IN THE FF FORUM -- an article has been written of Draco. To sum up the article which I am too lazy to translate, says the followings: Draco did well on WCG. Draco pulled off few wins over Koreans showing he does have skills to compete even with Koreans. He does show possibilities of competing in Proleague. Basically, a praise about Draco.
However, this is not what interests me. This was very expected article and says nothing new. What DID catch my attention was the responses of the koreans. Thus making me translate some of it. (Not all because I'm a lazy peson just like you)
1st reply: If you want to succeed, come to Korea... 2nd reply: hmm, Draco was amazing~~ 3rd: Draco will be in Proleague. ---: Draco was pretty good. Seems better than the most of Korean protoss users. With a bit more shaping, he should be able to take a win in proleague. ---: Isn't Legend a better player since he earned 4th place? ---: hehehe IMO, Draco played much better... ---: When you watch Draco play, his prescense/force is incredible... when he beated Midas... even though I haven't seen the game between him and oov... ---: Legend got raped by OoV 2:0 while draco only lost 2-1 ---: IMO, draco played better than Legend ---: (stupid post/not related at all) ---: (another lame post replying to the previous post) ---: Draco's so good. OoV almost got 0-2 by him. He's that much amazing. Legend was just lucky with brackets. He only met July once, and didn't even meet any other koreans till the semifinal. ---: Isn't Draco adjusting much faster than Legend? And since Legend couldn't even take a single win off of Koreans, can't you say Draco is a level higher than Legend? I think so, Legend was in SKT1 for almost an year now while Draco only has been in Korea for 3 months. ---: Hope he doesn't fall in to the "path of night"... ;; all the foreigners as of yet can't keep up with Koreans who practice over 10 hours a day... ---: If Draco beats OoV, FF forum will shut down ---: Draco won with proxy gates... -- In game 3, he got destroyed by timing attack ---: kekeke when draco beated oov,,,, it was proxy gate.. keke he won with proxy gate against Midas too,, kekekeke /// and when oov went bio (m & m), he couldn't even block it GG ---: Legend was less popular than Draco before coming to Korea,,, same with skills,,, but now, he has improved a lot coming to korea.. ---: DRACO!!!!!!!! I LOVE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!! I love Draco!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DRACO!!!!!!!!! I LOVE YOU!!!!!!!!!! I LOVE DRACO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (x4) ---: Only Proxy all in rush if you suck...Only Proxy all in rush if you suck...Only Proxy all in rush if you suck...(x1726876324) ---: Stop talking and why dont YOU TRY? ---: Draco played very well.. ---: Stop with the bs, he won one game with proxy gate --; ---: I see reps of Draco losing to amateur terrans time to time. He's not ready to go against progamers yet. ---: How many progamer tosses do you think are capable of pulling a win off of Midas or OoV even WITH proxy gates? Not many.
I'm glad many Koreans are happy for Draco. Keep up the good work Draco! Both foreigners(tl.net) AND Koreans are supporting you You're the new great white hope! Draco Fighting!!!!~
Ugh I wish I knew Korean so I could respond too. The Draco vs Midas game may have started off with a proxy but it didn't even come close to winning the game for Draco. He worked really hard for that and in my eyes he beat Midas straight up. The Oov game was a little cheesier but still you have to give him credit.
I wonder how long I could keep up that kind of pattern. Leg was man enough to stop when he lost interest, so I wonder where Draco will go when he gets tired of it. Then again, maybe he'll find a way to stick with it. I just don't know, and I'm excited to find out where this guy ends up.
Draco did very well, i'm very impressed by how polished he already is after having been in korea for only a short time. That and he's actually good at pvz makes me believe he has the potential to be great both mechanically and strategically which is what a good progamer is.
hey, Midas lost only 400 minerals, Draco spent 400 minerals on those proxy gates/pylon so what? IMO the thing that fucked Midas the most was those dt, he was forced to cancel his CC.
Anyway, gaia is a gay map, its really hard do break a push specially against the iron wall(midas) on that map, and you can't flank him. you have few options..
