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Alright, I see some people are questioning the existence of such places. I actually spent some time in a place very similar also in Utah. These places do exist, they do ruin peoples lives. If there is any evidence of the evil of religion this is surely it.
They are 100% real. One of my posts on my experiences is in that reddit thread and if anyone still doubts the legitimacy of this I may share some details.
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Bisutopia19044 Posts
This makes me sick to my stomach. What's worse though is a lot of people here seem to think a small group of people harassing kids means that all of America is in on it. This is the first time I've heard of something like this, but I'm damn sure this is happening in other countries too and I really hope one day I can do something useful to prevent schools like this from happening.
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On May 30 2011 03:08 NicolBolas wrote:It's amazing how a post about some asshole parents wanting their daughter de-gayified by sending them to a hell-camp has degenerated into religion-bashing. Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 01:53 DoubleReed wrote:On May 30 2011 01:47 Olinim wrote: You said "practically nothing is said about homosexuality in the bible" but it says gays are an abomination and should be put to death, how is that practically nothing? Just because they only mention it a few times? Obviously it doesn't justify his actions because the Bible isn't true. Just because it has some positive aspects it doesn't negate the truly horrific ones. Why would a Christian believe that the Bible is the word of God but just disregard passages like that, was he just being untruthful? That's some serious cognitive dissonance. I don't know. Christians disregard plenty of passages of the Bible. The fact that they take the part that's hateful says something about them. "They" do? Really? Some of them do, but painting all Christians as anti-Gay only serves to undermine your point and turn you into exactly the kind of thing you're ostensibly struggling against. There are plenty of pro-Gay Christians around. However, because they're not of the holier-than-thou asshole variety, they don't run around with their Christianity on their sleeves to get attention. Um, no it isn't. The most you can say is that religion can be used as a convenient excuse. The Romans did not go to war to honor Mars. They said that, but they went to war because they were assholes and Mars was something they could use to cover that up. If people didn't have that excuse, they'd just come up with a different one. Perhaps instead of the Crusades, it might have been a war between the nations of Europe. Or something else. People often talk about the wars started by religion, yet nobody ever talks about the good side of religion. Probably because it doesn't get much press. The hope that it brings people. The moral compass that it helps people develop. The communities it helps to keep together. Religion isn't necessary for those things, but it isn't necessary for war either. So you want to cast off your religion and... join a religion. You realize that Buddhism is a religion, right? Or do you just not consider it a religion because it doesn't have a God in it?
Buddhism is only a religion because people like you, ie the majority, think it's a religion. Buddhism is a philosophy and not a religion. Most buddhists are either shintoist or Hindus or some other religion. Also, 99% of the people in charge for starting holy wars were 100% convinced that the holy wars were just and for God. So, no, it wasn't just an excuse. Was murdering hundreds of thousands of protestants an excuse?
Hunting down and burning wiccans alive? just cuz they were pagans? slaughtering Muslim women and children in cold blood? it was widely regarded that men were to be killed and women and children spared, but because they were muslims they slaughtered them.
I think the following quote from the film Flight of the Phoenix is a perfect way to put it "Religion drives people apart, Faith brings them together"
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I'm appalled at what I just read. I feel sorry for everyone who ever went through such an experience. I don't understand how that stuff is legal...
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Also, one of the things that makes me so sick about many of these camps is how much the government supports this. When I was sent to a similar facility it was 80% my schools doing then my actual parents. All of these facilities gain huge amounts of money from the government ( I heard quotes of upwards of 800$ a day per kid could easily be more) and they are peddled by government officials all over the country.
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On May 28 2011 07:22 roflSloth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 07:02 jdseemoreglass wrote: Where is the evidence that this is a Mormon organization? It doesn't mention it anywhere on the site and google is turning up nothing. She said part of the evidence that it was Mormon was that she wasn't allowed to have caffeine?
I just want to get the facts straight here before we start bashing the "Mormon point of view." I know several Mormons and I know not a single one of them would support a program like this.
