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http://drop.sc/244948
I go fast third, he goes 2 base muta, but he makes lots of lings at around 40+ and does a lot of damage.
I don't really know how you are supposed to open in zvz, how you are supposed to respond. I don't see any consistency amongst pros. Even when I go fast third, i feel like I'm not really getting any edge, if someone goes 2 base infestor, they have this tech advantage that I don't feel safe attacking into, plus I can't really drone up my third because he might just mass roaches, so it sort of allows him to just get his third up a bit later but we are both mining at the third at the same time. 2 base muta is hell to deal with when going fast third, i feel like 2 base roach/infestor would just be safer against it, as you can't really drone up your third against it anyways.
I mean, nerchio went fast third recently at iem at that last round he was in zvz on in metropolis. Are they doing it as a response to something they see? I just don't understand why people sometimes go 2 base roach/infestor, and why they sometimes go fast third before lair. There aren't really enough zvz's at gom for me to really tell what to do, and so many people go muta that's hard to really pick out a game to look at.
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At 7 min ingame timer you see him commit to 4 gasses, meanwhile he's also making a crapton of lings. This is a perfect time to expand, which you do perfectly. The timing is excellent.
You overcommit to making a lot of banelings, without having any speedlings to actually make them efficient. The banes really do nothing for you. You've got no units and no wall for his impending attack at all! Meanwhile he lands a baneling bomb in your natural mineral line. If you had not lost the queen that spontaneously walked down the ramp off creep to her own death, you could've blocked the natural ramp with two queens. In that sense you had kept all the fighting at your natural. I think that would've helped you minimise the baneling hits there a lot, and minimise the amount of lost production you have from being under pressure. ( Your production is literally null during the attacks.)
Since your opponent fucks up hardcore and makes a massive round of banelings himself, you're not actually behind even if you should have been. For some reason you donate him 11 lings in the middle of the map after having droned up hardcore. Again he does major damage because you've played too greedy, resulting in a GG.
1: Use that Roach Warren and Evo to create a semi-wall at your natural. Why on earth are they placed in remote random locations where they do nothing for you? Choking up lowers the surface area on your spinecrawler and queens a lot, and creates a zone where you can have your lings and banelings defend twice as cost and supply effectively.
2: Don't overgreed. You overgreed HEAVILY in the ZvZ's I've seen you play. When you've reached saturation on minerals and one-two gas, go ahead and make a round of units. If he's taking gas, he cannot have the same income as you do, and have the same amount of units as you do. If you have good numbers you also force him to morph in banelings further from your base. This means your units effectively defend your third base while denying him his. If he doesn't take gas, he cannot possibly make Mutalisks or Infestors before you. Making those units is not only for defense, but also offense.
In this replay you hit saturation on two bases at 6:25. The attack that puts you behind the first time(!) hits your base at 7:50 with less units than two injections worth of units. You'd have easily held this attack by following the above rule.
Instead of units you made 8 drones, which you just lost miserably.
3: When you've made sure that you're matching his ling numbers, and that he's going for mutas, nothing stops you from turtling up on three bases. Three spores and some spines at the bases you cannot defend with less, and then simply use half your lings to keep denying the third base of your opponent. If he commits to defend, you can simply run away. - In the time he's committing to defending though, he's not attacking you, which means you obviously buy time for your tech to kick in. Once infestors are out, its usually game over for the mutaing player.
Remember that the third base is mainly for the increased gas income to bolster your techy units numbers.
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You overcommit to making a lot of banelings, without having any speedlings to actually make them efficient. The banes really do nothing for you. You've got no units and no wall for his impending attack at all! Meanwhile he lands a baneling bomb in your natural mineral line. If you had not lost the queen that spontaneously walked down the ramp off creep to her own death, you could've blocked the natural ramp with two queens. In that sense you had kept all the fighting at your natural. I think that would've helped you minimise the baneling hits there a lot, and minimise the amount of lost production you have from being under pressure. ( Your production is literally null during the attacks.)
