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The Art of ZvP
This guide will deal with zvp in general as well as going a little more into details on three popular zvp styles. The builds will only deal with a fast expanding protoss.
On B.net I'm more known as SieGe. If you happen to have heard of me you may judge me based on that, but it will do you no good.
Beware, it's long! And English isn't my native language.
Table of Contents 0.0 Scouting 0.1 Early Game Scouting 0.2 Mid Game Scouting 0.3 Late Game Scouting 0.4 Pre Game "Scouting" 0.5 Early Game
1.0 Classic Spire Opening 1.1 The Build Order 1.2 The Mid Game Crossroad 1.3 Examples Games
2.0 Mass Hydra 2.1 The Build Order 2.2 The Mid Game Crossroad 2.3 Examples Games
3.0 The Hydra Rush 3.1 The Build Order 3.2 How to Play It 3.3 Examples Games
4.0 War 4.1 The Three Ways of Offense 4.2 The Art of Defense
5.0 Small Pieces of Advice
0.0 Scouting
I'll start out with the scouting section as I'll assume you know certain things about your opponent when explaining the builds in the next section.
0.1 Early Game Scouting
Early game scouting is all about finding out if he's fast expanding or playing one base.
On two player maps you simply send your first overlord to his base. Take a detour if there are any popular proxy spots close to your path. If there are any popular proxy spots close to your main you can check these with your second overlord.
On three player maps you send your first overlord to the base which's natural is the furthest away (!). Then send your second overlord the remaining base. However, send them both so that they will spot a zealot walking the ground path towards your base.
If it's a four player map you twelve drone scout.
0.2 Mid Game Scouting
There's basicly three different approaches to mid game for the Protoss. I'll give you a brief instruction for the counters to each of them. You must use a scouting overlord in his main to find out which approach your opponent is using. Your overlord might die but that's well worth it.
First of all we have the +1 attack zealot push. Begin with checking his forge. If it's not spinning, he's not zealot pushing. Then you want to look for the timing of his gateways. If he's doing a zealot push he's most likely adding two to three gateways shortly after he lays down his citadel. If he lays them down when the citadel is almost completed or shortly after he warps in his templar archives he's likely to have fitted in a stargate too.
If his core is spinning, we can discard the possibility to a zealot push.
The next popular opening is the one stargate to ground build. With this build he might or might not upgrade the ground and air upgrades. Hence we can't catch this build by looking at his upgrade facilities. However, we can still look at his troop production buildings. First of all we want to look for a stargate. However he might be able to hide that one. Then there's the gateways, they'll almost always be placed in an open area in his base. If he adds one gateway shortly after his citadel and then one to two more shortly after his templar archives or simply two to three gateways after his archives he's likely to have done this build.
The last popular approach is the stargate/robotics opening. With this build he'll always be heavy on corsairs and he's very likely to have upgraded air attack as well as very unlikely to have upgraded ground attack. The dead give away for this build is two stargates or a very early robotics facility. With this build he'll add his gateways very late.
0.3 Late Game Scouting
There are basically three things you want to keep tabs on during the late game.
First there's the location of his army. Where's he moving, is he going to attack or is he leaving any areas undefended? Spread speed overlords around the map, or zerglings if you need your overlords for a drop. High ground is preferable for the overlords as they might require some micro in order to avoid getting killed if left in the open.
Then there's the empty expands. You really don't want him to grab another expansion without defending it with his army. Hence we'll place one zergling in every empty expansion. If possible, you can put one on patrol in-between two expansions. If you have enough overlords you also want to place an overlord in every expansion so that your zerglings don't get assassinated by dark templars. You'll still need the zerglings to kill any incoming probes though.
Lastly you don't want to be caught off guard by a tech switch. Fly an overlord into his main every now and then to check his buildings. If his army is smaller than it should be, get paranoid!
0.4 Pre Game "Scouting"
Is your opponent notorious for using a certain build? Make sure your build counters his, but don't discard the possibility of him using another build unless you think it's your only chance to win. I.e your opponent is much better than you.
0.5 Early Game
This is not about scouting but it still applies to all different styles and you'll need to know it before the next section. So I'll post it here anyway.
The idea of the early game is to get away with an as good economy as possible. I've found it most efficient to defend the first three zealots using only zerglings, and then add sunkens after that.
So, first you make four zerglings (see the build order) to chase their scouting probe. These four also serve as defense against their first zealot.
Now you have to use your scouting overlord to see when he gets his second zealot. When you see him having two zealots you add four more lings. Then you add four more once again when you see him having a third zealot.
If he gets even more zealots he'll often stay in his base with them, saving them for a larger attack later on and not wanting to risk their lives. After all, you'll have zergling speed by now so he'll have a hard time knowing what you really have. If he moves out anyway, he might have gone a 2 gate strategy or some other abnormal thing, add sunkens. Think of one sunken as the equal of two zealots. If you clearly see which one of your bases he's going to attack, then only make sunkens in that base.
