Anytime - Anytime's ProLeague record is still strong, and he made it through Survivor, but he's 3-4 in November, and his only wins are against third-rate chumps. Anytime doesn't have the spark he showed a month ago, so he drops off. He'll need to bring that spark back.
Iris - Iris failed his only task this month: pass group stage of OSL. He could have advanced from the tiebreakers, but played a horrible game against July which forced a rematch. Eventually Hwasin made it through, and Iris drops off Power Rank.
Free - free's games lately have been utter disappointments, barring one PvP against Bisu. One good game per month doesn't put you on the Power Rank, bucko.
Flash - Flash's deal is basically squeaking past group stages in OSL and then losing to the first good player he faces in the bracket rounds. This kid will have to do something to show me he has a legitimate shot at a final before he sees Power Rank time.
There are a multitude of players who are performing well lately (Yarnc for example), but simply aren't playing as well as the top ten. The four players I mentioned specifically are just the most relevant to the currently running tournaments. I'm not going to justify every player's absence because I don't have all goddamned day. So there!
Savior lost to Mind too, but he also pushed Bisu farther than Bisu has ever been pushed in a PvZ series. Watch the second and third games of the Savior/Bisu series and honestly tell me that any other Protoss in the world could have won those games.
Excuse me? I am sorry to dismiss your judgment but this is absolutely absurd. I've watched games 2 and 3 over and over, at least 10 times now, trying to convince myself that they were actually good, close games. They weren't. Much to my dismay, Bisu destroyed Savior - again.
In game 2, yes Bisu did lose his back expansion. But do you know how many overlords Savior lost that game? At Least Twenty-Three!!!. Savior exceeded 60 supply only momentarily in the game, and aside from the initial drop, was never able to gain control of the game flow. He was consistently choked for supply space due to losing overlords, and as a consequence had over 1000 gas yet no minerals.
Just look at his supply count to cap ratio ~24 minutes into the vod. Savior goes from 68 supply cap to 100, despite having only 50 units and getting hammered at his 3rd base?? What kind of zerg player, who is in any semblance of control of the game, has a gap of over 50 between his supply value and supply count?
Bisu was hitting Savior everywhere, constantly forcing Savior to move his units out of position for the next attack. Savior lost his 4th base to just a half-group of zealots, and his attempts at cracking Bisu's front door looked desperate and unwise.
I reiterate that after Savior's first drop, he NEVER had any chance of taking that game.
In game 3 Savior never so much as touched Bisu's economy while Bisu was frying his drones repeatedly. His 3 attempts to damage Bisu's expansions utterly failed, first at the mineral only, then at the nat, and finally at the island. Even when Savior looked decent after deflecting Bisu's army with swarm and cracklings, he was never able to get to within even FIFTY supply of Bisu all the way until he tapped out. Said army was destroyed by Bisu's next wave, and 3 minutes later we'd see Savior losing everything in an all-in drop at 5 o'clock.
While he managed to save his overlords midgame this time, he nevertheless lost nearly 30 drones (yes, I counted them) to templar drops. Savior was extremely strapped for gas all game and consistently had over 1500 minerals, even when he typed out.
I don't have anything against Savior being #2, but the suggestion that games 2 and 3 were even remotely closely contested is inconceivable to me.
Savior lost to Mind too, but he also pushed Bisu farther than Bisu has ever been pushed in a PvZ series. Watch the second and third games of the Savior/Bisu series and honestly tell me that any other Protoss in the world could have won those games.
Excuse me? I am sorry to dismiss your judgment but this is absolutely absurd. I've watched games 2 and 3 over and over, at least 10 times now, trying to convince myself that they were actually good, close games. They weren't. Much to my dismay, Bisu destroyed Savior - again.
In game 2, yes Bisu did lose his back expansion. But do you know how many overlords Savior lost that game? At Least Twenty-Three!!!. Savior exceeded 60 supply only momentarily in the game, and aside from the initial drop, was never able to gain control of the game flow. He was consistently choked for supply space due to losing overlords, and as a consequence had over 1000 gas yet no minerals.
Just look at his supply count to cap ratio ~24 minutes into the vod. Savior goes from 68 supply cap to 100, despite having only 50 units and getting hammered at his 3rd base?? What kind of zerg player, who is in any semblance of control of the game, has a gap of over 50 between his supply value and supply count?
Bisu was hitting Savior everywhere, constantly forcing Savior to move his units out of position for the next attack. Savior lost his 4th base to just a half-group of zealots, and his attempts at cracking Bisu's front door looked desperate and unwise.
I reiterate that after Savior's first drop, he NEVER had any chance of taking that game.
In game 3 Savior never so much as touched Bisu's economy while Bisu was frying his drones repeatedly. His 3 attempts to damage Bisu's expansions utterly failed, first at the mineral only, then at the nat, and finally at the island. Even when Savior looked decent after deflecting Bisu's army with swarm and cracklings, he was never able to get to within even FIFTY supply of Bisu all the way until he tapped out. Said army was destroyed by Bisu's next wave, and 3 minutes later we'd see Savior losing everything in an all-in drop at 5 o'clock.
While he managed to save his overlords midgame this time, he nevertheless lost nearly 30 drones (yes, I counted them) to templar drops. Savior was extremely strapped for gas all game and consistently had over 1500 minerals, even when he typed out.
I don't have anything against Savior being #2, but the suggestion that games 2 and 3 were even remotely closely contested is inconceivable to me.
Okay, I'll explain this very clearly. If this was in person I'd talk reaaaal sloooow liiiike thiiiiiiiis~
I didn't say Savior was close to winning those games. I said any Protoss besides Bisu would not have won those games. This is indisputable.
In game 2, Bisu had lost his nat nexus and was on the brink of death before his corsair heroics and perfectly timed Zealot attacks pulled him even. This is the closest Bisu has EVER been pushes to elimination in a PvZ series. This is indisputable.
In that second game, any protoss besides Bisu would not execute the overlord, zealot, and reaver harass in a manner that allows them to win a game in which they have one base to four. Bisu, however, does happen to be Bisu.
In the third game, Savior defended Bisu's early harass flawlessly, and as a result his economy was in full juggernaut mode. However, Bisu's inhuman multitasking allowed him ridiculous macro while simultaneously harassing with corsairs, storm drops, and reavers. No other protoss on earth is capable of multitasking to that level. No other protoss on earth would be able to stop Savior once his economy hit the peak it hit in that game. Not a single one.
I didn't suggest that Savior played better than Bisu and I certainly didn't suggest that Savior had it in the bag but totally fucked up. Bisu completely outplayed Savior in those two games, but no other Protoss would have pulled off those wins. Not a fucking chance.
I thought game two seemed close, at least for a while. Savior definitely made it interesting. But I would have to agree with haji that when I was watching the third game, and only about five minutes or so into it I was thinking that there was no way Savior was going to pull out the win.
Again, I didn't say Savior was going to win that game. I said that no other protoss could hope to be as far ahead as Bisu was during that game, because no one else has that level of multitasking ability.
The third game is inconsequential to the statement 'savior pushed bisu farther than he's ever been pushed before in a pvz series'
Just a clarification, it wasn't 1 base to 4, Savior had literally no drones mining at 2.5 of his bases, so let's not get carried away with how ahead Savior was that game.
Savior lost to Mind too, but he also pushed Bisu farther than Bisu has ever been pushed in a PvZ series. Watch the second and third games of the Savior/Bisu series and honestly tell me that any other Protoss in the world could have won those games.
Excuse me? I am sorry to dismiss your judgment but this is absolutely absurd. I've watched games 2 and 3 over and over, at least 10 times now, trying to convince myself that they were actually good, close games. They weren't. Much to my dismay, Bisu destroyed Savior - again.
In game 2, yes Bisu did lose his back expansion. But do you know how many overlords Savior lost that game? At Least Twenty-Three!!!. Savior exceeded 60 supply only momentarily in the game, and aside from the initial drop, was never able to gain control of the game flow. He was consistently choked for supply space due to losing overlords, and as a consequence had over 1000 gas yet no minerals.
Just look at his supply count to cap ratio ~24 minutes into the vod. Savior goes from 68 supply cap to 100, despite having only 50 units and getting hammered at his 3rd base?? What kind of zerg player, who is in any semblance of control of the game, has a gap of over 50 between his supply value and supply count?
Bisu was hitting Savior everywhere, constantly forcing Savior to move his units out of position for the next attack. Savior lost his 4th base to just a half-group of zealots, and his attempts at cracking Bisu's front door looked desperate and unwise.
I reiterate that after Savior's first drop, he NEVER had any chance of taking that game.
In game 3 Savior never so much as touched Bisu's economy while Bisu was frying his drones repeatedly. His 3 attempts to damage Bisu's expansions utterly failed, first at the mineral only, then at the nat, and finally at the island. Even when Savior looked decent after deflecting Bisu's army with swarm and cracklings, he was never able to get to within even FIFTY supply of Bisu all the way until he tapped out. Said army was destroyed by Bisu's next wave, and 3 minutes later we'd see Savior losing everything in an all-in drop at 5 o'clock.
While he managed to save his overlords midgame this time, he nevertheless lost nearly 30 drones (yes, I counted them) to templar drops. Savior was extremely strapped for gas all game and consistently had over 1500 minerals, even when he typed out.
I don't have anything against Savior being #2, but the suggestion that games 2 and 3 were even remotely closely contested is inconceivable to me.
yeah the games weren really close, BUT u have to take into consideration that savior went for all-in hydra shenanigans in both games. In game 2 he forced a cpl minutes where it really was close (when he had hyds in bisus base and killed nexus) and anybody could have taken the game at that point. Game 3 though he went for a predictable and eventually probe-scouted hydra timing bo, which was dumb². Against bisu u pretty much auto-lose at that point. I think he put up a pretty good fight considering he already lost when the probe scouted his 3 hatching hydras. But yeah it wasnt really close. Still I would say Savior played better than last time they met, he just chose VERY bad strategies in game 2 and 3. Im sad he never went for that Mass expo mass muta strat or tried his good old defensive outmacro style... He was too agressive and paid for it.
On December 01 2007 20:27 Hot_Bid wrote: Just a clarification, it wasn't 1 base to 4, Savior had literally no drones mining at 2.5 of his bases, so let's not get carried away with how ahead Savior was that game.
The fact remains that the series was the closest Bisu has ever come to losing a PvZ best-of-X, which is the point in dispute
In the third game, Savior defended Bisu's early harass flawlessly, and as a result his economy was in full juggernaut mode.
I disagree. Flawlessly would be killing the shuttle, reaver or at least a few of the corsairs. Flawlessly would be defending it but maintaining enough offense to at least delay Bisu's island expo. Savior did not do any of this. The point of the early harass is two fold, to kill drones and ovies but also keep Savior in his base as Bisu took his third.
If you harass with mutas and kill no SCVs (because I built 80 turrets, or have inhuman mm control, whatever), but I kill no mutas and let you take 2 expos, did I defend your harass "flawlessly?" Absolutely not.
On December 01 2007 20:27 Hot_Bid wrote: Just a clarification, it wasn't 1 base to 4, Savior had literally no drones mining at 2.5 of his bases, so let's not get carried away with how ahead Savior was that game.
The fact remains that the series was the closest Bisu has ever come to losing a PvZ best-of-X, which is the point in dispute
First, I'm not arguing on that point, I said "just a clarification." I'm not Haji, I'm just stating an inaccurate point in your analysis. Bisu was not that far behind in that game, he traded his bottom nexus for like 12 ovies. That's all I'm saying, that "1 base to 4" is simply inaccurate, as a full saturated mining base P vs 1.5 mining base Z is far far different than true 1:4. Surely you can see how this point is separate from "Bisu has never come closer to losing a PvZ series."
Good job on the power rank by the way! I agree with all the players that are on it, though there are a couple that I might move up or down maybe one rank, but then again, I probably haven't looked at it as extensively as you.
In the third game, Savior defended Bisu's early harass flawlessly, and as a result his economy was in full juggernaut mode.
I disagree. Flawlessly would be killing the shuttle, reaver or at least a few of the corsairs. Flawlessly would be defending it but maintaining enough offense to at least delay Bisu's island expo. Savior did not do any of this. The point of the early harass is two fold, to kill drones and ovies but also keep Savior in his base as Bisu took his third.
If you harass with mutas and kill no SCVs (because I built 80 turrets, or have inhuman mm control, whatever), but I kill no mutas and let you take 2 expos, did I defend your harass "flawlessly?" Absolutely not.
On December 01 2007 20:27 Hot_Bid wrote: Just a clarification, it wasn't 1 base to 4, Savior had literally no drones mining at 2.5 of his bases, so let's not get carried away with how ahead Savior was that game.
The fact remains that the series was the closest Bisu has ever come to losing a PvZ best-of-X, which is the point in dispute
First, I'm not arguing on that point, I said "just a clarification." I'm not Haji, I'm just stating an inaccurate point in your analysis. Bisu was not that far behind in that game, he traded his bottom nexus for like 12 ovies. That's all I'm saying, not that the series didn't push Bisu far.
Do you want to argue semantics some more?
These are the facts:
Bisu was dangerously close to losing that second game Bisu has never been that close to losing a PvZ series
This is what was disputed, but its indisputable. Everything else was brought up to nullify the notion that any old Protoss could have recovered from the deficit presented in that second game, including the things I said about the third game which are a testament to Bisu's superiority to other Protoss players.
Do you really want to argue the definition of "flawless"?
In the third game, Savior defended Bisu's early harass flawlessly, and as a result his economy was in full juggernaut mode.
It's not a semantical argument, the harass was designed to keep Savior in his base. You say he defended it "flawlessly" and even if you didn't mean true perfection, you mean that Savior defended to a point where it was advantageous for Savior. Your statement implies Savior came out ahead after defending early harass. I disagree with this.
At best, Savior's defense of Bisu's early harass was a wash, no player came out with advantage. This is because Savior did not manage to kill corsairs or the shuttle or reaver, and allowed Bisu to take a 3rd gas unmolested.
Though I suspect Bisu, even if he killed no drones, managed to get a few ovies and secure a 3rd at virtually no cost, which is an advantage for him.
On December 01 2007 20:26 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: The third game is inconsequential to the statement 'savior pushed bisu farther than he's ever been pushed before in a pvz series
.
The fact remains that the series was the closest Bisu has ever come to losing a PvZ best-of-X, which is the point in dispute'
If you claim that the contents of the 3rd game are irrelevant to 'bisu being pushed farther than ever in a pvz series', (thereby not hinging your argument on how close the matches were gameplay wise - which you yourself have admitted that savior came nowhere close to defeating bisu) and base your argument on the "how deep" a series went, then your claim would be even more incorrect than otherwise.
So Savior got Bisu to 1-1 heading into a 3rd game.
Let's look back....
+ 06-07-20 MBC Survivor 8th The Eye (Z)Rumble Win + 06-07-20 MBC Survivor 8th Arcadia (Z)Rumble Loss + 06-05-23 MBC Survivor 8th 815 III (Z)Silver Loss
+ 06-09-28 MBC Survivor 9th Longinus (Z)ToSky[S.G] Loss + 06-09-28 MBC Survivor 9th Blitz (Z)ToSky[S.G] Win + 06-09-28 MBC Survivor 9th Sin Peaks of Bae.. (Z)ToSky[S.G] Win
+ 07-07-01 GOMTV MSL S2 Monty Hall (Z)GoRush Win + 07-07-01 GOMTV MSL S2 Desperado (Z)GoRush Win + 07-07-01 GOMTV MSL S2 Python (Z)GoRush Loss + 07-07-01 GOMTV MSL S2 Loki (Z)GoRush Win
Three times, Bisu has been pushed to a 3rd game in a bo3 series, and Gorush also made a series 1-1 going into a 3rd game. Unless you are going to try to wiggle your way out by claiming "Bisu wasn't Bisu yet in mid-2006", your statistical claim is simply false. And even if you do make the claim that Bisu was still not his bonjwa self, it will not make a difference in demonstrating that your all-inclusive claim that "the series was the closest Bisu has ever come to losing a PvZ best-of-X" is untrue.
First, a Survivor group from over a year ago is hardly relevant
Second, Bisu was nowhere near losing either of his games to Tosky, and similarily dominated Child in their third game. The GoRush series was a complete drubbing, why are you mentioning it?
Being one game away from losing a series and being on the edge of destruction in an elimination game are two entirely different things, come on. This is Power Rank, not TLPD Rank. Statistical analyses of wins and losses doesn't clear cut anything.
Also, I agree with you, FakeSteve, that this was the farthest he's been pushed. All those statistics are great Haji, but we really are talking about current Bisu, the PvZ monster, not old Bisu, who likely lost series in the PSL trying to qualify for Survivor.
And the Child and GoRush series were definitely not as close as the Savior one. The GoRush one is not even worth debating, and in the Child one, at no point in the two "elimination" games (on HH and Arkanoid) did Child have Bisu in trouble. Savior at one point in the game on Katrina did, though it was not as bad as 4:1 base as FakeSteve said.
I will concede that i should have clarified that four bases to one didn't mean 'four bases full of drones to one base full of probes', but it sure doesn't make a difference to my point.
