€1,091.23 of €2,350.95 per month so far 302 views Mar 5, 2023 302(views in this particular video) * €2.50 / month (most basic support) = 755 € 755+1091=1.846 € --- This with some people already supporting with the assumption that all will pay --- --->>>> BSL= OVER Either way not with the current model... Time to go to the streets and collect some bottles for 1,3 Euros ...
I like ZZZero, so, I say this with as much respect as I can. If I were him and had his passion for foreign BW: I'd get a job, support my family, and then run tournaments on the side, as much as I can. The simple fact is that foreign BW unfortunately isn't a sustainable career.
This is a dead game kept together by very few passionate gamers whom simply love this game. If you offered $100 tournaments, top players would play it because they love this game. No one is truly playing this game trying to make a living unless their absolutely delusional (and I hope there is no one seriously trying to do this, for their sake).
I wish him the best and I'm sure BSL will go on in one way or another because this guys passion. Best of luck.
I kinda agree with G5 here (the first part at least), the foreign scene is carried by the passion of both admins and players, but money is very limited. That being said, the game is far from dead and I also hope you manage to get more money to go for the rest of the year at least. Without proper sponsorship deals I m not sure how easily attainable the goals are. Are you making a bit of money from your merchandise btw or barely breaking even there too?
Do what you can on the site. If it requires a full time job, instead of you working 8h on it, can 4 passionate people do it with 2h daily? If we remove the show matches and only include the real tournaments, can 4 passionate people do it with 1h daily?
On March 06 2023 17:09 CicadaSC wrote: hopefully stormgate come out soon and can make a living from that if want to do full time gaming
Stormgate is at best going to be a StarCraft 2 killer, I don't see Brood War players making a complete switch honestly
maybe not a complete switch, but i have seen some foreigner bw streamers who said they are waiting for stormgate. honestly, neither community will probably be a compelete switch
On March 06 2023 09:17 G5 wrote: Well, that's unfortunate to hear.
I like ZZZero, so, I say this with as much respect as I can. If I were him and had his passion for foreign BW: I'd get a job, support my family, and then run tournaments on the side, as much as I can. The simple fact is that foreign BW unfortunately isn't a sustainable career.
This is a dead game kept together by very few passionate gamers whom simply love this game. If you offered $100 tournaments, top players would play it because they love this game. No one is truly playing this game trying to make a living unless their absolutely delusional (and I hope there is no one seriously trying to do this, for their sake).
I wish him the best and I'm sure BSL will go on in one way or another because this guys passion. Best of luck.
How many times do we say it's a dead game? and we still play this game. speak for yourself. You would kill the foreigner sc with $100 tournaments. Check out the bsl top 8 players they don't just play for fun, and there are others. I'm tired of such comments when someone loses or cant become good in the game and talks like that. of course '' if i........ '' sure...
On March 06 2023 14:01 superjoppe wrote: Get a steady job and support your family.
Do what you can on the site. If it requires a full time job, instead of you working 8h on it, can 4 passionate people do it with 2h daily? If we remove the show matches and only include the real tournaments, can 4 passionate people do it with 1h daily?
As someone who ran tournaments on the side and recieved at all times considerably less than ZZZero was ever making (although I'm very thankful for the support I got) depending on your job doing this on the side is really, really difficult. The main tournaments for ZZZero especially are likely the problem. I remember some streams for BSL going on for like 6-8 hours on a Saturday and Sunday evening.
I was struggling just streaming for 2-3 hours 3 nights a week on top my job and it's why I'm taking an extended break now. If you could run these tournaments without streaming them then it really wouldn't be a problem, but if you don't stream you won't make any money at all for yourself and the prize pool - since most tournaments are crowd funded for BW.
ZZZero would have to change the format of BSL completely if he wanted to make it possible to do without needing to stream for that long and it's not like you can ask other people to do the streaming for you either without paying them, it simply isn't fair. ZZZero I'm sorry to hear this maybe isn't working out for you, but at the end of the day your family is way more important than any Broodwar tournament regardless of how much work you've put into it. Hopefully if this doesn't work you'll be able to find a job that suits you again and you'll be able to support your family with everything they need.
Agree with Sziky. I remember before and even after TSL, when WCG canceled or SC2 released. Did you define it being dead then as well?
How do you define a "live" game? I bet you, with today’s standards - SC:BW has always been dead. And yet we're still playing it up in our 30's or 40's. Nowadays, a new game is released and is streamed 24/7 across multiple platforms with 100000's of viewers and massive price tournaments. 2 years later no one cares about it anymore - is that alive? Back in the day I downloaded OGN VODs from YaoYuan for 10mb/s to even see a pro-game. Was SC:BW alive then?
The only game you can compare is CS but the skill ceiling is so much lower, that anyone can pick it up and feel like they are progressing. With SC:BW, if you pick it up today, you'll be bashed in E-rank for years - not very satisfactory. Again, how do you define a dead game? 1000 viewers? 2000 viewers? or when new people stop coming in? or when the price pool get too low?
Or would you rather considering separate it between pro- and amateur scene? The foreign pro-scene was never there (!). Everyone’s dream has always been to go to Korea and make it big. Comparably foreign SC:BW pro has always struggled.
I think the best way to grow our community is to get viewers that don't feel it's necessary to play, or know how to play the game but just enjoy it for the competition - there are plenty of sports like that. Better production, easily accessible content is the way to go.
Many of us are in our 30’s or 40’s. I know times are hard, but I am sure 90% of us have a paying job that would let us spare 30$ month on ZZZeros’ Patreon. Remember – BSL is the best we ever had (including TSL and WCG) – lets keep it going.
Regardless of the way this ends, first and foremost, thanks for the dedication and work you (ZZZero, but also the rest of the entire BSL crew) put in to keeping the foreign scene alive. You put a lot on the line, and if it ends nobody can blame you for not trying. I'm happy to have donated and supported you in the past.
When you made the decision to go full-time and produce more content, it actually made the foreign top BW scene more active and progressed the skill level of the top foreigners. Unfortunately, it didn't necessarily increased the viewer count of the individual events, and the overall ad revenue is definitely not enough to support the amount of content that needs to get produced. Furthermore, it's harder than ever to collect sponsorship money or donations as budgets are getting tightened in both the corporate and personal worlds.
If you do end up making your seasonal goal eventually, and continuing with BSL, I want to emphasize that it's very unlikely that this fundraising will keep getting easier and easier, and this doesn't make this venture sustainable. The only thing it does is buy you time to figure out / try different things that might make it actually sustainable.
So, if you do end up going forward, I highly advise you to treat whatever you run next as another experiment. Scrap what doesn't work, and try to find new stuff that gets more viewership or sponsorship money, because the only way forward is to get larger engagements with the broadcasts.
If you decide to make this your full time job, you have to treat this as a business. No matter how sad it is, it looks like the current business plan isn't sustainable. Either buy yourself some time and try to pivot the business, or, if you don't see a way to improve, give up and make sure you think of your future and your family.
First of all I would post other platforms for funding like paypal. I think that's cheaper for most locations still than patreon. (assuming using the 5% cut???)
Second potentially make all tournaments have a small buy in fee? Most of that would go to the top spots of each league. (I think a lot if not most players already are donating to the prize pool anyway but not sure). The rest can be pocketed.
Isn't eSport fund involved anymore or just on a smaller scale?
On March 06 2023 09:17 G5 wrote: Well, that's unfortunate to hear.
I like ZZZero, so, I say this with as much respect as I can. If I were him and had his passion for foreign BW: I'd get a job, support my family, and then run tournaments on the side, as much as I can. The simple fact is that foreign BW unfortunately isn't a sustainable career.
This is a dead game kept together by very few passionate gamers whom simply love this game. If you offered $100 tournaments, top players would play it because they love this game. No one is truly playing this game trying to make a living unless their absolutely delusional (and I hope there is no one seriously trying to do this, for their sake).
I wish him the best and I'm sure BSL will go on in one way or another because this guys passion. Best of luck.
"This is a dead game...", - said an old man during his occasional starcraft gameplay, clicking 400 apm, feeling joy and fun by competing with others. A delusional man who thinks that what brings him and thousands of others joy and fun can be a dead thing.
On March 06 2023 09:17 G5 wrote: Well, that's unfortunate to hear.
I like ZZZero, so, I say this with as much respect as I can. If I were him and had his passion for foreign BW: I'd get a job, support my family, and then run tournaments on the side, as much as I can. The simple fact is that foreign BW unfortunately isn't a sustainable career.
This is a dead game kept together by very few passionate gamers whom simply love this game. If you offered $100 tournaments, top players would play it because they love this game. No one is truly playing this game trying to make a living unless their absolutely delusional (and I hope there is no one seriously trying to do this, for their sake).
I wish him the best and I'm sure BSL will go on in one way or another because this guys passion. Best of luck.
How many times do we say it's a dead game? and we still play this game. speak for yourself. You would kill the foreigner sc with $100 tournaments. Check out the bsl top 8 players they don't just play for fun, and there are others. I'm tired of such comments when someone loses or cant become good in the game and talks like that. of course '' if i........ '' sure...
Please don't be one of those delusional players. When the top StarCraft tournament outside of Korea can't garner more views on Twitch than the average cam girl in a bikini, it's probably a dead game. People still play it, but not at any level that you would consider a lively and active game that you can make a career out of. Go on Twitch and hit that Browse button and look at the other games and the type of viewership they get. They crush SC1 and it isn't like SC1 is gaining a bunch new players or something. There are reasons there aren't companies trying to get into SC1. The only reason Afreeca invests in ASL is because the owner is a fan. I'm sorry if this is news to you, but it's true. The game perfectly fits the generally agreed upon definition of a dead game by almost any metric and the community is kept together by a very few passionate gamers whom love the game. If you disagree with that, I don't know what to tell you.
On March 06 2023 09:17 G5 wrote: Well, that's unfortunate to hear.
I like ZZZero, so, I say this with as much respect as I can. If I were him and had his passion for foreign BW: I'd get a job, support my family, and then run tournaments on the side, as much as I can. The simple fact is that foreign BW unfortunately isn't a sustainable career.
This is a dead game kept together by very few passionate gamers whom simply love this game. If you offered $100 tournaments, top players would play it because they love this game. No one is truly playing this game trying to make a living unless their absolutely delusional (and I hope there is no one seriously trying to do this, for their sake).
I wish him the best and I'm sure BSL will go on in one way or another because this guys passion. Best of luck.
"This is a dead game...", - said an old man during his occasional starcraft gameplay, clicking 400 apm, feeling joy and fun by competing with others. A delusional man who thinks that what brings him and thousands of others joy and fun can be a dead thing.
I'm one of those few people whom still play this game out of love for the game. I stream, compete in tournaments, cast, and have coached CPL players for many seasons now. I do my part for this community and I love this game. However, I'm not delusional about it and I certainly wont pretend the state of SC1 is different than it is to try and prop it up. Especially when we're discussing a young man's livelihood. I simply won't sugar-coat the state of SC1 and recommend to anyone that they quit their job to focus on SC:BW. The fact that anyone would try to convince this man the game isn't dead, it's in great shape, and imply that he should focus on SC1 full-time either means you're delusional about it or it means you care more about your SC1 entertainment (or opportunity to win some $) more than this man and his family. I'm just saying it as I see it (I could be wrong but I clearly don't think I am). You all can disagree if you want, that's perfectly fine.
On March 06 2023 09:17 G5 wrote: Well, that's unfortunate to hear.
I like ZZZero, so, I say this with as much respect as I can. If I were him and had his passion for foreign BW: I'd get a job, support my family, and then run tournaments on the side, as much as I can. The simple fact is that foreign BW unfortunately isn't a sustainable career.
This is a dead game kept together by very few passionate gamers whom simply love this game. If you offered $100 tournaments, top players would play it because they love this game. No one is truly playing this game trying to make a living unless their absolutely delusional (and I hope there is no one seriously trying to do this, for their sake).
I wish him the best and I'm sure BSL will go on in one way or another because this guys passion. Best of luck.
How many times do we say it's a dead game? and we still play this game. speak for yourself. You would kill the foreigner sc with $100 tournaments. Check out the bsl top 8 players they don't just play for fun, and there are others. I'm tired of such comments when someone loses or cant become good in the game and talks like that. of course '' if i........ '' sure...
Please don't be one of those delusional players. When the top StarCraft tournament outside of Korea can't garner more views on Twitch than the average cam girl in a bikini, it's probably a dead game. People still play it, but not at any level that you would consider a lively and active game that you can make a career out of. Go on Twitch and hit that Browse button and look at the other games and the type of viewership they get. They crush SC1 and it isn't like SC1 is gaining a bunch new players or something. There are reasons there aren't companies trying to get into SC1. The only reason Afreeca invests in ASL is because the owner is a fan. I'm sorry if this is news to you, but it's true. The game perfectly fits the generally agreed upon definition of a dead game by almost any metric and the community is kept together by a very few passionate gamers whom love the game. If you disagree with that, I don't know what to tell you.
Iam not stupid about the Starcraft, dont teach me thy. The situation was worse 10 years ago. i just suprise why u here. because of people like you who only put negatives in sc=just no need. just if u want to play for fun its ok but then why complain and etc? and become angry when u loss some games?
On March 06 2023 09:17 G5 wrote: Well, that's unfortunate to hear.
I like ZZZero, so, I say this with as much respect as I can. If I were him and had his passion for foreign BW: I'd get a job, support my family, and then run tournaments on the side, as much as I can. The simple fact is that foreign BW unfortunately isn't a sustainable career.
This is a dead game kept together by very few passionate gamers whom simply love this game. If you offered $100 tournaments, top players would play it because they love this game. No one is truly playing this game trying to make a living unless their absolutely delusional (and I hope there is no one seriously trying to do this, for their sake).
I wish him the best and I'm sure BSL will go on in one way or another because this guys passion. Best of luck.
"This is a dead game...", - said an old man during his occasional starcraft gameplay, clicking 400 apm, feeling joy and fun by competing with others. A delusional man who thinks that what brings him and thousands of others joy and fun can be a dead thing.
I'm one of those few people whom still play this game out of love for the game. I stream, compete in tournaments, cast, and have coached CPL players for many seasons now. I do my part for this community and I love this game. However, I'm not delusional about it and I certainly wont pretend the state of SC1 is different than it is to try and prop it up. Especially when we're discussing a young man's livelihood. I simply won't sugar-coat the state of SC1 and recommend to anyone that they quit their job to focus on SC:BW. The fact that anyone would try to convince this man the game isn't dead, it's in great shape, and imply that he should focus on SC1 full-time either means you're delusional about it or it means you care more about your SC1 entertainment (or opportunity to win some $) more than this man and his family. I'm just saying it as I see it (I could be wrong but I clearly don't think I am). You all can disagree if you want, that's perfectly fine.
I am not disagreeing with you. With all the respect I just think you misread the whole message (not my, but bsl message) and started to act as a protective father, throwing advices on how to live the right way, which can be read as "kid, stop doing useless thing, grow up". But we are not discussing young man's livelihood here. It's about the future of competitive BW among old guys and ZZZero is giving the opportunity to proceed further.
On March 06 2023 09:17 G5 wrote: Well, that's unfortunate to hear.
I like ZZZero, so, I say this with as much respect as I can. If I were him and had his passion for foreign BW: I'd get a job, support my family, and then run tournaments on the side, as much as I can. The simple fact is that foreign BW unfortunately isn't a sustainable career.
This is a dead game kept together by very few passionate gamers whom simply love this game. If you offered $100 tournaments, top players would play it because they love this game. No one is truly playing this game trying to make a living unless their absolutely delusional (and I hope there is no one seriously trying to do this, for their sake).
I wish him the best and I'm sure BSL will go on in one way or another because this guys passion. Best of luck.
"This is a dead game...", - said an old man during his occasional starcraft gameplay, clicking 400 apm, feeling joy and fun by competing with others. A delusional man who thinks that what brings him and thousands of others joy and fun can be a dead thing.
I'm one of those few people whom still play this game out of love for the game. I stream, compete in tournaments, cast, and have coached CPL players for many seasons now. I do my part for this community and I love this game. However, I'm not delusional about it and I certainly wont pretend the state of SC1 is different than it is to try and prop it up. Especially when we're discussing a young man's livelihood. I simply won't sugar-coat the state of SC1 and recommend to anyone that they quit their job to focus on SC:BW. The fact that anyone would try to convince this man the game isn't dead, it's in great shape, and imply that he should focus on SC1 full-time either means you're delusional about it or it means you care more about your SC1 entertainment (or opportunity to win some $) more than this man and his family. I'm just saying it as I see it (I could be wrong but I clearly don't think I am). You all can disagree if you want, that's perfectly fine.
I am not disagreeing with you. With all the respect I just think you misread the whole message (not my, but bsl message) and started to act as a protective father, throwing advices on how to live the right way, which can be read as "kid, stop doing useless thing, grow up". But we are not discussing young man's livelihood here. It's about the future of competitive BW among old guys and ZZZero is giving the opportunity to proceed further.
Fair enough. Correct me if I'm wrong here though:
He said he has money for the prize pool but he needs $2,500/month to live and he is seemingly making like half of that.
I mean, he has the prize money for BSL, which means it'll keep going on either way. However, if he can't make $2,500/month, he can't focus on it full-time and will have to get a job. That'll also mean that BSL just won't happen as frequently. So, aren't we discussing whether the community can support him doing this full-time or whether it's going to be him doing it part-time?
I commend ZZZero for quitting his job and pursuing SC:BW full-time. I would have never recommended it and I messaged him privately when he announced it with my thoughts, but either way, I respect the fucking hell out of it. It's brave AF and I wish more people went after their dreams. You'll never regret it no matter how it turns out. However, I'll quote Phil Ivey whom said, "If you try something for a year and don't make money at it, it's time to move on". It's been about a year for ZZZero and I know he's trying to make this last push and I don't mean to be the old-Dad "get a job" guy, but I am sadly going to be that guy. It's one thing when you're a single dude but when you got a family, it's different. Go after your dreams, but when others rely on you, do so with a plan one way or another. It's his life though and he can do what he's going to do. I just don't think there's enough of a community or enough money in SC1 to be sustainable for someone to live off of for the long-term.
The only way to make a living in SC1 (in my opinion) is for you, yourself, to become the commodity. There are only two foreign SC1 players that have done this successfully and still play this game, Artosis and Tasteless. People tune in for them, not the game. If you can do that, you'll be successful and can set yourself up for sustainability. Artosis and Tasteless could do the Day[9] thing or what iNcontroL was starting to do, and become a variety streamer and make it work because of their personal brand that people love and follow. That's what I call job security and sustainability and I would recommend gearing towards that if you want to not have a normal job and focus on streaming / gaming / content creation 24/7.
ActiBlizz killed both SCs, what could you expect from such a wretched company? No need to seek who's right or wrong, who was there or not when needed. Thanks ZZZero for all support, you did your best for foreign community and wishing you best of luck! We're proud of you!
Leonix, please, do not spread false news. You can just make donation (if you haven't yet) or just let's concentrate on making good things happen! The title of the thread can be something like "donations request!!!".
On March 06 2023 09:17 G5 wrote: Well, that's unfortunate to hear.
I like ZZZero, so, I say this with as much respect as I can. If I were him and had his passion for foreign BW: I'd get a job, support my family, and then run tournaments on the side, as much as I can. The simple fact is that foreign BW unfortunately isn't a sustainable career.
This is a dead game kept together by very few passionate gamers whom simply love this game. If you offered $100 tournaments, top players would play it because they love this game. No one is truly playing this game trying to make a living unless their absolutely delusional (and I hope there is no one seriously trying to do this, for their sake).
I wish him the best and I'm sure BSL will go on in one way or another because this guys passion. Best of luck.
"This is a dead game...", - said an old man during his occasional starcraft gameplay, clicking 400 apm, feeling joy and fun by competing with others. A delusional man who thinks that what brings him and thousands of others joy and fun can be a dead thing.
I'm one of those few people whom still play this game out of love for the game. I stream, compete in tournaments, cast, and have coached CPL players for many seasons now. I do my part for this community and I love this game. However, I'm not delusional about it and I certainly wont pretend the state of SC1 is different than it is to try and prop it up. Especially when we're discussing a young man's livelihood. I simply won't sugar-coat the state of SC1 and recommend to anyone that they quit their job to focus on SC:BW. The fact that anyone would try to convince this man the game isn't dead, it's in great shape, and imply that he should focus on SC1 full-time either means you're delusional about it or it means you care more about your SC1 entertainment (or opportunity to win some $) more than this man and his family. I'm just saying it as I see it (I could be wrong but I clearly don't think I am). You all can disagree if you want, that's perfectly fine.
I am not disagreeing with you. With all the respect I just think you misread the whole message (not my, but bsl message) and started to act as a protective father, throwing advices on how to live the right way, which can be read as "kid, stop doing useless thing, grow up". But we are not discussing young man's livelihood here. It's about the future of competitive BW among old guys and ZZZero is giving the opportunity to proceed further.
Fair enough. Correct me if I'm wrong here though:
He said he has money for the prize pool but he needs $2,500/month to live and he is seemingly making like half of that.
I mean, he has the prize money for BSL, which means it'll keep going on either way. However, if he can't make $2,500/month, he can't focus on it full-time and will have to get a job. That'll also mean that BSL just won't happen as frequently. So, aren't we discussing whether the community can support him doing this full-time or whether it's going to be him doing it part-time?