When I made that third, I was like oh shit stop that and it was too late, i saw the mass ling and i was like uhhh hope he doesnt look over there, which he didn't. I lucked out there. I'm not really sure, should I be making some lings like before the third? it's kind of hard to figure out, i mean i need drones ;/
I usually take my third with 4 banes, but that means I gotta leave 2 banes at home on the ramp in case he just runs past. When he ran into my base, I did a ton of damage with the banes, I actually think that was a mistake on his part.
I was walking taht queen to the third.
Hm okay I'll make roach/evo in natural now on. I'm so used to hiding double evo when going 2 base ling/infestor.
2. Whenever I watch my reps I'm never ahead in drones. I feel like I'm not greedy enough. ill rewatch this rep with an eye on that. maybe i should be less greedy if im doing a fast third play.
3. If I don't really make more drones, then there's no point in going fast third. I mean, the drones I made I felt was the minimum I needed to make fast third justifiable. And that's including that wave of like 10 drones i sent to the third.
So are you saying when going fast third, I should be way more aggressive with lings?
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http://drop.sc/244979 here is how i open zvz most games
Its kind of a middle of the road build between 2 base lair and super fast (44 supply or less) third.
Lair starts, plus 1 ranged attack starts and third starts all around 7:00-7:15
EDIT: i play pretty poorly here but here is another example of how i like to open http://drop.sc/245000
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Due to the Queen Buff, I would say open 15 Hatch 15 Pool and 15 Gas and then go into quick baneling nest.
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So are you saying when going fast third, I should be way more aggressive with lings?
That is exactly what I'm saying. I still play a ling/infestor style, and the main kicker is that you can split your lings in two groups and not only deny his third, but also do damage to his main or natural if he commits to attacking your third. Again, when you're saturated on the main and natural, you could do with a macro hatch anyway. Instead of placing the macro hatch in the main, I place it at the third.
I'm not sure taking a fast third is as feasible with roach plays though. So if you're insisting on playing roach, you might be better off upgrading burrow and apply some pressure with burrow roaches, than taking your third.
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^ yea but ling/infestor just isn't really viable on maps like shakuras. I'm not so sure it's viable on ohana or condemned either, I really ahve a hard time on those maps with it.
Maybe I'll show a rep of it, but if I go third before lair (as a response to someone going fast third too), I just have nothing, my infestors are late.
Fast third with roach play is feasible against 2 base lair play because against 2 base lair roaches you just have defenders advantage with roaches vs speedroaches. Otherwise there's not really much difference between ling/infestor and roach fast thirds, except that with ling/infestor, you can't take your third before lair if the opponent is going 2 base lair, in case he goes for a mass roach bust of some sort.
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^ But aren't you sorta gambling that he's not making a crapton of lings, like you would with a muta build?
- At least I'd be very impressed if you can go roaches, hold a third and deflect mutas on a map like Daybreak/Shakuras. There's just too much surface area.
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Belial88, first off i want to say thank you very much for making all of these very interesting high level posts recently, i really appreciate and read all your posts on TL 
I am not in masters but i want to respond to this part that you said:
I don't really know how you are supposed to open in zvz, how you are supposed to respond. I don't see any consistency amongst pros. Even when I go fast third, i feel like I'm not really getting any edge,
zvz in sc2 is still kind of like it is in bw, but with different units. You shouldn't be playing "responsive" zvz because if you want to win you should ATTACK. I would argue that (just like in bw) making a significant army faster than the other person is how you win. in bw this was either LINGS which would bust your base or MUTA which meant you could hit a timing so strong that if the other person wasn't ALSO going mutas relatively fast they would just die.
in sc2 if you make 30 roaches and the other dude has 15, it doesn't matter how many drones either of you have because if the guy with the army advantage attacks he wins. Obviously sc2 has a much more diverse unit selection than bw, mutas, raoch, infestors, but if you aren't focusing on getting a big army asap, you won't win much at zvz.