Dracos mistake was that non-gas exp.. it got midas to the game again, cause draco had to waste units defending that expo.. but after that he was so fuckin smart!
mcmascote, it's not minerals that are important, It's the time it takes to build another one, and the time it COULD have been used to gather resources, which could have been spent on a larger army, which would definately have won him the game.
If you can pull off cheese against Korean Progamer micro, you deserve to win. Think about it: Progamers probably train a really long time against many forms of cheese every day.
On October 23 2006 21:31 zdd wrote: If you can pull off cheese against Korean Progamer micro, you deserve to win. Think about it: Progamers probably train a really long time against many forms of cheese every day.
On October 23 2006 20:40 HonestTea wrote: The great thing about Draco is, he seems to be the most adverse to the "path of night" of all the foreigners ever to grace the Korean progaming scene.
Even Giyom lost interest. But Draco seems to be very, very focused. Good for him.
I'd be focused too when I haven been to the progaming scene for merely 3 months. Give him more time and we will see.
The hard part is when you train so hard but with little returns(such as getting into major leagues) can be discouraging. Best hope to Draco tho. Foreign player playing on stage is always fun to watch.
Considering the guy has been in Korea for 3 short months I'd say he did great.
Proxy gate or not, he's certainly filling the shoes of foreign pros of yesteryear. Give the guy time, and we'll see if we have another crazy foreign toss on our hands.
few days ago, when i watched online broadcasting game btw legend vs iloveoov, the commentator mentioned " the Draco vs Iloveoov's game was incredible, it's gonna CHANGE YOUR LIFE...." . well i don't believe my life will be changed by the game, but his performance was definitely excellent. on the other hand, Legend was little bit lucky on the bracket, that's why he got a better rank. he s also growing Protoss star.
---: How many progamer tosses do you think are capable of pulling a win off of Midas or OoV even WITH proxy gates? Not many.
rofl yea Cobo is world class... those idiots (along with all of you here) really are blindfolded... why lie to yourself?! draco didnt play world class he played semi ok almost losing games where he had great great advantage... (or even losing it)
On October 23 2006 23:12 Kaolla wrote: [removed quote within quote]
rofl yea Cobo is world class... those idiots (along with all of you here) really are blindfolded... why lie to yourself?! draco didnt play world class he played semi ok almost losing games where he had great great advantage... (or even losing it)
no doubt he was playing world class. it's just bit of slack off with great greast advantage. same as the secon game vs iloveoov, when he had like 6-7 carriers, and with 25~30 units advantage. he got slacked off again. IMO. however, Beast (iloveoov) wasn't cobo GG
Uhhh...if the CC gets destroyed, it really sets you back terribly in terms of timing. Doesn't change the fact that Draco played well. He looks ready to make his appearance.
He didn't lose any games against foreigners, did he? Pretty nice losing games only to S-class progamers...
On October 23 2006 23:22 dnaxmen wrote: [removed quote within quote]
no doubt he was playing world class. it's just bit of slack off with great greast advantage. same as the secon game vs iloveoov, when he had like 6-7 carriers, and with 25~30 units advantage. he got slacked off again. IMO. however, Beast (iloveoov) wasn't cobo GG
ehm your post makes no sense ... and it wasnt slacking off... but O_O?
i really really wish satanik could have gone to WCG last year or year before when he trained MASS on PGT... i think he could have given the koreans a run for their money... anyone agree? disagree? i think its a good topic anyone else who didn't go to WCG could have done well too??
draco, lx and testie did a nice job but imo testie got more outplayed in the games vs midas. u can see that draco and lx have been practicing with pro's alot
for the short time i've been into starcraft, i've watched and learnt from the koreans and i consider them to be far beyond everywhere else. but i hope draco does very well, because if foreigners do better vs koreans, there will be more than 1 tourney a year where korean progamers don't play among themselves.
think about it - more wcg's, more english shoutcasts with ur fav progamers, etc
I think Draco will do better than any foreigner since Elky. He really seems to have that Pro-Mindset which normally only Koreans have. Also in that thread about Pro-Team-Recruitments the general opinion was that the coaches will go for mass-gaming high apm players. Now I have watched FPVs ever since the year 2001 and it has been a long time since i was impressed by someones handspeed but when I watched Draco at WCG I definitely was. Really, none of the three Koreans were so fast. Maybe there are still a little more effective but Draco will catch up. So imo he will be able to deal with their multitasking and maybe his foreign influence will make him stand out.
