifying you can now deploy a zealot. After 70 secs have passed, you get a (1) next to both the imma and the stalk so you can now deploy 1 of those (or choose to deploy the zealot having wasted 10 seconds of valuable building time).
Now, if you have 2 gateways, I imagine the build time (the spell cooldown time if you wish) would be halved. Building a zealot now would take only 30 secs, and if 30 secs have passed you get a (1) near your zealot picture, if 60 secs have passed you get a (2).
What I base this upon, is that in essence, it would still enable the player to produce the same amount of units in the same period of time, except being able to choose when to deploy them, which would be necessary with this system, since you can't queue any units anymore, just like the Zerg can't either. Another thing is, if you watch the cooldown rate for the zealots with 16 gateways, it seemed to be freaking fast, so my assumption would be that that is because the building time was essentially 1/16th of the original.
Of course these are all but guesses, but this is how I see the system ATM.
-Mynock + Show Spoiler +From how I understand the gameplay demo, I have to disagree. Know how zerg macro is done right now? The larvae pop out automatically, and its the job of the player to ensure a minimum of idle larvae. Here is how I see it. Toss builds a warpgate. I will use your 60 and 70 numbers. The building automatically begins building the unit as soon as it is built (no cost). When the unit is finished, the player must select somewhere on the grid to place the new unit. When the unit is placed, the construction is restarted and the player is charged. More warp gates just means more units can be placed at once: times will remain the same. Macro comes in the same way (or roughly similar) as zerg macro currently does - not through directly producing units, but by making sure there are no idle gateways. I would define an idle gateway as a gateway finished construction of a unit and waiting for that unit to be placed. More gateways will require more attention - Think of them as buckets continually being filled with water. It is up to the player to empty the buckets as efficiently as possible - As the number of gateways increase, the player must put more effort in to reduce idle times. Flow Chart: If the units start building if you tell them to but for no cost instead of having a cooldown and then selecting units, then why is it in the video the player can select to spawn in either zeals or stalkers and both have the same number at their icon, both going down after each stalker is summoned until both reach zero where both automaticly start recharging. Your version just doesnt fit with what the movie is showing. I've rewatched the video and I still think I am correct. Show nested quote + ~ 5:20 when he warps the Stalkers in from a Warp Gate There are 4 Warp Gates selected, and each mini icon on the right of the HUD shows there being 4 units available. That is, you can select to create 4 zealots, 4 stalkers, 4 immortals or any combination of the above INSTANTLY (if you have the resources). Once the available numbers reach 0 you can clearly see the cooldown/build timer on the icons!
would fit in with my view
the most logical way they would work would be this: lets say 60 seconds for zealot build time 1 gateway - 60 seconds later a 1 appears next to zealot icon 2 gateways - 60 seconds later a 2 appears next to zealot icon 16 gateways - 60 seconds later a 16 appears next to zealot icon
number next to zealot icon indicates how many you can warp in at once
the simplest explanation tends to be the correct one
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I think they disagree on whether having multiple gateways will speed up unit production by combining cooldown times. I don't think they "stack" to provide lower cooldown times.
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starcraft2.com says: "Once a gateway has been established, it can be reconfigured to an even more remarkable device: a warp gate. Functionally a warp gate is similar to a gateway in that both devices open a spatial rift. However, protoss forces moving through a gateway must emerge in close proximity to the structure, whereas those summoned via a warp gate can be projected to any part of the battlefield that lies within the psionic matrix.
When used in combination with the mobile phase prisms, warp gates allow the protoss unprecedented flexibility in their force deployment. Warp gates can transport protoss warriors directly to the front lines, instantly send defenders to a beleaguered outpost, or rapidly build up attack groups in unexpected sectors."
i suppose that means, those 4 stalkers were build in 4 gateways (not upgraded) which can be seen in main protoss base, stalkers were placed next to them, in main base
those 16 zealots were build in 16 upgraded gateways (warp gates), which were placed somewhere else on the map; they didnt show them to us in video, just selected them in group with number zealots were placed in energy matrix created by phase prisms, because they were created in warp gates
i also suppose that units arent build automaticly, u still have to select unit type in gateway as many times as much units u wanna, but after they are fininshed, they wait in somekind queue (gateway supercomputer memory ) for u to deploy them, according to building type, in radius of building (gateway), or somewhere in range of psionic matrix (warp gates)
its possible that there will be some kind of rally point, u can set for building (group of buildings) to deploy units automaticly on that place, but creating those units will be still done by clicking
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On May 22 2007 15:56 Zironic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2007 15:54 fusionsdf wrote:On May 22 2007 15:22 DrainX wrote:On May 22 2007 14:44 fusionsdf wrote:On May 22 2007 12:25 Mynock wrote: OK, I've analyzed the videos myself and I'd like to add a little correction as to how I see things.
It seems to me that the Warp Gates are indeed producing units automatically, just like as if it was a skill with a cooldown, and you can also warp the completed units anywhere in your pylon range (whether or not it has to be connected I dunno - in the demo, the prisms were in the range of the pylons atop of the platform, so that doesn't support either theory, nor disproves neither of them). However, I think the system goes a bit further than that, and this is my assumption:
The number of the Warp Gates a player has determines the amount of units "stacked" in queue and ready to be deployed, as well as the build time. Let's say you have 1 Warp Gate. The building time for a zealot would be 60 secs, for a stalk or an imma it would be 70 secs. Now, as soon as you build your Warp Gate (or upgrd from a Gateway rather) the counter goes down, and as 60 secs go by, you have a (1) next to your zealot picture, signifying you can now deploy a zealot. After 70 secs have passed, you get a (1) next to both the imma and the stalk so you can now deploy 1 of those (or choose to deploy the zealot having wasted 10 seconds of valuable building time).
Now, if you have 2 gateways, I imagine the build time (the spell cooldown time if you wish) would be halved. Building a zealot now would take only 30 secs, and if 30 secs have passed you get a (1) near your zealot picture, if 60 secs have passed you get a (2).
