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On March 08 2024 13:05 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 12:08 Turbovolver wrote: I know I also made a snarky post like this one kinda recently but oh look, all the people who were assuring us Terran was doomed because something stupid and un-fun got nerfed (mass ghost snipe turtling) are back to again assure us that Terran is doomed because something stupid and un-fun got nerfed.
If Terran needs buffs after the stupidity that is Widow Mines took a hit, so be it, give them some buffs. I must say decreasing the upgrade costs feels minor to me but those also tend to feel more minor than they really are, and I'm certainly not going to claim the expertise necessary to judge that.
Call it reddit-tier analysis if you wish, but Terran victories should not be dependent on something so swingy. Mines are honestly bad enough in Brood War, I have no idea why they ever needed the ability to "explode" multiple times and to be moved and to be transported in medivacs. Disruptors and banelings took their turns to get a tap-down, now Widow Mines get the same. Funny how unfun Zerg bullshit always flies under the radar or gets extremely minor nerfs. Mass queen turtling? Still the standard. Insta-losing to a 75/75 nydus in your main. Totally fine apparently. Instant burrow lurkers? A .2 second burrow time increase will fix that! Vipers abducting units at 9 range for 75 energy (an effective instant kill most of the time). Oh, we'll add a .5 second delay _after_ the abduct, so it's harder for the viper to delete two units at the same time, instead of just one. Nydus Worms are stupid and if they got further nerfed I would not complain. That is a great example of game-ending damage being too easy to deal, and especially so pre-nerf. If a bunch of people whined and pretended Zerg was doomed because Nydus was nerfed I'm sure that would troll me into actually posting, too.
Your other examples don't seem anywhere near as egregious to me. People aren't regularly insta-losing their whole mineral line in early game to Vipers. Nor is "Viper turtling" a thing I've ever seen, but who knows what's happening on the ladder (not me!). As for lurkers, they take more than a second to burrow after upgrade, and yet your post pretends it's "instant" + 0.2. Also the change in the patch was actually +0.36 seconds. Please be honest.
That said, if lurker drops were a standard opening that can be transitioned out of and also just occasionally won the game by deleting mineral lines at the pro level, that would be shitty and I'd want to see it gone too.
Queens are a defensive unit, and when they started getting used offensively in cheeses they were soon nerfed. That is different to the turtling I am talking about, where one builds up an unstoppable 200/200 army on a comparatively small number of bases and then slowly wins the game through inevitability. The latter is unfun. The former can be unfun if a race becomes impossible to attack into and everything is a stalemate, but that's not what I've seen in progames at least. In TvZ progames it's the T turtling if anyone is.
That said, I do think Queens are a bit stupid. One can see the patch history of them being upgraded from macro units to defensive terrors coming about in response to other stupidity, like the Banshee. Starcraft was smart enough not to give the cloaking fliers much damage against ground, so they couldn't easily fly in and kill a ton of workers in seconds. Then SC2 designers go and unlearn that lesson just to do something different in the sequel and also make hydras slower to get. So now here we are, lol
The baneling nerf is the only real, consequential nerf that Zerg has taken in ages that wasn't compensated for by some other change, and half of that nerf was just reverting the previous HP buff that banelings never should have gotten in the first place. I'm not here to talk about how many nerfs/buffs Terran gets versus how many Zerg gets. I have a Zerg icon because I liked to play them in Brood War, and for SC2 I only watch the pro scene and if anything my favourite race is Protoss. I've already said if Terran needs buffs to compensate for Widow Mines, they should have them. The reason I mentioned Banelings and Disruptors was because they could also do game-ending damage too easily, and so were nerfed. Just like Widow Mines should be, and apparently finally will be.
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Nydus Worms are stupid and if they got further nerfed I would not complain. That is a great example of game-ending damage being too easy to deal, and especially so pre-nerf. If a bunch of people whined and pretended Zerg was doomed because Nydus was nerfed I'm sure that would troll me into actually posting, too.
And yet here we are, with Nyduses still being dumb and still winning games.