On October 23 2006 21:17 miNi wrote: mcmascote, it's not minerals that are important, It's the time it takes to build another one, and the time it COULD have been used to gather resources, which could have been spent on a larger army, which would definately have won him the game.
obvious... without those proxy gates Midas would have crushed Draco, but I'm trying to say it wasn't that easy, even killing the CC.. look at the replay when midas start his push.. Midas pop: 80/200. draco: 92/200
(yeh, draco macro was poor)
resume: Draco did a god job against a guy 5x better than him.
On October 23 2006 23:12 Kaolla wrote: [removed quote within quote]
rofl yea Cobo is world class... those idiots (along with all of you here) really are blindfolded... why lie to yourself?! draco didnt play world class he played semi ok almost losing games where he had great great advantage... (or even losing it)
So everyone on tlnet but yourself is an idiot? Nice superiority complex. Ever consider that you are just a mindless fanboy and thats why no one agrees with you?
Cobo is not world class but managed to pull off a nice win. He didnt go 5-0 in his group like draco. Neither did midas. The fact that midas almost didnt make it out of his group tells you he was either beatable on that day, or purposely lost. I strongly doubt cobo, as good as he is, would do as good as draco in a bo3 against oov.
I am not sure if you are trolling, or what, but its obvious that most people dont agree with you, and maybe you should try to figure that out.
I kinda agree with Kaolla in a way, I don't think Draco's performance vs midas was particularly impressive at all. Despite getting a big advantage killing the first CC and then stopping the 2nd one with dts, he still almost lost. The win vs oov was not impressive at all either, oov's 9 barracks before supply was a bad choice and he ended up going m&m (maybe he did this in part, because he thought draco made 2 proxy gate zealots, not 1 and then follow with tech). However, the second game vs oov was impressive for the most part, he should've won there, but in the late game he messed up big time and it cost him the game. He did trounce mondragon, although he did get a huge advantage in the early game then too. So I think there were signs of greatness from Draco, mainly the 2nd game vs oov, but his wins were not particularly impressive and I don't think that his wins signify that he's ready to enter the proleague or anything, midas and oov were clearly miles ahead of Draco in skill. However Draco clearly has a shitload of drive and desire, and if he sticks at it, he may reach a high enough level to win in proleague or enter some leagues, he's clearly not at that level yet though imo.
On October 23 2006 23:12 Kaolla wrote: [removed quote within quote]
rofl yea Cobo is world class... those idiots (along with all of you here) really are blindfolded... why lie to yourself?! draco didnt play world class he played semi ok almost losing games where he had great great advantage... (or even losing it)
Well, Cobo is actually pretty good at PvT I think, you should watch his other games - definitely not a bad player.
Anyway, Draco's opening was great, Cobo's opening was great, draco's follow up was.. questionable (attacking midas first push, I think he should have checked it first, expoing to the center expo when he had seen midas' gigantic army and knew he couldn't hold etc).
But what do you expect, he was about to beat a top ranking progamer in an important tournament for the first time - he's allowed to be nervous.
On October 24 2006 00:57 TearsOfTheSun wrote: i really really wish satanik could have gone to WCG last year or year before when he trained MASS on PGT... i think he could have given the koreans a run for their money... anyone agree? disagree? i think its a good topic anyone else who didn't go to WCG could have done well too??
