I played alone in LT to test the benefits of a manner pylon.
How did I do this? -I created a pylon when I had 100 minerals -I sent 2 probes mining from the minerals that were blocked, while two others would destroy the pylon -When the pylon was destroyed, I checked how much minerals the 2 probes had collected in total. -I did it 10 times, 5 times in 2 LT patches, 5 times on 2 other LT patches.
Results: The probes mined 120-128 minerals each time
Conclusion: -My first impulse was to conclude that it was a little beneficial move, to give up 100 minerals (pylons) to take off the opportunity cost of mining 120-128 minerals from the enemy. -On a second thought, this might not seen as good, because you're losing an immediate 100, while the enemy is losing a short-run 120-128 minerals. Could his money be put to a better investment, you could have actually fallen behind. Specially because you get no returns on losing a pylon, and you are gonna have to substitute this important unit with another, therefore costing you 200 minerals. -In other words, it might be able to delay a second/third zealots from the enemy, while keeping your Build Order intact for the period that pylon survives (seeing that you got the manner pylon at 15/17, for example, as part of the BO).
In other eventualities it might be beneficial if 3+ probes get trapped.
I didnt try for the rewards of trapping 1 probe, and comparison from gather behind the line (trapped 0 probes), because it just seems logic that it is not as beneficial as trapping 2 probes.
Thoughts? Did I miss anything?
PS: Vs Terran is a brand different story, because Tech timing matter more, so delaying the terran factory/tech a bit may earn the protoss the advantage she needs to cause some damage.
So from blocking 2 probes?, they are not mining 128 minerals? You could always cancel the pylon at the last second. And how did you calculate that the 2 probes that are stuck would mine 100-128?
Keep in mind that most players will get all probes out of the block but one, but that probably doesnt make a difference if you are still attacking it with the same amount of probes.
On September 11 2007 13:06 il0seonpurpose wrote: So from blocking 2 probes?, they are not mining 128 minerals? You could always cancel the pylon at the last second. And how did you calculate that the 2 probes that are stuck would mine 100-128?
That's how much they should be mining, I think?
On September 11 2007 13:09 BalloonFight wrote: Keep in mind that most players will get all probes out of the block but one, but that probably doesnt make a difference if you are still attacking it with the same amount of probes.
And yeah, they can do the stack thing so manner pylon isn't too effective ;/
No immediate return on the investment? It's a pylon. It allows you to build shit. A decent player will use a manner pylon to keep his early production running in the same way a normal pylon would. So he won't be at all behind until after the pylon dies. In short, you're wrong to say a pylon is an immediate investment while the 128 is over time. The opposite is true. The pylon is functional right up to the point it dies and needs to be replaced which is after the 128. Simply put, it gives the person manner pyloning a short term advantage of up to 128 which will need to be later repaid.
On September 11 2007 13:18 ArC_man wrote: You can get all the blocked probes out, there was a thread about this in the past (and there was a video demonstrating it). It's a nifty little trick.
On September 11 2007 13:18 ArC_man wrote: You can get all the blocked probes out, there was a thread about this in the past (and there was a video demonstrating it). It's a nifty little trick.
yeah that Commentator dude was a gosu poster
Problem is you still can't mine the patches that the manner pylon blocks without going all the way around.
On September 11 2007 13:18 ArC_man wrote: You can get all the blocked probes out, there was a thread about this in the past (and there was a video demonstrating it). It's a nifty little trick.
yeah that Commentator dude was a gosu poster
Problem is you still can't mine the patches that the manner pylon blocks without going all the way around.
Don't you just do the stack/clip trick on the minerals that are in the immediate vicinity?
On September 11 2007 13:17 LosingID8 wrote: i find the benefit is a lot more psychological
On September 11 2007 13:09 BalloonFight wrote: Keep in mind that most players will get all probes out of the block but one, but that probably doesnt make a difference if you are still attacking it with the same amount of probes.
How does your logic make sense? He doesn't lose 128 minerals. What he actually loses is the difference between 128 minerals and how many minerals they could've mined if the pylon wasn't blocking. Also the two probes that are attacking the pylon could be mining too, so he loses an additional however much he could have mined with those 2 attacking probes.
On September 11 2007 13:42 Wonders wrote: How does your logic make sense? He doesn't lose 128 minerals. What he actually loses is the difference between 128 minerals and how many minerals they could've mined if the pylon wasn't blocking. Also the two probes that are attacking the pylon could be mining too, so he loses an additional however much he could have mined with those 2 attacking probes.
The 2 attacking probes are the ones stuck... but it doesn't matter since they can jump over anyways.