I would say if you wanted to win the most in zvz, you should play an aggressive 2base muta style with lings into a 3rd and then planning to win with mutalisks. by pouring all of your resources into mutas, you will have an equal army value to someone who has poured all of their money into roaches. (right?)
hahah whatever i don't really know what i'm saying but Darkforce beat nerchio in zvz and maybe you should watch those games because Day9 does a great job explaining the mental game that ends up giving darkforce the series (went to g5?) He also did a daily on it and i thought that was good too.
zvz is an interesting matchup but you can't play it like you play zvt and zvp! you have to be aggressive to win, so just do it!!!
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Acer Nerchico's Build Order (What I have taken from the replays & I'm still reviewing them 1 by 1)
9 Overlord
10 Scout (This is added in, he doesn't do this but I do (hate 8/9/10 pool)
14 Hatch
15 Spawn
17 Extractor
17 Overlord
Drone to 18
18-22 Queens
23 Zerglings (only 1)
26 Overlord
28 Bane Nest
(Very standard pro play as of now)
32 Overlord
35-40 Zerglings
44 Overlord
@44 send drone to 3rd (he takes this because his speed kicks in right now)
Evolution Chamber @ 49 (Mineral's line up perfectly)
Roach @ 49 (Mineral's line up perfectly)
Start Missile upgrade when Evolution Chamber starts
Grab 2nd Gas once it starts
His early play is all based off his inject timings with every match-up he does.
Now with this build order, I've tinkered it a bit. Instead of grabbing evolution chamber right away, I send that drone to the 3rd put a spine down. This spine will allow me to move drones over to it once its up and will at least give me the few seconds I need for roaches to help defend this 3rd. When that 3rd goes off in ladder it's like seeing red for other Zergs, they feel the need to attack it. Utilize a few banes/zerglings (35-41 ones) and delay enough for roach assistance. Note: Block ramp with queens as they'll attempt to run in as you deny the attack. Once defended, send a small fleet of zerglings to their 3rd to create havoc. When you have defended that push then Lair up to get Infestors/Roach/Brood/Corrupters.
If it's Muta play you are facing, then you'll plant a 2 spores at each Hatch to defend the early Muta. He'll have to invest 1000/1000 to come at you and you can defend it with just 750 (can be more than 750 if he's killing off overlords). Those delay it enough for Infestors to come into action.
I don't need to explain the early pool stuff because you have that covered in you're guides. 
Hope any of this helps
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ZvZ does tend to be frustrating because if you are not keeping up with your opponent and fall behind or fall behind via a surprise attack, it effectively causes you to lose the game early on.
I realise that there are a few general viable strategies;
Early aggro: This relies heavily in being able to cause damage, because if you don't you just end up economically screwed. Strategies that are viable, i find, are, 7 roach rush, 3 roach speedling rush. (search for the build on these). Its very important to not over commit though. Try to keep your intentions hidden and kill any scout to give the strat a chance of success, and look out for his OL positions so that you can skirt around those and get to his front door to deliver your surprise. Note that you shouldnt over commit; especially if you anticipates you and preps with a lot of spines; in that case just hold back, his commitment to defence might push him behind or at the very least put you economically on par.
Turtling and Macro; Just play defensive and macro up. Keep an ovie near his gas to anticipate tech and sacrifice an OL at certain timings to confirm his tech path. Prevent expansion and macro up. Once you can be sure that you are economically ahead, go in for the kill.
If you see him taking 4 gasses, expect mutas, just queen up, its helpful if you have a macro hatch up after taking your natural expand. 4-5 queens at both bases will keep most muta attacks at bay. Counter with roaches to force him back to his base. A base race between a muta army and a roach army, will leave you ahead even with no anti air in your army, just macro and keep pumping roaches his way.