Your other examples don't seem anywhere near as egregious to me. People aren't regularly insta-losing their whole mineral line in early game to Vipers.
You complained about "stupid and un-fun" mechanics, where the viper is a prime example of something stupid and unfun, where both the cost and the risk/reward for the attacker is hugely out of whack, and the only counter-play is to deny the viper (a fast flying unit, mind you) before it gets in range. Watching even the best Protosses getting their motherships abducted over and over again because they aren't babysitting their army 100% of time is peak game design I guess.
Nor is "Viper turtling" a thing I've ever seen, but who knows what's happening on the ladder (not me!).
Since I never mentioned "viper turtling" I have no idea why you brought this up. But while we're talking about the viper, not only is abduct dumb, but the viper inherently promotes deathball play (since it doesn't operate effectively without a critical mass of supporting units).
As for lurkers, they take more than a second to burrow after upgrade, and yet your post pretends it's "instant" + 0.2. Also the change in the patch was actually +0.36 seconds. Please be honest.
Compared to any other siege unit, lurkers burrow instantly. A siege tank or a liberator takes 2.89 seconds to siege. A lurker, a unit that does splash damage in a 10 range line, burrows as fast as a widow mine. For a long time you'd literally see Zerg players run up and bury their lurkers in their opponent's faces as a viable tactic, and this continued after the burrow nerf.
How is this an example of a healthy interaction?
Queens are a defensive unit, and when they started getting used offensively in cheeses they were soon nerfed. That is different to the turtling I am talking about, where one builds up an unstoppable 200/200 army on a comparatively small number of bases and then slowly wins the game through inevitability. The latter is unfun. The former can be unfun if a race becomes impossible to attack into and everything is a stalemate, but that's not what I've seen in progames at least. In TvZ progames it's the T turtling if anyone is.
Queens are stupid because they deny 90% of early game interactions that aren't all-ins, and the answer to any early game problem for the Zerg is almost always more queens. And yet this festering sore is still permitted to stay in the game.
You complain about volatile, game ending damage, when Zerg is by far the race that benefits the most from momentary lapses of attention. Banelings, fungals, neurals, nyduses, even simple ling run-bys can and do win games when someone leaves their wall open (something that happens routinely even at the highest levels of play).
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Ok i tried the new Cyclone out, I actually love the changes, and the game feel!
Previously it was really clunky and hard to stutter step with, probably cus of the turret turn speed and damage point. Perhaps these remained the same from the previous Cyclone which fired slower, and it worked for that but needed to be sped up to match the new Cyclone's attack rate, which the Balance Council has now done.
Now it feels like the Cyclone has a normal attack and the Lock-On is special, rather than the Lock-On being the normal attack and you never wanting to use the normal attack lol.
It feels really satisfying to have the rhythm and reward of Lock-On now with its cooldown!! And before it felt like too much paper weight for the size and visual design of the unit, now it feels right.
It's cool that the early game strength in a straight up fight will be about the same, while the +2 damage per upgrade helps scaling better into the lategame so that mech has a stronger lategame to make up for its weaker earlygame. +2 instead of +1 feels pretty huge, by the time you get to +3 attack, the fully upgraded dps is the same as before when it fired faster with only +1 damage per upgrade, but now you get that +20 HP too, which makes it so much better of a compliment to tanks by soaking up more damage and just by being better AA overall!
Also i was trying it out vs early blink stalkers, and I realized another thing that I think is a very big help for Mech - while Blink Stalkers will be slightly more effective now that the Lock-On has a cooldown, the increased HP of the Cyclone allows the player to poke more and do more damage. This is because when you go to Lock-On, you're going to trade 1 round of shots because it has the same range as Stalkers. And then you start kiting and getting free damage. So, actually even if in a straight up A-move fight Cyclones are about the same in strength (less dps but more HP) vs Stalkers, the result of this change is that there is more micro on both sides. Lock-On is more potent, and Blink is more potent, but this change allows Cyclones to be stronger vs Stalkers than before before they get Blink, and lets Cyclones also deal with Stalker/Immortals better.