On September 11 2007 13:18 ArC_man wrote: You can get all the blocked probes out, there was a thread about this in the past (and there was a video demonstrating it). It's a nifty little trick.
yeah that Commentator dude was a gosu poster
lol, I thought we uncovered your little secret? =P
Sorry I misunderstood that bit. But the point still stands, the enemy loses mining time from the 2 probes trapped completely, and a slower mining time for other untrapped probes.
On September 11 2007 13:18 ArC_man wrote: You can get all the blocked probes out, there was a thread about this in the past (and there was a video demonstrating it). It's a nifty little trick.
yeah that Commentator dude was a gosu poster
Problem is you still can't mine the patches that the manner pylon blocks without going all the way around.
Don't you just do the stack/clip trick on the minerals that are in the immediate vicinity?
Are all cancellations 33% or something? I always thought it was 25 but I never checked.
On September 11 2007 13:32 alphablend wrote: What if you cancel the pylon? Then you lose 25, is that a gain?
34
On September 11 2007 13:38 alphablend wrote:
On September 11 2007 13:31 NonY[rC] wrote:
On September 11 2007 13:18 ArC_man wrote: You can get all the blocked probes out, there was a thread about this in the past (and there was a video demonstrating it). It's a nifty little trick.
yeah that Commentator dude was a gosu poster
Problem is you still can't mine the patches that the manner pylon blocks without going all the way around.
Don't you just do the stack/clip trick on the minerals that are in the immediate vicinity?
Are all cancellations 33% or something? I always thought it was 25 but I never checked.
Yeah it's about 33%, I remember doing a extractor cancel test and it was 17 minerals, so extractor probably 33 or 34.
Unit cancel is free though, and buildings with units and they die you get money back I think.
On September 11 2007 13:57 Superiorwolf wrote: Unit cancel is free though, and buildings with units and they die you get money back I think.
If a unit is building and the building dies before the unit comes out, you don't get your money back for that unit.
Uh I'm pretty certain that you are entirely wrong. Why don't you try it and double check ...
Me? Well I'm almost positive on the extractor being 17 minerals lost for cancel, but for the unit thing I'm tentative to say that since I've read it before but I haven't personally tested it...
On September 11 2007 13:32 alphablend wrote: What if you cancel the pylon? Then you lose 25, is that a gain?
34
On September 11 2007 13:38 alphablend wrote:
On September 11 2007 13:31 NonY[rC] wrote:
On September 11 2007 13:18 ArC_man wrote: You can get all the blocked probes out, there was a thread about this in the past (and there was a video demonstrating it). It's a nifty little trick.
yeah that Commentator dude was a gosu poster
Problem is you still can't mine the patches that the manner pylon blocks without going all the way around.
Don't you just do the stack/clip trick on the minerals that are in the immediate vicinity?
Are all cancellations 33% or something? I always thought it was 25 but I never checked.
Yeah it's about 33%, I remember doing a extractor cancel test and it was 17 minerals, so extractor probably 33 or 34.
Unit cancel is free though, and buildings with units and they die you get money back I think.
I was pretty sure building cancels were 25%, but I haven't played in ages. :/
How did I do this? -I created a pylon when I had 100 minerals -I sent 2 probes mining from the minerals that were blocked, while two others would destroy the pylon -When the pylon was destroyed, I checked how much minerals the 2 probes had collected in total. -I did it 10 times, 5 times in 2 LT patches, 5 times on 2 other LT patches.
Results: The probes mined 120-128 minerals each time
So the probes that mined from the blocked minerals took in 120-128 minerals by the time the pylon was destroyed by the 2 trapped probes attacking it. Only those 2 probes attacked the pylon?
But anyway, how does that demonstrate a 120-128 mineral loss from the manner pylon? I'm confused at your reasoning--take it through again please.
On September 11 2007 13:32 alphablend wrote: What if you cancel the pylon? Then you lose 25, is that a gain?
34
On September 11 2007 13:38 alphablend wrote:
On September 11 2007 13:31 NonY[rC] wrote:
On September 11 2007 13:18 ArC_man wrote: You can get all the blocked probes out, there was a thread about this in the past (and there was a video demonstrating it). It's a nifty little trick.
yeah that Commentator dude was a gosu poster
Problem is you still can't mine the patches that the manner pylon blocks without going all the way around.
Don't you just do the stack/clip trick on the minerals that are in the immediate vicinity?
Are all cancellations 33% or something? I always thought it was 25 but I never checked.
Yeah it's about 33%, I remember doing a extractor cancel test and it was 17 minerals, so extractor probably 33 or 34.
Unit cancel is free though, and buildings with units and they die you get money back I think.
Building cancel: 75% Unit cancel: 100% Upgrade cancel: 100% Scarab/interceptor cancel: 100% Queued units when building is destroyed: 100% Queued upgrade when building is destroyed: 75% Queued scarabs/interceptors when reaver/carrier dies: 0%
I'm really tired of people posting things that are absolutely incorrect, despite being trivial to check. If you're not sure about something, DON'T CORRECT SOMEONE. Either check for yourself, google it, or ask politely.