And just because some staff are Mormon doesn't make it a Mormon organization either. Read her reddit posts, she actually only mentioned it was a Mormon program because it wasn't mentioned anywhere; she even said she wouldn't have made a big deal out of it if they advertised they were Mormon. As for the evidence, well, if you read her transcript carefully, she mentions many religious themes present in Cross Creek's program. Combine that with the staff being 95% Mormon (her words, not mine), and that's a pretty easy conclusion to make, in my opinion. As much as I disagree with religion in general, however, I definitely agree with your point that we shouldn't bash the Mormon point of view. There are extremists and douchebags from all beliefs; Christians, Muslims, Mormons, even atheists. I definitely see too many people on TL boards instantly condemning the religion involved when things like this happen. I agree. I have always been an atheist but never really cared about other peoples beliefs except when they are harmful to others. I think almost all atheists are like that but in recent years there have been groups that became louder and louder, who blame all the bad things in the world on religions. They disgust me just as much as religious zealots. They think they are different but actually they are exactly the same.
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I never cease to be surprised by the united states.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On May 28 2011 15:51 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 14:36 Bosko wrote: In addition to this they “forgot” all of the psychiatric medication I had been on at my house. It’s not that I am for psychiatric meds, but it certainly did not feel healthy or normal to go from taking this medication regularly, to just not having it and stopping with out tapering off of it.
From the moment I arrived at Cross Creek, I was treated as though I was broken, dirty, and inhuman Made me laugh. They don't give psychiatric meds to people who aren't broken. The way they took her to the schooled sounded like the worst part. That's not gonna help a mentally unstable kid who already has issues with their parents any. This post is stupid beyond belief. You use meds to treat a physical problem. They give glasses to people whose eyes don't work. You give meds to people whose brains don't work. No more broken than someone with poor eyesight and I highly doubt you're perfect.
And you say my post was stupid...I imagine if you weren't a mod you would get a warning for pointlessness and flamebait.
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On May 28 2011 07:02 jdseemoreglass wrote: Where is the evidence that this is a Mormon organization? It doesn't mention it anywhere on the site and google is turning up nothing. She said part of the evidence that it was Mormon was that she wasn't allowed to have caffeine?
I just want to get the facts straight here before we start bashing the "Mormon point of view." I know several Mormons and I know not a single one of them would support a program like this.
And just because some staff are Mormon doesn't make it a Mormon organization either.
The facility I went to was in provo, utah. If you know anything about provo, utah you know that 90% of its population is mormon. The entire time I was there I only met one staff member that was not a mormon and he was part of the security. This was a government funded facility and it had A MORMON CHURCH on the grounds. Every sunday you had 2 options 1) go to church and have a good time because everyone who went was awarded with privileges 2) sit in silence for 3 hours and do absolutely nothing. Suffice to say most people went to the church just so that they wouldn't be "punished".
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Horrible horrible story. I would have resisted the hell out of those people. In the airport I would be screaming bloody murder about kidnapping, get those assholes into trouble. I hate people sometimes.
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Religion is definitely to blame here. The sooner we all abandon religion the better off mankind will be.
User was temp banned for this post.
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I.... couldn't finish the story. Too rough.
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Reading this makes me want to puke. Sick, delusional people. Forced religious stuff? Gender roles? Child abuse? Takes me a lot of effort to stay civilized in this reply, because this is just way too enraging for me. Wish someone would just raid this place, burn it and have all these jerks locked up in psych ward for the rest of their lives.
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Fuck that. FUCK THAT. What kind of sick twisted fuck sends their child to a place like that? Who the FUCK could be ok with 2 men breaking into their little girls bedroom and essentially kidnapping her? I don't even...this is awful.
EDIT: This fucking travesty isn't still going on is it? Surely, surely there has to be some law against this. And if there isn't someone needs to make one.
