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Northern Ireland20877 Posts
On May 10 2024 11:02 goldensail wrote: Btw since many of the latest posts are about "talent" let me add to this topic.
I think most of us can agree that talent is an illusive, subjective concept. For me, it comes down to "Who took this game to new heights? Who did things I've never seen before? Who had the wow factor?".
I won't go into who is "most" talented, or whether Maru is as talented as Flash, but I do think it'll be difficult to argue in good faith that Maru didn't shine in these criteria. Maru showed us since his early years that Terran could be played like Zerg, that it can be an offensive race, that it's possible to mirco units like THAT, that you can claw back against top tier competitors when you're down 60 supply...and he has pretty consistently exceled through the darkest days for Terran.
Does Serral give me that feeling? No. Serral optimizes his builds and is a very balanced player, but he follows a script and he executes very well.
I know if you're a Serral fan you probably find his play the most exciting ever, so I'm merely presenting my case - I'm too old to think I can convince others with different opinion.
I'll leave you with one question: in soccer I've heard people call Messi the artist for his brilliance and Ronaldo the engineer for his efficiency (no offense to Ronaldo, as I'm actually a bigger fan of the latter) - between Maru and Serral, who would be the artist, and who the engineer? It’s not a bad comparison but ultimately they have a didn’t set of tools to play with. Flashy micro feats impress many more than basically the entirety of the other skills needed in the game, hence why I think this perception that Terran is the most demanding race on skill is so pervasive (and totally not annoying ).
The Messi artist/Ronaldo engineer comparison exists because folks think Messi was just prenaturally gifted and Ronaldo had to work his ass off. I don’t think that perception is particularly accurate but if we were to go with it as a comparison, if anything Serral is the Messi, not Maru. As the bloke who got to that level doing his own thing rather than hothoused via team houses
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France12577 Posts
The difficulty of Terran in terms of mechanics is not micro per se, but rather the macro is more demanding in terms of inputs / attention than the other races, yet the micro is still demanding, so it’s very difficult to do properly especially when playing bio.
It has been debated ad nauseam though, but it doesn’t really matter in the goat debate which race has been more difficult over the years / patches
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On March 19 2024 09:12 Kitai wrote:Ok, someone's gotta do it at this point. The list is done, everyone has read the articles and listened to the forum arguments. So here we go! Poll: Who do you think the SC2 GOAT is?(Vote): Maru (Vote): Serral (Vote): Rogue (Vote): Other
Because I don't want to keep posting GOAT stuff in the GSL thread, just going to point out that it's pretty clear the majority of the community thinks Serral is the GOAT. Which is completely fine because it's a legitimate take. And although this poll says 60%, I think it's pretty safe to say that we at tl.net are going to skew more korean-focused than the community overall. And this poll was in the middle of the thread, so like the real die-hard tl.neters. The real percentage is likely at least 70% and possibly significantly higher.
I mean this was a controversial post for a reason. And Miz himself said he kept going back and forth on it.
Separately, do we know what koreans think on the GOAT debate? Does it tend to roughly match the foreign community, are they more Maru focused, or even something else?
Miz, I remember you said you asked soO about who the GOAT was - what did he say? Sorry if you posted it before it's a long thread now.
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France12577 Posts
Afaik soO thought it was Serral. Some users pointed out that soO only met Serral the final product while he played Maru for basically their entire common sc2 career.
Edit: found the post https://tl.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=28177446 soO apparently thought Serral was harder to play against Serral than Maru. No mention of goat or not goat though?