1.0 Classic Spire Opening
An old favorite often used by Koreans. This is my own adaptation of it.
1.1 The Build Order
12 Expand 11 Spawning Pool 13 or 15 Expand (You don't know what he's doing: 13, You know he's doing FE: 15) 14 Four Zerglings (Assuming you by now know he's going FE) 17 Extractor 18 Hatchery 18 Overlord 18 Lair The next 100 gas goes into the zergling speed upgrade. 21 Overlord 24 Extractor Spire as soon as Lair finishes. This will probably at, or close to, 30 supply.
1.2 The Mid Game Crossroad
You'll deal with the zealot push by cutting drones at 35 supply and making as many mutalisks as you can afford when your spire finishes. If you can't afford at the very least seven mutalisks there's probably something wrong with your early game. In that case, please ask for specific advice.
Anyway, after you've hatched your mutalisks you want to spend your next mineral wave on two sunken colonies in every chokepoint he's likely to attack. Also, remove two zerglings from your zergling group and put them to guard any empty mineral line he's likely to expand too. After all, we don’t want him to cannon up an expansion while we're busy defending his zealots.
Then lay your hydra den and take your third gas if there's a gayser in your expansion. Finally you upgrade lurkers and expand with your fifth hatchery.
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If he's doing a stargate build you want to lay down a hydralisk den as soon as you realize that it's a stargate build and use ten zerglings to run into his main (the remaining two shall be to scout the empty expansions, as in the earlier case) in order to find out if he's going ground or robo. You might also be able to kill some probes, but scouting is the number one priority. No matter what you find you can lay down a fifth hatchery and make some more drones compared to if he'd been zealot pushing.
If he appears to be going ground after the initial corsair(s) you upgrade lurkers and make scourges to fend of his corsairs. You might want to get one hydra per choke to fend of the first corsair if he teched very fast and one or both of your scouting overlords got killed by a dragoon. Make sure that you make at least two hydras, which can be morphed into lurkers, in your expansion so that you don't have to walk them there from your main. Also make three lurkers in your.
Your lurkers will finish before he can do a major ground attack. Invest in one sunken colony per choke before your lurkers have finished in order to fend off minor zealot attacks and dark templar harassment
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If he instead went for a mass corsair and robotics build you want to upgrade hydralisk speed and range, as well as burrow. Burrow can be a life saver for your drones and allows for some sexy shuttle pick-off micro. If you got the balls that is.
Also upgrade air armor. An air switch can be devastating if he stops making corsairs. Also, upgraded devourers are awesome in late game if he really devotes himself to air units.
Play defensively; you have a lot of expansions already. But use speedlings to make sure he doesn't grab another expansion. You don't want him to grow too big.
1.3 Examples Games
Replays with me: Vs Sair/Ground I forgot to make a fourth overlord this game. Don't do the same mistake.
VODs of pros: Jaedong vs Bisu, Sair/Robo His bo is alittle different but in the end they play out in approximately the same way.
Note that I don't encourage the use of every single move made in the examples. They're not there so that you can copy every single little detail, they're simply there so that you can get an idea of how the build is supposed to look. I often do a lot of mistakes, especially when I'm ahead. The pros do mistakes too. You don't want to pick those up. "Do what I say, not what I do".
2.0 Mass Hydra
In my opinion this build is superior to the spire build on maps with very close second expansions while the spire build is preferred on maps where all expansions (or at least all gas expansions) are far away, think Lost Temple (far away) compared to Tau Cross (close).
2.1 The Build Order
12 Expand 11 Spawning Pool 13 or 15 Expand 14 Four Zerlings 16 Overlord 21 Hatchery 21 Extractor 21 Overlord
Get a fifth hatch as soon as you get 300 minerals and you're out of spare larva.
Lair with your first 100 gas, ~32 supply. Also get your second gas at the same time.
Zergling speed with your next 100 gas, ~36 supply.
Hydralisk Den with your next 50 gas, ~38.
When your Hydralisk Den completes you should have ~44 supply. This will be enough drones to support your mass. First get the hydralisk speed upgrade and the overlord speed upgrade, then start massing hydralisks.
Get a spire around the same time as you start the hydralisk range upgrade, also take your third gas at this time.
Get the lurker upgrade as soon as the hydralisk range upgrade finishes.
2.2 The Mid Game Crossroad
If he's zealot pushing you might, or might not need to make one to two sunkens to defend. It will depend a little on the distances and your current opponent. After you've defended, pressure him to prevent a possible expansion attempt but back off if he's got templars. Now get nine mutalisks (nine is the minimum for one-hit kills on templars) and check out if his main is vulnerable. Then start picking off his templars whenever he moves them away from cannon protection. If you can get his templars you can move in with your hydralisks and you'll be in a really good position.
If there isn't a geyser in your second exp you'll still be able to play this build. However, you won't be able to do a mutalisk tech switch. Instead, you want an earlier 3rd expand (with at least one geyser).