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On May 30 2011 04:10 Barrin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2011 15:29 Olinim wrote:On May 29 2011 15:18 Barrin wrote:On May 29 2011 15:15 RifleCow wrote: Honestly, I don't even understand why it matters if its a choice or not. Only to religion does this issue matter. People should just be free to be homosexual whether it is by choice or they are born with it. I agree. On May 29 2011 15:16 Olinim wrote:On May 29 2011 15:09 Barrin wrote:On May 29 2011 15:01 Olinim wrote:On May 29 2011 14:58 Barrin wrote:On May 29 2011 14:39 Olinim wrote: Also some basic logic would lead you to conclude that people don't choose to be gay. Did you choose who you are attracted to? Do you choose what food you like? Obviously not, it's how you were born. I don't see how it's impossible that there were factors/experiences after you were born that lead you to becoming gay. Maybe it's not like this for everyone, but I can guarantee you it is like that for some people. Well maybe there were some factors that caused you to become straight, perhaps you need some treatment. What factors do you suggest would completely shift a person's sexuality? Excuse me but I never suggested that a gay person needs treatment, not sure why you're suggesting that I need treatment. The answer to your question is simple: horrible and/or psychologically damaging heterosexual activities can lead someone to not enjoy heterosexual activities which leads to homosexual activities as a way to release tension. It doesn't even need to be like that either. Maybe you've just always had bad experiences with almost every person of the opposite sex. It can also be a cultural thing or something learned from siblings, etc. It can also simply be all you ever knew (If you look at my last post on the last page you can see that we don't really have an instinctive aversion to it, and you will also see that liking it doesn't necessarily make you only homosexual, you might just be bi which is actually reasonably normal). Any combination of these things will do really. I'm sure there are more. Bullshit. Show me an actual scientific study that shows that being raped causes you to become gay. Why would homosexual activity relieve stress from a traumatic sexual experience just because it was heterosexual? And having bad experiences with someone of the opposite sex has nothing to do with their sexuality, I could absolutely hate a chick but still want to have sex with her. You don't learn sexuality from a sibling seriously that is freaking absurd. These are all absurd reasons trying to make it sound like its a symptom, a result of some trauma or something and it's not. Don't really need scientific studies when I have common sense, and, oh, I don't know, the "gay people" telling me from their own mouths? Many people already know that these are factors for some people to turn gay. Notice how I said "some people"; if I did not outright say it, then I at least implied multiple times that this does not include every gay person's reason for turning gay. You seem to act like I'm trying to explain why all gay people are gay, when I am really just explaining why some gay people are gay. I like how you blatantly ignore this part It can also simply be all you ever knew (If you look at my last post on the last page you can see that we don't really have an instinctive aversion to it, and you will also see that liking it doesn't necessarily make you only homosexual, you might just be bi which is actually reasonably normal). Are you trolling or are you just upset? I understand either way, but either way maybe it's time for you to take a break for a bit. (actually on that note time to play some games; i might come back to this thread tmrw). Why would I believe you even talk to a gay person when you already admitted your discomforted by their very presence? "not include every gay person's reason for turning gay." This is what I'm talking about, they didn't have a reason to TURN GAY, they simply are. You admitted your own ignorance and bias on the subject in your very first post. It's actually funny because you're starting to remind of me of my very devout Mormon mother. She can't help herself but to assume things and make inferences off of pretty much everything. Trust me, I rarely mean more than what I'm literally saying. All I said was that I prefer not to interact with gay people (and also that I would never bother them about it unless they asked me or out etc. which hasn't even happened in a long time), not that I never or even rarely have. When I said "gay people telling me from their own mouths" it doesn't necessarily rule out the possibility that they weren't even directing their words right at me (it could mean that I just overheard conversations). But actually it's all three: One person has indeed talked directly to me about it, I have overheard multiple conversations (if you really want to know I used to be a patient in a mental institution for severe depression many years ago, which is also where most of my less-than-pleasant encounters with gay people happened (I actually love life nowadays btw)), and I've also just read about them (both people writing about them and them writing about themselves). The funny thing is that from your point of view i.e. Show nested quote +Well maybe there were some factors that caused you to become straight, perhaps you need some treatment. is that there were indeed factors that help cause me to become straight (instead of bi). If I'm not mistaken, I basically mentioned that many posts ago. In fact I can definitely recognize masculine beauty when I see it, but never have I wanted to fuck it. But like I said I never said or even thought that gay people need treatment, so you're pretty much just as bad as those religious people who say that gays do. Show nested quote +Why would homosexual activity relieve stress from a traumatic sexual experience just because it was heterosexual? Actually what I said was it would relieve "tension". Think about it. If a person cannot enjoy heterosexual activity, then they can never really get to have sex with someone unless they do homosexual acts. Are you not aware what happens to a person when they cannot have sex for a very long period of time? That's the tension I was talking about. You know I actually gave you plenty of material to work with if you had just thought about it rationally for a moment. Show nested quote +On May 29 2011 14:45 Barrin wrote: Pretty much every well-recorded primate species (maybe just all mammals in general) have been shown that some members would sometimes do homosexual acts. I believe almost always you could just call them "bisexual" though... In the case of males, it's often really an establishment of dominance (these members still do their thing with females and reproduce etc). In the case of females, they will please each other as sort-of a trade. If you think about this for a moment and use your awesome inference skills, it's not hard to come to the conclusion that I think pretty much everyone has the capacity to perform and enjoy homosexual acts (when they're ready) from birth. This doesn't inherently mean that they will, of course, so it doesn't necessarily mean that I think people are born "gay". In fact this is an argument to suggest that they chose to be gay (but like I said, I don't really think there's enough information either way). On that note, I think I've given plenty of evidence to suggest that it might actually be a choice (and have essentially proven that it is for some people, just like it's my choice to stay straight (even though I didn't choose the experiences that lead me to be)).
