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Okay, I've been going through the Recommended Threads because I want to brush up on my Protoss basics.
About 2 gate, when I do it, I don't really see a point. So the build is 8pylon, 10gate, 12 gate. While the gates are being made, I make probes and then when my first gateway finishes, I make a zealot immediately. From here my supply is 15/17 and then 16/17 because of my probe, which is where I make my pylon.
So my one zealot is out and then my pylon is holding me back from making more. So there's like a long while until I can start producing more zealots so that 1 zealot I have is going to the Zerg's base but only to find 6 lings waiting for it so I send it back home. Here, I can make 2 more zealots now that my pylon is done. Now I send my 3 zealots over to attack but not there is a sunken and some more lings to attack my force so I retreat and the 2 gate becomes pointless.
That's how pretty much all my games go unless it is a 9 pool.
Now wouldn't 1 gate have been better as a whole even though the positions might be close (not including 12,3 LT)? I mean like after that second pylon is done, I'll just make one more zealot to hold my ramp and I would be ahead iin tech than if I went 2 gate.
I hope this makes sense or at least someone could explain to me what I'm doing wrong. I hope I'm not coming off as like a ranter or anything. I just want some insight because I don't have a training partner or anything. I'll be glad to post up a replay but I currently don't have one because this is my new computer and my old one is the one with all the replays.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
10/12 gate is a safe/semi-aggressive 2 gate you'll be doing mostly to hold versus 3 hatch ling (they break 1 gate ramps just by immense numbers) and to tech to citadel/fast lot timing attack.
try 9/10 gate/11 probe halt. It gets you 3 lots before your second pylon and actually allows super-aggressive play, but since you skip probes, you get behind on eco if it fails. However, if you do everything right, zerg will have to stop powering and your eco disadvantage will even out.
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
i thought 2 gate u can make 2nd pylon at 13
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BO for 2 gate hardcore zeal rush is 8 pylon, 9 gate, 10 gate, 13 pylon.... Your BO is too slow.
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Well, there are many different ways to do 2 gates, just like there are many different ways to do speedlings. The important thing is to make sure your follow up actions are consistant with your build order. If you are doing later gates, it's so your economy and tech come faster but it sacrifices the ability to hurt him early, so don't try to do that. Pretend you're going to do that, but don't actually do it. If you do really quick gates like 8/9 feel free to bring probes; you are already gambling so it makes sense to gamble heavily. On the other hand if you are doing 11/12 gate you are going to have alot of zealots in a bit; this is strong vs 12 pool or 9 pool, make sure to cut probes if you need to to make non stop zeals and enough pylons. In an econ / tech build you never cut probes, which is why you are less aggressive.
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You don't bother with 10/12 unless the map is sufficiently small. Anyway, 10/12 is what used to be super-standard play, the safe pseudo-pressure reactionary build. It's like what 2 rax academy tech to vessels (before expo) in TvZ used to be as well.
Anyway, you should be placing your 2nd pylon at 15 supply, not 16. Cut that probe for a little while to get the pylon faster. On maps with 9 minerals in the starting location, you should generally make probes up to 16 and 17 while the pylon is building to bolster your economy--you'll get up to 200 minerals just about as your pylon and 1st zealot finish so you can still make those 2nd/3rd zealots right afterwards. If you want a slightly harder rush or are on a map with 8 minerals (common), still build the 2nd pylon at 15 but cut all probes until your 2nd pylon finishes to start your second zeal before the 2nd pylon finishes (going from 15/17 to 17/17).
10/12 can pressure a close-by 12 hatch expo build pretty strongly (forcing lings and a sunken) and can force less greedy builds to get defense early too. The point is to force the Zerg to make as many sunkens and lings as you can without losing any zealots, thus stopping their powering and teching for a while while you're still powering and gassing after your 3rd or 5th zealot. Well, you can engage the enemy in favorable positions (fighting 8 lings with 3 zeals), but you should run away out of sunken range once a sunken finishes--you're probably not going to get to do much damage in terms of actually killing stuff.