So you are now using the contents of games rather than statistical facts like you initially claimed in order to defend your statement - the exact thing you said you were not going to do?
And as Hotbid has presented, whether or not Bisu was truly "at the brink of elimination" is clearly debatable. And with these two sides combined, your "indisputable" claim falls apart and becomes, at best, unclear.
Hopefully this will, at the least, teach you never to use "this is indisputable" - because everything is, by definition, disputable. By making absolute statements you simply invite problems like this that could have been avoided. Simply changing "closest ever" to something along the lines of "closest in recent times" has a dramatic effect on how "indisputable" your claim becomes.
On December 01 2007 20:48 thedeadhaji wrote: So you are now using the contents of games rather than statistical facts like you initially claimed in order to defend your statement - the exact thing you said you were not going to do?
Excuse me? Not once did I use statistical facts. The statement that Bisu has never been so close to elimination is based around the events of that second game, not the fact that Bisu was down 0-1 going into it.
And as Hotbid has presented, whether or not Bisu was truly "at the brink of elimination" is clearly debatable. And with these two sides combined, your "indisputable" claim falls apart and becomes, at best, unclear.
Hopefully this will, at the least, teach you never to use "this is indisputable" - because everything is, by definition, disputable. By making absolute statements you simply invite problems like this that could have been avoided. Simply changing "closest ever" to something along the lines of "closest in recent times" has a dramatic effect on how "indisputable" your claim becomes.
In game 3 of savior vs bisu, Savior had no chance to damage Bisu's economy in the beginning except for some sort of all-in attempt. Savior went fast hydras before lair (i think) and by the time 6-7 hydras + lings came to Bisu's expansion, Bisu already had plenty of cannons. The bridges outside the expansion also makes it hard to attack effectively. Bisu's third expansion was also an island, well-fortified with cannons also. There wasn't really any way for Savior to harass Bisu or damage his economy except some fast + hydras and drop strategy, but Bisu had that covered with his corsairs.
So basically, all Savior could do was try to outmacro Bisu but he couldn't keep up. Maybe his APM is too low to keep up the defense all around the map. This game is more of a demonstration of Bisu's superb harass + macromanagement rather than anything about Savior.
The first game was pretty neat, Savior thinking two steps ahead and using a strategy that specifically addressed Bisu's strenghts (fastlings to take away Bisu's superprobes, proxy hatch for offensive detection). That was a great opening volley.
In the second game, Bisu was pretty much on the ropes. Savior managed to take away his nat, and considering how Bisu was going for ReaverSair, that should have crippled him. Bisu then barely defended against the hydras at the gates, while keeping his corsairs on the hunt. Steve is right in saying that no other Protoss mounts a comeback from that situation. Again, it seemed like Savior tweaked his build to deal with Bisu, playing intense mind games (hiding the Hyrda den in the corner of the map, taking middle expo) to keep Bisu guessing.
I posit that just as no protoss other than Bisu could have made that comeback, no Zerg other than Savior pushes Bisu that close to losing. Savior's play was strong and downright scary. He just ran into Bisu, whose decision making was simply inspired.
Here's my conclusion: I believe that Savior's ZvP against Bisu is a little more hesitant, a little lost in direction. He isn't as decisive as he was during the Holy Wars against Nal_Ra. Nonetheless, it's still top quality play that almost broke Bisu this time.
Oh, and UpMagic in the PowerRank is utter garbage.
Steve please stop saying "this is indisputable" when everything you are stating is a matter of opinion and therefore completely disputable(which is why you find it being disputed). Besides you'll have much more luck in your arguments if you don't make absolute statements. I agree with most of what you're saying though on almost all players.
Sea on the other hand, doesn't belong on the power rank.
Edit: lol didn't notice that haji already brought up basically the exact same point.
On December 01 2007 22:02 aeronexus wrote: hahahaha loved reading haji, Steve, & HB's debate... I for one am glad to see Bisu at the top of the list in spite of his unimpressive games vs Mind.
the Bisu vs sAviOr games were definitely some of the most exciting I've seen recently
Same for Me too. It is really interesting, you get much more detailed information if experts does not share same point of view.
On December 01 2007 22:01 HonestTea wrote: I'll chime in with this much.
The first game was pretty neat, Savior thinking two steps ahead and using a strategy that specifically addressed Bisu's strenghts (fastlings to take away Bisu's superprobes, proxy hatch for offensive detection). That was a great opening volley.
In the second game, Bisu was pretty much on the ropes. Savior managed to take away his nat, and considering how Bisu was going for ReaverSair, that should have crippled him. Bisu then barely defended against the hydras at the gates, while keeping his corsairs on the hunt. Steve is right in saying that no other Protoss mounts a comeback from that situation. Again, it seemed like Savior tweaked his build to deal with Bisu, playing intense mind games (hiding the Hyrda den in the corner of the map, taking middle expo) to keep Bisu guessing.
I posit that just as no protoss other than Bisu could have made that comeback, no Zerg other than Savior pushes Bisu that close to losing. Savior's play was strong and downright scary. He just ran into Bisu, whose decision making was simply inspired.
Here's my conclusion: I believe that Savior's ZvP against Bisu is a little more hesitant, a little lost in direction. He isn't as decisive as he was during the Holy Wars against Nal_Ra. Nonetheless, it's still top quality play that almost broke Bisu this time.
Oh, and UpMagic in the PowerRank is utter garbage.
HonestTea to save the day!
I agree with you, Bisu was really close to losing the 2nd game but won it in a brilliant manner.
Oh, and I never really liked UpMagic, I would have liked Anytime to get top10.
I think Hotbid and Haji are being too hard on Savior.
I think Steve was right on in saying that any other toss in the world would have lost that second game. After Bisu's backyard nexus was lost I sighed and almost fast forwarded the vid. Savior was waaaaaay ahead that game, regardless of what you want to say about his drone count.
Bisu's corsair use was absolutely insane. No one else could have pulled that game out.
Game three may as well be irrelavent because the series would have been 2-0 and over had it been another toss.
Obviously that's all wild speculation, but it makes sense to me. As a basis for the rankings, I completely agree with steve.
I think Savior does what no other Zerg players do. He's creative ! He's trying new stuff. I'm sure eventually he'll beat Bisu. But today was not the day for him Savior has to make Bisu pay for the early expo, otherwise, a toss with strong econ and Bisu's skill is unstoppable. More spore colonies or maybe ensnare ? I think ensnare would be such a delight for his fans too
Very nice rankings!! Only thing I would even consider changing is switching up stork and jaedong.
Also, I like upmagic's style and usually root for him when he plays, but I'm not too confident about his ability to maintain solid and consistent play that is enough for him to win a major tournament. Also, in my opinion he hasn't proved himself to be dominant in any of the three matchups (TvT is arguable, but tough). I do agree, though, that he deserves his spot for the achievements he has racked up recently through sound strategy and innovative and well-executed plays.
Savior lost to Mind too, but he also pushed Bisu farther than Bisu has ever been pushed in a PvZ series. Watch the second and third games of the Savior/Bisu series and honestly tell me that any other Protoss in the world could have won those games.
Excuse me? I am sorry to dismiss your judgment but this is absolutely absurd. I've watched games 2 and 3 over and over, at least 10 times now, trying to convince myself that they were actually good, close games. They weren't. Much to my dismay, Bisu destroyed Savior - again.
In game 2, yes Bisu did lose his back expansion. But do you know how many overlords Savior lost that game? At Least Twenty-Three!!!. Savior exceeded 60 supply only momentarily in the game, and aside from the initial drop, was never able to gain control of the game flow. He was consistently choked for supply space due to losing overlords, and as a consequence had over 1000 gas yet no minerals.
Just look at his supply count to cap ratio ~24 minutes into the vod. Savior goes from 68 supply cap to 100, despite having only 50 units and getting hammered at his 3rd base?? What kind of zerg player, who is in any semblance of control of the game, has a gap of over 50 between his supply value and supply count?
Bisu was hitting Savior everywhere, constantly forcing Savior to move his units out of position for the next attack. Savior lost his 4th base to just a half-group of zealots, and his attempts at cracking Bisu's front door looked desperate and unwise.
I reiterate that after Savior's first drop, he NEVER had any chance of taking that game.
In game 3 Savior never so much as touched Bisu's economy while Bisu was frying his drones repeatedly. His 3 attempts to damage Bisu's expansions utterly failed, first at the mineral only, then at the nat, and finally at the island. Even when Savior looked decent after deflecting Bisu's army with swarm and cracklings, he was never able to get to within even FIFTY supply of Bisu all the way until he tapped out. Said army was destroyed by Bisu's next wave, and 3 minutes later we'd see Savior losing everything in an all-in drop at 5 o'clock.
While he managed to save his overlords midgame this time, he nevertheless lost nearly 30 drones (yes, I counted them) to templar drops. Savior was extremely strapped for gas all game and consistently had over 1500 minerals, even when he typed out.
I don't have anything against Savior being #2, but the suggestion that games 2 and 3 were even remotely closely contested is inconceivable to me.
yeah the games weren really close, BUT u have to take into consideration that savior went for all-in hydra shenanigans in both games. In game 2 he forced a cpl minutes where it really was close (when he had hyds in bisus base and killed nexus) and anybody could have taken the game at that point. Game 3 though he went for a predictable and eventually probe-scouted hydra timing bo, which was dumb². Against bisu u pretty much auto-lose at that point. I think he put up a pretty good fight considering he already lost when the probe scouted his 3 hatching hydras. But yeah it wasnt really close. Still I would say Savior played better than last time they met, he just chose VERY bad strategies in game 2 and 3. Im sad he never went for that Mass expo mass muta strat or tried his good old defensive outmacro style... He was too agressive and paid for it.
Savior never intended to do an all-in hydra attack in game 3. He got just enough hydras to make Bisu worry that an all-in was coming so that Bisu would make extra cannons, cut probes, and change his build order. The only mistake savior made was letting a probe see the hydras in his base rather than making Bisu's first view of the hydras be at Bisu's natural.
Hmm Id put Mind higher than stork and Jaedong Otherwise its pretty perfect Hopefully Mind will be even higher judging by what weve seen in today's matches hes turning into Wemade's new ace
ehh. I dont understand why you guys are arguing about one word in an opinion piece.
I mean, it should be obvious that thats an opinion.
If fakesteve plays it by the book, and avoids controversy, it will be an incredbily sterile and boring power rank. This power rank has a ton more personality and entertainment (even if pretty much every one agreed with his picks/justification last time). The end result? This power rank is indisputably better than the last one.
I also agree with fakesteve and honesttea. At one point, bisu was on one base and savior was attacking like mad at both the front and back door. Face it, if Bisu doesnt have those reavers, or those reavers are flying around somewhere in a shuttle, savior breaks through.
If haji can show me a game where modern bisu is pushed as hard as savior pushed him in game 2, I'll give up my point. But statistics from 2006, and arguments like child = savior because both went 1-2 vs bisu are beyond ridiculous. Im sure most people watched those child games and can tell the difference.
Having said that, game three wasnt even close. It was obvious by the time bisu took the island that the game was over.
Bisu vs Savior was boner inducing. Glad to see them both on top of the ranking.
Though I think you discredit Flash a bit too much... was it only me who saw the nervousness in Storks eyes that Bo3? And how relieved he was when he pulled through?
Great list Steve, I can't really argue too much. I think GGPlay deserves a spot on cbnc after going 4-2 this month in pl and making in through msl offline qualifying.
game 3 of savior vs bisu was basically a giant rape. the map gives protoss a very easy third gas, and because he was near the bridges it was difficult for a savior to attack (bisu had 5 cannons up anyway). savior was never in the game. his initial no lair hydra was foiled, and it was all downhill from there.
in game 2, i figured when he took the nexus down he would bunker up to deal with the corsiars and then win on econ. instead he pushed, lost a ton overlords and lost the game. it wasnt so black and white like that, but you get the idea. it was super super close. if a few things went differently we would be touting savior as the shit with a 2-0 win.
On December 01 2007 21:01 Obi-1.Kulinobi wrote: where is free?
gone!
Btw very nice reading , it's awesome Thanks =D I gotta Agree Mind has an incredible game sense even though macro/micro has nothing special , his decision are accurate and so good most of the time , it's amazing.
On December 01 2007 21:01 Obi-1.Kulinobi wrote: where is free?
gone!
Btw very nice reading , it's awesome Thanks =D I gotta Agree Mind has an incredible game sense even though macro/micro has nothing special , his decision are accurate and so good most of the time , it's amazing.
Mind does have killer macro. You guys missed it? You don't crush Oov and beat Savior lategame without it. I really agree with Mind higher, other scrubs lower. I don't even like Mind but... Consider this, Anytime says he loses more to Hwasin than beats him in their cross-team practices, Hwasin is Bisu's insurance. Mind just raped Bisu. And you guys as well as me saw the sickest rape. Bisu didn't not play well. Mind just stepped on him... step step step. I remember cuz I lost 400 bucks feelin sad. T.T I know circular logic doesn't work in SC, but consider who Mind is... He's MSL champ now that went through just about every great previous MSL champ on his brackets. That makes him KING OF KINGSSs -_-;; for this month in my head.
Savior/Bisu games... Only time it was close was on Katrina when Savior raped that back Nex. The third game was T.T and the 2nd half of the 2nd was T.T Everyone told me to watch and I did... I just ended up feeling bad that my favorite Zerg looked so weak... sigh. I mean, mass sairs is imba -_________-;;
The best game in OSL was Hwasin/Upmagic. I think what Upmagic did at those positions on Katrina are REALLY worth looking closely at. 12 v 3 on Katrina is hell. 3 base has the biggest and faggest drop front to defend. I really like how he raped, yes raped, Hwasin with management. His map control and scouting, his game flow, really good. He had hacks on on the left side of the map most game. This game made me like Up a lot more... a lot more...
Sea.. lol ~_~. He passes an OSC group so you put him in power rank? I mean, I can understand Much, he's on a tear. Sea passes an OSC and his forecast looks good ~_~ ok. I'd rather have Flash on the list. That said, I think plenty of people can beat Sea in the upcoming OSC.
All that said, I forgot say, GJ Steve. I'm not tragically sad at this PR but I definately disagree with lots of it. So much I'd punch your teeth out... in a loving way.
I know this may sound harsh, but I believe Hwasin should be kicked off the power rank completely. He has not played a single game as of late that shows style, and he's not even winning them. Since the power rank isn't about overall ability through the course of years, I believe he isn't deserving of a spot.
Still, you'd be a fool to think he isn't going to wreck everyone that stands in the way of another MSL/OSL double berth.
So yes, I am a fool. He'll probably beat no namers, but the second you see somebody familiar, he'll fall. You heard it here first.
On December 02 2007 04:32 SuperJongMan wrote: lol.. I disagree with a lot of what's said here.
Mind does have killer macro. You guys missed it? You don't crush Oov and beat Savior lategame without it. I really agree with Mind higher, other scrubs lower. I don't even like Mind but... Consider this, Anytime says he loses more to Hwasin than beats him in their cross-team practices, Hwasin is Bisu's insurance. Mind just raped Bisu. And you guys as well as me saw the sickest rape. Bisu didn't not play well. Mind just stepped on him... step step step. I remember cuz I lost 400 bucks feelin sad. T.T I know circular logic doesn't work in SC, but consider who Mind is... He's MSL champ now that went through just about every great previous MSL champ on his brackets. That makes him KING OF KINGSSs -_-;; for this month in my head.
Savior/Bisu games... Only time it was close was on Katrina when Savior raped that back Nex. The third game was T.T and the 2nd half of the 2nd was T.T Everyone told me to watch and I did... I just ended up feeling bad that my favorite Zerg looked so weak... sigh. I mean, mass sairs is imba -_________-;;
The best game in OSL was Hwasin/Upmagic. I think what Upmagic did at those positions on Katrina are REALLY worth looking closely at. 12 v 3 on Katrina is hell. 3 base has the biggest and faggest drop front to defend. I really like how he raped, yes raped, Hwasin with management. His map control and scouting, his game flow, really good. He had hacks on on the left side of the map most game. This game made me like Up a lot more... a lot more...
Sea.. lol ~_~. He passes an OSC group so you put him in power rank? I mean, I can understand Much, he's on a tear. Sea passes an OSC and his forecast looks good ~_~ ok. I'd rather have Flash on the list. That said, I think plenty of people can beat Sea in the upcoming OSC.
All that said, I forgot say, GJ Steve. I'm not tragically sad at this PR but I definately disagree with lots of it. So much I'd punch your teeth out... in a loving way.
Power Rank is about who is playing best right now. Flash's OSL group was shit easy for him, but not because he's particularily strong, and then he lost to Stork. He didn't look good in any of the games. After watching Flash's games and watching Sea and Much play, I came to the conclusion that both Sea and Much are playing significantly better than Flash.
On December 02 2007 04:32 SuperJongMan wrote: lol.. I disagree with a lot of what's said here.