I'm not really sure why you seem to have some kind of vendetta against me. I am not a part of these religious people that oppress gays (and nor have I done so independently). If you haven't realized all I was doing was explaining the Mormon's thought process (something I don't necessarily agree with, and even though it is flawed does not make it wholly illogical (I pity people who choose a side without trying to understand all sides)). The only thing I did that could have possibly offended you is that I do not think there is enough evidence to suggest that people can be "born gay". I only presented the information I know: that some people do essentially choose to be gay (much in the same way that gamers decide to play games). I even admitted multiple times that I do not know enough about it to come to a conclusion one way or the other (which is almost an open invitation for you to logically show me why you think one way or the other). I tried to be nice, but it's clear that no amount of logic is going to convince you that what you believe in might be wrong (wow... that sounds a lot like religious people doesn't it). Think, man. All I'm saying is that you don't consciously choose who you're attracted to. You said people "choose" to be gay much like a gamer chooses to play games, but those aren't the same. It's simply that you can't choose to be gay it's absurd, you could CHOOSE to have gay sex but that doesn't necessarily make you gay. It means you have an attraction, which you can't choose. Now you're just resorting to ad hominem attacks accusing me of being like your mom and such nonsense.
You don't choose to be straight, you are attracted to woman, that isn't a choice, you don't choose to be attracted to men either. I don't think you know the definition of choice.
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This is utterly disgraceful! To quote their websites FAQ section ''Q. How do I get my child to agree to come there? Each situation is different, Some students will come voluntarily others need a bit of persuasion. We will help you determine what is best for your child. (The decision is yours not theirs)'' How can parents even think of doing this to their children. I am horrified.
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^In regards to the 'choosing who you're attracted to' thing, the main argument against it is it makes no fucking sense. Either you are attracted to someone or you are not; when was the last time you looked at someone you didn't find attractive and said 'yeah I'm gonna be attracted to them now'. If there are any straight people who think you can choose to be gay, by all means go ahead, start being attracted to men now.
What's that? You don't want to? How bizarre.
I suppose there can be people that choose to have sex with their own gender even though they aren't attracted to them...but if they do exist they aren't exactly relevant.