I commend ZZZero for quitting his job and pursuing SC:BW full-time. I would have never recommended it and I messaged him privately when he announced it with my thoughts, but either way, I respect the fucking hell out of it. It's brave AF and I wish more people went after their dreams. You'll never regret it no matter how it turns out. However, I'll quote Phil Ivey whom said, "If you try something for a year and don't make money at it, it's time to move on". It's been about a year for ZZZero and I know he's trying to make this last push and I don't mean to be the old-Dad "get a job" guy, but I am sadly going to be that guy. It's one thing when you're a single dude but when you got a family, it's different. Go after your dreams, but when others rely on you, do so with a plan one way or another. It's his life though and he can do what he's going to do. I just don't think there's enough of a community or enough money in SC1 to be sustainable for someone to live off of for the long-term.
The only way to make a living in SC1 (in my opinion) is for you, yourself, to become the commodity. There are only two foreign SC1 players that have done this successfully and still play this game, Artosis and Tasteless. People tune in for them, not the game. If you can do that, you'll be successful and can set yourself up for sustainability. Artosis and Tasteless could do the Day[9] thing or what iNcontroL was starting to do, and become a variety streamer and make it work because of their personal brand that people love and follow. That's what I call job security and sustainability and I would recommend gearing towards that if you want to not have a normal job and focus on streaming / gaming / content creation 24/7.
You are correct in literal form about full-time vs part-time. By "literal form" I mean that that is the point of view of an organizer. From the community point of view it is about of "will we proceed in growing bw?". Other things such as family first are set in stone in every men's head, therefore no need to worry about it. It's how i see it.
"I just don't think there's enough of a community or enough money in SC1", - I strongly disagree, because (1) community is not an absolute number, (2) BSL is uniting/gathering community, that leads to its growth. (3) Money depends on (2)
As for Phil Ivey quote... based on his carreer he is only succesful at one thing - poker, or projects related to poker, starting from young age. So this quote may be the reason why it is the only one thing. And this guy is a prodigy so this quote can mean the opposite of what it means to you. It also can be a reason of his school drop at young age. Who knows, but I don't want to rely on those prodigy's thoughts.
2 BSLs a year is not bad, still better than 1 WCG per year... imo
and theres a bunch of shit going on at an amateur level, so calling bw dead game is bs, prize pools are not huge, but theres action at all levels... if a person dreams of making a living of playing BW in the foreign scene today, then that person is just as delusional as he was back in the kespa days.
the scene is in a much better place now compared to the Fish/iccup days... people that were playing sc2 in those days can't possible know that. so im thankful of the state of the game today compared to 2011-2015. People like spx, sziky, eon, terror, dandy, tech, bonyth, dewalt, im pretty sure would agree on this.
Olipatrick is running tournaments Zety is running Showmatchs / CWs YuSc is running Showmatchs / tours ZZZero is King Artosis is doing pretty well Afreeca is running tournaments Daily pro leagues CPL iRk LANs BWCL has like 4 divs
the list goes on and on....
@spx just to clarify phil ivey is very succesfull in gambling/bussiness in general, not just poker, he is a poker god tho;
On March 06 2023 14:01 superjoppe wrote: Get a steady job and support your family.
Do what you can on the site. If it requires a full time job, instead of you working 8h on it, can 4 passionate people do it with 2h daily? If we remove the show matches and only include the real tournaments, can 4 passionate people do it with 1h daily?
I managed the YouTube portion of BSL for about a year and it alone took quite a bit of time daily—minimal video editing, thumbnail design, copy, ad placements (tried to keep them out of the game play), posting, promotion, analysis, adjustments.
There are a ton of moving parts, even for just a small portion of this effort, so I don't think it's as easy you might be thinking.
On March 06 2023 09:17 G5 wrote: Well, that's unfortunate to hear.
I like ZZZero, so, I say this with as much respect as I can. If I were him and had his passion for foreign BW: I'd get a job, support my family, and then run tournaments on the side, as much as I can. The simple fact is that foreign BW unfortunately isn't a sustainable career.
This is a dead game kept together by very few passionate gamers whom simply love this game. If you offered $100 tournaments, top players would play it because they love this game. No one is truly playing this game trying to make a living unless their absolutely delusional (and I hope there is no one seriously trying to do this, for their sake).
I wish him the best and I'm sure BSL will go on in one way or another because this guys passion. Best of luck.
How many times do we say it's a dead game? and we still play this game. speak for yourself. You would kill the foreigner sc with $100 tournaments. Check out the bsl top 8 players they don't just play for fun, and there are others. I'm tired of such comments when someone loses or cant become good in the game and talks like that. of course '' if i........ '' sure...
Please don't be one of those delusional players. When the top StarCraft tournament outside of Korea can't garner more views on Twitch than the average cam girl in a bikini, it's probably a dead game. People still play it, but not at any level that you would consider a lively and active game that you can make a career out of. Go on Twitch and hit that Browse button and look at the other games and the type of viewership they get. They crush SC1 and it isn't like SC1 is gaining a bunch new players or something. There are reasons there aren't companies trying to get into SC1. The only reason Afreeca invests in ASL is because the owner is a fan. I'm sorry if this is news to you, but it's true. The game perfectly fits the generally agreed upon definition of a dead game by almost any metric and the community is kept together by a very few passionate gamers whom love the game. If you disagree with that, I don't know what to tell you.
Honestly I find this particular aspect of the StarCraft community extremely frustrating. People seem to think we're still living in 2007, that you can throw up a stream of yourself playing ladder with the absolute bottom-of-the-barrel production values (no cam, barely any viewer interaction, etc.) and you'll garner a bunch of views for your skill at playing the game, and if you don't? Well, the game is dead and it's unwatchable and there's no chance it'll ever attract a new base of viewers again.
This is not how content creation works in 2023. These "bikini streamers" you mention know this very well, but apparently the BW community has never stopped to think about it. If we want the game to find a wider audience, we need to, as a community, be generating more diverse content, finding ways to engage new viewers, branching out to other platforms, interacting with content creators from other communities. We can't simply post the latest VODs with commentary and expect that to really find a foothold.
If you look at the kinds of content being produced for other games, even for games of a similar era like Super Smash Bros: Melee, it's so much better at this. Even mildly popular content creators on these games are producing content across multiple platforms (streams on Twitch/Youtube, longer form video for YouTube, short-form video for YouTube Shorts and TikTok) which as far as I can see, the BW community has approximately 0 people doing. There are people producing discussions of the competitive history of the games, people discussing the weird mechanics that are exploited in competitive play (AsumSaus has a ton of really cool videos in this area and it is honestly a crime that no one has ever done anything similar for BW).
Meanwhile when I go to Youtube, on my account where I have watched plenty of BW videos on along with tons of other esports content, and search "BSL", here's what I see:
I have to scroll all the way down past the YouTube shorts, 8 videos in (not even including the shorts) before I find BSL's latest VOD. My account is even subscribed to BSL's channel, that's how bad the SEO on these videos is.
We can sit here and blame the game, or say that it's just not attractive to new players or viewers or companies, but honestly I think the community is just stuck in its ways and refuses to do the bare minimum to fit into the content creation meta of 2023. We're sitting here trying to optimize by running more events, or have bigger prize pools, or whatever else, while refusing to step back and think about the simple things that could be done to build an audience.
The good news is, since nobody is doing this, the stakes are incredibly low to get started here. Afreeca's StarCraft University demonstrated that there was pent-up demand, at least in Korea, for content outside of the norm of "commentary over competitive matches of the highest skilled players", I would be shocked if there was not plenty of opportunity to do the same outside of Korea. But to get there, people need to actually look at what people are doing in these other more successful content spaces, instead of just doing what they've always done.
@spx just to clarify phil ivey is very succesfull in gambling/bussiness in general, not just poker, he is a poker god tho;
Do not wanna dive deeper into this, but you probably read only titles and didnt follow the rest. I havent found any successful business story of this guy. Only tries: iveyleague failed after 3 years (not one), fantasy sports failed, NuVeda LLC, virtue poker called a scam. If you know at least one successful send pm plz
This seems to just be Leonix's opinion, it's a clickbaity thread tbh
As for BSL, personally I am watching less due to the round robin format, there are no stakes and it seems like endless games with noone getting eliminated so it's kind of a chore to watch. I appreciate that Zero is trying out new things to make the streams work better but this season didn't work for me, previous ones were much better so I hope the next one has some changes and he works out how to keep people interested.
Another thing is that the money in BW is in the korean and chinese scene, so it's best to try to integrate with those communities as much as possible if you want to make a living out of BSL.
As for the game being "dead", lol it could in fact be a good time for BW to grow actually, due to SC2 funding issues and possibly SC2 pros moving to BW.
I see BSL videos in position 3 and throughout the rest of the results en masse.
The SEO is okay (the descriptions should be more unique), but YouTube is less about SEO and more about engagement—specifically the rate of engagement to views.
It would be amazing if 30% or 50% of the 600–1200 people who watch the YouTube videos regularly would like them and maybe comment. That would make BSL vods come up more often in feeds and searches, and the channel would grow in viewership.
You have done many things, which are a huge and amazing success, which a few years ago no one would have expected to achieve on foreigners scene. GL HF GG
One way to attract more audiences would be by hiring Artosis and Tasteless for some BSL retransmissions. Even if part of the prize went to them, it would bring new viewers.
The Starcast_TV youtube channel sits on like 500 bucks Patreon support (while Scan was apparently asking for 2000 bucks to cast ASL) https://www.patreon.com/starcasttv
I was just checking out the the Artosis and Tasteless Patreon and they do a whooping 10000 bucks monthly. Yes, 1700 supporters and 10000 bucks PER M ONTHS for a late and at best mediocre cast.
So yeah the money is there but its not going where its supposed to go. Its a disgrace as far as i am concerned.
BSL is fine, could be improved, sure but its okay. However, i think expecting to get 2500 bucks per months and make a living out of organizing tournaments is in my opinion a rather high bar. Obviously its not impossible but highly unlikely.
In regards to "dead game", its hard to say. I think brood war is kinda of in between "alive and well" and "going into a coma". The high skilled foreigner always have 50 to 150 viewer regardless of time of day or night which isnt bad i dont think. But its also not great. Top homm3 or AoE2 streamers can get 500 to 1000 viewers and they dont wear a swimsuit either.
EDIT Just to be clear, what Zzzero and the casters like Diggity, Doc etc have done is great, also great that voggy, Kwark or JJ helped out was fantastic. And then there is Nyoken, whose commitment is just on another level, casting BSL after BSL and then even waking up early every other day to give us fantastic commentary on ASL together with Eonzerg. So i think we have lots of really hardcore fans that go above and beyond to support brood war. I just wish viewers would step up as well. Would it really hurt you to donate 2 to 5 bucks each months ? Thats the cost of a single covefe...
On March 07 2023 17:36 AncientSion wrote: In my opinion, the main problem is this.
The Starcast_TV youtube channel sits on like 500 bucks Patreon support (while Scan was apparently asking for 2000 bucks to cast ASL)
I was just checking out the the Artosis and Tasteless Patreon and they do a whooping 10000 bucks monthly. Yes, 1700 supporters and 10000 bucks PER M ONTHS for a late and at best mediocre cast.
So yeah the money is there but its not going where its supposed to go. Its a disgrace as far as i am concerned.
BSL is fine, could be improved, sure but its okay. However, i think expecting to get 2500 bucks per months and make a living out of organizing tournaments is in my opinion a rather high bar. Obviously its not impossible but highly unlikely.
In regards to "dead game", its hard to say. I think brood war is kinda of in between "alive and well" and "going into a coma". The high skilled foreigner always have 50 to 150 viewer regardless of time of day or night which isnt bad i dont think. But its also not great. Top homm3 or AoE2 streamers can get 500 to 1000 viewers and they dont wear a swimsuit either.
I completely agree. Unfortunately, those who could really help, they don't do much. I really miss the Chinese help ( they would also support their own players) even if it's not worth it to them from a business perspective seriously what would $3000 be for them?
On March 07 2023 17:36 AncientSion wrote: In my opinion, the main problem is this.
The Starcast_TV youtube channel sits on like 500 bucks Patreon support (while Scan was apparently asking for 2000 bucks to cast ASL)
I was just checking out the the Artosis and Tasteless Patreon and they do a whooping 10000 bucks monthly. Yes, 1700 supporters and 10000 bucks PER M ONTHS for a late and at best mediocre cast.
So yeah the money is there but its not going where its supposed to go. Its a disgrace as far as i am concerned.
BSL is fine, could be improved, sure but its okay. However, i think expecting to get 2500 bucks per months and make a living out of organizing tournaments is in my opinion a rather high bar. Obviously its not impossible but highly unlikely.
In regards to "dead game", its hard to say. I think brood war is kinda of in between "alive and well" and "going into a coma". The high skilled foreigner always have 50 to 150 viewer regardless of time of day or night which isnt bad i dont think. But its also not great. Top homm3 or AoE2 streamers can get 500 to 1000 viewers and they dont wear a swimsuit either.
EDIT Just to be clear, what Zzzero and the casters like Diggity, Doc etc have done is great, also great that voggy, Kwark or JJ helped out was fantastic. And then there is Nyoken, whose commitment is just on another level, casting BSL after BSL and then even waking up early every other day to give us fantastic commentary on ASL together with Eonzerg. So i think we have lots of really hardcore fans that go above and beyond to support brood war. I just wish viewers would step up as well. Would it really hurt you to donate 2 to 5 bucks each months ? Thats the cost of a single covefe...
You didnt even link the starcastv patreon, how are you expecting people to donate?
On March 07 2023 17:36 AncientSion wrote: So yeah the money is there but its not going where its supposed to go. Its a disgrace as far as i am concerned.
And where is it supposed to go? The money goes where the payers want it to go.
Tastosis have earned it through years of persistent works in Korea including difficult periods when they struggled to pay their rent. There is nothing wrong in their fans paying money to have their favorites casters cast the best BW on earth.
For those people, BSL is not something they can't live without, so they don't feel the need to invest. You can't blame them for putting money in the wrong place.
The way I see it, either we turn BSL into something people can't live without (probably impossible given the state of foreign BW) or we have to accept that it will be downgraded (if not ended totally) into smaller competitions like BWCL, CPL, etc.
I think if tastosis can get 60 000$ through patreon per ASL season for only casting + translating interviews with a 2 week release delay while nyoken + scan / eonzerg are casting live and releasing vods to youtube within a day, anything is possible.
yes yes i know tastosis can't cast live because of their twitch/afreeca partnership or something, i'm just saying the amount of money they get paid to do something that's already being done very well by nyoken + scan / eonzerg makes me think anyone can make a living of starcraft brood war, with some luck and dedication. I'm not saying it's easy, just that there's obviously interest if done right.
BSL has a big problem. There are so many top Chinese players participating in the competition, but the audience who know the competition is very small, and the number of Chinese sponsors who know the competition is very small. Except for the finals, few Chinese audiences know the competition, and it is difficult to get a lot of sponsorship from the Chinese audience. Chinese sponsors can spend $1000 a day to sponsor the contestants and anchors of the competition. Sometimes, they sponsor the contestants for $5000 a day just because they win the mihu. In addition to receiving the support of the audience, China's live broadcast will also sell things during the live broadcast. Just selling things may earn more than 10000 dollars a month.
TMNT has it right. tasteless and artosis have been casting starcraft together for more than ten years... they moved to korea to pursue their dream, and established themselves as the gold standard in pro rts casting. put some respect on their name.
although the doting fans who comment on the afreecatv esports tastetosis vods and say they will never watch ASL without tastetosis commentary and treat the nyoken/scan/eonzerg casts as if they don't exist are actually brain damaged in my opinion.
On March 07 2023 21:19 TMNT wrote: And where is it supposed to go? The money goes where the payers want it to go.
If you think that Artosis and Tasteless earning 9.500 $ every months for casting english ASL on top of their sponsorships, their ad revenue and their subscription cuts while BSL and StarcastTV are struggling to even break even is fine, i dont know what to tell you. Just let it sink in, 9.500 $ each month. For what, not worth it that in my opinion.
On March 07 2023 22:38 whylessness wrote: TMNT has it right. tasteless and artosis have been casting starcraft together for more than ten years... although the doting fans who comment on the afreecatv esports tastetosis vods and say they will never watch ASL without tastetosis commentary and treat the nyoken/scan/eonzerg casts as if they don't exist are actually brain damaged in my opinion.
I would put "respect" on their name if they forwarded a tiny portion of their insanely huge income to StarcastTV and or BSL but i cant remember any donation from their end to the last 10 BSL seasons, especially not one that stands out in context to their obscene income. Of course i cant force them but i sure as hell wont give "respect" to their name LOL.
I clearly remember when they opened the Patreon for the english ASL cast and made, i think it was 55.000 $ and then delivered their "cast" 8 weeks later.
On March 07 2023 21:19 TMNT wrote: And where is it supposed to go? The money goes where the payers want it to go.
If you think that Artosis and Tasteless earning 9.500 $ every months for casting english ASL on top of their sponsorships, their ad revenue and their subscription cuts while BSL and StarcastTV are struggling to even break even is fine, i dont know what to tell you. Just let it sink in, 9.500 $ each month. For what, not worth it that in my opinion.
On March 07 2023 22:38 whylessness wrote: TMNT has it right. tasteless and artosis have been casting starcraft together for more than ten years... although the doting fans who comment on the afreecatv esports tastetosis vods and say they will never watch ASL without tastetosis commentary and treat the nyoken/scan/eonzerg casts as if they don't exist are actually brain damaged in my opinion.
I would put "respect" on their name if they forwarded a tiny portion of their insanely huge income to StarcastTV and or BSL but i cant remember any donation from their end to the last 10 BSL seasons, especially not one that stands out in context to their obscene income. Of course i cant force them but i sure as hell wont give "respect" to their name LOL.
I clearly remember when they opened the Patreon for the english ASL cast and made, i think it was 55.000 $ and then delivered their "cast" 8 weeks later.
you seem upset. why on earth would tasteless/artosis donate money fans crowdfunded for them to cast ASL to BSL? that makes zero sense. the money is theirs and theirs alone and they have zero obligation to support BSL.
On March 07 2023 21:19 TMNT wrote: And where is it supposed to go? The money goes where the payers want it to go.
If you think that Artosis and Tasteless earning 9.500 $ every months for casting english ASL on top of their sponsorships, their ad revenue and their subscription cuts while BSL and StarcastTV are struggling to even break even is fine, i dont know what to tell you. Just let it sink in, 9.500 $ each month. For what, not worth it that in my opinion.
On March 07 2023 22:38 whylessness wrote: TMNT has it right. tasteless and artosis have been casting starcraft together for more than ten years... although the doting fans who comment on the afreecatv esports tastetosis vods and say they will never watch ASL without tastetosis commentary and treat the nyoken/scan/eonzerg casts as if they don't exist are actually brain damaged in my opinion.
I would put "respect" on their name if they forwarded a tiny portion of their insanely huge income to StarcastTV and or BSL but i cant remember any donation from their end to the last 10 BSL seasons, especially not one that stands out in context to their obscene income. Of course i cant force them but i sure as hell wont give "respect" to their name LOL.
I clearly remember when they opened the Patreon for the english ASL cast and made, i think it was 55.000 $ and then delivered their "cast" 8 weeks later.
you seem upset. why on earth would tasteless/artosis donate money fans crowdfunded for them to cast ASL to BSL? that makes zero sense. the money is theirs and theirs alone and they have zero obligation to support BSL.
you seem stupid. why one earth would anyone donate money they make from working hard? that makes zero sense. the money is theirs and theirs alone and they have zero obligation to support BSL. /s
Does anyone realize that this discussion is about an assumption of a random person and so far nothing has been said by BSL officials or ZZZero? TL.net in a nutshell.
On March 07 2023 22:57 AncientSion wrote: If you think that Artosis and Tasteless earning 9.500 $ every months for casting english ASL on top of their sponsorships, their ad revenue and their subscription cuts while BSL and StarcastTV are struggling to even break even is fine, i dont know what to tell you. Just let it sink in, 9.500 $ each month. For what, not worth it that in my opinion.
Nah you still don't get it. They earn that much every month not just because of them casting English ASL. It's because they came to Korea 15 years ago and worked their ass off since, and in the process built themselves a solid fanbase.
BSL and SCTV haven't gotten to that point yet. Honestly I don't know if they ever can, because the timing is not right, the scene is not that active, and the demand is certainly not the same...
I would put "respect" on their name if they forwarded a tiny portion of their insanely huge income to StarcastTV and or BSL but i cant remember any donation from their end to the last 10 BSL seasons, especially not one that stands out in context to their obscene income. Of course i cant force them but i sure as hell wont give "respect" to their name LOL.
I clearly remember when they opened the Patreon for the english ASL cast and made, i think it was 55.000 $ and then delivered their "cast" 8 weeks later.
And this line of thinking is just silly. This is the equivalent of complaing about someone buying a Rolex instead of donating to the children lol. Also the money is not that obsecene when you consider they have to pay their production crew as well and then divide it among themselves. It's really the basic income for one person with a normal job in SK, maybe a bit low for Seoul even.
A donation by nature is optional. Once you start guilt-tripping people into it or making people feel obligated, it becomes something else. Tastosis gets literally nothing from foreign bw being successful. Why would they feel the need to spend any substantial money on it? Not to mention their average viewer has no idea foreign bw exists nor would they watch it even if they did.
On March 07 2023 22:57 AncientSion wrote: If you think that Artosis and Tasteless earning 9.500 $ every months for casting english ASL on top of their sponsorships, their ad revenue and their subscription cuts while BSL and StarcastTV are struggling to even break even is fine, i dont know what to tell you. Just let it sink in, 9.500 $ each month. For what, not worth it that in my opinion.
Nah you still don't get it. They earn that much every month not just because of them casting English ASL. It's because they came to Korea 15 years ago and worked their ass off since, and in the process built themselves a solid fanbase.
