But I just don't see how banning Rattata and SKillous from competing in ESL Open Cups changes anything.
Should esports ban Russian teams/players? - Page 8
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Akio
Finland1824 Posts
But I just don't see how banning Rattata and SKillous from competing in ESL Open Cups changes anything. | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20847 Posts
On March 07 2022 04:51 honorablemacroterran wrote: When Russia says they feel they are existentially threatened and the EU and Washington establishments just repeatedly ignore it and start talking about openly overthrowing their government, I start getting worried that they will feel threatened enough to use the largest nuclear arsenal on the planet. The West has largely let Russia do what it’s wanted without serious repercussion for quite some time now. There’s only so far you one push the ‘Russia feels they’re existentially threatened’ narrative while Russia is sabre rattling and encroaching elsewhere. If you’re threatened by what’s on the peripheries of your territory, it absolutely makes sense to both expand in that direction, and piss off the rather large pan-National military/economic bloc in that direction. Russia and Putin had it pretty good in that regard prior to Ukraine with brass and tack relations with the wider West. Bit of rhetoric here and there. It’s far from a pariah state. Wee natural gas infrastructure deal in the offering, hosted the World Cup, hosted the Winter Olympics. Business as usual for oligarch ex-pats I do hope that response to this clear escalation isn’t going into nuke territory, obviously. If being opposed for subsuming Ukraine is sufficient provocation to do nukes, and folks back off. Well what next? Surely whatever future aspirations Putin has also have to be given in to. | ||
Zealgoon
China182 Posts
On March 06 2022 22:13 WombaT wrote: Does nobody bat an eye? The momentum on this is such that Russia is getting the sanction hammer. I’m as impressed by the actions of states and indeed corporations and individuals on this issue as much as I’m disappointed in the lack of meaningful blowback for an Iraq, or for the actions of Saudi Arabia, or Israel, or whoever else. In the best of worlds this form of pressure is consistently applied and there is less senseless bloodshed and oppression the world over. We are sadly not in the best of worlds, but not in the worst either whereupon no force or pressure is ever exerted to minimise conflict, because it would be inconsistent. Whatever does impact everyday Russian people is hopefully as short term as possible, and easily reversible come the cessation of hostilities. One thing that won’t be easily reversible is the freezing or seizing of assets from oligarchs, assets that let’s be real in many cases weren’t exactly obtained ethically, and at times at the expense of the average Russian. That's a lot of words to say "I openly acknowledge that the west had done crimes on the same level as the Russian government with no reprecussions. But let's not dwell on the past; we're still going to punish the Russians for the exact same crap the west got away with". Even disregarding the (very questionable) moral implications, it's pretty obvious that statements like that are much more likely to push ordinary Russians to a further anti-west stance than it is to help ending the conflict. You're not solving the problem, you're escalating it. | ||
lestye
United States4106 Posts
On March 07 2022 04:51 honorablemacroterran wrote: When Russia says they feel they are existentially threatened and the EU and Washington establishments just repeatedly ignore it and start talking about openly overthrowing their government, I start getting worried that they will feel threatened enough to use the largest nuclear arsenal on the planet. Existentially threatened..... by Ukraine?? | ||
emperorofwild
87 Posts
On March 06 2022 22:21 AaronSWAT wrote: Regarding this statement from the post: "CHINA and TW, I think you should vote a govement that dare to admit TW is a real country first. Before this its not country, no invation, officially. As Chinese I can live without games, thats OK." I want to point out that: Taiwan is a country in every way, EXCEPT THAT The Chinese goverment (PRC) forces/ bullies/ threatens every other country to say no. Explaning below. (and anyone can just easily Google/ wiki/ whatever do your research to see the current status of China and Taiwan, and the 20th history regarding these two.) (A) Taiwan is a country, and its official name is ROC: It has its own goverment, army, territory (which has NEVER been touched/ goverened/ occupied by the goverment or army of the current Chinese goverment, PRC). It has its own currency, its own law. It does not pay tax to China. And, ANY Chinese citizen who wishes to visit