Mind does have killer macro. You guys missed it? You don't crush Oov and beat Savior lategame without it. I really agree with Mind higher, other scrubs lower. I don't even like Mind but... Consider this, Anytime says he loses more to Hwasin than beats him in their cross-team practices, Hwasin is Bisu's insurance. Mind just raped Bisu. And you guys as well as me saw the sickest rape. Bisu didn't not play well. Mind just stepped on him... step step step. I remember cuz I lost 400 bucks feelin sad. T.T I know circular logic doesn't work in SC, but consider who Mind is... He's MSL champ now that went through just about every great previous MSL champ on his brackets. That makes him KING OF KINGSSs -_-;; for this month in my head.
Savior/Bisu games... Only time it was close was on Katrina when Savior raped that back Nex. The third game was T.T and the 2nd half of the 2nd was T.T Everyone told me to watch and I did... I just ended up feeling bad that my favorite Zerg looked so weak... sigh. I mean, mass sairs is imba -_________-;;
The best game in OSL was Hwasin/Upmagic. I think what Upmagic did at those positions on Katrina are REALLY worth looking closely at. 12 v 3 on Katrina is hell. 3 base has the biggest and faggest drop front to defend. I really like how he raped, yes raped, Hwasin with management. His map control and scouting, his game flow, really good. He had hacks on on the left side of the map most game. This game made me like Up a lot more... a lot more...
Sea.. lol ~_~. He passes an OSC group so you put him in power rank? I mean, I can understand Much, he's on a tear. Sea passes an OSC and his forecast looks good ~_~ ok. I'd rather have Flash on the list. That said, I think plenty of people can beat Sea in the upcoming OSC.
All that said, I forgot say, GJ Steve. I'm not tragically sad at this PR but I definately disagree with lots of it. So much I'd punch your teeth out... in a loving way.
Power Rank is about who is playing best right now. Flash's OSL group was shit easy for him, but not because he's particularily strong, and then he lost to Stork. He didn't look good in any of the games. After watching Flash's games and watching Sea and Much play, I came to the conclusion that both Sea and Much are playing significantly better than Flash.
Honestly Steve young Flash just wins. He's done more in his starleague career than Sea's ever done. I agree Sea is the better play, but if Flash just wins the trademark of a great player.
Also, GGPlay (4-2 Proleague winning making it to MSL survivor) and maybe Xellos for CBNC. Maybe not Xellos, but he did make MSL Semis and look pretty good doing so.
Shudder made OSL and MSL group stage too, and nobody wants to make a case for him. Shudder lost because his group was far more difficult than Frozean, Rock, and Savior's recent ZvT. Flash plays better than Shudder, but neither of them play as good as Sea and Much are currently playing.
GGPlay and Xellos fall into the category of 'players who are doing reasonably well but don't deserve a power rank spot'. There are lots of players in this category, and like I said I chose to specifically mention only those four because they're the most relevant to happenings this month
Great Power Rank Steve! Savior could be put a bit lower, since I think any top Terran can basically beat him nowadays (Hwasin, Iris, Light, Flash, etc), but it hardly matters because Bisu is first. (:D)GC
On a somewhat related note, where is the December Kespa ranking?
I agree with your ranks Steve, but I'm saying despite you saying he doesn't play well Flash keeps getting results. Good ranks though looking forward to the new ones once OSL has concluded.
if anytime makes it out of his OSC group, he should be on the bottom top 10 somewhere. i mean, he has a much harder group than sea for his OSC group, and he did qualify for MSL. he also is doing very well in proleague
Savior is having problems with Bisu mainly because there simply is not an answer for zerg to counter what Bisu does (fast expo, constant harrass, mass sair, macro while doing all of the above and then win). He's trying to invent an answer, but hasn't been able to do so yet. When he does (or somebody else does), it will probably be the next revolution of Starcraft.
Mind is better than Bisu. Or at least I think/ hope so.
Bisu v Savior game three. When Savior dropped Bisu destroying the natural, he also went around for a frontal attack a moment later. I think the frontal attack was the mistake. Basically Bisu had his way with Saviors overlords from that point. Dedicating those frontal attack hydralisk to Ovi defense may have made the game for Savior.
I'm also wondering about Pusan, I thought he may make this power rank. I mean who is the ace master Pusan or Much? ^_^. Pusan has been incredible lately, he is 27-11 recently and has one of the best PvP percentages. MBC knows how to train their protoss.
On December 02 2007 16:07 Nick_54 wrote: Pusan's chances kinda went to shit after he lost to FBH and this mediocre zerg whos name i can't remember to get knocked of MSL survivor.
dont know who it wrote but i think it was fakesteve himself "powerrank is not about who was hot 2 months ago..:" so i assume powerrank is not about who might be hot in the future that said, hawsins placement looks kinda funny as i dont remember him delivering anything this month
On December 02 2007 04:32 SuperJongMan wrote: lol.. I disagree with a lot of what's said here.
Mind does have killer macro. You guys missed it? You don't crush Oov and beat Savior lategame without it. I really agree with Mind higher, other scrubs lower. I don't even like Mind but... Consider this, Anytime says he loses more to Hwasin than beats him in their cross-team practices, Hwasin is Bisu's insurance. Mind just raped Bisu. And you guys as well as me saw the sickest rape. Bisu didn't not play well. Mind just stepped on him... step step step. I remember cuz I lost 400 bucks feelin sad. T.T I know circular logic doesn't work in SC, but consider who Mind is... He's MSL champ now that went through just about every great previous MSL champ on his brackets. That makes him KING OF KINGSSs -_-;; for this month in my head.
Savior/Bisu games... Only time it was close was on Katrina when Savior raped that back Nex. The third game was T.T and the 2nd half of the 2nd was T.T Everyone told me to watch and I did... I just ended up feeling bad that my favorite Zerg looked so weak... sigh. I mean, mass sairs is imba -_________-;;
The best game in OSL was Hwasin/Upmagic. I think what Upmagic did at those positions on Katrina are REALLY worth looking closely at. 12 v 3 on Katrina is hell. 3 base has the biggest and faggest drop front to defend. I really like how he raped, yes raped, Hwasin with management. His map control and scouting, his game flow, really good. He had hacks on on the left side of the map most game. This game made me like Up a lot more... a lot more...
Sea.. lol ~_~. He passes an OSC group so you put him in power rank? I mean, I can understand Much, he's on a tear. Sea passes an OSC and his forecast looks good ~_~ ok. I'd rather have Flash on the list. That said, I think plenty of people can beat Sea in the upcoming OSC.
All that said, I forgot say, GJ Steve. I'm not tragically sad at this PR but I definately disagree with lots of it. So much I'd punch your teeth out... in a loving way.
On December 02 2007 21:57 Hot_Bid wrote: Piste, TheFoReveRwaR, joeki, can you name and justify "many players" who you think should be there instead of Sea? I doubt you can.
Almost every single player that qualified for the MSL RO 16 and OSL RO 16. They all were argueably more successful than Sea. Keep in mind what the Power Rank really is. I think Sea is an extremely good player. I also understand that many times he gets stuck in tough groups. However, power rank is about results, and Sea is never able to show them. Sure he preforms well in proleague, but only because that's ALL he ever has to focus on, because despite his skills he never seems to qualify for individual leagues. The ranking is not a measurement of potential. It's a measurement of who is playing the best in a months worth of time.
Because you asked for names: TheMania, ForGG, Free, Kwanro(the guy that beat Sea in MSL..ya remember that?), Xellos and others. Flash too.
"Flash - Flash's deal is basically squeaking past group stages in OSL and then losing to the first good player he faces in the bracket rounds. This kid will have to do something to show me he has a legitimate shot at a final before he sees Power Rank time."
And Sea's deal is failing to even make it into the group stages, losing to the first mediocre player he faces when the stakes really matter. You say Flash's groups were easy. Look at who Sea is playing. And losing to Stork PvT is no shame what so ever. You say "looking at the games Sea is playing much better". LOOK WHO SEA IS PLAYING. Such awesome powerhouses like Skyhigh, Best, Calm, and Magma! Wow look out! He did get a win against anytime but also lost against a very mediocre Chalrenge. If he had played Stork, he would be raped. Then he wouldn't look so good. The only A class player other than Anytime he has won against recently is Midas, who has been anything but A class recently.
The reason Sea is so hyped is because we consistantly see him facing relatively weak opponents in a no pressure type stage, he hasn't even had to play aces in proleaguerecently. On top of that Sea is often playing either rookies/new blood or players who are preparing for 1 or sometimes even 2 other leagues. The result is an overrated player(for now). The only thing Steve that "convinces" you that players like Flash don't have a legitimate shot at a title, while players like Sea do, is your gay lo..err bias for him What else could be the reason when Flash has managed to qualify for an OSL twice, while Sea has done absolutely nothing? How long before you stop finding excuses for Sea and actually look at the results?
On December 02 2007 21:57 Hot_Bid wrote: Piste, TheFoReveRwaR, joeki, can you name and justify "many players" who you think should be there instead of Sea? I doubt you can.
anyone who actually manages to qualify to MSL/OSL once in a while.
On December 02 2007 21:57 Hot_Bid wrote: Piste, TheFoReveRwaR, joeki, can you name and justify "many players" who you think should be there instead of Sea? I doubt you can.
anyone who actually manages to qualify to MSL/OSL once in a while.
You cant have seen sea's games if you say that, sea's nothing short of amazing, and he doesn't have any especially convincing losses to proove otherwise.
I don't know anything about these players, but allow me to just make one interjection - it's a hell of a lot easier looking good, and displaying good play, against poorer opponents. Against a BGH newb, even Child could look like Savior, and demonstrate 'amazing play'. It's very very difficult to define an absolute measure of 'impressive play'.
As a result, I'm not so inclined to buy FakeSteve's argument for Sea, given that it is wholly predicated on 'Sea WRECKED his OSC group', when all that really means is that Sea beat two no-name players that many other OSL-level Terrans could probably have beaten as well, and looked equally good doing so.
Light is overrated, i dont understand u placing him on that list. And Mind should get atleast before Jaedong. Jaedong only has strong ZvT as allways, his preformance early this months with several losses vs poor players doesnt deserve him that spot tbh, compared to Minds champion runover mania, savior AND bisu, all top players 3 different race. Mind delivers!
On December 03 2007 06:59 ThePhan2m wrote: Light is overrated, i dont understand u placing him on that list. And Mind should get atleast before Jaedong. Jaedong only has strong ZvT as allways, his preformance early this months with several losses vs poor players doesnt deserve him that spot tbh, compared to Minds champion runover mania, savior AND bisu, all top players 3 different race. Mind delivers!
Jaedong's ZvZ is almost as flawless as the matchup gets and I wouldn't say mania is a "top player"
edit: Wait, Mind is fifth behind Jaedong already. On another note, I'd love to watch JD vs. Mind.
On December 03 2007 06:59 ThePhan2m wrote: Light is overrated, i dont understand u placing him on that list. And Mind should get atleast before Jaedong. Jaedong only has strong ZvT as allways, his preformance early this months with several losses vs poor players doesnt deserve him that spot tbh, compared to Minds champion runover mania, savior AND bisu, all top players 3 different race. Mind delivers!
Jaedong's ZvZ is almost as flawless as the matchup gets and I wouldn't say mania is a "top player"
edit: Wait, Mind is fifth behind Jaedong already. On another note, I'd love to watch JD vs. Mind.
If you see who he lost ZvZ vs this month, i have never heard of those players, even tho ZvZ is propably the mu where margins are least, I wouldnt say Jaedong has an almost flawless ZvZ. And ok, mania isnt really top.
Savior lost to Mind too, but he also pushed Bisu farther than Bisu has ever been pushed in a PvZ series. Watch the second and third games of the Savior/Bisu series and honestly tell me that any other Protoss in the world could have won those games.
Excuse me? I am sorry to dismiss your judgment but this is absolutely absurd. I've watched games 2 and 3 over and over, at least 10 times now, trying to convince myself that they were actually good, close games. They weren't. Much to my dismay, Bisu destroyed Savior - again.
In game 2, yes Bisu did lose his back expansion. But do you know how many overlords Savior lost that game? At Least Twenty-Three!!!. Savior exceeded 60 supply only momentarily in the game, and aside from the initial drop, was never able to gain control of the game flow. He was consistently choked for supply space due to losing overlords, and as a consequence had over 1000 gas yet no minerals.
Just look at his supply count to cap ratio ~24 minutes into the vod. Savior goes from 68 supply cap to 100, despite having only 50 units and getting hammered at his 3rd base?? What kind of zerg player, who is in any semblance of control of the game, has a gap of over 50 between his supply value and supply count?
Bisu was hitting Savior everywhere, constantly forcing Savior to move his units out of position for the next attack. Savior lost his 4th base to just a half-group of zealots, and his attempts at cracking Bisu's front door looked desperate and unwise.
I reiterate that after Savior's first drop, he NEVER had any chance of taking that game.
In game 3 Savior never so much as touched Bisu's economy while Bisu was frying his drones repeatedly. His 3 attempts to damage Bisu's expansions utterly failed, first at the mineral only, then at the nat, and finally at the island. Even when Savior looked decent after deflecting Bisu's army with swarm and cracklings, he was never able to get to within even FIFTY supply of Bisu all the way until he tapped out. Said army was destroyed by Bisu's next wave, and 3 minutes later we'd see Savior losing everything in an all-in drop at 5 o'clock.
While he managed to save his overlords midgame this time, he nevertheless lost nearly 30 drones (yes, I counted them) to templar drops. Savior was extremely strapped for gas all game and consistently had over 1500 minerals, even when he typed out.
I don't have anything against Savior being #2, but the suggestion that games 2 and 3 were even remotely closely contested is inconceivable to me.
Okay, I'll explain this very clearly. If this was in person I'd talk reaaaal sloooow liiiike thiiiiiiiis~
I didn't say Savior was close to winning those games. I said any Protoss besides Bisu would not have won those games. This is indisputable.
In game 2, Bisu had lost his nat nexus and was on the brink of death before his corsair heroics and perfectly timed Zealot attacks pulled him even. This is the closest Bisu has EVER been pushes to elimination in a PvZ series. This is indisputable.
In that second game, any protoss besides Bisu would not execute the overlord, zealot, and reaver harass in a manner that allows them to win a game in which they have one base to four. Bisu, however, does happen to be Bisu.
In the third game, Savior defended Bisu's early harass flawlessly, and as a result his economy was in full juggernaut mode. However, Bisu's inhuman multitasking allowed him ridiculous macro while simultaneously harassing with corsairs, storm drops, and reavers. No other protoss on earth is capable of multitasking to that level. No other protoss on earth would be able to stop Savior once his economy hit the peak it hit in that game. Not a single one.
I didn't suggest that Savior played better than Bisu and I certainly didn't suggest that Savior had it in the bag but totally fucked up. Bisu completely outplayed Savior in those two games, but no other Protoss would have pulled off those wins. Not a fucking chance.
That is my same thought. Bisu finally proved me and when I say finally I don't mean that I didnt think he was good. I mean that HE IS THE FUCKING KING OF SC NOW!
Nobody , Nobody, nobody on earth would of won against savior in those 2 last games. Bisu's micro, macro, style, harassment, sense of game, mind games are just excellent. But then again if Bisu died Savior would be the dictator again.
On December 03 2007 02:04 GrandInquisitor wrote: I don't know anything about these players, but allow me to just make one interjection - it's a hell of a lot easier looking good, and displaying good play, against poorer opponents. Against a BGH newb, even Child could look like Savior, and demonstrate 'amazing play'. It's very very difficult to define an absolute measure of 'impressive play'.
As a result, I'm not so inclined to buy FakeSteve's argument for Sea, given that it is wholly predicated on 'Sea WRECKED his OSC group', when all that really means is that Sea beat two no-name players that many other OSL-level Terrans could probably have beaten as well, and looked equally good doing so.
you obviously don't know anything about these players
On December 03 2007 02:04 GrandInquisitor wrote: I don't know anything about these players, but allow me to just make one interjection - it's a hell of a lot easier looking good, and displaying good play, against poorer opponents. Against a BGH newb, even Child could look like Savior, and demonstrate 'amazing play'. It's very very difficult to define an absolute measure of 'impressive play'.
As a result, I'm not so inclined to buy FakeSteve's argument for Sea, given that it is wholly predicated on 'Sea WRECKED his OSC group', when all that really means is that Sea beat two no-name players that many other OSL-level Terrans could probably have beaten as well, and looked equally good doing so.
you obviously don't know anything about these players
And you know tons I'm sure. Which you clearly demonstrated in your well thought out and completely in depth counter to his post.
On December 03 2007 02:04 GrandInquisitor wrote: I don't know anything about these players, but allow me to just make one interjection - it's a hell of a lot easier looking good, and displaying good play, against poorer opponents. Against a BGH newb, even Child could look like Savior, and demonstrate 'amazing play'. It's very very difficult to define an absolute measure of 'impressive play'.
As a result, I'm not so inclined to buy FakeSteve's argument for Sea, given that it is wholly predicated on 'Sea WRECKED his OSC group', when all that really means is that Sea beat two no-name players that many other OSL-level Terrans could probably have beaten as well, and looked equally good doing so.
you obviously don't know anything about these players
And you know tons I'm sure. Which you clearly demonstrated in your well thought out and completely in depth counter to his post.
i just told him what he told me
he said "I don't know anything about these players, "
I like to think of this ranking as who I would choose to play a game of SC for me at this moment in time if my life depended on the win--in other words, who I feel will win games most consistently, even while under pressure. Not sure how exactly FakeSteve chooses rankings or the criteria he prioritizes, but his opinions match mine fairly well.