Gas should never be gotten too late (after the 5th zeal, after the 3rd is usually better, if not after the 1st-2nd for misinformation if the Zerg drone scouted 2 gate and left immediately) unless you're doing incredible damage or you decide that you've scared the Zerg enough to go FE immediately afterward. The goal from there is hard tech to archives and expoing with cannons as soon as is safely possible. Hopefully you enter midgame with a bunch of zealots from early game and a slowed-down opponent.
The advantage of 10/12 is that it's safer than 1 gate tech and stops the Zerg from powering as much early on. In practice, though, especially on the larger maps, the Zerg isn't slowed down enough from the zealot pressure, so you're actually slowing yourself down more relatively by going 2 gate than by going FE.
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Great post, Myrmidon.
This is how all of my 10/12 games go:
8 pylon, 10/12 gates, 13 zeal, 15 pylon, 17 zeal, zeal
I start pressuring with my first zeal and scouting probe, pulling back when my next pair of zeals is coming. I keep zeals coming, and gas up when I have the minerals left over from zeals, pylons, probes, etc. I do what I can to guess what tech they're going, but recently I've had Z's hiding their hydra from me and intentionally showing me lings, so I cannon up my main/nat nexi, therefore putting me so far behind that it's practically impossible to win the game.
Now, the game branches in to one of a few ways:
1. They go hydra, and I guessed right (I've stopped trying to read Z without sair--they all trick me), and I do okay. I go into the mid-game with a good chance.
2. I guess hydra, and they go muta. I type out the moment I see muta.
3. They go muta, and I guess muta. I do alright, and get ready for the tech switch to hydra.
4. They tech really fast, keep me from expo'ing, and I lose.
I'm not going to say that 10/12 isn't viable anymore, but I certainly think that FE is just better. I think it's a shame, as I feel more comfortable just going 10/12, ironically.
I think it would be nice if some better P's could share their thoughts on 10/12.
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pretty much, myrmidon hit the point straight on. 2 gate is considered pretty much obsolete now, with the exception of proxy or an early aggressive build like 9/10. In any case, with a 2 gate zealot build, you DEFINTELY want to keep your zealots alive unless you know you can greatly damage the zerg, thus, breaking even or gaining an advantage over the zerg. Generealy, however, most protoss players don't 2 gate these days because normally zerg can easily hold back 2 gate zeals and get a head start on economy. But, I'm assuming you want to know more about 2 gate. Here are my thoughts:
9/10 gate:
Very poweful early zealot build. You can get in 3 zealots before making your 2nd pylon which will pressure zerg hardcore even on most far positions. The key here is timing and efficient micro. Watch pvz replays to get an idea of when and how fast lings arrive on the scene depending on the zerg's build order. You should have kept your scouter probe alive. If zerg did FE, use your scouter probe and zeal to prevent drones from building sunkens. I believe this is a crucial to how effective 2 gate is. If you are able to successfully prevent sunkens from being built, you should be able to take down some drones / lings, or in good scenario, the expo hatchery.
10/12 gate
The goal if this build is to conserve your economy while being aggressive. I believe this build is more of a proxy than anything these days. Basically, it follows the 9/10 gate build but on a slower, but steadier pace. Obviously, it's risky on maps with a ramp like luna or lost temple where there is a wide amount of space outside the ramp where lings can wreak havoc. However, on maps like Longinus II, with smart building placement, you can effectively reduce the walking distance between you and your opponent while closing off the amount of space for lings to potentially pose a threat later on.
Remember though, with either build keep in mind that your goal is to prevent zerg from powering as effectively as possible while minimizing casualties on your side. Make smart decisions based upon the distances between bases and information you gain by scouting. Pretty much, all we can do here at the strategy section is point you in the right direction. The rest is up to you.
EDIT: Also, regardless of what build you're using, learn the art of keeping your scouter probe alive as long as possible. The information you gain from this is VERY important. Depending on how well you scout with your 1st probe, you may not even have to go sair. In fact, you may survive just based upon knowing what the Zerg is going to do because you kept your scouter alive. KEEP YOUR SCOUTER PROBE ALIVE!!!