Taiwan needs to go through the same Visa application process just as ANY other countries in the world. (B) The Chinese goverment (PRC) forces/bullies/threatens every other country to say no: Currently, almost NO countries in the world would SAY that Taiwan is an independent country. Because bascially Chinese goverment (PRC) would just go like this: "We will not trade with you if you don't agree that Taiwan is a part of China." And since almost every country wants a share of the Chinese market (looking at Disney and Blizzard), they wouldn't argue. For example, if you're some Europeon country, why would you antagonize Chinese goverment and lose the opportunity to trade with China, JUST to support a small island country Taiwan? So, although there has been ZERO soldier of PRC's army that ever set foot on Taiwan (since the KMT party retreated to Taiwan and continued the ROC goverment in 1949), and PRC has never had ANY countrol over ANY part of Taiwan (ROC)'s current territory, but PRC just keeps claiming that "Taiwan is a part of us and is not an independent country", and "look look, almost all other countries agree (or do not disagree) with me. Again, anyone can just do some quick research (10mins would be enough) on the current status, and the 20th to 21th century history regarding China and Taiwan, and they'll see what's going on. It's not that complicated. And yes, I know this thread was about Russia / Ukraine situation, and about if esport / Starcraft has to be involved with politics. But I just need to correct the outright statement. History .huh?So you mean ROC and PRC are two gov in geology CHINA(INCLUDING TW ISLAND) ,that make sense in some way. Remember there is no peace treaty or ceasefire agreement between them,so there is a CHINA civil war start from1945 and last till now,right? So maybe someday it will go to end. Other countries did not interfere in 1940s because they considered their own costs and bennifits. See what they will do next time. Further more you can think in your way. When I was 8 I thought i was the descendant of dinosaurs, I should inherit the whole planet from dinosaurs. | ||
honorablemacroterran
188 Posts
I don't know how long you have been paying attention but over the past decade, Ukraine went from being a post-soviet buffer state that wasn't really an international flashpoint, to having a coup supported by the US and EU, to potentially joining NATO and becoming a base for NATO right on Russia' doorstep. Personally, I think the anti-Russia party in the US and EU is responsible for precipitating all of this and wrecking Ukraine as well as putting us at risk of nuclear war for no reason. This isn't just my opinion, though, eminent foreign policy experts in the US like Mearsheimer who have been following this issue agree that this is a reaction to the West's policy in Ukraine and that backing Putin into a corner isn't a winning move because Russia still has enough nuclear warheads to destroy the entire world. I think all the trouble in this case really started in April, 2008, at the nato Summit in Bucharest, where afterward nato issued a statement that said Ukraine and Georgia would become part of nato. The Russians made it unequivocally clear at the time that they viewed this as an existential threat, and they drew a line in the sand. Nevertheless, what has happened with the passage of time is that we have moved forward to include Ukraine in the West to make Ukraine a Western bulwark on Russia’s border. Of course, this includes more than just nato expansion. nato expansion is the heart of the strategy, but it includes E.U. expansion as well, and it includes turning Ukraine into a pro-American liberal democracy, and, from a Russian perspective, this is an existential threat. | ||
lestye
United States4106 Posts
On March 07 2022 13:30 honorablemacroterran wrote: I don't know how long you have been paying attention but over the past decade, Ukraine went from being a post-soviet buffer state that wasn't really an international flashpoint, to having a coup supported by the US and EU, to potentially joining NATO and becoming a base for NATO right on Russia' doorstep. Personally, I think the anti-Russia party in the US and EU is responsible for precipitating all of this and wrecking Ukraine as well as putting us at risk of nuclear war for no reason. Err, the coup that totally wasn't because of the unpopular President that was Russian stooge right? And since when is joining NATO a justification for war? They're a sovereign country. Who they join an alliance with is their prerogative. Ukraine was never an existential threat to Russia. And nah,I think the only one responsible is the guy who wants to invade Ukraine out an imperialist desire. Especially when this guy has been gesturing he's totally cool with imperialism. And if your neighbor invades and annexes you before....why wouldnt you want to join NATO? This whole NATO situation seems to be the fault of the hostile power. Joining NATO is not an international crime. And even if it was, Putin pushed Ukraine into NATO's arms. And even that is super charitable because as of the date of invasion....THEY WERE NOT A MEMBER OF NATO. | ||