Please don't be condescending to me with the "Happy now?" Especially when you are completely wrong, and half your suggestions show you have no clue what's going on.
On December 02 2007 22:07 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Almost every single player that qualified for the MSL RO 16 and OSL RO 16. They all were argueably more successful than Sea. Keep in mind what the Power Rank really is. I think Sea is an extremely good player. I also understand that many times he gets stuck in tough groups. However, power rank is about results, and Sea is never able to show them. Sure he preforms well in proleague, but only because that's ALL he ever has to focus on, because despite his skills he never seems to qualify for individual leagues. The ranking is not a measurement of potential. It's a measurement of who is playing the best in a months worth of time.
You should remember what Power Rank is, it's a measure of how good a player is regardless of results.
Even so, the pure results side of the argument destroys your players anyway, here's why:
Because you asked for names: TheMania, ForGG, Free, Kwanro(the guy that beat Sea in MSL..ya remember that?), Xellos and others. Flash too.
This is NOVEMBER power rank, so I don't know why you bring up all these games from October. The Power Rank is supposed to track rising and strong players, not falling weak ones.
TheMania in October: 4-2 (2-0 vs July, 1-1 vs GoRush, 0-1 vs Tester, 1-0 vs Lucifer) TheMania in November (THIS MONTH): 1-3 vs Mind That's it. No proleague, no OSC, nothing. You really think his stellar 1-3 Nov record is deserving of a power rank spot? I say NO for BOTH October and November.
ForGG in October: 3-3 (1-2 vs Nal_rA, 1-0 Magma, 1-0 vs Stork, 0-1 vs Flash) ForGG in November: 0-1 vs Light ONE game in November, mediocre in October, doesn't deserve PR in either month. This suggestion, as many of your others, is ridiculous.
Free deserved to be in PR in October and he was, even though he lost to Savior. Free in November: 4-2, all proleague (W vs Oversky, Eliza, Calm, Bisu; L vs Much, Hero) Sea in November: 4-1 (W vs Anytime, Calm, Best, Skyhigh; L vs. Chalrenge) Which one is better? Remember, Sea advanced from his OSC group.
Kwanro in October: 3-4 (0-3 vs Bisu; 2-0 vs Light; 1-0 vs Sea, Oversky; 0-1 vs Hery, July) Kwanro in November: 1-1 (W vs Canata; L vs Luxury) He wasn't on the PR in either month and this is correct. No OSL, barely any Proleague, good but not great MSL results. The series against Bisu is forgivable, but the games were HORRIBLY played by Kwanro. Regardless, he's 1-1 in November, and falling since October, and you want him on?
Xellos in October: 3-2 (2-1 vs Canata, 1-0 vs Boxer, 0-1 vs Lucifer) Xellos in November: 4-4 (1-3 vs Bisu, 3-1 vs Nal_Ra) October, definitely not. November, well, it would be a decent case if his series win came after his loss, but beating a bad-playing Nal_rA and then losing to Bisu does not get you on. Your argument of Sea "only focusing on proleague" is dumb here because Xellos only focuses on the MSL and not even that, ONLY TvP.
Flash in October: 3-2 (W vs Forgg, Rock, Savior; L vs Frozean, Pusan) Flash in November: 4-5 (1-2 vs Stork; 1-1 vs Savior; 0-1 vs Hiya, FBH; 1-0 vs Frozean, oov) This is your best argument. The Savior loss came when he was already qualified for OSL ro8, and he's playing proleague as well as OSL. That said, he's 4-5 and eliminated from OSL with a 1-2 proleague record. Falling, not rising.
Btw you say "Xellos and others" as if there are more people than those you mentioned? Who else?
What else could be the reason when Flash has managed to qualify for an OSL twice, while Sea has done absolutely nothing? How long before you stop finding excuses for Sea and actually look at the results?
I think it's pretty clear that for just about everyone in November, Sea is stronger than those that you mentioned. If YOU stopped and actually thought about your stupid, unsupported suggestions, half of which could've easily been disproved with 30 seconds on TLPD (lol ForGG?? Mania???), maybe you'd see why Sea is actually a smart choice.
PS, Anytime got through Survivor 2-1 but he's 1-4 in Proleague this Month.
Much is 5-0 in Proleague but no OSC, he's the only one you can argue about. He's on the PR and one spot lower, completely justified to be there or #9 and Sea #10.
The ranking is not a measurement of potential. It's a measurement of who is playing the best in a months worth of time.
This is ironic, because the players you suggested are: TheMania (1-3), Free (4-2, falling), Forgg (0-1), Kwanro (1-1), Xellos (4-4, one mu, no PL, falling), Flash (4-5, eliminated OSL, 1-2 PL, falling).
Sea is 4-1, with his loss coming very early in the month. He has the best rec, his opponents were on par with the rest, and he's got momentum.
On December 02 2007 20:49 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Steve is a massive Sea fanboy Apparently winning an OSC group and doing mediocre in proleague is enough for number 9.
On December 02 2007 20:43 Piste wrote: There are so many players who should be in the rank instead noobish Sea[Shield]!
So I ask again, where are these "so many players" that should be ranked ahead of Sea? Your argument falls apart. How can you be so sure of yourself when 3 of your suggested players for the PR have a combined record of 2-5 in November?
On December 03 2007 20:33 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Sea > Jaedong @ Monty Hall
Add another game to the list of games people will ignore because they don't like Sea
I don't think Z's losing on Monty Hall is much. I liked Sea's cute build. Hidden expo, then the attacking timings he utilized were really gosu.
But how about GGplay for PR? Free? GGplay has had harder opponants and a pretty strong showing this month. Same for Free.
I really thought GGPlay was better this month. He dropped a ZvZ and an impossible Zerg map. Big deal. His other games he has shown his typical rape game. Ultralisks, Kill YOU.
On December 03 2007 20:37 Hot_Bid wrote: You should remember what Power Rank is, it's a measure of how good a player is irregardless of results. ... This is NOVEMBER power rank, so I don't know why you bring up all these games from October.
I am gonna ask this as a legitimate question since I think I got the power rank all wrong if what you've stated is true. If Ma Jae Yoon wins an MSL title, then plays one single pro-league game the next month and loses he is actually considered worse than someone who plays some qualifier and goes 3-0? Only that single month counts? And even if the MSL winner would go 2-0 in proleague vs decent opponents and not show off any extremely cool micro/macro/timing or whatever that could actually be a reason not to put him on the list?
If the writer of this actually can have the "right" to put someone on the list because he "played so good that game" or "his play is just outstanding, if you cant see it youre an idiot" without any results to back it up there is no chance in hell this can be objective.
No matter how high you think of yourself there is no chance you won't somehow think "How can I find a way to put my favorite player on the list?" There just isn't. Also when Fakesteve suddenly starts to think everyone hates Sea it gets even more obvious he feels he need to defend his choice which implies it's probably wrong. I don't hate him. I just don't see the greatness the fans seems to see. And if you leave out the abstract greatness and decent proleage stats, his OSC group kill is not enough to be top10 in my opinion.
Please don't be condescending to me with the "Happy now?" Especially when you are completely wrong, and half your suggestions show you have no clue what's going on.
On December 02 2007 22:07 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Almost every single player that qualified for the MSL RO 16 and OSL RO 16. They all were argueably more successful than Sea. Keep in mind what the Power Rank really is. I think Sea is an extremely good player. I also understand that many times he gets stuck in tough groups. However, power rank is about results, and Sea is never able to show them. Sure he preforms well in proleague, but only because that's ALL he ever has to focus on, because despite his skills he never seems to qualify for individual leagues. The ranking is not a measurement of potential. It's a measurement of who is playing the best in a months worth of time.
You should remember what Power Rank is, it's a measure of how good a player is irregardless of results.
Even so, the pure results side of the argument destroys your players anyway, here's why:
Because you asked for names: TheMania, ForGG, Free, Kwanro(the guy that beat Sea in MSL..ya remember that?), Xellos and others. Flash too.
This is NOVEMBER power rank, so I don't know why you bring up all these games from October. The Power Rank is supposed to track rising and strong players, not falling weak ones.
TheMania in October: 4-2 (2-0 vs July, 1-1 vs GoRush, 0-1 vs Tester, 1-0 vs Lucifer) TheMania in November (THIS MONTH): 1-3 vs Mind That's it. No proleague, no OSC, nothing. You really think his stellar 1-3 Nov record is deserving of a power rank spot? I say NO for BOTH October and November.
ForGG in October: 3-3 (1-2 vs Nal_rA, 1-0 Magma, 1-0 vs Stork, 0-1 vs Flash) ForGG in November: 0-1 vs Light ONE game in November, mediocre in October, doesn't deserve PR in either month. This suggestion, as many of your others, is ridiculous.
Free deserved to be in PR in October and he was, even though he lost to Savior. Free in November: 4-2, all proleague (W vs Oversky, Eliza, Calm, Bisu; L vs Much, Hero) Sea in November: 4-1 (W vs Anytime, Calm, Best, Skyhigh; L vs. Chalrenge) Which one is better? Remember, Sea advanced from his OSC group.
Kwanro in October: 3-4 (0-3 vs Bisu; 2-0 vs Light; 1-0 vs Sea, Oversky; 0-1 vs Hery, July) Kwanro in November: 1-1 (W vs Canata; L vs Luxury) He wasn't on the PR in either month and this is correct. No OSL, barely any Proleague, good but not great MSL results. The series against Bisu is forgivable, but the games were HORRIBLY played by Kwanro. Regardless, he's 1-1 in November, and falling since October, and you want him on?
Xellos in October: 3-2 (2-1 vs Canata, 1-0 vs Boxer, 0-1 vs Lucifer) Xellos in November: 4-4 (1-3 vs Bisu, 3-1 vs Nal_Ra) October, definitely not. November, well, it would be a decent case if his series win came after his loss, but beating a bad-playing Nal_rA and then losing to Bisu does not get you on. Your argument of Sea "only focusing on proleague" is dumb here because Xellos only focuses on the MSL and not even that, ONLY TvP.
Flash in October: 3-2 (W vs Forgg, Rock, Savior; L vs Frozean, Pusan) Flash in November: 4-5 (1-2 vs Stork; 1-1 vs Savior; 0-1 vs Hiya, FBH; 1-0 vs Frozean, oov) This is your best argument. The Savior loss came when he was already qualified for OSL ro8, and he's playing proleague as well as OSL. That said, he's 4-5 and eliminated from OSL with a 1-2 proleague record. Falling, not rising.
Btw you say "Xellos and others" as if there are more people than those you mentioned? Who else?
What else could be the reason when Flash has managed to qualify for an OSL twice, while Sea has done absolutely nothing? How long before you stop finding excuses for Sea and actually look at the results?
I think it's pretty clear that for just about everyone in November, Sea is stronger than those that you mentioned. If YOU stopped and actually thought about your stupid, unsupported suggestions, half of which could've easily been disproved with 30 seconds on TLPD (lol ForGG?? Mania???), maybe you'd see why Sea is actually a smart choice.
PS, Anytime got through Survivor 2-1 but he's 1-4 in Proleague this Month.
Much is 5-0 in Proleague but no OSC, he's the only one you can argue about. He's on the PR and one spot lower, completely justified to be there or #9 and Sea #10.
The ranking is not a measurement of potential. It's a measurement of who is playing the best in a months worth of time.
This is ironic, because the players you suggested are: TheMania (1-3), Free (4-2, falling), Forgg (0-1), Kwanro (1-1), Xellos (4-4, one mu, no PL, falling), Flash (4-5, eliminated OSL, 1-2 PL, falling).
Sea is 4-1, with his loss coming very early in the month. He has the best rec, his opponents were on par with the rest, and he's got momentum.
On December 02 2007 20:49 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Steve is a massive Sea fanboy Apparently winning an OSC group and doing mediocre in proleague is enough for number 9.
On December 02 2007 20:43 Piste wrote: There are so many players who should be in the rank instead noobish Sea[Shield]!
So I ask again, where are these "so many players" that should be ranked ahead of Sea? Your argument falls apart. How can you be so sure of yourself when 3 of your suggested players for the PR have a combined record of 2-5 in November?
Based on this logic I think there is no way that Sea can be ranked ahead of Much. With a crap OSC group win being so powerful evidence to making PR, I might as well throw Hogil's name out there. He beat Pusan and FBH to win his MSL survivor group, they're both good players. He also advanced from more difficult OSC group. GGPlay is in the ODT already and he advanced to MSL survivor while doing well in proleague. How about Iris he had a winning proleague record.
So, I'd like you to explain to me why he deserves to be on over GGPlay, Much, Iris, or even Hogil. He had no reason being ahead of Anytime last month and he has no reason to be ahead of Much. GGPlay is doing just as well in proleague and he is also in the ODT.
Also, why do you guys hate on Flash saying he only beats mediocre opponents and then loses to good ones. Isn't this exactly what Sea has done except Flash has actually done something in a Starleague? If Sea lost to Stork in the OSL ro8 2-1 would you guys be saying Sea just ran into Stork and still have him high up on the power rank? I hate how you guys bash Flash for winning games, but then make every excuse in the world when Sea loses.
I actually appreciate the power rank and your guy's opinions, I'm just not getting why Sea is getting a free pass based on potential. I like this months ranking and I think you can make a good arguement for Sea being on the top 10.
Flash isn't on the power rank because Flash isn't good
Results are not the most important thing. I watch every pro game and I base my judgements on who is playing the best as well as who is getting results.
Hogil is playing nobodies in the minor league, this is the first time we've seen him do ANYTHING and its way the fuck too early to just throw him on the rank. All the players on the Power Rank have either proven that they are top players or have done something incredible. Sea has proven he is a top terran over and over, and he is destroying everyone he plays right now. Mind is new, but his MSL run was hard and can't be ignored.
Mind is playing better than Sea is. Everyone above Sea on the rank is playing better than he is, or is performing acceptably well against much harder competition (Light and UpMagic for example). Much is playing well, but his wins aren't as convincing.
Sea is absolutely not getting a free pass based on potential, that's not what Power Rank is.
Sea is on Power Rank because he is playing better than everyone below him. Look past results, all right? Watch a fucking game once in a while. If you follow ProGaming anywhere near the level that I do, then you probably wouldn't disagree with Sea's placement. If you don't watch nearly every game that happens, I really don't feel like justifying things that would be obvious if you paid a little more attention.
Specifically though (and this is the last time I'll address this):
GGPlay isn't showing anywhere near the form that he showed when he was on the Power Rank. He got utterly and completely destroyed in OSL. He has a decent record in ProLeague, but he's 1-3 in his last four games, and has played questionably in all four. Games towards the end of the month obviously get more consideration for Power Rank, because as I've stated countless times, its about who is playing well right now. GGPlay is not playing too well right now, and he's certainly not in the top ten of 'whos playing well right now'.
Much is lower because there's a something that must be considered when giving order to the top ten: sustained strong play does in fact give you a little more leeway. Much has had a good month against decent opponents, and he's having his best ProLeague season yet. The reason he's below Sea this month is because while this is Much's best month in quite a while, his performance doesn't look any better than Sea's, and Sea is already ranked. Much isn't playing any better than Sea is, and of all the players who didn't succeed in OSL/MSL, Much and Sea are by far playing the strongest. Much isn't playing better than Sea, he's playing as good as Sea. That earns him a spot on the Power Rank without question, but there's no reason to put him above a player he's performing equal to just because he's been shitty for six months prior. Much's OSC group wasn't hard, come on. Raid isn't good, and Luxury's ZvP isn't stellar.
Iris was explained in the 'close but no cigar' section. Iris's month hasn't been great. He was 5-5 in November. Playing horribly against an out-of-shape July and losing a TvT to Hwasin (that he would have been a clear favourite in three months ago) should be reason enough. Iris' play has dropped off as of late, and though its impossible to tell if it will last, it means Iris isn't one of the ten strongest players right now.
Hogil.... come on. The guy has less than 20 games in his career. His OSC group included stellar players such as Jaehoon and Yooi, I'd expect the top 30 to decimate those two, nevermind the strongest ten. He had strong games against Pusan and Firebathero, but two games doesn't make a guy Power Rank material. The fact that you think he's worth mentioning above ANYONE on the rank this month makes me shake my head. Hell, I really like Hogil, but I'm not going to give a guy Power Rank time just because he had a couple of good games a few days before the rank came out, and ESPECIALLY not when those are the only notable games in his very short career.
Why on earth would anyone assume I don't consider these things before the rank goes up? Every player that has been mentioned so far has been considered and passed on, just like last month.
It's not like I'm picking my ten favourite players over here. A lot of thought and analyzation goes into the Power Rank. If a player isn't on it, there's a damn good reason.
i just wanna see sea actually DO something in the individual leagues. he always gets to this stage, and gets knocked off before entering the brackets. how long have ppl been saying he is the next best thing? he preforms really well where there is no pressure, but once its turned up, u have him losing to kwanro, reach in the past, july and others... a true champ will overcome the obstacles no matter what, look at mind. but meh, nothing really wrong with this rank. props to mind
On December 03 2007 20:37 Hot_Bid wrote: You should remember what Power Rank is, it's a measure of how good a player is regardless of results. ... This is NOVEMBER power rank, so I don't know why you bring up all these games from October.