BSL and SCTV haven't gotten to that point yet. Honestly I don't know if they ever can, because the timing is not right, the scene is not that active, and the demand is certainly not the same...
I would put "respect" on their name if they forwarded a tiny portion of their insanely huge income to StarcastTV and or BSL but i cant remember any donation from their end to the last 10 BSL seasons, especially not one that stands out in context to their obscene income. Of course i cant force them but i sure as hell wont give "respect" to their name LOL.
I clearly remember when they opened the Patreon for the english ASL cast and made, i think it was 55.000 $ and then delivered their "cast" 8 weeks later.
And this line of thinking is just silly. This is the equivalent of complaing about someone buying a Rolex instead of donating to the children lol. Also the money is not that obsecene when you consider they have to pay their production crew as well and then divide it among themselves. It's really the basic income for one person with a normal job in SK, maybe a bit low for Seoul even.
I don't really understand why Tasteless and Artosis are even discussion points.
There are several people who take an interest in Brood War who could single-handedly pay ZZZero's salary out of pocket. No one should hate them for not taking an interest in BSL... Or at least, if you do hate them, keep it to yourself.
On March 07 2023 23:50 GeckoXp wrote: Does anyone realize that this discussion is about an assumption of a random person and so far nothing has been said by BSL officials or ZZZero? TL.net in a nutshell.
On March 07 2023 23:50 GeckoXp wrote: Does anyone realize that this discussion is about an assumption of a random person and so far nothing has been said by BSL officials or ZZZero? TL.net in a nutshell.
I think the issue could be partly resolved if the vast majority of people who regularly watch BSL utilize their collective/numerical strength by donating one or two dollars during each stream. Dollar donation trains should be a thing (and those who wish to donate more can). I should add many people would feel uncomfortable donating one dollar (because it seems cheap) unless everybody is doing it. #BSL fans unite
On March 07 2023 21:19 TMNT wrote: And where is it supposed to go? The money goes where the payers want it to go.
If you think that Artosis and Tasteless earning 9.500 $ every months for casting english ASL on top of their sponsorships, their ad revenue and their subscription cuts while BSL and StarcastTV are struggling to even break even is fine, i dont know what to tell you. Just let it sink in, 9.500 $ each month. For what, not worth it that in my opinion.
On March 07 2023 22:38 whylessness wrote: TMNT has it right. tasteless and artosis have been casting starcraft together for more than ten years... although the doting fans who comment on the afreecatv esports tastetosis vods and say they will never watch ASL without tastetosis commentary and treat the nyoken/scan/eonzerg casts as if they don't exist are actually brain damaged in my opinion.
I would put "respect" on their name if they forwarded a tiny portion of their insanely huge income to StarcastTV and or BSL but i cant remember any donation from their end to the last 10 BSL seasons, especially not one that stands out in context to their obscene income. Of course i cant force them but i sure as hell wont give "respect" to their name LOL.
I clearly remember when they opened the Patreon for the english ASL cast and made, i think it was 55.000 $ and then delivered their "cast" 8 weeks later.
Listen, I remember Artosis living in his Mom and Grandma's house in New Hampshire in a little attic / loft space above the living room with nothing more than a bed, computer, water dispenser, learning Korean books, and a calendar with StarCraft dates on it. He would spend an hour or two a day grinding cent poker so he could go to the local Walmart and buy $1 Tony crispy crust pizzas to live off of and the rest of his time would be grinding out StarCraft. When I first visited him in Korea, he had a little shit apartment in some back alleyway and got his foot ran over by a car one night while we were out and he couldn't go to the hospital because he didn't have any health insurance to speak of. I remember him being poor for so fucking long. I remember fronting Tasteless money for a plane ticket once so he could get to a StarCraft tournament because he too was broke AF and didn't have the money (then I accidentally booked it for the wrong year back and he got fucked at the airport 😑, still dont know how I did that lol). The point is, those guys were broke AF chasing a dream. It's like anyone struggling to start a brand or business. I couldn't eat out or do anything for like a year 1/2 straight when I quit my day job and started my marketing business from the ground up 11 years ago. I would go to Mexican restaurants with friends and have the free chips and salsa for my meal. It's the price you pay sometimes to go after something. If it were easy, everyone would do it. Why in the fuck do you think anyone who struggled and sacrificed for years (and with Tasteless and Artosis, it was yeeeears) to build something is obligated to give back once they FINALLY become successful? Especially when it's giving back to competing entertainment? This is Dan and Nick's livelihood and they owe nothing more than to put out the best content they can for you all.
With that said, I will say, they are very generous in many aspects. I've seen them behind the scenes fight for players in numerous instances. Artosis once threatened a walkout of all foreigners to Korean organizers for a tournament in Korea called IEF where it was Boxer, Bisu, EffOrt, Stork, and a bunch of top foreigners because they told us (after we got there) that they wanted us to play a Bo1 single elimination format and he stood up and spoke for all of us that we didn't fucking travel across the world for 1 fucking game. When I would go on the pylon show etc., Artosis would try to force you to take the money for being on the show even if you said you didn't want it. I've seen both of them help players, other casters, etc. with tips, shoutouts, spots on shows in interviews or as co-casters, etc.
Nyoken, Scan, and now Eonzerg, all do a great job. Ive been friends with Nyoken for years and he's always been a phenomenal caster. I watch StarCast almost exclusively because ASL English vods come out so fucking late but if they want some more money there, they should promote their own shit more and build it up like Taste and Arty have. They're all friends with Nick and Dan and if Nyoken or Scan wanted tips on how to grow an eSports business, Artosis and Tasteless would happily explain it to them. Straight up giving them money though is a weird ask thougj and not something they're obligated to do by any stretch of the imagination.
On March 07 2023 10:48 LG)Sabbath wrote: This seems to just be Leonix's opinion, it's a clickbaity thread tbh
As for BSL, personally I am watching less due to the round robin format, there are no stakes and it seems like endless games with noone getting eliminated so it's kind of a chore to watch. I appreciate that Zero is trying out new things to make the streams work better but this season didn't work for me, previous ones were much better so I hope the next one has some changes and he works out how to keep people interested.
Another thing is that the money in BW is in the korean and chinese scene, so it's best to try to integrate with those communities as much as possible if you want to make a living out of BSL.
As for the game being "dead", lol it could in fact be a good time for BW to grow actually, due to SC2 funding issues and possibly SC2 pros moving to BW.
Issue you have with that is BSL essentially set it up as THE foreigner tournament. You can integrate the Chinese scene more into that but then you run into the problem STPL had which is actually scheduling games. Due to the fact BSL is played live you'd have to have some players up until like 4-5AM which just isn't feasible.
You also have the people in the non korean scene who think putting koreans in anything ruins it. Look at what happened with HAY. Some players refused to participate because Koreans took part and that's likely part of the reason ZZZero chose to ban koreans to begin with. He also wanted it to be a non-korean only tournament to find the best of the best outside of Korea and he definitely achieved that. He's done an amazing job.
The situation ZZZero is in he can't really change his format up too much if he wants the tournament to be regarded as it currently is. Whatever you do in his position format wise you can't really win, you either appeal to one side or the other and neither side of that will make him the money he needs to support his family sadly.
People in the Broodwar community are not a group of gamers where twitch and streaming has been common place from the beginning like it was with SC2. People haven't had to pay for content for years like other communities and even now there's plenty of people working really hard on tournaments and doing it for free, so there's no real incentive for people to pay either, at least not to the numbers streamers would need to earn a living.
One thing people need to be realistic with is growing as a streamer is super difficult and that's even in a new popular game. Tasteless and Artosis worked incredibly hard and suffered for a long time to make it work. In the end, their growth also had external factors which helped a bunch. They were in a position where a lot of doors opened to them when SC2 arrived and the fact they got to cast all those events gained them a much bigger following which nobody really has that opportunity now. I don't think even if we all switched to Stormgate when it comes out we'd have the same opportunity because there's already big streamers going to switch any any major casting gigs would unless some miracle happened just go to them as well.
If you're starting with nothing, which is essentially what ZZZero has done even to grow to the size he has is absolutely amazing. Going past that is going to be very difficult, there isn't an audience there to actually pick up. They're either watching other games or not interested in StarCraft in the English speaking audience. It's not just an issue with Broodwar, you can look at other games as well. If you were starting out when Mario Maker came out for instance you had a much easier time to grow than if you started now. People have already found the users they like and unless you have a very big niche and try something completely new a lot of people will have very little reason to go watch other streams as well.
There's a reason why nobody else in Broodwar gets the same viewer levels as Artosis and it's not because Broodwar is a dead game, it's because they've likely followed Artosis through one of the many other games or live events he's been involved in and love watching him play whatever he plays. They have very little reason to go watch other people, they get their starcraft fix with him. If ZZZero had a load of live events he could go cast in hosted by IEM or ESL I'm sure he'd get a bigger following quicker as well, but that's basically impossible now.
I will say I agree with everything tec said, his post was great.
On March 07 2023 22:35 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: BSL has a big problem. There are so many top Chinese players participating in the competition, but the audience who know the competition is very small, and the number of Chinese sponsors who know the competition is very small. Except for the finals, few Chinese audiences know the competition, and it is difficult to get a lot of sponsorship from the Chinese audience. Chinese sponsors can spend $1000 a day to sponsor the contestants and anchors of the competition. Sometimes, they sponsor the contestants for $5000 a day just because they win the mihu. In addition to receiving the support of the audience, China's live broadcast will also sell things during the live broadcast. Just selling things may earn more than 10000 dollars a month.
You probably have the pulse on this better than anyone in here since foreigners are so siloed from the Chinese BW community but wouldn't there be an audience if BSL was re-broadcasted for the Chinese audience?
Literally someone paying Zzzero to have the content and do whatever they want with it. Do their advertising over the games, have their own casters etc.
I think the level of competition (especially Ro16 onwards) is very good. Sometimes the games are more fun than ASL.
Opening up to Chinese players is when I stopped supporting BSL; because Chinese players have a heavy linked identity with Koreans, there is millions of ethnic Koreans who are now Chinese or living in china, so a ban to Koreans would practically mean a ban to Chinese players; For me it is is not only foreign broodwar anymore, but a mixed link;
Also, relates, zero said the prize pool is there; I believe the reason as some in the thread said before is that people do not see the point in supporting the organizer, and his family; because we have been used to this for years; tons of “free” content; people just do not see the point in supporting a guy who is not actually playing the game; for me its the Chinese conundrum that put me off
On March 08 2023 04:51 pebble444 wrote: Opening up to Chinese players is when I stopped supporting BSL; because Chinese players have a heavy linked identity with Koreans, there is millions of ethnic Koreans who are now Chinese or living in china, so a ban to Koreans would practically mean a ban to Chinese players; For me it is is not only foreign broodwar anymore, but a mixed link;
Wait, what? I'm sorry but this is a weird AF line of thought. What do the millions of Koreans living in China have anything to do with BW?
Also, like, half the NA players have the surname Kim or Park if you pay any attention. Might as well ban them, and ban the whole NA in the process because I'm sure there are millions of Koreans living there as well.
Wait, what? I'm sorry but this is a weird AF line of thought. What do the millions of Koreans living in China have anything to do with BW?
Sure it might be weird for you, but to me it makes sense; it’s my money and I decide who to give it to; this thread was as I understood it about why would more people not give to support the bsl. I gave my straightforward answer.
On March 07 2023 22:57 AncientSion wrote: If you think that Artosis and Tasteless earning 9.500 $ every months for casting english ASL on top of their sponsorships, their ad revenue and their subscription cuts while BSL and StarcastTV are struggling to even break even is fine, i dont know what to tell you. Just let it sink in, 9.500 $ each month. For what, not worth it that in my opinion.
Nah you still don't get it. They earn that much every month not just because of them casting English ASL. It's because they came to Korea 15 years ago and worked their ass off since, and in the process built themselves a solid fanbase.
BSL and SCTV haven't gotten to that point yet. Honestly I don't know if they ever can, because the timing is not right, the scene is not that active, and the demand is certainly not the same...
I would put "respect" on their name if they forwarded a tiny portion of their insanely huge income to StarcastTV and or BSL but i cant remember any donation from their end to the last 10 BSL seasons, especially not one that stands out in context to their obscene income. Of course i cant force them but i sure as hell wont give "respect" to their name LOL.
I clearly remember when they opened the Patreon for the english ASL cast and made, i think it was 55.000 $ and then delivered their "cast" 8 weeks later.
And this line of thinking is just silly. This is the equivalent of complaing about someone buying a Rolex instead of donating to the children lol. Also the money is not that obsecene when you consider they have to pay their production crew as well and then divide it among themselves. It's really the basic income for one person with a normal job in SK, maybe a bit low for Seoul even.
I don't really understand why Tasteless and Artosis are even discussion points.
There are several people who take an interest in Brood War who could single-handedly pay ZZZero's salary out of pocket. No one should hate them for not taking an interest in BSL... Or at least, if you do hate them, keep it to yourself.
On March 07 2023 23:50 GeckoXp wrote: Does anyone realize that this discussion is about an assumption of a random person and so far nothing has been said by BSL officials or ZZZero? TL.net in a nutshell.
Also, this ^
Omg.Tl got so crazy even Gecko and Eywa started agreeing with another. That i lived long enough to see that day.
Topic..hmh: same old same old. It depends on your definition if "gaem is dead gaem". Bikini streamers alone wont do the trick. Yes china has way better sponsors, has always been that way coz china is 1 market and "the foreign scene" is more than one in reality. Going bw full time= very likely not gonna work, but lets support the hero zzzzero and be positive about it.
Some things wrong with this thread: - The title (as pointed out already) - In the entire thread https://www.patreon.com/Bombastic link has been missing completely
What ZZZero is doing is amazing. Like I have said in another thread, I think he just needs a bit more time to keep building his brand and that he should consider a lower prize pool or fewer seasons, to continue his dream full-time.
I also think having 10 different casters hurts BSL more than having just 2-4, however it is commendable and sincere as fuck to give all those casters a chance to grow. It's like ZZZero is taking them under his wing as a guardian would.
The current BSL format shouldn't be repeated imho. It is much more exciting to watch the top titans duke it out only after they finally reached the final defeating all competition in their way than having what's essentially 20+ show matches within the same tournament before the semi-finals and finals are even played. I totally get the thought behind it though and no1 can learn without making mistakes. If BSL doesn't already have one, a thinking tank could definitely be beneficial in making BSL even better quicker. Production value in the last 2 seasons has made impressively big steps.
The current BSL format shouldn't be repeated imho. It is much more exciting to watch the top titans duke it out only after they finally reached the final defeating all competition in their way than having what's essentially 20+ show matches within the same tournament before the semi-finals and finals are even played.
Totally agree here, I would love to see the ASL, CSL... format again. Best of luck to zzzero, and I still think it's possible with everyone's little grain of sand. BSL Forever!
On March 07 2023 17:36 AncientSion wrote: In my opinion, the main problem is this.
The Starcast_TV youtube channel sits on like 500 bucks Patreon support (while Scan was apparently asking for 2000 bucks to cast ASL) https://www.patreon.com/starcasttv
I was just checking out the the Artosis and Tasteless Patreon and they do a whooping 10000 bucks monthly. Yes, 1700 supporters and 10000 bucks PER M ONTHS for a late and at best mediocre cast.
So yeah the money is there but its not going where its supposed to go. Its a disgrace as far as i am concerned.
BSL is fine, could be improved, sure but its okay. However, i think expecting to get 2500 bucks per months and make a living out of organizing tournaments is in my opinion a rather high bar. Obviously its not impossible but highly unlikely.
In regards to "dead game", its hard to say. I think brood war is kinda of in between "alive and well" and "going into a coma". The high skilled foreigner always have 50 to 150 viewer regardless of time of day or night which isnt bad i dont think. But its also not great. Top homm3 or AoE2 streamers can get 500 to 1000 viewers and they dont wear a swimsuit either.
EDIT Just to be clear, what Zzzero and the casters like Diggity, Doc etc have done is great, also great that voggy, Kwark or JJ helped out was fantastic. And then there is Nyoken, whose commitment is just on another level, casting BSL after BSL and then even waking up early every other day to give us fantastic commentary on ASL together with Eonzerg. So i think we have lots of really hardcore fans that go above and beyond to support brood war. I just wish viewers would step up as well. Would it really hurt you to donate 2 to 5 bucks each months ? Thats the cost of a single covefe...
It's covfefe first of all (learn teh crct spllng ; D)...
The current BSL format shouldn't be repeated imho. It is much more exciting to watch the top titans duke it out only after they finally reached the final defeating all competition in their way than having what's essentially 20+ show matches within the same tournament before the semi-finals and finals are even played.
Totally agree here, I would love to see the ASL, CSL... format again. Best of luck to zzzero, and I still think it's possible with everyone's little grain of sand. BSL Forever!
With ASL format and (more importantly!) ASL qualification system even I would go back to supporting BSL again. ((won't answer to replies, I only wanted to say this))
The current BSL format shouldn't be repeated imho. It is much more exciting to watch the top titans duke it out only after they finally reached the final defeating all competition in their way than having what's essentially 20+ show matches within the same tournament before the semi-finals and finals are even played.
Totally agree here, I would love to see the ASL, CSL... format again. Best of luck to zzzero, and I still think it's possible with everyone's little grain of sand. BSL Forever!
normal MSL groups for ro24 and 16 and a double elimination bo5 with bo7 bracket finals and bo9 grand final would have been much better, I agree.
My BROS I am an SC:BW streamer for LATAM and living from streaming is not an option especially for Starcraft content creators. We are like any of you who enjoy playing and watching SC, and if at any time it becomes difficult to upload content or we leave them for a certain time it is because we also have problems, demotivation, priorities, etc. but above all we have a family which needs time to enjoy with us. I admire the work of ZZZERO because making a tournament of a dead game or whatever you want to call it, is an incredible task but good if he himself has realized that he does not generate money, I particularly would not put the integrity of my family at stake, with the respect you deserve ZZZERO I think you do not want to leave your comfort zone and on the other hand leave your passion but it is time to do it for those who love you. Family is family
STARCRAFT WILL NEVER COME BEFORE MY FAMILY, because I can lose a game for a rookie but never lose my family for prioritizing a game.
On March 08 2023 14:12 Peeano wrote: Some things wrong with this thread: - The title (as pointed out already) - In the entire thread https://www.patreon.com/Bombastic link has been missing completely
What ZZZero is doing is amazing. Like I have said in another thread, I think he just needs a bit more time to keep building his brand and that he should consider a lower prize pool or fewer seasons, to continue his dream full-time.
I also think having 10 different casters hurts BSL more than having just 2-4, however it is commendable and sincere as fuck to give all those casters a chance to grow. It's like ZZZero is taking them under his wing as a guardian would.
The current BSL format shouldn't be repeated imho. It is much more exciting to watch the top titans duke it out only after they finally reached the final defeating all competition in their way than having what's essentially 20+ show matches within the same tournament before the semi-finals and finals are even played. I totally get the thought behind it though and no1 can learn without making mistakes. If BSL doesn't already have one, a thinking tank could definitely be beneficial in making BSL even better quicker. Production value in the last 2 seasons has made impressively big steps.
I actually like the current ro8 format, i think it gives you a much better perspective in the skill level of the players relative to the others. Yes its a ton of games to "just cut from 8 to 6" but i dont mind. Imagine we would've had for ex. Mihu vs oya as bo3 and we would have missed those amazing series mihu vs dewalt, vs sziky., vs bony. All those were INCREDIBLY good.
As Zzzero is reading here, i want to strongly point out that including the chinese on the big scale has been the best thing in foreign broodwar since forever period (!) - we are way better connected to china then ever. - games are much more exciting for viewers. For a long time, there was always a clear favorite with not too much suprises. Now BSL is very exciting, when top "western foreigners" and chinese clash, im on the edge of my seat. - its obv great for the players themselves to have a better competition.
Last part is not contrary to you Peeano, just my general thoughts and feedback.
On March 08 2023 14:12 Peeano wrote: Some things wrong with this thread: - The title (as pointed out already) - In the entire thread https://www.patreon.com/Bombastic link has been missing completely
What ZZZero is doing is amazing. Like I have said in another thread, I think he just needs a bit more time to keep building his brand and that he should consider a lower prize pool or fewer seasons, to continue his dream full-time.
I also think having 10 different casters hurts BSL more than having just 2-4, however it is commendable and sincere as fuck to give all those casters a chance to grow. It's like ZZZero is taking them under his wing as a guardian would.
The current BSL format shouldn't be repeated imho. It is much more exciting to watch the top titans duke it out only after they finally reached the final defeating all competition in their way than having what's essentially 20+ show matches within the same tournament before the semi-finals and finals are even played. I totally get the thought behind it though and no1 can learn without making mistakes. If BSL doesn't already have one, a thinking tank could definitely be beneficial in making BSL even better quicker. Production value in the last 2 seasons has made impressively big steps.
I actually like the current ro8 format, i think it gives you a much better perspective in the skill level of the players relative to the others. Yes its a ton of games to "just cut from 8 to 6" but i dont mind. Imagine we would've had for ex. Mihu vs oya as bo3 and we would have missed those amazing series mihu vs dewalt, vs sziky., vs bony. All those were INCREDIBLY good.
As Zzzero is reading here, i want to strongly point out that including the chinese on the big scale has been the best thing in foreign broodwar since forever period (!) - we are way better connected to china then ever. - games are much more exciting for viewers. For a long time, there was always a clear favorite with not too much suprises. Now BSL is very exciting, when top "western foreigners" and chinese clash, im on the edge of my seat. - its obv great for the players themselves to have a better competition.
Last part is not contrary to you Peeano, just my general thoughts and feedback.
No worries. I'm happy to know other people enjoy it.