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On May 11 2024 12:22 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2024 09:12 Kitai wrote:Ok, someone's gotta do it at this point. The list is done, everyone has read the articles and listened to the forum arguments. So here we go! Poll: Who do you think the SC2 GOAT is?(Vote): Maru (Vote): Serral (Vote): Rogue (Vote): Other
Because I don't want to keep posting GOAT stuff in the GSL thread, just going to point out that it's pretty clear the majority of the community thinks Serral is the GOAT. Which is completely fine because it's a legitimate take. And although this poll says 60%, I think it's pretty safe to say that we at tl.net are going to skew more korean-focused than the community overall. And this poll was in the middle of the thread, so like the real die-hard tl.neters. The real percentage is likely at least 70% and possibly significantly higher. I mean this was a controversial post for a reason. And Miz himself said he kept going back and forth on it. Separately, do we know what koreans think on the GOAT debate? Does it tend to roughly match the foreign community, are they more Maru focused, or even something else? Miz, I remember you said you asked soO about who the GOAT was - what did he say? Sorry if you posted it before it's a long thread now. I remember at gamers8 they had a section where they asked the players who they think the Goat is and while the foreigners all said Serral the koreans were pretty much 50/50 between Serral and Maru.
Also to your point that the tl community is more korean favored I might add that the general foreign community is definitely more likely to be foreigner biased due to casters always hyping them up etc. Also not really an objective take. It's like asking portuguese people who they think the football Goat is and taking that as proof CR7 is above Messi
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On May 11 2024 14:43 Poopi wrote:Afaik soO thought it was Serral. Some users pointed out that soO only met Serral the final product while he played Maru for basically their entire common sc2 career.Edit: found the post https://tl.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=28177446soO apparently thought Serral was harder to play against Serral than Maru. No mention of goat or not goat though? Yeah that probably played a role in his assessment. Judging only results from 2018 on he's 1-10 in series against Maru (the win being a bo1 in teamleague) and 3-8 vs Serral (2 of those wins are bo1s in teamleagues). But he was doing pretty well against Maru before that
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On May 11 2024 12:22 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2024 09:12 Kitai wrote:Ok, someone's gotta do it at this point. The list is done, everyone has read the articles and listened to the forum arguments. So here we go! Poll: Who do you think the SC2 GOAT is?(Vote): Maru (Vote): Serral (Vote): Rogue (Vote): Other
Because I don't want to keep posting GOAT stuff in the GSL thread, just going to point out that it's pretty clear the majority of the community thinks Serral is the GOAT. Which is completely fine because it's a legitimate take. And although this poll says 60%, I think it's pretty safe to say that we at tl.net are going to skew more korean-focused than the community overall. And this poll was in the middle of the thread, so like the real die-hard tl.neters. The real percentage is likely at least 70% and possibly significantly higher. I mean this was a controversial post for a reason. And Miz himself said he kept going back and forth on it. Separately, do we know what koreans think on the GOAT debate? Does it tend to roughly match the foreign community, are they more Maru focused, or even something else? Miz, I remember you said you asked soO about who the GOAT was - what did he say? Sorry if you posted it before it's a long thread now.
Interesting. I wish there were an official poll like this so we can observe how the community sentiment has evolved over the history of the game.
I do want to point out that this measures sentiment, which is heavily influenced by recent results, and in turn, game balance.
I also find it interesting that Rogue receives so few votes. In a post match interview of Maru ('22 ish), PiG provocatively asked "recently Rogue said he's the GOAT, what do you think?" to which Maru answered "yeah he's still the GOAT since he won so many titles". Of course Maru might be a bit biased since they were teammates at Jin Air and Maru had always held Rogue in high regard. Now it seems people have all but forgotten him.
Edit: I forgot to mention - this poll is done on an English forum, where I suspect readership is primarily EU/Americas based (i.e. more "foreigners"). Would it generate similar results if the poll had more representation from Korea, China etc.? Also are there more Zergs voting for Serral vs. Terran voting for Maru and vice versa? I don't purport to know the answer but food for thought.
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Much of the community was already calling Serral the goat in 2019. He was objectively not the goat at that point. There is a clear bias towards him that continues to be true to this day even though he has a strong argument now. Point being I don't think overall fan sentiment can be taken seriously when it's definitely motivated by him being the first non Korean to become the best in the world along with the way casters used to over hype him.
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