I am gonna ask this as a legitimate question since I think I got the power rank all wrong if what you've stated is true. If Ma Jae Yoon wins an MSL title, then plays one single pro-league game the next month and loses he is actually considered worse than someone who plays some qualifier and goes 3-0? Only that single month counts? And even if the MSL winner would go 2-0 in proleague vs decent opponents and not show off any extremely cool micro/macro/timing or whatever that could actually be a reason not to put him on the list?
If the writer of this actually can have the "right" to put someone on the list because he "played so good that game" or "his play is just outstanding, if you cant see it youre an idiot" without any results to back it up there is no chance in hell this can be objective.
No matter how high you think of yourself there is no chance you won't somehow think "How can I find a way to put my favorite player on the list?" There just isn't. Also when Fakesteve suddenly starts to think everyone hates Sea it gets even more obvious he feels he need to defend his choice which implies it's probably wrong. I don't hate him. I just don't see the greatness the fans seems to see. And if you leave out the abstract greatness and decent proleage stats, his OSC group kill is not enough to be top10 in my opinion.
If you notice, I paid a lot of attention to whether players had momentum. Whether they were "rising" or "falling" and in the aberrant case of the MSL winner ONLY playing one game the next month (which is a hypothetical that will almost never happen), then we can look at momentum and if someone played so well that they can move past him. Probably not though.
It's month by month, but in the weird situation you put up that will almost never happen, yes you would take into consideration the MSL win from the previous month. For the guys I listed though, I don't think you can justify putting Mania or Kwanro on for their performances from two months ago when they are clearly doing nothing now. Same with people that are "falling."
On December 04 2007 08:00 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Sea is on Power Rank because he is playing better than everyone below him. Look past results, all right? Watch a fucking game once in a while. If you follow ProGaming anywhere near the level that I do, then you probably wouldn't disagree with Sea's placement. If you don't watch nearly every game that happens, I really don't feel like justifying things that would be obvious if you paid a little more attention.
I watch a shitload of games and I have watched more Sea games after reading the powerrank. To me he is still just an above average Terran with a potential to be great like many others. He beats good players once in a while in BO1's, because he never plays in any leagues, because he isn't good enough to ever get a chance. It's just as easy as that.
And wth is this "level" of watching the scene? Wow you sound like the SK-forum MYM.moon fanboys. "IF YOU CANT SEE HIS GREATNESS YOU PROBABLY CANT WATCH GAMES AS GOOD AS I CAN!"
You are a big fan of Sea and the only player on the list that according to you doesn't need to prove himself with results is Sea. You seriously don't see how biased that is? The only thing he had before was an awesome proleague record because it was the only thing he could practise for. Now when that's failing it's because he practises for individual leages. Just how many excuses can you make before realizing he's not on the list because you can see something we others can't - but because you're a fan.
We can go around and around in circles, buddy. I've already played the 'name players you think should replace Sea' game, and I'm fucking sick of catching shit for him being on the rank because I like him.
If you disagree with his presence, you don't know a damned thing. Hate to break it to you.
On December 04 2007 08:00 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Sea is on Power Rank because he is playing better than everyone below him. Look past results, all right? Watch a fucking game once in a while. If you follow ProGaming anywhere near the level that I do, then you probably wouldn't disagree with Sea's placement. If you don't watch nearly every game that happens, I really don't feel like justifying things that would be obvious if you paid a little more attention.
I watch a shitload of games and I have watched more Sea games after reading the powerrank. To me he is still just an above average Terran with a potential to be great like many others. He beats good players once in a while in BO1's, because he never plays in any leagues, because he isn't good enough to ever get a chance. It's just as easy as that.
And wth is this "level" of watching the scene? Wow you sound like the SK-forum MYM.moon fanboys. "IF YOU CANT SEE HIS GREATNESS YOU PROBABLY CANT WATCH GAMES AS GOOD AS I CAN!"
You are a big fan of Sea and the only player on the list that according to you doesn't need to prove himself with results is Sea. You seriously don't see how biased that is? The only thing he had before was an awesome proleague record because it was the only thing he could practise for. Now when that's failing it's because he practises for individual leages. Just how many excuses can you make before realizing he's not on the list because you can see something we others can't - but because you're a fan.
I don't know what you're watching but there aren't any players, other than Much (who's #10 and arguable to be swapped) that deserve the spot more. I don't know what you mean by "when his proleague record is failing" because it's clearly NOT failing.
It's amazing you can accuse someone of bias when not presenting any viable alternatives.
You: "Sea is so overrated!!! Why is he there?? Steve is biased!!" Me: "Name some players who you think should be there instead of Sea."
*Silence*
Or, in some cases like theForeverwar, you name a lot of players, they get disproved (and some suggestions are so laughable and ridiculous it shows that you have NO CLUE what's going on) and then you still say BUT STEVE IS BIASED!!!
Until someone presents a good alternative, Steve is 100% accurate with his placement of Sea. You can argue between Sea and Much, but that's about it.
On December 04 2007 20:30 SuperJongMan wrote: Well, I caught most of the month cept towards the end/thanksgiving. I remember GGplay had nice games.
He rose in Kespa too.
Since flaming out of EVER with losses to Bisu and Shudder, GGPlay has made a recovery, with some nice proleague wins and a win over Up (though this shouldn't really count because Up already won the group and GGPlay was eliminated, so it was kind of a throwaway game). He has a win vs Casy (which was very, very close) and a win over Daezang which are "meh" wins. His two quality wins are Hwasin and Sangho. His losses are Darkelf and Light, both of which came toward the end of the month. He's got less momentum than Sea, who is on a big winning streak at the end of the month. Sea's quality wins are Anytime and Calm (and most recently Jaedong, but that was a day or two after Steve put up the PR).
It's close, but I don't think you can put GGPlay over Much or Sea.
I think Steve erred by not putting GGPlay in the "Close but no cigar" section, he definitely deserves to be there (in the "Close" section) over some of the people listed.
Bottom line is, I think that Much should be #9, Sea gets #10 by a hair over GGPlay because of the momentum difference.
Everyone else is not a good argument.
Steve has his reasons for Sea #9 and Much #10, maybe a little of it is bias, but generally they are legitimate reasons. The people freaking out over Sea even being on the rank fail to see that Sea should be #10 at worst or barely missing the PR. It's not as ridiculous as people make it seem that Steve has him at #9.
On December 04 2007 20:13 Hot_Bid wrote: It's amazing you can accuse someone of bias when not presenting any viable alternatives.
You: "Sea is so overrated!!! Why is he there?? Steve is biased!!" Me: "Name some players who you think should be there instead of Sea."
Lol.
Why do I need give alternatives? Just because I say something is fucked up I need to tell the correct answer? I'm not the author of this power rank. I see people ask why Sea is there and the only thing we get is "He is great. Name someone else who can be there". Everyone thinks their favorite player is great. I always thought of this rank as fakesteves, as a knowledgeable starcraft fan, list and nothing objective. I love reading the ranks and comments, but when you talk like this is some kind of truth with the argument that he is fucking great it's just stupid as hell. I think GGplay is great as well and just need some luck to be at the top again. I watch every GGplay game and I know much about him and I see great potential in him. Who cares.
Hot_Bid wrote: "It's month by month, but in the weird situation you put up that will almost never happen, yes you would take into consideration the MSL win from the previous month. For the guys I listed though, I don't think you can justify putting Mania or Kwanro on for their performances from two months ago when they are clearly doing nothing now. Same with people that are "falling."
Ok I might be stupid but according to this it's impossible to question any single decision in this rank. Results can be ignored if the player looks good in the few BO1 games he plays and it is only for this month but there can be exceptions which aren't clear. An earlier MSL win can be taken into account, but playing close to every proleague match for months with decent results like ForGG can not.
It's just gibberish to me. I really really tried to understand how this rank works, but I'll just leave it since it's impossible with all these hidden rules which are made up everytime someone questions something. This pisses me off more than it should so I'll let you continue think this rank to be the ultimate truth while I consider it bullshit after this "Sea is great" argument. Everyone's happy.
The thing is that, contrary to what most people think, the power rank is entirely not objective. It's the opinion of one person, presented to be debated by the community as a whole. The fact that the power rank is not purely based on results and can be based on how good someone looks in a game guarantees that it can never be 100% correct. The whole point is to generate discussion, not to make a list of exactly who is best. We have kespa for that.
Back when etter was the one who ran the power rank, he never claimed that the list was anything but subjective. If steve didn't claim that "anyone who disagrees with sea's presence doesn't know anything", then we wouldn't have any problems.
On the other hand, it's kind of stupid to suggest sea shouldn't be in there when you can't name people who should take his place. We can't exactly kick him out and put in a blank slot.
On December 04 2007 20:13 Hot_Bid wrote: It's amazing you can accuse someone of bias when not presenting any viable alternatives.
You: "Sea is so overrated!!! Why is he there?? Steve is biased!!" Me: "Name some players who you think should be there instead of Sea."
Lol.
Why do I need give alternatives? Just because I say something is fucked up I need to tell the correct answer? I'm not the author of this power rank. I see people ask why Sea is there and the only thing we get is "He is great. Name someone else who can be there". Everyone thinks their favorite player is great. I always thought of this rank as fakesteves, as a knowledgeable starcraft fan, list and nothing objective. I love reading the ranks and comments, but when you talk like this is some kind of truth with the argument that he is fucking great it's just stupid as hell. I think GGplay is great as well and just need some luck to be at the top again. I watch every GGplay game and I know much about him and I see great potential in him. Who cares.
This should be obvious, but if I have to spell it out for you, fine.
You need alternatives because the PR puts supposedly the top 10 most powerful players on the list. If there aren't players that are better than Sea that aren't on the list, then Sea's position is justified, regardless of how biased FakeSteve is. I already explained why I believed GGPlay isn't on it (but is close) and why Sea or Much should be on it.
I can't believe I have to explain this, but for example, if I'm picking the tallest person out of 5 people, and I think it's this 5'1" guy. Unless you can show me someone who is 5'1" or higher among the 5 people, the 5'1" guy deserves the "tallest person" rank. Sea is among the top 10 best players right now. Unless you can show an alternative and support it, he deserves the sport. It doesn't matter how big a fan Steve is of Sea.
People ask why Sea is there and the only thing we get is 'he is great, name someone else."
This is just a completely incorrect characterization of the situation. Have you even been reading this thread? Don't make stupid statements that are just blatantly wrong. People suggested alternatives, and had those alternatives argued against and disproved. The only viable alternatives to Sea for the #9-10 spots are Much and GGPlay, and I already said why I thought it should be Sea+Much rather than Much+GGPlay. I have yet to see a good argument against Sea, other than "I think Fakesteve is biased!!"
Hot_Bid wrote: "It's month by month, but in the weird situation you put up that will almost never happen, yes you would take into consideration the MSL win from the previous month. For the guys I listed though, I don't think you can justify putting Mania or Kwanro on for their performances from two months ago when they are clearly doing nothing now. Same with people that are "falling."
Ok I might be stupid but according to this it's impossible to question any single decision in this rank. Results can be ignored if the player looks good in the few BO1 games he plays and it is only for this month but there can be exceptions which aren't clear. An earlier MSL win can be taken into account, but playing close to every proleague match for months with decent results like ForGG can not.
It's just gibberish to me. I really really tried to understand how this rank works, but I'll just leave it since it's impossible with all these hidden rules which are made up everytime someone questions something. This pisses me off more than it should so I'll let you continue think this rank to be the ultimate truth while I consider it bullshit after this "Sea is great" argument. Everyone's happy.
Decent results like ForGG? Are you kidding me? You really think that ForGG should be there instead of Sea?
There aren't any "hidden" rules. I'm saying its debatable, and nobody has put up a good argument for why Sea shouldn't be there (as #9-10, assume him and Much are interchangeable). All people have been saying is "FakeSteve is biased!!! Why isn't ABC on the list?" Then someone comes up with support of why its ridiculous to consider ABC, and people like you continue to say "OMG SO BIASED!" when in reality the only support you have is your unfounded opinion of how FakeSteve evaluates things.
Nobody says this rank is the perfect objective standard. Nobody can be perfect in a subjective ranking system. I do, however, agree with a lot of FakeSteve's opinions in this month's rank, with the exception of switching Much and Sea.
Again, you might think it's all bullshit, but judging by the analysis and logic for opinions between you and FakeSteve, his opinion is clearly far more informed and considered and supported than anything you've said. He provided reasons with analyis; there's visual evidence from the games and statistical evidence from the TLPD. You, however, have offered nothing but assumptions about how biased he is.
You can't expect people to take you seriously when you don't read previous posts, you make ridiculous arguments (ForGG??), and then come back with accusations about how "bullshit" the process is, offering no alternatives for the player you think doesn't deserve to be there and no analysis or support for why he shouldn't be there. PR may be biased, but it's way better than the way you go about justifying things.
On December 04 2007 23:36 nobodyhome246 wrote: ... On the other hand, it's kind of stupid to suggest sea shouldn't be in there when you can't name people who should take his place. We can't exactly kick him out and put in a blank slot.
of course steve is going to say that his ranking is 100% FACT and youre all a bunch of dipshits for not agreeing. what the hell else is going to say? its my humble opinion? weak.
On December 04 2007 20:13 Hot_Bid wrote: It's amazing you can accuse someone of bias when not presenting any viable alternatives.
You: "Sea is so overrated!!! Why is he there?? Steve is biased!!" Me: "Name some players who you think should be there instead of Sea."
Lol.
Why do I need give alternatives? Just because I say something is fucked up I need to tell the correct answer?
Normally not always. Normally it is all right just to say, that is bullshit. Like in normal life, it happens all day around us. It is actually OK to find something not good enough, even if you are not able to provide a better solution, for example there are enough complex problem, there is probably nobody has ultimately solution for it. Like it happens to politic issues, or environment problem and so on. Most of people just find this or that not good and try to point out something with his own idea, in most case, people just find it is not good, but does not have alternative for it.
Nevertheless, I think regarding PowerRanking you should be able to provide some alternative if you are not satisfied with someone's placement.
On December 05 2007 02:24 fig_newbie wrote: of course steve is going to say that his ranking is 100% FACT and youre all a bunch of dipshits for not agreeing. what the hell else is going to say? its my humble opinion? weak.
youre in his world now, baby.
hahaha
Honestly I'm just having fun with it. I really enjoy the discussion that spawns from the Power Rank, and I really enjoy explaining the logic behind my choices.
The only thing I don't like is when people don't have anything to say, and instead use this space to tell me how "biased" I am.
It's impossible for the Power Rank to be 100% objective, and that was never its intent. These are the ten strongest players, in order, according to me. I welcome any discussion about the placement of the players, but I don't welcome people that can't back up their thoughts with evidence
On December 05 2007 06:24 neotoss wrote: Nevertheless, I think regarding PowerRanking you should be able to provide some alternative if you are not satisfied with someone's placement.
Hmm good post, but this last thing I just wonder why? Steve has taken the responsibility to make a credible power rank and I have not. I question his decision as a reader (or voter if it was about politics) who maybe speaks his mind too much, but still... just a reader. I have no obligation to do anything and the only reason Hot_Bid wants me to come up with alternatives is because it's so fucking easy to beat down a player who is not in the top-5-non-debatable-part of the list instead of giving straight answers to my questions.
To Hot_Bid:
Hot_Bid I would appreciate if you could focus less on trying to make me look like an idiot and more on proving me wrong or giving answers to the questions I ask. It's a discussion about opinion and there's no need to be an ass.
I do not know if someone deserves the spot more than Sea. And if there is I do not know who. I do not make top 10 lists on my free time and I don't know enough about statistics to make a good power rank. Now with that set aside let me explain my point:
Steve has taken the responsibility to make a power rank and I have not. He is supposed to defend his decisions and he does a great job at it because either he proves them wrong OR they get tired of arguing. I'm not tired yet (I'm sorry) and I don't feel I've been proven wrong and apparentely not Hot_Bid either since you gave up on defending Sea and instead tries to make me make a decision YOU can question instead. But again, I'm not doing this, it's not my job, I don't know enough and the question where the visual and statistical evidence you talk about is still is not answered.
Steve, I can't come up with something, but that's not the reason I call you biased. The reason I say you are biased is that YOU can't come up with something.
And as a final note. If you require evidence from everyone questioning your decision while using the "he looked great that game" argument you set the standard for evidence very low (and that's a happy smiley not an arrogant one)
On December 05 2007 06:24 neotoss wrote: Nevertheless, I think regarding PowerRanking you should be able to provide some alternative if you are not satisfied with someone's placement.
Hmm good post, but this last thing I just wonder why? Steve has taken the responsibility to make a credible power rank and I have not. I question his decision as a reader (or voter if it was about politics) who maybe speaks his mind too much, but still... just a reader. I have no obligation to do anything and the only reason Hot_Bid wants me to come up with alternatives is because it's so fucking easy to beat down a player who is not in the top-5-non-debatable-part of the list instead of giving straight answers to my questions.