So overall... I think this will be a slight buff for Mech in early TvP, including vs Blink Stalkers. And then the Cyclone gets better the later the game goes with those +2 upgrades. I'm very excited!!
And obviously for TvZ, it should be slightly weaker vs lings cus it can't keep locking back on as it runs away, which is fine since it actually seemed slightly too strong than it should be in TvZ.
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On March 08 2024 11:16 Antithesis wrote:Good patch. I think the general direction is just right. Here is Harstem's view of it, and I largely agree. It's also amusing that Harstem directly argues against some TL.net's favorite opinions, such as that TvZ is zerg-favored and that building ravens in TvZ is out of the question for principled reasons. Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 10:55 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:47 WombaT wrote:On March 08 2024 10:37 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:35 WombaT wrote:On March 08 2024 10:31 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:30 WombaT wrote:On March 08 2024 10:23 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:20 WombaT wrote:On March 08 2024 10:15 jinjin5000 wrote: [quote]
sc2 is full of these frustrating aoe esports units, but touching them just now when it posed not much of problem in pro PvT while it has bigger implication of TvZ just because protoss redditors whined enough is just poor man.
Adjust mines/other unfun aoe units in a big patch all together at once instead of proving balance council will 100% be influenced by community brigading is terrible showing and only encourages repeat of what has been happening for months beforehand. I'm just sick of the whining on the subreddit that has been plaguing reddit for months now. It has never been this bad historically ever but moment redditors realize they have influence over balance like current one, it will just get worse. And it has been terrible for past few months. Can't wait for repeat forever now.
I get it, its frustrating unfun unit. But all this proves is that those spam posting whine posts with obvious alt accounts/trying to justify it on recent buff or pro performance was just annoying to see as they are clearly pushing their own agenda to their own benefit lol. Fair but as the pro scene is gradually winding down I mean there’s something to be said for making the game a bit more enjoyable at a casual level. The game’s been balanced based of a pro level of play for like forever ideally you balance around both with more emphasis on pro level but being too swung by community brigading when most of them are not affected by said balance/dont even know implication of their whine nerfs have me doubting on listening to community at all. I mean to a certain degree sure, equally how many of these changes proposed were things the Reddit community were screaming for? Any changes proposed that reddit community screamed for getting through is 1 more than it should ever be. What ones? TL is slightly less balance whiny than Reddit, the latter I don’t really frequent that often. Basically none of these proposed changes strike me as things people were vociferously advocating for. So what are these changes that Reddit whining have apparently pushed to the PTR testing level? past like 5 months of reddit was just pure whining about widow mines and notable members of diamond protoss community trying really hard to link it to pro games/any means to justify it, with stemmed from "why did widow mines get buffed?!" last patch. It was pretty clear they took the opportunity to whine and ran with it despite the change on mine having 0 effect on what was killing them inf irst place. and all this did was prove that whining on reddit works. It was daily half of frontpage for months. Just widow mine posts after widow mine posts. if it's going to change, change it in a bigger patch that deals with all these concerns without specifically advocating the one community whine posts clump. Address multiple at once without acknowledging a particular event. All this did was give them approval and set a precedence Isn’t that what they’re potentially doing here? Tbh I don’t personally like it, I didn’t like the last couple of patches either where they changed like 8 things at once in a big patch rather than gradually doing targeted changes but more frequently. How does one assess the effectiveness of one change if there’s a bunch running alongside it etc I'm fine with them touching unit itself, but not fine with the sole change to be targeted for widow mine clearly because reddit whined it. It's just rewarding that. If they were going ot change it, they should have addressed multiple unit of similar fashion and avoid acklowedging the direct influence balance whining on reddit has. If you dislike nerfs being whined into existence, why don't you mention the infestor nerf in the same breath? The past weeks have seen a comical amount of whining about the infestor here on TL (but, notably, not on Reddit), although it is essentially only a single player in the world – the best player in the world – who can use them to their full potential. Maru said in an interview that he specifically asked for burrowed Infestors to be nerfed. So no, it wasn't just low level forum posters asking for that change
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On March 08 2024 13:49 Glorfindelio wrote: The speed and timing of the Infestor nerf is truly incredible. Literally the best player in the world uses it to barely win 1 mined-out game against the best turtle Terran ever. Didn't seem to be a problem when Clem picked off a ton of burrowed infestors en route to a 3-1 victory a month prior, or with Reynor/Dark/Solar against any other Terran...Or you know, on ladder in general.