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I think the most important reason why 2 gate builds are outdated is simply because 3 zerglings > 1 zealot (assuming no micro on EITHER side) and so it's simply not cost effective to keep turning minerals into zealots which die too fast to zerglings, it is better to include archons in the mix really fast if you want offense, or get a better economy, or high templars fast, instead of lots of zealots. The exception is when you have the +1 upgrade, in which case zealots are very cost effective against zerglings.
One of the things a 2 gate build can do is force zerg to choose between powering and taking a mineral only expansion. I mean, most zerg are going 3 hatch before tech right, so if they want to take a natural, they have to pump a little less than 2 hatches worth to match your zealot production, but that means they cant drone. The most powerful form of 2 gate that I face is really 2 gate fast expo, after forcing zerg to sunken up and make lings protoss immediately about faces and expands. This undoubtably has huge vulnerabilities to 2 hatch tech but most zerg 3 hatch anyway.
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At least on LT if I'm going to 2 gate I prefer saving up ~275 minerals after 8/9 probes and then sending a probe to duel gate at 8 psi, near my choke -- then i scout with that same probe. Then I make another probe, and a 2nd pylon.
After that I make another probe or two and make sure to cut production enough to have 200 minerals when the gates finish. The result is a very very early rush of 2 zealots + scouting probe which can do major damage to many zerg players. Typically I'll follow it up with another 2 zealots, rallied to the zergs base. Often times you can kill the early zerglings / sunken attempts with the 2 zealots + probe and then when the other two zealots arrive you can sometimes block their ramp with those. This seems to work especially well against zergs who 12 hatch at their expansion.
After those 4 zealots though I will almost always gas up and start teching to temps and start thinking about a forge, while cutting zealot production.
This build obviously hurts econ early on but I find that it typically hurts zergs just as much.
I'm a big fan of pressuring zergs in general to put a check on their powering. I like to go heavy on zealots for quite a while in the early game and just line them up outside the zergs expansion -- faking an attack occasionally to make sure they feel threatened.
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United Arab Emirates5090 Posts
never do double gate anymore since friends have gotten better all round
with micro 3 lings > 1 zeal and the cost... well you do the math.
always FE or fast forge now or 1 gate tech
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Dont build the 16/17 probe. Just wait some secs and you're getting a 17/17 zealot.
Now ill keep reading, will edit later
Edit:
Ok, your problem is that you use this build no matter what the map is. Im Z and I find a lot more trouble against turtlers than rushers. As a matter of fact, since i have an aggresive play, i hate the defensive play =P, so If he goes agresive Im probably gonna do well.
So, First analyze if the map and the positions are worth of a 2 gate zeal rush.
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I havent played a game of starcraft in months, so I cant realy remember exactly what your doing wrong with your build but someone propably already told you.
However my advice to you, is if you have doubts about the effectiveness of double gate in pvz (some maps its realy good ie guilotine or 12-3 temple, some maps it sucks, IE into the darkness or even rush hour), try playing zerg for a while against good double gating protoss and you will begin to see the effects it has on a zerg economy.
Thats the kind of thing you dont always see from the protoss side, but it helps to have a good understanding of it.
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One more thing I would like to add (reading a small segment of the post above mine made me think about this), is that you should tailor your play style to what you know about the person you are playing. Agressive zerg seem hard to most begining protoss, however safe play is the ultimate answer to this kind of a zerg, and the opposite is true for a macro/defensive zerg. Try to play safe against blackman and you will be outmacro'ed in a heartbeat. However if you try to take 2 expoes without substantial defense against julyzerg, its gg. The same thing applies to your opening strategies.
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On February 20 2007 07:10 dream-_- wrote: One more thing I would like to add (reading a small segment of the post above mine made me think about this), is that you should tailor your play style to what you know about the person you are playing. Agressive zerg seem hard to most begining protoss, however safe play is the ultimate answer to this kind of a zerg, and the opposite is true for a macro/defensive zerg. Try to play safe against blackman and you will be outmacro'ed in a heartbeat. However if you try to take 2 expoes without substantial defense against julyzerg, its gg. The same thing applies to your opening strategies.