To Hot_Bid:
Hot_Bid I would appreciate if you could focus less on trying to make me look like an idiot and more on proving me wrong or giving answers to the questions I ask. It's a discussion about opinion and there's no need to be an ass.
I do not know if someone deserves the spot more than Sea. And if there is I do not know who. I do not make top 10 lists on my free time and I don't know enough about statistics to make a good power rank. Now with that set aside let me explain my point:
Steve has taken the responsibility to make a power rank and I have not. He is supposed to defend his decisions and he does a great job at it because either he proves them wrong OR they get tired of arguing. I'm not tired yet (I'm sorry) and I don't feel I've been proven wrong and apparentely not Hot_Bid either since you gave up on defending Sea and instead tries to make me make a decision YOU can question instead. But again, I'm not doing this, it's not my job, I don't know enough and the question where the visual and statistical evidence you talk about is still is not answered.
Steve, I can't come up with something, but that's not the reason I call you biased. The reason I say you are biased is that YOU can't come up with something.
And as a final note. If you require evidence from everyone questioning your decision while using the "he looked great that game" argument you set the standard for evidence very low (and that's a happy smiley not an arrogant one)
Hot_Bid and I have gone through like ten players that were suggested and provided concrete evidence of their less-than-great play. How exactly does coming up with concrete evidence as to why those people don't have Sea's spot, which validates Sea's spot, equate to being unable to come up with something?
Sea's play has been great lately, better than everyone but the eight players above him. I have backed up this thought with Hot_Bid's help, and if you still can't accept it I have no idea what to tell you.
I honestly don't understand what you're talking about. I HAVE come up with something. Many things. You're just saying I haven't like the posts Hot_Bid and I made don't exist? You're saying that the justification that has been given for Sea's positioning hasn't been given, despite several lengthy posts that explicitly state his good play and the lesser play of any other reasonable candidate? I don't get it.
And no, I don't 'require' evidence, but I'd like people who think there are more deserving candidates to say more than 'well this is what I think and you only disagree because you're biased'.
On top of that, Sea isn't on the rank for lack of better candidates, Sea is on the rank because he is playing fucking good.
While the responsibility lies on me to create a sensible and accurate Power Rank, it is in fact up to you to provide reasoning behind your disagreements if you choose to voice them so vehemently.
This circular argument where I give reason behind Sea's placement and you say I'm only thinking that way because I'm biased is ignorant and gets us nowhere.
On December 05 2007 06:24 neotoss wrote: Nevertheless, I think regarding PowerRanking you should be able to provide some alternative if you are not satisfied with someone's placement.
Hmm good post, but this last thing I just wonder why? Steve has taken the responsibility to make a credible power rank and I have not. I question his decision as a reader (or voter if it was about politics) who maybe speaks his mind too much, but still... just a reader. I have no obligation to do anything and the only reason Hot_Bid wants me to come up with alternatives is because it's so fucking easy to beat down a player who is not in the top-5-non-debatable-part of the list instead of giving straight answers to my questions.
To Hot_Bid:
Hot_Bid I would appreciate if you could focus less on trying to make me look like an idiot and more on proving me wrong or giving answers to the questions I ask. It's a discussion about opinion and there's no need to be an ass.
I do not know if someone deserves the spot more than Sea. And if there is I do not know who. I do not make top 10 lists on my free time and I don't know enough about statistics to make a good power rank. Now with that set aside let me explain my point:
Steve has taken the responsibility to make a power rank and I have not. He is supposed to defend his decisions and he does a great job at it because either he proves them wrong OR they get tired of arguing. I'm not tired yet (I'm sorry) and I don't feel I've been proven wrong and apparentely not Hot_Bid either since you gave up on defending Sea and instead tries to make me make a decision YOU can question instead. But again, I'm not doing this, it's not my job, I don't know enough and the question where the visual and statistical evidence you talk about is still is not answered.
Steve, I can't come up with something, but that's not the reason I call you biased. The reason I say you are biased is that YOU can't come up with something.
And as a final note. If you require evidence from everyone questioning your decision while using the "he looked great that game" argument you set the standard for evidence very low (and that's a happy smiley not an arrogant one)
I'm not a big fan of jumping into other people's arguments but there seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding on your part.
First, you've taken it upon yourself to question Steves rankings. Good, one of the points of the PR is to stimulate interactions between members over the choices that the PR creator (that would be steve) has offered. Keep in mind that ALTHOUGH IT IS STEVE's OPINION and far from being completely objective with legitimate statistical tests backing it up, it is based on his own observations, which is a LOT. That in itself should give credence to his opinions.
The problem is this: youve openly criticized him and called his OPINIONS biased. No shit? It probably is; its his PowerRank after all, and unfortunately by saying that youre only stating the obvious (which, amazingly, many people STILL dont understand about the PR). But then again, hes also backed up his words with in depth analysis of WHY he's chosen who he wants in, in this case Sea.
Hot_Bid asking you to name someone more deserving of a ranking than Sea is valid for the sake of your argument with him. Sure its Steves job. But at the same time you haven't contributed at ALL to the discussion, except for the very loose insult of calling his OPINIONS biased. Consider it before you type out a post and calling bullshit. People here read what you write and criticize harshly if you cant back your opinion up. Steve's done it. Maybe you should too.
and to say GGPlay has potential is to say boxer has potential to be a progamer, or soemthing like that, GGplay has already porven hes good and won an OSL, then called out bisu, we already know he's good, and he's hit the top of the scene. The point you must make is that right now he's hot, and he's dominating, which he isn't. He's good but not top 10, much and sea just kind of dominate proleague atm, making them good candidates. GGplay is good, but i think much being on that 10 streak tear and sea being up there aswel (I don't follow Sea really) All i know about Sea is that he's really solid in all match ups and just got tooled by gorush in the MSL last season.
You know, I never actually looked at Sea's TLPD page until just now when I clicked on MoNKeYSpanKeR's link, but jesus christ, 65% in all matchups? That's fucking disgusting.
I think Savior's big mistake in game 2 was being overly aggressive.
He definitely had an advantage after taking out Bisu's rear nat, but instead of securing his eco, supply and taking the map, he decided to go for the kill with the hydras Bisu's main. He then had no eco, no units, no supply and Bisu stomped him.
Third game was just pure art by Bisu. Savior didn't play bad and Bisu was just really strong.
What I'm wondering, is if Mind can be a strong player after his MSL win and not fall into the shadows, so to speak. Silver comes to mind, although he is not a totally bad player.
On December 06 2007 13:39 SayaSP wrote: What I'm wondering, is if Mind can be a strong player after his MSL win and not fall into the shadows, so to speak. Silver comes to mind, although he is not a totally bad player.
I really think Silver is the weakest player to ever stand on the podium.
Welcome to TL. You'll notice to your right is text input box with the letters "TLPD". This is your gateway to the wonderful professional broodwar database program cleverly named Team Liquid Progaming database If you type in the letters "Nada" into that box and press enter you can not only find out how has done recently, but detailed statistics and matches from his entire career. As well as the vods to go with the games and much more. Give it a try. This applies to pretty much aything else you could possibly want to know about about bw progaming data in general.
Sea is pretty much 65% in EVERY match up. consistent stats like that are very good.
Damn, Sea has taken over Iris's crown of having the best TvT, that makes me sad. I always liked that Iris had that title. Iris even had it before the TLPD came out which allowed everyone to see that statistically he had it as well.
Sea is 5-0 in his last 5 TvT and Iris is 1-4. -_-
Statistics don't mean everything obviously. I'd love to see a top form Iris play a top form Sea. I just checked and they've only played one game against each other and that was almost two years ago (12/26/05); Sea won.
Ever since Iris lost to GGPlay though he hasn't looked so great. He's only 11-11 since he lost the finals. So now might not be the best time for them to play, but I'd love to see that match in the future sometime.
And that was a little tribute to Iris since he fell off the PR.
Shifting away from "waaahhhh I'm not happy for xyz reason" and shifting towards "hmmm who is doing what and how will that effect Power Rank/ Kespa this month"
I'm surprised Luxury isn't up there considering his recent record.
Savior needs to drop below Jaedong. Jaedong's domination of UpMagic was just impressive. I think UpMagic's confidence is a bit shaken since their OSL set.
OSL this weekend will determine #1 (Bisu v Stork) Bisu has looked somewhat mortal after his loss to mind. I feel like Free embarrassed him.
Sea belongs top 10. Granted he has no OSL/MSL but he is 8 for 10 recently and a proleague monster.
On December 13 2007 03:59 Diggity wrote: You do a great job Steve keep it up.
Shifting away from "waaahhhh I'm not happy for xyz reason" and shifting towards "hmmm who is doing what and how will that effect Power Rank/ Kespa this month"
I'm surprised Luxury isn't up there considering his recent record.
Savior needs to drop below Jaedong. Jaedong's domination of UpMagic was just impressive. I think UpMagic's confidence is a bit shaken since their OSL set.
OSL this weekend will determine #1 (Bisu v Stork) Bisu has looked somewhat mortal after his loss to mind. I feel like Free embarrassed him.
Sea belongs top 10. Granted he has no OSL/MSL but he is 8 for 10 recently and a proleague monster.
I think Jaedong will be # 1 if he wins the OSL final legitimately, as that's the only reason he isn't there already is because of his questionable ZvP (the final being played against protoss of course)
Luxury, if he keeps up his play so far as of recent, should definitely be up there.
Mind has "only" gone 3-1 since his MSL title, we'll see how he does in the next few weeks.
What about the OSC winner? IIRC the people in contention right now are Bisu/Stork/Up, Much, Sea, and Yarnc. Yarnc was pretty impressive last night but hasn't been too great in proleague, while Much and Sea are still playing well.
edit: I think the only way for Up to stay on that list is for him to win the OSC
Is it me or does yarnc seems really streaky. I see him win 6 games decisively which makes me believe he can pulls a R8 in MSL or OSL and then he drops the next 6 games in a fashion that makes me wonder if he had someone else playing for him in the first 6.
On December 13 2007 03:59 Diggity wrote: You do a great job Steve keep it up.
Shifting away from "waaahhhh I'm not happy for xyz reason" and shifting towards "hmmm who is doing what and how will that effect Power Rank/ Kespa this month"
I'm surprised Luxury isn't up there considering his recent record.
Savior needs to drop below Jaedong. Jaedong's domination of UpMagic was just impressive. I think UpMagic's confidence is a bit shaken since their OSL set.
OSL this weekend will determine #1 (Bisu v Stork) Bisu has looked somewhat mortal after his loss to mind. I feel like Free embarrassed him.
Sea belongs top 10. Granted he has no OSL/MSL but he is 8 for 10 recently and a proleague monster.
I think Jaedong will be # 1 if he wins the OSL final legitimately, as that's the only reason he isn't there already is because of his questionable ZvP (the final being played against protoss of course)
Luxury, if he keeps up his play so far as of recent, should definitely be up there.
Mind has "only" gone 3-1 since his MSL title, we'll see how he does in the next few weeks.
What about the OSC winner? IIRC the people in contention right now are Bisu/Stork/Up, Much, Sea, and Yarnc. Yarnc was pretty impressive last night but hasn't been too great in proleague, while Much and Sea are still playing well.
edit: I think the only way for Up to stay on that list is for him to win the OSC
uhhhh
upmagic, stork, and bisu aren't in OSC. OSC is the tournament to determine the fourth seed in OSL. either stork or bisu will recieve a seed for being in the final, and then the other will play upmagic for third place and the third seed. the loser of that game goes to ODT, as do the players knocked out of OSC.
On December 13 2007 03:59 Diggity wrote: You do a great job Steve keep it up.
Shifting away from "waaahhhh I'm not happy for xyz reason" and shifting towards "hmmm who is doing what and how will that effect Power Rank/ Kespa this month"
I'm surprised Luxury isn't up there considering his recent record.
Savior needs to drop below Jaedong. Jaedong's domination of UpMagic was just impressive. I think UpMagic's confidence is a bit shaken since their OSL set.
OSL this weekend will determine #1 (Bisu v Stork) Bisu has looked somewhat mortal after his loss to mind. I feel like Free embarrassed him.
Sea belongs top 10. Granted he has no OSL/MSL but he is 8 for 10 recently and a proleague monster.
I think Jaedong will be # 1 if he wins the OSL final legitimately, as that's the only reason he isn't there already is because of his questionable ZvP (the final being played against protoss of course)
Luxury, if he keeps up his play so far as of recent, should definitely be up there.
Mind has "only" gone 3-1 since his MSL title, we'll see how he does in the next few weeks.
What about the OSC winner? IIRC the people in contention right now are Bisu/Stork/Up, Much, Sea, and Yarnc. Yarnc was pretty impressive last night but hasn't been too great in proleague, while Much and Sea are still playing well.
edit: I think the only way for Up to stay on that list is for him to win the OSC
uhhhh
upmagic, stork, and bisu aren't in OSC. OSC is the tournament to determine the fourth seed in OSL. either stork or bisu will recieve a seed for being in the final, and then the other will play upmagic for third place and the third seed. the loser of that game goes to ODT, as do the players knocked out of OSC.
that's exactly what I meant...
edit: am I the only one who finds the OSC to be kinda pointless? I mean, a seed's great and all, but if somebody goes 2-0, 2-0, 2-0, 2-3 in the OSC then 1-2 in the ODT, whereas other people go 2-1 in the OSC then 2-1 in the ODT and then qualify for the OSL, OGN isn't really getting the best players into the OSL
what is the chance of sea actually making it to the group brackets in the osl though?? thats my question... if he falls against like every other individual league, the only expectation i would have is he would be in the close but no cigar section.
Stork winning OSL will make him a way more legitimate candidate for 1'st than Jaedong winning the OSL. In fact Jaedong will not get 1'st even if he wins the OSL because you can't really put Jaedong above Bisu.
Yes Stork did loose in Survivor and will miss the next MSL but that is a small price to pay for an absolute raping of Bisu and pulling his team from 10'th to 5'th place. Khan's is 7-1 in their last 8 before being 2-6. They are red hot and have a very good shot at the playoffs. Without Stork's 8 consecutive proleague wins (in all matchups) that would not be possible.
In OSL, both had easy opponents in their groups, and ro8. UpMagic was like a gift for Jaedong since he is pretty much the worst TvZer out of decent Terrans. Bisu was the second worst matchup for Stork (Savior worst) and Stork demonstrated perfect PvP. Jaedong could not prove much vs. UpMagic. It was a pretty disappointing semi.
If Stork wins, then based on PL especially and OSL obviously, he will take #1 over Bisu and JD (who he would have beat) and a slumped Savior.
If Jaedong wins, then Bisu will probably stay at 1. I just don't believe Jaedong is playing as well as Stork especially due to his recent hiccup in PL.
I don't care who takes Bisu's #1 spot away from him but if Bisu stays first that is really dumb. #1 players win Starleagues. This is supposed to be whoever is the hottest the past month but it never ever has been. If it was Mind should be #2 this month at the least.
Bisu's play against Stork is going to be as important as ever. He looked vulnerable, and the results speak for that. Aside from drawing a bad starting postion on Fantasy, he got shut out 3:0 by Stork. Saying Bisu was the favourite over Stork in PvP is a fool's ploy, but Bisu losing 3:0 was unexpected. :/
I just hope he annihilates Upmagic 3:0 for the third place spot in this OSL, and starts performing in the PL. That said, Stork's position on this ranking is going to come down to his play in the finals, I guess.
losing in survivor is hardly cause to look down on stork considering how dominant he's been everywhere else
its very obvious that stork put a fucking lot of preparation into his series against bisu, which takes away from his pvt and pvz practice time
i'm not making any promises about the power rank because in the end there are many factors to consider, i just want to put aside assumptions that stork's survivor group is a massive hinderance on his power rank placement
Beating Stork for Jaedong would mean more for Jaedong than Stork beating Jaedong for Stork. Regardless. I'm pretty sure December's best is OSL's best. Especially if the score isn't 3-2.
On December 15 2007 11:02 TheTyranid wrote: Stork winning OSL will make him a way more legitimate candidate for 1'st than Jaedong winning the OSL. In fact Jaedong will not get 1'st even if he wins the OSL because you can't really put Jaedong above Bisu.
That's a terrible argument. You can't put Stork above Savior either then. Jaedong's worst match is Bisu. His second worst? ... Probably Stork or Savior.
On December 15 2007 12:59 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: losing in survivor is hardly cause to look down on stork considering how dominant he's been everywhere else
its very obvious that stork put a fucking lot of preparation into his series against bisu, which takes away from his pvt and pvz practice time
i'm not making any promises about the power rank because in the end there are many factors to consider, i just want to put aside assumptions that stork's survivor group is a massive hinderance on his power rank placement
2 or 3 days of practice! Firm believer in "overpracticing" apparently. >.>
On December 15 2007 11:42 boghat wrote: I don't care who takes Bisu's #1 spot away from him but if Bisu stays first that is really dumb. #1 players win Starleagues. This is supposed to be whoever is the hottest the past month but it never ever has been. If it was Mind should be #2 this month at the least.