Not really a fan of the widow mine changes, if only because core unit interactions shouldn't be remixed at this point. Felt the same about the baneling nerf. Yeah tbh not a fan of the Infestor change. But it's not like nerfing a unit because 1 player uses it to incredible effect is unheard of, Maru single-handily got Ghosts and Ravens nerfed, ByuN got Reapers nerfed, way back in WoL Mvp got Ghosts nerfed
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United States1585 Posts
On March 08 2024 16:35 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 13:49 Glorfindelio wrote: The speed and timing of the Infestor nerf is truly incredible. Literally the best player in the world uses it to barely win 1 mined-out game against the best turtle Terran ever. Didn't seem to be a problem when Clem picked off a ton of burrowed infestors en route to a 3-1 victory a month prior, or with Reynor/Dark/Solar against any other Terran...Or you know, on ladder in general.
Not really a fan of the widow mine changes, if only because core unit interactions shouldn't be remixed at this point. Felt the same about the baneling nerf. Yeah tbh not a fan of the Infestor change. But it's not like nerfing a unit because 1 player uses it to incredible effect is unheard of, Maru single-handily got Ghosts and Ravens nerfed, ByuN got Reapers nerfed, way back in WoL Mvp got Ghosts nerfed
Re: Ravens. The issue wasn't Maru. The problem was that iteration of the Raven was the grossest unit ever. You didn't need to be good to spam missiles and kill 120 supply of mutalisks in .1 seconds.
https://imgur.com/a/MIzifg6
(^^ see above)
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I think giving WMs back the 1.75 radius with drilling claws researched would be pretty fair since that wouldn't impact TvP at all and prevent Terran from getting completely run over by Ling Bane
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lol.....they actually nerfed infestors......wtf....Maybe Serral should start whining about stim every time he loses now to Clem/Maru/Buyn etc....
On March 08 2024 07:37 Archeon wrote: I get the ideas behind the infestor changes, burrowed infestors often deal game ending damage in TvZ. Then again it often feels like they need to, because if they don't T just fortifies the map and trades while Z slowly mines out. So not sure all in all on the ideas there.
Often deal game ending damage ? Like.......in what universe is that ? Infestors are basically end game unit to help zerg to defend against terran ball+ghost+lib pushes, and even in that its unreliable at best. With scans or *cough* raven...even that is very hard or impossible to do.
On March 08 2024 09:05 Poopi wrote: Terrans are already struggling versus Zerg, so this patch seems a bit weird But as people said it’s the twilight years so it doesn’t really matter
Struggling ? Where is that happening ? At IEM, 5 from top8 were Terrans and at Masters Coliseum 6, there were 3 terrans in top4. The matchup seems pretty balanced at pro level, maybe excluding Serral. But thats not a balance issue.
On March 08 2024 16:35 Charoisaur wrote: [Yeah tbh not a fan of the Infestor change. But it's not like nerfing a unit because 1 player uses it to incredible effect is unheard of, Maru single-handily got Ghosts and Ravens nerfed, ByuN got Reapers nerfed, way back in WoL Mvp got Ghosts nerfed
Didnt you want the Infestor-nerf in the first place ? And this isnt about just one player, its from one single map, lol. They should have at least bare minimum try to watch some more SC2 to see if thats a real problem.
On March 08 2024 18:56 Charoisaur wrote: I think giving WMs back the 1.75 radius with drilling claws researched would be pretty fair since that wouldn't impact TvP at all and prevent Terran from getting completely run over by Ling Bane
This sounds reasonable.