I agree with that there were some really good games, my point is that that (imo) takes away excitement from the finals. We now know better what to expect and fthere is a higher chance the best match was already played. Ideally the finals is the cream of the crop.
On March 09 2023 00:50 Converick wrote: My BROS I am an SC:BW streamer for LATAM and living from streaming is not an option especially for Starcraft content creators. We are like any of you who enjoy playing and watching SC, and if at any time it becomes difficult to upload content or we leave them for a certain time it is because we also have problems, demotivation, priorities, etc. but above all we have a family which needs time to enjoy with us. I admire the work of ZZZERO because making a tournament of a dead game or whatever you want to call it, is an incredible task but good if he himself has realized that he does not generate money, I particularly would not put the integrity of my family at stake, with the respect you deserve ZZZERO I think you do not want to leave your comfort zone and on the other hand leave your passion but it is time to do it for those who love you. Family is family
STARCRAFT WILL NEVER COME BEFORE MY FAMILY, because I can lose a game for a rookie but never lose my family for prioritizing a game.
by Converick
"STARCRAFT WILL NEVER COME BEFORE MY FAMILY, because I can lose a game for a rookie but never lose my family for prioritizing a game.
On March 08 2023 14:12 Peeano wrote: Some things wrong with this thread: - The title (as pointed out already) - In the entire thread https://www.patreon.com/Bombastic link has been missing completely
What ZZZero is doing is amazing. Like I have said in another thread, I think he just needs a bit more time to keep building his brand and that he should consider a lower prize pool or fewer seasons, to continue his dream full-time.
I also think having 10 different casters hurts BSL more than having just 2-4, however it is commendable and sincere as fuck to give all those casters a chance to grow. It's like ZZZero is taking them under his wing as a guardian would.
The current BSL format shouldn't be repeated imho. It is much more exciting to watch the top titans duke it out only after they finally reached the final defeating all competition in their way than having what's essentially 20+ show matches within the same tournament before the semi-finals and finals are even played. I totally get the thought behind it though and no1 can learn without making mistakes. If BSL doesn't already have one, a thinking tank could definitely be beneficial in making BSL even better quicker. Production value in the last 2 seasons has made impressively big steps.
I actually like the current ro8 format, i think it gives you a much better perspective in the skill level of the players relative to the others. Yes its a ton of games to "just cut from 8 to 6" but i dont mind. Imagine we would've had for ex. Mihu vs oya as bo3 and we would have missed those amazing series mihu vs dewalt, vs sziky., vs bony. All those were INCREDIBLY good.
As Zzzero is reading here, i want to strongly point out that including the chinese on the big scale has been the best thing in foreign broodwar since forever period (!) - we are way better connected to china then ever. - games are much more exciting for viewers. For a long time, there was always a clear favorite with not too much suprises. Now BSL is very exciting, when top "western foreigners" and chinese clash, im on the edge of my seat. - its obv great for the players themselves to have a better competition.
Last part is not contrary to you Peeano, just my general thoughts and feedback.
No worries. I'm happy to know other people enjoy it.
I agree with that there were some really good games, my point is that that (imo) takes away excitement from the finals. We now know better what to expect and fthere is a higher chance the best match was already played. Ideally the finals is the cream of the crop.
I think both formats have merit, but I think having both round robin and knockout bracket is redundant. Generally, I think round robin is better for team events and elimination bracket is better for individual events... At least that's my preference. But I also think BSL should just mirror ASL format.
On March 09 2023 00:50 Converick wrote: My BROS I am an SC:BW streamer for LATAM and living from streaming is not an option especially for Starcraft content creators. We are like any of you who enjoy playing and watching SC, and if at any time it becomes difficult to upload content or we leave them for a certain time it is because we also have problems, demotivation, priorities, etc.
Hi, i´m new in tl and that´s false Deathfate and Dandy were doing good in Trovo, Deathfate got a sponsor and that`s why he helped the community,Yusc arrived later and earned less money but he´s doing good . Olipatrick has a good life but id know facebook Trovo belongs to Tencent and they used to give MASSIVE amounts of money and i`m not counting donations, they stopped because people in SA (i`m latino) abused the laws, trovo decreased the bounties and that wrecked Deathfate.
On March 08 2023 04:51 pebble444 wrote: Opening up to Chinese players is when I stopped supporting BSL; because Chinese players have a heavy linked identity with Koreans, there is millions of ethnic Koreans who are now Chinese or living in china, so a ban to Koreans would practically mean a ban to Chinese players; For me it is is not only foreign broodwar anymore, but a mixed link;
Idk what makes Koreans better, maybe it´s because they work harder than chinese (which is impressive) but top "foreign" players can defeat chinese players. Their identity is not heavily linked cause Skoreans are US "allies" (politics + old US entertainment) and Chinese really love their country and they are Nkorean allies (politics 2). If "foreign" players were able to travel there they would stomp the chinese then "we" would learn from each other. In almost the same way SKoreans live close to Japan and share a lot of ancient stuff but SKans aren´t close to them
In reality chinese players are the missing link foreign bw needed to reach the amateurs
One for sure i know: We dont ''any more'' DPL,RCG,Some mini tour ( defiler, jeez weekly ) if we even ''cut'' BSL-t: of course we will continue the play, just on B level. That's why you need to know when we're talking about China: China player has 10x better oportunity to play,practice this game ( they connection tr24low vs Korea, they have 100 tournament, they have games vs Korean pros,semi pros ) and after they banned Dewalt on SpringCup (with good connection) I do not know what to say.....
On March 09 2023 19:06 sas.Sziky wrote: One for sure i know: We dont ''any more'' DPL,RCG,Some mini tour ( defiler, jeez weekly ) if we even ''cut'' BSL-t: of course we will continue the play, just on B level. That's why you need to know when we're talking about China: China player has 10x better oportunity to play,practice this game ( they connection tr24low vs Korea, they have 100 tournament, they have games vs Korean pros,semi pros ) and after they banned Dewalt on SpringCup (with good connection) I do not know what to say.....
what..? why did they banned Dewalt? for what exactly? "bad connection"? but he qualified from the korean part, no?
On March 09 2023 19:06 sas.Sziky wrote: One for sure i know: We dont ''any more'' DPL,RCG,Some mini tour ( defiler, jeez weekly ) if we even ''cut'' BSL-t: of course we will continue the play, just on B level. That's why you need to know when we're talking about China: China player has 10x better oportunity to play,practice this game ( they connection tr24low vs Korea, they have 100 tournament, they have games vs Korean pros,semi pros ) and after they banned Dewalt on SpringCup (with good connection) I do not know what to say.....
what..? why did they banned Dewalt? for what exactly? "bad connection"? but he qualified from the korean part, no?
that's absolutely disgusting, wow..
''Dewalt was forfeited because of the network delay problem.'' as far as i know it was tr24high. Sanpao StarLeague Spring Cup/4
On March 09 2023 19:06 sas.Sziky wrote: One for sure i know: We dont ''any more'' DPL,RCG,Some mini tour ( defiler, jeez weekly ) if we even ''cut'' BSL-t: of course we will continue the play, just on B level. That's why you need to know when we're talking about China: China player has 10x better oportunity to play,practice this game ( they connection tr24low vs Korea, they have 100 tournament, they have games vs Korean pros,semi pros ) and after they banned Dewalt on SpringCup (with good connection) I do not know what to say.....
what..? why did they banned Dewalt? for what exactly? "bad connection"? but he qualified from the korean part, no?
that's absolutely disgusting, wow..
''Dewalt was forfeited because of the network delay problem.'' as far as i know it was tr24high. Sanpao StarLeague Spring Cup/4
On March 09 2023 19:06 sas.Sziky wrote: One for sure i know: We dont ''any more'' DPL,RCG,Some mini tour ( defiler, jeez weekly ) if we even ''cut'' BSL-t: of course we will continue the play, just on B level. That's why you need to know when we're talking about China: China player has 10x better oportunity to play,practice this game ( they connection tr24low vs Korea, they have 100 tournament, they have games vs Korean pros,semi pros ) and after they banned Dewalt on SpringCup (with good connection) I do not know what to say.....
what..? why did they banned Dewalt? for what exactly? "bad connection"? but he qualified from the korean part, no?
that's absolutely disgusting, wow..
''Dewalt was forfeited because of the network delay problem.'' as far as i know it was tr24high. Sanpao StarLeague Spring Cup/4
wtf man, that's just sad..
there was a bit of backlash, I think it s a case of poorly written rules and overzealous admin following said poorly written rule strictly. (usually admins dont have much freedom with a botched rule that being said, I know from experience) But would they have been so strict if it were Mihu or Shuttle? probably not either
On March 09 2023 19:06 sas.Sziky wrote: One for sure i know: We dont ''any more'' DPL,RCG,Some mini tour ( defiler, jeez weekly ) if we even ''cut'' BSL-t: of course we will continue the play, just on B level. That's why you need to know when we're talking about China: China player has 10x better oportunity to play,practice this game ( they connection tr24low vs Korea, they have 100 tournament, they have games vs Korean pros,semi pros ) and after they banned Dewalt on SpringCup (with good connection) I do not know what to say.....
what..? why did they banned Dewalt? for what exactly? "bad connection"? but he qualified from the korean part, no?
that's absolutely disgusting, wow..
the chinese are nasty, they ban dewalt because it will lag their tournaments but they can go down lag the entire bsl without problem
I struggle to see the outcry after that Dewalt decision tbh. If it's written in the rule that a player must meet a specific network condition to play then so be it. He was able to play the qualifier when he was in Korea but it's not the case now.
On the other hand BSL is a global tourney which suffers from lag problem already. If you blame the Chinese for lagging BSL then might as well ban NA and SA in the process and it'd become BSL Euro.
On March 11 2023 01:35 TMNT wrote: I struggle to see the outcry after that Dewalt decision tbh. If it's written in the rule that a player must meet a specific network condition to play then so be it. He was able to play the qualifier when he was in Korea but it's not the case now.
On the other hand BSL is a global tourney which suffers from lag problem already. If you blame the Chinese for lagging BSL then might as well ban NA and SA in the process and it'd become BSL Euro.
you know there is such a thing as a sense of justice. but you don't know anything about that, as I can see.
On March 11 2023 01:35 TMNT wrote: I struggle to see the outcry after that Dewalt decision tbh. If it's written in the rule that a player must meet a specific network condition to play then so be it. He was able to play the qualifier when he was in Korea but it's not the case now.
On the other hand BSL is a global tourney which suffers from lag problem already. If you blame the Chinese for lagging BSL then might as well ban NA and SA in the process and it'd become BSL Euro.
Don't invite him to play in the first place if you know there can be lag problems and you don't want to deal with that.
Banning him because of the lag spikes after he qualifies from the harder region is just fucked up and ruins the integrity of the tournament. Weird that you can't see the clear problem here. But whatever.
On March 11 2023 01:35 TMNT wrote: I struggle to see the outcry after that Dewalt decision tbh. If it's written in the rule that a player must meet a specific network condition to play then so be it. He was able to play the qualifier when he was in Korea but it's not the case now.
On the other hand BSL is a global tourney which suffers from lag problem already. If you blame the Chinese for lagging BSL then might as well ban NA and SA in the process and it'd become BSL Euro.
Don't invite him to play in the first place if you know there can be lag problems and you don't want to deal with that.
Banning him because of the lag spikes after he qualifies from the harder region is just fucked up and ruins the integrity of the tournament. Weird that you can't see the clear problem here. But whatever.
It's too late to do anything about it anyway.
I see it as an unfortunate situation, not bad intention from the organizers (as some are implying). It could be that they invited him when he was in Korea with a view that even when he left, the latency would still be okay. In the end it was not the case. Forfeiting was harsh but letting him play would create another problem with integrity of the tournament as well. There were really no good choices.
But what I don't see is the outcry after that decision. Look at Ultra's post for example. As if the Chinese deliberately try to ruin BSL with something BSL already had.
South America invites Europe and NA to their events.
North America invites Europe and SA to their events
Europe invites China, NA, and SA to their events.
China invites no one, and how dare you ask for an invite.
I remember early on when I noted the unfairness of allowing Chinese players in BSL, when Chinese tournaments don't allow foreigners in their tournaments, there was a guy who raged out at me for it in the BSL discord. The guy then lied and said that China had no online only tournaments (lol).
On March 11 2023 03:25 Hawk2 wrote: South America invites Europe and NA to their events.
North America invites Europe and SA to their events
Europe invites China, NA, and SA to their events.
China invites no one, and how dare you ask for an invite.
I remember early on when I noted the unfairness of allowing Chinese players in BSL, when Chinese tournaments don't allow foreigners in their tournaments, there was a guy who raged out at me for it in the BSL discord. The guy then lied and said that China had no online only tournaments (lol).
The whole situation is ridiculous on its face.
Probably the Izu guy from china, he called me a racist for some reason as well.
On March 11 2023 01:35 TMNT wrote: I struggle to see the outcry after that Dewalt decision tbh. If it's written in the rule that a player must meet a specific network condition to play then so be it. He was able to play the qualifier when he was in Korea but it's not the case now.
On the other hand BSL is a global tourney which suffers from lag problem already. If you blame the Chinese for lagging BSL then might as well ban NA and SA in the process and it'd become BSL Euro.
Don't invite him to play in the first place if you know there can be lag problems and you don't want to deal with that.
Banning him because of the lag spikes after he qualifies from the harder region is just fucked up and ruins the integrity of the tournament. Weird that you can't see the clear problem here. But whatever.
It's too late to do anything about it anyway.
I see it as an unfortunate situation, not bad intention from the organizers (as some are implying). It could be that they invited him when he was in Korea with a view that even when he left, the latency would still be okay. In the end it was not the case. Forfeiting was harsh but letting him play would create another problem with integrity of the tournament as well. There were really no good choices.
But what I don't see is the outcry after that decision. Look at Ultra's post for example. As if the Chinese deliberately try to ruin BSL with something BSL already had.
Let's be honest here - if it was a chinese or korean player lagging for any reason at that point, he would not get DQed.
I'm pretty certain of that.
They could have easily rescheduled, as it was done in MANY tournaments for MANY reasons before. If you can't/don't want to deal with lag, don't invite potentially lagging players in the first place. Simple.
On March 11 2023 03:25 Hawk2 wrote: South America invites Europe and NA to their events.
North America invites Europe and SA to their events
Europe invites China, NA, and SA to their events.
China invites no one, and how dare you ask for an invite.
I remember early on when I noted the unfairness of allowing Chinese players in BSL, when Chinese tournaments don't allow foreigners in their tournaments, there was a guy who raged out at me for it in the BSL discord. The guy then lied and said that China had no online only tournaments (lol).
The whole situation is ridiculous on its face.
+1 to this. Always thought this is a very valid point.
It is kind of disgusting and makes me want to watch BSL less, ngl.
Historically, Chinese players have almost always played in Foreign tournaments. PJ, RushGoon, Legend, etc. There's nothing new about it and I've personally never had a problem with it. I've had more of an issue when a Korean pro or semi-pro moved to the States or something for college and then would crush our WCG or get allowed in foreign tournaments because they were living abroad and would proceed to absolutely crush every tournament they played in. That always felt like bullshit to me but whatevs.
On March 11 2023 18:22 G5 wrote: Historically, Chinese players have almost always played in Foreign tournaments. PJ, RushGoon, Legend, etc. There's nothing new about it and I've personally never had a problem with it. I've had more of an issue when a Korean pro or semi-pro moved to the States or something for college and then would crush our WCG or get allowed in foreign tournaments because they were living abroad and would proceed to absolutely crush every tournament they played in. That always felt like bullshit to me but whatevs.
which exact tournaments did the chinese play? I don't really remember that at all, tbh.
they were always doing their own stuff, except PGL and IEF
On March 11 2023 18:22 G5 wrote: Historically, Chinese players have almost always played in Foreign tournaments. PJ, RushGoon, Legend, etc. There's nothing new about it and I've personally never had a problem with it. I've had more of an issue when a Korean pro or semi-pro moved to the States or something for college and then would crush our WCG or get allowed in foreign tournaments because they were living abroad and would proceed to absolutely crush every tournament they played in. That always felt like bullshit to me but whatevs.
I know you mean NA qualifier but "our World Cyber Games" sounds funny...
Isn't the fact of the matter that some1 will have to play vs korean pro eventually in the WCG?
So what does it matter if it's earlier or later in the tournament?
Isn't the ability to play koreans in low lag conditions precisely the thing that would improve foreigners?
On March 11 2023 03:25 Hawk2 wrote: South America invites Europe and NA to their events.
North America invites Europe and SA to their events
Europe invites China, NA, and SA to their events.
China invites no one, and how dare you ask for an invite.
I remember early on when I noted the unfairness of allowing Chinese players in BSL, when Chinese tournaments don't allow foreigners in their tournaments, there was a guy who raged out at me for it in the BSL discord. The guy then lied and said that China had no online only tournaments (lol).
The whole situation is ridiculous on its face.
Good point but I don't see players boycotting BSL over this?
To me this says it's not a big enough deal for you.
I think viewers would like to see the best of the best.
So if tournaments in China don't invite foreigners (apart from Koreans who have dominated every single tournament in China they were invited to) then that is a loss for the quality of that tournament in my opinion (in situations where lag would not be a big issue). But it seems it is a big issue. ^_._^
On March 11 2023 03:25 Hawk2 wrote: South America invites Europe and NA to their events.
North America invites Europe and SA to their events
Europe invites China, NA, and SA to their events.
China invites no one, and how dare you ask for an invite.
I remember early on when I noted the unfairness of allowing Chinese players in BSL, when Chinese tournaments don't allow foreigners in their tournaments, there was a guy who raged out at me for it in the BSL discord. The guy then lied and said that China had no online only tournaments (lol).
The whole situation is ridiculous on its face.
+1. It holds me back from donating as much as I have in the past tbh
I think this is partly due to Chinese community having poor English.
LATAM is kind of in a similar boat, but the LATAM players make an effort to bring EU/NA viewers into their communities, and their viewers consistently show up for their players at EU/NA events.
Also, what tec27 said re: creating content beyond just high-level gameplay is absolutely true.
On March 11 2023 18:22 G5 wrote: Historically, Chinese players have almost always played in Foreign tournaments. PJ, RushGoon, Legend, etc. There's nothing new about it and I've personally never had a problem with it. I've had more of an issue when a Korean pro or semi-pro moved to the States or something for college and then would crush our WCG or get allowed in foreign tournaments because they were living abroad and would proceed to absolutely crush every tournament they played in. That always felt like bullshit to me but whatevs.
which exact tournaments did the chinese play? I don't really remember that at all, tbh.
they were always doing their own stuff, except PGL and IEF
Yeah, you're probably right. They were probably excluded more than I remember. I remember practicing a lot with guys like PJ, LX etc. and I remember them in things like IEF and big international tournaments. I probably just spent more time around them than most and remember them more than they actually were around. I suppose they were excluded from most stuff like TSL etc. now that I think about it.
Truth is though, they never felt broken. It was just the Koreans that felt like they were on a different universe.
On March 11 2023 18:22 G5 wrote: Historically, Chinese players have almost always played in Foreign tournaments. PJ, RushGoon, Legend, etc. There's nothing new about it and I've personally never had a problem with it. I've had more of an issue when a Korean pro or semi-pro moved to the States or something for college and then would crush our WCG or get allowed in foreign tournaments because they were living abroad and would proceed to absolutely crush every tournament they played in. That always felt like bullshit to me but whatevs.
I know you mean NA qualifier but "our World Cyber Games" sounds funny...
Isn't the fact of the matter that some1 will have to play vs korean pro eventually in the WCG?
So what does it matter if it's earlier or later in the tournament?
Isn't the ability to play koreans in low lag conditions precisely the thing that would improve foreigners?
Well, when I say our WCG, it truly felt like our WCG. Each country had their own WCG entity that was in charge of that country's process with their own budget etc. It was the biggest tournament for foreigners and foreigners trained especially for their WCG National Tournament each and every year.
As far as WCG USA would go, there were very few surprises as to whom would get through regional qualifiers and be there in the national finals each year and we were generally all friends and knew each other super well. IdrA, Day9, iNcontroL, Nyoken, Artosis, Nony, LzGaMeR, etc. were all staples of the national finals and that tournament was our WCG and what we competed for. No one thought they'd win the workd finals of WCG. That always went to the Koreans. Always. But to be able to say you were #1 on your country and a National Champion. That is what most of us really played for. At least, that's what I played for.
The thing I'm most proud of from my StarCraft career was winning WCG USA (especially after getting close with 2nd and 3rd place finishes the two prior years). Literally, to be able to say that at one point you were the best in your country is a huge source of pride for any gamer, olympic athlete, etc. and if a dude like Bisu decided to go to college in the states and play WCG that year, I wouldn't be able to say that I was a National Champion at something. So yeah, it does matter when you would hit the Korean (imo).
On March 11 2023 18:22 G5 wrote: Historically, Chinese players have almost always played in Foreign tournaments. PJ, RushGoon, Legend, etc. There's nothing new about it and I've personally never had a problem with it. I've had more of an issue when a Korean pro or semi-pro moved to the States or something for college and then would crush our WCG or get allowed in foreign tournaments because they were living abroad and would proceed to absolutely crush every tournament they played in. That always felt like bullshit to me but whatevs.
Isn't the ability to play koreans in low lag conditions precisely the thing that would improve foreigners?
I assume you mean improve the ability for foreigners to win? Truthfully, it wouldn't matter much. Koreans had pro-team houses where the best in the world ate, slept, and trained together non-stop for years. StarCraft was constantly on TV in Korea with 3 cable channels all-in on it. Cities like Seoul had a PC room on every other block. The infrastructure and culture was beyond anything foreigners could replicate, where back in the day as a foreigner, you spent more time trying to organize quality practice games than actually playing them. It was simply not fair.