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If he instead made corsairs you want to start pressuring as soon as your overlord speed upgrade finishes. He must not secure another expansion. If he only made one corsairs you might still be able to do a mutalisk switch. Else you'll rely on your mass and his slightly delayed tech until you've got lurkers.
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Vs a sair/robo opening you want upgrade air armor as well as burrow. An air switch might come in handy later. Hence you also want to mine the third geyser if possible, in order to save up a stack of gas. Play defensively at first but move to the offense if you see an opportunity, like if you killed his shuttle.
2.3 Example Games
Replays with me: Vs Zealot Push Vs Zealot Push, No Gas In 2nd Exp I did a few mistakes in the early game here, so the bo isn't 100%. Also, note my attack on his min only at 11:00. That one makes no sense at all and is a big mistake, because my economy was much better than his, hence I would only have needed to defend in order to win.
VODs of Pros: Jaedong vs Bisu, Ground Only Jaedong vs Best, Sair/Ground Jaedong vs Bisu, Sair/Robo
3.0 The Hydralisk Rush
This is the cheese you throw in when your opponent expects it the least. Not the funniest build in the world but it's good for ladder climbing and important games where you think you're the worse player.
3.1 The Build Order
9 Overlord 9 Spawning Pool 9 Extractor Get lingspeed asap then pull the drones off gas. 9 Get six zerglings 15 Expand 15 Start mining gas again 16 Hydra Den 16 Overlord 16 Mass Hydras
Get the hydralisk range upgrade first, then the speed upgrade.
3.2 How to Play It
When your first six zerglings hatch you send one after his probe and use the other five to fake aggression but return shortly after you left your base and try to kill the probe instead. The only thing you want out of the fake is to force cannons.
The absolutely most important thing with this build is to not let him scout it. Kill all scouting probes that leaves his base using speed lings and always have enough lings around to be able to defeat his zealots, should they move out.
You mustn't start mining gas again before you've rid yourself of his scouting probe. Note that there'll only be a few seconds in-between when your zergling speed upgrade completes and when you want to start mining gas again. Wait until you've killed his probe before you start mining gas, however, don't use the spare larva on anything. Even if we have to delay our hydralisk den a little we'll still get the same amount of hydras, only slower upgrades.
Attack whenever you think you can beat him. However, generally your chances of beating him grows the longer into the game you get, assuming he hasn't scouted your build yet. If he scouts it, you need to attack asap.
3.3 Example Games
Replay with me: Some poor Toss dies
VODs of Pros: July vs Bisu
4.0 War
Often you see the protoss move out into the middle with a large army only to be attacked by the zerg army. However, more often than not do the protoss wins the battle and then moves on to win the game. This is because attacking the protoss rarely makes sense.
In battle the defender is favored. This is especially true if defensive units such as the siege tank or the lurker is used. In order to maximize the efficiency of our lurkers we must be the defender. However, this doesn't mean that we'll be the passive the whole game. It just means that we will force him to make the last move towards us.
The one exception to this is when our army is clearly the largest. This could for example be when you're sitting with two groups of ultras vs his 130 supply army or when you've just picked off all his templars with your mutalisks or when he've clearly over extended himself by expanding and/or teching too much.
However, just because he's expanding he's not overextending himself. You must also judge the size of his army, can he defend that expansion? If you're unsure it's often best to not attack it. If you attack and fail, take it as a learnt lesson; you've just gotten slightly better at judging the strength of your army compared to your opponent's! This is one of the most valuable skills in the game.
4.1 The Three Ways of Offense
Knowing that we'll be the defender in battle we must find ways to make him come to us. This can be done is several ways.
First of all we might set up our troops in a way so that he must kill them in order to extend himself. Ie a contain.
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The second method is to move into an undefended or weakly defended area controlled by him and set up a defensive position there, and then wait for him to come and reclaim the area. For example, you could move into his poorly defended expansion just as he moves away from it and burrow your lurkers in position. Then you'll be the defender when he arrives five seconds later, yet you're attacking him.
This method can also be applied by dropping your units straight into his main. If you brought hydras and lurkers with the drop you can try to pick of his observer(s) in order to maximize the damage done by your lurkers.
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The third method is taking an expansion and then setting up your army so that he must defeat you in order to kill the expansion. If he doesn't attack it, fine, you've gotten yourself another expansion! If he attacks it, fine yet again, you've got a positioning advantage!
However, beware; he might try to apply method number two by attacking another one of your bases. Hence you must keep track of his army and move your army accordingly. In the end it doesn't matter which base he attacks if you're already there to defend it.
4.2 The Art of Defense
The first and foremost important thing when defending is the positioning of your lurkers. They must be spread out so that he can't storm many at a time. Then they must be placed slightly in front of the rest of your army. If possible you also want to place them with a choke point in-between your lurkers and the enemy. However, that is rarely possible.
Spreading out your lurkers quickly is quite hard to do. However, it's a skill, hence you'll get better at it when you practice it.