Julyzerg is a bit of an extreme example since regardless of what strategy you use, chances are, you'll simply get outplayed in the end.
Also, 2-gate isn't necessarily a horrid build; you just gotta know what you're doing with it. A large portion of it comes down to what style zerg you're gaming against.
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I dont know why so much people here are saying 10/12 is obsolete. This is bulllshit. Its still perfectly viable nowadays, especially if you expand early without losing to many zlots. The goal of this is to put pressure on the zerg, basically force him to triple sunk and keep him few drones. Then you whore probe same time and expand/forge/core at around 40 pop.
The advantage of this build compared to the FE is that zerg has lower eco and cant double expand early. You re lower on tech though, and more vulnerable to quick tech by the z.
I remember i saw some time ago some F91 vs PJ bo5 where the later clearly (and easily) win two rounds going this bo.
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10/12 at the spot you would usually place your cannons for a FE into FE is a really good strategy, actually. You can start it as a semi-proxy rush and turn it into FE without the need for cannons, even if you scout hydras. Mons from 88) used this build against some really good players and wiped them with it.
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United States20661 Posts
On February 21 2007 22:14 5HITCOMBO wrote: 10/12 at the spot you would usually place your cannons for a FE into FE is a really good strategy, actually. You can start it as a semi-proxy rush and turn it into FE without the need for cannons, even if you scout hydras. Mons from 88) used this build against some really good players and wiped them with it.
This build seems to be quite popular on Req/RLT from what I've seen. The first 2 pro PvZ broadcasted on RLT used 2gate prox into FE, IIRC.
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Canada7170 Posts
I thought 9/10 gate was 7 pylon, no? Someone correct me or confirm.
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Actually, when people do proxy gate at choke, I think they usually do earlier gates than 10/12. 9/10 or something is more common--there's no reason to be half-hearted about getting turbo zealots in the Zerg's face.
You saw a lot of proxy 2-gate in front of the Azalea min-only too. It's just those maps where the proxy gates can block the choke well.
2 gate in base is reserved for maps like Cultivation Period.
edit: 9/10 is most definitely 8 pylon.
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Russian Federation987 Posts
I think 2 gates is only viable in case of 9/10 gates to kill 12 expo with hardcore zeal+probe rush or to block his ramp or to make him build 2-3 sunkens that will delay his 3rd hatch very much. In all other cases you must go either 1 gate tech or FE. In this case u must scout good with your first probe if u don't want to die from some 3 hatch lings push or some fast hydra push.
10/12 gates in my opinion delays your tech, takes no expo and cannot really hurt zerg. So it's useless and you won't see it in games of korean protosses such as Nal_ra, Free, Daezang and others.
Use FE or 1 gate tech and train your probe micro on his base and use every possibility to know what's he doing such as counting his expo drones or may be sacrificing your zealot to pass through his sunken with your probe..
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proxy 2 gate is good :D you don't tech super fast yourself but if you make a gas at around ur 4th or 5th zealot take a look at zerg! You could stream zlot off 2 gate and add in cybre already and he hasn't even taken his gas yet if you micro well.
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I guess 2 hatch spire - 3 hatch before muta muta harass or quick lurk drop is probably zerg's best counter, assuming protoss expands? Followed up with taking 2 expos and pumping 4 base zerg ultraling/defiler for swarm.
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Russian Federation987 Posts
On February 22 2007 01:06 evanthebouncy~ wrote: proxy 2 gate is good :D you don't tech super fast yourself but if you make a gas at around ur 4th or 5th zealot take a look at zerg! You could stream zlot off 2 gate and add in cybre already and he hasn't even taken his gas yet if you micro well. What about the time your proxy gates will be eaten by speedlings?
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On February 22 2007 01:13 Organ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2007 01:06 evanthebouncy~ wrote: proxy 2 gate is good :D you don't tech super fast yourself but if you make a gas at around ur 4th or 5th zealot take a look at zerg! You could stream zlot off 2 gate and add in cybre already and he hasn't even taken his gas yet if you micro well. What about the time your proxy gates will be eaten by speedlings? Scout better I guess ~_~ I mean when you see ling speed it's very likely they'll do some sort of ling pressure so pull back and don't get too brave. Keep zloting and hold tech for abit.