Let me use trans in MMA as an example (I have nothing against trans people, please don't get upset). In this example, Foreigners would be female MMA fighters and Koreans would be the male MMA fighters. Just as Men have natural advantages like boosted testosterone (literally a human growth hormone) etc., Koreans have natural advantages from their infrastructure and culture. If a Korean, after years of training to be a pro in Korea, hoped into a foreign tournament, it would be like a professional male MMA hoping into a professional female MMA league and beating the literal shit out of every woman because those natural advantages are literally just unfair.
You'll have foreigners win here and there in StarCraft. Hell, I beat a former #1 in the world Korean in an offline tournament once, but there was no way in hell I'm better than him and there's no way in hell foreigners would win vs Koreans consistently. It just was a different level.
Which Korean pro or semi-pro gamer went to the US and played WCG though?
You seem to elaborate your thoughts a lot on this matter but as far as I know there was literally none (and none of them went to college anyway for that matter). Seems like too much fuss over a hypothetical situation.
On March 11 2023 18:22 G5 wrote: Historically, Chinese players have almost always played in Foreign tournaments. PJ, RushGoon, Legend, etc. There's nothing new about it and I've personally never had a problem with it. I've had more of an issue when a Korean pro or semi-pro moved to the States or something for college and then would crush our WCG or get allowed in foreign tournaments because they were living abroad and would proceed to absolutely crush every tournament they played in. That always felt like bullshit to me but whatevs.
I know you mean NA qualifier but "our World Cyber Games" sounds funny...
Isn't the fact of the matter that some1 will have to play vs korean pro eventually in the WCG?
So what does it matter if it's earlier or later in the tournament?
Isn't the ability to play koreans in low lag conditions precisely the thing that would improve foreigners?
Well, when I say our WCG, it truly felt like our WCG. Each country had their own WCG entity that was in charge of that country's process with their own budget etc. It was the biggest tournament for foreigners and foreigners trained especially for their WCG National Tournament each and every year.
As far as WCG USA would go, there were very few surprises as to whom would get through regional qualifiers and be there in the national finals each year and we were generally all friends and knew each other super well. IdrA, Day9, iNcontroL, Nyoken, Artosis, Nony, LzGaMeR, etc. were all staples of the national finals and that tournament was our WCG and what we competed for. No one thought they'd win the workd finals of WCG. That always went to the Koreans. Always. But to be able to say you were #1 on your country and a National Champion. That is what most of us really played for. At least, that's what I played for.
The thing I'm most proud of from my StarCraft career was winning WCG USA (especially after getting close with 2nd and 3rd place finishes the two prior years). Literally, to be able to say that at one point you were the best in your country is a huge source of pride for any gamer, olympic athlete, etc. and if a dude like Bisu decided to go to college in the states and play WCG that year, I wouldn't be able to say that I was a National Champion at something. So yeah, it does matter when you would hit the Korean (imo).
I checked and from 2003 to 2010 there wasn't a single korean in the US qualifiers and the Pan-American World Cyber Games Which leaves 2000, 2001 and 2002 which I can't find info on for korean nationals to have won em (at worst be 3 vs 8).
But I get your point and that should be expressed by the players to the organizers.
I see there were good monetary prizes too which should not be discounted either.
On March 11 2023 18:22 G5 wrote: Historically, Chinese players have almost always played in Foreign tournaments. PJ, RushGoon, Legend, etc. There's nothing new about it and I've personally never had a problem with it. I've had more of an issue when a Korean pro or semi-pro moved to the States or something for college and then would crush our WCG or get allowed in foreign tournaments because they were living abroad and would proceed to absolutely crush every tournament they played in. That always felt like bullshit to me but whatevs.
Isn't the ability to play koreans in low lag conditions precisely the thing that would improve foreigners?
I assume you mean improve the ability for foreigners to win? Truthfully, it wouldn't matter much. Koreans had pro-team houses where the best in the world ate, slept, and trained together non-stop for years. StarCraft was constantly on TV in Korea with 3 cable channels all-in on it. Cities like Seoul had a PC room on every other block. The infrastructure and culture was beyond anything foreigners could replicate, where back in the day as a foreigner, you spent more time trying to organize quality practice games than actually playing them. It was simply not fair.
Let me use trans in MMA as an example (I have nothing against trans people, please don't get upset). In this example, Foreigners would be female MMA fighters and Koreans would be the male MMA fighters. Just as Men have natural advantages like boosted testosterone (literally a human growth hormone) etc., Koreans have natural advantages from their infrastructure and culture. If a Korean, after years of training to be a pro in Korea, hoped into a foreign tournament, it would be like a professional male MMA hoping into a professional female MMA league and beating the literal shit out of every woman because those natural advantages are literally just unfair.
You'll have foreigners win here and there in StarCraft. Hell, I beat a former #1 in the world Korean in an offline tournament once, but there was no way in hell I'm better than him and there's no way in hell foreigners would win vs Koreans consistently. It just was a different level.
I don't think it's a good comparison first of all. I think if foreigners were put in the same conditions as koreans they would perform the same. I think any infrastructure and culture can be overcome in reasonably short time. While I think genetical predisposition would be harder to overcome but I haven't done the research or scientific studies on either I gotta admit (if you were wondering kek).
On March 11 2023 18:22 G5 wrote: Historically, Chinese players have almost always played in Foreign tournaments. PJ, RushGoon, Legend, etc. There's nothing new about it and I've personally never had a problem with it. I've had more of an issue when a Korean pro or semi-pro moved to the States or something for college and then would crush our WCG or get allowed in foreign tournaments because they were living abroad and would proceed to absolutely crush every tournament they played in. That always felt like bullshit to me but whatevs.
I know you mean NA qualifier but "our World Cyber Games" sounds funny...
Isn't the fact of the matter that some1 will have to play vs korean pro eventually in the WCG?
So what does it matter if it's earlier or later in the tournament?
Isn't the ability to play koreans in low lag conditions precisely the thing that would improve foreigners?
Well, when I say our WCG, it truly felt like our WCG. Each country had their own WCG entity that was in charge of that country's process with their own budget etc. It was the biggest tournament for foreigners and foreigners trained especially for their WCG National Tournament each and every year.
As far as WCG USA would go, there were very few surprises as to whom would get through regional qualifiers and be there in the national finals each year and we were generally all friends and knew each other super well. IdrA, Day9, iNcontroL, Nyoken, Artosis, Nony, LzGaMeR, etc. were all staples of the national finals and that tournament was our WCG and what we competed for. No one thought they'd win the workd finals of WCG. That always went to the Koreans. Always. But to be able to say you were #1 on your country and a National Champion. That is what most of us really played for. At least, that's what I played for.
The thing I'm most proud of from my StarCraft career was winning WCG USA (especially after getting close with 2nd and 3rd place finishes the two prior years). Literally, to be able to say that at one point you were the best in your country is a huge source of pride for any gamer, olympic athlete, etc. and if a dude like Bisu decided to go to college in the states and play WCG that year, I wouldn't be able to say that I was a National Champion at something. So yeah, it does matter when you would hit the Korean (imo).
I checked and from 2003 to 2010 there wasn't a single korean in the US qualifiers and the Pan-American World Cyber Games Which leaves 2000, 2001 and 2002 which I can't find info on for korean nationals to have won em (at worst be 3 vs 8).
But I get your point and that should be expressed by the players to the organizers.
I see there were good monetary prizes too which should not be discounted either.
It is just a point I'm making. There definitely have been online "foreign" tournaments that allowed guys like Scan play which ended as you'd expect. As long as the point is clear and makes sense, the rest doesn't really matter I suppose.
With that said though, similar things have happened. I could be wrong (was so long ago) but if I remember correctly, LastGosu was a Korean that came to the States. Not even a pro or semi-pro but grew up in that Korea and won WCG USA (2007 maybe?). I remember he was in a group with Nyoken and myself and he won the group then beat Day9 in the finals to win it all, denying Day his 3rd(?) US championship. I liked him, partied with him, and have nothing against the guy. But he was clearly from Korea and came over and beat us all lol.
On March 11 2023 03:25 Hawk2 wrote: South America invites Europe and NA to their events.
North America invites Europe and SA to their events
Europe invites China, NA, and SA to their events.
China invites no one, and how dare you ask for an invite.
I remember early on when I noted the unfairness of allowing Chinese players in BSL, when Chinese tournaments don't allow foreigners in their tournaments, there was a guy who raged out at me for it in the BSL discord. The guy then lied and said that China had no online only tournaments (lol).
The whole situation is ridiculous on its face.
Good point but I don't see players boycotting BSL over this?
To me this says it's not a big enough deal for you.
I think viewers would like to see the best of the best.
So if tournaments in China don't invite foreigners (apart from Koreans who have dominated every single tournament in China they were invited to) then that is a loss for the quality of that tournament in my opinion (in situations where lag would not be a big issue). But it seems it is a big issue. ^_._^
What about viewers boycotting BSL over this? This thread started about $$$ so we should focus on what the viewers want.
At least for me, I get more enthusiastic watching NA/EU players than Chinese. 1) There are already enough Asian tournaments, I like that BSL have previously focused on NA/EU 2) There's no extra content when watching Chinese players. No interviews or whatever 3) I dislike that we allow their lag but they banned Dewalt over lag
I might be alone with my views. But just to be clear, I have nothing against China. I even have a Chinese wife. I'm just giving my opinion on related to BSL. And since this topic started about $$$‚ we should focus on what the viewers want.
On March 11 2023 18:22 G5 wrote: Historically, Chinese players have almost always played in Foreign tournaments. PJ, RushGoon, Legend, etc. There's nothing new about it and I've personally never had a problem with it. I've had more of an issue when a Korean pro or semi-pro moved to the States or something for college and then would crush our WCG or get allowed in foreign tournaments because they were living abroad and would proceed to absolutely crush every tournament they played in. That always felt like bullshit to me but whatevs.
I know you mean NA qualifier but "our World Cyber Games" sounds funny...
Isn't the fact of the matter that some1 will have to play vs korean pro eventually in the WCG?
So what does it matter if it's earlier or later in the tournament?
Isn't the ability to play koreans in low lag conditions precisely the thing that would improve foreigners?
Well, when I say our WCG, it truly felt like our WCG. Each country had their own WCG entity that was in charge of that country's process with their own budget etc. It was the biggest tournament for foreigners and foreigners trained especially for their WCG National Tournament each and every year.
As far as WCG USA would go, there were very few surprises as to whom would get through regional qualifiers and be there in the national finals each year and we were generally all friends and knew each other super well. IdrA, Day9, iNcontroL, Nyoken, Artosis, Nony, LzGaMeR, etc. were all staples of the national finals and that tournament was our WCG and what we competed for. No one thought they'd win the workd finals of WCG. That always went to the Koreans. Always. But to be able to say you were #1 on your country and a National Champion. That is what most of us really played for. At least, that's what I played for.
The thing I'm most proud of from my StarCraft career was winning WCG USA (especially after getting close with 2nd and 3rd place finishes the two prior years). Literally, to be able to say that at one point you were the best in your country is a huge source of pride for any gamer, olympic athlete, etc. and if a dude like Bisu decided to go to college in the states and play WCG that year, I wouldn't be able to say that I was a National Champion at something. So yeah, it does matter when you would hit the Korean (imo).
I checked and from 2003 to 2010 there wasn't a single korean in the US qualifiers and the Pan-American World Cyber Games Which leaves 2000, 2001 and 2002 which I can't find info on for korean nationals to have won em (at worst be 3 vs 8).
But I get your point and that should be expressed by the players to the organizers.
I see there were good monetary prizes too which should not be discounted either.
It is just a point I'm making. There definitely have been online "foreign" tournaments that allowed guys like Scan play which ended as you'd expect. As long as the point is clear and makes sense, the rest doesn't really matter I suppose.
With that said though, similar things have happened. I could be wrong (was so long ago) but if I remember correctly, LastGosu was a Korean that came to the States. Not even a pro or semi-pro but grew up in that Korea and won WCG USA (2007 maybe?). I remember he was in a group with Nyoken and myself and he won the group then beat Day9 in the finals to win it all, denying Day his 3rd(?) US championship. I liked him, partied with him, and have nothing against the guy. But he was clearly from Korea and came over and beat us all lol.
Yeah I suspected it was LastGosu actually but didn't find anything on him... And they gave him US flag on liquipedia.
I just checked Scan's page and it says Rivalry with Sziky 17 - 26 Scan which I would partially attribute to Tesagi.
The hard question is:
If a foreigner goes to Korea and starts dominating everything and gets banned for it would you support the ban?
I think NOT. ^_._^ But ofc no way to test it (and even if they would have a ban).
On March 11 2023 03:25 Hawk2 wrote: South America invites Europe and NA to their events.
North America invites Europe and SA to their events
Europe invites China, NA, and SA to their events.
China invites no one, and how dare you ask for an invite.
I remember early on when I noted the unfairness of allowing Chinese players in BSL, when Chinese tournaments don't allow foreigners in their tournaments, there was a guy who raged out at me for it in the BSL discord. The guy then lied and said that China had no online only tournaments (lol).
The whole situation is ridiculous on its face.
Good point but I don't see players boycotting BSL over this?
To me this says it's not a big enough deal for you.
I think viewers would like to see the best of the best.
So if tournaments in China don't invite foreigners (apart from Koreans who have dominated every single tournament in China they were invited to) then that is a loss for the quality of that tournament in my opinion (in situations where lag would not be a big issue). But it seems it is a big issue. ^_._^
What about viewers boycotting BSL over this? This thread started about $$$ so we should focus on what the viewers want.
At least for me, I get more enthusiastic watching NA/EU players than Chinese. 1) There are already enough Asian tournaments, I like that BSL have previously focused on NA/EU 2) There's no extra content when watching Chinese players. No interviews or whatever 3) I dislike that we allow their lag but they banned Dewalt over lag
I might be alone with my views. But just to be clear, I have nothing against China. I even have a Chinese wife. I'm just giving my opinion on related to BSL. And since this topic started about $$$‚ we should focus on what the viewers want.
And in how many of those tournaments we can see asian vs other players (don't forget SA)?
As a viewer I LOVE having more players get to the top. Bony StarLeague got repetitive after the 4th time... ; D While I HATE Tesagi wins it's been Pusagi in BSL so it's a welcome change... If we get a Sziky victory that would be amazing!
On March 11 2023 01:35 TMNT wrote: I struggle to see the outcry after that Dewalt decision tbh. If it's written in the rule that a player must meet a specific network condition to play then so be it. He was able to play the qualifier when he was in Korea but it's not the case now.
On the other hand BSL is a global tourney which suffers from lag problem already. If you blame the Chinese for lagging BSL then might as well ban NA and SA in the process and it'd become BSL Euro.
Don't invite him to play in the first place if you know there can be lag problems and you don't want to deal with that.
Banning him because of the lag spikes after he qualifies from the harder region is just fucked up and ruins the integrity of the tournament. Weird that you can't see the clear problem here. But whatever.
It's too late to do anything about it anyway.
I see it as an unfortunate situation, not bad intention from the organizers (as some are implying). It could be that they invited him when he was in Korea with a view that even when he left, the latency would still be okay. In the end it was not the case. Forfeiting was harsh but letting him play would create another problem with integrity of the tournament as well. There were really no good choices.
But what I don't see is the outcry after that decision. Look at Ultra's post for example. As if the Chinese deliberately try to ruin BSL with something BSL already had.
Let's be honest here - if it was a chinese or korean player lagging for any reason at that point, he would not get DQed.
I'm pretty certain of that.
They could have easily rescheduled, as it was done in MANY tournaments for MANY reasons before. If you can't/don't want to deal with lag, don't invite potentially lagging players in the first place. Simple.
You are so biased that you "are certain" of your speculation without firsthand data. In the very same Chinese tournament where Dewalt was forfeited, a Chinese player who qualified, Slytherin, also got his position forfeited due to network latency issue.
When Dewalt was invited, he was in SKorea and had no latency. The assumption was that he would remain in SK throughout the tournament, which didn't turn out to be the case. If he was anywhere else with high latency to begin with, he wouldn't have been invited in the first place.
Like BSL inviting Chinese players, the Chinese scene is interested in inviting foreign players, provided they have low latency. Besides the aforementioned tournament, Dewalt was also invited to several Chinese 4x4 proleagues when he had low latency in SK.
If im not mistaken BSL never been this competitive before. They probably lag the same than does Peru and Chile.
And even if Chinese organizer dont allow foreigners cuz latency. Is BSL and their admins decisions to allow such thing into their tourney. Im pretty sure those chineses dont wanna play in such lag either and at a terrible time slot. If you think about it they doing BSL a favor. (didnt Mihu donate his prizes ? ) I honestly think BSL never been this big and competitive but some viewers and it seems some players hate it.
Lol okay so there was also a Chinese player who moved to Japan (which probably still has better latency to China than Kazakhstan) who was disqualified because he didn't meet the network demand.
Their tournament their rules. Applied to everyone.
for Chinese players in the foreign scene, there were a lot in WGTour as well, CL, ladder and cups. ToT had chinese players, I had fengzi and chinaTT in my team too for a while. BWCL same (and still ok though it was a niche case for the longest time). We had the taiwanese too (sen was amazing), I even admined nation wars vs China. For most leagues and competition the limit was whether you were in a pro environment. So PJ for instance was a grey area, Ret/Idra/NonY too. But there were so few it wasnt worth tweaking the rules, better have such players in and keep practicing/playing in our community. With the death of Kespa-led tournaments that easy distinction died and now it is not so easy as it once was. Now you could argue a lot of chinese players are, in effect, pro: well paid salary in well paid competition in chinese pro teams. Rules might need updating for sure and it s good to have those discussions, but without the conspiracy theories please.
On March 12 2023 09:14 TMNT wrote: Lol okay so there was also a Chinese player who moved to Japan (which probably still has better latency to China than Kazakhstan) who was disqualified because he didn't meet the network demand.
Their tournament their rules. Applied to everyone.
I guess some people can stop being salty now.
Less salty about Dewalt, still a bit salty about the rules overall.
On March 12 2023 09:14 TMNT wrote: Lol okay so there was also a Chinese player who moved to Japan (which probably still has better latency to China than Kazakhstan) who was disqualified because he didn't meet the network demand.
Their tournament their rules. Applied to everyone.
I guess some people can stop being salty now.
Less salty about Dewalt, still a bit salty about the rules overall.
But whatever.
I think ppl need to be more open-minded about the whole "China invites no one" thing.
Historically, Korea has always been the cradle of BW. They set the standards for organization, training, even gameplay. The best players are already there. They don't need to play with the rest of the world to improve anything. They're the NBA of BW. And playing at low latency is the bare minimum for them to maintain these standards.
China, being next to Korea, adopts the same standards. They have a large player base as well, and huge funding potential. And they get to play with Koreans at low latency to improve their game. Add to that the facts that the Chinese internet community is almost isolated with the world. They don't use facebook, twitter, reddit, or twitch. Most of them don't even speak English.
Connecting with the rest of the world in BW is neither a necessity, nor an easy thing for Chinese to do.
Do you ever think you can convince the Koreans, the likes of Flash Bisu JD, to lower their standards and play BW in anything other than TR24 low? It's the same for China.
On March 12 2023 09:14 TMNT wrote: Lol okay so there was also a Chinese player who moved to Japan (which probably still has better latency to China than Kazakhstan) who was disqualified because he didn't meet the network demand.
Their tournament their rules. Applied to everyone.
I guess some people can stop being salty now.
Less salty about Dewalt, still a bit salty about the rules overall.
But whatever.
I think ppl need to be more open-minded about the whole "China invites no one" thing.
Historically, Korea has always been the cradle of BW. They set the standards for organization, training, even gameplay. The best players are already there. They don't need to play with the rest of the world to improve anything. They're the NBA of BW. And playing at low latency is the bare minimum for them to maintain these standards.
China, being next to Korea, adopts the same standards. They have a large player base as well, and huge funding potential. And they get to play with Koreans at low latency to improve their game. Add to that the facts that the Chinese internet community is almost isolated with the world. They don't use facebook, twitter, reddit, or twitch. Most of them don't even speak English.
Connecting with the rest of the world in BW is neither a necessity, nor an easy thing for Chinese to do.
Do you ever think you can convince the Koreans, the likes of Flash Bisu JD, to lower their standards and play BW in anything other than TR24 low? It's the same for China.
they seem totally fine playing in bsl with bad lat LOL
On March 12 2023 08:16 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Im not sure why the focus is vs China now.
If im not mistaken BSL never been this competitive before. They probably lag the same than does Peru and Chile.
And even if Chinese organizer dont allow foreigners cuz latency. Is BSL and their admins decisions to allow such thing into their tourney. Im pretty sure those chineses dont wanna play in such lag either and at a terrible time slot. If you think about it they doing BSL a favor. (didnt Mihu donate his prizes ? ) I honestly think BSL never been this big and competitive but some viewers and it seems some players hate it.
+1, i love that the chinese arrived, they play a totally different game than EU/NA/SA, so nice to actually see some different builds
On March 12 2023 09:14 TMNT wrote: Lol okay so there was also a Chinese player who moved to Japan (which probably still has better latency to China than Kazakhstan) who was disqualified because he didn't meet the network demand.
Their tournament their rules. Applied to everyone.
I guess some people can stop being salty now.
Less salty about Dewalt, still a bit salty about the rules overall.
But whatever.
I think ppl need to be more open-minded about the whole "China invites no one" thing.
Historically, Korea has always been the cradle of BW. They set the standards for organization, training, even gameplay. The best players are already there. They don't need to play with the rest of the world to improve anything. They're the NBA of BW. And playing at low latency is the bare minimum for them to maintain these standards.