Eh, power rank is about who is the best more than it is who is hot. Being hot tends to indicate that someone has stepped up their game, but the difference between the top ten and bottom ten is those in the top ten are pretty much always going to be going deep into MSL/OSL and you know they're among the best of the best.
If Stork wins this OSL, I wouldn't be surprised if he's at number 1, but just because Bisu has lost a few series doesn't mean he isn't capable of stomping everyone next season on his way to a 3rd MSL title and his first OSL. Losing to Stork in a PvP is nothing to be ashamed of (although getting 3-0ed always sucks) and Mind's play in proleague has shown that he wasn't a complete fluke (at worst I expect him to be like Hwasin and almost always make it to the semis, but unlike Hwasin he's consistent).
On December 15 2007 11:02 TheTyranid wrote: Stork winning OSL will make him a way more legitimate candidate for 1'st than Jaedong winning the OSL. In fact Jaedong will not get 1'st even if he wins the OSL because you can't really put Jaedong above Bisu.
That's a terrible argument. You can't put Stork above Savior either then. Jaedong's worst match is Bisu. His second worst? ... Probably Stork or Savior.
True, but if Jaedong gets thrashed in the finals (3-0) Bisu will probably get second place still. If the finals is going to be close and both players bring their a-game, they will take the top two spots with the winner taking first.
The thing with Jaedong is that he had a very easy road to the finals. Neither Light nor UpMagic are serious opponents. So if a player cruises through easy opponents but then gets raped by a serious opponent, he did not do that well. Jaedong's play will determine his place on PR.
Stork one sided victory. 1.Stork 2.Bisu (If Bisu looses to Up, he could drop to 3'rd in this case. Guaranteed if Up rapes him.) 3.Jaedong (cruising through easy opponents, loosing to strong opponent)
Close (3-2) victory. Winner 1'st. looser 2'nd
Jaedong one sided victory 1.Jaedong (elevating weakest matchup RIGHT when it matters most) 2.Stork 3.Bisu
4. Savior gets fourth because he has been consistently getting knocked out from SL's and is getting pushed aside by the newer dominating players. Unfortunately only his ZvP and 2v2 R have been giving him success lately
5. Mind has been doing well in proleague. He is helping his team rise from the bottom 4 to 5'th place. This is exactly what he needs to secure the momentum from his MSL tear.
6. Up played so bad against JD. However, if he does well vs. Bisu he might get 6'th. He also made it to MSL.
7. Sea. He is doing really well in proleague. He is looking good in OSC and if he doesn't Midas and gets 4'th place he will get the 6'th spot over Up. He is also about to make MSL
8-9? Hwasin will drop several spots. He got knocked out of an SL again! and his STX team is slumping badly.
8-9? Much. Is another OSC hopeful and is the CJ ace.
10. Yarnc. He has been playing hot lately. The OSC finals will be the thing that decides the bottom places in the PR among Sea, Much, Yarnc, and Up(maybe).
GGPlay is doing well in Proleague but he lost to 3-10 TvZ Shine and didn't make MSL?!?!? He is out of PR.
edit: Oops. GGPlay was not on the PR anyway. Light is the one who will be booted. He is inconsistent and gets PR spots when he is on a streak ( much like Yarnc). Now that his (OSL) streak has ended, he has no place on the PR. His PL record is not too hot either.
On December 15 2007 12:59 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: losing in survivor is hardly cause to look down on stork considering how dominant he's been everywhere else
its very obvious that stork put a fucking lot of preparation into his series against bisu, which takes away from his pvt and pvz practice time
i'm not making any promises about the power rank because in the end there are many factors to consider, i just want to put aside assumptions that stork's survivor group is a massive hinderance on his power rank placement
2 or 3 days of practice! Firm believer in "overpracticing" apparently. >.>
On December 15 2007 11:42 boghat wrote: I don't care who takes Bisu's #1 spot away from him but if Bisu stays first that is really dumb. #1 players win Starleagues. This is supposed to be whoever is the hottest the past month but it never ever has been. If it was Mind should be #2 this month at the least.
Eh, power rank is about who is the best more than it is who is hot. Being hot tends to indicate that someone has stepped up their game, but the difference between the top ten and bottom ten is those in the top ten are pretty much always going to be going deep into MSL/OSL and you know they're among the best of the best.
I agree with you somewhat but not really. If you want to decide who is "best" then look at the KeSPA ratings. In a game that has as many highly competitive players as this one 'best' has limited significance. I'm a huge Savior fan but Mind beat him (and Bisu) in a Bo5 when it counted. If results were the main determining factor then Mind should be higher right now. Performance plays a big part though and is why I actually do like the positioning of this month's Power Rank. There comes a point where 'who is best' becomes too subjective though.
The argument, "but the difference between the top ten and bottom ten is those in the top ten are pretty much always going to be going deep into MSL/OSL and you know they're among the best of the best" is just dumb. Take a look at the older Power Ranks.
I guess I don't really have much of a disagreement. I think this month's Power Rank is fine and if Steve is really watching every, or most, games then I'm sure next months will be good too. I look forward to it.
Stork completely thrashed Bisu, I feel bad. I have no clue who's gonna win Stork vs. Jaedong. I'm not sure who will be #1 now but it won't be Bisu after his performance vs. Stork.
On December 17 2007 16:25 bumatlarge wrote: Stork completely thrashed Bisu, I feel bad. I have no clue who's gonna win Stork vs. Jaedong. I'm not sure who will be #1 now but it won't be Bisu after his performance vs. Stork.
If it's not Bisu, it's gotta be Stork or maybe Jaedong, right?
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this but any plans to do a 'Ultimate Power Rank' of the top 10 best players of 2007? Or even the top 20 if you're really ambitious; just a thought. I can see the heated arguments now that it would cause.
On December 16 2007 02:18 zer0das wrote: ... and Mind's play in proleague has shown that he wasn't a complete fluke (at worst I expect him to be like Hwasin and almost always make it to the semis, but unlike Hwasin he's consistent).
When has Hwasin ever made it to the semifinals? Once, that's it.
There is a lot yet to consider before the month is over in terms of where to rank people. The OSL finals and third place match, The OSC playoffs, the final few Survivor groups, and some of the last weeks of proleague leading into those playoffs that start in January.
On December 18 2007 14:01 boghat wrote: I don't know if anyone has mentioned this but any plans to do a 'Ultimate Power Rank' of the top 10 best players of 2007? Or even the top 20 if you're really ambitious; just a thought. I can see the heated arguments now that it would cause.
On December 18 2007 14:01 boghat wrote: I don't know if anyone has mentioned this but any plans to do a 'Ultimate Power Rank' of the top 10 best players of 2007? Or even the top 20 if you're really ambitious; just a thought. I can see the heated arguments now that it would cause.
Maybe a joint Etter and Steve collaboration?
interesting but I think it would be really hard to come up with... I imagine it's hard enough just coming up with the monthly rankings...
a year one would be something like:
1) Bisu 2) Stork 3) Savior 4) Hwasin 5) GGPlay 6) Iris 7) rA 8) FBH 9) free 10) Much
?
It would be really, really open to debate. After Hwasin I have no confidence in the last 6 slots. Still, I think it would be really cool to have one
On December 18 2007 14:01 boghat wrote: I don't know if anyone has mentioned this but any plans to do a 'Ultimate Power Rank' of the top 10 best players of 2007? Or even the top 20 if you're really ambitious; just a thought. I can see the heated arguments now that it would cause.
Maybe a joint Etter and Steve collaboration?
interesting but I think it would be really hard to come up with... I imagine it's hard enough just coming up with the monthly rankings...
a year one would be something like:
1) Bisu 2) Stork 3) Savior 4) Hwasin 5) GGPlay 6) Iris 7) rA 8) FBH 9) free 10) Much
?
It would be really, really open to debate. After Hwasin I have no confidence in the last 6 slots. Still, I think it would be really cool to have one
On December 18 2007 14:01 boghat wrote: I don't know if anyone has mentioned this but any plans to do a 'Ultimate Power Rank' of the top 10 best players of 2007? Or even the top 20 if you're really ambitious; just a thought. I can see the heated arguments now that it would cause.
Maybe a joint Etter and Steve collaboration?
interesting but I think it would be really hard to come up with... I imagine it's hard enough just coming up with the monthly rankings...
a year one would be something like:
1) Bisu 2) Stork 3) Savior 4) Hwasin 5) GGPlay 6) Iris 7) rA 8) FBH 9) free 10) Much
?
It would be really, really open to debate. After Hwasin I have no confidence in the last 6 slots. Still, I think it would be really cool to have one
Ok, I see Stork getting #1 if he win the OSL, but Jaedong getting second if he wins it, but maybe he'll get 1st simply because he's improved so much. Bisu managed to survive against Up, probably could have take the series 3:1 if not for Persona, so he's doing well enough. Though it's a shame we don't get to see Sea vs Bisu.
Sea is pretty much 65% in EVERY match up. consistent stats like that are very good.
Damn, Sea has taken over Iris's crown of having the best TvT, that makes me sad. I always liked that Iris had that title. Iris even had it before the TLPD came out which allowed everyone to see that statistically he had it as well.
Sea is 5-0 in his last 5 TvT and Iris is 1-4. -_-
Statistics don't mean everything obviously. I'd love to see a top form Iris play a top form Sea. I just checked and they've only played one game against each other and that was almost two years ago (12/26/05); Sea won.
Ever since Iris lost to GGPlay though he hasn't looked so great. He's only 11-11 since he lost the finals. So now might not be the best time for them to play, but I'd love to see that match in the future sometime.
And that was a little tribute to Iris since he fell off the PR.
OMG, my wish has come true, on December 26th Iris and Sea are playing each other in the Proleague! The only problem is they are the 4th match, and looking at the lineups I'd say CJ has a really good chance to 3-0 MBC.
Hopefully we will get to see this game. And if we do I really hope both players bring their best TvT game out there because if they do it could be an amazing match. Iris has a more established TvT than Sea and has long been considered the best, although he has been faltering a little lately. Sea has claimed one of the best new TvTs around, along with possibly Firebathero. Firebathero has shown really good TvT too but he is lame and Sea is cool so I rather see an Iris vs. Sea match anyway.
On December 16 2007 02:18 zer0das wrote: ... and Mind's play in proleague has shown that he wasn't a complete fluke (at worst I expect him to be like Hwasin and almost always make it to the semis, but unlike Hwasin he's consistent).
When has Hwasin ever made it to the semifinals? Once, that's it.
There is a lot yet to consider before the month is over in terms of where to rank people. The OSL finals and third place match, The OSC playoffs, the final few Survivor groups, and some of the last weeks of proleague leading into those playoffs that start in January.
On December 23 2007 13:06 boghat wrote: You're a Bisu fanboy? (Nothing wrong with that, just seems obvious that's what the reason is.)
True, but who would you say is the favorite in the upcoming starleagues? I think Bisu has the best chance. However, I will have no problems if Jaedong is ranked number 1, he deserves it.
First of all, I have to say Bisu should still stay #1, Stork isn't even in MSL next season... even if you place him above Bisu, it will die fast, Bisu going to rip both leagues as a seed and imo dominate all over again, Stork won't. And Bisu > Jaedong :-) sAviOr > Stork, Bisu > sAviOr etc etc :-) But more important is the following fact: Sea is a freaking monster. Look at his recent records. Sea for #1 :-P
all i know is bisu doesnt deserve number 1 on power rank. hell he got denied both leagues and has shown only exemplary p v z. both stork and mind showed his weakness in his other matchups. but i am very curious how ths will turn out. its all jumbled up now. if stork had won the osl, it would have been so much simpler to rank everyone.
On December 24 2007 13:16 koryano321 wrote: all i know is bisu doesnt deserve number 1 on power rank. hell he got denied both leagues and has shown only exemplary p v z. both stork and mind showed his weakness in his other matchups. but i am very curious how ths will turn out. its all jumbled up now. if stork had won the osl, it would have been so much simpler to rank everyone.
Denied in both leagues... well he was there in both, semi-finals in one, finals in the other, 3rd time in a row. So Jaedong is finaly showing what he's got, that doesn't make him #1 just yet. And Stork... well he might have beat Bisu, but he's no Bisu :-) Bisu is still the strongest and I'd bet on him against Stork anyday just the same, obviously against Mind and Jaedong as well. There's no other player that yet deserves to be ranked #1 above him imo. Next season that might change.
I don't understand how bisu can still be #1. This is a monthly power rank, and bisu has looked very mortal as of late. He was 3-0'd by stork, and his wins over Up in 5 games was not very convincing. He hasn't done anything aside from that, except losing to HiyA, who's a pretty mediocre terran player. Bisu hasn't been playing well as many people who would not be even #5, like Anytime, Flash, and the zerg twins, I just don't see how he can be #1 after this month
edit: Jaedong, on the other hand, has looked unstoppable and is very deserving of the #1 spot. He only really lost to Sea this month (his other loss coming in his OSL championship), and as we all know Sea is a proleague monster. If Jaedong can beat free tonight, I think he's proved that his ZvT and ZvZ is unstoppable and his ZvP is good enough to beat top-tier players
On December 25 2007 20:12 Felagund wrote: When Bisu and Jaedong meet, Jaedong might already be a ZvP monster.
Um... Jaedong's worst matchup is zvp.
Beating Stork in the finals is some achievement right? Not really, Stork's worst match up is zvp. These last finals weren't the prettiest games from either side.
1v1 Record: All: 78-42 (65.00%) [ Games ] vT: 33-16 (67.35%) [ Games ] vZ: 25-9 (73.53%) [ Games ] vP: 20-17 (54.05%) [ Games ]
On December 25 2007 20:12 Felagund wrote: When Bisu and Jaedong meet, Jaedong might already be a ZvP monster.
Um... Jaedong's worst matchup is zvp.
Beating Stork in the finals is some achievement right? Not really, Stork's worst match up is zvp. These last finals weren't the prettiest games from either side.
1v1 Record: All: 78-42 (65.00%) [ Games ] vT: 33-16 (67.35%) [ Games ] vZ: 25-9 (73.53%) [ Games ] vP: 20-17 (54.05%) [ Games ]
His worst matchup at the moment is ZvP, what's to say he doesn't perform a massive overhaul and become a ZvP rapist as well? His games vs Stork showed that he can play the matchup (Yes, Stork's PvZ is his worst matchup, but that doesn't mean it's horrendous, it's just not up to his PvP and PvT)
On December 25 2007 20:12 Felagund wrote: When Bisu and Jaedong meet, Jaedong might already be a ZvP monster.
Um... Jaedong's worst matchup is zvp.
Beating Stork in the finals is some achievement right? Not really, Stork's worst match up is zvp. These last finals weren't the prettiest games from either side.
1v1 Record: All: 78-42 (65.00%) [ Games ] vT: 33-16 (67.35%) [ Games ] vZ: 25-9 (73.53%) [ Games ] vP: 20-17 (54.05%) [ Games ]
His worst matchup at the moment is ZvP, what's to say he doesn't perform a massive overhaul and become a ZvP rapist as well? His games vs Stork showed that he can play the matchup (Yes, Stork's PvZ is his worst matchup, but that doesn't mean it's horrendous, it's just not up to his PvP and PvT)
even if stork's PvZ is terrible, it's still top-notch. The only players who you can safely say have better PvZ are Anytime and Bisu if I'm not forgetting anybody. So if Jaedong can take down players like free and Stork, and since Anytime's on his team, the only person he really needs to worry about is Bisu
Please don't forget Jaedongs win over Free yesterday. Free is what the 2'nd best PvZ in progaming? So maybe Jaedong has in fact shaped his up ZvP and his OSL win was not in large part to Stork's PvZ. Jaedong was also 0-3 against Free before this match... TLPD says 2-5 but those 2 wins were in 06.
On December 25 2007 12:54 ambit!ous1 wrote: January 2008 PR prediction;
Jaedong finally showing he is one of the greatest. I have a feeling it may be a 2 horse race in 2008 between Jaedong and Sea. It'd be nice to see Nada come back to his best and destroy them both. I think Stork is going to fade pretty fast.
As for Bisu and Savior, I think it's over for them for the next year or so. Too much distraction as you get older you see. Bisu is still pretty young though, but I'm sure there's a special girl or something knocking on his door.
On December 26 2007 07:58 TheTyranid wrote: Please don't forget Jaedongs win over Free yesterday. Free is what the 2'nd best PvZ in progaming? So maybe Jaedong has in fact shaped his up ZvP and his OSL win was not in large part to Stork's PvZ. Jaedong was also 0-3 against Free before this match... TLPD says 2-5 but those 2 wins were in 06.
Where are all the "FakeSteve is biased for Sea!!!!" whiners now??
If you watched Sea's games in November, it was clear how awesome he was, and he proved it even more in December.
For all the people harping on Jaedong, his ZvP looked good enough vs. Stork (especially in games 3 and 4) that it erases a bit of his past horrible ZvP history. He looked Savior-like in ZvP.
If Stork had won the OSL, I don't think people would say he doesn't deserve #1 because he still would lose to Savior (just 1 player). And the Savior vs. Stork and Jaedong vs. Bisu comparisons are not even valid, because Jaedong has never actually played Bisu, whereas Stork has already lost a million times to Savior.