He could have beaten foru I guess : > But I don't give him any chances vs the korean terrans or zergs.
stasis fielded two goliaths blocking midas' ramp which basically won him the game IMO
Well, i watched that replay with my friends, and the reaction was: "OOOH my f*cking god, that was beautiful!" at that moment.
Anyway, Draco has the potential to be one of the bests, but dont forget: he is in Korea for 3 months, not a huge amount of time. He is a great player at the moment, but he isnt as good as the Korean programmers. Just be patient, and im sure, we will have an other Korean-killer foreigner in the progaming!
5-0 with Midas and Mondragon (people didn't even expect Midas to go 5-0 here). 2-2 vs Midas and Oov
Almost 2-0 vs Oov
How many foreigners can do that (proxy or not)?
Draco seems like the kind of guy that will keep practicing hard, I would be surprised if he didn't do some kind of impact, at least win some proleague games. But then again I'm a nobody :p
On October 24 2006 05:09 DarK]N[exuS wrote: of ourse he's not at that level, and as everyone has been saying, the games merely show the potential to reach that level.
Guys, don't be so quick to dismiss the other top foreigners. Draco did well, but its not something unheard of for guys like Testie, lx, etc.
Here's an example. Any of you guys remember why lx was recruited into SKT1? It was during the China Korea face-off in 2005. As such events usually played out, the Korean powerhouse players steamrolled over most opponents. Lx's case, was different. In his mirror match up with Kingdom, the game dragged out into an impressively long, well-played macro war, eventually concluding with a draw as neither player had the means to finish the other off. In the game against the emperor, lx went for a cheesy proxy dt tech disguised by fake goon range upgrade. It slowed down Boxer enough so that by the time he finally had a 2nd expo running, and enough vult/tanks to try for his first push, Lx knock on the doorsteps with ~10 carriers and forced the gg. At the time LX had already established himself as a player with potential for both cheese AND straight up, long macro wars. This was even before he was recruited along with PJ into SKT1. Why he did not cheese against ooV or Midas during this WCG is anyone's guess but it certainly doesn't mean he isn't capable of, or won't be successful if he chose to do so.
On October 24 2006 08:45 roadrunner_sc wrote: Guys, don't be so quick to dismiss the other top foreigners. Draco did well, but its not something unheard of for guys like Testie, lx, etc.
Here's an example. Any of you guys remember why lx was recruited into SKT1? It was during the China Korea face-off in 2005. As such events usually played out, the Korean powerhouse players steamrolled over most opponents. Lx's case, was different. In his mirror match up with Kingdom, the game dragged out into an impressively long, well-played macro war, eventually concluding with a draw as neither player had the means to finish the other off. In the game against the emperor, lx went for a cheesy proxy dt tech disguised by fake goon range upgrade. It slowed down Boxer enough so that by the time he finally had a 2nd expo running, and enough vult/tanks to try for his first push, Lx knock on the doorsteps with ~10 carriers and forced the gg. At the time LX had already established himself as a player with potential for both cheese AND straight up, long macro wars. This was even before he was recruited along with PJ into SKT1. Why he did not cheese against ooV or Midas during this WCG is anyone's guess but it certainly doesn't mean he isn't capable of, or won't be successful if he chose to do so.
Midas and Oov are his teammates and they are probably very familiar with Lx's cheese strategies. Draco doesn't really play with SKT-1 progamers; Draco practices in the OGN Sparkyz house. Midas and Oov don't know how Draco works and Draco exploited that fully by playing very unpredictably.
On October 24 2006 00:57 TearsOfTheSun wrote: i really really wish satanik could have gone to WCG last year or year before when he trained MASS on PGT... i think he could have given the koreans a run for their money... anyone agree? disagree? i think its a good topic anyone else who didn't go to WCG could have done well too??
On October 24 2006 09:01 Mortality wrote: [removed quote within quote]
Midas and Oov are his teammates and they are probably very familiar with Lx's cheese strategies. Draco doesn't really play with SKT-1 progamers; Draco practices in the OGN Sparkyz house. Midas and Oov don't know how Draco works and Draco exploited that fully by playing very unpredictably.