What I base this upon, is that in essence, it would still enable the player to produce the same amount of units in the same period of time, except being able to choose when to deploy them, which would be necessary with this system, since you can't queue any units anymore, just like the Zerg can't either. Another thing is, if you watch the cooldown rate for the zealots with 16 gateways, it seemed to be freaking fast, so my assumption would be that that is because the building time was essentially 1/16th of the original.
Of course these are all but guesses, but this is how I see the system ATM.
-Mynock + Show Spoiler +From how I understand the gameplay demo, I have to disagree. Know how zerg macro is done right now? The larvae pop out automatically, and its the job of the player to ensure a minimum of idle larvae. Here is how I see it. Toss builds a warpgate. I will use your 60 and 70 numbers. The building automatically begins building the unit as soon as it is built (no cost). When the unit is finished, the player must select somewhere on the grid to place the new unit. When the unit is placed, the construction is restarted and the player is charged. More warp gates just means more units can be placed at once: times will remain the same. Macro comes in the same way (or roughly similar) as zerg macro currently does - not through directly producing units, but by making sure there are no idle gateways. I would define an idle gateway as a gateway finished construction of a unit and waiting for that unit to be placed. More gateways will require more attention - Think of them as buckets continually being filled with water. It is up to the player to empty the buckets as efficiently as possible - As the number of gateways increase, the player must put more effort in to reduce idle times. Flow Chart: If the units start building if you tell them to but for no cost instead of having a cooldown and then selecting units, then why is it in the video the player can select to spawn in either zeals or stalkers and both have the same number at their icon, both going down after each stalker is summoned until both reach zero where both automaticly start recharging. Your version just doesnt fit with what the movie is showing. I've rewatched the video and I still think I am correct. ~ 5:20 when he warps the Stalkers in from a Warp Gate There are 4 Warp Gates selected, and each mini icon on the right of the HUD shows there being 4 units available. That is, you can select to create 4 zealots, 4 stalkers, 4 immortals or any combination of the above INSTANTLY (if you have the resources). Once the available numbers reach 0 you can clearly see the cooldown/build timer on the icons!
would fit in with my view You two are not contradicting eachother... Fusionsdf am I correct when I say that you think you have to decide which unit to build before waiting for the cooldown to go down? (sounds like it from what I read) Im just saying thats not whats happening in the video. There they are able to chose any unit and when one is built then the number of summonable units of all types are reduced by one. If you are not disagreeing with that then I just misunderstood what you were saying.
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This image is taken directly after the last stalker is finished warping in (8 seconds after the first one)
You can clearly see that the cooldown is already almost a quarter of the way through. This backs up the theory that each gate is on an individual timer, and that the timer when multiple gates are selected is the one nearest to completion.
Here's the same image after the zealots are warped in (10 secs after the first). You can see its a little bit further along.
And here's the picture just before he selects the Zealots (which is ~14 secs after he warped in the 1st zealot)
Looks like zeals take about 30 secs?
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MURICA15980 Posts
Yeah, the number probably won't jump to 16 when the timer is completed... it'll probably go 1...2...3..4...5...6, etc because that is how fast he deployed them.
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On May 22 2007 16:39 nagash wrote:This image is taken directly after the last stalker is finished warping in (8 seconds after the first one) You can clearly see that the cooldown is already almost a quarter of the way through. This backs up the theory that each gate is on an individual timer, and that the timer when multiple gates are selected is the one nearest to completion. Here's the same image after the zealots are warped in (10 secs after the first). You can see its a little bit further along. And here's the picture just before he selects the Zealots (which is ~14 secs after he warped in the 1st zealot) Looks like zeals take about 30 secs?
I agree. This sounds most reasonable. If you select 2 gates one with zealot recharged but not stalker and the other gate with both recharged I wonder what happend if you warp in a zeal. Do you think it automaticly will use the gate that cant make a stalker or just take a random gate able to summon it?
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4492 Posts
I still think I'm correct tho, and I will add some reasoning as to why.
First of all the way I described it wouldn't really be imbalanced, because from the looks of it, not only would it require lots of upgraded Gateways (Warp Gates), but it's only those 3 units that can be produced from there. So no, you couldn't drop and DTs into your opponent's base, or any HTs on your opponent's cliff, because those units would have to be produced differently (hence the whole need for a regular shuttle unit anyway). Besides, if while warping those units could still take damage (during the warp-in animation sequence), it doesn't really matter that you can warp in a new Zealot every 5 seconds if you have 10 Warp Gates, because they would have to either be warped a little bit behind your primary offensive lines, or obliterated by enemy fire before the warp-in sequence even finishes. So I don't exactly see a balance issue here. Besides, even the official site states that this kind of teleportation will become the "norm" for P, so that's that.
But another point I'd like to add as to why I think it works the way I described it. In the demo you can see that right after the 4 stalks are deployed, the cooldown on the units' pictures doesn't start from zero, but from somewhere around 20% already. Same happens after the zeals have been warped in. I deduce from this that as soon as you have a free "slot" from the maximum of what you have allotted (say, 16 in case you have 16 WGs), the WGs start building up the cooldown immediately. And here's the main point: it wouldn't make sense (not to me at least) to just show one of the WG's cooldown when having 16 of them selected, now would it? Hence why I think the cooldown - especially since it's a very quick cooldown from the looks of it - is only one, one for all the Warp Gates. Meaning the number of WGs will have to affect the all-round time for a unit to warp in (original C&C style). And if you miss the right time for when your unit arrives, it will just store it up, and it will store up as many units as many Warp Gates you have, hence the 16 available units with 16 selected WGs. And it will be up to you (and the availability of your resources) to choose when to deploy a unit and when to wait it out.
As I see it, the whole idea behind having this "cooldown" for building units with payment after, instead of the usual build time and pre-payment for units, is that it wouldn't make much sense to start warping in your units into the enemy base through a prism, and then having it destroyed while your units are nowhere near finished yet.