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On March 08 2024 17:11 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 16:35 Charoisaur wrote:On March 08 2024 13:49 Glorfindelio wrote: The speed and timing of the Infestor nerf is truly incredible. Literally the best player in the world uses it to barely win 1 mined-out game against the best turtle Terran ever. Didn't seem to be a problem when Clem picked off a ton of burrowed infestors en route to a 3-1 victory a month prior, or with Reynor/Dark/Solar against any other Terran...Or you know, on ladder in general.
Not really a fan of the widow mine changes, if only because core unit interactions shouldn't be remixed at this point. Felt the same about the baneling nerf. Yeah tbh not a fan of the Infestor change. But it's not like nerfing a unit because 1 player uses it to incredible effect is unheard of, Maru single-handily got Ghosts and Ravens nerfed, ByuN got Reapers nerfed, way back in WoL Mvp got Ghosts nerfed Re: Ravens. The issue wasn't Maru. The problem was that iteration of the Raven was the grossest unit ever. You didn't need to be good to spam missiles and kill 120 supply of mutalisks in .1 seconds. https://imgur.com/a/MIzifg6(^^ see above) Ravens also got nerfed, or "re-worked", a few years ago because Maru was literally unbeatable with mass Raven in TvT for almost a year.
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Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 16:35 Charoisaur wrote: [Yeah tbh not a fan of the Infestor change. But it's not like nerfing a unit because 1 player uses it to incredible effect is unheard of, Maru single-handily got Ghosts and Ravens nerfed, ByuN got Reapers nerfed, way back in WoL Mvp got Ghosts nerfed Didnt you want the Infestor-nerf in the first place ? And this isnt about just one player, its from one single map, lol. They should have at least bare minimum try to watch some more SC2 to see if thats a real problem. No I just responded to the argument "terran players just need to build a Raven, they are all stupid and don't know how to play" which is obviously ridicolous, but yeah I don't think burrowed Infestors were a huge balance issue. Maybe a bit a design issue because it was luck dependant if the scan caught the Infestor or not
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Changes that favour Zerg from the Zerg community balance council.
Nothing to see here.
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On March 08 2024 20:07 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 16:35 Charoisaur wrote: [Yeah tbh not a fan of the Infestor change. But it's not like nerfing a unit because 1 player uses it to incredible effect is unheard of, Maru single-handily got Ghosts and Ravens nerfed, ByuN got Reapers nerfed, way back in WoL Mvp got Ghosts nerfed Didnt you want the Infestor-nerf in the first place ? And this isnt about just one player, its from one single map, lol. They should have at least bare minimum try to watch some more SC2 to see if thats a real problem. No I just responded to the argument "terran players just need to build a Raven, they are all stupid and don't know how to play" which is obviously ridicolous, but yeah I don't think burrowed Infestors were a huge balance issue. Maybe a bit a design issue because it was luck dependant if the scan caught the Infestor or not So if you can replace EMP from Ghost with a Psionic Ability that can deal 25damage and temporarily stun enemy units for 2 secs, would you allow the change as Zerg? The answer is hell no, because Ghost with cloak and that ability will be the end of Zerg lategame as well.
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On March 08 2024 04:55 Moonerz wrote: The attack alert on WM burrow is so dumb imo. Can we get alerts when banes are rolling towards our workers too?
Yes, over the years there has been a noticable pattern which especially is aimed towards Protoss balance changes to 'help' them out by lowering the actual skill ceiling, it seems like:
- parking Observer in place to punish F2 usage less (to be fair, Overseers got the same thing) - High Templar receiving an auto-attack, so they are at least doing SOMETHING when a-moving the whole army, I guess? - Now getting a freaking HEADS-UP alert shortly BEFORE a Widow Mine shot goes off
Sorry, I don't play Protoss myself and I know they have lots of spellcaster abilities they need to manage/control throughout a fight, but JFC I kinda fail to see the trade-off here, the unit gets nerfed quite heavily and people still need to have a hand-holding mechanic on top?!