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Well, I was hoping in Masters you would see some kind of consistency. Diamond ZvZ is such a cesspit right now because people just want to end the game with speedling baneling as soon as possible lest they be killed by an even bigger ling baneling attack. I really have no idea where Day9 gets these ideas. A recent daily of his talked about how in ZvZ your goal is to get as many drones as you can while making as few units as possible, and just knowing how many units to make. Yeah, okay. Thanks.
My take is that in ZvZ your greed levels are amplified so much that even a handful of drones or an expansion is more of an economic investment than you can afford to make, i.e. "Well I've been cranking units this whole time so I must now be ahead in military since he JUST invested 500 minerals in something that's not units." I played a mass ling vs mass ling ZvZ once and the strain of getting an evo chamber and +1 melee almost killed me (until I got +1 done and then just demolished him).
The player who gets the faster third can probably not also afford to spend 1k on drones. On the other hand, the player delaying the third gets a big enough army to get a third and a few drones as well. It's a game of leapfrog where too big a leap just kills you.
I would see if it's possible to build the third, a pair of extractors and put drones on gas (maybe even just move a few from your natural). Use the gas to beef up your army and drone up when you have your opponent on the backfoot army-wise.
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^ ling/bane aggression is pretty easy to hold, as long as you have a safe baneling nest out you should hold ling/bane aggression. That's why you don'ts ee it in high level play. Day9 is totally right in that you want to make as few units as possible, 6 precautionary lings and an honest baneling nest timing, and you can hold any ling/bane all-in easily with banes morphed when he moves out.
You can take your third safely if the opponent goes lair or third, as long as they aren't doinga 25 drones roach/ling all-in that you can see from miles away. My question is that, is it worth it, if you can't really drone it up too much against something like mutas, or why go fast third when you can go 2 base roach/infestor which gets slightly more tech out, and basically same economy. Like if I take a quick third, and the opponent does a 2 base lair muta or roach/infestor build, I can't drone up my third until basically the same time that the opponent's later third would be up and running, since I need to get roaches/infestors out to deal with the 2 base lair build.
I don't really need 5th and 6th gas when going quick third for a long time.
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I often hold ling baneling agression quite well by being a bit greedy till ~50 drones for 2 bases, just have 10 lings in your natural and when you see a bunch of lings running out from enemy base morph them into banelings + make additional lings, bring your 2 queens to block the ramp (one from natural to main) and move drones away from the natural + start 2nd spine at natural. Once you hold it you can often do whatever you want. I very often win the games if they turn into ling + baneling wars even vs stronger opponents. Since after their attack fails I don't fail in counter attack most of the time.
People often do that thing to run 1 ling up the ramp to detonate some baneling. Better run 1 baneling down the ramp to detonate 10 lings , I dont know why but it works vs masters just too well. I am top diamond myself. ZvZ is my best and most favorite mu, which is sad and makes me a freak.
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^ It's my favorite too. Although right now I'm a bit confused on it. I don't understand, do you want broodlords in extreme lategame in roach vs roach games, or do you stick to roach/hydra/infestor? If the opponent gets broods, should you get corruptors? Should you get ultras instead?
I still play ling/infestor on most maps, but I play fast third roach on shakuras and ohana and i probably should on condemned too, not too sure on that map yet.
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I think in extreme lategame situations adding ultras in the mix is the better choice because it is a fluent transition, and zerg is too fast to go broodlords against (lings everywhere in your bases ripping anything that can hit). To go pure broodlord would be suicide and adding a few broodlords into the mix just doesnt feel worth it (spire>greater spire, air upgrades+melee) while with ultras you get this giant tank that ignores fungals completely, and you can get them into the mix faster than brood
When fighting broodlord you have to start scouting how heavy they are going into it and then making corruptors accordingly.
Just like in zvt, if terran overcommits to air army they get smashed by a quick tech switch. If they have a few broods in the mix make a 3-5 corrupters and fungal them+corrupt+infested terrans to death. If they go pure brood you can probably spread them thin enough by dropping, killing bases etc while teching to whatever feels right. If you want to just kill him by harassment ultras are the better choice, but going pure brood yourself will let you fight straight up
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I just played a game where we both went maxed pure broodlord/corruptor with very few infestors with double ups.