-Mynock
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4492 Posts
On May 22 2007 16:49 DrainX wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2007 16:39 nagash wrote:This image is taken directly after the last stalker is finished warping in (8 seconds after the first one) You can clearly see that the cooldown is already almost a quarter of the way through. This backs up the theory that each gate is on an individual timer, and that the timer when multiple gates are selected is the one nearest to completion. Here's the same image after the zealots are warped in (10 secs after the first). You can see its a little bit further along. And here's the picture just before he selects the Zealots (which is ~14 secs after he warped in the 1st zealot) Looks like zeals take about 30 secs? I agree. This sounds most reasonable. If you select 2 gates one with zealot recharged but not stalker and the other gate with both recharged I wonder what happend if you warp in a zeal. Do you think it automaticly will use the gate that cant make a stalker or just take a random gate able to summon it?
See, this is exactly why I think it can't work that way, also see my explanation on why the cooldown is already quite progressed even right after warping the units in (one cooldown for all the WGs, affected by their number).
-Mynock
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Mynock - the ideas are essentially the same (individual cooldown, 1 unit per gateway vs global cooldown, 1 unit per gateway). They are basically exactly the same. It would make no difference in gameplay except if they are on individual cooldown you will have to use the right gateway to launch the unit, as opposed to any gateway on global cooldown.
More Gates aren't going to make production faster imo.. it's just going to get you more units in the same amount of time.
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On May 22 2007 16:53 Mynock wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2007 16:49 DrainX wrote:On May 22 2007 16:39 nagash wrote:This image is taken directly after the last stalker is finished warping in (8 seconds after the first one) You can clearly see that the cooldown is already almost a quarter of the way through. This backs up the theory that each gate is on an individual timer, and that the timer when multiple gates are selected is the one nearest to completion. Here's the same image after the zealots are warped in (10 secs after the first). You can see its a little bit further along. And here's the picture just before he selects the Zealots (which is ~14 secs after he warped in the 1st zealot) Looks like zeals take about 30 secs? I agree. This sounds most reasonable. If you select 2 gates one with zealot recharged but not stalker and the other gate with both recharged I wonder what happend if you warp in a zeal. Do you think it automaticly will use the gate that cant make a stalker or just take a random gate able to summon it? See, this is exactly why I think it can't work that way, also see my explanation on why the cooldown is already quite progressed even right after warping the units in (one cooldown for all the WGs, affected by their number). -Mynock I want to believe you, your way would work much better imo. But couldnt it just be that they show the cooldown of the gate that is closest to completion? When that one is finished it switches to the next one? That way the cooldown starting at 20% would be because there was some time before the first and last stalker was summoned. Actualy now that I think of it im split again but if he did have 16 gates shouldnt the cooldown be something like 3-4 sec? :S Either way would be cool anyway. But if they recharged seperatly that would require insane macro to use all the gates to the highest efficiency. If they recharged like you say you would be able to take 30 seconds of micro before you return to building units which I think is a good thing.
On May 22 2007 17:03 nagash wrote: Mynock - the ideas are essentially the same (individual cooldown, 1 unit per gateway vs global cooldown, 1 unit per gateway). They are basically exactly the same. It would make no difference in gameplay except if they are on individual cooldown you will have to use the right gateway to launch the unit, as opposed to any gateway on global cooldown.
More Gates aren't going to make production faster imo.. it's just going to get you more units in the same amount of time.
Its not the same no. If they recharge separatly then when one zealot is ready that gate will stand still. If they work togather then the speed at which new units recharge is the same when you have all gateways recharging as when you have 1/16 recharging but will completly stop when all 16 have recharged.
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4492 Posts
Well, normally it should be faster, definitely, but then again the demo was on a slow speed from what we know, so I figure on fastest speed this could differ.
nagash: Yes, they are almost the same, but still not the same. The problem I'd have here, is that if only the WG closest to completion was shown, then which gate would be shown if a zeal has already finished warping in, but an other unit hasn't? Unless of course those 3 units all have the same build time, which I don't think is far-fetched or impossible.
Remember, we're just guessing here, cause Blizz is being a dick and keeping us on the edge of our seats
-Mynock
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Yeh Mynock, it's hard to tell from the portraits if one is faster then the other.
Sidetracking a bit, I imagine Zerg/Terran working the same for multiple selection.
I don't know what kind of mechanics they will have, but I imagine each click/hotkey will produce only one of that unit. So if zerg have 10 larvae selected, they will have to hit zergling 10 times to make 10 zerglings (as opposed to once).
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Here's the pictures just after he selects the Stalkers and Zealots respectively. Looks like you can still see the cooldown on the 3 icons... bug?
Anyways, you can see the cooldowns a little more clearly with these ones.
It does look like they have the same cooldown time for each unit.
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On May 22 2007 17:11 Mynock wrote:Well, normally it should be faster, definitely, but then again the demo was on a slow speed from what we know, so I figure on fastest speed this could differ. nagash: Yes, they are almost the same, but still not the same. The problem I'd have here, is that if only the WG closest to completion was shown, then which gate would be shown if a zeal has already finished warping in, but an other unit hasn't? Unless of course those 3 units all have the same build time, which I don't think is far-fetched or impossible. Remember, we're just guessing here, cause Blizz is being a dick and keeping us on the edge of our seats -Mynock
your theory is wrong :
If more gates = faster global cooldown , why didnt the guy select just 1 gate in the video and produce from it? or do you think it depends on the number of gates you select? dont think so.
+ I dont think they would copy a RA2 style of production.
I just like the individual cooldown theory more.
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4492 Posts
Dairush, yeah, I think the number of WGs selected specifies how many units you can deploy, don't see a problem with that tho.
And nagash, I noticed that too, I don't think that's a bug tho, it's simply a cooldown for the freshly deployed units to become fully warped in. So those cooldowns show you when you're able to use your unit after you've deployed it, that's why I mentioned that the newly deployed units could be obliterated by enemy fire if carelessly placed (couple posts earlier).
I'm not trying to defend my theory at any cost tho, I'm saying again, it's just a guess (more like, that's how I'd do it if it was up to me, and that's the idea I get from the video). I can be completely wrong tho, not to mention things could take a 180° turn 'till the completion of the game.
-Mynock
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this is getting soooooooooo deep.. good job guys, although keep in mind blizzard has stressed that they are going to stay true to sc1... some of the things you guys are saying seem too unlikely for blizzard to just pull out..
ive thought about it alot and i have no idea how the concept will work.. and every week that goes by without any updates from blizz is gonna be hard.