honorablemacroterran
188 Posts
On March 07 2022 13:56 lestye wrote: Err, the coup that totally wasn't because of the unpopular President that was Russian stooge right? And since when is joining NATO a justification for war? They're a sovereign country. Who they join an alliance with is their prerogative. Ukraine was never an existential threat to Russia. And nah,I think the only one responsible is the guy who wants to invade Ukraine out an imperialist desire. Especially when this guy has been gesturing he's totally cool with imperialism. And if your neighbor invades and annexes you before....why wouldnt you want to join NATO? This whole NATO situation seems to be the fault of the hostile power. That coup happened in 2014. That's also when Russia first attacked Ukraine. This is great power politics. Russia feels the need to do this because of the involvement of the US in Ukraine. Nuclear war cannot be won so there is no point in escalating tensions further. | ||
Blargh
United States2076 Posts
On March 07 2022 14:05 honorablemacroterran wrote: That coup happened in 2014. That's also when Russia first attacked Ukraine. This is great power politics. Russia feels the need to do this because of the involvement of the US in Ukraine. Nuclear war cannot be won so there is no point in escalating tensions further. Hey for all we know, the only reason that Russian didn't roll in there years ago is because of sanctions / the US! | ||
lestye
United States4106 Posts
On March 07 2022 14:05 honorablemacroterran wrote: That coup happened in 2014. That's also when Russia first attacked Ukraine. This is great power politics. Russia feels the need to do this because of the involvement of the US in Ukraine. Nuclear war cannot be won so there is no point in escalating tensions further. OK… and by doing that that justifies NATO expanding other places. The takeaway from their actions are “If you’re not in NATO you’re gonna get rolled”. REGARDLESS, considering joining an alliance is not an act of war. Russia is completely in the wrong. | ||
r00ty
Germany969 Posts
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honorablemacroterran
188 Posts
On March 07 2022 16:05 r00ty wrote: Russia is not a great power. Economically they are not even in the top 10 and getting behind further each year. The Netherlands will pass them this year after the snactions hit, how is that possible? Their military is a joke, look at it, 95% is 70s and 80s tech. It's just the nukes, otherwise it's a failed state. All the more reason there's no reason to back them into a corner where they feel like their survival is threatened. | ||
Jockmcplop
United Kingdom8739 Posts
On March 07 2022 16:29 honorablemacroterran wrote: All the more reason there's no reason to back them into a corner where they feel like their survival is threatened. If invading Ukraine and slaughtering thousands of innocent civilians was supposed to solve the problem of their survival being threatened i would say its not working very well so far. | ||
lestye
United States4106 Posts
On March 07 2022 16:29 honorablemacroterran wrote: All the more reason there's no reason to back them into a corner where they feel like their survival is threatened. Survival? They have nukes ffs. They weren’t backed into a corner. They didn’t even try to exhaust all other possibilities. The only country whose survival is threatened is Ukraine. | ||
r00ty
Germany969 Posts
On March 07 2022 16:33 Jockmcplop wrote: If invading Ukraine and slaughtering thousands of innocent civilians was supposed to solve the problem of their survival being threatened i would say its not working very well so far. If Kim Jong Un attacked South Korea, we should just let him take it. Bye Taiwan, it was nice knowing you as a democracy. Maybe we just should give Putin the Baltics and Poland back, i mean he has nukes, nothing we can do. /s | ||
ZeroByte13
640 Posts
"yes, what USA did in Iraq (and a few other places) was also reprehensible and they completely got away with it BUT we _need_ to start punishing countries with sanctions (that mostly affect common folks) at some point, right?" Answer this honestly, please. Do you _really_ believe that next time USA will do something like they did with Iraq again, they will get punished in the same way, with heavy sanctions from entire world? Because you don't actually believe this, right? You know that most probably this will not happen. So it's not "yeah, we should have done it to others too and it's our fault we didn't, but from now on we will" It's "when these countries we don't like do it, punish them heavily... when our allied countries do it, do nothing". This is the actual stance of Western countries, even if you really want to believe it's not. It's not "good vs bad" - it's more of "us vs them". We'll sanction them and won't sanction one of us. | ||