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On May 30 2011 00:17 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2011 23:52 DoubleReed wrote:On May 29 2011 15:18 Ropid wrote:On May 29 2011 14:03 Bunnypanda wrote:On May 29 2011 13:42 ampson wrote:Well, that is honestly very sad. I wouldn't let myself be kidnapped without a pretty extreme fight though, I have a knife in my room somewhere.... But anyways, these kinds of camps ARE NOT legal and only exist because the terrible shit that they do is swept under the rug by the staff and the idiot parents who send their kids there. Anybody who has sent their kid to this terrible place for "behavioral modification" wouldn't admit their mistake or usually let their kids talk about it, and that is how they still exist. But now the place is being slapped with a shitton of lawsuits, so it won't exist for long. On May 28 2011 05:50 DisneylandSC wrote: Religion at its finest. Absolutely disgusting. The blame does not lie with religion, the blame lies with people who can not stand the idea of homosexuality and then use religion to justify their bigotry. I honestly doubt these people adhere at all to the book of mormon, or the 10 commandments for that matter. And I am sure that true Mormons, whose #1 value is FAMILY, would never let this happen to their children. On May 28 2011 05:23 SiPa wrote:America fuck yeah! Thank god this isnt happening in Germany nor Swizerland Messed up shit happens all over the world man, Germany and Switzerland aren't paradises of tolerance. The best any country's government can do is get rid of these things as they come, and the US is doing that. That you can even say that this is not the fault of religion is beyond me. These people are not even considered "nutjobs", these are just strictly religious people that believe their doctrine so badly that they are willing to put their children through hell if that hell offers them a way to not be gay. The sheer amount of kids that end up in these camps should tell you as much, they all have parents that think this is the way to go to cure "the gay". Are they all extreme nutjobs or are they just gullible people that believe in a religion that tells them not to like it? Mormons accept gay people now? No. Christianity thinks homosexuality is moral now? No. When these tidbits of hate change, only then will religion not be the problem. The fact is that the big underlying issue here is Religion. You can slice it all you want and blame the individual, but they are just sheep in a big mess of religious culture. I think you are confusing religion and culture. For example, socialists and communists once needed to fear for their life, which has nothing to do with the Bible, I guess. The Nazis had that idea of some pure race of blond, blue-eyed super-men, and were incarcerating and killing homosexual men, and the Nazis were also dreaming of eventually eradicating Christianity and replacing it with a religion of their own design. The USSR was promoting atheism as Christianity was seen as the root of all evil in the world or something like that, but at the same time, laws were introduced making homosexuality punishable. In my opinion, it is probably reversed: the culture of a society defines what is deemed anti-social and that changes religion. Nowadays, the Catholic Church has no problem with the theory of evolution, for example, because there is no way to argue against science. With the Bible being vague and open to interpretation, Christianity changes to not go against the consensus in questions like women's rights, divorce, abortion, etc. (some Churches faster than others). I have the gut feeling, battling against religion is probably harmful for changing society in such a way, that stuff like the story from the OP would not be possible anymore. This just pisses people off. You also do not want to only convince Mormons, to not send their children into those camps, but atheists, too. I could see some non-religious parents being at their wits end, thinking what they could do to change their delinquent kid, and being led to believe that the brain-washing in those weird camps works 100 % and the future for their kid will turn out to be a better, happier life. I think this is actually a really good point. Let's face it, the Bible says practically nothing about homosexuality whatsoever. It is not a significant part of it. And in fact it says nothing at all about lesbianism (and really there's no reason to believe that gender can be swapped like that in the Bible, especially considering it's about sex). Yet people destroy families, abuse children, and hate each other because of their interpretation of like two lines in the minor parts of the bible. Don't blame religion, blame people. Christianity is only anti-gay if the Christian wants it to be. No, that's a blatant lie or just plain ignorance. 'If a man has sex with a man in same way as with a woman, they have committed an abomination. They are certainly to be put to death.' While it is certainly true that most Christians deviate away from this, and certainly would not kill a homosexual, it merely is a testament to the fickleness of religion. Leviticus 18:22 (New International Version) 22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.
It's important to realize that the Bible reflects the time in which it was written, and while some Christians still follow the Bible word for word (often fundamentalists who use specific quotes out of context), the vast majority have taken a more figurative approach where the message, rather than the story is key.
The book of leviticus was meant to give guidelines to Israelites away from the pagan religions of Egypt. For a large part of the Christian faith, not all these rules apply today.
One purpose of religion is to support a code of ethics (to make better, kinder people). There is no justification for such demeaning and damaging treatment of children.