I get that the Widow Mine feels super unfair at times and nerfing the maximum damage potential to eliminate some volatility that comes with how the unit works hopefully ends up making it more consistent, but c'mon, when we're reeeeally honest here with ourselves we know that Zealot run-by's have been among the dumbest/easiest multipronged harassment plays ever as in most cases people simply warp-in > shift-attack move and forget and nobody is ever accounting for the fact that Zealots can be VERY annoying to deal with as Terran in these situations.
Yeah no shit, like you said we should then also get warned about incoming banelings before they go off in the mineral line or how about my turret warns me when a DT is within it's radius? But maybe I'm also increasingly growing out of touch with the game as the meta might require some dumbing down in specific areas to help people manage a little better?
EDIT: Also I'm really starting to be disappointed that they STILL cannot manage to utilise the "Testing" option on live servers for proposed changes to hopefully get more people to try them.
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Great that observer buff is finally gonna get Protoss out of the mud Don't mind Colossus being dogshit and Disruptors being highly unreliable At least Liberators finally got a nerf! I've been struggling with them in lategame for years when T can just pump them out of reactors, that never made sense to me. Why can't Zerg finally get nerfed too?? They swung the banhammer on Terran, deservedly so, but what about Zerg??? I bet you could nerf Queens and creep and banelings a lot and the most prominent names of the race would still win tournaments
On a more positive note, I am really glad that we finally got a patch for a game that is considered "dead" to many, anything is better than the current level of balance becoming stale over years of the game not receiving updates.
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On March 08 2024 04:46 Charoisaur wrote: 4 heavy widow mine nerfs? Seems a bit much, might as well remove the unit from the game. The upgrade buffs are pretty good though and probably enough to compensate. Still seems like they let r/starcraft balance the game
not sure why the lib nerf is necessary
Widow mines are the reason I (and so many others) left the game. Absolutely terrible game design.
They should remove it.
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how about regional balance changes? would make sense since the metas are different.
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On March 08 2024 16:32 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 11:16 Antithesis wrote:Good patch. I think the general direction is just right. Here is Harstem's view of it, and I largely agree. It's also amusing that Harstem directly argues against some TL.net's favorite opinions, such as that TvZ is zerg-favored and that building ravens in TvZ is out of the question for principled reasons. On March 08 2024 10:55 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:47 WombaT wrote:On March 08 2024 10:37 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:35 WombaT wrote:On March 08 2024 10:31 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:30 WombaT wrote:On March 08 2024 10:23 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:20 WombaT wrote: [quote] Fair but as the pro scene is gradually winding down I mean there’s something to be said for making the game a bit more enjoyable at a casual level.
The game’s been balanced based of a pro level of play for like forever ideally you balance around both with more emphasis on pro level but being too swung by community brigading when most of them are not affected by said balance/dont even know implication of their whine nerfs have me doubting on listening to community at all. I mean to a certain degree sure, equally how many of these changes proposed were things the Reddit community were screaming for? Any changes proposed that reddit community screamed for getting through is 1 more than it should ever be. What ones? TL is slightly less balance whiny than Reddit, the latter I don’t really frequent that often. Basically none of these proposed changes strike me as things people were vociferously advocating for. So what are these changes that Reddit whining have apparently pushed to the PTR testing level? past like 5 months of reddit was just pure whining about widow mines and notable members of diamond protoss community trying really hard to link it to pro games/any means to justify it, with stemmed from "why did widow mines get buffed?!" last patch. It was pretty clear they took the opportunity to whine and ran with it despite the change on mine having 0 effect on what was killing them inf irst place. and all this did was prove that whining on reddit works. It was daily half of frontpage for months. Just widow mine posts after widow mine posts. if it's going to change, change it in a bigger patch that deals with all these concerns without specifically advocating the one community whine posts clump. Address multiple at once without acknowledging a particular event. All this did was give them approval and set a precedence Isn’t that what they’re potentially doing here? Tbh I don’t personally like it, I didn’t like the last couple of patches either where they changed like 8 things at once in a big patch rather than gradually doing targeted changes but more frequently. How does one assess the effectiveness of one change if there’s a bunch running alongside it etc I'm fine with them touching unit itself, but not fine with the sole change to be targeted for widow mine clearly because reddit whined it. It's just rewarding that. If they were going ot change it, they should have addressed multiple unit of similar fashion and avoid acklowedging the direct influence balance whining on reddit has. If you dislike nerfs being whined into existence, why don't you mention the infestor nerf in the same breath? The past weeks have seen a comical amount of whining about the infestor here on TL (but, notably, not on Reddit), although it is essentially only a single player in the world – the best player in the world – who can use them to their full potential. Maru said in an interview that he specifically asked for burrowed Infestors to be nerfed. So no, it wasn't just low level forum posters asking for that change