Canceling buildings refunds 75% (you lose 25%) Losing a building with units queued cancels the units being made and in queue (100% returned).
You lose 25 by canceling a pylon. You lose 13 for extractor trick. And on a related note, from all my extractor trick testing, it was never profitable: you lose the 13, you take the extractor drone off mining for a bit, and you delay your overlord to get a 10 drone early, which usually is one of the most inefficient drones (especially on 9 patch maps). Does anyone have any conclusive tests that show when extractor trick is useful? Maybe I'm just too slow to do it right, cause I've seen sAviOr do it.
I'm thinking it would only benefit on a 10 mineral map (*cough*Longinus*cough*) where the 10 drone immediately has an empty patch to mine or perhaps the 10th drone only makes a difference if microed properly. I see Jaedong doing the extractor trick plenty of times as well.
On September 11 2007 18:56 Piste wrote: Anyone still has that video which was posted by "Commentator" on the "Nal_Ra's anti manner pylon thread"? It wasn't available there anymore.
To me the main reason behind doing manner pylons has always been that my zealot harrass becomes so much harder for my opponent to deal with. His zealots will start attacking my pylons instead of chasing my zealots if he isn't paying enough attention, and probes will be running to the back of the mineral line in order to mine from the blocked off minerals, which makes it really easy to snipe stray probes. Watch Bisu vs Pokju (I think it was Pokju) where bisu does his manner pylon --> offensive gates strategy and notice how easy it is for Bisu to constantly pick off probes because they keep running all the way around his gateways. And yes, people will call you funny names, which in itself makes it worth it
I think most people who act like it doesn't work just aren't very good at using it.
As Kwark said, it's a pylon; it gives supply. It's not as though it has no use at all. And since you're probably following it up with aggressive play (the only scenario I can think of where I wouldn't would be if I've already commited to tech and I happen to be able to seal off like 3 probes or something ridiculous like that), he'll be far too busy dealing your zealots to get rid of the pylon quickly.
If you're forced to cancel, he's probably commited several probes to destroying the pylon (or you fucked it up and his mining isn't suffering as badly as it should, but we'll ignore that for discussion purposes), in which case he's still losing more money than you.
It can be very worth it, just good players won't often let you get away with making them and getting 2 or more probes.
On September 11 2007 14:25 LonelyMargarita wrote: I'm really tired of people posting things that are absolutely incorrect, despite being trivial to check. If you're not sure about something, DON'T CORRECT SOMEONE. Either check for yourself, google it, or ask politely.
Canceling buildings refunds 75% (you lose 25%) Losing a building with units queued cancels the units being made and in queue (100% returned).
You lose 25 by canceling a pylon. You lose 13 for extractor trick. And on a related note, from all my extractor trick testing, it was never profitable: you lose the 13, you take the extractor drone off mining for a bit, and you delay your overlord to get a 10 drone early, which usually is one of the most inefficient drones (especially on 9 patch maps). Does anyone have any conclusive tests that show when extractor trick is useful? Maybe I'm just too slow to do it right, cause I've seen sAviOr do it.
This is easy to test.
First you need to calculate the amount the earlier drone will mine. To do this is easy on an average game. You just need to check how many mineral chunks he brought back before the regular drones (the drone that will come after the ol, which normally comes together with the early drone) could bring one chunk. I think the early drone can bring back around 2 chunks before the regular drone brings its first one. so 16 minerals.
and lost 13. But that is not all. The drone who went building a geyser probably lost a full mining turn, and therefore 8 minerals.
Thus, I dont think gas trick is effective. But if thats the case, you lost 5 minerals lol not much =p
On September 12 2007 02:56 pooper-scooper wrote: Don't forget, he ALSO blocks the direct route to mineral patches. You didn't take this into account.
Uhh... no, he blocks the outside so the probes can't get to nexus, so the probes are stuck between pylon and mineral patches...
I think he meant that since the pylon is now there its creating a longer mining path for the other probes around it.
No... the discussion earlier was about probes jumping OVER the pylon, if it was just a longer mining path: 1. No need to jump over 2. Huge waste of minerals
On September 12 2007 02:56 pooper-scooper wrote: Don't forget, he ALSO blocks the direct route to mineral patches. You didn't take this into account.
Uhh... no, he blocks the outside so the probes can't get to nexus, so the probes are stuck between pylon and mineral patches...
I think he meant that since the pylon is now there its creating a longer mining path for the other probes around it.
No... the discussion earlier was about probes jumping OVER the pylon, if it was just a longer mining path: 1. No need to jump over 2. Huge waste of minerals
i think XCetron interpreted pooper-scooper's post correctly...