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On May 22 2007 17:24 Mynock wrote: Dairush, yeah, I think the number of WGs selected specifies how many units you can deploy, don't see a problem with that tho.
And nagash, I noticed that too, I don't think that's a bug tho, it's simply a cooldown for the freshly deployed units to become fully warped in. So those cooldowns show you when you're able to use your unit after you've deployed it, that's why I mentioned that the newly deployed units could be obliterated by enemy fire if carelessly placed (couple posts earlier).
I'm not trying to defend my theory at any cost tho, I'm saying again, it's just a guess (more like, that's how I'd do it if it was up to me, and that's the idea I get from the video). I can be completely wrong tho, not to mention things could take a 180° turn 'till the completion of the game.
-Mynock
I don't think so Mynock (regarding the cooldown/screenshot). The positions of the cooldowns are basically the same as just before the units are selected. And also, that stalker has been deployed for like 5 secs before he selects it (he only selects the first one he deployed - not all of them).
Plus the cooldowns just disappear instantly..
Edit: And also there is no cooldown showing on the last 2 icons (patrol and attack). So he can attack, but he can't move? I don't think so. The cooldowns are obviously carried over for a split second from the warp gates.
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Mynock, maybe i didnt get your guess too well so let me ask again
is what you saying , that if i have 3 gates and a zealot cooldown is 60 secs , i can make 1 every 20 secs IF i select all 3? That isnt convenient now is it? what if i select all 3, build 1 zealot , and then 10 secs later i select only 1 gate? what happens? (omg so many ifs)
maybe i just didnt get what you said.
I rather have separate gate cooldowns
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Hmm if the cooldowns are in fact separate for each gate then we will all have to build a lot more gateways then we would optimaly need ^^ No one will be able to macro well enough to always summon a unit exactly when the cooldown is finnished. If you time all your gates to finnish at the same time it makes it easier and then you dont have to spam out zealots every other second to use the gates somewhat optimal but still :S Even with multiple buildingselection it will be hard which is good though =P
*edit* omg talking so much about zealots just turned me into one =D
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Global cooldowns that vary with the number of Gates selected would cause helluva lot of problems, like Dariush said. I think that the simpler idea, individual Gate cooldowns, is the most likely. All speculation though, given Blizzard's tight-lipped policy.
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On May 22 2007 16:04 Raist wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2007 15:54 fusionsdf wrote:On May 22 2007 15:22 DrainX wrote:On May 22 2007 14:44 fusionsdf wrote:On May 22 2007 12:25 Mynock wrote: OK, I've analyzed the videos myself and I'd like to add a little correction as to how I see things.
It seems to me that the Warp Gates are indeed producing units automatically, just like as if it was a skill with a cooldown, and you can also warp the completed units anywhere in your pylon range (whether or not it has to be connected I dunno - in the demo, the prisms were in the range of the pylons atop of the platform, so that doesn't support either theory, nor disproves neither of them). However, I think the system goes a bit further than that, and this is my assumption:
The number of the Warp Gates a player has determines the amount of units "stacked" in queue and ready to be deployed, as well as the build time. Let's say you have 1 Warp Gate. The building time for a zealot would be 60 secs, for a stalk or an imma it would be 70 secs. Now, as soon as you build your Warp Gate (or upgrd from a Gateway rather) the counter goes down, and as 60 secs go by, you have a (1) next to your zealot picture, signifying you can now deploy a zealot. After 70 secs have passed, you get a (1) next to both the imma and the stalk so you can now deploy 1 of those (or choose to deploy the zealot having wasted 10 seconds of valuable building time).
Now, if you have 2 gateways, I imagine the build time (the spell cooldown time if you wish) would be halved. Building a zealot now would take only 30 secs, and if 30 secs have passed you get a (1) near your zealot picture, if 60 secs have passed you get a (2).
What I base this upon, is that in essence, it would still enable the player to produce the same amount of units in the same period of time, except being able to choose when to deploy them, which would be necessary with this system, since you can't queue any units anymore, just like the Zerg can't either. Another thing is, if you watch the cooldown rate for the zealots with 16 gateways, it seemed to be freaking fast, so my assumption would be that that is because the building time was essentially 1/16th of the original.
Of course these are all but guesses, but this is how I see the system ATM.
-Mynock + Show Spoiler +From how I understand the gameplay demo, I have to disagree. Know how zerg macro is done right now? The larvae pop out automatically, and its the job of the player to ensure a minimum of idle larvae. Here is how I see it. Toss builds a warpgate. I will use your 60 and 70 numbers. The building automatically begins building the unit as soon as it is built (no cost). When the unit is finished, the player must select somewhere on the grid to place the new unit. When the unit is placed, the construction is restarted and the player is charged. More warp gates just means more units can be placed at once: times will remain the same. Macro comes in the same way (or roughly similar) as zerg macro currently does - not through directly producing units, but by making sure there are no idle gateways. I would define an idle gateway as a gateway finished construction of a unit and waiting for that unit to be placed. More gateways will require more attention - Think of them as buckets continually being filled with water. It is up to the player to empty the buckets as efficiently as possible - As the number of gateways increase, the player must put more effort in to reduce idle times. Flow Chart: If the units start building if you tell them to but for no cost instead of having a cooldown and then selecting units, then why is it in the video the player can select to spawn in either zeals or stalkers and both have the same number at their icon, both going down after each stalker is summoned until both reach zero where both automaticly start recharging. Your version just doesnt fit with what the movie is showing. I've rewatched the video and I still think I am correct. ~ 5:20 when he warps the Stalkers in from a Warp Gate There are 4 Warp Gates selected, and each mini icon on the right of the HUD shows there being 4 units available. That is, you can select to create 4 zealots, 4 stalkers, 4 immortals or any combination of the above INSTANTLY (if you have the resources). Once the available numbers reach 0 you can clearly see the cooldown/build timer on the icons!
would fit in with my view the most logical way they would work would be this: lets say 60 seconds for zealot build time 1 gateway - 60 seconds later a 1 appears next to zealot icon 2 gateways - 60 seconds later a 2 appears next to zealot icon 16 gateways - 60 seconds later a 16 appears next to zealot icon number next to zealot icon indicates how many you can warp in at once the simplest explanation tends to be the correct one
exactly. I am just trying to empasize that I think the game does the production for you, and then waits for you to place on the map so it can start a new cycle.