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On May 30 2011 05:10 Qaz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 00:17 Olinim wrote:On May 29 2011 23:52 DoubleReed wrote:On May 29 2011 15:18 Ropid wrote:On May 29 2011 14:03 Bunnypanda wrote:On May 29 2011 13:42 ampson wrote:Well, that is honestly very sad. I wouldn't let myself be kidnapped without a pretty extreme fight though, I have a knife in my room somewhere.... But anyways, these kinds of camps ARE NOT legal and only exist because the terrible shit that they do is swept under the rug by the staff and the idiot parents who send their kids there. Anybody who has sent their kid to this terrible place for "behavioral modification" wouldn't admit their mistake or usually let their kids talk about it, and that is how they still exist. But now the place is being slapped with a shitton of lawsuits, so it won't exist for long. On May 28 2011 05:50 DisneylandSC wrote: Religion at its finest. Absolutely disgusting. The blame does not lie with religion, the blame lies with people who can not stand the idea of homosexuality and then use religion to justify their bigotry. I honestly doubt these people adhere at all to the book of mormon, or the 10 commandments for that matter. And I am sure that true Mormons, whose #1 value is FAMILY, would never let this happen to their children. On May 28 2011 05:23 SiPa wrote:America fuck yeah! Thank god this isnt happening in Germany nor Swizerland Messed up shit happens all over the world man, Germany and Switzerland aren't paradises of tolerance. The best any country's government can do is get rid of these things as they come, and the US is doing that. That you can even say that this is not the fault of religion is beyond me. These people are not even considered "nutjobs", these are just strictly religious people that believe their doctrine so badly that they are willing to put their children through hell if that hell offers them a way to not be gay. The sheer amount of kids that end up in these camps should tell you as much, they all have parents that think this is the way to go to cure "the gay". Are they all extreme nutjobs or are they just gullible people that believe in a religion that tells them not to like it? Mormons accept gay people now? No. Christianity thinks homosexuality is moral now? No. When these tidbits of hate change, only then will religion not be the problem. The fact is that the big underlying issue here is Religion. You can slice it all you want and blame the individual, but they are just sheep in a big mess of religious culture. I think you are confusing religion and culture. For example, socialists and communists once needed to fear for their life, which has nothing to do with the Bible, I guess. The Nazis had that idea of some pure race of blond, blue-eyed super-men, and were incarcerating and killing homosexual men, and the Nazis were also dreaming of eventually eradicating Christianity and replacing it with a religion of their own design. The USSR was promoting atheism as Christianity was seen as the root of all evil in the world or something like that, but at the same time, laws were introduced making homosexuality punishable. In my opinion, it is probably reversed: the culture of a society defines what is deemed anti-social and that changes religion. Nowadays, the Catholic Church has no problem with the theory of evolution, for example, because there is no way to argue against science. With the Bible being vague and open to interpretation, Christianity changes to not go against the consensus in questions like women's rights, divorce, abortion, etc. (some Churches faster than others). I have the gut feeling, battling against religion is probably harmful for changing society in such a way, that stuff like the story from the OP would not be possible anymore. This just pisses people off. You also do not want to only convince Mormons, to not send their children into those camps, but atheists, too. I could see some non-religious parents being at their wits end, thinking what they could do to change their delinquent kid, and being led to believe that the brain-washing in those weird camps works 100 % and the future for their kid will turn out to be a better, happier life. I think this is actually a really good point. Let's face it, the Bible says practically nothing about homosexuality whatsoever. It is not a significant part of it. And in fact it says nothing at all about lesbianism (and really there's no reason to believe that gender can be swapped like that in the Bible, especially considering it's about sex). Yet people destroy families, abuse children, and hate each other because of their interpretation of like two lines in the minor parts of the bible. Don't blame religion, blame people. Christianity is only anti-gay if the Christian wants it to be. No, that's a blatant lie or just plain ignorance. 'If a man has sex with a man in same way as with a woman, they have committed an abomination. They are certainly to be put to death.' While it is certainly true that most Christians deviate away from this, and certainly would not kill a homosexual, it merely is a testament to the fickleness of religion. Leviticus 18:22 (New International Version) 22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable. It's important to realize that the Bible reflects the time in which it was written, and while some Christians still follow the Bible word for word (often fundamentalists who use specific quotes out of context), the vast majority have taken a more figurative approach where the message, rather than the story is key. The book of leviticus was meant to give guidelines to Israelites away from the pagan religions of Egypt. For a large part of the Christian faith, not all these rules apply today. One purpose of religion is to support a code of ethics (to make better, kinder people). There is no justification for such demeaning and damaging treatment of children. I acknowledged that in my post. I said most Christians deviate away from this due to shifting of the times.
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