And don't get too happy w/ ur slow lots! I lost sooo many games to speed hydra cuz I forgot to tech haha :D
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On February 22 2007 01:13 Organ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2007 01:06 evanthebouncy~ wrote: proxy 2 gate is good :D you don't tech super fast yourself but if you make a gas at around ur 4th or 5th zealot take a look at zerg! You could stream zlot off 2 gate and add in cybre already and he hasn't even taken his gas yet if you micro well. What about the time your proxy gates will be eaten by speedlings? As long as you take out the expo, you're good even if you do lose the proxy.
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Gate 9/10 is WAYYY underestimated imo. Every Z player now tends to put their 2nd hatch right in their expand. In small map with this strat, you'd have like 80% win. Just bring 1 or 2 probe along with your zealot and it'll be really hard to stop it. That will force the z to make 1 or 2 sunk + probably a few drone lost. And then you'll have a slight advantage over him because your probe count will remain the same if not more.
Edit : my god i need to stop thinking about others things while writting because it had many missed words...
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recently, i see 9/9 gate very often, in both korean leagues and replays. since i'm executing this bo in every single battle.net game i'm winning almost everytime (in every MU)
8 pylon 9 gate 9 gate ...probes... 11 zealot 13 pylon 15 zealot 17 zealot ...some probes... etc
what about this bo? some critiques and comparisons are welcome ^^
##edit## once, i compared this bo with the 9/10 gates. the second gates finishes about 100-150 hp later.
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its not THE build
its YOUR build thats messed up
like a bunch of people said =O
just dont build probe at 15, build another zeal and pylon asap
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u gotta build a pylon earlier, u cant expect to win by always making a pylon when it tells u to
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no 9/10 gate is 8 pylon of course... why would it be 7 lol... ummm for 2 gate its better to do a 9/10 gate 10/12 gate is more of a conservative build that can be used to pressure a zerg but isn't really a build to do serious damage from a x2 gate you can either expand or tech, to avoid a longer wait pylon @15...
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Canada7170 Posts
On February 22 2007 13:32 MyTHicaL wrote: no 9/10 gate is 8 pylon of course... why would it be 7 lol...
I saw it in that thread that links to popular bo's... the one that was copied onto wiki, that's all. I alwasy 7 pylon-ed because immediately after the pylon finishes, you have 150 mins and the gateway can be thrown down right away. I only use it in short distance maps though.
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well honestly i believe most zerg players wont attack you if they see the double gateway with 6 lings i think u should save that first zealot and go with the 13 zealot rush (is it 13?) that kills if u do +1 and speed lots considering zerg would need 52 lings to match that or a couple of sunkens usually i think people attack the expo first but the main is usually less defended then the expo where u must make 2 defense like the 12 spot on lt yea idk much bout toss considering mi zvp is terrible
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On February 22 2007 16:29 JRIGGED wrote: yea idk much bout toss considering mi zvp is terrible That was your only correct statement.
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On February 21 2007 22:35 mikeymoo wrote: I thought 9/10 gate was 7 pylon, no? Someone correct me or confirm. No, its not.
its regular 8 pylon. Its a low econ built since youre cutting down on probes to get a gate at 9, and another at 10, and cutting even further to allow 6 supply to make the 3 zealots. 11 probe halt, 13 pylon.
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Oh wow. This is news to me (the whole 9/10 gateway) because the way I learned is to keep making probes and stuff and hearing that you can cut probe production is like wow... I ahve another question now.
Like on LT, how am I to go and scout to decide which build to go with? Like before I would scout across map unless I'm at 12 or 3. If I see Zerg across the map from me, I would go 1 gate and if he isn't, I'll go 2 gate because my gate was at 10 so it'll be along the path of both builds. However, with a gate at 9, I won't be able to know where they are until a little later. So do I just go 1 gate but build a gate at 9 instead of 10?