But with what I am thinking of, it would work exactly like that.
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4492 Posts
nagash. watched th video again and yeah, you're right - those cooldowns only stayed there for a fraction of a second, and were the same as those in the WGs. So I guess it's just the way it was graphically done, they might change it later, dunno.
Dariush: Yes, that's what I'm saying. If you had 3 gates tho, you could make a zealot every 20 seconds, yes, except that if you select any of those gates, you could deploy only 1. If you select 2 you could deploy 2, etc... Let's say you have 6 WGs, and 30 secs have passed - you can select 4 of your WGs, and they will show you 3 units available, and a cooldown counter going down still. If you select more WGs than you have units ready, it will just add another unit count to the available ones each time a cooldown finishes, and start another one, up to the point it reaches it's saturation limit (prolly the number of WGs you have).
That's partially why I think the cooldown is prolly global, since it would be a bitch to have to pay attention to 10+ WGs, and have to manually check for every gate's availability at exactly the right time in order not to waste any production time (since there's no queue). Imagine having to warp in units from 20 WGs - you can't just put them on queue like you did with usual gates - you can't just take time away from battle when and how long you wish to go back and make units, you will have to select all the WGs and start deploying the units just as the become available, else you're getting punished. So if that happenes during a lenghty battle you'll basically have to choose which punishment to take - micro or macro .As it is now, you can be microing and don't worry about unit production for a while, since you have a couple of them queued already.
-Mynock
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4492 Posts
On May 22 2007 17:39 Jyvblamo wrote: Global cooldowns that vary with the number of Gates selected would cause helluva lot of problems, like Dariush said. I think that the simpler idea, individual Gate cooldowns, is the most likely. All speculation though, given Blizzard's tight-lipped policy.
No, it cannot depend on the WGs selected, but nobody said that anyway
fusionsdf: yes, that would also be a possibility, but in that case, I'd have to suppose (judging from the video) that zeals are building pretty fucking fast in SC2
-Mynock
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On May 22 2007 17:50 Mynock wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2007 17:39 Jyvblamo wrote: Global cooldowns that vary with the number of Gates selected would cause helluva lot of problems, like Dariush said. I think that the simpler idea, individual Gate cooldowns, is the most likely. All speculation though, given Blizzard's tight-lipped policy. No, it cannot depend on the WGs selected, but nobody said that anyway fusionsdf: yes, that would also be a possibility, but in that case, I'd have to suppose (judging from the video) that zeals are building pretty fucking fast in SC2 -Mynock
It looks to be about 30 (Edit: 40 secs actually) seconds, judging from time elapsed deploying first zeal till he selects them all against the cooldown indicator.
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4492 Posts
On May 22 2007 17:54 nagash wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2007 17:50 Mynock wrote:On May 22 2007 17:39 Jyvblamo wrote: Global cooldowns that vary with the number of Gates selected would cause helluva lot of problems, like Dariush said. I think that the simpler idea, individual Gate cooldowns, is the most likely. All speculation though, given Blizzard's tight-lipped policy. No, it cannot depend on the WGs selected, but nobody said that anyway fusionsdf: yes, that would also be a possibility, but in that case, I'd have to suppose (judging from the video) that zeals are building pretty fucking fast in SC2 -Mynock It looks to be about 30 seconds, judging from time elapsed deploying first zeal till he selects them all against the cooldown indicator.
Looks a bit too fast for me if that game was indeed on slow settings, but who knows - it's nothing way too extraordinary... Could work that way :/
Edit: But humm, think about it... If you have 30 WGs, whenever you want to build from all of them, you will have to select them, and empty all of them at the precise time over and over again, else you'll be losing valuable time... But I guess you could counter that by making extra WGs to compensate for that inability. I dunno, sounds a bit meeeh tho. I'm really curious as to what the actual concept is
-Mynock
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I wonder if you have to select where zealots made in normal gateways spawn or if they just spawn outside the gate when you hit the zealot hotkey. If they do then it would get easier. Then just group all your gates to 0 and just press 0 and spam z if the icon isnt on cooldown. That could easily be done in combat. Warpgates would be harder to use fast since you have to go back to a pylon you controll to make the units spawn.
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On May 22 2007 17:48 Mynock wrote: Dariush: Yes, that's what I'm saying. If you had 3 gates tho, you could make a zealot every 20 seconds, yes, except that if you select any of those gates, you could deploy only 1. If you select 2 you could deploy 2, etc... Let's say you have 6 WGs, and 30 secs have passed - you can select 4 of your WGs, and they will show you 3 units available, and a cooldown counter going down still. If you select more WGs than you have units ready, it will just add another unit count to the available ones each time a cooldown finishes, and start another one, up to the point it reaches it's saturation limit (prolly the number of WGs you have). -Mynock
What you described there , imo , can be a separate cooldown system that when you select all gates it shows how many of them are ready to make a unit , and add them to the counter, but if you select only 1 , it shows if its ready to make a unit , or is it still in cooldown.
Thats why the cooldown , on multiple buildings is shown only after the counter reaches 0. at least thats what i saw in the video
I still guess its a 3 zealots every 60 secs rather than 1 every 20.
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On May 22 2007 17:50 Mynock wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2007 17:39 Jyvblamo wrote: Global cooldowns that vary with the number of Gates selected would cause helluva lot of problems, like Dariush said. I think that the simpler idea, individual Gate cooldowns, is the most likely. All speculation though, given Blizzard's tight-lipped policy. No, it cannot depend on the WGs selected, but nobody said that anyway fusionsdf: yes, that would also be a possibility, but in that case, I'd have to suppose (judging from the video) that zeals are building pretty fucking fast in SC2 -Mynock
Okay sorry, I went back and reread of the posts and I guess I misunderstood some of what was said. However, I still believe that the cooldown will be different for each gate. This may be extremely demanding macro-wise, but isn't Starcraft already like that? It rewards players who can multitask. There are already many things in Starcraft which 'punish' players for not using them regularly, such as scanners which can only store up to 4 scans, HT which can only store up to 3 storms, etc. Perhaps there will be an upgrade to allow W.G.s to queue up additonal 'warps', just like there are upgrades which allow for spellcasters to store more energy. Just a thought.