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Then you want to think of destroying his observers. If he carelessly lets one fly into your army you kill it with hydras. If he defends them better you can still take them out with scourges. Always keep a few scourges around for this purpose. When his army is busy attacking yours your scourges will be able to fly in without getting killed. Prior to the battle you can also try to sacrifice a few zerglings to draw fire while you kill the observer with your scourge.
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Lastly we have the storm dodging. First of all we want to avoid creating blood fests by spreading out our army as much as possible prior to the battle. Then we want to move hydralisks out of storms whenever they get stormed. This has become much more efficient since the introduction of LatencyChanger.
The more advanced form of storm dodging is to predict where he'll storm based on where your units are clumped up the most and when he'll storm based on the distance to his high templars and their movements, ie the time it will take him to move into range. And then move the group of units you think will get stormed slightly before he actually storms them.
5.0 Small Pieces of Advice
- Start upgrading directly after you've started your first wave of lurkers. If he's going corsair/reaver you won't need lurkers, instead, start upgrading when both hydralisk upgrades have finished.
- Get all three ground upgrades when playing the mass hydra build but skip the ranged attack upgrade when using the spire build. Unless the plays corsair/reaver, then you want to get the ranged attack upgrade no matter your build.
- Learn to master the defiler, it's the most devastating unit in the game. It's not too hard to get a good plague off before the battle, and it can easily remove several hundred hit points. Swarm is awesome too, if he's dragoon and archons heavy.
- In the late game, use defiler/zergling raids against his expansions while using your main army to occupy his main army. You don't necessarily have to engage him, just show him that you're near.
- If he tries to block your expand with his scouting probe you lay your first hatchery in the second exp. If the second exp is too far away you lay the hatchery in your expansion but not in the expansion spot. You'll need to bring out two drones in either case.
- On maps like Wuthering Highs and Tau Cross you want to place a drone on hold position in the mini choke to avoid getting cannon rushed.
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There's probably plenty of errors in it. Let me know when you find one so I can fix it please.
I mean lanuage errors, not strategical ones.
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Cool, i never thought you would be SeiGe
Anyway, i've only read the first two chapters and it's great so far, really in depth which is great.
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can i tell you about the strategical ones i find or no
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Cool. Ur really good Zerg player. I reccomend to copy this guide to ur own blog and add next guides (ZvT and ZvZ). :D
That would be great when good Protoss player will do guide like this. Every Protoss guide is outdated. I must switch from Toss to Zerg because of "guideless"! :D
IMHO this should go to reccomended threads.
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Great guide, but I cant find the "12 Hatch Vs Double Gate Rush" part.
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Ops. It's not in there. I decided that I couldn't write it accurately enough atm.
Zulu, sure you can, But I'll defend my points.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On May 25 2008 19:52 zulu_nation8 wrote: can i tell you about the strategical ones i find or no
Considering how sycophantic this forum is towards "News" contributors and staff, you are remarkably mean-spirited and unhelpful to someone who is contributing towards the Strategy forum. There's things in there I find questionable too (such as the rather late upgrading) but you may as well be constructive and point out what you think is wrong.
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I have question, Siege. Do u play Ling+Lurker strats with quick evo (just as Mondragon plays) or do u play popular nowadays 3 evo "Sauron Zerg"? If yes how should peple play it?
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I've only read the scouting section so far, but you don't seem to provide a reason for doing things. The most notable one being "Send your overlord to the base with the furthest natural". Why should I do that? You don't give a reason.
It's also unbelievably rigid.
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On May 25 2008 22:51 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2008 19:52 zulu_nation8 wrote: can i tell you about the strategical ones i find or no Considering how sycophantic this forum is towards "News" contributors and staff, you are remarkably mean-spirited and unhelpful to someone who is contributing towards the Strategy forum. There's things in there I find questionable too (such as the rather late upgrading) but you may as well be constructive and point out what you think is wrong.
GI stop owning me
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You send it to the furthest position because it let's you see two paths instead of one. The thing that matters is whether you find that zealot walking towards your base or not. If you send your first one to the closest and he is there you'll see the zealot well in time but if he's not there you won't see it in time.
By instead sending the first one to the furthest base you'll find both just in time.
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1.1 The Build Order
12 Expand 11 Spawning Pool 13 or 15 Expand (You don't know what he's doing: 13, You know he's doing FE: 15) 14 Four Zerglings (Assuming you by now know he's going FE) 17 Extractor 18 Hatchery 18 Overlord 18 Lair The next 100 gas goes into the zergling speed upgrade. 21 Overlord 24 Extractor Spire as soon as Lair finishes. This will probably at, or close to, 30 supply.
I think you wrote something wrong in this build. You go 4 hatch but 17 extractor. Somehow i think this does not work out. Did you make a mistake there?
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Siege do u use Mondragon build? I mean pretty fast evo and getting almost pure Ling+Lurker+Scourge while advancing to Ultra-Ling. How should it be played properly? I have hard time to play this style... Help plz... :D
P.S. ZvT guide! ZvT guide! ZvT guide! :D
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On May 26 2008 01:01 Blu-Ray wrote: Siege do u use Mondragon build? I mean pretty fast evo and getting almost pure Ling+Lurker+Scourge while advancing to Ultra-Ling. How should it be played properly? I have hard time to play this style... Help plz... :D
P.S. ZvT guide! ZvT guide! ZvT guide! :D I don't play that style. Though I could probably help anyway. Do you want a bo or some general gameplay advice?