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Its the typical economy vs potential ____ (in this case info). Guaranteed the eco if you go off 9 rather then 8, but not guaranteed the info if you go off of 8. But you actually are guaranteed one scouting positions info, which is what your plan revolves around. Whats the diff like 16mins? So, the vast majority of people scout off of 9 when going 9/10 due to eco, and I venture that they have basically committed to going 9/10 anyway. If you find the other way more worthwhile, as it allows you to go though with your cross map scouting plan, then by all means do so, but realize the drawbacks which are less mins and ever so slightly later gate likely. I'd venture that the majority of people scout closest base by land first however. So, now I'd suggest considering the pros and con of each method of scouting, and your plan to go 1 or 2gate if far/close.
B.O. for 9/10: 8p, 9gate-scout, 10gate, 11z, 13p, 13z, 15z, probe, 18z, 20z, 22p, probe, then zeals or assim. Many variations of course, but I would venture that this is the most popular.
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i recommend 9/10 gate over 10/12
brief reasoning behind 2gate: you force your opponent to defend from the rush w/ sunkens + lings. Essentially, your armies stay about equal in size early on, except that you get a massive probe advantage since he couldn't spend time making drones. (Therefore, he will obviously have delayed/less effective 3hatch/lair if he has a low drone count)
therefore, vs good zergs, they will stop the 10/12 rush fairly easily, and then have a large opportunity to make drones, negating the general effectiveness of the 2gate
recommended: Watch Free vs July, game 1 of MBC vs Hanbit proleague playoffs (gogo torrent tracker). This is an excellent 2gate example. For a moment ignore the fact that Free was able to walk into July's main and pay more attention to the fact that Free has a huge probe advantage while july has to make tons of lings and poorly placed sunkens
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the days of 7 pylon are over man 8pylon 9/10 or dual 9 gate bring 4-5 probes is how its done
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If you are going for an econ build it makes more sense to sair/dt or fast expand; the point of going 2 gate is to hurt / win the game with the rush scouted after he expos, not to build your economy, so make the gates early and cut probes so you have non stop zealot production. Once he starts building sunkens then make sure to tech or expo and keep economy non stop, there's no point pressuring a zerg who has sunkens it will probably end up with you losing all your zealots and map control. You're going to need those zealots for when he tries to expand to a mineral only. Since you've been pumping 2 gate zeals he will need muta or lurker tech to expo, which means he can't expo until tech and you've got the upper hand. Unless he kills all your zealots with speedlings ;0 That's why you get +1!
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I think that 2gating is onlu usefull if the zerg screws up. If tge zerg has perfect micro and scouting thereøs noway to finiah them of with iy. But it will still force them to build lings instead of drones, which can be a pain in the ass.
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2 gate is not supposed to kill the zerg wtf -_-.
A well performed 2 gate(10/12) without having to pull any probes will force any zerg that fast expoes to make at least 8 lings instead of drones and a sunken, that means that the zerg wont be able to make his 3rd hatchery as soon as he would normally be able vs a 1 gate gas build or fast expo, that means he wont be able to whore drones as much, while you were able to mantain CONSTANT probe production which will give you an edge in economy.
If he wasnt planning on making a 3rd hatch based build, that also means he wont be able to take his gas so soon.
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^Ignorant question, but from your description 2gating really gives you a huge edge whether it works well or not. Why doesn't everyone 2gate?
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Huh? I said a 10/12 2 gate should give you some edge in economy if performed well -.-
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2 gate only works in certain positions and on certain maps SteelString, its not really viable to 2 gate cross position because of the distance. 1 gate zeal harass is viable in my opinion for that and if you want to get a slightly bigger edge go 1 gate harass into forge/expo. Thats what I like to do when possible but my PvZ isn't the best.
Learning88 if you really want to get a really good answer PM FrozenArbiter, he should be able to answer it =].
1 last thing, 1 gate Corsair is usually used to allow you to expo and get some ovie + drone kills. Most builds in PvZ lead up to quick expo not instakill. Reaver drop or fast speed zeals are the only ones I can think of that are intended to make the Zerg tap out. Reaver can even be more hurting economy than winning, but most of the fast reaver games I've seen ended very quickly.