If Bisu and Jaedong were to play a Bo5 tomorrow, even though Bisu would be the favorite, Jaedong's win in the OSL finals (and the great play he showed) is enough to at least put a little doubt in your mind as to who would win. So until they play, let's not count it against Jaedong
On December 26 2007 17:16 Hot_Bid wrote:If Bisu and Jaedong were to play a Bo5 tomorrow, even though Bisu would be the favorite, Jaedong's win in the OSL finals (and the great play he showed) is enough to at least put a little doubt in your mind as to who would win. So until they play, let's not count it against Jaedong
On December 26 2007 16:14 koryano321 wrote: why should sea be higher than hwasin? we all know hwasin will advance farther than sea in any league that they are both in.
That's not a fact. Besides, that is not a factor in deciding who should be higher. Sea is 12-5 this month with many good games. Hwasin is 2-1 and just doesn't look as strong.
On December 26 2007 17:16 Hot_Bid wrote:If Bisu and Jaedong were to play a Bo5 tomorrow, even though Bisu would be the favorite, Jaedong's win in the OSL finals (and the great play he showed) is enough to at least put a little doubt in your mind as to who would win. So until they play, let's not count it against Jaedong
No, not really. :0
Your opinion, but as the Mind series vs. everyone showed, anything can happen.
I can't resist predicting the Top 5 for January's PR...
1- Jaedong: Winning the OSL is a big deal, no matter how favorable the draw, and Jaedong won the OSL with visible ease. No one took more than 1 game off him in any of his OSL series. Jaedong is a monster 2/3rds of the time, and his ZvP is improving (see his Man-handling of Stork in the OSL finals). This should be a no-brainer. Whether he keeps the number 1 slot for more than a month is another matter...
2- Bisu: It took Savior a month after his MSL loss to slip from the #1 slot on PR, and the same thing has happened to Bisu. Losing 3-1 in the MSL finals is something you can potentially bounce back from, but losing 3-0 in the OSL semi-finals is not the way to bounce back. Still, Bisu is a formidable player, a PvZ monster, and simply getting to the finals and semi-finals of the two leagues will keep him from slipping any further.
3- Stork: Like Jaedong, Stork is a monster 2/3rds of the time. Unlike Jaedong, his worst matchup isn't showing signs of improvement. Still, his PL resume combined with an OSL finals appearance and complete dismantling of Bisu merit strong consideration for top3. If he'd gotten further in the MSL, I'd place him above Bisu.
4- Mind: This was a tough one. You'd think the MSL champion would be easy to place in a powerrank. He did take out Bisu, Savior, and Iloveoov, afterall. But Mind hasn't shown anything spectacular in the 5 PL games he's played since his MSL performance. He's only 3-2 since then and his wins were versus very weak progamers (Mingu 42%, SangHo 40%, Clon 41%). He still has some worth-proving to do if he wants to crack the top 3, and if he doesn't prove himself soon, he's likely to slip fast.
5- Savior: Savior's still a player I doubt anyone, with the exception of Bisu, wants to face. Choosing between Mind and Savior for 4th place was hard for me. On the one hand, Savior is still a very very strong player who performs well in both leagues. He can rape Stork and most other P whenever he likes, he's one of precious few zergs that can boast a winning record vs the ZvZ monster that is Jaedong, and he still shows strong games vs every terran he meets. On the other hand, no matter how well Savior plays these days, he tends to run into, and get eliminated by, Bisu (easily), or a surging terran (Mind, FBH, Iris) in a tough series. Unless he hits a real slump I don't see him dropping below 5th in the PR any time soon, and he was a coin flip away from being 4th this month, but it'll be difficult for him to crack the top 3 again until he can figure out how to beat or avoid Bisu in a league.
On December 26 2007 16:14 koryano321 wrote: why should sea be higher than hwasin? we all know hwasin will advance farther than sea in any league that they are both in.
That's not a fact. Besides, that is not a factor in deciding who should be higher. Sea is 12-5 this month with many good games. Hwasin is 2-1 and just doesn't look as strong.
The rank doesn't go by record, it's more about who's playing the best. I'm not saying Hwasin is playing better, but stats and places don't mean everything.
I was a Sea hater last month, but I can't say anything now. He deserves to move up, how far is up to how Fakesteve thinks he's doing compared to the other starleague contenders. Somewhere from 6-8 seems about right. I don't think Steve can sneak him above Mind just yet.
I think Bisu can still be 1 based on the fact that I still think hes the better player and playing better (as a Bisu fanboy this can be heavily debated, I guess this me saying Jaedong might be playing better, but liking Bisu too much to admit it). I still think hes the best and most consistent player and the favorite to win both starleagues.
My preliminary power 10
1. Bisu - fanboyism here 2. Jaedong - contender in both leagues proved himself in OSL, he appears to have learned ZvP, but can he learn ZvB, i doubt it 3. Stork - sucks hes not in MSL might hurt him in later months 4. Savior - him and Stork both huge roadblocks and benchmarks in starleagues 5. Mind - unproven decent but not great in proleague wildcard 6. Much - won OSC going through a hard road that included Luxury in the prelims, Yarnc, and Sea 7. Hwasin - light work load this month 8. Sea - him and Hwasin could easily be change, I think much should be ranked higher than Sea though based on him having a harder OSC and of course beating him, really close series though. 9. Flash - check out his tlpd for this month, its rather crazy, NONE of the wins were cheeses. Qualified for MSL 10. Yellow[Arnc] - I think its the series against perfect terran that convinced me, he had a chance against Much, but programmer hacks saved Much's cannon.
My preliminary list just turned into the whole list, I'll do another one in a few days.
Cliff Notes version: Bisu for # 1, Flash should make the rank.
On December 26 2007 16:14 koryano321 wrote: why should sea be higher than hwasin? we all know hwasin will advance farther than sea in any league that they are both in.
That's not a fact. Besides, that is not a factor in deciding who should be higher. Sea is 12-5 this month with many good games. Hwasin is 2-1 and just doesn't look as strong.
The rank doesn't go by record, it's more about who's playing the best. I'm not saying Hwasin is playing better, but stats and places don't mean everything.
I was a Sea hater last month, but I can't say anything now. He deserves to move up, how far is up to how Fakesteve thinks he's doing compared to the other starleague contenders. Somewhere from 6-8 seems about right. I don't think Steve can sneak him above Mind just yet.
I think Bisu can still be 1 based on the fact that I still think hes the better player and playing better (as a Bisu fanboy this can be heavily debated, I guess this me saying Jaedong might be playing better, but liking Bisu too much to admit it). I still think hes the best and most consistent player and the favorite to win both starleagues.
My preliminary power 10
1. Bisu - fanboyism here 2. Jaedong - contender in both leagues proved himself in OSL, he appears to have learned ZvP, but can he learn ZvB, i doubt it 3. Stork - sucks hes not in MSL might hurt him in later months 4. Savior - him and Stork both huge roadblocks and benchmarks in starleagues 5. Mind - unproven decent but not great in proleague wildcard 6. Much - won OSC going through a hard road that included Luxury in the prelims, Yarnc, and Sea 7. Hwasin - light work load this month 8. Sea - him and Hwasin could easily be change, I think much should be ranked higher than Sea though based on him having a harder OSC and of course beating him, really close series though. 9. Flash - check out his tlpd for this month, its rather crazy, NONE of the wins were cheeses. Qualified for MSL 10. Yellow[Arnc] - I think its the series against perfect terran that convinced me, he had a chance against Much, but programmer hacks saved Much's cannon.
My preliminary list just turned into the whole list, I'll do another one in a few days.
Cliff Notes version: Bisu for # 1, Flash should make the rank.
Yeah I KNOW it is not about numbers. Sea has just been looking stronger than Hwasin
On December 28 2007 08:03 Harem wrote: How is Stork a roadblock for Savior? o_0
I put they're both huge roadblocks and measuring sticks for their opponents. Even though Stork hasn't won a starleague and Savior hasn't won one recently. They're big roadblocks to other opponents in starleagues.
A 2nd place and 3rd place finish is good, but Stork managed exactly the same last season - 2nd in MSL and 3rd in OSL and no one thought he deserved the #1 slot. Also, last season, Stork was arguably the MVP of proleague and led his team to a victory in the finals, while Bisu's proleague results normally fall in between 'awful' to 'non-existent'.
I'm not trying to compare the 2 players, but based purely on results, Bisu's season has been comparable, even slightly worse, than Stork's last season. Meanwhile, Jaedong has been on fire and I don't think people can discount his ZvP anymore. Even if it was only a proleague match, I don't think Jaedong of a few months ago would have beaten Free, while just recently he has, who is probably the second best PvZ player at the moment.
On December 28 2007 19:42 Sindri wrote: A 2nd place and 3rd place finish is good, but Stork managed exactly the same last season - 2nd in MSL and 3rd in OSL and no one thought he deserved the #1 slot. Also, last season, Stork was arguably the MVP of proleague and led his team to a victory in the finals, while Bisu's proleague results normally fall in between 'awful' to 'non-existent'.
I'm not trying to compare the 2 players, but based purely on results, Bisu's season has been comparable, even slightly worse, than Stork's last season. Meanwhile, Jaedong has been on fire and I don't think people can discount his ZvP anymore. Even if it was only a proleague match, I don't think Jaedong of a few months ago would have beaten Free, while just recently he has, who is probably the second best PvZ player at the moment.
Stork deserved the number 1 spot about as much as Bisu actually (I'd say more). Steve doesn't like him though, so he choose to put him at number 2 instead. But it's not like you couldn't make a strong case for both. Both Bisu and Jaedong are canidates this season (in a very simular situation as Bisu/Stork last season). The only thing stopping Stork this time around is his failure to make MSL.
On December 28 2007 19:42 Sindri wrote: A 2nd place and 3rd place finish is good, but Stork managed exactly the same last season - 2nd in MSL and 3rd in OSL and no one thought he deserved the #1 slot. Also, last season, Stork was arguably the MVP of proleague and led his team to a victory in the finals, while Bisu's proleague results normally fall in between 'awful' to 'non-existent'.
I'm not trying to compare the 2 players, but based purely on results, Bisu's season has been comparable, even slightly worse, than Stork's last season. Meanwhile, Jaedong has been on fire and I don't think people can discount his ZvP anymore. Even if it was only a proleague match, I don't think Jaedong of a few months ago would have beaten Free, while just recently he has, who is probably the second best PvZ player at the moment.
Bisu beat Stork straight up when it mattered most, Jaedong hasn't done the same. Bisu has also proven he can win a starleague. The main reasoning Stork didn't get 1 was because he hadn't and hasn't proven that yet.
1) Jaedong - Looking unstoppable, winning the OSL and beating Yarnc and free in PL 2) Stork - Looking very good except for the loss in the OSL 3) Savior - Did you see that game against Hwasin!?!? 4) Bisu - Got 3d in OSL, but looked like crap doing it 5) Much - Looking good, even after his 60th birthday last week (oh yeah, he won the OSC against tough opponents too) 6) Sea - Only person this month to beat Jaedong (stork doesn't count) 7) Mind - Kind of a head-scratcher here, looks like he has a weakness to Z 8) Luxury and Yellow[arnc] - except for getting raped by Lecaf last night, both twins playing strong 9) Anytime - Proleague monstrosity 10) Flash - Calm?!?!?! wtf!?!?!?
CBNC- UpMagiC - Serious slump after getting raped by Jaedong Hwasin - If he couldn't beat Savior after getting a huge advantage... Light - Lost against the two good players he played this month HiyA - Good record, but he looks like crap in his games GGPlay, Iris - I can't believe you didn't get into the OSL OR MSL. RuBy - Impressive wins this month, just not enough to get into PR Xellos - Please continue your good play.
On December 28 2007 19:42 Sindri wrote: A 2nd place and 3rd place finish is good, but Stork managed exactly the same last season - 2nd in MSL and 3rd in OSL and no one thought he deserved the #1 slot. Also, last season, Stork was arguably the MVP of proleague and led his team to a victory in the finals, while Bisu's proleague results normally fall in between 'awful' to 'non-existent'.
I'm not trying to compare the 2 players, but based purely on results, Bisu's season has been comparable, even slightly worse, than Stork's last season. Meanwhile, Jaedong has been on fire and I don't think people can discount his ZvP anymore. Even if it was only a proleague match, I don't think Jaedong of a few months ago would have beaten Free, while just recently he has, who is probably the second best PvZ player at the moment.
Stork deserved the number 1 spot about as much as Bisu actually (I'd say more). Steve doesn't like him though, so he choose to put him at number 2 instead. But it's not like you couldn't make a strong case for both. Both Bisu and Jaedong are canidates this season (in a very simular situation as Bisu/Stork last season). The only thing stopping Stork this time around is his failure to make MSL.
I wasn't writing the Power Rank at that time, and I don't place the players based on whether or not I like them
Someday you'll just have to admit that I genuinely do know ProGaming better than you do echo
How do you know you don't do it subconciously? And in order for you to understand progaming better than me, you need to also understand bw itself better than me. So unless you can show me that, noooo wayyyy However if you win a liquibet season I'll give you some credit. Where are you on the ranks this season?
Ok you're 89th, and yes I realize that I don't even liquibet and therefore shouldn't even be bringing it up. That doesn't seem to be stopping me though
On December 28 2007 08:03 Harem wrote: How is Stork a roadblock for Savior? o_0
I put they're both huge roadblocks and measuring sticks for their opponents. Even though Stork hasn't won a starleague and Savior hasn't won one recently. They're big roadblocks to other opponents in starleagues.
Stork is more of a speed bump (for savior that is).
Why don't we just go with current ELO rankings, like in chess? Hehe. Here's the top 10 as of 30th December 2007, courtesy of the greatness that is TLPD:
On December 31 2007 07:43 aRod wrote: To my dismay MBC has not been using Bisu in any of their games. Everyone loves seeing his PvZ. Does anyone know why he hasn't been playing?
if bisu runs into a strong protoss or terran player he might be in trouble
seriously, he lost to HiyA.
anyway, I was just looking at some records.
Since June, Jaedong has had a whopping 71% winrate (with his worst MU being protoss at 61%). This is higher than anybody else I checked (including bisu, savior, sea, stork, hwasin) and the closest people I could find are Kal (70%) and Anytime (67%) (neither of which have played extensively in an individual league IIRC). Jaedong looks like he's making his strides, let's see how long his reign will last
I think alot of the reason Jaedong's zvp looked so good was because it was Stork he was facing. Jaedong made many good moves, but that is much easier when you are facing a player of less skill. Stork's grand total of 0 storm drops in game 4 made me want to cry. Bisu would rape Jaedong, but pvz is Bisu's only monster matchup. As for rankings within the top 5 or so i have no idea as to individual placements.
Anyways thanks for the time you put into making these and defending them (lol) FakeSteve.
On December 31 2007 12:37 alphafuzard wrote: btw how is kwanro doing? his zvt looked purty, but i havent heard anything bout him recently. (sorry for going of topic)
He played 2 proleague 1v1's and won 1 and lose the other, he also is playing 2v2's with moderate sucess.
On December 30 2007 13:47 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: How do you know you don't do it subconciously? And in order for you to understand progaming better than me, you need to also understand bw itself better than me. So unless you can show me that, noooo wayyyy However if you win a liquibet season I'll give you some credit. Where are you on the ranks this season?
Ok you're 89th, and yes I realize that I don't even liquibet and therefore shouldn't even be bringing it up. That doesn't seem to be stopping me though
i'm pretty much a constant in the top 20 but i missed a few votes and had stork over jaedong to finish OSL
On December 31 2007 12:37 alphafuzard wrote: btw how is kwanro doing? his zvt looked purty, but i havent heard anything bout him recently. (sorry for going of topic)
I think that they're afraid to put him up just yet, because despite his excellent micro he falls behind in macro a bit too much, especially when you just saw him vs Bisu. In modern SC you have to know when to tone down the aggression and macro up, but Kwanro doesn't seem to have that yet. However, regardless he's been getting better, even defeating Sea with his odd muta -> ultralisk build. I wonder if that was one of Savior's own invention, as he's been using it a lot lately.
On December 31 2007 07:43 aRod wrote: To my dismay MBC has not been using Bisu in any of their games. Everyone loves seeing his PvZ. Does anyone know why he hasn't been playing?
if bisu runs into a strong protoss or terran player he might be in trouble
seriously, he lost to HiyA.
he was massively behind due to builds that game and then hiya just played a strong push, wasnt much bisu could do. not a very meaningful game.
On December 30 2007 13:47 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: How do you know you don't do it subconciously? And in order for you to understand progaming better than me, you need to also understand bw itself better than me. So unless you can show me that, noooo wayyyy However if you win a liquibet season I'll give you some credit. Where are you on the ranks this season?
Ok you're 89th, and yes I realize that I don't even liquibet and therefore shouldn't even be bringing it up. That doesn't seem to be stopping me though
i'm pretty much a constant in the top 20 but i missed a few votes and had stork over jaedong to finish OSL
ez jaedong pick, i can't believe you didn't go with your heart fakesteve!!!!!