And they're not familiar with Lx's straight-up games?
Edit: And Lx would certainly know a lot more about Midas and oov's build order/scouting patterns. It's certainly just as possible for him to capitalize on this knowledge with a cheese, as it is for his teammates to defend against it.
On October 24 2006 11:21 GeLaar wrote: Yea, the win over Midas was even more impressive, as Draco didn't upgrade interceptor numbers the whole game. Anyone else notice that?
LX's game vs boxer was beautiful. his game vs kingdom was good but the draw was a bit screwed because of the fanboys.
i don't think he expects to win against his team mates. draco had a lot to prove. if LX use cheese and wins and maybe maybe knock out the koreans then it would not give him anything meaningful except the respect of foreign players. if he actually wins, then most people would just say yeah he beat his team mates. if he doesn't, he still gets number 4 which is good enough to shut up the chinese fans. and the koreans are on a mission here... lol.
Great post Fcuk, thx for translation. I really enjoyed reading this thread. I agree that Draco is a very promising player but I think people( mostly foreigners) expect too much of him. Don't get me wrong, I wish him the best and I hope he succeeds in Korean Proleagues, but he definetly needs more time.
On October 24 2006 14:01 haduken wrote: not really that outrageous considering taiwan has so few gamers. he could always attend the chinese qualifies..
In this time of age and that draco is already competing so well with koreans I think he will make the biggest foreign presence thats ever been in korea(other than grrr or elky). It seems that every other big foreigner that went had a weak mu but draco is really strong in all his mu's. He also has a korean like determination.
On October 24 2006 09:05 roadrunner_sc wrote: [removed quote within quote]
And they're not familiar with Lx's straight-up games?
Edit: And Lx would certainly know a lot more about Midas and oov's build order/scouting patterns. It's certainly just as possible for him to capitalize on this knowledge with a cheese, as it is for his teammates to defend against it.
Of course they are familiar with his straight up games, but cheese is much more dependent on the element of surprise.
On October 24 2006 14:01 haduken wrote: not really that outrageous considering taiwan has so few gamers. he could always attend the chinese qualifies..
On October 24 2006 17:05 penitent exile wrote: [removed quote within quote]
...........................
oh come on, he has a point. it's a little bit over the top to automatically assume just because SEn is from taiwan there needs to automatically be a prelim for him. People just miss out due to lack of sponsors in their country, lack of interest for a particular game etc. it's unfortunate, but that's just the way it is.
I don't think it is an option for SEn to go to China's wcg though. I'm pretty sure China wouldn't exactly accomodate for Taiwan, even for something as trivial as Broodwar T_T. I'd be pretty fucking pissed if I were F91, PJ or whoever if I found out my organization let SEn into the Chinese prelim.
I think draco is getting more apreciation from the community lately, because draco is kind of followin the path that grrr.... did, and people are anxious to see another dominant foreign player like that.
But its surprising how well known testie is in the korean community.
What!?!? Why are people talking about Draco's game play during the WCG? all he did was use some lame ass Cheese Whiz and got a win against Oov. i don't even think Draco can even match Oov skills if the game were to take longer leaps of minutes. don't get me wrong Draco is very good and all, but he couldn't last with Oov if the game were to last longer than a cheese whiz time. i think the media looked at it the wrong way.
Stop ragging on Mumyung. His ZvZ and ZvP strength would dismantle foreigners he went up against. Even his ZvT is enough for any foreign Terran and it's supposedly "shitty" (yet his ZvT win percentage is about the same as Anytime's PvT win percentage and Anytime is "amazing" at PvT and it's not like Mumyung's record is against nothing but slouches either...go figure).
So he did beat oov once in a bo3. I think if it was a bo5 or 7, oov would just straight up rape. Draco is damn good but comparing him to Oov, thats a quick judgement. But maybe in time he'll be up there, who knows.