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Anyone tried 7 pylon 7/7 gate/gate? hahaha I'll give it a shot it sounds cool ^_^ Probably kills my econ though.
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On February 24 2007 18:26 evanthebouncy~ wrote: Anyone tried 7 pylon 7/7 gate/gate? hahaha I'll give it a shot it sounds cool ^_^ Probably kills my econ though.
You won't have enough probes to sustain 2 gates methinks.
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might as well proxy the 2 gate and send 4-6 probes w/..
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Helloz! So Today I decided to try 2 gates again after doing FE for almost a year and I failed so hard T_T I think zerg scouted me so he went for a 9 hatch 8 pool which means my proxy 9/10 was fairly useless. I screwed up for not blocking the ramp with zealots so lings got into my base and it's pretty GG after that (some horrible horrible micros afterwards). SO question is how to react to zerg if he scouts you? It seems like his econ wasn't too bright after made that many lings maybe I should just block ramp/defend while forge expand? Cheerios' Rep: http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=33070
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United States40777 Posts
These days 2 gate is primarily a fast expand build and should be used as such. If you tech switch it leaves you a minute or so behind 1 gate gas and gives the zerg so much breathing space that they get fat and swollen with extra drones. Most zerg will adopt the 6 ling plus sunken approach so just keep probe production constant, hold the zealots at 3 and expand. Then return to massing zealots and start very slowly teching without a worry. When they scout your expo (we must assume a good z will) they will either try some kind of massling break, which constant zee production from 2 gates can easily handle, an overdroning/unholdable expo, which constant zee production from 2 gates can crush, or a hydra timing attack which tbh fucks you up. Speedlings are a problem. They give total map control to the zerg if you have slowzeals because you cannot split your force or risk it being overwhelmed without a good fight but if you commit to any field then your nat is left very vulnerable. You can negate this by cannoning heavily as you move out and having probe scouts placed to spot the allin so your probes can block it. Then sending 14 or so zealots into his nat should close the game because Z for some reason assume Protoss can't power probes and make constant zealots. Once you get the hang of hydra timing you can attack their nat before the switch is complete with good results (and a lot of insurance cannons at your nat).
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United States40777 Posts
Ok. That replay was kind of painful. Make the gates at the top of the ramp. A lot of your early game options come from the fact that you can exercise pressure on the zerg and the speedlings = map control factor is entirely negated by the ramp. You saw it that game. You couldn't do anything because he had speedlings and you would lose wherever your zealots weren't. Placing 2 gates outside the ramp means he can now threaten both your production and your mineral line, and can threaten them independently. I think he did a standard 12 hatch 11 pool actually, which makes it remarkable how badly you failed. You need to be on the offensive more. Right at the start his army cannot fight yours, what it can do is run through and kill 2/3 of your probes. What you did was chase his lings around with your zealots as your production twindled to nothing whereas he ran around with his lings while maintaining constant production. And then suddenly he had more than you. You cannot waste time chasing lings and you shouldn't need to. Don't let them in your base.
Ok, I've checked the specific timing. It looked like a 12 hatch 11 pool but had the timing of a 9 hatch 9 pool. Any guesses why? Any at all? + Show Spoiler +He was hacking lol. He suddenly gained 300 minerals as his 2nd overlord was finishing. That'd probably be why he scouted your proxy so fast. Playing on icc should solve your specific problem.
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On April 18 2008 18:13 Kwark wrote: These days 2 gate is primarily a fast expand build and should be used as such. If you tech switch it leaves you a minute or so behind 1 gate gas and gives the zerg so much breathing space that they get fat and swollen with extra drones. Most zerg will adopt the 6 ling plus sunken approach so just keep probe production constant, hold the zealots at 3 and expand. Then return to massing zealots and start very slowly teching without a worry. When they scout your expo (we must assume a good z will) they will either try some kind of massling break, which constant zee production from 2 gates can easily handle, an overdroning/unholdable expo, which constant zee production from 2 gates can crush, or a hydra timing attack which tbh fucks you up. Speedlings are a problem. They give total map control to the zerg if you have slowzeals because you cannot split your force or risk it being overwhelmed without a good fight but if you commit to any field then your nat is left very vulnerable. You can negate this by cannoning heavily as you move out and having probe scouts placed to spot the allin so your probes can block it. Then sending 14 or so zealots into his nat should close the game because Z for some reason assume Protoss can't power probes and make constant zealots. Once you get the hang of hydra timing you can attack their nat before the switch is complete with good results (and a lot of insurance cannons at your nat).