On September 11 2007 14:23 SonuvBob wrote: Handy refund list: Upgrade cancel: 100%
Why do tosses fake air weapons instead of singularity in pvt then?
Micro, it's because air weapons only ties up 100/100 instead of 150/150.
and...
On September 11 2007 14:23 SonuvBob wrote: Handy refund list:
Building cancel: 75% Unit cancel: 100% Upgrade cancel: 100% Queued units when building is destroyed: 100% Queued upgrade when building is destroyed: 75%
Woah, never knew about qued upgrade when building destroyed. Thats really weird. I woudl've assumed you got back 100%
On September 11 2007 14:23 SonuvBob wrote: Handy refund list: Upgrade cancel: 100%
Why do tosses fake air weapons instead of singularity in pvt then?
Micro, it's because air weapons only ties up 100/100 instead of 150/150.
I was wondering... you delay the upgrade a moment to make it seem legit anyway. How do you use that extra money before you kill the scouting scv without it looking fishy?
and you put a Pylon at the Ps and where X is a mineral, would that actually slow down mining less than if you performed a regular manner Pylon? I remember in a PvP this occurred and it seriously seemed to slow the guy down.
On September 11 2007 14:23 SonuvBob wrote: Handy refund list: Upgrade cancel: 100%
Why do tosses fake air weapons instead of singularity in pvt then?
Micro, it's because air weapons only ties up 100/100 instead of 150/150.
I was wondering... you delay the upgrade a moment to make it seem legit anyway. How do you use that extra money before you kill the scouting scv without it looking fishy?
Have a pylon built in a corner of your base where you make your citadel or better yet have it some other random place so there's no chance of him scouting it.
On September 11 2007 13:09 BalloonFight wrote: Keep in mind that most players will get all probes out of the block but one, but that probably doesnt make a difference if you are still attacking it with the same amount of probes.
Why wouldnt it make a difference?
Because if its the same number of probes attacking it, that was tested by the OP, it doesnt matter if they are inside the manner pylon or it they are outside.
ts, you forgot that because of the manner pylon his probe production will be delayed, thus you will have more probes. more probes = more minerals = more zealots, etc.
There was a guy from duke university "Commentator" that posted a few videos in this thread about how to get probes out of manner pylon. I have them saved. (the links are dead though)
Anyways this is flawed. First of all even if you don't trap any probes it fucks up the return and gather, some probes may go behind the minerals to mine the ones that are blocked.
2nd, if he uses any probes to kill the pylon they waste time not mining as well.
3rd it depends on the map/position.
Here is another test to try.
Have yourself play out a build consisting of building only probes and pylons as fast as possible for 5 minutes.
Now have that same build manner pyloned to catch 3, 2, 1, and 0 probes.
See the difference at the end and compare them all.
(also any good scientist/experimenter will test the same thing a few times and take the average of that for final comparison.)
EDIT- Here is the gosu probe clip videos, I re-uploaded on youtube.
On September 11 2007 18:56 Piste wrote: Anyone still has that video which was posted by "Commentator" on the "Nal_Ra's anti manner pylon thread"? It wasn't available there anymore.
On September 12 2007 12:20 Equinox_kr wrote: A quick question: if the minerals are like so ...
...PP....... XXPPXXXXXX ...XX
and you put a Pylon at the Ps and where X is a mineral, would that actually slow down mining less than if you performed a regular manner Pylon? I remember in a PvP this occurred and it seriously seemed to slow the guy down.
Simple. This arrangement can't happen if the probes are all mining.
...PP....... XXPPXXXXXX ...XX
The probe in bold would not be in that location. For him to be there, the only mineral he can mine off of is the one below him and to the left on a diagonal, however, the probe to his left is already mining there. He will either stack up on the probe below him, or he will move to another patch.
The worst case scenario is:
...P..P....... XXPPXXXXXX ...XX
However, if that happens, just wait for the top right probe to take minerals back to the nexus and then put the pylon:
..P[ ]...... XXPPXXXXXX ...XX
You won't always get the chance to manner pylon. A good player may try to stop you by placing probes directly in your path. That said, if you get a chance to pull it off successfully, it can be very beneficial, especially if you play aggressively.
Yes, Pyloning those minerals will slow down mining, but I doubt it would be more than a manner Pylon. You've isolated the same minerals but haven't trapped anything.
On September 14 2007 05:41 Chill wrote: The Ps were a Pylon fool, not Probes.
Yes, Pyloning those minerals will slow down mining, but I doubt it would be more than a manner Pylon. You've isolated the same minerals but haven't trapped anything.
Erm... then what was the point of putting a pylon there?...
You want it so that you box probes in with minerals...
Pylons take up 4 square units of space (2 wide by 2 high). A mineral patch is 2 wide by 1 high. If you position a pylon there, you will block only 1 mineral patch unless the formation is different.