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Also I thought I'd mention that I don't think Warp Gates are going to be used like in the demo. I doubt you would have 16 warp gates and warp in 16 zeals or whatever at the enemy's mineral line.
More likely is a mid-game scenario where you have 3-4 warp gates and you use them in a drop on the mineral lines. Send Phase Prism in, drop 4 zeals, blink 4 stalkers up the cliff, convert Prism to Pylon mode, warp in 3-4 more zeals from your gates.
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I agree. Keep in mind that this is going to require teching to even pull that off. You will have to tech up to phase prism, and then upgrate all 4 gateways to warpgates.
So it will likely be a rather large investment.
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MURICA15980 Posts
Oh, I guess this will make map balancing interesting as semi-islands for protoss will be able to deploy onto main land. Still not as mobile as zerg nydus, but still.
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On May 22 2007 17:57 Mynock wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2007 17:54 nagash wrote:On May 22 2007 17:50 Mynock wrote:On May 22 2007 17:39 Jyvblamo wrote: Global cooldowns that vary with the number of Gates selected would cause helluva lot of problems, like Dariush said. I think that the simpler idea, individual Gate cooldowns, is the most likely. All speculation though, given Blizzard's tight-lipped policy. No, it cannot depend on the WGs selected, but nobody said that anyway fusionsdf: yes, that would also be a possibility, but in that case, I'd have to suppose (judging from the video) that zeals are building pretty fucking fast in SC2 -Mynock It looks to be about 30 seconds, judging from time elapsed deploying first zeal till he selects them all against the cooldown indicator. Looks a bit too fast for me if that game was indeed on slow settings, but who knows - it's nothing way too extraordinary... Could work that way :/ Edit: But humm, think about it... If you have 30 WGs, whenever you want to build from all of them, you will have to select them, and empty all of them at the precise time over and over again, else you'll be losing valuable time... But I guess you could counter that by making extra WGs to compensate for that inability. I dunno, sounds a bit meeeh tho. I'm really curious as to what the actual concept is
-Mynock
I think this is a very novel way to preserve the importance of macro.
Note though that you dont actually have to select each individual one. You can just do a mous sweep and then start clicking on the map.
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I also noticed this and just had to register to give my thought on the subject.
Let's assume that all protoss buildings follow the same cooldown warp in system that we see with the warp gates, this would essentially make macroing just different in Sc2 compared to Sc. Being able to select multiple buildings doesn't have to make production overly simple like some people have feared.
Maybe even a similar system is being used for terran? Think about it. It could easily be transfered and adjusted accordingly. Let's say you have 4 barracks selected. The different units that you can produce will show up as icons with the number 0 in the corner. Then let's say you click twice on the Marine and twice on the Reaper. The icons will now both show the number 2 in the corner showing that two of both units are being trained, and have a visible clock timer indicating when the first unit will be available.
I know this is highly theorycrafting, but with such a queueless system you can always keep track of how many units you are making of the different types with ease, but will also have to keep at it to continue to produce the units you want.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Ahhh, this is probably one of the ways at which they were going to make each race more distinct.. i always thought protoss and terran were too similar
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Can the Nydus Worms "crawl" up wherever they want? Can they also go back into the ground or do they have to be killed?
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Nice analysis. Hopefully its a correct analysis making the protoss a bit more unique than I originally thought.
I wonder if Terran economy/production was also modified/revamped to be more unique in comparison to their sc counterparts and to the other 2 races.
On May 22 2007 21:35 Tiku wrote: Maybe even a similar system is being used for terran? Think about it. It could easily be transfered and adjusted accordingly. Let's say you have 4 barracks selected. .
I actually hope that each race is as unique/distinct from the others as possible (without balancing issues) and hope terrans get their own inginous production system, but I guess we have to wait and see.
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MURICA15980 Posts
I wouldn't mind terran building the same way as they do now.
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Problem as I see it right now is how normal gateways work and how terrans production works.
Lets say that normal gateways dont require you to click on the ground for the unit to spawn. So you can just click you "gateway" hotkey in the middle of combat and click it "Z" a few times to spawn a few more zealots in your base. I think that macro would be hard enough since there are no queues. To make use of your warpgates and spawn units where ever you want would be harder since you would have to click the ground where you want them to spawn and so cant do it in combat as easily. I hope this is how blizzard has designed the gateway/warpgate. It would make the basic gateway not as versatile but easier to use and the warpgate a bit harder to use but a lot more versatile.
Now lets look at terrans. Do you think they work in the same way as in starcraft with unit queues? But they also are able to select any number of buildings? Then the attention needed for terran production would be much lower than it is for protoss production. Maybe as a terran you need to tab through the gates to produce from them if you have many selected. I hope so atleast.
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This sounds a lot similar to Red Alert produciton (not sure about RA2 and later since I barely played those and can't remember).
Basically, say you have say 3 war factories. You can't produce 3 tanks at a time, but one war fact will produce tanks 3x faster.
It would be kinda neat to have terran / protoss build in different ways to further their uniqueness.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 23 2007 21:05 Amnesty wrote: This sounds a lot similar to Red Alert produciton (not sure about RA2 and later since I barely played those and can't remember).
Basically, say you have say 3 war factories. You can't produce 3 tanks at a time, but one war fact will produce tanks 3x faster.
It would be kinda neat to have terran / protoss build in different ways to further their uniqueness.
That's a system I don't want to see anywhere near starcraft and I don't think that's how it will work out, some of the variations mentioned later on in the thread seem much more likely to me.
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This is really cool, I didn't notice any of this thanks for sharing.
I really wonder the others races will produce units. They will probably also have there own unique way.