ZvT Guide 1 ZvT Guide 2
trickster, it's not a mistake. It do work out.
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Interresting guide, nice work ^^
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Just wanna say one thing is that most of your views are very specific and subjective.
"Often you see the protoss move out into the middle with a large army only to be attacked by the zerg army. However, more often than not do the protoss wins the battle and then moves on to win the game. This is because attacking the protoss rarely makes sense."
I rarely experience this, if I can kill off toss's army completely I win the game most of the time. And I initiate the attacks all the time. The only times when I avoid toss' army is when it's signicantly larger which in that case I turtle hard with resources and try to build my own army and harass.
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The nature of the lurker makes the zerg army much stronger in defense. Hence you'll need a larger army to win when you attack compared to when you defend..Of course you'll win anyway if your army is large enough but we can't assume that you've already outmacroed your opponent.
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right so why not just build the amount of lurkers necessary to defend and spend your gas elsewhere like on ultras with which you can actually attack with. More importantly the point I'm trying to make is there is no rule that zerg shouldn rarely attack the protoss, it doesn't make sense at all.
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I always have trouble defend against 2gate zeal rush--> forge -->expand.. cuz early game i tend to make a lot of lings/sunkens to defend that constant zeal pump. then when he takes his 2nd nexus my econ is then way behind and i won't have enough units to defend if i take my 3rd. So can you please go over the right BOs or just what i should do against that? Thx
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In terms of Mondragon build I know BO a bit (but still this would be great if u would tell correct BO). I don't know how to proceed with upgrades, attacking, expanding, generally with gameplay of Mondi build. Are there any other ZvP main strategies that u don't mentioned in ur guide? Thx in advance.
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1 more question: when I scout with my Drone on 4 player map should I retreat it when it scouts his build or should I keep it in my base? When I play Tau Cross/Wuthering Heights is this really neccesary to have this Drone on chockepoint? I have owned numerous cannon rushes with my initial ling canceling my expo Hatchery and moving it onto the next expo and dealing with rush via Zerglings. When he is really behind and mass Ling/Hydra finishes him. Is this good approach?
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You don't talk about 9pool/9gas ->lingspeed opening. Any reason? It's been a favorite opening of mine for some time now, forces toss to cannon, denies scouting, and allows for possibility of run-by of cannons. Just curious that you don't even mention it in passing.
Nice guide btw. Will have to re-read.
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On May 26 2008 02:00 zulu_nation8 wrote: right so why not just build the amount of lurkers necessary to defend and spend your gas elsewhere like on ultras with which you can actually attack with. More importantly the point I'm trying to make is there is no rule that zerg shouldn rarely attack the protoss, it doesn't make sense at all. Cause lurkers are far stronger when used correctly? And why waste gas on lurker if you're not bringing them into your attacks? Then you'll be at an even huger disatvantage. Your ideas simply doesn't makes sense if you want to be efficient.
Any strategican should really know that the defender is always at an advantage when prepared. Hence you'll try to make every battle into a defensive one. If you catch your opponent off-gaurd, sure go ahead and attack (I think I mentioned it in the op?) but don't attack a prepared opponent. You'll destroyed if the armys are even.
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yey, thanks! I've been wanting to see a ZvP guide ._.
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Cool, it's great to see more ZvP guides (I think we only have one other than this eh?). Albeit it's not very informative for the higher-caliber player, it's very useful for lower skilled people imo. I think there are a few things which could be improved on (you don't describe a few things thoroughly enough, the main thing I think is just you didn't really explain when you needed +1 carapace. Generally players like mondragon get it at or slightly after protoss begins it during a +1 speedzeal rush. I think you might have wanted to tell how to do just a standard macro counter to +1 speedzeal rush with a +1 carapace ling + sunk defense) and a couple of tips you could add in, too (my favorite is taking a defiler + lings in an ovie, drop them at expo and d swarm and focus on nexus ) but otherwise really nice and good work, it's nice to see people contributing to the community!
And I didn't notice that English wasn't your native language !
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Your massive turtling is not exactly artistic.
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On May 26 2008 03:10 Superiorwolf wrote:Cool, it's great to see more ZvP guides (I think we only have one other than this eh?). Albeit it's not very informative for the higher-caliber player, it's very useful for lower skilled people imo. I think there are a few things which could be improved on (you don't describe a few things thoroughly enough, the main thing I think is just you didn't really explain when you needed +1 carapace. Generally players like mondragon get it at or slightly after protoss begins it during a +1 speedzeal rush. I think you might have wanted to tell how to do just a standard macro counter to +1 speedzeal rush with a +1 carapace ling + sunk defense) and a couple of tips you could add in, too (my favorite is taking a defiler + lings in an ovie, drop them at expo and d swarm and focus on nexus ) but otherwise really nice and good work, it's nice to see people contributing to the community! And I didn't notice that English wasn't your native language ! Thanks.