Typical Maru asking other races to get nerf. Cause Maru knows only Serral can beat him so he ask for a direct “Serral ” nerf
We already seen how hard it is for Zerg to finish terran off in the late game without infestor during Group A GSL
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On March 08 2024 23:46 FFXthebest wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 16:32 Charoisaur wrote:On March 08 2024 11:16 Antithesis wrote:Good patch. I think the general direction is just right. Here is Harstem's view of it, and I largely agree. It's also amusing that Harstem directly argues against some TL.net's favorite opinions, such as that TvZ is zerg-favored and that building ravens in TvZ is out of the question for principled reasons. On March 08 2024 10:55 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:47 WombaT wrote:On March 08 2024 10:37 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:35 WombaT wrote:On March 08 2024 10:31 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:30 WombaT wrote:On March 08 2024 10:23 jinjin5000 wrote: [quote]
ideally you balance around both with more emphasis on pro level but being too swung by community brigading when most of them are not affected by said balance/dont even know implication of their whine nerfs have me doubting on listening to community at all. I mean to a certain degree sure, equally how many of these changes proposed were things the Reddit community were screaming for? Any changes proposed that reddit community screamed for getting through is 1 more than it should ever be. What ones? TL is slightly less balance whiny than Reddit, the latter I don’t really frequent that often. Basically none of these proposed changes strike me as things people were vociferously advocating for. So what are these changes that Reddit whining have apparently pushed to the PTR testing level? past like 5 months of reddit was just pure whining about widow mines and notable members of diamond protoss community trying really hard to link it to pro games/any means to justify it, with stemmed from "why did widow mines get buffed?!" last patch. It was pretty clear they took the opportunity to whine and ran with it despite the change on mine having 0 effect on what was killing them inf irst place. and all this did was prove that whining on reddit works. It was daily half of frontpage for months. Just widow mine posts after widow mine posts. if it's going to change, change it in a bigger patch that deals with all these concerns without specifically advocating the one community whine posts clump. Address multiple at once without acknowledging a particular event. All this did was give them approval and set a precedence Isn’t that what they’re potentially doing here? Tbh I don’t personally like it, I didn’t like the last couple of patches either where they changed like 8 things at once in a big patch rather than gradually doing targeted changes but more frequently. How does one assess the effectiveness of one change if there’s a bunch running alongside it etc I'm fine with them touching unit itself, but not fine with the sole change to be targeted for widow mine clearly because reddit whined it. It's just rewarding that. If they were going ot change it, they should have addressed multiple unit of similar fashion and avoid acklowedging the direct influence balance whining on reddit has. If you dislike nerfs being whined into existence, why don't you mention the infestor nerf in the same breath? The past weeks have seen a comical amount of whining about the infestor here on TL (but, notably, not on Reddit), although it is essentially only a single player in the world – the best player in the world – who can use them to their full potential. Maru said in an interview that he specifically asked for burrowed Infestors to be nerfed. So no, it wasn't just low level forum posters asking for that change Typical Maru asking other races to get nerf. Cause Maru knows only Serral can beat him so he ask for a direct “Serral ” nerf We already seen how hard it is for Zerg to finish terran off in the late game without infestor during Group A GSL
Yeah lord forbid Shin can't also run over Maru in the late game. It's not like Maru has been stomping him across multiple patches pretty consistently. No, it's just that Zerg is too weak late game ZvT
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A game like SC2 should: 1) avoid units that can deal instant game-changing AOE damage 2) encourage fast-paced play rather than the other way around
Disruptor is one of the worst such examples of "how not to design a unit", but at least it can't cloak and the novas are now smaller. Widow mines can cloak, but are only effective against low health units - now nerfed. Infestors can deal AOE damage AND immobilize (deadly vs. Terran bio) AND neural (deadly vs. mech/sky) AND cloak!