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United States40779 Posts
This seems quite similar to the current Zerg system to me. As time goes by the hatchery produces larvae until you choose to spend them in which case they morph into units. And you're suggesting that as time goes by the gateway will gain power until you choose to pay for a unit. What we already have for zerg and numbers (ie not building anything for a while = 3 larvae per hatch) is being suggested for protoss and tech (not producing a unit allows you to create one instantly, the longer you wait, the better the unit). Sounds pretty sexy but not that original. Even so, I'd like to see it.
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The difference is the unit being selected for production in this case will appear on the map almost instantly after it has been chosen, whereas with the larvae you have to wait a while for it to morph.
This method of production will probably not be applied to all toss units, as it would make more powerful units a lot easier to get than before, even without changing building time or cost. Let me make it more clear with an example.
Let's assume the Mothership takes 5 minutes to "build" or "warp in" and costs 2000-2000 (bare with me). In the BW style of unit production when a player decides to go for the Mothership, he is investing a huge amount of money and not seeing any of it be of use to him for a full 5 minutes. It is assumed because of the high cost that he has already setup a big economy. During these 5 minutes he is in a much more vulnerable position than before and must survive to the point that the investment manifests itself.
If you implement what we've seen so far in the video to the Mothership, the player will invest in the production building (presumably it is a lot cheaper than 2000-2000) several minutes before setting up a big economy (or hitting late game) and just wait for the countdown, with only the cost of the production building as a handicap. His only task is now to make sure he accumulates 2000-2000 when the countdown reaches 5 minutes (this can be done by idling all buildings for say.. 20 seconds - not particularly handicapping) and he has his brand new Mothership instantly.
To summarize, the new building method handicaps the player for the duration of the warp-in time only with the cost of the production building, whereas the classic style, by demanding the money first, creates a handicap of the same duration but with the added cost of the unit. This is why I speculate it will only be applied to relatively cheap units.
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To account for the warp-in animation of the Mothership we can imagine a way for the classic method to be disguised in the new one: the production building would cost a very considerable amount of resources (instead of the unit), the ship itself would be cheap and the production building is destroyed if the Mothership is destroyed (or production buildings can create only one ship for the duration of the game). This works well with not being able to have more than one ship at a time but is fundamentally the same method as the one we are used to in BW.
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On May 22 2007 18:00 DrainX wrote: I wonder if you have to select where zealots made in normal gateways spawn or if they just spawn outside the gate when you hit the zealot hotkey. If they do then it would get easier. Then just group all your gates to 0 and just press 0 and spam z if the icon isnt on cooldown. That could easily be done in combat. Warpgates would be harder to use fast since you have to go back to a pylon you controll to make the units spawn.
Yup, if it works like we think, old gateways sound a great deal better. I can see having warpgates for defense only... hmm what toss units are good for defense. High templar, dark temps, and reavers. High Templar need mana... so warpgates are no good there. Reavers (Colossi?) are robotic. OK, now I know why Blizzard said they used warpgates to warp in zealots between buildings to defend against zerglings. Well I guess it'd be good to warp immortals on top of siege tanks... although I doubt they'd be in pylon range. Warp gates + Island maps I guess.
Warpgates + siege prisms used for offense? That's going to be one hell of a slow drop. I guess that's the point... they don't want it too good. I sure hope arbiters are in the game (doubt it though).
Note that it took the demo user about 14 seconds to warp in 16 zealots. Not sure if it can be done much faster... and it would probably take an extra second or two if you were warping in more than one type of unit. Wow, that's a LOT of time to spend getting units at end game where you could attack 3 places at once in that timespan (in SC). And as for defense... wow, I'm pretty sure you can walk across a whole map in 15 seconds (I just checked... you can). I can't imagine spending time like that on summoning units. Yeah, there will probably be a small limit to how many warp gates you actually want.
OK, the one other place it looks good is for "leftover" money. If you are about to micro a battle, you queue up some men in regular gateways. When you come back from the fight, your men are popping out... but you have 400 minerals to spare. Ok, warp in 4 zealots really quick (well not that quick, but you know) and add them to the group you are moving out.
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Sure this new way of building units can be verry favorable for protoss in many ways. But look at protoss way of building buildings atm. A single probe can spawn in an entire base within a minute if you have the resources, this is much more effective than zergs or terrans way of building but its still a feature that has been balanced into the game. I dont think this will be any different.
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Why can't queues be possible with the new system?
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On May 27 2007 06:06 Lisk wrote: Why can't queues be possible with the new system? Because that wouldnt make sense. When you build a unit it spawns right away. The only way queues would work was if one gateway could load up more than one potential unit... but that still wouldnt be a queue.
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You have to think about the story aspect too. The following is my theory, mostly based on what I read here.
The gateways just "charge" until they have enough energy to open a spatial rift.
More energy is required to open a large spatial rift, so this is why a longer charge time is necessary for stalkers than for zealots.
It is unknown if energy resets back to zero after building a unit.
I do not think the energy pool is shared (as per Mynock's suggestion). I think each gateway will have to draw from it's own energy pool to create a spatial rift.
When having multiple gateways selected, the counter next to each unit shows how many gateways have enough energy to warp in that unit.
It is unknown what gateway is used when you build a unit like this. Perhaps a random one, perhaps closest one, perhaps the one first built, perhaps the one first selected in creating this selection, perhaps the one with least energy.. I think we just don't know.
Seems like a fun system, at least.
Also, keep in mind that they admitted to cheating in the demo, perhaps removing cool-down and/or unit costs.
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Stegosaur
Netherlands1231 Posts
Hey! First post here, just thought I'd register and add something. Quote taken from starcraft2.com (shoot me for now knowing how to quote decently )
However, protoss forces moving through a gateway must emerge in close proximity to the structure, whereas those summoned via a warp gate can be projected to any part of the battlefield that lies within the psionic matrix.
Personally, I think it's more plausible you build units the normal way, click > progress > finished, and they get stuck inside the warpgate queue untill you're ready to deploy them? Just a random thought :>
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On May 27 2007 10:03 Stegosaur wrote: Personally, I think it's more plausible you build units the normal way, click > progress > finished, and they get stuck inside the warpgate queue untill you're ready to deploy them? Just a random thought :> Then why is the 100 minerals per Zealot payed for every time one is warped in? And why can you see the timer on each of the units the Warp Gates can produce (Immortal, Stalker, Zealot) start after all units are warped in?