The +1 build develops into a whole other playstyle, which I've forgone from describing entirely. Besides, we already have a guide for that style of play.
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On May 26 2008 03:04 ZerG~LegenD wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2008 02:00 zulu_nation8 wrote: right so why not just build the amount of lurkers necessary to defend and spend your gas elsewhere like on ultras with which you can actually attack with. More importantly the point I'm trying to make is there is no rule that zerg shouldn rarely attack the protoss, it doesn't make sense at all. Cause lurkers are far stronger when used correctly? And why waste gas on lurker if you're not bringing them into your attacks? Then you'll be at an even huger disatvantage. Your ideas simply doesn't makes sense if you want to be efficient. Any strategican should really know that the defender is always at an advantage when prepared. Hence you'll try to make every battle into a defensive one. If you catch your opponent off-gaurd, sure go ahead and attack (I think I mentioned it in the op?) but don't attack a prepared opponent. You'll destroyed if the armys are even.
1.Lurkers are not stronger than ultras. I'm saying to use the lurkers as a transition before hive tech. Attacking with a lot of lurkers isn't efficient period because storms will rape them.
2. That's not true at all, if you're zerg and at a good position to flank with equal units or at any position with more units you should always attack. I think your view comes from being used to having smaller armies than the toss. A prepared toss army is basically one that sits there, a prepared zerg army is one that can flank, you're making it sound like it's rarely smart to attack tosses which is just simply untrue.
A lot of strategy in starcraft comes from highly specific subjective experiences and that's why it's hard to make guides that cover all aspects. My point is that the way you play sounds like you play a lot of tosses who macro better than you. Not everyone or I hope not everyone has such a conservative mindset when ZvPing. Turtling is key to a zerg if he's at a disadvantage and need to build or he has obtained more resources than the toss and is going through a tech transition. Otherwise it's just an ugly way to play and prolongs the game unnecessarily. A zerg in my opinion should take advantage of any opportunity to attack and be super aggressive but only if he has more resources and don't waste them in battle tradeoff.
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much thanks to u on the mass hydra portion, i always play fast spire on just about any map, the part where u talked about whether the second expand has gas may determine what build zerg should use was very insightful. good work!
one suggestion: for the war section, a good tactic is distraction. while it is rarely wise to attack the protoss army head on, zerg can often temporarily remove the protoss army from specific areas by creating a distraction elsewhere, and overwhelm the cannons when his army is not there. ie, small distraction drop in main, followed by a frontal attack on toss 3rd base when his army goes back to save the main. regardless of how big the toss army is, if it is absent in a battle, zerg wins.
i have agree with zerg-legend on the idea of playing defensively. every good toss who trained me in pvz told me the same thing: its the protoss' job to kill the zerg, not vice versa, just keep growing like a virus and toss will be forced to attack despite zerg having defensive advantages. trying to gain defensive advantage is a must, we should not confuse that with passive turtling.
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On May 26 2008 05:26 zulu_nation8 wrote: Lurkers are not stronger than ultras. I'm saying to use the lurkers as a transition before hive tech. Attacking with a lot of lurkers isn't efficient period because storms will rape them 1: You're greatly underestimating lurkers. Their spines tear anything melee to pieces. A lurker/ultra/defiler combination is far deadlier than just ultras or ultra/defiler. 2: Hence you force him to come at you. If you just leave them behind you're locking up rescources and will get raped if an equal toss brings his whole army.
That's not true at all, if you're zerg and at a good position to flank with equal units or at any position with more units you should always attack. I think your view comes from being used to having smaller armies than the toss. A prepared toss army is basically one that sits there, a prepared zerg army is one that can flank, you're making it sound like it's rarely smart to attack tosses which is just simply untrue.
A prepared zerg army is one which makes full use of their every resource. By attacking you're not making full use of the lurker, one of your greatest assets, hence attacking is not making full use of all available resources.
My point is that your play is unefficient, hence your opponents play must be even more unefficient if you're winning your games.
Starcraft is alot about quick decision making, but you still need a foundation to build your play upon. And that's why you read guides.
Player 1 has 12 zerglings above a ramp, player 2 has 12 zerglings below the ramp? Who will win when they clash?
Player 1 has 4 zerglings, Player 2 has one zealot. Who will win when they clash?
Player 1 has 6 lurkers, Player 2 has 5 lurkers. Who will win when they clash?
The answer is that it depends on the circumstances of the battle. Player 2 could win each and every one of these if he secures a favorable battle ground and defends it. On the other hand Player 1 could turn the battle into a real slaughter if he applies the same tricks. There is no reason to discard using every advantage available.
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Hm lurks are not so hot against protoss, they melt to storms, they suck vs dragoons, archons have way too many hp for them, protoss units are so fat ass for them to be effective and they need missile upgrades which means 1 more evo, which means less gas/minerals.