China, being next to Korea, adopts the same standards. They have a large player base as well, and huge funding potential. And they get to play with Koreans at low latency to improve their game. Add to that the facts that the Chinese internet community is almost isolated with the world. They don't use facebook, twitter, reddit, or twitch. Most of them don't even speak English.
Connecting with the rest of the world in BW is neither a necessity, nor an easy thing for Chinese to do.
Do you ever think you can convince the Koreans, the likes of Flash Bisu JD, to lower their standards and play BW in anything other than TR24 low? It's the same for China.
they seem totally fine playing in bsl with bad lat LOL
I'm sure they suffer from bad lat in BSL, as well as having to play at 1 am throughout the night. Most of them go to bed before midnight in their daily routine.
As someone pointed out, BSL has never been this competitive as a result. How many times have we seen the final round between Bonyth and Dewalt before? Is this what people enjoy watching over and over again?
If you are familiar with the Chinese scene, sponsored matches are being played on a daily basis, and some star players make BSL top4 level prize from spot bonus just for winning one key match alone. Many players choose to participate in BSL for the sake of creating bonds with the foreign scene. Mihu even donated his BSL winner prize back to the community.
On March 12 2023 09:14 TMNT wrote: Lol okay so there was also a Chinese player who moved to Japan (which probably still has better latency to China than Kazakhstan) who was disqualified because he didn't meet the network demand.
Their tournament their rules. Applied to everyone.
I guess some people can stop being salty now.
Less salty about Dewalt, still a bit salty about the rules overall.
But whatever.
I think ppl need to be more open-minded about the whole "China invites no one" thing.
Historically, Korea has always been the cradle of BW. They set the standards for organization, training, even gameplay. The best players are already there. They don't need to play with the rest of the world to improve anything. They're the NBA of BW. And playing at low latency is the bare minimum for them to maintain these standards.
China, being next to Korea, adopts the same standards. They have a large player base as well, and huge funding potential. And they get to play with Koreans at low latency to improve their game. Add to that the facts that the Chinese internet community is almost isolated with the world. They don't use facebook, twitter, reddit, or twitch. Most of them don't even speak English.
Connecting with the rest of the world in BW is neither a necessity, nor an easy thing for Chinese to do.
Do you ever think you can convince the Koreans, the likes of Flash Bisu JD, to lower their standards and play BW in anything other than TR24 low? It's the same for China.
they seem totally fine playing in bsl with bad lat LOL
Keep fixating on this point and you'll never see the bigger picture. It's almost a childish thing "you get to play my toys I get to play yours".
Did they make BSL change any existing rules to accommodate them? No. Did they make BSL lag any worse than it did before? No. Did they improve the quality of BSL? Yes. Did you see donations to BSL from China? A few. Keep in mind that Chinese viewers don't have access to twitch and can't even watch their players play. Most probably aren't aware of BSL.
They only joined BSL recently, while NA SA EU have been playing each other for decades. The world didn't even know China has a strong BW scene until over a year ago. It takes time to build a bridge. They only have local tournaments before and some China-Korea events, all at low latency. You can't expect the moment Chinese players join BSL, China immediately bends their existing rules to reciprocate.
If you want to remove China from BSL to get back at them, because it seems "fair", do it. I'm pretty sure it's a net negative to the foreign scene.
2014-11-30 This is the first and last Tour what we had an invitation for one Chinese tour ( me + Eon. ) they promised more even then. I still don't understand one thing guys: you know very well write and campaign the about so that China plays in bsl. but why didn't they talk about that we can participated in at least 1-2 Chinese tournaments????????? really thanks guys..................
It's absurd how this thread transformed from supporting Zzzero to China vs foreign community.
It's also disappointing how some people would repeatedly speculate & cast unfounded blames and refuse to learn from the facts that people share in this thread.
Because they don't need us, we need them and whining like little girls or attacking them cuz blame China is not heading nowhere, what is the end game? lets instead move forward from all nonsense and build our connections with them stronger.
On March 13 2023 07:10 jchassoul wrote: Because they don't need us, we need them and whining like little girls or attacking them cuz blame China is not heading nowhere, what is the end game? lets instead move forward from all nonsense and build our connections with them stronger.
excuse me MR. idk who is, tough guy! before the Chinese players join the BSL there were 13 seasons before it.
who cares? and how that entail you anything? why u even talk like u deserve to be invited? hope they open qualifications for all foreigners so you can play with everyone else.
China's competition welcomes any European and American players. Sanpao said a lot of similar things during the live broadcast, but the biggest problem is not the problem of jet lag, but the problem of the network. As long as the network is OK, we are very welcome to participate in China's competition.
Due to network problems, including the expulsion of Chinese players and South Korean players, Chinese competitions are not targeted at anyone and any country.
Any competition organizer hopes that the competition organized by himself will be full of competitiveness. With more style players, the competition will also be more exciting. Otherwise, it is meaningless for the audience to watch one person win the championship every day, and it is also meaningless for the final to be a match between two people forever.
As an audience, I particularly expect Dewalt Sziky Bonyth to participate in the Chinese competition, but the network problem is really difficult to solve, unless you live in China or South Korea.
When Chinese players and foreign players play against each other, the audience will sponsor a large amount of bonus. Chinese players are also looking forward to European and American players joining in their competition. Dozens of China-South Korea contests have been held. only One night, Mihu's sponsorship award reached 40000 rmb, equivalent to 3-4 BSL champions.
The group match caicai of CSL only won mihu and fengzi, and the audience's sponsorship award is also equivalent to the award of 3-4 BSL champions.
If the top players from Europe and the United States come to China to participate in the competition, it is very beneficial for Chinese players to get very high rewards. The reward for a day's competition may be higher than that for winning the championship.
The organizers of the competition hope that the top players from Europe and the United States will participate in the competition in order to make the competition more exciting. The Chinese players also hope that the top players from Europe and the United States will participate in the competition in order to obtain high sponsorship awards. The Chinese audience also hope that the top players from Europe and the United States will participate in the competition in order to see more exciting competitions and see more styles.
I can say that as a Zerg player if u play tr24high (today it's tr14-t16 nothing to talk about) and if loses, not because of latency, completely okay from a player's point of view, and will not affect the game ( yes, a little yes ). but the better player will win. This is why hard to accept, of course, I realized a long time ago that I will never participate in Chinese competitions so all good .
I just signed up as a patreon because I want BSL to stay alive. It's necessary for foreign BW to stay alive. Eventho SC should be considered a dead game in EU/NA/SA. If companies arent willing to invest, and if the prizepools arent big enough for players to be able to make a living from it, then IMO it's dead.
There have been many topics in this thread that are just plain stupid imo.
First of all, Artosis has made a brand out of himself. People dont care what he does on stream as long as he streams and rages. I love watching him and tasteless commentating SC, not because their knowledge is the best, but because they are professionals and entertaining. They make kick ass production and their streams are clean and they know exactly what to do, and it comes from alot of experience. Even if Nyoken and the others are great casters and they have great knowledge, it's still not on the same level when it comes to procution wich is why people without any knowledge rather watch Artosis and Tasteless. It's just that much greater to watch.
Second, chinese to be or not to be in BSL. Since there are so much money in the chinese and korean scene we cant really compare our community to theirs. As someone above claimed. They dont need us, but we need them. We have 250 players in BSL, that just shows how small our community is if our biggest tournament/league cant get more participants than that. Then as someone else also claimed above. Chines community would love to have our players joining their tournaments and leagues IF we can play or TR24 low. If not, then we're not welcome, plain and simple. Nothing to whine about, if you wanna play in their leagues, go to China. If you cant afford it, start a patreon and beg for money. If it wasnt for them it would be Dewalt vs Bonyth bo9 every BSL final.
Third, I have waited a long time to become a patreon, simply because I dont like this concept. When great people dedicate their time to host tournaments, leagues and other events for free then I gladly ship in with whatever I can afford to show my appreciation. But when my donation is to pay someones wage (his/her way for making a living) then I'm not really a supporter anymore, then my payment should be regarded as an owner in the company. I also should demand transperancy. What do I get from paying this wage?
As an example (ONLY AN EXAMPLE) A full time job in sweden is 40h/week. For that i earn 2800€/month. Average wage in Sweden is 3500€. Average wage in upper class in Poland according to polish statistics is 5275PLN, that's around 1000€. So the community now pays the double amount of the average upper clas wage in Poland to ZZZero, wich means we should demand (this is Swedish standards) 40h of work/week from our employee (wich is ZZZero).
Now I know there is alot of work for the production of each cast in BSL. And also gathering players, setup times and so on. But this isnt anything extraordinary. People have done this for free for 25 years even ZZZero. This is the first time the community actually pays a person a full time wage for hosting content for the community. This also means you should expect transperancy. What do you do for 160h/month for the wage the community pays, wich in polish standards according to the amount is the double amount of upper class standards in Poland.
I really love ZZZero, he is a great person, true hero and so dedicated to the SC community. But I think this went from being a hobby where u get donations for the work u put in, to becoming a full time job where people pay you to do the job, and the payment becomes your livelihood wich puts food on the table for your family. And it went from one thing to another way to fast. A person wich is paid 1500€ a month should have to beg for more money to be able to put food on the table. He should negotiate for more money to be able to do even greater things with BSL, just like any employee would when u want a payment raise. I wonder what my boss would say if i went in and said: I need more money to able to live! Response: "lol?"
Now I've been against this whole thing because IMO, and in my heart it's not fair to the others in the community. LML in BSL who takes care of Chobo, Hasu, Gosu league. Baal of BWCL All the admins of CPL who every season come up with new ideas and functions to keep it interesting and fun. Also Qikz who singlehandledly ran STPL wich great content, production, and functions for 3 days a week.
But for the sake of the community I will start donating on Patreon. This payment doesnt create greater content or make BSL more advanced. alot of work is still manually done with "pen and paper". But it will hopefully keep BSL alive 2023.
This is just my opinion and feeling about the whole situation. And it's all written with love. <3
there is no community here, yes iam cry, but why couldn't it have been supported a little so that we could participate in 1-2 competitions?(I don't care anymore) what Dewalt vs Bonyth ? BSL8: Bony,Gory,TT1,Dandy. BSL9: Bonyth,TT,Gory,Terror. BSL10:Bony,Dewalt,Eon,Oya, BSL11:Bony,Terror,Oya,Avi. BSL12:Terror,Bonyth,TT, Sziky. BSL13:already Chinese players. why talking some shit? I expected more from you.
The average gross salary in Poland is about 6-7k PLN, not 5k. And that's average, not "upper class average". That would be closer to 20k or more, depending how you define upper class.
For ZZZero's age bracket, we're looking at 8-9.5k PLN median gross salary. If he worked in IT, he could be making 10-15k, if I'm not mistaken. His earnings from BSL are meant to be an alternative to his previous income, not let him and his family stay afloat.
I also don't think comparing Patreon to co-owning a company makes much sense. You're subscribing to a service. Buying a membership at a gym doesn't make you a co-owner. Let's be serious.
The average gross salary in Poland is about 6-7k PLN, not 5k. And that's average, not "upper class average". That would be closer to 20k or more, depending how you define upper class.
For ZZZero's age bracket, we're looking at 8-9.5k PLN median gross salary. If he worked in IT, he could be making 10-15k, if I'm not mistaken. His earnings from BSL are meant to be an alternative to his previous income, not let him and his family stay afloat.
I also don't think comparing Patreon to co-owning a company makes much sense. You're subscribing to a service. Buying a membership at a gym doesn't make you a co-owner. Let's be serious.
There are several points on his post. You're only talking about one point. The numbers could be off but he already said it was only an example. So it's 10k instead of 5k PLN. Does it matter much? The bigger point is you get the overall idea: there is a difference when the community donates to you as a thank you for your effort (part time tournament organizer) vs the community effectively pays you to do a full time job (still a tournament organizer).
The average gross salary in Poland is about 6-7k PLN, not 5k. And that's average, not "upper class average". That would be closer to 20k or more, depending how you define upper class.
For ZZZero's age bracket, we're looking at 8-9.5k PLN median gross salary. If he worked in IT, he could be making 10-15k, if I'm not mistaken. His earnings from BSL are meant to be an alternative to his previous income, not let him and his family stay afloat.
I also don't think comparing Patreon to co-owning a company makes much sense. You're subscribing to a service. Buying a membership at a gym doesn't make you a co-owner. Let's be serious.
There are several points on his post. You're only talking about one point. The numbers could be off but he already said it was only an example. So it's 10k instead of 5k PLN. Does it matter much? The bigger point is you get the overall idea: there is a difference when the community donates to you as a thank you for your effort (part time tournament organizer) vs the community effectively pays you to do a full time job (still a tournament organizer).
Of course it matters. AGge's post is painting ZZZero in a very negative light. He's essentially saying that ZZZero is trying to get stupidly rich by Polish standards while other community figures are doing similar work for free.
On March 13 2023 22:57 jchassoul wrote: He is not claiming that, he is just calling the facts, +nobody gets stupidly rich with $2500 month.
The quality of the product is not different from your standard community driven league, witch still kind of is.
The value of money is relative. AGge's claiming that ZZZero is trying to earn double the average upper class salary in Poland. That is stupidly rich. He's just horribly uninformed about the economic situation in Poland.
That's not even the point he's trying to make, transparency and production quality in exchange for maintaining whatever life standard full-time is if compared with other community driven things, but sure whine and blame AGge and the Chinese.
On March 13 2023 22:57 jchassoul wrote: He is not claiming that, he is just calling the facts, +nobody gets stupidly rich with $2500 month.
The quality of the product is not different from your standard community driven league, witch still kind of is.
The value of money is relative. AGge's claiming that ZZZero is trying to earn double the average upper class salary in Poland. That is stupidly rich. He's just horribly uninformed about the economic situation in Poland.
I dont think that was Agge point. It is well known Poland doesnt have strong economy either. Zzzero has a wife and daughter to feed so it is pretty obvious he is not getting rich from this. Agge made some really good points in his post. BW scene outside Korea/ China is super small. The viewers are not popular enough to get income from youtube or twitch. Each season ZzZero set a goal of 10k $ to make the next BSL. And then a Patreon with a goal of 2500$ to keep doing admin work full time. Unless u get a fan from Arabia or Quatar the model of the actual BSL is going to crash.
On March 13 2023 20:22 sas.Sziky wrote: there is no community here, yes iam cry, but why couldn't it have been supported a little so that we could participate in 1-2 competitions?(I don't care anymore) what Dewalt vs Bonyth ? BSL8: Bony,Gory,TT1,Dandy. BSL9: Bonyth,TT,Gory,Terror. BSL10:Bony,Dewalt,Eon,Oya, BSL11:Bony,Terror,Oya,Avi. BSL12:Terror,Bonyth,TT, Sziky. BSL13:already Chinese players. why talking some shit? I expected more from you.
Sziky my friend, I have the outmost respect for you as a person and player. I see your point. But it also kind of proves my point. The current system in BSL playoffs is flawless. It's a long period of time, but also in the end determines the best overall player, Bonyth (and Dewalt). with a Ro8 or Ro16 traditional single/double bracket there is room for players like Avi and OyA, who doesnt play more than one or two evenings a week during season. While in this format u have to play everyone in the top8 wich requires preparation and alot of games. But I might be wrong, I am not at all on the same level as anyone in Pro, Gosu or Hasu league. It's just my observation and my opinion based on what I see and how i interpret the statistics based on the top 8 players availability and activity.
Having an opinion is not talking shit, it's just just an opinion. Everyone is entitled to one. My opinion could also be that if we exclude chinese players from the tournament we might as well donate the amount of money on the patreon page straight to you, dewalt and bonyth so you can go compete in China. Since statistically with this format your three has the upperhand vs all others in the foreign scene. That would mean 800€/month for each of you.
Now that is not realistic ofcourse since we wouldnt get any entertainment value from that. Basically because china is closed for the rest of the world. Wich brings me to the next point.
On March 13 2023 23:27 maybenexttime wrote: The value of money is relative. AGge's claiming that ZZZero is trying to earn double the average upper class salary in Poland. That is stupidly rich. He's just horribly uninformed about the economic situation in Poland.
I dont claim that, thats how you interpret my post. On the contrary I think BSL is worth every penny. But are we paying for BSL as a product? Because that's what we want. But for every penny invested in the product, you also expect the product to evolve. I dont see that development from my point of view. I still think the production was better when Nyoken and Rapid was casting every week, and that was BSL8. And thats because I dont ahve the knowledge of SC, BO's and other stuff, but it was more entertaining back then. There was way more passion behind BSL,an eagerness to become better, the admin session on BSL server was alive, now it's all quiet. Last post was a month ago. It feels like it's all stressful, ZZZero needs money for his bills and food to support his family. And he deserves every penny as a person, friend, organizer, Just like everyone else that is dedicating their time to keep the community alive. But the product of BSL should be the main focus here, what is the plan for development? What new functions are we working on? What new graphics will be used? It's still the same intro, music, weird overlays, green screen chromakey setups with alot of flaws and casters going out of frame or half of them disappearing or ghosts. So for an investment of 24 000€ / year what are we investing in?
On March 13 2023 19:59 iRk-AGge wrote: I just signed up as a patreon because I want BSL to stay alive. It's necessary for foreign BW to stay alive. Eventho SC should be considered a dead game in EU/NA/SA. If companies arent willing to invest, and if the prizepools arent big enough for players to be able to make a living from it, then IMO it's dead.
There have been many topics in this thread that are just plain stupid imo.
First of all, Artosis has made a brand out of himself. People dont care what he does on stream as long as he streams and rages. I love watching him and tasteless commentating SC, not because their knowledge is the best, but because they are professionals and entertaining. They make kick ass production and their streams are clean and they know exactly what to do, and it comes from alot of experience. Even if Nyoken and the others are great casters and they have great knowledge, it's still not on the same level when it comes to procution wich is why people without any knowledge rather watch Artosis and Tasteless. It's just that much greater to watch.
Second, chinese to be or not to be in BSL. Since there are so much money in the chinese and korean scene we cant really compare our community to theirs. As someone above claimed. They dont need us, but we need them. We have 250 players in BSL, that just shows how small our community is if our biggest tournament/league cant get more participants than that. Then as someone else also claimed above. Chines community would love to have our players joining their tournaments and leagues IF we can play or TR24 low. If not, then we're not welcome, plain and simple. Nothing to whine about, if you wanna play in their leagues, go to China. If you cant afford it, start a patreon and beg for money. If it wasnt for them it would be Dewalt vs Bonyth bo9 every BSL final.
Third, I have waited a long time to become a patreon, simply because I dont like this concept. When great people dedicate their time to host tournaments, leagues and other events for free then I gladly ship in with whatever I can afford to show my appreciation. But when my donation is to pay someones wage (his/her way for making a living) then I'm not really a supporter anymore, then my payment should be regarded as an owner in the company. I also should demand transperancy. What do I get from paying this wage?
As an example (ONLY AN EXAMPLE) A full time job in sweden is 40h/week. For that i earn 2800€/month. Average wage in Sweden is 3500€. Average wage in upper class in Poland according to polish statistics is 5275PLN, that's around 1000€. So the community now pays the double amount of the average upper clas wage in Poland to ZZZero, wich means we should demand (this is Swedish standards) 40h of work/week from our employee (wich is ZZZero).
Now I know there is alot of work for the production of each cast in BSL. And also gathering players, setup times and so on. But this isnt anything extraordinary. People have done this for free for 25 years even ZZZero. This is the first time the community actually pays a person a full time wage for hosting content for the community. This also means you should expect transperancy. What do you do for 160h/month for the wage the community pays, wich in polish standards according to the amount is the double amount of upper class standards in Poland.
I really love ZZZero, he is a great person, true hero and so dedicated to the SC community. But I think this went from being a hobby where u get donations for the work u put in, to becoming a full time job where people pay you to do the job, and the payment becomes your livelihood wich puts food on the table for your family. And it went from one thing to another way to fast. A person wich is paid 1500€ a month should have to beg for more money to be able to put food on the table. He should negotiate for more money to be able to do even greater things with BSL, just like any employee would when u want a payment raise. I wonder what my boss would say if i went in and said: I need more money to able to live! Response: "lol?"
Now I've been against this whole thing because IMO, and in my heart it's not fair to the others in the community. LML in BSL who takes care of Chobo, Hasu, Gosu league. Baal of BWCL All the admins of CPL who every season come up with new ideas and functions to keep it interesting and fun. Also Qikz who singlehandledly ran STPL wich great content, production, and functions for 3 days a week.
But for the sake of the community I will start donating on Patreon. This payment doesnt create greater content or make BSL more advanced. alot of work is still manually done with "pen and paper". But it will hopefully keep BSL alive 2023.
This is just my opinion and feeling about the whole situation. And it's all written with love. <3
Be constructive people!
HOT TAKES DETECTED! haha
I've seen Tasteless twitch stream and it has ALL of his sponsors in my face (I get it but to say that's great production value I really question that...) Of course they have much bigger notoriety from other games too so good for them. I loved watching their ASL coverage when it was live Afreeca really dropped the ball there for the viewer.. But I also like Nyoken and Scan or eOn doing it for essentially free, the day of.
While I LOVE the Chinese players in BSL we certainly don't NEED them... Maybe in terms of some1 to take on Bonyth I may give you that part of it... But I would bet Chinese viewers monetary support for BSL is very little if any. Twitch is banned in China so even expanding on that market may be hard using that platform (this is something to look into from a business point of view).
Yes, it is the dream. Get paid to do what you love! (or close enough to it) I'm thankful to people who do similar things for free and also thankful to those who support such projects monetarily. The message is simple and doesn't strike me as begging in any way kek...