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wait, so that means if you don't keep on warping units in, you're wasting production time..?
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On May 30 2007 23:06 nijigasumi wrote: wait, so that means if you don't keep on warping units in, you're wasting production time..? Yes, it requires you to constantly produce units.
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The warp in animation looks way too fast and there is a minimap ping when the unit finishes warping, while resources are taken when warping is started, also units at the start of a warp in have low hp/shield and build it up as a building does in sc1, so it's pretty sure that the warp in is not gonna be so fast as in the demo.
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The animation lasts 5 seconds. Too fast for what? I don't understand how the gradually increasing hp/shield and when you pay for the unit leads you to think the animation is going to be slowed down. Maybe I'm missing something, please elaborate a bit.
I see your point of the ping being useless in this situation, but I find it more likely it's a remnant from the other "normal" production buildings, where it is very useful.
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Protoss should'nt be able to upgrade any buildings.. Leave that to Zerg and Terran.
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On May 23 2007 21:05 Amnesty wrote: This sounds a lot similar to Red Alert produciton (not sure about RA2 and later since I barely played those and can't remember).
Basically, say you have say 3 war factories. You can't produce 3 tanks at a time, but one war fact will produce tanks 3x faster.
It would be kinda neat to have terran / protoss build in different ways to further their uniqueness.
The Red Alert Production system is everything that is wrong with the game. That, and the Attack Move strategy.
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imo this production system is lame, i HATED it in red alert!
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
this makes it so it was more like you were supposed to play the game to begin with. not double queing....
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On May 31 2007 10:39 FatRine wrote: imo this production system is lame, i HATED it in red alert! What are you talking about? This is NOTHING like in red alert.
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Same happens after the zeals have been warped in. I deduce from this that as soon as you have a free "slot" from the maximum of what you have allotted (say, 16 in case you have 16 WGs), the WGs start building up the cooldown immediately. And here's the main point: it wouldn't make sense (not to me at least) to just show one of the WG's cooldown when having 16 of them selected, now would it?
It does make sense. Thats how it works for spellcasters in WC3. If you select 12 mortar teams and you cast flare. You click flare and then click on the map, The game selects one of the mortar teams (out of your 12) and uses that mortar team to cast flare. Now the flare icon doesn't go into CD because you have 11 other mortar teams that can still cast flare. When you use all 12 polymorphs, the skill that is closest to cooling down is the one that is displayed.
In this same style, when the player selects 16 gateways and clicks to deploy a zealot, it selects one of the gateways and deploys the unit, this continues until all 16 are deployed, and then you are shown the cooldown for the most cooldowned gateway.
Don't think of warpgates as "always producing a unit." Instead think that its a building that can instantly produce any unit, and that unit produced affects how long the cooldown on the warpgate is before it can produce another unit (this idea was already mentioned)
the 20%
I agree. This sounds most reasonable. If you select 2 gates one with zealot recharged but not stalker and the other gate with both recharged I wonder what happend if you warp in a zeal. Do you think it automaticly will use the gate that cant make a stalker or just take a random gate able to summon it?
it would choose the warpgate that cant build a stalker. The game will have internalized priority. Its not hard to program.
On May 31 2007 11:43 DrainX wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2007 10:39 FatRine wrote: imo this production system is lame, i HATED it in red alert! What are you talking about? This is NOTHING like in red alert.
hes talking about how building more factories reduces the production time of tanks, instead of having more factories lets you produce tanks individually from each factory
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Calgary25939 Posts
This isn't really new? This is how Zerg has been producing for 10 years Edit: oOo just got through the thread. I take it back!
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On June 12 2007 08:25 caution.slip wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2007 11:43 DrainX wrote:On May 31 2007 10:39 FatRine wrote: imo this production system is lame, i HATED it in red alert! What are you talking about? This is NOTHING like in red alert. hes talking about how building more factories reduces the production time of tanks, instead of having more factories lets you produce tanks individually from each factory
Well its not even sure it works that way and even if it does then thats one of the smallest implications of the new system. Saying something like that only shows you dont understand a thing about the new system.
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I have an idea for terran unit production:
You have to micro a rine and medic really hard for 2 minutes minimum, then keep the medic alive for at least 9 months in your base, then build a daycare center, school etc, and finally you'll be able to recruit one 18 years later in a barrack!
THANK GOD Molyneux doesn't produce this game!
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Looks like this is confirmed:
Warp In
Picture This: You're playing as the Protoss, and one of your resource bases on the other side of the map comes under attack. Your gateway, the Protoss barracks, at the besieged base is destroyed. For old-school Protoss players, the battle would already be over. But that's becuase they didn't have warp-in tech, a new upgrade for your barracks that will allow them to build a unit anywhere on the map within the range of a power pylon or phase prism. [There'll be a limit of one unit per gateway at a time and a cooldown period before you can use warp-in again.] It's a handy ability that will instantly set strategists' minds running wild with possibilities, but it will have its drawbacks -the unit will gradually materialize jus like a Protoss building and be completely defenseless unit finished. And, if your power pylon is destroyed midway through warp-in, your unfinished unit will be lost.
From this post on b.net forums
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Teleportation seems soo imba -.-
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On June 14 2007 20:23 NaDazpwnz3r wrote: Teleportation seems soo imba -.-
It's a handy ability that will instantly set strategists' minds running wild with possibilities, but it will have its drawbacks -the unit will gradually materialize jus like a Protoss building and be completely defenseless unit finished. And, if your power pylon is destroyed midway through warp-in, your unfinished unit will be lost.
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yea not imba, especially since its an upgrade, so I think it would be a fair tradeoff, since there are still chances of losing that unit, like killing a zerg egg. MASS SCOURGES AT THE PHASE PRISM! *POOF* there goes all those units... haha cant wait for zerg!
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And I was right about the warp in, too. Funny that so many people were thinking up bullshit reasons it won't be like this.
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