Not to mention reavers just make popcorns with lurkers.
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Any views on proxy hatcheries?
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Kind of noob question, but maybe add in how to respond to cannonrushes there as you advice to always 12hatch? I'm not used to 12hatching and have gotten cannonrushed my last 3 games vs p.
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Norway28267 Posts
nice guide by a good player! :-)
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Calgary25940 Posts
I wish people would stop shitting on this guy. I haven't read the entire thing, but what I have seems spot on and his replays show some strong play.
Cloud, you're retarded. "Lurkers suck against Protoss"??????
What the fuck man?
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Norway28267 Posts
I was also under the impression that you were pretty young but the guide is structured like it was written by someone in university :D
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Hmm there was good old replay Suncow vs Draco vs 2 gate I ll mb upload later
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In terms of Mondragon build I know BO a bit (but still this would be great if u would tell correct BO). I don't know how to proceed with upgrades, attacking, expanding, generally with gameplay of Mondi build. Are there any other ZvP main strategies that u don't mentioned in ur guide? Thx in advance.
9 ol pool 10 gas (3 drones after finished , mine till 100) 16 hatch (nat) , following 12 lings. 13 3rd hatch - 13 cuz thats most often supply count after lings runby 19 4th hatch 23 evo, drones back to mine gas 33 Lair 38 2nd gas/den 46 5th hatch 80 6th hatch in expo 90-100 7th hatch
then around 120 +2-3 hatch <><
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I must say just what a fucking genie Mondragon is with this bo :D Sooo good
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Great guide especially the 'mass hydra' part ^^
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it's as simple as this: there are different schools of play in every MU. This guide is leaned heavily to the defensive one. That doesn't make it less correct, even if you're a fan of the more aggressive styles.
Neither does it make it the best defensive guide either, but it's useless to argue "you should play aggressive, not defensive!" as both ways are obviously effective as both are used on high level play. Mondragon himself argued in his guide (I think it was in there) taht zerg should always avoid attacking the P. While that guide is not adapted to modern zvp the fundamentals of the mu still applies so this should hold true. Arguing that mondragon's play makes no sense is... well that would need more backup than theorycrafting.
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On May 26 2008 06:21 Cloud wrote: Hm lurks are not so hot against protoss, they melt to storms, they suck vs dragoons, archons have way too many hp for them, protoss units are so fat ass for them to be effective and they need missile upgrades which means 1 more evo, which means less gas/minerals.
Not to mention reavers just make popcorns with lurkers.
LOL, lurkers suck vs. protoss? Have you EVER played a zvp?
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On May 25 2008 19:42 ZerG~LegenD wrote: If he appears to be going ground after the initial corsair(s) you upgrade lurkers and make scourges to fend of his corsairs. You might want to get one hydra per choke to fend of the first corsair if he teched very fast and one or both of your scouting overlords got killed by a dragoon. Make sure that you make at least two hydras, which can be morphed into lurkers, in your expansion so that you don't have to walk them there from your main. Also make three lurkers in your.
[/list] make 3 lurkers in your .....?
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On May 26 2008 06:21 Cloud wrote: Hm lurks are not so hot against protoss, they melt to storms, they suck vs dragoons, archons have way too many hp for them, protoss units are so fat ass for them to be effective and they need missile upgrades which means 1 more evo, which means less gas/minerals.
Not to mention reavers just make popcorns with lurkers. i think ret disagrees with you
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
One can play ZvP without lurkers, and they aren't nearly as essential as they are in ZvT. But to play ZvP without lurkers is like playing PvT without storm - you're really banking a lot on your late game tech.
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This is a very cool guide for weaker players like me. Thanks much!
The problem I have in ZvP is figuring out how to beat the 2gate zeal opener, I always find myself barely surviving the onslaught (usually attack comes on my nat, with sunkens just finishing as the zeals come in) and then falling behind when he gets sair/dt for map control before I've been able to upgrade ol speed, drop tech or anything.
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Then lay your hydra den and take your third gas if there's a gayser in your expansion. Finally you upgrade lurkers and expand with your fifth hatchery.
gayser Rofl. Nice guide
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On May 28 2008 08:24 b3h47pte wrote:Show nested quote +Then lay your hydra den and take your third gas if there's a gayser in your expansion. Finally you upgrade lurkers and expand with your fifth hatchery. gayser Rofl. Nice guide
So that he can fix it, it's spelt geyser.
0.2 Mid Game Scouting
There's basicly three different approaches...
It's spelt basically. I didn't read through it thoroughly but those are two to fix.
Thanks a lot for the guide! Of course didn't players have different styles but this is very helpful. There'll never be one 'perfect zerg play' guide so don't let others opinions make you feel like your insight isn't appreciated.
Cheers.
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Nice guide IMHO, thank you.
Yet another perspective on ZvP, and I like the detailled recipes.
I'd love to see a ZvT, ZvZ guide from you, too!