On October 24 2006 17:05 penitent exile wrote: [removed quote within quote]
...........................
oh come on, he has a point. it's a little bit over the top to automatically assume just because SEn is from taiwan there needs to automatically be a prelim for him. People just miss out due to lack of sponsors in their country, lack of interest for a particular game etc. it's unfortunate, but that's just the way it is.
I don't think it is an option for SEn to go to China's wcg though. I'm pretty sure China wouldn't exactly accomodate for Taiwan, even for something as trivial as Broodwar T_T. I'd be pretty fucking pissed if I were F91, PJ or whoever if I found out my organization let SEn into the Chinese prelim.
Well.. if he did go, there is nothing the organisers can do. because in China. taiwanese are consider Chinese anyway so on what ground do they refuse him? and if he actually win it, then maybe have him wear the Chinese flag instead of taiwan flag or something... or have him read some communist commandments thingy that vows taiwan is part of greater China and never vote for shui bian or something that would be sweet! if sen refuse, they just say oh well, don't say we didn't give u a chance.
On October 25 2006 02:06 HiddenTalent wrote: So he did beat oov once in a bo3. I think if it was a bo5 or 7, oov would just straight up rape. Draco is damn good but comparing him to Oov, thats a quick judgement. But maybe in time he'll be up there, who knows.
Where do all these people come from? Who said that draco is currently better than oov? If you want to be skeptical without making things up, just post something like:
On October 24 2006 23:08 FireBatLover wrote: What!?!? Why are people talking about Draco's game play during the WCG? all he did was use some lame ass Cheese Whiz and got a win against Oov. i don't even think Draco can even match Oov skills if the game were to take longer leaps of minutes. don't get me wrong Draco is very good and all, but he couldn't last with Oov if the game were to last longer than a cheese whiz time. i think the media looked at it the wrong way.
Eh, he actually really should have won 2-0 vs oov, because he was in an excellent position game 2 ;o
I'm glad many Koreans are happy for Draco. Keep up the good work Draco! Both foreigners(tl.net) AND Koreans are supporting you You're the new great white hope! Draco Fighting!!!!~
On October 24 2006 23:08 FireBatLover wrote: What!?!? Why are people talking about Draco's game play during the WCG? all he did was use some lame ass Cheese Whiz and got a win against Oov. i don't even think Draco can even match Oov skills if the game were to take longer leaps of minutes. don't get me wrong Draco is very good and all, but he couldn't last with Oov if the game were to last longer than a cheese whiz time. i think the media looked at it the wrong way.
shut the hell up
i mean really, its one thing to say that he won but they werent impressive or whatever, but you obviously werent watching the games vs oov where he really shouldve won games 2 and 3 .
He played well, he looked sloppy at times and to me just watching the games you can tell his pvt past early game is well below oov and midas(considering they are 2 of the best tvp players ever its nott like thats a bad thing to say). But do go and say hes lucky because of "cheese whiz" you fucking faggot.
Draco's little fanboys and people like you get annoying on here.
Since hes another protoss player doing well, i stand by my assement that protoss is by far the easiest race to play against people above your skill level. Even though terran has turned into a faggoty race since oov came along too
On October 26 2006 20:43 Sadist wrote: Since hes another protoss player doing well, i stand by my assement that protoss is by far the easiest race to play against people above your skill level.
Well, looks like his early game is really tight. Along with tactics and strategy all game long. Really nice play by draco by in large.
Needs some polish for mid/late game however. Forgetting carrier capacity, then not realizing it. Running through known mine fields constantly without obs. Generally bad storming, like almost all ineffective (funny though how he stormed a lone SCV even though he had a shit load of zeal/goon by the SCV on a move command).
Amnesty that storming stuff happens cuz of the fast pace of the game. It's not like you can sit down for a minute and think of what to storm in a situation like that.
On October 26 2006 20:43 Sadist wrote: Since hes another protoss player doing well, i stand by my assement that protoss is by far the easiest race to play against people above your skill level.
Hmmm...maybe in PvT, but in PvP and PvZ?
yeah pvt maybe but pvp and pvz thats just so wrong