I think by the faulty logic w/e he's making now he can actually even survive making less if he moves to a super cheap country somewhere (not Poland). But I don't think he's looking for that.
You say it's worth every penny and then you argue against that? But a development plan could be cool to see too...
One thing everyone should understand, listen AGge:D: Chinese players actually progamers( progamers who is can living by games ) + they 100x can practice the game more easily. Europe players cant living by sc and cant play sc at the moment( bad vpn). I don't have any advantage over other eu players, they have same oportunity as me. and guys over the B rank there is no game. ( lot of A, low S rank player stopped the play for a last 1-2 years). but all ok of course :D
On March 13 2023 19:59 iRk-AGge wrote: I just signed up as a patreon because I want BSL to stay alive. It's necessary for foreign BW to stay alive. Eventho SC should be considered a dead game in EU/NA/SA. If companies arent willing to invest, and if the prizepools arent big enough for players to be able to make a living from it, then IMO it's dead.
There have been many topics in this thread that are just plain stupid imo.
First of all, Artosis has made a brand out of himself. People dont care what he does on stream as long as he streams and rages. I love watching him and tasteless commentating SC, not because their knowledge is the best, but because they are professionals and entertaining. They make kick ass production and their streams are clean and they know exactly what to do, and it comes from alot of experience. Even if Nyoken and the others are great casters and they have great knowledge, it's still not on the same level when it comes to procution wich is why people without any knowledge rather watch Artosis and Tasteless. It's just that much greater to watch.
Second, chinese to be or not to be in BSL. Since there are so much money in the chinese and korean scene we cant really compare our community to theirs. As someone above claimed. They dont need us, but we need them. We have 250 players in BSL, that just shows how small our community is if our biggest tournament/league cant get more participants than that. Then as someone else also claimed above. Chines community would love to have our players joining their tournaments and leagues IF we can play or TR24 low. If not, then we're not welcome, plain and simple. Nothing to whine about, if you wanna play in their leagues, go to China. If you cant afford it, start a patreon and beg for money. If it wasnt for them it would be Dewalt vs Bonyth bo9 every BSL final.
Third, I have waited a long time to become a patreon, simply because I dont like this concept. When great people dedicate their time to host tournaments, leagues and other events for free then I gladly ship in with whatever I can afford to show my appreciation. But when my donation is to pay someones wage (his/her way for making a living) then I'm not really a supporter anymore, then my payment should be regarded as an owner in the company. I also should demand transperancy. What do I get from paying this wage?
As an example (ONLY AN EXAMPLE) A full time job in sweden is 40h/week. For that i earn 2800€/month. Average wage in Sweden is 3500€. Average wage in upper class in Poland according to polish statistics is 5275PLN, that's around 1000€. So the community now pays the double amount of the average upper clas wage in Poland to ZZZero, wich means we should demand (this is Swedish standards) 40h of work/week from our employee (wich is ZZZero).
Now I know there is alot of work for the production of each cast in BSL. And also gathering players, setup times and so on. But this isnt anything extraordinary. People have done this for free for 25 years even ZZZero. This is the first time the community actually pays a person a full time wage for hosting content for the community. This also means you should expect transperancy. What do you do for 160h/month for the wage the community pays, wich in polish standards according to the amount is the double amount of upper class standards in Poland.
I really love ZZZero, he is a great person, true hero and so dedicated to the SC community. But I think this went from being a hobby where u get donations for the work u put in, to becoming a full time job where people pay you to do the job, and the payment becomes your livelihood wich puts food on the table for your family. And it went from one thing to another way to fast. A person wich is paid 1500€ a month should have to beg for more money to be able to put food on the table. He should negotiate for more money to be able to do even greater things with BSL, just like any employee would when u want a payment raise. I wonder what my boss would say if i went in and said: I need more money to able to live! Response: "lol?"
Now I've been against this whole thing because IMO, and in my heart it's not fair to the others in the community. LML in BSL who takes care of Chobo, Hasu, Gosu league. Baal of BWCL All the admins of CPL who every season come up with new ideas and functions to keep it interesting and fun. Also Qikz who singlehandledly ran STPL wich great content, production, and functions for 3 days a week.
But for the sake of the community I will start donating on Patreon. This payment doesnt create greater content or make BSL more advanced. alot of work is still manually done with "pen and paper". But it will hopefully keep BSL alive 2023.
This is just my opinion and feeling about the whole situation. And it's all written with love. <3
Be constructive people!
+1. Well said. Truth can be harsh, but you are brave to speak truth.
On March 13 2023 23:27 maybenexttime wrote: The value of money is relative. AGge's claiming that ZZZero is trying to earn double the average upper class salary in Poland. That is stupidly rich. He's just horribly uninformed about the economic situation in Poland.
I dont claim that, thats how you interpret my post. On the contrary I think BSL is worth every penny. But are we paying for BSL as a product? Because that's what we want. But for every penny invested in the product, you also expect the product to evolve. I dont see that development from my point of view. I still think the production was better when Nyoken and Rapid was casting every week, and that was BSL8. And thats because I dont ahve the knowledge of SC, BO's and other stuff, but it was more entertaining back then. There was way more passion behind BSL,an eagerness to become better, the admin session on BSL server was alive, now it's all quiet. Last post was a month ago. It feels like it's all stressful, ZZZero needs money for his bills and food to support his family. And he deserves every penny as a person, friend, organizer, Just like everyone else that is dedicating their time to keep the community alive. But the product of BSL should be the main focus here, what is the plan for development? What new functions are we working on? What new graphics will be used? It's still the same intro, music, weird overlays, green screen chromakey setups with alot of flaws and casters going out of frame or half of them disappearing or ghosts. So for an investment of 24 000€ / year what are we investing in?
You're not? Here's what you said:
On March 13 2023 19:59 iRk-AGge wrote:As an example (ONLY AN EXAMPLE) A full time job in sweden is 40h/week. For that i earn 2800€/month. Average wage in Sweden is 3500€. Average wage in upper class in Poland according to polish statistics is 5275PLN, that's around 1000€. So the community now pays the double amount of the average upper clas wage in Poland to ZZZero, wich means we should demand (this is Swedish standards) 40h of work/week from our employee (wich is ZZZero).
Now I know there is alot of work for the production of each cast in BSL. And also gathering players, setup times and so on. But this isnt anything extraordinary. People have done this for free for 25 years even ZZZero. This is the first time the community actually pays a person a full time wage for hosting content for the community. This also means you should expect transperancy. What do you do for 160h/month for the wage the community pays, wich in polish standards according to the amount is the double amount of upper class standards in Poland.
Your argument is based on a false premise. You're saying that ZZZero is asking for an extraordinary compensation for a product that is not extraordinary by any measure. I'm pointing out that the compensation he's asking for is not extraordinary in any way.
And, please, don't tell me that earning "the double amount of the average upper class wage" in a given country is not getting rich... It suggests that he's aiming to be a top 5% earner or something when, in fact, he's aiming for a median income for his age bracket.
On March 13 2023 19:59 iRk-AGge wrote: I just signed up as a patreon because I want BSL to stay alive. It's necessary for foreign BW to stay alive. Eventho SC should be considered a dead game in EU/NA/SA. If companies arent willing to invest, and if the prizepools arent big enough for players to be able to make a living from it, then IMO it's dead.
There have been many topics in this thread that are just plain stupid imo.
First of all, Artosis has made a brand out of himself. People dont care what he does on stream as long as he streams and rages. I love watching him and tasteless commentating SC, not because their knowledge is the best, but because they are professionals and entertaining. They make kick ass production and their streams are clean and they know exactly what to do, and it comes from alot of experience. Even if Nyoken and the others are great casters and they have great knowledge, it's still not on the same level when it comes to procution wich is why people without any knowledge rather watch Artosis and Tasteless. It's just that much greater to watch.
Second, chinese to be or not to be in BSL. Since there are so much money in the chinese and korean scene we cant really compare our community to theirs. As someone above claimed. They dont need us, but we need them. We have 250 players in BSL, that just shows how small our community is if our biggest tournament/league cant get more participants than that. Then as someone else also claimed above. Chines community would love to have our players joining their tournaments and leagues IF we can play or TR24 low. If not, then we're not welcome, plain and simple. Nothing to whine about, if you wanna play in their leagues, go to China. If you cant afford it, start a patreon and beg for money. If it wasnt for them it would be Dewalt vs Bonyth bo9 every BSL final.
Third, I have waited a long time to become a patreon, simply because I dont like this concept. When great people dedicate their time to host tournaments, leagues and other events for free then I gladly ship in with whatever I can afford to show my appreciation. But when my donation is to pay someones wage (his/her way for making a living) then I'm not really a supporter anymore, then my payment should be regarded as an owner in the company. I also should demand transperancy. What do I get from paying this wage?
As an example (ONLY AN EXAMPLE) A full time job in sweden is 40h/week. For that i earn 2800€/month. Average wage in Sweden is 3500€. Average wage in upper class in Poland according to polish statistics is 5275PLN, that's around 1000€. So the community now pays the double amount of the average upper clas wage in Poland to ZZZero, wich means we should demand (this is Swedish standards) 40h of work/week from our employee (wich is ZZZero).
Now I know there is alot of work for the production of each cast in BSL. And also gathering players, setup times and so on. But this isnt anything extraordinary. People have done this for free for 25 years even ZZZero. This is the first time the community actually pays a person a full time wage for hosting content for the community. This also means you should expect transperancy. What do you do for 160h/month for the wage the community pays, wich in polish standards according to the amount is the double amount of upper class standards in Poland.
I really love ZZZero, he is a great person, true hero and so dedicated to the SC community. But I think this went from being a hobby where u get donations for the work u put in, to becoming a full time job where people pay you to do the job, and the payment becomes your livelihood wich puts food on the table for your family. And it went from one thing to another way to fast. A person wich is paid 1500€ a month should have to beg for more money to be able to put food on the table. He should negotiate for more money to be able to do even greater things with BSL, just like any employee would when u want a payment raise. I wonder what my boss would say if i went in and said: I need more money to able to live! Response: "lol?"
Now I've been against this whole thing because IMO, and in my heart it's not fair to the others in the community. LML in BSL who takes care of Chobo, Hasu, Gosu league. Baal of BWCL All the admins of CPL who every season come up with new ideas and functions to keep it interesting and fun. Also Qikz who singlehandledly ran STPL wich great content, production, and functions for 3 days a week.
But for the sake of the community I will start donating on Patreon. This payment doesnt create greater content or make BSL more advanced. alot of work is still manually done with "pen and paper". But it will hopefully keep BSL alive 2023.
This is just my opinion and feeling about the whole situation. And it's all written with love. <3
Be constructive people!
+1. Well said. Truth can be harsh, but you are brave to speak truth.
He literally ends with "This is just my opinion and feeling about the whole situation."
IDK how you got Truth out of that... or when posting on tl.net became bravery in your mind...
On March 13 2023 19:59 iRk-AGge wrote: I just signed up as a patreon because I want BSL to stay alive. It's necessary for foreign BW to stay alive. Eventho SC should be considered a dead game in EU/NA/SA. If companies arent willing to invest, and if the prizepools arent big enough for players to be able to make a living from it, then IMO it's dead.
There have been many topics in this thread that are just plain stupid imo.
First of all, Artosis has made a brand out of himself. People dont care what he does on stream as long as he streams and rages. I love watching him and tasteless commentating SC, not because their knowledge is the best, but because they are professionals and entertaining. They make kick ass production and their streams are clean and they know exactly what to do, and it comes from alot of experience. Even if Nyoken and the others are great casters and they have great knowledge, it's still not on the same level when it comes to procution wich is why people without any knowledge rather watch Artosis and Tasteless. It's just that much greater to watch.
Second, chinese to be or not to be in BSL. Since there are so much money in the chinese and korean scene we cant really compare our community to theirs. As someone above claimed. They dont need us, but we need them. We have 250 players in BSL, that just shows how small our community is if our biggest tournament/league cant get more participants than that. Then as someone else also claimed above. Chines community would love to have our players joining their tournaments and leagues IF we can play or TR24 low. If not, then we're not welcome, plain and simple. Nothing to whine about, if you wanna play in their leagues, go to China. If you cant afford it, start a patreon and beg for money. If it wasnt for them it would be Dewalt vs Bonyth bo9 every BSL final.
Third, I have waited a long time to become a patreon, simply because I dont like this concept. When great people dedicate their time to host tournaments, leagues and other events for free then I gladly ship in with whatever I can afford to show my appreciation. But when my donation is to pay someones wage (his/her way for making a living) then I'm not really a supporter anymore, then my payment should be regarded as an owner in the company. I also should demand transperancy. What do I get from paying this wage?
As an example (ONLY AN EXAMPLE) A full time job in sweden is 40h/week. For that i earn 2800€/month. Average wage in Sweden is 3500€. Average wage in upper class in Poland according to polish statistics is 5275PLN, that's around 1000€. So the community now pays the double amount of the average upper clas wage in Poland to ZZZero, wich means we should demand (this is Swedish standards) 40h of work/week from our employee (wich is ZZZero).
Now I know there is alot of work for the production of each cast in BSL. And also gathering players, setup times and so on. But this isnt anything extraordinary. People have done this for free for 25 years even ZZZero. This is the first time the community actually pays a person a full time wage for hosting content for the community. This also means you should expect transperancy. What do you do for 160h/month for the wage the community pays, wich in polish standards according to the amount is the double amount of upper class standards in Poland.
I really love ZZZero, he is a great person, true hero and so dedicated to the SC community. But I think this went from being a hobby where u get donations for the work u put in, to becoming a full time job where people pay you to do the job, and the payment becomes your livelihood wich puts food on the table for your family. And it went from one thing to another way to fast. A person wich is paid 1500€ a month should have to beg for more money to be able to put food on the table. He should negotiate for more money to be able to do even greater things with BSL, just like any employee would when u want a payment raise. I wonder what my boss would say if i went in and said: I need more money to able to live! Response: "lol?"
Now I've been against this whole thing because IMO, and in my heart it's not fair to the others in the community. LML in BSL who takes care of Chobo, Hasu, Gosu league. Baal of BWCL All the admins of CPL who every season come up with new ideas and functions to keep it interesting and fun. Also Qikz who singlehandledly ran STPL wich great content, production, and functions for 3 days a week.
But for the sake of the community I will start donating on Patreon. This payment doesnt create greater content or make BSL more advanced. alot of work is still manually done with "pen and paper". But it will hopefully keep BSL alive 2023.
This is just my opinion and feeling about the whole situation. And it's all written with love. <3
+1. Well said. Truth can be harsh, but you are brave to speak truth.
He literally ends with "This is just my opinion and feeling about the whole situation."
IDK how you got Truth out of that... or when posting on tl.net became bravery in your mind...
I'll give you 3 Truths:
1. Life is not fair
2. BSL is cool
3. Back to 1 & 2
You are not getting agge's point.
If EU/NA/SA's SC viewership was large enough, just ads + viewer donations could easily support Zzzero, even platform salary, etc, way beyond 2X upper class income. That's how SK/China's model works. What's missing in foreign scene? Community/Viewership is too small. That's the root cause of all pain.
Can it be fixed easily? No. So either top players join SK/Chinese community by physically moving there and rest of the community disbanded, or no BSL at all, or organizers need to lower expectations. In this environment (small community with limited viewership, as a tournament organizer), even making average Poland salary would be a challenge. It's a harsh reality unfortunately but truth needs to be spoken.
On March 13 2023 19:59 iRk-AGge wrote: I just signed up as a patreon because I want BSL to stay alive. It's necessary for foreign BW to stay alive. Eventho SC should be considered a dead game in EU/NA/SA. If companies arent willing to invest, and if the prizepools arent big enough for players to be able to make a living from it, then IMO it's dead.
There have been many topics in this thread that are just plain stupid imo.
First of all, Artosis has made a brand out of himself. People dont care what he does on stream as long as he streams and rages. I love watching him and tasteless commentating SC, not because their knowledge is the best, but because they are professionals and entertaining. They make kick ass production and their streams are clean and they know exactly what to do, and it comes from alot of experience. Even if Nyoken and the others are great casters and they have great knowledge, it's still not on the same level when it comes to procution wich is why people without any knowledge rather watch Artosis and Tasteless. It's just that much greater to watch.
Second, chinese to be or not to be in BSL. Since there are so much money in the chinese and korean scene we cant really compare our community to theirs. As someone above claimed. They dont need us, but we need them. We have 250 players in BSL, that just shows how small our community is if our biggest tournament/league cant get more participants than that. Then as someone else also claimed above. Chines community would love to have our players joining their tournaments and leagues IF we can play or TR24 low. If not, then we're not welcome, plain and simple. Nothing to whine about, if you wanna play in their leagues, go to China. If you cant afford it, start a patreon and beg for money. If it wasnt for them it would be Dewalt vs Bonyth bo9 every BSL final.
Third, I have waited a long time to become a patreon, simply because I dont like this concept. When great people dedicate their time to host tournaments, leagues and other events for free then I gladly ship in with whatever I can afford to show my appreciation. But when my donation is to pay someones wage (his/her way for making a living) then I'm not really a supporter anymore, then my payment should be regarded as an owner in the company. I also should demand transperancy. What do I get from paying this wage?
As an example (ONLY AN EXAMPLE) A full time job in sweden is 40h/week. For that i earn 2800€/month. Average wage in Sweden is 3500€. Average wage in upper class in Poland according to polish statistics is 5275PLN, that's around 1000€. So the community now pays the double amount of the average upper clas wage in Poland to ZZZero, wich means we should demand (this is Swedish standards) 40h of work/week from our employee (wich is ZZZero).
Now I know there is alot of work for the production of each cast in BSL. And also gathering players, setup times and so on. But this isnt anything extraordinary. People have done this for free for 25 years even ZZZero. This is the first time the community actually pays a person a full time wage for hosting content for the community. This also means you should expect transperancy. What do you do for 160h/month for the wage the community pays, wich in polish standards according to the amount is the double amount of upper class standards in Poland.
I really love ZZZero, he is a great person, true hero and so dedicated to the SC community. But I think this went from being a hobby where u get donations for the work u put in, to becoming a full time job where people pay you to do the job, and the payment becomes your livelihood wich puts food on the table for your family. And it went from one thing to another way to fast. A person wich is paid 1500€ a month should have to beg for more money to be able to put food on the table. He should negotiate for more money to be able to do even greater things with BSL, just like any employee would when u want a payment raise. I wonder what my boss would say if i went in and said: I need more money to able to live! Response: "lol?"
Now I've been against this whole thing because IMO, and in my heart it's not fair to the others in the community. LML in BSL who takes care of Chobo, Hasu, Gosu league. Baal of BWCL All the admins of CPL who every season come up with new ideas and functions to keep it interesting and fun. Also Qikz who singlehandledly ran STPL wich great content, production, and functions for 3 days a week.
But for the sake of the community I will start donating on Patreon. This payment doesnt create greater content or make BSL more advanced. alot of work is still manually done with "pen and paper". But it will hopefully keep BSL alive 2023.
This is just my opinion and feeling about the whole situation. And it's all written with love. <3
Be constructive people!
+1. Well said. Truth can be harsh, but you are brave to speak truth.
He literally ends with "This is just my opinion and feeling about the whole situation."
IDK how you got Truth out of that... or when posting on tl.net became bravery in your mind...
I'll give you 3 Truths:
1. Life is not fair
2. BSL is cool
3. Back to 1 & 2
You are not getting agge's point.
If EU/NA/SA's SC viewership was large enough, just ads + viewer donations could easily support Zzzero, even platform salary, etc, way beyond 2X upper class income. That's how SK/China's model works. What's missing in foreign scene? Community/Viewership is too small. That's the root cause of all pain.
Can it be fixed easily? No. So either top players join SK/Chinese community by physically moving there and rest of the community disbanded, or no BSL at all, or organizers need to lower expectations. In this environment, even making average Poland salary would be a challenge. It's a harsh reality unfortunately but truth needs to be spoken.
If you can't support it that's ok. Nobody is forcing you to.
But it is also ok to try to maximize your gain from your job (this goes for everybody).
Times are always tough somewhere nobody would dispute that I don't think it's relevant to the discussion.
On March 13 2023 19:59 iRk-AGge wrote: I just signed up as a patreon because I want BSL to stay alive. It's necessary for foreign BW to stay alive. Eventho SC should be considered a dead game in EU/NA/SA. If companies arent willing to invest, and if the prizepools arent big enough for players to be able to make a living from it, then IMO it's dead.
There have been many topics in this thread that are just plain stupid imo.
First of all, Artosis has made a brand out of himself. People dont care what he does on stream as long as he streams and rages. I love watching him and tasteless commentating SC, not because their knowledge is the best, but because they are professionals and entertaining. They make kick ass production and their streams are clean and they know exactly what to do, and it comes from alot of experience. Even if Nyoken and the others are great casters and they have great knowledge, it's still not on the same level when it comes to procution wich is why people without any knowledge rather watch Artosis and Tasteless. It's just that much greater to watch.
Second, chinese to be or not to be in BSL. Since there are so much money in the chinese and korean scene we cant really compare our community to theirs. As someone above claimed. They dont need us, but we need them. We have 250 players in BSL, that just shows how small our community is if our biggest tournament/league cant get more participants than that. Then as someone else also claimed above. Chines community would love to have our players joining their tournaments and leagues IF we can play or TR24 low. If not, then we're not welcome, plain and simple. Nothing to whine about, if you wanna play in their leagues, go to China. If you cant afford it, start a patreon and beg for money. If it wasnt for them it would be Dewalt vs Bonyth bo9 every BSL final.