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As a player who has alot to learn about this game, i found it really good and useful. Praise you sir!
Although i'm not that experienced, from watching replays i think the defensive zerg style seems to be the most stable and reliable way of playing the ZvP matchup, if the P goes cannon FE, which they usually do. Aside from muta harass and all-in hydra push, playing aggressive seems to normally get you killed, just because cannons/storm are so good and cost-efficient at holding zerg armies. But thats just my two cents.
I have a couple of questions though about unit combinations:
- When is it best to go mass hydras? - When is it best to use pure lurker/ling to lategame? - When is it best to use hydra/lurker combo?
I like using hydra/lurker combo because i find pure hydras can get owned in midgame, and lurker ling is very hard to control when moving around and attacking/positioning quickly. But i do use it sometimes and find that i can win some games by just holding a long contain and getting 4th/5th expos up before toss gets his 3rd.
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Mass hydras is only a good option if he hasn't got any templars. I.e if he went sair reaver or if you managed to pick off all of his templars early game. Alternatively if you know that if he moves out you will be able to pick off his templars, the latter would be the case in early game if you're confident in your mutalisk micro and picked that approach to the game.
Pure lurker/ling is a stable approach to the ground based toss (though not the dragoon/reaver one). However, your focus is on the lurkers, not the zerglings. As your opening did not grant you the equal carapace upgrades needed to build your play around the zergling. Hence you need alot of gas - don't be afraid to expand.
Hydra/lurker relies slightly less on upgrades than lurker/ling. However, you really can't afford to lose a group of hydras every time he storms. I think hydras are better defensive units than zerglings. The protoss needs to bring his zealots further into your lurker field to be able to reach them.
I think lurker/ling and hydra/lurker are equally viable vs ground based tosses but plays out slightly different. If he focuses on air units you must go hydralisks though, and get lurkers when he switches to ground - if he do.
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Enjoyed reading it, thanks a bunch =D!
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On May 30 2008 16:56 ZerG~LegenD wrote: Mass hydras is only a good option if he hasn't got any templars. I.e if he went sair reaver or if you managed to pick off all of his templars early game. Alternatively if you know that if he moves out you will be able to pick off his templars, the latter would be the case in early game if you're confident in your mutalisk micro and picked that approach to the game.
he won't have any templars if you incorporate queens into your game.
YES THAT'S RIGHT I WENT THERE
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Hi, I'm a long time lurker and I've got a few questions to ask.
1) In those build orders do the supply mean the actual supply or the number of drones? The reason why I ask is that, depending on what the opponent does, you'll need a different number of zerglings to defend, so it'll affect the number of overlords needed and the number of drones that are available. i.e. if your opponent goes 2 gate, you just can't have the same number of drones as you would have if he just FE'd. Taking that into consideration, should one continue as recommended in the build order with the exact same supply values listed after he's dispatched the first strike or should he substract the amount of zerglings that he added to defend?
2) in your first two build orders you say that one should expand at 13 or 15 depending whether you know the opponent is FE'ing or not. Your guide states that in a situation of ignorance, one should expand with the 13th drone. That seems rather counter-intuitive to me. You'd want to prepare for an assault in case the opponent is 2 gating so expanding this early would be dangerous, no?
Thanks for the amazing guide, BTW. It helped this newbie a lot!
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1) None of the build orders mentioned were ment to be used vs anything but a fast expand. Hence you cannot use them against a two gate.
If you still lost some zerglings to zealot harass you can withdraw the lost supply from the build order. However, it doesn't matter much if you build your spire at 29 or 30 supply. Still, if you're closing in to 25 something's probably not right.
2) If you make an hatchery at 13 you'll have 4 larva when your spawning pool finnishes. This mean you can make 8 zerglings to help defend vs a 1-base strategy. However, if you make your hatchery at 15 you'll only have 2 larva, ie 4 zerglings, which leaves you with close to no chance at all vs a 2 gater.
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Ah I see. Thanks for the clarification. Just one last thing: if a 2 gate is scouted, would it be wiser to put the 3rd hatch in main, natural or at a new expand?
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If a two gate is scouted you either don't lay the hatchery at all or you cancel it. You'll need the minerals for creeps/sunkens. You might be able to get away with a third hatchery if it's a weak two gate but unless you're able to judge the situation correctly you're better off playing it safe. Though you'd learn more if you lost because of that a few times.
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Wow, team liquid is a bandwagon to admin posts o.o; but then again chill has that effect on people.. + Show Spoiler +
thread was fun, assured me everything I've been doing thus far is correct, -ish anyways
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On June 07 2008 18:39 ZerG~LegenD wrote: If a two gate is scouted you either don't lay the hatchery at all or you cancel it. You'll need the minerals for creeps/sunkens. You might be able to get away with a third hatchery if it's a weak two gate but unless you're able to judge the situation correctly you're better off playing it safe. Though you'd learn more if you lost because of that a few times.
first time on iccup was like "T_T"
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Calgary25940 Posts
Recommended despite Zulu being a moron. :D
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