Serral has used it way too effectively for at least a couple of years, despite people claiming otherwise (a KoB game between Serral and Maru from ~2 years ago comes to mind, in which a single fungal to a balled up group of bio did the trick), it's just that in this year's Katowice the abuse has become so obvious that even the balance council can no longer ignore it. And what did they do? Make infestor movements a bit easier to see but hey let's increase fungal range!
And to all those folks claiming Terran can just build a Raven and the threat will be gone - THINK about the fact that infestors are mostly used in the late game, and how difficult it is to keep slow moving Ravens relevant and alive in late game TvZ: you must spread them out (so they can detect at the perimeter in several different directions) but also tracking the main army (so as to be relevant; also otherwise they get one shot by a few corruptors/queens/hydras) - all this when nearly every other Terran unit needs to be micro'ed? If the answer is so obvious don't you think the best Terrans would've tried it already?
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Northern Ireland20891 Posts
On March 08 2024 22:39 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 04:46 Charoisaur wrote: 4 heavy widow mine nerfs? Seems a bit much, might as well remove the unit from the game. The upgrade buffs are pretty good though and probably enough to compensate. Still seems like they let r/starcraft balance the game
not sure why the lib nerf is necessary Widow mines are the reason I (and so many others) left the game. Absolutely terrible game design. They should remove it. It’s caused so many frustrations over the years, you have all the volatility of disruptors from both sides where they can do all the damage, or nothing, indeed they can be a net negative and actually friendly fire you.
Not so big a deal in small skirmishes when you can pull back a unit reliably, or manually retarget etc, or do a mine drag somewhat deliberately. In bigger engagements where that’s not really viable they feel almost a crapshoot sometimes.
Add to that the additional wonkinees of drops, which has seen rework after rework necessitated by them being outright too strong (invisible with just an armoury and outright ending games), bouncing between killing a single worker with a pull versus 15+ depending solely on if your opponent is looking or too weak/strong at times in other scenarios.
That they keep getting changed so much is somewhat indicative to me of how hard to balance such a potentially potent but volatile unit is.
They’re a bit too core nowadays to outright remove IMO, and I don’t always hate every element of them either, but in a volatility sense they may be the worst unit ever added into the game.
Add to that they’re not super fun to use and frustrating to play against. Disruptors share the volatility issue and frustration to face, but at least they’re fun to actually use and it’s quite challenging to properly move and effectively target a few simultaneously, blink/disruptor wars are some of the more fun intense micro battles in the game outside its early phases IMO. You don’t have that satisfaction of pushing and leapfrogging tanks and the positional back-and-forth either, although ofc what I find fun is very subjective!
Other units may just be outright too strong, vipers versus mech springs to mind, but they aren’t these inconsistent, frustratingly volatile kind of units like mines can be. You can at least nerf and tweak some things, mines have a real core problem with their design and how it fits into such a fast-paced game.
Let’s take two volatile, uncontrollable units at scale and combine them, chargelots and mines. When those intersect is when you really see that aforementioned volatility, almost anything can happen! No human can reliably target either mines or charge targets in a big battle, depending on where the UI chooses the Zealots to swarm will then dictate initial mine targeting. So you can get anything from a giant hit on a big clump of chargelots, to a relatively harmless one on a peripheral zealot, to some big friendly fire hits.
That’s really not great design, IMO to say the least. But I’m more having a general complaint about the mine at its core.
Within the confines of the current state of the game, and accepting the mine is unlikely to be removed and replaced with some new unit, I don’t actually mind those changes in that context,
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