honorablemacroterran
188 Posts
On March 07 2022 16:55 r00ty wrote: If Kim Jong Un attacked South Korea, we should just let him take it. Bye Taiwan, it was nice knowing you as a democracy. Maybe we just should give Putin the Baltics and Poland back, i mean he has nukes, nothing we can do. /s When you get down to it, South Korea, Taiwan and Poland are core US strategic interests, while Ukraine is not. I am not willing to risk nuclear war over expanding NATO into Ukraine. | ||
r00ty
Germany969 Posts
On March 07 2022 17:34 honorablemacroterran wrote: When you get down to it, South Korea, Taiwan and Poland are core US strategic interests, while Ukraine is not. I am not willing to risk nuclear war over expanding NATO into Ukraine. Yea me too, i'll be there if article 5 gets invoked and i'm not burned to cinders yet. Signed a thing and swore an oath back in the day. But as you see there's middle ground between letting the adversary have its way or immediately starting MAD. Welcome back to the cold war everybody. It has a weird logic, but you'll (have to) get used to it. | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20847 Posts
On March 07 2022 10:28 Zealgoon wrote: That's a lot of words to say "I openly acknowledge that the west had done crimes on the same level as the Russian government with no reprecussions. But let's not dwell on the past; we're still going to punish the Russians for the exact same crap the west got away with". Even disregarding the (very questionable) moral implications, it's pretty obvious that statements like that are much more likely to push ordinary Russians to a further anti-west stance than it is to help ending the conflict. You're not solving the problem, you're escalating it. I mean, yes? Anti-West sentiment is a huge component of the fuel that’s pushed Russia westwards this past two decades, but this shouldn’t be pushed back against in case it pushes Russians to a further Let’s be real, there’s certainly plenty of those in opposition, be it publicly or privately. Putin and his wider policies aren’t exactly without popularity. Anti-West sentiment, at times indeed with just cause has been carefully wielded to justify exactly the kind of action we’re currently seeing. | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20847 Posts
On March 07 2022 17:09 ZeroByte13 wrote: Those who say "yes, what USA did in Iraq (and a few other places) was also reprehensible and they completely got away with it BUT we _need_ to start punishing countries with sanctions (that mostly affect common folks) at some point, right?" Answer this honestly, please. Do you _really_ believe that next time USA will do something like they did with Iraq again, they will get punished in the same way, with heavy sanctions from entire world? Because you don't actually believe this, right? You know that most probably this will not happen. So it's not "yeah, we should have done it to others too and it's our fault we didn't, but from now on we will" It's "when these countries we don't like do it, let's punish them heavily... when our allied countries do it, let's do nothing". This is the actual stance of Western countries, even if you really want to believe it's not. It's not "good vs bad" - it's more of "us vs them". We'll sanction them and won't sanction one of us. Good luck meaningfully sanctioning the United States. I’d rather wager China is also in that bracket of states that are essentially too powerful to sanction. Of course it wouldn’t happen, I don’t think anyone here has said it would, just that it should. Russia is not in that bracket. Aside from the fault of their actions precipitating sanctions, their susceptibility to sanctions is also their fault. Endemic corruption has stymied their transition and growth. There is significantly less appetite in America for another Iraq, which is worth noting and rather oft-neglected. Certainly that informed more recent foreign policy. International pressure is not the only check on the wielding of military force. Aside from the many nations in the West that shy out of being embroiled in such conflicts to begin with. Lost in the middle of all this is well, Ukraine. A glance at my location may give some clue into my high valuation of national self-determination. Given a broadly 50/50 split of national identity, if either the U.K. or the Republic of Ireland went and fully annexed our wee land I’d find it wholly unacceptable. | ||
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