Overlooking the rep, I should have just attacked with IT spam at one of his bases (he had mass spines, that's why, even thyough I was far ahead, i couldn't close it, but i could have, i was just too scared of his spines). But I think broodlords is the better choice than ultras. Whenever I paly games like this and I'll go ultras, the opponent just goes broodlords, and it's like why make ultras at all. If the game is very back and forth and low tech, yea ultras are okay, but i think roach/hydra/infestor can hold until a couple broods get out, which with some spines, i think is better.
a few times i've closed it out with ultras but i think broods might be better choice if you max out on roaches.
not really sure, just this game i just played is making me change my mind on it.
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First off, I am currently high diamond so if what works for me apparently won't work in masters I apologize ahead of time.
To me, you need to be aggressive throughout the majority of the early game. I open with a 15 hatch, 15 pool, 15 gas usually and start off defensive until speed kicks in against a 14/14 build, but once we both have speed you need to be aggressive in order to keep a count on their ling numbers. If you ever see them build 8 drones from an inject, you should be able to punish them short of having a very bad baneling blowup. By being aggressive, you can keep tabs on their ling numbers and force them to morph in banelings near their base. If they are morphing near yours, you should attack with your superior ling numbers and push them off / send 1-2 lings per morphing bane to blow them up as soon as they spawn or to kill them while morphing.
Overall, I either want their army hiding in their base behind a spine or two and a queen, or for our armies to be chasing each other back and forth as reinforcements support one side over the other. If they do stay in their base, find a spot where their ovi's aren't yet and keep a section of lings for a counter as I grab a third. The counter lings should be enough to lose a few to defensive banes and still snipe a queen and some drones. The third is used primarily as a macro hatch as I tech to infestor.
When I scout their tech, if all their gas is going into roaches, I spine up the natural and third and drone up. Muta's I place a few spores and a queen at third + roaming queen. Both times I push for the infestor tech. There is a small window where roach speed is available before infestors come out. This needs to be defended/delayed by ling/spine wall, ling counter attack , and/or using the small force of lings to kill the reinforcing roaches. In small numbers roaches lose to lings, so while they are coming across 2 at a time you should be able to snipe them. Make the other player need to gather a few and reinforce with multiple at once.
Late game, I find a small number of ultra's and broods is better than going either one alone. Mass broodlords are too slow and lose to counter attacks and each broodlord you make is fewer corruptors you have to counter the other players broodlord. Too many ultras and they run around each other and aren't effective and they aren't the most resource efficient unit in the first place. Keep a few broodlords with your army, You can use them to force the engagements at favorable locations. Rather than running into a choke point with the opponents army in a concave waiting for you, you can siege them with Broods and force them to retreat. If they make a few corruptors as a counter you hold with transfuse/hydra/infesteor. If they make too many, you roll over their ground army.
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^ I have no problem with like opening build order. I'm talking about a midgame plan, more so. I don't really agree with anything you've said though lol. Teching to infestors before hydras on a fast third, massing so many lings, being so aggressive in the early game. I think most people who go hatch first go ~17 gas nowadays, and do something like 15h/16p/17g. Making hydras vs broodlord/corruptors.
Here's a game where I went pure broodlord/corruptor in lategame. After the first big battle in the south,I should have just rushed his northern expo and spammed IT, but I was a bit put off by his mass spines.
http://drop.sc/247167
i think the problem with going ultras in a roach based game is that the opponent, at the same time, will be able to afford broodlords and mass spines. I think ultras may only be a good choice in a game like that Symbol vs Losira game on Musphelheim - it's a wide, spread out map so you can't just park your army in one spot to defend everything (shakuras, for example, daybreak to a lesser extent), and it's a back and forth aggressive roach based game.
Thanks for your feedback though.
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EPT