going 2 gate into tech is still really good now-a-days it just takes some practice
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I disagree heavily with Kwark. Two gate into a heavier zeal/slower tech kind of build can be very strong. If you are going to do this sort of build 10/12 is a much better idea because when you play properly with heavy zealot numbers and an aggressive style play his drone count will suffer like woah and his 3rd base will be completly and utterly denied. With 10/12 your probe count will be huge and it allows you to expand later. With Zerg at only two bases I personally prefer going 2 zeals into sair/temp tech. As long as you see what Z is doing you wont be beat by his lair tech and then you can expand + cannon and be in the lead with = expansions and booming probes. I prefer this style of play to zeal into FE. I've just found way too many problematic zergs doing this kind of build and being left with nothing but a big zeal number and some cannons while you wait on tech is never fun =\.
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Hey, I'm a C- toss player with average 140 apm and I just lost this game to a 338 apm zerg.
http://www.4shared.com/file/117844323/f55bb4d8/PvZ132_338.html
Replay summary: I go 2gate and prepare for speedlot timing attack, he completely stops it. I don't want to get sairs because I know I don't have the apm to micro them efficiently so I go temp. But at this time I don't know what tech he's choosing so I just cannon everything. He then retaliates with a lurker contain just as im getting my nat expo up. I knew I needed obs but I didn't have the gas to get both obs and temp/storm, so I chose to get temp, but his lurks came too early for me to do anything.
Any input on what I should have done?
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On July 14 2009 04:17 attacknme wrote:Hey, I'm a C- toss player with average 140 apm and I just lost this game to a 338 apm zerg. http://www.4shared.com/file/117844323/f55bb4d8/PvZ132_338.htmlReplay summary: I go 2gate and prepare for speedlot timing attack, he completely stops it. I don't want to get sairs because I know I don't have the apm to micro them efficiently so I go temp. But at this time I don't know what tech he's choosing so I just cannon everything. He then retaliates with a lurker contain just as im getting my nat expo up. I knew I needed obs but I didn't have the gas to get both obs and temp/storm, so I chose to get temp, but his lurks came too early for me to do anything. Any input on what I should have done?
My advice is that you remake this thread adding what you thought you could do better. Also, theres no need to micro corsairs, just make a single one and if youre that slow, queue it to scout his bases in multiple locations and then watch his buildings from the fog of war.
Also, this thread is about stopping 2 gateway early agression from the zergs point.
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I thought 9/10 gate was 7 pylon, no? Someone correct me or confirm.
7 pylon will finish before you have 150 minerals for a gateway at 9, while 8 pylon finishes about perfectly in my experience.
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WOW, most constructive thread ty!
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most constructive bump
see those old post things? it means not to bump old threads like this one unless you have something to add
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On October 02 2009 11:49 Tazan_0 wrote: WOW, most constructive thread ty!
Too bad it's so old that most of the strategies discussed are outdated.
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Non-proxied 2gate is a viable alternative to forge FE iff the map is small, as it relies on the ability to apply pressure with slow zealots in order to hinder the zerg's economy. How aggressive a 2gate you employ determines how much hindrance is necessary (up to breaking the nat), but not the basic concept. (FE and 1gate tech builds are less affected by map distance, because they generally wait for fast units before threatening the Zerg.)
Are we agreed on this?
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Nowadays, with FE being undoubtedly the norm in PvZ, many zergs have a great amount of trouble adapting to an aggressive build such as a 9/9, 9/10, 10/11, so it can be a very good idea to throw in a 2gate rush now and again.
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