Third, I have waited a long time to become a patreon, simply because I dont like this concept. When great people dedicate their time to host tournaments, leagues and other events for free then I gladly ship in with whatever I can afford to show my appreciation. But when my donation is to pay someones wage (his/her way for making a living) then I'm not really a supporter anymore, then my payment should be regarded as an owner in the company. I also should demand transperancy. What do I get from paying this wage?
As an example (ONLY AN EXAMPLE) A full time job in sweden is 40h/week. For that i earn 2800€/month. Average wage in Sweden is 3500€. Average wage in upper class in Poland according to polish statistics is 5275PLN, that's around 1000€. So the community now pays the double amount of the average upper clas wage in Poland to ZZZero, wich means we should demand (this is Swedish standards) 40h of work/week from our employee (wich is ZZZero).
Now I know there is alot of work for the production of each cast in BSL. And also gathering players, setup times and so on. But this isnt anything extraordinary. People have done this for free for 25 years even ZZZero. This is the first time the community actually pays a person a full time wage for hosting content for the community. This also means you should expect transperancy. What do you do for 160h/month for the wage the community pays, wich in polish standards according to the amount is the double amount of upper class standards in Poland.
I really love ZZZero, he is a great person, true hero and so dedicated to the SC community. But I think this went from being a hobby where u get donations for the work u put in, to becoming a full time job where people pay you to do the job, and the payment becomes your livelihood wich puts food on the table for your family. And it went from one thing to another way to fast. A person wich is paid 1500€ a month should have to beg for more money to be able to put food on the table. He should negotiate for more money to be able to do even greater things with BSL, just like any employee would when u want a payment raise. I wonder what my boss would say if i went in and said: I need more money to able to live! Response: "lol?"
Now I've been against this whole thing because IMO, and in my heart it's not fair to the others in the community. LML in BSL who takes care of Chobo, Hasu, Gosu league. Baal of BWCL All the admins of CPL who every season come up with new ideas and functions to keep it interesting and fun. Also Qikz who singlehandledly ran STPL wich great content, production, and functions for 3 days a week.
But for the sake of the community I will start donating on Patreon. This payment doesnt create greater content or make BSL more advanced. alot of work is still manually done with "pen and paper". But it will hopefully keep BSL alive 2023.
This is just my opinion and feeling about the whole situation. And it's all written with love. <3
Be constructive people!
+1. Well said. Truth can be harsh, but you are brave to speak truth.
He literally ends with "This is just my opinion and feeling about the whole situation."
IDK how you got Truth out of that... or when posting on tl.net became bravery in your mind...
I'll give you 3 Truths:
1. Life is not fair
2. BSL is cool
3. Back to 1 & 2
You are not getting agge's point.
If EU/NA/SA's SC viewership was large enough, just ads + viewer donations could easily support Zzzero, even platform salary, etc, way beyond 2X upper class income. That's how SK/China's model works. What's missing in foreign scene? Community/Viewership is too small. That's the root cause of all pain.
Can it be fixed easily? No. So either top players join SK/Chinese community by physically moving there and rest of the community disbanded, or no BSL at all, or organizers need to lower expectations. In this environment, even making average Poland salary would be a challenge. It's a harsh reality unfortunately but truth needs to be spoken.
If you can't support it that's ok. Nobody is forcing you to.
But it is also ok to try to maximize your gain from your job (this goes for everybody).
Times are always tough somewhere nobody would dispute that I don't think it's relevant to the discussion.
^_._^
Clarification: by "environment" I meant the foreign SC community, not the current economic environment.
On March 14 2023 02:49 EndingLife wrote: What is the annual prize pool total for players vs annual amount ZZZero is requesting from viewers for hosting BSL full time?
On March 14 2023 02:49 EndingLife wrote: What is the annual prize pool total for players vs annual amount ZZZero is requesting from viewers for hosting BSL full time?
On March 14 2023 02:49 EndingLife wrote: What is the annual prize pool total for players vs annual amount ZZZero is requesting from viewers for hosting BSL full time?
On March 14 2023 02:49 EndingLife wrote: What is the annual prize pool total for players vs annual amount ZZZero is requesting from viewers for hosting BSL full time?
On March 14 2023 00:43 sas.Sziky wrote: One thing everyone should understand, listen AGge:D: Chinese players actually progamers( progamers who is can living by games ) + they 100x can practice the game more easily. Europe players cant living by sc and cant play sc at the moment( bad vpn). I don't have any advantage over other eu players, they have same oportunity as me. and guys over the B rank there is no game. ( lot of A, low S rank player stopped the play for a last 1-2 years). but all ok of course :D
On March 14 2023 01:02 maybenexttime wrote: Your argument is based on a false premise. You're saying that ZZZero is asking for an extraordinary compensation for a product that is not extraordinary by any measure. I'm pointing out that the compensation he's asking for is not extraordinary in any way.
And, please, don't tell me that earning "the double amount of the average upper class wage" in a given country is not getting rich... It suggests that he's aiming to be a top 5% earner or something when, in fact, he's aiming for a median income for his age bracket.
Okey I will try to explain my point of view as simple as I can.
You have a product that you sell for free but you get donations wich gives you the opportunity to keep developing your product without you having to take too much from your own pockets. Everything is running smoothly even with the other products on the market that is intertwined with your product. You have staff group that are helping you and alot of passion within the group that keeps the product intact.
Now your product starts growing, you can see a vision, a dream that you can make a living out of this product. People from all over the globe are also interested in your product and lets say your product reaches a peak of 1000 people. You start looking for investors and people starts shipping in money to make your dream come true.
You make a decision to quit your regular job, in hope of within a year being able to make a full living out of the product. Wich means most of the money being shipped in has to pay your wage so you can survive, wich means the development of the product stagnates until then.
Now the problems with running a business becomes clear. You have an issue with a part of the market (Dandy) and you decide to cut that part lose, but now 150 people also loses interest in your product. You then reach out to a new market (China) that creates competition for your product, but now another part of the market (EU) doesnt like your interaction with the new location because it feels like your product is bleeding invested money from that market (EU) to the new one (China). The new market (CHina) on the other hand is having a positive effect on your product for the remaining 850 interested people.
But if you cut the new market lose now the competition you created might make you lose even more people that is showing interest in your product. And the problem is still you dont make enough money from the product to be able to make a living from and also generating enough money to develop it. And the biggest issue is that you havent been able to sign any steady sponsors or companies that want to invest, you still rely on private persons to invest from their own pockets in your product. Wich makes the whole business very fragile.
Now the banning of Dandy (a market), that situation itself lost BSL aprox 200 viewers on youtube (from my pov), I dont know how many on live twitch streams but prolly 100-200 viewers. The banning I stand by, but this just shows how fragile the foreign community is if you only have 1000 viewers to gamble with. You remove the chinese players (another market) from BSL, that might even further make viewers stop watching. And BSL still wants to reach as many viewers as possible so the income from youtube and twitch becomes steady, but atm it doesnt generate enough or any(?) money, so BSL still has to rely on patreon payments.
You can compare these games: Bonyth vs Dewalt in BSL15 grand finals, 611 views Dewalt vs Mihu in BSL14 grand finals, 1400 views Dewalt vs Zhanhun BSL14 semifinals 2800 views Bonyth vs Terror BSL12 Grand finals 4212 views Bonyth vs Terror BSL11 Grand finals 1400 views
The interest in top chinese players vs top EU players is way bigger than the finals of two EU players.
Now this is just my observation and analysis of this current situation. I wouldnt have done it this way, but I'm also too chicken to even think about going for my dream. So I really want this to work for ZZZero, but in 1 year he shouldve maybe showed what he is doing at his work hours. Has he been trying to get more sponsors? Is he reaching out to eSport fund? Is he planning on investing in Pro league casters? what is the plan if he reaches the amount he's asking for?
On March 14 2023 02:49 EndingLife wrote: What is the annual prize pool total for players vs annual amount ZZZero is requesting from viewers for hosting BSL full time?
Zzzero is asking for $2500 a month, so that comes to $30000. That's 3.3X annual BSL prize pool.
That's quite off. The total is much closer to $15,250+ (I might've missed some) + merch in 2022. That includes the BSL16 ladder tours that were played in 2022, BSL 2v2 and other off-season events. Even not counting off season events (as those had at least one other sponsor), it was at least $6300 + merch for BSL15 and $5650 + merch for BSL14 (unless I missed some events). + Show Spoiler +
During 2022: BSL16: 3x 100 Open Ladder Tours, 3x Merch Chobo Ladder Tours BSL15: 4000 PL, 500 GL, 500 Asia, 500 Europe, 500 NA (+ 755 additional funding from NA), 500 Europe, 2x 100 Open Ladder Tours, 2x 50 Crazy Funny Ladder Tours, 2x BSL T-Shirt with nickname & flag Chobo Ladder Tours BSL14: 5000 PL, 150 GL, 100 Announcement invitational, 100 Super Gosu Showmatch (Dewalt vs Mihu), 3x 100 Open Ladder Tours, 3x Merch Chobo Ladder Tours Races championship: 1000 BSL 2v2: 1000 BSL Surprise Tournament: 500 Merch given to Gosu/Hasu/Chobo League
On March 14 2023 00:04 iRk-AGge wrote:There was way more passion behind BSL,an eagerness to become better, the admin session on BSL server was alive, now it's all quiet. Last post was a month ago.
To be fair, there is a very active admin channel that staff members cannot see.
I think this is more of a covid story more than anything, people were staying home during covid (2020 and 2021) so the view count/prize pool got inflated, now it's normalizing back to average.
We can't act like those numbers are the avg benchmarks we should be hitting as a community, 2020 and 2021 were exceptions, not the norm. Basically the expectations are a bit unrealistic imo, it gave this perception that the scene is growing much faster than it really is.
BW is still a marathon, not a race. The only way to grow this game long term (in a self sufficient way) is from the ground up w/ the community fully engaged. And for that you can't rely on Blizzard, the day the community understands this is the day we'll actually start building something real.
I appreciate the effort, but I don't understand why you're talking about the viability BSL as a business. My critique was regarding how you framed ZZZero's financial incentives, i.e. "ZZZero would like us to pay him double the average upper class earnings in Poland". As I pointed out, that is not even remotely close to the truth.
Edit: I'm not sure you grasp just how ridiculously off the numbers you cited were. In 2023, the minimum salary in Poland is around 3500 PLN. According to your post, earning 50% more than the minimum wage puts you in the upper class in Poland, and earning 3x the minimum wage puts you solidly in the upper class.
guys, since many of you already criticize ZZZero and are much smarter than him make better pls! NO? What a surprise. Then pls help if u like the BSL and foreign bw your money, your play, your cast, your admin and etc find sponsor and etc don't be smart, it won't help.
On March 14 2023 05:24 sas.Sziky wrote: guys, since many of you already criticize ZZZero and are much smarter than him make better pls! NO? What a surprise. Then pls help if u like the BSL and foreign bw your money, your play, your cast, your admin and etc find sponsor and etc don't be smart, it won't help.
I appreciate the effort, but I don't understand why you're talking about the viability BSL as a business. My critique was regarding how you framed ZZZero's financial incentives, i.e. "ZZZero would like us to pay him double the average upper class earnings in Poland". As I pointed out, that is not even remotely close to the truth.
Edit: I'm not sure you grasp just how ridiculously off the numbers you cited were. In 2023, the minimum salary in Poland is around 3500 PLN. According to your post, earning 50% more than the minimum wage puts you in the upper class in Poland, and earning 3x the minimum wage puts you solidly in the upper class.
I'm not sure if u missunderstand me deliberately, or if my english is just so bad that u dont understand my point. The information I got might be off, the numbers might be wrong, if so im sorry. Anyhow my point is still that IMO BSL havent changed that much from when it was hosted for free with donations compared to now when the community pays 18 000€/year for it to be hosted. Or if the community pays 29 000€/year. Because right now BSL doesnt generate enough money for ZZZero to be able to make a living from it if it's the minimum wage, average wage, upperclass wage, it doesnt matter. His bills are larger than the income from the community, hence the video. I dont think ZZZero intends to become rich from this, i've never said that. I simply made an example based on the information I got, and I am sorry if that was wrong. Ofcourse supporting a family compared to being alone also is different. 6000PLN for a single person might be a great wage, while the same amount for a whole family is not enough. I understand that as well. Again, I am sorry if I was wrong. But BSL becomes a business when you decide to make it your main income source. And people investing in the business might want some kind of transparency if they are to keep investing in long term. You look at the cast with Machine and Razz, on Razz webcam there is the xsplit vcam logo that shows he uses the free version. The chromakey isnt set correctly so half his head is sometimes missing and then the chair fades in and out. Then all of a sudden Machines webcam disappears, and by the end of the cast a picture of him with a glass of wine appears instead. My point is there is no investment in the product.
Just compare these two: BSL season8. good webcams, flawless chromakeys. good colors and "it almost looks like it's a real studio". At least that what my girlfriend said when I showed this to her when she looked real quick.
Then current BSL16, colors havent been corrected, chromakeys havent been set correctly. It just looks sloppy.
And this is my point, the production havent become greater now that this is run as a full time job.
IMO, in my opinion, I think focusing on BSL and make better content, developing it so it looks more professional, so maybe companies wants to invest and sponsor it. And get more viewers that normally dont watch SC but like good production would go and watch it on youtube. But that is just my opinion. We need to find other ways to get funds for BSL and ZZZero so he can keep his dream alive, but I really dont think there is enough viewers to support the funds needed and definitely not long term. Now it's the BSL fanbase that keeps watching, but it doesnt look like BSL generates many views from the outside. So more tournaments probably won't generate more views on youtube if the BSL15 grand finals wich is the top of the top cant get more than 600 views. Maybe there should be bloopers and other stuff produced as well that maybe generates views from a different viewerbase on youtube.
YouTube is my preferred platform for viewing vods, if viewership helps Zzzero I'd love to go there. However, there's always a huge delay in vods available on YT vs actual BSL progress.
For example, the lastest vod available on YT as of now is BSL16 ro8 Mihu vs Zhanhun. That was played on 2/25, so more than 2 weeks ago. All the vods from games played last weekend & the weekend before aren't there yet. This is certainly not helping viewership if Zzzero wants to be serious about it.
I agree that this"wallpaper" idk the correct word need to change asap. That was my 2 cents as a relatively recent comer to bw. Its a small but Real put off.
On March 14 2023 05:24 sas.Sziky wrote: guys, since many of you already criticize ZZZero and are much smarter than him make better pls! NO? What a surprise. Then pls help if u like the BSL and foreign bw your money, your play, your cast, your admin and etc find sponsor and etc don't be smart, it won't help.
On March 14 2023 05:04 TT1 wrote: I think this is more of a covid story more than anything, people were staying home during covid (2020 and 2021) so the view count/prize pool got inflated, now it's normalizing back to average.
We can't act like those numbers are the avg benchmarks we should be hitting as a community, 2020 and 2021 were exceptions, not the norm. Basically the expectations are a bit unrealistic imo, it gave this perception that the scene is growing much faster than it really is.
BW is still a marathon, not a race. The only way to grow this game long term (in a self sufficient way) is from the ground up w/ the community fully engaged. And for that you can't rely on Blizzard, the day the community understands this is the day we'll actually start building something real.
I think thats a decent take. On thing of note is that not only viewership numbers might be inflated, but also the monetary values. There was much more money to go around. Right now it seems we are entering more difficult times so it will probably be even harder to support the 20/21 level of monetary pledges to BW in one form or another.
That said i would be interested to know what specificially you envision whenyou say "we will actually start building something real". What do you have in mind ? Software ? Community ? More viewer engagement, what exactly is it ?
On March 14 2023 15:03 MeSaber wrote: My only complaint is that i didnt like this format as i dont think the inferior players have a chance to win.
I agree, BSL is boring because the best zerg in the obserable universe (tm) (JULIA) has no chance to win it KAPPA.
On March 14 2023 05:24 sas.Sziky wrote: guys, since many of you already criticize ZZZero and are much smarter than him make better pls! NO? What a surprise. Then pls help if u like the BSL and foreign bw your money, your play, your cast, your admin and etc find sponsor and etc don't be smart, it won't help.
Ez a leendő testvér. Amikor kijön, adj neki mindent.
Maybe, maybe not. As far as i am concerned there has been no (not ANY) actual footage of the gameplay. All we have seen is 2 screenshots. I think its absolutely possible that this game will dump hard.
Also i think there is a strong search for nostalgia and the "good old times", thats why games like Heroes 3 and Age of Empires 2 (even before Redbull claimed it) were/are popular. And the gameplay definitely is above and beyond Starcraft 2...imo. Also consider that even if the game is "good" in general, you might still like it less than brood war and do you really want to commit a lot of hours to a "game" that you not really enjoy, even if it brings in money ?
LASTLY, consider that a lot of people from all RTS games will probably jump to Stormgate as long as it has money in it, so competition might be fierce. So fierce in fact, that even top brood war players might be not be top "new game x" players.
One more point. Brood War is love, Brood War is life,
On March 14 2023 04:49 iRk-AGge wrote: [ but now another part of the market (EU) doesnt like your interaction with the new location because it feels like your product is bleeding invested money from that market (EU) to the new one (China). The new market (CHina) on the other hand is having a positive effect on your product for the remaining 850 interested people.
Is that the official EU statement on the matter? Cuz I counted 3 ppl from the US and 3 ppl from EU who were against Chinese participation.
Also I've been told by another tournament organizer that people from SA just donate directly to their players instead foreign tournaments. So even if your viewer numbers are correct, if BSL wasn't getting any donations from SA then it makes sense. Nobody but ZZZero knows the real numbers for BSL. I trust he puts great thought before he makes decisions and doesn't make em lightly.
On March 14 2023 04:49 iRk-AGge wrote: [ but now another part of the market (EU) doesnt like your interaction with the new location because it feels like your product is bleeding invested money from that market (EU) to the new one (China). The new market (CHina) on the other hand is having a positive effect on your product for the remaining 850 interested people.
Is that the official EU statement on the matter? Cuz I counted 3 ppl from the US and 3 ppl from EU who were against Chinese participation.
Also I've been told by another tournament organizer that people from SA just donate directly to their players instead foreign tournaments. So even if your viewer numbers are correct, if BSL wasn't getting any donations from SA then it makes sense. Nobody but ZZZero knows the real numbers for BSL. I trust he puts great thought before he makes decisions and doesn't make em lightly.
I hope BSL continues to happen and improve, try new things, etc...
^_._^
Thx for fixing the picture! Really hated to have it as an example, but I had to explain my point somehow.
Ofc it's not an official statement. It was an explanation of my point of view. Basically that we have so few viewers that every viewer actually counts. I think everyone that has a chance of claiming a piece of the prizepool is probably against the Chinese participation. But what they dont add to the equation imo is that the chinese players brings something different to the league, and for us viewers they bring a totally new player base that can compete with our best players. And our best players actually has to make an effort to reach Ro8 now. So for the competition it's good, but for keeping the small amount of prizepool money within EU/SA/NA it's probably bad.
And yes, SA fans are very loyal to their own players, but the SA community is also very large, so it means hundreds of viewers, wich in the end might generate more money from youtube and twitch. Not everything should have to stand and fall with donations/Patreons imo.
On March 14 2023 04:49 iRk-AGge wrote: [ but now another part of the market (EU) doesnt like your interaction with the new location because it feels like your product is bleeding invested money from that market (EU) to the new one (China). The new market (CHina) on the other hand is having a positive effect on your product for the remaining 850 interested people.
Is that the official EU statement on the matter? Cuz I counted 3 ppl from the US and 3 ppl from EU who were against Chinese participation.
Also I've been told by another tournament organizer that people from SA just donate directly to their players instead foreign tournaments. So even if your viewer numbers are correct, if BSL wasn't getting any donations from SA then it makes sense. Nobody but ZZZero knows the real numbers for BSL. I trust he puts great thought before he makes decisions and doesn't make em lightly.
I hope BSL continues to happen and improve, try new things, etc...
^_._^
Thx for fixing the picture! Really hated to have it as an example, but I had to explain my point somehow.
Ofc it's not an official statement. It was an explanation of my point of view. Basically that we have so few viewers that every viewer actually counts. I think everyone that has a chance of claiming a piece of the prizepool is probably against the Chinese participation. But what they dont add to the equation imo is that the chinese players brings something different to the league, and for us viewers they bring a totally new player base that can compete with our best players. And our best players actually has to make an effort to reach Ro8 now. So for the competition it's good, but for keeping the small amount of prizepool money within EU/SA/NA it's probably bad.
And yes, SA fans are very loyal to their own players, but the SA community is also very large, so it means hundreds of viewers, wich in the end might generate more money from youtube and twitch. Not everything should have to stand and fall with donations/Patreons imo.
IDK how many players are depending on that money of winning BSL. (5 different people have taken the big 1st place money prizes and 2 more different have won 2nd place in big prize pools ($1K for first or above)
You can have a BSL China qualifier and put 1 player if the other participants think this is fair.
There's always a compromise to be found IF it's a big issue.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, Chinese players choose to participate in BSL mostly for the sake of making friends with the foreign community. Monetary wise, the prize they make from BSL only constitutes a tiny fraction of their total income. Competition wise, they have regular matches against top SK players (yes, they let their prize pool bleed to SK players), and they improve skills a lot faster playing with them than BSL players.
Some Chinese players are already on the fence to participate, e.g., qiaogege was in BSL14, but he decided not to participate in 15 due to latency & jetlag. He joined again in 16. Busterran, AFAIK has decided to pull out due to latency after playing one season. Other top players, e.g. Jedi, AP, etc have never participated.
If BSL sets up a China qualifier and only allows one to advance, it might be simpler to outright nominate Mihu. But Mihu is the biggest threat to the BSL prize pool. Oh well, might as well just ban all of them.